Building Design, Prime Time
We are building designers from Prime Design. We created the Building Design, Prime Time podcast, to provide valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designer's perspective.
Building Design, Prime Time
E88. What is a Bushfire Attack Level (BAL) rating and how can it affect your home? with special guest Leanne Jordan
In this eye-opening episode of the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast, hosts Amelia and Frank are joined by special guest Leanne Jordan, a qualified Bushfire Practitioner, to unpack everything you need to know about Bushfire Attack Level (BAL) ratings and how they impact your build.
Whether you're planning a new home, an extension, or converting an existing building like a church into a residence, understanding BAL ratings is essential if you're in a bushfire-prone area. Leanne walks through what a BAL rating actually is, how it's determined, and why it's more than just a checkbox for council approvals. She explains the factors that influence a rating—from slope and vegetation type to the distance between your home and the nearest fuel source—and reveals how land management can help reduce your BAL rating over time.
Frank and Amelia discuss with Leanne the challenges of building in areas close to bushland, including how hazard management zones are calculated and what it takes to design a compliant home. From gravel-covered clear zones to strategic vegetation removal, this episode is packed with practical tips and expert advice to help you feel more informed, and a little less overwhelmed.
A must-listen for homeowners, designers, and builders alike!
About us
Prime Design is a building design company locally owned and operated in Tasmania since 2004. Our goal is to share as much valuable information as possible about the process of building design, extensions, and more. We will talk about a different topic each week. To suggest a topic you would like us to talk about contact us at info@primedesigntas.com.au
Disclaimer
The information provided on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice, individual circumstances, or remedy. We strongly suggest you consult a qualified professional before taking any action based on the information provided in this podcast. The views, opinions, and information provided in this podcast are those of the hosts do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organisation, employer, or company. All content provided on this podcast is provided “as is” without warranty of any kind. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this podcast and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, or damages arising from its use. We reserve the right to change content or delete any information provided on this podcast at any time without prior notice.
E88. What is a Bushfire Attack Level (BAL) rating and how can it affect your home? with special guest Leanne Jordan
[INTRO] (0:08 - 0:24)
Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast, focused on providing valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We'll share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designers perspective.
[Amelia] (0:36 - 0:42)
Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast. I'm your host Amelia and once again, we're joined by Frank Geskus.
[Frank] (0:42 - 0:43)
Hi Amelia.
[Amelia] (0:43 - 0:43)
Happy Friday.
[Frank] (0:44 - 0:45)
Happy Friday. We love Fridays.
[Amelia] (0:45 - 0:48)
We do love Fridays and we've got another special guest on today.
[Frank] (0:48 - 0:49)
We're getting a good run of this.
[Amelia] (0:50 - 1:00)
Yeah, we do. We're going to talk about bushfire with Leanne. Welcome.
[Leanne]
Thank you.
[Amelia]
So you're a bushfire assessor?
[Leanne]
Bushfire practitioner, yes.
[Amelia]
I didn't know that was the term.
[Frank] (1:00 - 1:01)
We're all practitioners.
[Amelia](1:01 - 1:02)
That's true.
[Frank] (1:02 - 1:03)
They come up with these fancy words.
[Amelia] (1:04 - 1:04)
They do.
[Frank] (1:04 - 1:04)
Yeah.
[Amelia] (1:05 - 1:26)
Yes. So Leanne, what sort of services does a bushfire practitioner provide?
[Leanne]
So I am a bushfire practitioner, as I said, and I go in and I assess properties that are in bushfire prone areas.
And in assessing the properties, we look at three main things, vegetation and access and water supply for firefighting purposes for bushfire.
[Amelia] (1:26 - 1:28)
Okay.
[Frank]
And what's over the back fence?
[Leanne] (1:28 - 2:11)
Anything that's within 100 metres from vegetation is fair game. Fair game. We have to look at, yeah.
[Amelia]
So how does that work? Does every block of land need to have a bushfire assessment?
[Leanne]
No, so only if it's in a bushfire prone area.
But if it is in a bushfire prone area, yes. If a bushfire assessment was done at subdivision stage, then potentially another one is not needed if they are building within the building area allocated at subdivision time. If it's a job that is not outside the footprint currently, they might be doing an extension that is not greater than 20 square metres.
Again, not needed. But generally speaking, if you're in a bushfire prone area and it's something new, then yes.
[Frank] (2:11 - 2:16)
Extension, sheds, carports, well, sheds and carports within six metres of the house.
[Leanne] (2:17 - 2:19)
Yeah. Any structure, even a pergola or pool deck.
[Amelia] (2:19 - 2:20)
Oh really.
[Leanne] (2:20 - 2:27)
They all come into it. Yep.
[Amelia]
Right
[Leanne]
So some clients get pulled up on not understanding that a pool deck might require a bushfire.
[Frank]
Yep.
[Amelia]
Hmm, interesting.
[Frank] (2:27 - 2:29)
Which seems weird, doesn't it?
[Amelia] (2:29 - 2:30)
It does seem a little bit weird.
[Frank] (2:31 - 2:32)
But it's still going to burn.
[Amelia] (2:32 - 2:38)
That's true.
[Leanne]
Yep, it's a structure and you're often adjoined to the house, so that's a great danger.
[Frank] (2:39 - 2:51)
Yep, and this is where, like I was saying, sheds and carports, where the regs say if you've got something under 36 square metres, pre-fabricated, all engineered, you don't need a permit except for plumbing.
[Amelia] (2:51 - 2:51)
Okay.
[Frank] (2:51 - 3:07)
But the problem is people aren't checking for bushfire or easements or building over a pipe or planning overlays. So we've spoken about that on another podcast, but bushfire, that's why we've got Leanne here. You might trigger a bushfire issue by being too close to your house, but just keep it six metres away, you're happy days.
[Leanne] (3:07 - 3:13)
Yep. Anything that's more than six metres that's not habitable, absolutely fine and no bushfire assessment needed.
[Frank] (3:13 - 3:19)
And even your pergola. I've had someone just had to fix up an illegal one. They put it up and it was within six metres of the house.
[Leanne] (3:19 - 3:20)
Yep.
[Frank] (3:20 - 3:23)
Yeah, that was a lot of pain. It costs more to get it sorted than it costs the pergola.
[Leanne] (3:23 - 3:24)
It can happen, yes.
[Frank] (3:24 - 3:25)
How ridiculous.
[Leanne] (3:25 - 3:25)
Yes.
[Frank] (3:26 - 3:29)
Now, if they knew this, they would have moved it a couple of metres.
[Leanne] (3:29 - 3:44)
Absolutely. And that's why it's worth getting bushfire involved, if you can, at an earlier stage, just to sort of, you know, look at those little things, tweak it slightly, and then you can either avoid it or accommodate it quite easily, rather than the pain later in life of having to go back.
[Frank] (3:44 - 3:54)
Well, it's always a pain. It's already a pain of a process already. Look, you know, it's tough.
We talk about how hard it is. Don't make it harder.
[Leanne]
That's it. Exactly.
[Frank]
Get the right advice at the start.
[Amelia] (3:54 - 4:22)
And one of the things that I didn't actually realise until I started working here is the properties surrounding your block, that can actually affect your bushfire. Is that right?
[Leanne]
Absolutely. So you don't have control over those blocks, but they certainly have an impact on you and what you build. So if they are within, you know, a certain distance, depending on the vegetation, and that varies according to the slope and vegetation, then absolutely, they will have an absolute impact on what you can or can't do on your block.
[Frank] (4:22 - 4:27)
So if someone doesn't maintain their land, you've got a problem.
[Amelia] (4:27 - 4:29)
Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it?
[Frank] (4:30 - 4:31)
No, it's a pain in the bum.
[Amelia] (4:31 - 4:31)
It would be a massive pain.
[Frank] (4:31 - 4:42)
It really is, because we've had some projects that have been really badly affected. You know, it's zoned right, everything's right, and you look next door and go, you are kidding me. And they don't do abatement notices anymore.
[Leanne] (4:42 - 4:44)
No, councillors have walked away from that.
[Frank] (4:44 - 4:57)
So just to know what that is, an abatement notice is a council orders you to clean your block to keep it safe. I remember having a block of land and I had to go clear it, make sure it was all happy days. No worries.
Makes common sense. It's been a good neighbour. So why have they stopped that?
[Leanne] (4:57 - 5:11)
I don't know. That's a council question. But I know that some councillors have walked away from not only abatement notices, but the Part 5 agreements.
So it comes then down to easements and trying to, you know, involve lawyers to get an easement on a property is quite challenging.
[Frank] (5:11 - 5:16)
Yeah, so we'll talk about those a little bit later too, because they drive us mad, Part 5 agreements.
[Amelia] (5:17 - 5:19)
Yes, we've spoken a little bit about those.
[Frank] (5:19 - 5:27)
A little bit, but in the context of bushfire, it's off its chops. But yeah, it's very painful.
[Leanne]
Challenging, yes.
[Frank]
Challenging. Oh, you just don't want to do it.
[Amelia] (5:27 - 5:57)
I actually want to start with a scenario.
[Frank]
Oh.
[Amelia]
Yeah. Okay. So if you're, say, one of the first houses in a subdivision, is that potentially going to have a different bushfire rating than, say, the 50th or the 100th house in that subdivision? Because obviously you're dealing with a lot more vacant block of land earlier on.
So with a subdivision, they are given a bushfire at subdivision time. So the minimum bail rating they're allowed to have to have a subdivision approved is a BAL 19.
[Amelia] (5:57 - 5:57)
Okay.
[Leanne] (5:57 - 6:25)
The problem is the legacy blocks left over from a subdivision prior to the requirement of getting a bushfire assessment done at subdivision stage. So there are lots, particularly around Launceston, that are a hangover from previous subdivisions that weren't assessed for bushfire at that subdivision stage. And so because they don't have that buffer zone around the subdivision, which is required now, some of the blocks within the subdivision are, in fact, flame zone.
[Frank] (6:25 - 6:25)
Can't build them.
[Leanne] (6:26 - 6:27)
You can't build them.
[Amelia]
Oh, wow.
[Frank] (6:27 - 6:37)
Just so everyone understands, in Tasmania, we can't build anything greater than BAL 29. We've spoken about this. Go on the big island on the mainland, I think almost every state you're allowed to go to a flame zone.
[Leanne] (6:37 - 6:40)
Yeah, I believe so. Don't quote me on that, but I believe so.
[Frank] (6:40 - 6:49)
Yeah, because I know in New South Wales, Victoria, definitely they do it, which is just wow. To be able to withstand a fire like that is amazing to design something like that.
[Leanne] (6:49 - 6:49)
Yeah.
[Frank] (6:49 - 7:29)
Tell you what…I'm not staying in there. It'd be like a Dutch oven in there.
[Leanne]
It would be frightening. Terrifying.
[Frank]
Terrifying. So the problem also with some of these subdivisions and the bail assessors that have been done, and it's great that they have, you know, call it the old school fire break, protection all the way around, that I actually think it's worse when you're doing stages and you're the last house on that stage, and they haven't, they might have even put the gravel base in, and I've had this argument, where we're the last house, and then it's just started on the construction.
[Amelia]
Yes.
[Frank]
The gravel's in, it's been stripped. And it was, I think, a couple I had up in Tamar Rise at Riverside, and I'm pretty sure they were up there in BAL 29s and the rest of them.
[Leanne] (7:29 - 7:29)
Yeah.
[Frank] (7:29 - 7:53)
And we ended up, a whole collective of us put a letter and document, all signed it, and we sent it down to CBOS and stuff. Says, this is ridiculous. This is what's happening.
Going to cost the client tens of thousands of dollars. And they came back, we can't change the process. It has to be completed.
For us to be able to allow you to go to a lesser one, the subdivision has to be completed.
[Amelia] (7:53 - 8:15)
Really?
[Leanne]
Because that's why they've sort of changed a little bit of the rules again, because that sort of thing was happening all the time. And now they have to show that with each stage that's released for a new subdivision, that buffer has to continue to grow with the growth of the stages.
But yeah, absolutely. Legacy subdivisions without it being managed and written in. Yeah.
[Frank] (8:15 - 8:28)
And you don't know what you're buying. Problems. Now, isn't this a classic?
The one thing about the podcast we keep banging on about, doing your research on buying vacant pieces of land. Because you could be buying one and the whole legacy, and you actually can't build on it.
[Leanne] (8:28 - 8:29)
That's right.
[Frank] (8:29 - 8:30)
Because of bushfire.
[Leanne] (8:30 - 8:30)
That's right.
[Frank] (8:30 - 8:44)
Amongst many other things, like the block may not suit your budget for the style of the house. There's a whole range of things, even overlays you're not aware of on that block. So there's so many elements, but bushfire is also, that's a showstopper.
[Leanne] (8:44 - 8:59)
Yeah. And it's really, really important that people who are buying blocks, go into that plan build Tasmania. It's a free website.
It's easy to use. And it shows you the layers. And if you've got that layer that says bushfire prone area, you need to think about bushfire and what that means early on.
[Frank] (8:59 - 9:00)
Yeah, totally.
[Leanne] (9:01 - 9:29)
Once you've got preliminary designs, you need to go and sort of engage a bushfire practitioner so that they can assess that what you're thinking is actually going to be buildable, where you want it on the block and in the way that you want it to build. Because you may want the house to be in a certain position to get a view, where from a bushfire perspective, that might mean that it's too close to a downslope because of the view. So you've really got to think about all of those sort of additional things that bushfire brings in.
[Frank] (9:29 - 9:38)
And it's the same for additions and extensions. It's exactly the same. You might be in a built up area, but you don't realise you're actually got a bushfire overlay.
[Leanne] (9:38 - 10:00)
Yes, that's right. Particularly, again, blocks that might back onto a farm or some grasslands behind them or a reserve. So even areas in Kings Meadows, where they back onto reserves that are quite in suburbia itself, it's still going to have an impact because not all reserves are fully maintained.
Some are, of course, but not all reserves are. So that still comes in too.
[Frank] (10:00 - 10:02)
I like to leave it el-natural.
[Amelia] (10:02 - 10:03)
Yes, exactly.
[Frank] (10:03 - 10:04)
I keep the cute furry animals.
[Amelia] (10:05 - 10:05)
Yeah.
[Frank] (10:05 - 10:07)
So they come and visit you in your backyard.
[Amelia] (10:07 - 10:10)
And the plant life and probably all of that too.
[Frank] (10:10 - 10:13)
Oh, yes, yes, yes. Like the blackberries. Beautiful native that.
[Amelia] (10:14 - 10:20)
Nice for eating. Or making jam. Very prickly.
[Frank] (10:19 - 10:20)
Oh, very prickly.
[Amelia] (10:20 - 11:48)
I think it would be really good maybe to list out for, just so listeners understand how a BAL rating, a bushfire attack level works and the different levels involved in that, because there is a little bit involved, isn't there?
[Leanne]
Yeah, so there's a few different levels. So the first one, the best one is a BAL low, which means you're basically in suburbia.
There's no real bushfire risk or it's very minimal. So you don't have to worry about particular building construction catering for bushfire. Then we move up to a BAL 12.5. Generally speaking, that might be something that's in a grassland sort of area that you can mow and easily maintain around it. You can be a little bit away from bush and forest, but you'll be a reasonable distance from those to that it doesn't really have an impact. But somewhere within 100 metres of your lot, there is some forest that might be unmanaged. And then you go into a BAL 19.
A BAL 19 means that you've got something reasonably close from a vegetation point of view, like shrublands or forest, but it's at a distance greater than is required to cause huge concern. So from a building and designing point of view, you're looking at things like having toughened glass, but not anything really impactful than that. But then once you get into a BAL 29, which is the last stage, we're allowed before we have to bring in fire engineers, you're talking shutters on windows, and a considerable additional cost for building products.
[Frank] (11:48 - 12:04)
Exactly, because all the products have to be certified to work at that. So it seems a lot of products are up to BAL 40.
[Leanne]
Correct, yeah.
[Frank]
And like we had that little pergola the other day. You're trying to get BAL 19, and we said, we can't do it. And said, look, we'll design the thing to BAL 40.
[Leanne] (12:04 - 12:05)
Yes.
[Frank] (12:05 - 12:07)
You did BAL 29. Yes. Happy days.
[Leanne] (12:07 - 12:18)
Yes. And that's the thing. Like if you can build something, you know, that's going to meet or exceed the bow requirements, everything's nice and sunny because, you know, it can still happen.
It still could go ahead. Client can still get what they want.
[Frank] (12:19 - 12:19)
Exactly.
[Leanne] (12:20 - 12:21)
Right products, right job.
[Frank] (12:21 - 12:22)
The products are a little bit more expensive.
[Leanne] (12:23 - 12:55)
Yes. Yeah. And that's where the cost comes in.
So that's where if you can accommodate by moving your construction project, whether it be an addition or a new dwelling, slightly like half a metre away or two or three metres, sometimes that can make quite an impact on the bottom line of your build project.
[Frank]
Oh, it's massive.
[Amelia]
Oh, really?
[Frank]
Oh yeah, it's huge.
[Leanne]
So that's where it's worth considering. Like, you know, we have jobs all the time that might come in as a BAL 29.
They might have to move it three metres, half a metre, and all of a sudden it's back to a BAL 19. And, you know, we're talking significant savings.
[Frank] (12:55 - 12:56)
Yeah, totally.
[Amelia] (12:56 - 12:58)
Wow. I didn't realise that.
[Frank] (12:58 - 13:37)
So you've got to be smart. And that brings in, you know, one of the things is bring a bushfire assessment in really early.
[Leanne]
Yes.
[Frank]
You know, we talk about the key elements. So if you know a bushfire, fire-prone zone, bring Leanne or any other consultants in to do it. No different.
We get a detailed survey really early because you need that too to understand the lay of the land so you can do it accurately, but also doing your soil test early.
[Leanne]
So that brings other issues.
[Frank]
Yeah, but see, as a designer, I want to look at what are going to be the roadblocks.
I want to sort out all the roadblocks before we actually start designing. If you can't put a wastewater system on or you can't meet the bushfire, what's the point of designing?
[Leanne] (13:37 - 13:42)
That's right. Because otherwise people sort of get too far into a project cost-wise and they still then can't manage it.
[Frank] (13:43 - 13:56)
Emotionally, it is so damaging and it's hard, you know, but sometimes we've had other stuff have been halfway down the track and there's been something came up that's got nothing to do with those. That was a council requirement or, you know, and it hasn’t been picked up. That's brutal.
[Leanne] (13:57 - 14:00)
And back in the day, you know, bushfire used to be part of planning. So bushfire was...
[Frank] (14:00 - 14:05)
Thank goodness it's not anymore. Those planners didn't have a freaking clue.
[Leanne] (14:05 - 14:18)
Well, the reason it was moved into building was so that, you know, there is someone that can check off and certify that, you know, bushfire requirements are met. So the building surveyors are our auditors, in effect, for our bushfire work. So, you know...
[Frank] (14:18 - 14:27)
It's the same for landslip. They had landslip hazard maps within the scheme and you had planners making calls on geotechnical advice.
[Amelia] (14:27 - 14:28)
That makes no sense at all.
[Frank] (14:28 - 14:31)
Same when the planners had to make calls on bushfire.
[Amelia] (14:31 - 14:32)
Yeah, right.
[Frank] (14:32 - 14:42)
I don't know which clown thought that was a good idea and nothing against planners. You're planners, but you're not experts in those fields and you shouldn't have to be put in that position to assess those things.
[Leanne] (14:42 - 14:53)
And that's where it does make full sense of it being within the building permit side of things. However, it then delays sometimes the engagement of bushfire.
[Frank]
Which is stupid.
[Leanne]
Which is the risk that...
[Frank] (14:53 - 14:53)
Do it at the beginnings.
[Leanne] (14:54 - 14:59)
Yes. So even though it's not required at planning, there is benefit in getting one in at that planning stage.
[Frank] (14:59 - 15:14)
Because it makes sense. Because that comment you made, move it three metres and I'm going to save you tens of thousands of dollars.
[Leanne]
Correct.
[Frank]
Oh, I've got to go back through planning.
[Leanne]
Who doesn't want to hear that?
[Frank]
But if you don't do it early and you realise, you're going back into planning approval.
[Leanne] (15:15 - 15:19)
Yes.
[Frank]
Because I've moved my house.
[Leanne]
Additional fees and more importantly, the time.
[Frank] (15:19 - 15:29)
Oh, the time. Yes. And we're lucky here.
You've got a 42-day mandatory time frame to get that sorted on residential. So wasting time is worth as much as the money, isn't it?
[Leanne] (15:30 - 18:29)
Absolutely. Well, time is money,
[Frank]
that's it. Totally.
[Amelia]
So let's talk about bushfire management plans. What sort of things often come up to maintain your property or just keep it safe in general from bushfires?
[Leanne]
So when we're doing a bushfire management plan, that will indicate exactly how much vegetation or area around your building project that you need to manage.
Sometimes that will might mean that you manage fully 20 metres around your dwelling, your proposed dwelling. And then for the next 20 metres, you might actually manage forest down to woodlands vegetation. And by doing that, you are stripping out the understory, you're managing it and mowing it and thinning out some of those trees.
So it's now woodlands, but you're allowing and accommodating for the bushfire and within your close vicinity of the block, but you're managing it to a level that is a better BAL rating. So it's all of those things that you can consider when you're doing. So you've got to think of access.
Access brings in things like how long is the access? So if it's less than 30 metres and you've got a fire hydrant out on your street, you don't have to worry about doing anything in particular for water supply, for firefighting or access. But if you live on rural blocks a bit further out, you may have a more than a 200 metre entrance, you're going to have to put in passing bays.
So additional width. So where a standard access road is five metres, four metres wide, and then half a metre either side for that for clearance. You've got to look at the trees around it, make sure the vegetation above it and beside it is also clear.
And then if it's greater than, like I said, the 200 metres, any section of the road is not allowed to be greater than 200 metres. However, if you then add on the layer where there's a right of way that you might be using and more than three properties are using that, then that whose passing bays have to be built every 100 metres. So there's additional costs that it may at the moment be only servicing two properties and you're going to be the third one.
So it's going to have that additional cost of passing bays, additional passing bays required within it. So it's all of those factors. So sometimes there might be a fire hydrant on your street and you would assume that that would be within range, but fire hydrants have to be within 120 metres to the furthest point as a hose lays.
So not as a crow flies, but as a hose lays to the furthest point of the building, it's only allowed to be a maximum of 120 metres. And if it's greater than that, you have to provide a fire tank on site, which again will trip people up. I've had people in Norwood and local suburban areas who've had to put in fire tanks because they may have a battle axe block or something that has a longer driveway and access and they back onto grasslands.
So therefore they've got to have additional water supply potentially. So depending on obviously the job and where it is, but yeah, there's all those additional things that people are not aware of that can come surprisingly back at them when you're accommodating, like I said, vegetation access and then water.
[Frank] (18:29 - 18:46)
It's interesting, you talk about the roads, it's also the standard of the gradient, but also the standard of the construction. So also the gradient has a big bearing on it as well.
[Leanne]
Yes.
[Frank]
But the purpose of these drives have got, what size fire truck has to be able to access it? I think it was a 20 tonne fire truck.
[Leanne] (18:46 - 19:03)
I think it is actually 20 tonne, yes. And it has to be able to accommodate, if it's greater than that 10 degree slope, that section of the road has to be sealed. And that unfortunately causes some problems come winter when it's not bushfire season.
[Frank]
Yep.
[Leanne]
So there's additional layers there that have to be considered.
[Frank] (19:03 - 19:16)
Yeah, and that's the thing people don't realise because if you're going to get a truck in there, you've got to be able to turn the truck on site.
[Leanne]
Correct.
[Frank]
And the driveway, road, wherever you want to look at it, has to be maintained and kept in a condition that can handle a fire truck.
[Leanne] (19:16 - 20:04)
That's right. And fire trucks, you know, the turning area, which is needed for a truck is 16 metres. If you're doing a T turning area, 16 metres by eight metres.
And each of those sections have got to be a minimum of four metres wide with your half a metre buffer either side. So it's considerable space that's required. So if you're in suburbia and up against that grasslands and you've had to put in a fire tank and then you have to accommodate the turning circle for a truck, it can be quite tight.
[Amelia]
And it's more than 10 degrees.
[Leanne]
That's right.
[Amelia]
It's going to add significant cost.
[Leanne]
So if you think of blocks like up at Blackstone, a lot of those have been greater than 10 degrees. And for significant distances too. So it's additional cost that if you're buying a block like that, it may have a spectacular view, but you do have to consider the additional cost that's going to bring.
[Frank] (20:04 - 20:06)
Well, potential spectacular cost.
[Leanne] (20:07 - 20:07)
Yes.
[Frank] (20:07 - 20:27)
Just before you even dig a hole in the ground. That's right. To build your house.
Mind you, you're going to get a concrete truck and a pump up there. That's the problem, isn't it? It is.
It's access. So the other thing with a bushfire management thing, and this is probably my biggest hang up personally, where you give them these plans and no one reads them.
[Leanne] (20:27 - 20:46)
The…
[Frank]
Owner.
[Leanne]
The owner. No, that's right.
So I actually have, you know, people come back to me later and sort of say, I'm not quite sure what this actually meant. And…
[Frank]
That's awesome.
[Leanne]
Well, it is good when they actually, but it's usually pointed out to them from someone else that they're failing to get occupancy for it.
[Frank]
I'm talking down.
[Leanne]
Oh, further when they're actually living in it.
[Frank] (20:46 - 21:05)
So you're living in it five years down the track and you don't actually, you haven't read any of the documents. You looked at the pretty plans. You didn't look at anything.
That's the most critical part of all this. If you want to protect your house or reduce the chance of it going up in smoke, you really need to pay attention to these management plans to manage everything around you.
[Leanne] (21:05 - 21:18)
That's right. And it includes storage of hazardous chemicals. And just even, you know, your fuels and your firewood stock.
So where are you keeping your firewood stack? Like, is it up against the house? Cause that's not where it should be.
[Frank] (21:18 - 21:19)
It's not a good idea, is it?
[Speaker 1] (21:19 - 21:41)
No. So you do have to consider all of those things. And that's where TFS (Tas Fire Service) actually have a really good bushfire safety guide.
And it has really good pictures and information on how to survive and what you can expect, how a bushfire spreads, what you need to do to actually be prepared. It takes down to what things you need to wear and pack and how to survive.
[Frank] (21:41 - 21:48)
Unless you've been in a bushfire, people don't realize how crazy this stuff is. Oh, yes. It is utterly terrifying.
[Leanne] (21:48 - 22:18)
Yes. And literally there are balls of fire that jump hundreds of meters. I've literally been in bushfires and, you know, it's terrifying.
And these balls of fire just come from nowhere, seemingly, and just start another fire on another front that you're just not necessarily expecting. But I mean, obviously, the firefighters are expecting that because they know that bushfires are erratic. And with the changing of the climate and the drier vegetation is...
[Frank] (22:18 - 22:20)
And the ground is so dry.
[Leanne] (22:20 - 22:23)
It has that bigger impact from that aspect. Yeah. So... Severities.
[Frank] (22:24 - 22:55)
Because this is where I struggle with people. People that own homes, there is a fair percentage that don't know how to maintain just the house themselves. How to operate the house for safe well-being, open the windows, fresh air.
It's just real basic stuff. Maintaining all your equipment inside the house as well. Heat pumps are designed to be cleaned and maintained.
Every other component of your house is designed to be maintained, cleaned. But then outside, it's the same. So you have to maintain around it.
[Leanne] (22:55 - 22:56)
That's right. Absolutely. It's very important.
[Frank] (22:57 - 23:19)
But a lot of people don't realise. And then they just think they go plant more stuff and they want to do a garden project and all the rest of this. And you're actually increasing the potential risk.
And people... And I suppose this is human nature. There's no risk.
I've never been in a bushfire. Or, hey, there's never been a bushfire here. Which is potentially in some places around Australia.
There's areas that have never had a bushfire. All you need is once.
[Leanne] (23:19 - 23:21)
That's right. And people soon remember it.
[Frank] (23:21 - 23:28)
And lose the lot. Yeah. Lose the lot.
And it's not to say that... Say, if you do maintain it in your house, it's a design, so it doesn't mean it's guaranteed it's going to survive.
[Leanne] (23:28 - 23:28)
Not at all.
[Frank] (23:28 - 23:32)
But it will have a higher chance and gives you more time to get out.
[Leanne] (23:32 - 24:43)
That's right. And that's the significant thing. That's the point of it.
I mean, it's meant to protect as much as it can, but it can only do so much. If you're maintaining yours, you've got a lot safer and better chance of holding on to what you've got there compared to the neighbour or the neighbour down the street that might not be managing theirs at all. So, if the bushfire’s is coming through, that will be the one that burns compared to the one that is well maintained.
And may have additional fire ember gutter guards, et cetera, et cetera, to stop all that sort of risk that additional risk. And just in talking about the fire risk of being... If you are caught out and you do have to stay on site, you know, should that be the only option, you know, one of the things that is important to remember is you need to be able to see out. Unlike when you're... If you're in a cyclone or a tornado, you're meant to go to sort of the centre or the strongest part.
You are meant to, in a bushfire, be able to see out. So, particularly if it's a grass fire, it's very rapid, it's very quick, watch it move. And then you know when it's safe.
There's always a lull before the final bit, but then you know when it's safe to leave. Where if you're in the middle of the house, you have no visibility of what's going on. So, that's something to remember.
[Amelia]
I never thought of that.
[Frank] (24:44 - 24:46)
No, and hopefully the windows have been designed so they don't explode in.
[Leanne] (24:46 - 24:50)
That's right, exactly. Because, I mean, they're all considerations and all factors.
[Frank] (24:50 - 24:59)
And that's what people don't realise BAL 19, we're going for toughened glass. And the pure reason is so the windows don't explode and go inside the house and the embers enter the house.
[Leanne] (24:59 - 25:08)
Yeah, and a lot of people get very upset that there's all these additional costs, but it is all in vain of trying to keep you safe.
[Frank]
Yes.
[Leanne]
You know, that's the purpose of it.
[Frank] (25:08 - 25:16)
Again, they haven't experienced it or been anywhere near a bushfire. You talk to anyone that's been anywhere near a bushfire, they get it.
[Leanne] (25:16 - 25:31)
Yes, I've had clients who have been literally in bushfires, significant bushfires, and they don't question it at all when I provide my assessment, where others who have never experienced are quite defensive and don't understand it. And why should I have to?
[Frank] (25:32 - 25:33)
Yeah, exactly. And we actually get a fair bit of that.
[Leanne] (25:34 - 25:38)
Bit of pushback. It's because it is additional costs, and I understand that, but it's a cost.
[Frank] (25:38 - 25:39)
Choose a better block.
[Leanne] (25:39 - 25:41)
Yeah, for a benefit.
[Frank] (25:42 - 25:52)
My favourite thing is like, there's still this dream of building this beautiful house in the middle of the forest, and you can literally open the window and touch a tree or tickle the local furry animal.
[Leanne] (25:52 - 25:53)
Long gone are those days.
[Frank] (25:54 - 26:29)
Yeah, big time, because your house is just going to get up and smoke. Because you see it elsewhere in the world, even our highlands aren't safe. The different climates we have in Tasmania, they're not safe, and we've just seen that recently.
That's right. The West Coast and the Southwest Coast, unbelievable. I never would have thought that would ever happen.
But you look all around the world, you've got these beautiful houses in forests and all that. And California has been a classic example, where they don't have what we have, except they've got all our trees.
[Leanne]
That's right.
[Frank]
Our trees have gone all around the world causing problems.
[Leanne] (26:29 - 26:43)
Once it starts in that suburbia, it just keeps going. So even though they might be in the middle of all that suburbia, once it starts on the edge and it's building momentum, it's going to cause considerable damage, and we could see that.
[Frank] (26:43 - 26:53)
Damage, death, or the ones in Canberra, the firestorms they had in Canberra, I think it was about 10, 12 years ago. That was one of the most insane things anyone's ever seen.
[Leanne] (26:53 - 27:04)
I know, and we've said this, but it is crazy. They are so extreme and severe and quick. And yeah, the impact is horrific.
[Frank] (27:05 - 27:09)
Quick. Yes. It's so fast, you don't have time to get out.
[Leanne] (27:09 - 27:14)
Because people think they're going to have time. And the problem is fires are exceptionally quick.
[Frank] (27:14 - 27:14)
Yeah.
[Leanne] (27:14 - 27:20)
And when they first start, they don't have that huge momentum. But as soon as they've got going, there is huge momentum.
[Frank] (27:21 - 27:23)
So, yeah. Sorry, scaring the crap out of you, I reckon.
[Amelia] (27:23 - 27:35)
That's it, I'm not building my house anymore.
[Frank]
Don’t worry we can design it…you’re fine!
[Leanne]
We can make sure you've got a big enough hazard management area around it to feel safe.
[Amelia]
I think there's enough room on there, hopefully.
[Frank] (27:36 - 27:37)
Yes, well, that's what people think.
[Amelia] (27:37 - 27:41)
Maybe the horses will have to eat all the grass to be able to clear it all first.
[Frank] (27:42 - 27:44)
Maybe. Lots of gravel around your house.
[Amelia] (27:44 - 27:48)
Lots of gravel. Just so you know, the boundary is about one and a half kilometres.
[Frank] (27:49 - 27:50)
Yeah, well, that's a lot of gravel.
[Amelia] (27:50 - 29:44)
That's a lot of gravel. Can a BAL rating change over time? And if so, what can homeowners do to mitigate the risk?
[Leanne]
So, yes, BAL ratings can change for the betterment or drop and be worse. So a BAL rating only stands for a particular project for the maximum of six years. So if you decided to build a house and then for some reason it hasn't been constructed within the six years, you need to get another one done, unfortunately.
Or if there was a subdivision BAL report done and you haven't built on the lot within the six years, you need to get another one done. So that's around that. But as you said, if you were in an area and your lot originally was not well managed and the previous owners had an assessment done and you've come in and you've managed a greater area, then again, you can reduce your BAL rating.
Simple things like reducing the forest, the understory, make it to woodlands, for example. So anything you can do for management can reduce a BAL rating. Conversely, if you're allowing things to grow up and what was previously managed is no longer managed, that can cause problems.
Particularly if it was a neighbour that was, one time it was a productive farm or that was well irrigated, et cetera, et cetera, and they maintained a firebreak and now the new owners have come on, that's no longer happening and it's not an official firebreak that was there, you can be in trouble as well. So yes, BAL ratings do change, but it depends on what's happening around.
[Amelia]
And I guess that's the same for an extension as well, not just a new build?
[Leanne]
Yes, so extensions and also a change of use. So properties that have change of use, they require BAL ratings. And they're considerably more challenging because they weren't originally constructed to be bushfire proof.
And so if they're in a bushfire prone area, they were maybe a church and then all of a sudden...
[Frank] (29:44 - 29:48)
Converting it to a house, we were just talking about a job we did a number of years ago.
[Leanne] (29:48 - 29:55)
It's challenging, it can be done, but it is more challenging because of how it was originally constructed, it's a lot of rework.
[Frank] (29:56 - 29:57)
That church was unbelievable that we did. Heritage listed.
[Amelia]
That was change of use?
[Frank] (29:59 - 30:05)
Change of use from church to a house and then it was heritage listed.
[Amelia] (30:05 -30:06)
Oh my goodness.
[Frank] (30:06 -30:11)
We didn't have access of the highway, didn't have road access and we got it all through.
[Amelia] (30:11-30:12)
Oh wow.
[Frank] (30:12 - 30:19)
Brand new access off highway one converted it to part house, could be all and heritage were happy because then that building gets maintained for the rest of its life and it's worth something and we got the bushfire to work.
I don't know if we'd get it to work now. I don't think I could actually get it through now under the change of regulations.
[Leanne] (30:30 - 30:33)
Yeah I'm not sure I'd have to go back and look at the specifics.
[Frank] (30:33 - 30:35)
That was very early in the bushfire. Assessment days and now I'll never get an access off a priority one road no way. It's just how things have evolved.
[Leanne] (30:45 - 30:46)
Yeah and it does it. Things change over time and presumably they have someone who has thought for the betterment but it just makes some things far more challenging.
[Frank] (30:55 - 31:18)
Oh without a doubt. So how do you see going forward because you've been doing this for a while now? How do you see the bushfire assessment and also working with Tas Fire? Because you have to work with them because of unique situations. We spoke quite a number of unique ones, projects, curly ones we’ve thrown you. Do you know if things are going to change in the future or thinking?
[Leanne] (31:18 - 31:40)
It's difficult to say. I mean TFS are the experts in this field clearly and you know I have a good rapport and a good working relationship with TFS and I always find it's very effective to be forward thinking and go on the forward foot to them. If there's something that is a little bit left of field go and have a conversation with the TFS and work towards a solution together.
[Frank] (31:40 - 31:45)
Which might be engaging an expert in to do a performance solution.
[Leanne] (31:45 - 32:19)
Correct and very often that may be the case if we can't find something that is a deemed to satisfy a solution which is what a bushfire practitioner can approve then we can engage a fire engineer and TFS will even give guidance towards the fire engineer of what sort of things that their expectations are that they need to cover. So then the fire engineer needs to come up with those solutions.
So there is definitely nice, if you can have good collaboration and you get the right parties involved then you can address a number of curly issues which is makes that block, the rules etc etc.
[Frank] (32:19 - 32:23)
But everyone's got to realise that is a huge increase in time, cost.
[Leanne] (32:23 - 32:24)
And cost, yeah.
[Frank] (32:24 - 32:30)
And your expectations may not be met so be prepared.
[Leanne] (32:30 - 32:31)
Exactly. So it can't always be there are jobs that I've done that we've just had to pull the pin on and say this is flame zone, there is no solution around this.
And unfortunately, sometimes that is the case. But generally speaking if we can find a solution we will do our best to find a solution.
[Frank](32:49 - 33:25)
And that goes for all the consultants everywhere, it's a bit like waste water and stuff where you've got an existing block, it's only got seven hundred square metres and you want to put a big ass house on there and you cannot physically put the waste water system that is required to operate safely and have a reserve area.
So there's limitations to everyone's conditions because we've got all this legacy stuff, old titles, old blocks, older houses, things have changed around or things have gone into commercial because we haven't even touched on commercial.
[Leanne] (33:25 - 33:26)
No.
[Frank] (33:26 - 33:34)
And that's a different, like we do a lot of commercial work and we get you involved in some of those. And they're vastly different.
[Leanne] (33:34 - 33:35)
Yes they are.
[Frank] (33:35 - 33:38)
It's like fuel stops, how many fuel stops have we had you working on?
[Leanne] (33:38 - 33:41)
After all a couple of them now, two or three and they're all different and they've all got different things because I mean that brings into a planning perspective again rather than building because it has issues then there's the other jobs that you have with your vulnerable use and you've got to think about the additional needs that they have from a bushfire perspective.
So and anything that has that we haven't sort of probably touched on even the visitor accommodation stuff where you have to get,
[Amelia]
That is a good point,
[Leanne]
emergency plans.
[Frank] (34:04 - 34:06)
Yeah emergency plans but also your limits in nature.
[Leanne] (34:06 - 34:17)
That's right, if you are in an area that has is under the Tasmanian Planning Scheme you cannot build greater than a 12.5. if it has a higher rating than a 12.5 it’s a no go for visitor accommodation.
[Frank] (34:17 - 34:23)
And I had this with someone he said I can do a performance I can do this and I said no…dude Why did you buy this?
[Leanne]
Yeah for that purpose.
[Frank] (34:25 - 34:34)
If that's what you want to do. Oh we can push it through, there's a legal way, and I says I'm sorry, it's very clear. This one's black and white. You've got the wrong idea.
[Leanne] (34:34 - 34:43)
That's right. Where back in the day, you know earlier on you could have a visitor accommodation to a BAL 29, that was allowed but not anymore.
[Frank](34:43 - 34:46)
But when you think about it…It's really foolish.
[Leanne] (34:46 - 34:49)
Well it is because the whole point was that it was wound back to be a 12.5 because the people in there, they're not necessarily local, they don't know where the roads are, how to get out, in a safe manner.
[Frank](34:55 - 34:56)
when get out.
[Leanne] (34:56 - 35:03)
Exactly and they’re not necessarily even in tune with the ABC and what's the radio station you know details for that.
[Frank](35:03 - 35:05)
On the phone apps, all this stuff.
[Leanne] (35:05 - 35:06)
Exactly.
[Frank](35:06 - 35:10)
And whether I can actually understand English well.
[Leanne] (35:10 - 35:23)
Absolutely and I mean also whether they've got a disability, something you know with wheelchair access as well. There's lots of you know beautiful places out there with wheelchair access in bushfire prone areas and it's all considerations that you have to you know take into account.
[Frank] (35:23 - 35:25)
How fast can you get out?
[Leanne] (35:25 - 35:26)
That's right.
[Amelia] (35:26 - 35:27)
Exactly right.
[Frank](35:27 - 35:36)
And even in the funny thing is, I shouldn’t say funny because it's terrible but once you get out of your property who's to say you can get out of the area?
[Leanne] (35:36 - 35:37)
Correct.
[Frank](35:37 - 35:43)
That's the crazy thing, these fires, like the one just down in Zeehan recently. How long was the front on that thing? It was ridiculous.
[Leanne] (35:43 - 35:47)
Yes it was, I don't know the exact but I know it was long.
[Frank](35:47- 35:48)
Because it's still smouldering now.
[Leanne] (35:48 - 35:49)
That's right.
[Frank](35:49 - 35:50)
They’re still struggling to put it all out. It was…
[Leanne] (35:50 - 35:51)
Yeah.
[Frank] (35:51 - 35:52)
It was absolutely ginormous
[Leanne] (35:52 - 36:18)
It was. And the smoke, the smoke has a greater impact than people realise as well. So smoke inhibits you know breathing of course but also visibility and people get disorientated quite easily with you know the significant amount of smoke these big bushfires bring. A lot of people sort of assume that they're going to be quite small but when they're big they're big and along comes that amount of smoke with it and it does make things much more challenging.
[Frank] (36:16 - 36:18)
And you cannot see two foot in front of you.
[Leanne] (36:18 - 36:19)
Exactly.
[Frank] (36:19 - 36:24)
You cannot see the problems you stop, you're then vulnerable it’s a catch 22.
[Leanne] (36:24 - 36:42)
That's right. And it is. You've got to sort of really got to know if you're going into areas you know for bushfire prone in a bushfire season like you know in those months from October through to April or from September through to April they're the times that you've got to consider those risk factors you know if you're going into those areas.
[Frank] (36:42 - 36:45)
Yes and we have a lot of tourists here and they don't get it.
[Leanne] (36:45 - 36:46)
No.
[Frank] (36:47 - 36:48)
And not what would they?
[Leanne] (36:48 – 37:00)
Yeah. But we have a lot of grasslands even in you know sort of and grass fires move quickly and rapidly but it's still going to have a huge impact if you're stuck somewhere and you don't know how to get out and where to go.
[Frank] (37:00 - 37:01,180
Exactly.
[Leanne] (37:01 - 37:04)
If you're turning in the wrong way to escape because that's the way you came in.
[Frank] (37:04 - 37:10)
Just because the GPS told you. Yes and the GPS is always right?
[Leanne] (37:10 - 37:11)
Absolutely.
[Frank] (37:11 - 37:13)
Especially in Melbourne. Oh man.
[Leanne] (37:13 - 37:16)
Yes. Can cause problems.
[Frank] (37:16 - 37:17)
Wrong way up the freeway.
[Amelia] (37:17 - 37:18)
Oh don't do that.
[Frank] (37:18 - 37:24)
No I didn't just going on the freeway and back off the freeway.
[Leanne] (37:24 - 37:34)
But it will also sometimes they go this way and then it will say get off your bike and walk through this little bit and then jump back on, and it's like I'm in a car.
[Frank] (37:34 - 37:38)
Yes. It's a strange world.
[Leanne] (37:38 - 37:39)
Yes.
[Amelia] (37:39 - 37:46)
So what advice would you give to home owners who are unsure about the risks on their property?
[Leanne] (37:46 - 38:38)
I'd just say to think about what you want on your block. Have a look initially on your the plan build Tasmania website to see whether it's got a bushfire prone area and then consider what things that you need to consider for bushfire. So like I said I'll push you back to the TFS website. It's got great brochures and information on there on what to do for bushfires, what sort of things you need to provide and think about. And then when you're getting your designers involved earlier in planning stage, think about getting the bushfire engaged earlier. Even though it's not needed until building stage, it's valuable because you can look at moving the proposed dwelling slightly to have an impact or you know if you move the house a bit further forward, maybe that fire hydrant can reach and you don't have to put a tank on the lot etc etc. So there's lots of things that can be changed if they're engaged early enough.
[Amelia] (38:38 - 38:54)
Actually I want to finish up just talking to you Frank about the types of materials that can be used for different BAL ratings. Do you have some examples of some of those that you could possibly use? For example, just you know generic products.
[Frank] (38:54 - 38:59)
Well wall cladding roof deck subfloor windows.
[Amelia] (38:59 - 39:00)
Let's start with the exterior.
[Frank] (39:00 - 39:02)
Oh well windows. Windows have to be designed to suit the BAL ratings. So the rubber seals are the most critical part of that. You know and then we get the BAL 19, toughened glass, you get higher, you got to put shutters on it to protect it because there's no way they're going to be able to handle it.
Wall claddings, well brick veneer. That's still my favourite in this situation. It's great. So where it falls over it's a little holes in the bottom to get it to breathe the weep holes.
So then we've got to put mesh in there, the ember mesh because you can't have any aperture greater than three square millimetres.
[Leanne] (39:35 - 39:36)
Yep.
[Frank] (39:36 - 40:20)
Yep. Tiny. And the building still got a breath really well. So then bricks are great and they handle a fair bit. It's only as good as how well it's sealed and we've already spoken how much sealing you're building to well with so it can’t breath causes other problems with condensation.
So we're fighting against each other. We've spoken about this. Bushfire regs can fight against the condensation and make the building breathe be healthy. So it has to be real clever how we design it.
Then you go to your gutters, so Colorbond, you know, that's the standard stuff we use everywhere. But it's how the roof sheeting is fixed down. So embers cargo in the gutter and blow up inside because when there's bushfire a fair breeze going on, isn't it?
[Leanne] (40:20 - 40:25)
Absolutely. And embers get in the most minute spaces.
[Frank] (40:25 - 40:26)
Yep.
[Leanne] (40:26 - 40:27)
And once they're in,
[Frank]
They're in.
[Leanne] (40:27 - 40:28)
It starts.
[Frank] (40:28 – 41:10)
Yep, and then the wind is firing them up so they're getting into the roof. And that's why the roof's are really tight compared to how they used to be. Eaves, you know, these have to be fixed, so they can't blow, you know. Sometimes you see the old houses, they're just sitting there. They're fine.
So then with the lightweight cladding, you know, you've got everyone from James Hardy, CSR, Weathertex, they're all their products, upwards of BAL 29 to BAL 40. And there's a heap of other manufacturers out there, there's polystyrene and they can handle BAL 40s. But you've got to make sure it has the rating on there. You know, you use Colorbond steel, you know, various different versions of those. Again, the flashings are the really important part to make sure there's no gaps.
[Amelia] (41:10 - 41:11)
Okay.
[Frank] (41:11 - 41:42)
Hardwood weather boards are actually still pretty good. I think they go to BAL 20, 19, isn't it?
[Leanne]
Yeah I’m not sure
[Frank]
Hardwood weather boards.
[Leanne] (41:19 - 41:21)
Hardwood, yeah.
[Frank] (41:21 - 41:26)
Because we just had a job a while ago, we had to go to spotted gum for the weather boards or cement sheet ones.
And that's hard on old, you do a traditional look house. Decks are the biggest challenge I find in a lot of ways, because then you go to all these really exotic timbers or you go to these plastic hybrids, you know.
[Leanne] (41:42 - 41:43)
And they go up to BAL 40 some of those.
[Frank] (41:43 - 41:44)
Yeah, they're awesome.
[Amelia] (41:44 - 41:45)
Wow.
[Frank](41:45 - 41:52)
But one thing, middle of summer, you're not walking out there in your bare feet, they get hot, you could fry an egg on these things.
[Leanne] (41:52 - 41:53)
That's right.
[Frank] (41:54 - 41:57)
It’s crazy how much heat they hold. It's like black concrete out the front of your house, you know.
[Leanne] (41:57 - 41:58)
That's it.
[Frank] (41:58 – 42:09)
It's bonkers. So then what actually holds it underneath is then has to change as well. So BAL 12.5 and 19, we can go to standard treated pine
[Leanne] (42:09 - 42:12)
Yeah. And you can do straw bale houses up to BAL 19.
[Frank] (42:12 - 42:15)
Oh yeah. Yeah, straw bale. Yeah, I love straw bale.
[Amelia] (42:15 - 42:17)
Yeah interesting? I didn't realise that.
[Leanne] (42:17 - 42:18)
But nothing higher than a 19.
[Amelia] (42:18 - 42:21)
Yes. Well, that makes sense. It would burn pretty easily.
[Frank](42:21 - 42:28)
No, they don't. They char. They char. Because straw bales have to be made, especially so they're super dense.
[Leanne] (42:28 - 42:29)
They stop the air.
[Frank] (42:29 - 42:30)
Yeah.
[Leanne] (42:30 - 42:31)
Yeah.
[Frank] (42:31 - 42:44)
They just char on the outside, but you put a pretty mean render on them. You know the old chook wire you put that on and have a mud throwing competition.
There’s a guy know on the mainland. He's building straw bale panels.
[Leanne] (42:44 - 42:45)
Oh.
[Frank] (42:45 - 42:47)
And he's getting them tested by CSIRO.
[Leanne] (42:47 - 42:48)
Yeah, right.
[Frank] (42:48 - 42:49)
And up to BAL 40.
[Amelia] (42:49 - 42:50)
Oh, wow.
[Frank] (42:50 - 42:52)
So they all come pre-rendered and slotted all together.
[Amelia] (42:52 - 42:54)
That's cool. Very innovative.
[Frank] (42:54 – 43:05)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It cost a fortune to get all that testing done. Have you ever seen, sorry, I'm going to digress…Seen the testing for fire on windows.
[Leanne] (43:05 - 43:07)
I don't know what I have actually.
[Frank] (43:07 - 43:30)
No, there was some we did through the BDAA. We did some, one of the window manufacturers showed us and saw this massive machine, which has all this heat coming off it. And they roll it closer to the window and then they video it and measure it. And they take it to the absolute extreme and how much time. I think it's the CSIRO I'm not sure it could be incorrect on that, I mean and it's a wild-looking experiment.
[Amelia] (43:30 - 43:31)
Wow.
[Frank] (43:31 - 43:36)
It's like instant destruction of a window and frame and rubbers and all that.
[Leanne] (43:36 - 43:37)
Yeah.
[Frank] (43:37 - 43:40)
It is wild.
[Leanne] (43:40 - 43:41)
I have seen that but yeah
[Frank] (43:41 - 43:43)
It's absolutely wild how they test this stuff and that’s only one test.
[Leanne] 00:43:43 - 43:52)
But it has to be that rigorous because they need to know that that is going to sustain and whatever heat flux, that fire was going to bring.
[Frank] (43:52 - 43:57)
Yeah, exactly. Other claddings, you look at your roof. Okay, Colorbond pretty simple.
[Amelia] (43:57 - 43:58)
Yes.
[Frank] (43:58 – 44:03)
Tiles. So with tiles, you can still do it their wonderful, but then you still have to put a sisalation in behind that.
[Amelia] (44:03 - 44:04)
Yes.
[Frank] (44:04 - 44:10)
To make sure the embers don't get in. So then you've got to seal that up so embers can't get in there, either into that roof space.
[Amelia] (44:10 - 44:15)
So sometimes it's not just the materials, but the application or the...
[Frank] (44:15 - 44:16)
And what's underneath it?
[Amelia] (44:16 - 44:17)
What's underneath, yeah interesting.
[Frank] (44:17 - 44:50)
You know, It's a fascinating setup. You know, we get new products coming across in the American European products, but they haven't been tested. Everyone's getting wiser to this is that we have to have the document-approved. This product has been tested in Australia. And New Zealand for our conditions, because we're all very similar in a lot of ways we do stuff.
Yeah, but imagine doing bushfire up on the coast, you know, up against breaking surf. So you've got high corrosion, bushfire, thermal requirements.
[Amelia] (44:50 - 44:52)
Even wastewater, that might be challenge.
[Frank] (44:52 – 45:00)
Yeah, but all these things coming together on your house, and it's really hard. And you've got to maintain it to make sure it stays good.
[Leanne] (45:00 - 45:01)
That's right.
[Frank] (45:01 - 45:02)
And the life of the house.
[Leanne] (45:02 - 45:07)
That's right, because, you know, if you've got corrosion coming in, as well and you’ve used metal, you know, you've got to...factor in everything
[Frank] (45:07 - 45:12)
You've got to use special metal, or now their saying you've got to use stainless. Ouch!
[Leanne] (45:12 - 45:14)
Exactly, It’s high expense.
[Frank] 00:45:15 - 45:17)
It's high expense. Amazing, or aluminium.
[Leanne) (45:17 - 45:18)
Yeah.
[Frank] (45:18 - 45:22)
Yeah, so, it's a...We actually worked on a shed out George Town that had stainless on it.
[Leanne] (45:22 - 45:23)
Wow.
[Frank] (45:23 - 45:25)
Everything else went to crap, but...
[Leanne] (45:25 - 45:26)
But the stainless looked great.
[Amelia] (45:26 - 45:27)
The stainless bits would look good
[Frank] (45:27 - 45:28)
Yeah, and aluminium, yeah.
[Amelia] 45:28 - 45:29)
Wow.
[Frank] (45:29 - 45:39)
It was wild. So, there's lots of products we've got to look at. It's interesting you look at the roller doors and panel lifts. You know, are they BAL rated?
[Leanne] (45:39 - 45:44)
Yeah, I don't have to actually look at that because...Yeah, it's all about the gaps.
[Frank] (45:44 – 46:02)
It's about the gaps? Yeah, and the seals in the gaps, can they handle them? It's an interesting one, isn't it? Yeah, skylights that you put in. You have to meet those requirements.
Even when your fan, your extraction fan out of your bathrooms, the kitchen. It has to go through the ember mesh. So, that makes it hard work for the fans...
[Leanne] (46:02 - 46:03)
Yes.
[Frank] (46:03 - 46:06)
To push through because it blocks so much, because it's such a fine mesh.
[Amelia] (46:06 - 46:07)
Yes
[Frank] (46:07 - 46:08)
A lot of things don't realise.
[Amelia] (46:08 - 46:09)
Yeah.
[Frank] (46:09 - 46:11)
And, because that's plastic, it's going to melt them.
[Leanne] (46:11 - 46:12)
That's right.
[Frank] (46:12 - 46:16)
So, then you've got to put a metal grill on. Even if you’ve got fly screens
[Leanne] (46:16 - 46:17)
Absolutely.
[Frank] (46:17 - 46:19)
You've got to put metal flyscreens as opposed to the plastic ones.
[Leanne] 46:19 - 46:21)
Yep. With two mills
[Frank] (46:21 - 46:22)
Yeah.
[Amelia] (46:22 - 46:23)
Oh I never thought of that.
[Frank] (46:23 - 46:24)
Yeah.
00:46:24,660 --> 00:46:29,660
So, this is where all these different materials really make a massive, massive impact.
[Amelia] (46:29 - 46:31)
So many things to think about.
[Frank] (46:31 - 46:32)
And the cost.
[Amelia] (46:32 - 46:51)
And I think that's probably the biggest thing is that's...but a lot of people don't realise, you know, they have this dream of building this, you know, beautiful property. And then they haven't realised, "Oh, I've got to have room for a turning circle. I've got to have extra tank in the backyard for bushfire and...it's all these things."
[Frank] (46:51 - 46:59)
But we advise straight away. If you come to us in a rural block and it's heavily vegitated, make sure you do a clearance of the 50-metre radius. That's massive.
[Amelia] (46:59 - 47:00)
That's huge.
[Frank] (47:00 - 47:12)
And that gives you place to position the house, your waste water, turn your truck, bushfire protection, it sounds like a lot, but it's probably a bit underdone, you know, subject to how dense and the gradient...
[Leanne] (47:12 - 47:13)
And the slope, yeah
[Frank] (47:13 - 47:16)
...and how steep it is, because fire loves going uphill.
[Leanne] (47:16 - 47:23)
Because it's not that the slope under...like it's the slope under the vegetation, it's not the slope between you and the vegetation.
[Amelia] (47:23 - 47:24)
Okay.
[Leanne] (47:24 - 47:35)
So you may be, you know, upslope from the vegetation, but if the slope under the vegetation is flat, that's far less risk than if it has a downslope underneath it. So, because fire runs uphill.
[Frank] (47:35 - 47:40)
And Tassie ain't real flat, generally. Especially down the Midlands, or on top of the central highlands.
[Leanne] 00:47:40 - 47:41)
Exactly.
[Frank] (47:41 - 47:46)
We’ve got some flat patches, but the rest of it, we live on the side of a hill, like that we're in the time of valley and guess what, it's a valley.
[Amelia] (47:46 - 47:47)
Yeah.
[Leanne] (47:47 - 47:48)
Lots of hills.
[Frank] (47:48 - 47:50)
Lots of hills and same with Hobart and the Derwent Valley.
[Leanne] (47:50 - 47:52)
Absolutely, more hills.
[Frank] (47:52 - 47:55)
More hills. But hills gives views.
[Leanne] (47:55 - 47:56)
Absolutely.
[Amelia] (47:56 – 48:04)
They do. Alright, well, we might start wrapping up. What are the key take home points for anyone looking to get a bushfire assessment done?
[Leanne] (48:04 - 48:44)
I'd say, like, talk with your designer. Or you builder, if you've got a builder in mind, like, talk to them, get them to use the bushfire practitioner that they usually use. Or, talk to people that are around in your area that you might be building in, you know, and get someone on board early so you can make those wise choices to reduce costs and to manage the things that you need, that management of vegetation, that access and that water supply for firefighting. And they're the three things you've got to consider. So if you're thinking about all of those, you know who to use and where to go and you've already had that, you know, first, preliminary discussion so that your build project is where it should be, then it's all good.
[Amelia] (48:44 - 48:57)
And if people want to reach out to you directly to ask a question or, you know, get a bushfire assessment done, maybe they've sort of already been through that preliminary process with a designer where can they find you?
[Leanne] (48:57 - 49:15)
I'm literally a one-man band and I don't really actually have a social presence. But yeah, I'm contactable just if you Google my name and I'm on the TFS website as a listed as a bushfire practitioner there. And again, through designers that I work with, they have my contact details as well.
[Amelia] (49:15 - 49:18)
So that's Autumn Leaves Consulting?
[Leanne] (49:16 – 49:23)
Yeah or just under my name, Leanne Jordan Bushfire Practitioner, yeah
[Amelia] (49:23 – 49:36)
Wonderful. Oh, thank you so much for coming in, Leanne. We're so grateful that you can share some tips and experience of putting together a bushfire management plan and understanding how bushfire attack levels work. So thank you so much for coming in.
[Leanne] (49:36 - 49:37)
Thank you for having me.
[Amelia] (49:37 - 49:38)
We might wrap it up there.
[Frank] (49:38 - 49:39)
Thanks, Leanne.
[Leanne] (49:39 - 49:40)
Thank you.
[Amelia] (49:40 - 49:43)
Thanks for listening to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast.
[Frank] (49:43 - 49:44)
Catch you later.
[OUTRO] (49:45 - 49:57)
You're listening to the Building Design, Prime Time podcast.
