E86. The problems with condensation with special guest Clarence from Ionic Constructions (Part 1)

As homes become more airtight, the need for proper ventilation has never been more important. In this episode, Frank and Amelia welcomed special guest Clarence Macalister from Ionic Construction to talk about the effects of condensation in homes and  explore how changes in building standards and energy efficiency measures are impacting indoor air quality, and what homeowners, designers, and builders need to know. 

Clarence discusses the increasing risk of mould, condensation, and poor air quality in modern homes and explains why ventilation systems will be the next major topic of conversation in the industry and how it's essential in maintaining a healthy living environment.

They also break down common misconceptions, such as the belief that air conditioning systems provide fresh air, and highlight the role of CO₂ levels as an indicator of indoor air quality. From understanding the impact of VOCs and humidity to practical solutions for improving airflow, this episode sheds light on the critical balance between airtight construction and proper ventilation.

Whether you're building a new home, renovating an existing one, or simply wanting to create a healthier living space, this conversation offers valuable insights and practical advice. Tune in to learn how to get ventilation right and ensure your home remains comfortable, energy-efficient, and safe for years to come.

About us
Prime Design is a building design company locally owned and operated in Tasmania since 2004.  Our goal is to share as much valuable information as possible about the process of building design, extensions, and more. We will talk about a different topic each week. To suggest a topic you would like us to talk about contact us at info@primedesigntas.com.au

Disclaimer
The information provided on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice, individual circumstances, or remedy. We strongly suggest you consult a qualified professional before taking any action based on the information provided in this podcast. The views, opinions, and information provided in this podcast are those of the hosts do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organisation, employer, or company. All content provided on this podcast is provided “as is” without warranty of any kind. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this podcast and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, or damages arising from its use. We reserve the right to change content or delete any information provided on this podcast at any time without prior notice.

Transcript

The problems with condensation with special guest Clarence from Ionic Construction (Part 1)

[INTRO] (0:08 - 0:24)

Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast, focused on providing valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We'll share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designer's perspective.

[Amelia] (0:26 - 0:53)

Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast. I'm your host Amelia and once again we're joined by Frank Geskus. 

[Frank]

Hey Amelia, how are we?

[Amelia]

Oh, pretty good for a Friday. 

[Frank]

We love Fridays. 

[Amelia]

We do love Fridays.

[Frank]

And we love having special guests. 

[Amelia]

We do. Welcome Clarence from Ionic Construction.

[Clarence] (0:54 - 0:55)

I'm special, am I?

[Amelia] (0:55 - 0:57)

Yeah, today you can be special.

[Clarence] (0:57 - 1:21)

I can be special today. 

[Frank]

You're our special guest. 

[Amelia]

Yeah, special guest.

[Clarence]
Thanks for having me and hopefully we can dispel a few myths about building design, condensation mould, building performance and the like and how that ties in with what the average person needs to be aware of when they're going down the path of building or renovating their home. Because there's a lot to it and it's an interesting area so hopefully we can get our teeth into it.

[Amelia] (1:21 - 1:26)

Definitely, you've done all the hard work for me. You've just introduced the topic and do you want a job?

[Clarence] (1:27 - 1:28)

I'm busy enough as it is actually.

[Amelia] (1:28 - 1:37)

I can imagine. I can imagine. So what sort of got you interested in the topic of condensation and all that sort of thing and having a healthy house?

[Clarence] (1:39 - 2:26)

Many years ago I had a career in science. I worked for the government for a short period of time as long as I could deal with the government and then got into construction. And look, it's interesting because I love my job and I love the challenges around the job and all the people I meet and all the things I learn.

And I suppose it's that background in science that drove that interest in understanding how things work. Working it out from the first principles as to what's actually happening instead of just reading a book and parroting off what's in the book to actually understand the first principles. It's been a very interesting journey because the science behind it is very interesting and I find if we take the time to sort of dismantle that and explain it that a lot of people can understand it to a pretty thorough level as long as we take the time to explain what those principles are.

[Amelia] (2:26 - 2:33)

And I guess you must have seen a problem in the industry in order to take a little bit of interest in this as well. Is that right?

[Clarence] (2:33 - 3:23)

I think there's a lot of hidden problems in the industry that people don't see. And waterproofing is one, condensation is another. There are a lot of these hidden things and part of the issue is when the building goes up and for the first three, five, seven years a lot of these problems can remain hidden.

And it takes that length of time often for these problems to manifest themselves and particularly manifest themselves in a way that is relevant or visible or problematic to the owners of the building. And the way we build these days, in an old building with a hardwood frame and no insulation and very well ventilated, a lot of these problems would not manifest themselves so quickly. But now that we're building with MDF and radiata pine and putting a lot more insulation in, the way that the building behaves is completely different.

So something that would have been not so visible in an old home is much more visible now.

[Amelia] (3:24 - 3:28)

Just simply because of the type of materials we're using and the type of construction.

[Clarence] (3:28 - 4:28)

The type of materials is a really big part of it and people would go down the average residential street and say, okay, well the house looked the same but if you start drilling down a little bit deeper into what's happening, part of it's the materials and the durability of materials. So 40 years ago a lot of Australia was using hardwood frames, maybe 50 years ago, but now it's all radiata pine. And if you took an MDF skirting to a job in the 70s they would have laughed at you and thrown it in the bin.

And now that's standard. And so part of it's the materials, another part is the design, so this business of not having eaves, having parapets, having box gutters, not having flashings and sills and weep holes etc, which has really happened in the last 25 years is another big thing. But the way the building actually performs from a building physics point of view is a huge change.

So the analogy I like to use, and it's a very common analogy with condensation, you take a cold can out of a fridge and put it on the counter, it gets condensation on it.

[Amelia] (4:28 - 4:29)

It does, yeah.

[Speaker 1] (4:29 - 5:06)

But what happens if you take a room temperature can and put the room temperature can, does it get condensation or not? 

[Frank]

No. 

[Clarence]

It doesn't. And so what's happening is the difference is we're separating our interior and exterior environments more and more and more. So if we have an interior and exterior environment with very minimal difference, we don't get the condensation. In the same way we have a room temperature can and take it out, no condensation.

The bigger that temperature difference, the more condensation. And what we're doing with our buildings is separating that internal and external environment more and more and more. And that's where we get more condensation and more problems, more moisture etc.

[Amelia] (5:06 - 5:09)

So why are we doing that? Why are we changing the conditions?

[Clarence] (5:10 - 5:54)

Well, and it's interesting because you can go through a building career and not take a step back and say, why are we actually building a building? And you think, why are we building a building? We're building a building to separate ourselves from the exterior environment.

And particularly in very hot or very cold climates, we want to do that more than what we would in a temperate climate. And so it's driven by human comfort. It's driven by policy.

And the regulations alone are saying as far as greenhouse gas reduction, we want to have more energy efficient homes. So as soon as we have more energy efficient homes, it means we have to separate that interior environment from the exterior environment with a greater difference between the two. And that's been the big driver.

[Frank] (5:54 - 6:14)

And the other challenge is too, you've got a country the size of Australia, so many different climates, just vastly different. Yet the construction techniques are very similar. In a lot of places is in the way we build is the same everywhere. It's like doing the same thing, expecting different result in a different area.

[Clarence] (6:14 - 6:32)

Exactly. You look at the vernacular construction and look at the Queenslander, which is from Queensland, low thermal mass, good ventilation, etc. And those sort of regional differences to a large degree have been lost because people see something on the internet or in a magazine and whether they're in Darwin or Hobart, that's what they want to build with no understanding.

[Frank] (6:32 - 6:33)

It just looks nice.

[Clarence] (6:33 - 7:03)

And that's what people want. And I think there is absolutely this mentality that they see it in a magazine. That looks nice and condensation, weatherproofing are an issue.

Another big one that's one of my pet things is the waterproofing of wet areas and glazing. And people say these houses full of glass and glass in the shower and glass in the shower and glass in the shower and think, gee, that's lovely. But don't realise the inherent problems associated with them.

And the only way to deal with inherent problems is to design and build appropriately, which means big dollars.

[Frank] (7:04 - 7:20)

Exactly. And there's plenty of wonderful pictures of wet areas, especially in the shower. I stayed in at an Airbnb.

There was one big sheet of glass looking at the view. There was a deck in front of me. Made sure the kid said, I'm in the shower.

Do not go walking around the deck. Because it didn't have a film on the thing.

[Amelia] (7:20 - 7:21)

Oh, no, not frosted.

[Frank] (7:21 - 7:22)

No, not frosted. No, it was clear.

[Amelia] (7:23 - 7:23)

Oh, wow.

[Frank] (7:23 - 7:41)

And the dunny was just behind you. So when you're on the tour, you've got the view as well. Like, there's no privacy.

No. But this is going to fail. I could see it because how the tiles were turned in.

There wasn't any fall on the sill. Water sat there the whole time. It's going to fail.

[Clarence] (7:42 - 8:20)

Yeah. And I think the other thing, too, if we look at historical design. I was speaking to one of the suppliers down here in the membrane space a few days ago.

And he said, we've had steep pictures with gable ends and overhanging eaves that have worked well for thousands of years. Thousands of years. Go back to ancient times, and that's what worked.

And now we have flat roof parapet walls, box gutters, flashing that comes out of a tube that's called silicon. And we go, surprise, surprise, we've got a problem. Well, we've got a problem because we're designing things completely differently to what historically has been designed for thousands of years.

[Frank] (8:21 - 9:04)

Yeah, exactly. And what frustrates me, because I've seen some circumstances recently where an old school builder has demanded, sorry, demanded. He asked the roofer to put in double flashings, because that's what he's used to.

In the end, he turned up on site, and he told them to quote it that way. Turned up on site, wasn't done. He said, I want it redone.

I'm not accepting this. And then they end up in this dirty great barney. Yet what the roofer, young fella, and nothing against young fellas, you've got to learn your trade.

But you've also got to listen to experienced people. There's a reason why you want it done a certain way. It's not always about the cost and the speed.

It's getting the quality right, and it's going to last the life of the building.

[Clarence] (9:05 - 10:25)

For sure. And I think if you look at the way we have built buildings in Australia, well, all of recent history, we expect one layer to do everything. 

[Frank]

Yes, we do.

[Clarence]
And if you look at something out of Europe, and you go to the construction manuals from Europe, it will have multiple layers doing multiple things. It's a very different way of construction. And part of what the challenge is, is for a roofer, historically roofing has been about keeping the rain out of the building.

But now there are a whole lot more performance requirements of a roof than just keeping the rain out of the building, as far as thermal, as far as condensation, as far as a whole bundle of other things. 

[Frank]

Bushfire

[Clarence]

Exactly right, bushfire. So what we're expecting of our building envelopes is very, very different. And one of the things that's come in recently, and I would argue that probably only 15% of the industry is around it, is the roof ventilation provisions. And these provisions largely are modelled on the British standard, British standard 5250. And to put it in a nutshell is that the flatter the roof, the more ventilation that's required.

And as soon as we require more ventilation, and we don't have eaves, and we have parapets and box gutters, and flat tray roofing as opposed to corrugated roofing, the complexity and cost of that design increases dramatically.

[Frank] (10:25 - 10:54)

And specifically when you're trying to get air change in the roof, you've got to put more vents in. 

[Clarence]

Yes. 

[Frank]

And where you can place those is very limited.

[Clarence]

Yes. 

[Frank]

And then you put it on the outside, it looks filthy. It doesn't give you a nice look.

[Clarence]

That's right. 

[Frank]

And then they don't do it. Or you try and do it via the inside, and that causes not only other problems, it's very difficult to do, incredibly difficult.

But then it doesn't get the airflow through the building properly anyway, because it's taken all twists and turns and all the rest of it.

[Clarence] (10:54 - 11:17)

No, that's right. There's a lot to consider in getting ventilation right, and it depends a lot on the building. And if you look historically, and you go through a suburb from the 1940s or 50s, they'll all be brick veneer, double brick, gable end, hip and valley, eave overhangs, et cetera.

And it was a very standard suite of construction methodologies and design methodologies we used.

[Frank] (11:17 - 11:19)

Occasionally you've got a nice butterflied roof.

[Clarence] (11:19 - 11:59)

Occasionally. In the 60s. And then come the 60s and 70s and we start getting butterfly roofs and no eaves and windows without flashings, et cetera, et cetera.

And it changes significantly. But the other side of that too is back in that period it would have been a particular method for this type of construction, a particular method for that type of construction. But these days the wild variety of construction types, methodologies, windows, claddings, flashings, detailing, it's exploded.

And you can't say there's a one size that fits brick veneer, one size that fits double brick, one size that fits lightweight clad construction. Because the lay of the land as far as variety of construction has changed hugely.

[Frank] (11:59 - 12:40)

And the other side of it is when something goes wrong, it could take five, 10, 20 years before that problem actually happens. 

[Amelia]

Manifests itself. 

[Frank]

Because it's in behind all the exterior or interior faces.

I did an insurance job recently, it was flood damage. Once they pulled the thing apart, there was a leak in one corner and there was black mould up in the top of the roof. And it looks like it's rotted out part of the pine framing and it's also rotted out the window sill.

But you couldn't have seen it because of the way they did the tiling and all the rest of it. It may not have been aware of this damage, you know, for maybe another five, 10 years. But it was rotting from the inside.

[Clarence] (12:40 - 14:13)

And look, I suppose there's a few points there. There was a very peculiar snowfall in Launceston about five years ago. And a colleague of mine who was doing a lot of insurance work went to a few places with flat roofs.

And flat roofs, which don't hold snow very well, collapsed. Or the ceilings collapsed from water ingress. And he said there was a surprising number of them with mould all through the ceiling and the people couldn't believe it.

And it takes something unusual for that problem to arise. And this is another really important point around the performance of buildings. Historically, water causes a lot of the damage.

And now there's this Canadian building physicist called Gus Handergood. And he says there are three problems. The three biggest problems in buildings are water, water and water.

And a huge amount of problems associated with water. Now historically, if we've had a problem with water, it's been coming in via wind-driven rain or a leak in a shower pipe, whatever, whatever. So it's liquid water that's either coming out of the sky as rain or somewhere in the plumbing.

But the big difference now is that we're sealing our houses up. And it's that water we generate inside the house that's creating a problem. So we're actually wrapping the houses sufficiently tight that that air can't escape.

And creating conditions within the envelope where the water can condense. So historically we've had liquid water. But now we're actually generating water inside the house.

And that's the game changer. So now I've got a third type of water, which is the vapour in the air. And it's been overlooked or not seen.

[Frank] (14:14 - 14:21)

I suppose it's that silent house destroyer. Because it's not just destroying the house. It could be destroying you as well from a health point of view.

[Clarence] (14:21 - 15:00)

Absolutely. Absolutely. And look, on my LinkedIn there's a link to a seminar in Melbourne a few years ago.

And this is the health people talking. Not the building people. The leaders in research in health saying one of the best ways Australia can deal with chronic health problems is to build houses better.

And they're saying that it's not a matter of spending more money on the health system. It's a matter of spending more money on building houses better. Because the cost of asthma, the cost of respiratory disease, the cost of all these chronic conditions associated with poor houses is something in the order of, don't quote me on this, $10 billion per year.

[Frank] (15:00 - 15:17)

I'd love to see how they quantify that. But I'd be surprised because every time we go to a reno or looking at a house, you'll see black stains on a frame. Was that there when they installed it? Was it a wet frame? Or was it developed over time? And how far is it going to develop if it wasn't opened up?

[Clarence] (15:18 - 15:52)

That's right. And if we're starting to go down this path of energy efficiency and basically build these little saunas where the humidity is getting to such a point inside the building that it's unhealthy, that's not a good thing. But as soon as the humidity goes up, a whole lot of other things happen.

The mould increases, the VOCs, the air quality, the carbon dioxide, et cetera, et cetera. There's a whole raft of things that go with the wrapping up of houses. And it's interesting because when you look at energy efficiency in one bucket at the national level as far as regulation and the building health, they're two completely separate buckets.

[Frank] (15:53 - 15:54)

And the bushfire.

[Clarence] (15:54 - 15:54)

And the bushfire.

[Frank] (15:54 - 15:57)

Because you add those three together and they fight each other.

[Clarence] (15:57 - 16:22)

Absolutely. Absolutely. And interestingly, on the bushfire point, there are three exemptions.

And I know I talk a bit about the roof ventilation because it's one of my little sort of pet projects, I suppose. But there are three exemptions in the National Construction Code for roof ventilation, two which make more or less sense, which is an insulated panel like a tin with a foam and then a tin on the opposite side as a roof system.

[Frank] (16:23 - 16:25)

Like the insular living type systems?

[Clarence] (16:25 - 16:39)

Well, like a Bondor, there used to be a brand called Ryotech. There's the cool room panels, more or less the insulated, structural insulated panels they're called. The other exemption is a concrete roof because on average something made out of concrete is more durable to moisture than timber.

[Frank] (16:40 - 16:48)

Makes sense. We do that with decks and we've had that. We refuse to do lightweight cement sheet decks anymore with membranes because every one of them fail.

[Clarence] (16:49 - 16:51)

Yeah. And coming back to decks, that's a big one.

[Frank] (16:51 - 17:04)

And that's why we only specify concrete now over a habitable space or over a garage. We'll only do concrete now with a membrane and it's fleshed correctly. We're just not doing the lightweight version anymore.

[Clarence] (17:04 - 17:34)

And look, there are ways to do the lightweight version. However, I would argue that in Australia, the knowledge out there in the industry to do them correctly is just not there. And that's not a criticism of the industry.

It's just there has not been a history of materials suppliers, waterproofers, specifiers, builders, the relevant people to do them correctly. And if you go to a European deck system and compare it to the way we have historically built tile decks in Australia, it is completely off the spectrum.

[Frank] (17:35 - 17:37)

Because it's piecemeal. It's not a system.

[Clarence] (17:38 - 18:17)

It's not a system. Yes. And that's an interesting one as far as the ventilation goes.

However, coming back to this issue with the bushfire, there is an exemption for bushfire flame zone rated roofs as far as ventilation is concerned. There is no good reason as far as building physics mould condensation is concerned. It is simply in the too hard basket.

It is. So you can build a roof that's a bushfire flame zone rated roof and put no ventilation in it and that will comply with the deemed to satisfy the National Construction Code. But the failure risk of that, it's going to rot and fall down possibly before a bushfire comes.

[Frank] (18:17 - 18:20)

Exactly. And not to mention, is it going to make the occupants ill?

[Clarence] (18:20 - 19:19)

Correct. Correct.

And it's interesting because in the National Construction Code there's the verification method which talks about mould within the wall system. And that doesn't necessarily relate to mould within the living area on the walls and the plasterboard ceiling, etc. But we've looked at several homes where there is no visible mould at all.

None at all. Not a skerrick of mould. The house is clean.

The house is well maintained. It's not like the people are living a sloppy, slovenly lifestyle. However, in some cases there will be mould that is absolutely off the chart as far as the recommended levels of mould for humans.

So just because there's not visible mould doesn't mean that there's not excessive and unhealthy levels of mould in a building. And all things being equal, if we've got mould in the walls or a building that's generating mould somewhere within it, then on average it's going to be less healthy for people to live in. On average.

[Frank] (19:19 - 19:54)

It's like a cancer, isn't it? You don't know you've got it until something happens. And then you've got to try and deal with it.

Same thing. You're tearing stuff apart. You're doing toxic things to get rid of something toxic.

You know, it's a brutal reality. And we're not trying to scare people here, but this is the reality that the regulatory authorities have allowed us to go down this track. They're pushing the thermal performance.

In Tasmania, we're staying on six star. And that's already hard enough to stop the condensation. New South Wales and I believe Victoria.

Did Queensland go to seven star?

[Clarence] (19:54 - 20:06)

Look, all I'll say is it's a patchwork, an ever-evolving patchwork at that. And how that's going to pan out in 2025, I don't know. And that's a whole other conversation in itself, the state variations as far as energy efficiency.

[Frank] (20:06 - 20:16)

But what they're allowing though, you go to a higher rating, it's harder and you don't have a provision to reduce condensation. It's going to increase the problem potentially.

[Clarence] (20:16 - 20:23)

That's right. And look, it's only in NCC 2022. I'm going through my head. 2022.

[Frank] (20:24 - 20:24)

Correct.

[Clarence] (20:24 - 20:42)

Only in NCC 2022, a provision regarding mould was actually introduced. And prior to 2019, prior to May 2019, you could build a house and it could be full of mould and condensation. And there was nothing in the building code to say that was a problem.

[Frank] (20:43 - 20:43)

Yes.

[Clarence] (20:43 - 20:45)

So it was possible to build a house.

[Frank] (20:45 - 20:47)

It's always been there, which has been crazy.

[Clarence] (20:47 - 20:54)

It's been documented. Only in the last five years that mould in a house has been seen as something that must be managed.

[Frank] (20:54 - 21:11)

So how do we manage it then? So if your mum's and dad's out there, they've got an existing home. They're not going to pull up stumps and go somewhere else, are they?

How do you manage potential mould that you don't know of? Or how do you combat, how do you change the way you operate your house, maybe?

[Clarence] (21:12 - 22:08)

And look, it's a very interesting and very complex area. And coming back to Amelia's first question, me being the sort of nerd and inquisitive person that I am, that's what got me into this. And it's a fascinating area.

And I have the very good fortune to deal with a lot of people like the people here, Frank and Amelia, and a whole lot of other people who are passionate about this. And so I've learned a heck of a lot. I suppose the first simple thing is appropriate design of the building.

That's the first thing. But the other really big thing is ventilation of the buildings. And there's an Australian standard 1668 ventilation of buildings.

And that's one of those things that most designers, builders, sort of, they're aware it's there but don't really pay much attention. And in my opinion, the ventilation of buildings is going to be the next big challenge for builders, designers, specifiers, homeowners to actually understand.

[Frank] (22:08 - 22:25)

Just so we're clear on the ventilation, are we talking living inside and operating your house to vent it, like opening your windows? Or are we talking about the ventilation through the walls, under floor, if it's a raised floor, roof? Which ventilation are we talking about?

[Clarence] (22:25 - 23:50)

So what happened in the National Construction Code, there are provisions for subfloor ventilation and roof ventilation. But 1668, as far as I'm aware, and I'm not pretending I'm an expert on it, but it's to do with the air quality and ventilation within the habitable envelope. And look, I've been going down this rabbit hole for years and I do not pretend to be an expert on 1668, not by any stretch.

However, I suppose the message I'm trying to, or the principle I'm trying to share is that the ventilation of that habitable area is going to become absolutely critical. And we ran a course a little while ago and Mark Dewsbury, who's been doing this research for many years, shows that as soon as we make our houses more airtight, that the problems with mould and condensation increase dramatically. And there's Michael Ambrose and his co-author Symes, I can't think of his first name, have done a lot of work with the CSIRO and the ATMA, the Air Tightening Testing Measuring Association, ATMA.

Air tightness people in Australia with Sean Maxwell have done a whole lot of testing and it's showing that we're getting houses progressively more and more airtight. And getting them airtight to a point where there is a very significant risk of air quality, mould, condensation, human health, all of the above, that all go hand in hand. And unless there is managed ventilation to do with that.

[Frank] (23:50 - 23:52)

Are you talking HRVs?

[Clarence] (23:52 - 24:09)

Well, it's got to be some sort of managed ventilation and this is... The mechanical system is one of the ways. Correct.

And again, I don't pretend to be the expert on 1668 or natural ventilation and maybe in another podcast get Mark Drewsbury or Sean Maxwell because they are very, very...

[Frank] (24:09 - 24:10)

That's our plan.

[Clarence] (24:10 - 24:57)

That's the plan. And this is the thing, there are a lot of very switched on people with a lot of knowledge. And even within the space of the building physics and building performance, I would suggest that even within there, there are people who are very, very good at particular things and know a lot about other things.

But even within there, there are specialists in whether it be mould and condensation, whether it be air quality, whether it be ventilation, whether it be membranes, whether it be hygrothermal modelling, whatever it might be. And I would like to see myself as one of the go-to people as far as looking at problems, but also finding practical on-site solutions from an actual construction point of view. But I have to know a lot about everything else, but do not pretend to be an expert either because it's a very complex area.

[Frank]

But you keep learning. 

[Clarence]

And look, the learning happens every day. The learning happens every day.

[Frank](24:57 - 25:03)

What I was coming back to previously is trying to think of simple solutions, but you're in a house already.

[Clarence] (25:03 - 25:03)

Yep.

[Frank] (25:03 - 25:04)

You're stuck.

[Clarence] (25:04 - 25:04)

Yep.

[Frank] (25:04 - 26:49)

Regardless of age, it's all different. One thing I've noticed, once people in Tasmania, we have quite an interesting climate. And during winter, we like to keep our U-Butte heat pumps or whatever else on the mainland calls AC, air conditioning units, reverse cycle.

We like them on 24-7 to keep the temperature nice in our homes. That means rarely do people open their windows to change the air. And I think there's this false sense of, hey, I've got my AC unit, whether it's a ceiling, floor mounted, these horrible looking plastic things off the wall that we have in our room here.

They think it brings in fresh air or cleans the air or does something like that. It does nothing other than heat and cool and gather dust in the inside and you've got to get it serviced. And I read somewhere that it's the more affluent homes where they keep the thing on 24-7.

They never open the windows. They never have air changes. And this is that critical thing, isn't it?

You need to get the dirty air out of your house. It's got the moisture, carbon dioxide. Everything else.

[Clarence]

Everything else. Lots of other things. 

[Frank]

Yeah, the smell of the dog and all that. You need to change it. And there's a minimum rate of change of air in your house that has to change on a regular basis. 

[Clarence]

Correct.

[Frank]

And you can only do that by opening your windows if you don't have any other mechanical means of doing it. I don't believe the average public and some people listening realise you're supposed to keep your windows open most of the time in your house to get the air in and out. Fresh air in, dirty air out. It naturally does it.

[Clarence](26:49 - 27:16)

And look, there are assumptions in the energy efficiency provisions around that sort of thing. Again, I don't pretend to be the expert. However, I'll steer back to something I can make a comment on.

So, as you mentioned, there's carbon dioxide, there's humidity, there's mould, there's the VOCs, there's whole parameters. 

[Frank]

Burnt curry. 

[Clarence]

Burnt curry. Well, curry technically is a VOC. It's a volatile organic compound. It is, and this is the interesting thing.

[Frank] (27:16 - 27:18)

You've seen me cook, haven't you?

[Clarence] (27:18 - 29:08)

No, but it's interesting because they talk about VOCs and there's all the VOCs that come off plasterboard and melamine and paints and whatever. 

[Frank]

Carpets, underlays. 

[Clarence]

But sometimes if you're cooking your Indian curry out the back, well, that's sending the VOCs through the roof.

But how do you differentiate? But anyway, we're diverging. But the interesting thing is that carbon dioxide will be a proxy measure for all the other things.

So the long and the short of it is when carbon dioxide is high, all the other bad things, on average, are high also. And so we're not going to go down the Greta Thunberg sort of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere sort of route. But measuring carbon dioxide in your building from a health point of view is a really good metric.

And I've said this to people before. You can buy a carbon dioxide monitor for $300 or $400. You can put that in your building.

And that does a few things. It gives you an understanding of how your building is actually performing because you might be sleepy or not feeling switched on. That's because the carbon dioxide has gone to 1,500 parts per million.

And in the National Construction Code, the maximum, it's, I believe, 850 parts per million averaged out over, I think, a 12-hour period. Now, fascinating, there's a colleague of mine, an architect, Ben Nitschke, and he and his daughter did a science project. And they did a whole lot of buildings, new buildings, old buildings, as part of their science project.

And the long and the short of it is the only way you could keep the bedrooms of these children within the requirements of the National Construction Code for temperature, the only way you could do that was by sealing them up to such a way that the carbon dioxide was getting two, three, four times what the recommended maximum was. And the only way you could keep the carbon dioxide down was by opening up the windows and doors and having the bedrooms sit at 10 degrees, well below what's required. And look what I say about that.

[Frank] (29:08 - 29:09)

One's fighting another.

[Clarence] (29:09 - 29:45)

One's fighting another. And it was his daughter who did this. And it's like a 12-year-old can work this stuff out.

And this is not complicated stuff. But the long and the short is that there is this fight between the two. A carbon dioxide meter is a really handy way to understand what's going on within your building and also know what different things do, what opening the window does, having opened a certain amount of time.

When we're talking about ventilation, the really big challenge is saying when do we need ventilation? And we need ventilation when the air quality is poor. 

[Frank]

How do you know?

[Clarence]

Well, one way is to get a meter. Now, the other thing…

[Frank] (29:45 - 29:49)

That's a great tip. I've never heard of that. I'll be honest. I've never heard of anyone doing that.

[Clarence] (29:49 – 30:30)

And look, when we run the courses, I put the carbon dioxide meter, and it's interesting. And if we're in a building which has mechanical ventilation, the carbon dioxide never gets excessive, but if we’re in an older building which has training room which doesn’t have openable windows and automatic sort of mechanical ventilation it will get to sort of ten or eleven in the morning and people will start to feel a bit drowsy and I’ll say how’s everyone feeling? 

Oh not feeling great and we’ll look at the carbon dioxide metre 1200, 1500 parts per million and I say let’s opening the windows, open the windows the carbon dioxide comes back down to 900 parts per million and people straight away feel that little bit of lift. 

And it’s interesting.. 

[Frank] (30:30 – 30:30)

Yeah, wow. 

[Clarence]  (30:30 – 31:37)

And this is giving that I suppose understanding of the environment that you’re working in and how you’re feeling and your health. But the other interesting thing, and it’s something I spend a lot of time thinking about is this challenge between air tightness, air quality and health. And we need to ventilate our buildings when the air quality is not good.  

And there are several brands out there, I won’t mention brands at the moment, but there are several brands where there are fans that will specifically turn on when the carbon dioxide or humidity is at a certain level.  So even if that’s just in your bathroom ok. That’s not going to deal with the whole house but at least it will turn on, I believe there are set points on there for carbon dioxide and carbon dioxide and humidity, once the carbon dioxide and humidity gets to a certain point the fans turn on and they keep running until it 

[Frank]

That’s cool! 

comes down below the threshold.  And look, the last one I looked at which I believe was distributed by Laros in ACT I think the fan was around six hundred bucks.  Now you look at a three in one bathroom fan unit, they’re about three hundred and fifty bucks, so ok it’s expensive 

[Frank] (31:37- 31:38)

They’re a piece of crap 

[Clarence]

Well 

[Amelia]

Mine doesn’t work 

[Frank]

They’re lucky to pull the steam out let alone anything else. 

[Amelia]

Yeah, it’s rubbish, yep 

[Frank] (31:44 – 31:47)

No offence IXL, sorry they don’t meet the grade. 

[Clarence] (31:37 – 32:34)

Look there’s a very interesting conversation around that as far as, and this is a fascinating insight into how industry works and I have the good fortune of working with a lot of good trades who are very fussy and know that I’m fussy and for about 18 months there’s been a provision in the national Construction Code (NCC) in certain climate zones, the cooler climate zones that if you have a bathroom without an openable window, and the majority of units in Melbourne would fall in this category, there’s thousands of them in Melbourne and South East of Australia, Hobart constructed every year what there must be, is there must be a fan that’s interlocked with a light switch and a run on timer, so if you into the bathroom, turn the fan on, turn the light on I beg your pardon, that the fan will turn on automatically and it will run on for 10 minutes after you exit the bathroom.

[Frank] (32:34- 32:38)

It’s my understanding that’s a requirement already? In all bathrooms 

[Clarence]

Correct. Ah it’s only in ones that don’t’ have an openable window. The long and the short of it is, without getting into the nuts and bolts, if you don’t have an openable window you must have a fan with a run on timer etcetera. That’s simplifying it. 

[Frank] (32:50 – 33:12)

Because at home I leave it running. I have my shower I leave it running, I leave the house, I turn it off, that could be 10-15, had my breakfast or whatever, it’s become a habit and I’ve taught everyone else, except my son to come back and turn it off before you leave. So then you’ve got as much moisture out as possible, out of your wet area. 

[Clarence] (33:12-32:28)

And so that is a requirement and so a few things there, you would that the manufacturers would say ok, let’s get on board with this, let’s get our three in one units which are fairly common around a lot of Australia and get those manufactured with a circuit in them so that it has a run on timer. 

[Frank] (32:28 – 33:59)

As designers we put two sets of fans in most bathrooms, and most builders insist on two sets of fans, you got your three in one because gee that was a revolution when that came out.  Heat lamps, awesome but now we’re finding that well we all know they couldn’t pull much air out so now we have a separate fan directly over the shower, interconnected and then they suck that out as well so you got twin fans, but that fan is a dedicated fan that triples the amount of air it pulls through.  

[Clarence] (33:39 – 34:13)

Yes. But then they need to have a run on timer and I did the research about six months ago to actually find some of these for a particular job, there was only one manufacturer making fans with a run on timer. One manufacturer. 

[Frank]

Bizarre isn’t it! 

[Clarence]

It’s extraordinary, and then there are two manufacturers and one makes a three in one with the run on timer but the run on timer is not interlocked with the light switch. 

[Frank]

Yeah, right. 

[Clarence]

So I’ve done a bit of homework 

[Frank]

Isn’t this stuff odd? 

[Clarence]

It’s peculiar 

[Frank] (34:32 - 34:47)

You look at all the equipment around us, is utterly amazing you know we’ve got our laptops we’ve got our sound board here and all this other technology and out TV’s and how things have changed even our phones, yet you can’t get a run on timer on a simple extraction fan on multiple different brands. 

[Clarence] (34:47 - 35:10)

Well, there’s a few but you’ve got to specifically ask. Now here’s the clincher on this is when you speak to the electricians about it, we don’t know about it, I don’t think the electricians know about it because the Australian standard AS3000, the Australian wiring standard, it’s not in the Australian wiring standard. So if it’s not in the Australian wiring standard as far as the electricians are concerned it doesn’t exist. 

[Frank]

Unless we specify it.  On the drawings if we specify it. 

[Clarence] (35:15 – 35:27)

Ah yes, part of the problem as you would know Frank as the designer is very often designers will put on the plan comply with clause whatever in the National Construction Code (NCC)

[Frank]

Unless you’re specific about what…you know, here’s a brand, this is what I want in there, it specifically has to be installed.

[Clarence]

Yes, yes

[Frank]

It doesn’t mean they take notice of it. 

[Clarence]

The other thing these days, if this was five years ago and someone had a bathroom full of mould and you’d complied with all the deemed to satisfy well, you’ve complied with the deemed to satisfy whereas now, if someone’s bathroom is full of mould and it doesn’t have the fan with the run on timer the first thing they’re going to say is who’s responsibility is it for not following the deemed to satisfy to have a run on timer, and that’s not in every bathroom but in a significant proportion it would be required.  

[Frank] (36:05 – 36:08)

We should point out that what deemed to satisfy actually means. 

[Clarence] (36:08 – 36:36)

Yeah and it’s interesting and when I’m doing the training make sure they understand so what happens in the national Construction Code and how I like to…and I’ll use a Lego analogy is you can follow instructions say or you can find an alternative solution, and so I say the deemed to satisfy is like going to the toy shop and getting a Lego packet that has the instructions and you follow the instructions and if you follow the instructions you’ve got your Lego set. 

[Frank]

It’s deemed to satisfy yeah. 

[Clarence] (36:37 – 37:05)

However, if you don’t want to do that you have to get Lego masters, brick man from Lego masters, someone who appropriately qualified to then design and build so if you can follow what’s in the national Construction Code (NCC) like basically go to the toy shop and get your Lego or if you want to do something that doesn’t fit that you’ve got to get someone appropriately qualified, like brick man to build or design or specify your system which is not as per the toyshop Lego.  

[Frank]

I’d love to get brick man in anyway

[Amelia]

That’s such a good analogy I like that one.  

[Frank]

That’s a great analogy 

[Amelia]

We need to use that 

[Frank]

Yeah, but it’s so true isn’t it, because…but we’re noticing more and more as designers we are coming across where we can’t find a deemed to satisfy solution 

[Clarence]

Yes

[Frank]

On plumbing, ventilation, all sorts of weird things and we have to explain to the customer, we got to go down the track of a performance solution. This is the expert we’re recommending to come up with that solution, you know and it’s becoming more and more and it’s a hidden cost but I think in a lot of cases it’s adding value to the project because you’re getting what I believe is a better outcome 

[Clarence] (37:50 – 38:00)

Oh look and the thing is the more that the standards get specifically detailed and more prescriptive the more likely…

[Frank] (38:00 – 38:03)

Isn’t that confusing on some of them? Like waterproofing? 

[Clarence]

Confusing, yeah this is right with the waterproofing here we have scenario where what’s set in the national construction code and what’s set in the Australian Standards 3740, 3740

[Frank]

I’m just impressed you remember all this stuff. Seriously. 

[Clarence]

I have it under my pillow at night time. 

[Frank]

Oh dude! 

[Amelia]

Oh wow! 

[Clarence]

Not every night but, and look part of the reason I’m interested in the waterproofing is because it’s another very interesting area and it’s another thing to do with water and when we talk about decks over habitable rooms you’ve got to have a good understanding of all the ins and outs of the building physics, the waterproofing of the ventilation etcetera and on that topic, and we’re going round in a very interesting securetist route, we’re covering a lot of ground and hopefully people are learning a thing or two. 

[Amelia]

We might wrap up part one there with Clarence from Ionic Construction but stay tuned because our very next episode will be part two with Clarence talking all about condensation. Thanks for listening to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast, we’ll catch you next time 

[OUTRO] (39:20 – 39:34)

You’re listening to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast.