Building Design, Prime Time
We are building designers from Prime Design. We created the Building Design, Prime Time podcast, to provide valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designer's perspective.
Building Design, Prime Time
E106. Passive house design with guest Sam from SM building (Part 2)
In this episode of the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast Frank and Amelia welcome back Sam from SM Building for the second instalment of our two-part series on Passive House design (If you haven't listened to part one yet go back to the previous episode first so you can hear the full instalment). Frank, Amelia and Sam dive deeper into what it really takes to build and certify a home to this international standard. They explore the processes, inspections, and rigorous testing that set a Passive House apart from a standard build.
From understanding the role of the Australian Passive House Association and how to find certified professionals, to recognising the significance of the certification plaque, we uncover the steps that prove a home is more than just “inspired by” Passive House principles. Sam shares his experience navigating the added documentation, blower door testing, and quality checks that create a home built for comfort, energy efficiency, and long-term durability.
They also open up an honest conversation about quality in the broader building industry and why it’s often overlooked, how price-driven decisions can compromise outcomes, and what clients should really look for when choosing a builder. With practical advice on interviewing builders, checking references, and building trust early in the design journey, this episode offers valuable insights for anyone considering a new home or renovation.
If you’ve been curious about Passive House or simply want to better understand how to secure a high-quality build, this episode is full of takeaways to help you make informed decisions. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode! Every week there is a different topic!
About us
Prime Design is a building design company locally owned and operated in Tasmania since 2004. Our goal is to share as much valuable information as possible about the process of building design, extensions, and more. We will talk about a different topic each week. To suggest a topic you would like us to talk about contact us at info@primedesigntas.com.au
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The information provided on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice, individual circumstances, or remedy. We strongly suggest you consult a qualified professional before taking any action based on the information provided in this podcast. The views, opinions, and information provided in this podcast are those of the hosts do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organisation, employer, or company. All content provided on this podcast is provided “as is” without warranty of any kind. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this podcast and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, or damages arising from its use. We reserve the right to change content or delete any information provided on this podcast at any time without prior notice.
E106. Passive House with guest Sam from SM Building (Part 2)
[INTRO] (0:08 - 0:24)
Hello and welcome to The Building Design, Prime Time Podcast, focused on providing valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We'll share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designers perspective.
[Amelia] (0:26 - 1:06)
Hello and welcome to The Building Design, Prime Time Podcast. I'm your host Amelia and once again, we welcome back Frank Geskus. And if you've been following along from our previous episode, we had part one with Sam from SM Building, who came in to chat to us about passive house design.
It’s very exciting. He has some units in Hadspen, which are certified passive house. And we're going to dive straight into part two with Sam from SM Building to talk more about passive house design.
[Frank] (1:07 - 1:13)
The National Construction Code is so contrary to passive house in so many ways.
[Amelia] (1:13 - 1:51)
I was going to ask about that. So when the design and everything is done for passive house, is it mostly with performance solutions or does it meet the standard the usual way?
[Sam]
Well, I guess from the experience we had, I didn't have to do anything for a performance solution. Like you put it through your energy rating still. And as long as it meets your seven star that you need, then it's met that criteria for the NCC, hasn't it? But in reality, it performs a lot better than that seven star.
[Amelia]
Are we seven now?
[Frank]
Six.
[Amelia]
Oh, we are still six.
[Frank] (1:51 - 1:58)
Tasmania is still six and it's going to stay six for a while. Soapbox time. That's where the state government is.
[Sam] (1:58 - 2:00)
They keep changing the data though and that's coming in.
[Frank] (2:00 - 2:08)
Yeah, but I don't have a problem with that because the National Construction Code hasn't addressed condensation.
[Sam] (2:09 - 2:11)
No, that's one of the biggest issues.
[Frank] (2:11 - 2:22)
So prediction time. Get my crystal ball out. New South Wales and Victoria, who are seven star, I am seriously worried they're going to have a problem in possibly five. Are we going to call it leaky buildings syndrome?
[Sam] (2:22 - 2:25)
Yeah, pretty well.
[Frank] (2:26 - 2:40)
It could be that or it could be something quite similar. And you're going to have these buildings with seriously crazy condensation problems. But as I believe a few project home builders, they put HRVs in standard now in their homes because they recognise the problem.
[Sam] (2:41 - 2:45)
Yeah, well that's good that there is some doing that. There's probably a lot that are not.
[Frank] (2:45 - 2:53)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly right. And yeah, I have great reservations how the board of the National Construction Code...
[Sam] (2:53 - 2:59)
I just find it crazy that they haven't taken learnings from other countries that have dealt with it.
[Frank] (2:59 - 3:07)
Oh, totally. But the Tasmanian government, as much as we criticise CBOS and all the rest of them, they've put money into getting research done on this.
[Sam] (3:07 - 3:14)
Yeah, Mark Drewsbury and Clarence McAlister have done a lot of work in that space.
[Amelia]
We've had Clarence on the podcast.
[Sam] (3:14 - 3:41)
He's a good guy.
[Frank]
Oh, he's wonderful. And knowledge is amazing. We'll have to get him back. I'm trying to get hold of Mark as well. I’ve almost got to kidnap him from the uni and drag him out kicking and screaming. Like, these guys are a wealth of knowledge. And the research they do, very thankful that they're in Tasmania because the government's listened. Yeah.
Now, where they come up with clear solutions for this. But I think it's going to be contrary to what the National Construction Code says, which is a real problem.
[Sam] (3:41 - 3:58)
Well, that's the thing. I don't think there's going to be a lot of change in pushing towards high performance or passive stuff until the Code starts to reflect that. People are usually tight on money. They don't want to spend the money unless they have to.
[Frank] (3:59 - 5:10)
Let's be fair. Let's call it a spade a spade. There are certain building associations that have got very strong presences with state and federal governments that affect all these changes.
I'll use the LHDS requirements, which is livable housing. We're getting what I consider reasonable access for people with mobility issues into a house. It's not rocket science, this stuff. Yet it got within six weeks before it being released last year. It's just a right. This is what we're doing.
They changed it and they've spread it over two years. So they kicked the can down the road. All because of extra expense and all these other excuses.
And that's pretty typical with a lot of stuff. Every time there's a change to the National Construction Code (NCC) upgrade, you know you're changing from five star to six star or whatever, these associations come in kicking and screaming and it's going to cost the consumer more. Yep.
I have no doubt it does. But to the level they're talking about, I disagree where they're coming from. And I think it's to the detriment of homeowners in the future.
Yep, you're going to have small jumps. But they stop a lot of this stuff.
[Sam] (5:10 - 5:20)
Yeah, I think I guess from all of the, from the mobility side of it to the energy efficiency, if the government makes a stance and says, we're going to do this, that becomes...
[Frank] (5:20 - 5:39)
They do on all their Homes TAS, have a minimum requirement for LHA silver, which is greater than what's in the NCC. And their buildings have to be minimum, some of them are seven star, some are six, depends which one. They set a high standard for their own residential, for social housing.
[Sam] (5:39 - 6:00)
But I think that's great because then that starts to make it, I guess, more affordable if the government's doing it or whatever. Like that's a large number getting done. So then you're not just talking about two or three builders.
So then the cost of things are more expensive when it's that. But if the government are getting involved in doing it, then it becomes more normal.
[Amelia]
More widely adapted.
[Frank] (6:01 - 6:14)
Their struggle is actually, let's be fair, getting their shit organised and getting enough built. And this is the Feds as well. There is a clear problem, Tasmania promised a thousand houses a year and all this type of stuff.
They're not even getting close.
[Sam] (6:14 - 6:15)
Yeah.
[Frank] (6:15 - 6:33)
And because they've got some real issues internally on how they process and the expectations of how they want them to look and all this, rather than just getting houses out. And the Feds are the same. How much they spent, they said an election, a billion dollars and they want to build 400 or refurbish 400 houses.
What a load of crap.
[Sam] (6:33 - 6:38)
Yeah, that's way over my head. I don't listen to enough of the politics stuff.
[Frank] (6:38 - 6:52)
I follow it because it drives me, because I hate waste. Just get in and do it.
[Sam]
Yeah, I think if you're going to say you're going to do something like, yeah.
[Frank]
Don't set up a whole department. Just write contracts out. This is what you're doing.
Hold the builders accountable.
[Sam] (6:53 - 7:16)
Yeah. And it's like, go and get the people that, you know, I guess agree or are like-minded in those things. If the government want to do the disability side of stuff and the mobility side and make it easier, get someone that understands that and wants to do that.
Or same with energy efficiency or passive house or whatever it is that they want to do. Just get the people in the door that want to do that.
[Frank] (7:16 - 7:43)
I look at things quite simply with this type of stuff. Just get in and do it and do it properly. You can set all the parameters.
You can set up special conditions that the builder, rather than being responsible for seven years for the house, they're responsible for 21 years. I'll guarantee you that the building will-
[Sam]
Start to improve.
[Frank]
Yeah. And they keep a bond for that period. Yeah. Yeah, it's going to cost you more.
I'm not disagreeing and I wouldn't argue that. But I tell you what, it'll be built pretty well.
[Sam] (7:43 - 8:00)
Yeah, and I think that's, I guess, the hard sticking point is that there's a lot of- Well, there's probably builders out there that aren't even meeting the code to be fair, but the code is the lowest standard you can build. It is, isn't it? Yeah, it's-
[Amelia]
Why are we aiming so low?
[Sam]
Yeah, I 100% agree.
[Frank] (8:00 - 8:03)
With passive house, is it the total opposite end of the scale?
[Sam] (8:04 - 8:24)
Yeah, yes. I'd say definitely the gold standard of building and that. It comes with a lot of benefits, but it does come at a higher cost, no doubt about it.
But I guess if you're getting a passive house built or something along those lines, the builder's presumably got some knowledge and is building higher standard homes than just the code.
[Frank] (8:24 - 8:30)
But what I'm really impressed is how many builders, not Tassie, but all over the country where they're starting to stand up and say, we can do better.
[Sam] (8:31 - 8:35)
Yeah, there does seem to be a lot of that happening, which is great.
[Frank] (8:35 - 8:45)
Yeah, so it's the builders. There's a group of builders in all the different states who want to do better. They want to build healthier. They want to build thermally more efficient, just better homes.
[Sam] (8:45 - 9:22)
And I think that's, I mean, a lot of it comes down to that education side. Like, I mean, for me, I just did the passive house course to, I guess, expand my knowledge. Like, not really thinking, I guess, too much about the future and that sort of stuff.
But once you do the course and it just all makes sense, and then you think, well, why are we building the way we're building? We have to make a change. And, I mean, clearly there's a lot of other builders who have gone and done that as well.
And that's also, you know, passive house led me to healthy home stuff as well, like Zara D’Cotta does that.
[Frank]
Yep, we've got a podcast.
[Amelia]
We've had her as well.
[Sam]
Yeah, she's great as well.
[Frank] (9:22 - 9:35)
She's awesome. And I find this great. There's such a lot of builders and other professionals that really want to push this, and so do we, that we can do better.
Let us do better for you.
[Sam] (9:36 - 10:34)
Yeah, and I think a lot of it, yeah, we've just got to educate the clients. And there is a lot of people out there, I guess, that probably already are looking into it. And maybe there's a lot of questions, I don't know.
But, like, it's just getting that education out there that you can do it. It can be affordable. It just comes down to the design and designing something that works rather than going, I need to have a mansion or that.
Yep. Our aim is to, I guess, build affordable passive homes, like not having the multimillion dollar price tag on them, to make them so that more people can get into it. Like that was one of the big things with the units for us.
If we can build houses that are going to be better for everyone to live in, healthier outcomes, you might help somebody that has asthma or whatever and that improves their life or, you know, whether it's the mould issues, if they're living in a house that's got mould and they move into one of those and all of a sudden it changes their way.
[Frank] (10:34 - 10:35)
It can change their life.
[Sam] (10:36 - 11:07)
Yeah, and I think that outweighs, for me, the monetary side of it. We had some personal stuff that sort of pushed us in the direction of going for passive stuff. And I'm not saying the house that we lived in or whatever caused that, but it gets you thinking about that side of stuff.
Yeah, so it was more about disregarding the cost of it and looking at the benefits. Like if we can help one person, that's enough, I think. You hope more, but yeah.
[Frank] (11:07 - 11:45)
Over time, because as soon as the message gets out there, and then certain people are going to be looking for this, I can't help but think elderly people, and I'm sorry I'm getting into that range.
[Amelia]
Not quite, yet Frank!
[Frank]
No quite but it is…
[Sam]
Sometimes I feel like that too.
[Frank]
But starting to look at having a house that's healthier and it functions, the maintenance, yeah, okay, it's lower, or should be in a lot of sense. And you design it to LHA standard, if it's not silver, you go gold, you go another level again.
Basically you're building a house you don't need to move out of. And if you're in a great community.
[Sam] (11:45 - 11:54)
Yeah, absolutely. I can't remember if it was in the passive house, one of the courses I've done, like the average life expectancy in a house is like 11 years.
[Frank] (11:54 - 11:57)
Isn't that bizarre?
[Amelia]
That's not very long, really.
[Sam] (11:57 - 12:12)
Not when you think about it. Most of that is probably as a child.
[Frank]
Yeah, you're probably right.
[Sam]
So that average is probably skewed once you become an adult. Not many people would live in a house as an adult for that long. We've been in our place for six years.
[Frank] (12:13 - 12:15)
We've come up to, yeah, we're in our 22nd year.
[Sam] (12:16 - 12:23)
Yeah, that's been an anomaly though. Most people would probably be three or four different houses in that time period, probably.
[Frank] (12:24 - 12:24)
I'm comfy.
[Sam] (12:25 - 12:31)
Yeah, and I think, but if you design your houses right, and it's comfortable, there's no reason to move.
[Frank] (12:32 - 12:35)
No, there isn't, but other than people's circumstances.
[Sam] (12:36 - 12:37)
Yeah, obviously circumstances make a difference.
[Frank] (12:37 - 13:05)
I think if we can then, and I look at old age care facilities, my mum's in a beautiful facility up in Norwood, it's called Peacehaven. And the houses, they're old stock. But the community, it's utterly blown me away.
What a beautiful place to live. All these people, they actually give a crap about each other. They all get together and have a happy hour and other events up there.
They all connect and they go out for lunch and doing stuff. And I'm going, they're living their best lives.
[Sam] (13:06 - 13:13)
Yeah, well, that's one that I suppose I've looked a bit into, like longevity and stuff as well. And yeah, like community is a big thing, isn't it?
[Frank] (13:14 - 13:17)
I think it is. And community is disappearing in a way.
[Sam] (13:18 - 13:21)
Yeah, definitely. I think everyone's sort of getting a bit more closed off, aren't they?
[Frank] (13:22 - 13:45)
Yeah, but imagine having larger unit developments, because we do a lot of large unit developments with customers for social and private, and that's up to 100 odd houses. Imagine you could build communities with passive houses, LHA, silver or gold, and you have these great community spaces in there as well. There is a massive shortage in Tasmania for...
[Sam] (13:45 - 13:48)
You think about a retirement place, for instance.
[Frank] (13:48 - 13:49)
And there's a big shortage.
[Sam] (13:49 - 14:09)
Passive house, again, is a gold standard. But if you can incorporate that into the builds for those, then you've got these elderly people that aren't going to be struck down with the flu as often and all of those sort of healthier lifestyle for them. They've got the community around them.
I think it'd be great.
[Frank] (14:10 - 14:12)
It's a place you'd want to go and live, isn't it?
[Sam] (14:12 - 14:15)
Yeah. Yeah, well, maybe not now, but...
[Frank] (14:15 - 14:30)
But let's be fair. Like, it's nice to stay in your home because it's comfortable. But eventually going to a place where you can also, because you age, you’re frail, but also you've got emergency systems built in to look after you as well.
[Sam] (14:30 - 14:37)
Yeah. Well, I think, I mean, the percentage of people that would end up in a retirement village would be fairly high, I'd imagine. I wouldn't know what the number is.
[Frank] (14:37 - 14:45)
But the population is ageing. And I think, and someone can correct us on this, but I think Tasmania's got the highest average age in Australia.
[Sam] (14:46 - 14:48)
Yeah, okay. That doesn't surprise me.
[Frank] (14:48 - 14:52)
Yeah. And then you need more facilities and better facilities.
[Sam] (14:52 - 15:00)
Yeah, I think, like, if you get someone to take a leap doing something like that, that'd be a game changer for the industry, like, going forward with it, I think.
[Frank] (15:01 - 15:10)
Because it all comes down to someone being able to afford them because, like, my mum, she had to buy the unit.
[Sam]
Yeah, that's how a lot of them work.
[Frank]
And then you get a percentage back.
[Sam] (15:10 - 15:11)
Yeah.
[Frank] (15:11 - 15:39)
And then a percentage of the capital, on the capital gains of it as well, and they pay a monthly fee and all the rest of it. So, look, at the end of the day, if you're fortunate enough to be able to get in there and be able to afford that, you sell your family home, hopefully you'll be able to afford going in there on the pension and all the rest of it. It's a beautiful place to live, you know.
And if we could do it as Passive House and good accessibility, good community, mate, it seems like the dream.
[Sam]
There's a lot of ticks there, I think.
[Frank]
There's a lot of ticks.
[Amelia] (15:40 - 15:40)
Definitely.
[Frank] (15:41 - 15:52)
But also social housing, you know, having those at a higher performance and if you can get a Passive House at a reasonable cost. The problem is they have massive budgetary constraints on their construction costs.
[Sam] (15:53 - 16:00)
And I guess that's where, like, going back to that before, like a bigger house, the percentage of extra costs for Passive Houses decreases.
[Frank] (16:01 - 16:08)
It does. As long as the design is kept simple. So you look at the design that you did for the units, if you were to do that into a four-bedroom.
[Sam] (16:08 - 16:15)
Yeah. Straight lines, simplified. It's literally just a little bit extra, the square metre for the concrete and a bit extra framing.
[Frank] (16:16 - 16:16)
Proportionally.
[Sam] (16:17 - 16:25)
Yeah. But I think, yeah, like, if you're looking at doing a big development as such at that sort of scale, it probably wouldn't be that much different.
[Frank] (16:26 - 16:26)
No.
[Sam] (16:26 - 16:28)
By the time you do it all.
[Frank] (16:28 - 16:31)
And you can set up better surveillance systems in them as well for the elderly.
[Sam] (16:31 - 16:37)
Yeah.
[Frank]
Good food for thought.
[Sam]
Yeah, it'd be interesting to see if anyone ever does it, but I think it's a great idea.
[Frank] (16:38 - 16:41)
It'd be nice, because you've got to think of the elderly, because we're heading that way.
[Amelia] (16:43 - 16:45)
There you go. There's your next project to design.
[Frank] (16:46 - 16:47)
Yeah, well...
[Amelia] (16:47 - 16:50)
100 Passive Houses, just small fry, you know.
[Frank] (16:50 - 16:52)
Yeah, well...
[Sam]
Gated community.
[Frank] (16:52 - 16:53)
Yeah.
[Speaker 2] (16:53 - 16:56)
Yeah, gated community. Yeah. I reckon there's a market for that.
[Amelia] (16:56 - 16:57)
Probably would be.
[Frank] (16:57 - 17:02)
But we've still got to build, what, 4,500, 5,000 houses for people that actually need shelter.
[Sam] (17:02 - 17:02)
Yeah.
[Amelia] (17:03 - 17:05)
Housing. Yes
[Frank]
In Tasmania. Sorry, this is in Tasmania.
[Sam] (17:05 - 17:28)
But why can't they do that? You know, it's all relative to that as well, isn't it? Like, yeah, we're talking about the elderly community with that, but why not do it the same way?
Because, I mean, that housing has a cost on the government.
[Frank]
My word, it does.
[Sam]
So if you can then turn that around and lower the energy costs and that sort of stuff, putting solar on it or whatever, and then it's not a cost as much of it.
[Frank] (17:28 - 17:38)
Having been involved in a lot of them. Where we struggle... Sorry, where we struggle.
You go back and look at them, and some of them are not well looked after. They're actually abused, the buildings.
[Sam] (17:38 - 17:38)
Yeah.
[Frank] (17:38 - 17:55)
And it's really sad to see when you've been there, it's all finished, looking magnificent, and then it looks like a bit of a hovel. It's a real shame. I've been to other ones, and one in particular comes to mind, and it was for a certain demographic, and it looks a million bucks.
[Sam] (17:55 - 17:55)
Yeah.
[Frank] (17:55 - 18:02)
Because everyone's there, the same age, same everything, and they're there and so thankful to be there.
[Sam] (18:02 - 18:12)
Yeah. And, I mean, I think it does come down to that too, doesn't it? There's people out there that just need a hand versus people that...
Expect a hand.
[Frank] (18:12 - 18:12)
Expect a hand.
[Sam] (18:12 - 18:32)
Yeah. And, I mean, we're not in that space at all. Yeah.
So I won't pretend to know all about that side of it, but, yeah, I think down that area of the way we want to go, and I guess maybe not to make it affordable for social housing as such, but, like, making them affordable for more people is a big thing.
[Frank] (18:32 - 18:32)
Yeah, pretty much so.
[Sam] (18:33 - 18:40)
It is. And the more that it becomes mainstream to a degree will help with the costs of that.
[Frank] (18:40 - 18:44)
So if you could get quality build, so it's going to last a long time.
[Sam] (18:45 - 18:45)
Yeah.
[Frank] (18:45 - 18:54)
It's a healthy build for the occupants, performs thermally incredibly well, and you can build a community. I reckon if you can hit those four things...
[Sam] (18:55 - 18:55)
Yeah.
[Frank] (18:55 - 18:56)
...it'd be pretty amazing.
[Sam] (18:56 - 18:57)
Yeah, definitely.
[Frank] (18:58 - 19:03)
You know? But you've got to convince the powers that be.
[Sam] (19:03 - 19:05)
Yeah. That's a bigger task. They can't even work it out between themselves at the moment.
[Frank] (19:05 - 19:15)
It is. Well, yeah, ain't that the truth. But, yeah. So how do you find someone certified to do passive house?
[Sam] (19:15 - 19:40)
Probably the best way would be go onto the Australian Passive House Association website.
[Frank]
Yep. Everyone's registered on there.
[Sam]
Yeah, there's a directory. You can find designers, the builders, all that sort of stuff. They might even have a directory for the certified products.
Oh, yeah, which is good. Yeah, so when you're building, it's not just you can't just go and pick anything you want. It's obviously got to be passed by the Passive House Association.
[Frank] (19:40 - 19:43)
And how can you tell if someone's got a certified passive house?
[Sam] (19:44 - 19:47)
Well, if it's a certified passive house, it'll have a plaque.
[Frank] (19:48 - 19:50)
So look for the plaque. The stamp of approval.
[Sam] (19:51 - 19:58)
Yeah, like there's a lot of people out there, I suppose, that say they've got a passive house. But if you don't see a plaque, I don't know if I'd believe it.
[Frank] (19:58 - 19:59)
It's called bullshit.
[Sam] (19:59 - 20:02)
Yeah, that's a good way to say it.
[Frank] (20:02 - 20:04)
It may have passive house principles.
[Sam] (20:05 - 20:05)
Yeah, that's right.
[Frank] (20:05 - 20:07)
But you don't get the shiny plaque.
[Sam] (20:08 - 20:12)
Yeah, and it hasn't necessarily gone through the rigorous, I guess.
[Frank] (20:12 - 20:18)
Because that's what you're paying for. You're paying for the rigorous testing, inspections, all of that, which costs a lot of money.
[Sam] (20:18 - 20:20)
Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
[Frank] (20:20 - 20:27)
Yet I'm going to compare this to a normal build where you might have, including your plumbing, seven inspections.
[Amelia] (20:27 - 20:28)
Is it six or seven? There you go.
[Frank] (20:28 - 20:34)
Is it seven?
[Sam]
Seven.
[Frank]
Is it? Foundation, frame, plumbing, underslab plumbing.
[Amelia] (20:35 - 20:36)
Waterproofing.
[Frank] (20:36 - 20:36)
Yeah, now waterproofing.
[Sam] (20:37 - 20:38)
Yeah, well, waterproofing’s come in yeah.
[Frank] (20:38 - 20:43)
And final. Final. Maybe it's six.
Maybe it's six. Yeah. So how many have you got to do?
[Sam] (20:43 - 20:49)
So we've got to add the blower door test to that as well as putting all of the photos and documentation in.
[Frank] (20:49 - 20:59)
So then you've got a fully documented house, fully recorded, checked against the design on every aspect.
[Sam] (20:59 - 21:13)
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, not all of it necessarily for passive. We don't, I guess, in terms of like a frame inspection, for instance, they're not worried about necessarily that. So that's more of it on the other end of it.
[Frank] (21:13 - 21:46)
Yeah, that's right.
[Sam]
You've got to do that anyway.
[Frank]
The amount of inspections and accountability that you have doing this compared to a normal build, because we've discussed this as well on the podcast, where you do a normal build, there's not enough inspections, how do you know what you're getting and whether it's, you know, the installation's done properly, it's thermally, it's leaky and all that, the window's installed properly.
[Frank]
Yeah. Waterproofing is one that we keep banging on about. The door's actually sealed properly, the window's sealed properly.
All these things that are supposed to do properly and no one's actually checking it, because it's not the job, it's not a requirement.
[Sam] (21:46 - 22:26)
Yeah, that's right. And I think that's where it's hard with once you build this way, I think it's hard to then incorporate that when you're doing a normal build, I suppose. So, like, you try and still incorporate that.
Like, I still think on houses going forward for us, we'll still take a lot of photos and have that as a, here, this is what we've done for you as a client, so that they've got that as documentation potentially so that they know they're getting that standard of build. I mean, it won't be signed off or anything like that, but if they know that we've taken photos and inspected the insulation, I think blower door tests should probably be mandatory.
[Frank] (22:26 - 22:46)
Yeah, because it is under the NCC. It is a requirement in there anyway.
[Sam]
To do a blower door test.
[Frank]
Well, no, the leakage. Oh, yeah, yeah. Not so much the blower door test, but the leakage.
Because then could you claim that passive house built houses are of a higher quality than the average house?
[Sam] (22:46 - 22:47)
Well, presumably.
[Frank] (22:48 - 23:11)
You would have to if it passes everything. Because interestingly, I'm just thinking, I'm racking through my head, when I look at all the things about passive house, no one talks about the quality of the house that you receive at the end of it. If you've got a plaque on the wall, you've got a house of a far higher build quality than the average minimum requirements under the NCC by everyone else you could say.
[Sam] (23:11 - 23:28)
Well, I guess. I'm just putting it out there. Yeah, I guess.
Well, it's higher quality in that. So if you're using passive houses, it meets those five key pillars.
[Frank]
Yes.
[Sam]
Those parts are guaranteed. If you've got a plaque, they're guaranteed to be higher quality than a standard build.
[Frank] (23:30 - 23:38)
But hopefully the rest of it, because you're putting that much care and effort in in detail, the rest of the house should meet a similar quality.
[Sam] (23:39 - 23:53)
Yeah, expectation would be that it would be. Higher standard throughout. But I guess passive house is based around just those key pillars.
And then your building surveyors and standard inspections are all independent to that.
[Frank] (23:55 - 24:00)
It just got me thinking because there's some people out there, all they want is a quality build.
[Sam] (24:01 - 24:03)
Yeah, that's right. And I think that's a different thing.
[Frank] (24:03 - 24:04)
But it kind of goes hand in hand
[Sam] (24:04 - 24:16)
It does go hand in hand. I think if you've got builders that are doing passive house, then presumably that's at a higher standard and quality build.
[Frank] (24:16 - 24:19)
You'd think so because it aligns.
[Sam] (24:19 - 24:26)
Yeah, that's right. You're not going to go and put all the extra time to learn it and the money. And put the money in the house.
[Frank] (24:26 - 24:34)
Yeah. The extra certification, the dollars it gets involved, the dollars in the design to get certified and all that. You're paying for that.
[Sam] (24:34 - 24:47)
The client ultimately pays, I guess, for that. But the builder, it takes a lot more time and effort from the builder as well. So you're not going to go down that path if you're not sort of delivering, I guess, quality.
[Frank] (24:47 - 24:56)
That's kind of what I'm thinking. I'm just making a bit of a statement and just thinking out. Because you'd expect a higher quality build because of the attitude and mindset of the builder.
[Sam] (24:56 - 25:06)
Yeah, yeah, I'd agree with that. But I guess it's just not necessarily guaranteed. But you would assume so, yeah.
[Frank]
You'd assume so. Just throwing it out there.
[Sam]
Yeah, yeah.
[Frank] (25:07 - 25:34)
Because I believe that's something that's missing in our industry is quality. As in the word quality going into the house. Yeah.
And the passion of building it well. Because there's a lot of stuff going out there. It's just getting smashed out.
Just get it built, get it done, move on to the next one. And there's some builders I know that do normal building, and they're fantastic builders. They're fantastic.
The attention to detail, they're great. And there's other people just pumping it out because I've got to move on to the next one.
[Sam] (25:34 - 25:42)
Yeah. And I think you can sort of, walking through a house, sort of pick that quality pretty quickly. But you don't know until, like...
[Frank] (25:42 - 25:45)
Well, to people in the know, they do.
[Sam] (25:45 - 25:59)
Yeah. But the average punter doesn't. Yeah, there's a lot of things probably that I've seen.
Like we talk about it a fair bit. Like, you know, you go to a new restaurant or someone's new house or something. Like as a tradesperson, you walk around, like you're picking everything.
[Frank] (25:59 - 26:00)
You're a judgemental bastard.
[Sam] (26:00 - 26:01)
Yeah.
[Frank] (26:01 - 26:04)
Going through someone's house and picking... Like, gee, look at the skirting.
[Sam] (26:04 - 26:05)
Yeah, yeah.
[Frank] (26:05 - 26:13)
Look how much... How much normal gaps did they put in that? Or like, you know, the mitre joints at the top of the doors, and the square set isn't like...Really?
[Sam] (26:13 - 26:18)
Like, you are right. There's a lot of people that probably walk through and don't pick up on it, but...
[Frank] (26:18 - 26:26)
But as tradespeople and like as designers, you feel a bit rude judging on everyone's houses.
[Sam] (26:26 - 27:06)
Yeah. Yeah, I'm the same. But I think if you're a client and you're looking for quality, you will pick up on all those things.
Like, you'll walk in and, you know, if the skirting's all wavy or... Yeah. You know, then you can tell they haven't necessarily taken the time to make your walls straight and all that sort of stuff.
So, yeah, I think to the... If the client... A lot of people will say they want quality and all that sort of stuff, but like you said earlier, I think a lot of it is down to money.
If someone's, you know, 650 for a build versus 600, and they're like, oh, well, I want the 600, well, then that's not necessarily going to be quality because if they're that big a difference, there's a reason for it.
[Frank] (27:06 - 27:22)
Especially if the quote is broken down. We've spoken about this too.
[Sam]
Yeah, the apples for apples.
[Frank]
The apples for apples. You need to be able to compare it. And hopefully in the future, there'll be passive house builders competing on passive house builds.
[Sam] (27:22 - 27:44)
Yeah. I sort of think the industry is probably pushing it a different way in terms of competing for price with other builders because I think, you know, the best way for clients is collaboration with the builder and the designer from the start. So I guess potentially you don't necessarily have the competing side of it.
I mean, that's not to say that a client can't go through that journey with the designer and the builder and then get prices elsewhere.
[Frank] (27:44 - 27:46)
As long as they pay the builder for their time.
[Sam] (27:46 - 27:51)
Yeah. And, yeah, you don't want to, I guess, use someone and go somewhere else. But...
[Frank] (27:51 - 27:53)
It does happen.
[Sam] (27:53 - 28:07)
It definitely happens. And I think that's, you know, generally I think you'd find that's probably because they don't necessarily have that trust built throughout the relationship before they get to that point. You know, if you're going through, like, how long is the design phase of the build?
[Frank] (28:08 - 28:11)
If you get it done fast, you're looking about between four and a half to five months.
[Sam] (28:11 - 28:12)
Yeah.
[Frank] (28:12 - 28:17)
With all your permits. And that's like 12 weeks of council and building permits and we haven't done anything yet.
[Sam] (28:17 - 28:43)
So it's a lot of time that's in... So if you're a builder involved, that's through that process and the clients don't trust you enough at the time when you're pricing the job to go somewhere else. You probably aren't doing your job right.
You probably aren't building the trust with them and educating them along the way, I guess. So, yeah, I think getting away from competing price-wise for everyone's the best scenario if you've built the trust, you see.
[Frank] (28:43 - 28:56)
But we also encourage and we have documents on our website that people can download choosing a builder, you know. You've got to go interview.
[Amelia]
Yes.
[Frank]
Because it's a pretty close relationship and, like you said, you've got to build that trust.
[Sam] (28:56 - 28:57)
Yeah, that's right.
[Frank] (28:57 - 29:06)
So then go interview your builders who you're thinking about talking to on recommendation, get testimonials, go to the previous work sites, all that type of stuff.
[Sam] (29:07 - 29:15)
Yeah, that's right. And I think a lot of people go into the process and maybe don't really understand the whole start, finish.
[Frank] (29:15 - 29:19)
And that's why we started this podcast.
[Amelia]
Exactly.
[Frank]
For that exact reason.
[Sam] (29:19 - 29:20)
Yeah.
[Frank] (29:20 - 29:25)
To help people educate because the better educated you are, the better you can make decisions.
[Sam] (29:25 - 29:32)
Yeah, and I think it's on the designer and the builder to educate the client throughout that process and get them the best outcome.
[Frank] (29:32 - 29:33)
Yes.
[Sam] (29:33 - 29:40)
I guess it comes down to the same thing, like if you're pricing something at $650 and then there's people coming in at $600, they're not being honest necessarily.
[Frank] (29:41 - 29:45)
Well, what have they excluded or what provisions have they allowed for?
[Sam] (29:45 - 29:56)
Yeah, that's right. And if you start that process with the client and you're educating them along the way, they're not going to have the big, oh shit, that's not the price that I thought it was going to be.
[Frank] (29:56 - 29:58)
Because that's got to be discussed very early.
[Sam] (29:58 - 29:59)
Yeah.
[Frank] (29:59 - 30:05)
Even through conceptual stage of sketch design you know you're working rough numbers.
[Sam] (30:05 - 30:06)
Yeah.
[Frank] (30:06 - 30:08)
Really rough. Are we in the ballpark?
[Sam](30:08 - 30:37)
Yeah that's right you're doing your feasibilities aren't you go okay well this is a range and then you work on those parameters and then you do another estimate.But I mean a lot more of it's the money is a big thing but it's still educating around parts of the build that are if they're complex or whatever where the cost and stuff are associated and advising on other ways.
If they're trying to save money or whatever so it's not just about the money side of it I think but…
[Frank](30:37 - 30:44)
Yeah. It's a journey and if you can do it together and everyone's open and honest.
[Sam](30:44 - 30:45)
Yeah definitely.
[Frank](30:45 - 30:50)
I hears a horror story today where they started building and then the client goes I haven’t got my finance sorted.
[Amelia] (30:51 - 30:52)
Oh what?
[Frank](30:52 - 30:53)
No I'm not joking.
[Amelia] (30:53 - 30:54)
Oh no.
[Frank] (30:54 - 31:10)
This builder is telling me he was unloading and he goes sign the contract said the finance was sorted they just dropped an X amount of tens of thousands of dollars on the site.
Oh is this extra is this part of it? Oh I better get this checked out I'll get I'll get my finance sorted.
[Sam](31:10 - 31:13)
How do you sign a contract without having finance sorted?
[Frank] (31:13 - 31:16)
Well I think it's all comes down to that ignorance.
[Sam] (31:16 - 31:17)
Yeah.
[Frank] (31:17 - 31:20)
The problem is what does it do to the builders cash flow?
[Sam] (31:20 - 31:21)
Yeah that's right.
[Frank] (31:21 - 31:33)
You know and that person needs probably a good, person, or a couple I can’t remember who he said it was Need a good kick in the butt because that's contractually that's a pretty ordinary thing to do.
[Sam] (31:33 - 31:34)
Yeah that's right.
[Frank] (31:34 - 31:40)
Anyway, well that's a side issue. But it's building that relationship and being very clear on finance isn’t it.
[Sam] (31:40 - 31:45)
Yeah. That’s right and not leaving everything till the end. Have those conversations early.
[Frank] (31:45 - 31:52)
Yeah totally. So what do you think is the first steps you know if someone's interested in doing a passive home?
[Sam] (31:53 - 31:56)
You're probably best to engage your builder and designer at the early stage.
[Frank]
As a team
[Sam] (31:56,740 --> 00:32:21)
Yeah and I think I mean whether you go to a builder first or a designer first and I think it's necessarily an issue which way you go but they need to be in conjunction I suppose.
Like if you pick the designer first then they might be able to advise on certain builders that are in what you're trying to build and vice versa builders to designers so that like if they're getting recommended from one side then generally the collaboration is going to be better.
[Frank] (32:21 - 32:23,220
Yeah but that's how we've found it every time.
[Sam] (32:23 - 32:28)
I mean it's good to do research especially if it is a passive house you want to do, have an understanding of what that is.
[Frank] (32:30 - 32:31)
Yes.
[Sam] (32:31 - 32:33)
And I suppose what you need versus things…
[Frank] (32:33 - 32:36)
Being real, really understand what it is.
[Sam] (32:36 - 32:39)
Yeah and then a big thing as well is probably needs and wants isn't it?
[Frank]
Very much so.
[Sam] (32:39 - 32:57)
For us like oh my budget sees but this is what I want to have. It's like well that's not necessarily a need if you want to build for this you might have to take this, this and this out or you know.
It's probably yeah having a clear understanding of what it is that they need and want and the budget and all that sort of stuff.
[Frank] (32:57 - 33:04)
And I want to reiterate it on the base build not including driveways, not including landscaping not including the deck outside all those because they're all…not quite extras.
[Sam] (33:08 - 33:21)
And people don't want to go into that. They're like oh no I'm in my house for this many square meters and blah blah blah but the reality is there's so many unknowns about that.
Like was it just the house? What did it include?
[Frank] (33:21 - 33:26)
What happened if you spent a hundred grand on driveways, fencing, landscaping, decks.
[Sam] (33:26 - 33:28)
That's right so it's like building a house…
[Frank] (33:28 - 33:29)
Pool surround.
[Sam] (33:29 - 33:35)
Plus the external services involved. And there's the design costs and the consultant costs and you know.
[Frank] (33:35 - 33:39)
That's why I talk about base build. What is the core for the house?
[Sam] (33:39 - 33:40)
Yeah.
[Frank] (33:40 - 33:42)
Everything else is what you add on.
[Sam] (33:42 - 33:43)
Yeah.
[Frank] (33:43 - 33:48)
And your budget has to be…if you want that done your budget has to allow for that.
[Sam] (33:48 – 34:06)
Yeah, And I think that's where the collaboration early between all of the parties gets the best outcome because there's A multiple people talking about it and educating and guiding the client through that process and the actual costs that they might incur along the way.
[Frank] (34:06 - 34:15)
Yeah. So if someone's interested in asking us to learn more about it, would you recommend to go to the Passive House Association? That's the best place to get free information.
[Sam] (34:15 – 34:30)
There's the Australian Passive House Association and then there's the Passive House Institute as well. And then yeah, I mean locally you could talk to people that are in the industry I suppose.
[Frank] (34:30 - 34:33)
But you're one of the few builders up here in Launceston that’s done it?
[Sam] (34:33 - 34:36)
Yeah, yeah. So we're one of the few. Yeah.
[Frank] (34:36 - 34:37)
So you're the guy to talk to?
[Sam]
00:34:37,020 --> 00:34:38,500
Yeah, I'd like to think so.
[Frank] (34:38 - 34:40)
Until the other guys actually build them.
[Sam] (34:40 - 34:41)
Yeah.
[Frank] (34:41 - 34:43)
As in fully stamped, plaque on the wall.
[Sam] (34:43 - 34:44)
Yeah, that's right.
[Frank] (34:44 - 34:45)
The tattoo on the arm...
[Sam] (34:45 - 35:11)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it might be a bit far from me, but...But no, I think, yeah, those, I mean obviously the online ones with the Passive Institute and Australian Passive House are probably big, big starting points, but I think if you can get industry knowledge about the local area, that's going to help a lot as well.
You're designing for your climate zones and what works and what doesn't here. Yeah.
[Amelia] (35:12 - 35:17)
And you're available on social media if people want to reach out to you directly?
[Sam] (35:17 - 35:21)
Yeah, yeah. So we've got, yeah, Facebook and Instagram and...
[Frank] (35:21 - 35:23)
Yeah, I love my Instagram.
[Sam] (35:23 - 35:25)
Yeah, yeah, do a bit of work on there at the moment.
[Frank] (35:25 - 35:26)
It’s great.
[Sam] (35:26 - 35:39)
Yeah, just, yeah, more of an education. I mean, I don't get on there too much, but yeah, I think just with the education side around, yeah, what Passive House is and the benefits is a big thing.
And then, yeah, just doing that sort of...
[Frank] (35:39 - 35:43)
I think it's great you're doing that on the Insta. Yeah, I think it's awesome.
[Amelia] (35:43 - 35:47)
Yeah, getting the word out there, I think that's probably the most important thing.
[Sam] (35:47 - 35:48)
Yeah, that's right.
[Amelia] (35:48 - 35:50)
Get an understanding of what it is.
[Sam] (35:50 - 35:55)
Yeah, because there's probably a lot of unknowns still and misconceptions, like you said. So...
[Frank] (35:55 - 35:58)
Hopefully it doesn’t go down like the word sustainable?
[Sam] (35:58 - :36:13)
Yeah, and I mean, yeah, sustainable has its place for sure. And I think, you know, if it's used properly, it's a bit of a buzzword, but, yeah, like actual sustainable products and recycled products and all that stuff.
[Frank] (36:13 - 36:14)
Actual…fair dinkum.
[Sam] (36:14 - 36:20)
Yeah, there's a huge benefit to doing that, but yeah, it does get thrown around a lot. That's for sure.
[Amelia] (36:20 - 36:33)
All right. Well, thank you so much, Sam, for coming in and talking to us about Passive House. You've really enlightened us and given us a little bit more of an understanding of how it all works.
So thank you so much for coming in.
[Sam] (36:33 - 36:34)
Thanks for having me.
[Amelia] (36:34 - 36:35)
No worries.
[Frank] (36:35 - 36:37)
It’s been a pleasure, mate. Thank you very much.
[Amelia] (36:37 - 36:41)
And wrap it up there, folks. Thanks for listening to The Building Design, Prime Time Podcast.
[Frank] (36:41 - 36:42)
Catch ya’s later.
[OUTRO] (36:51 - 36:55)
You're listening to The Building Design, Prime Time Podcast.
