E111. Building design drawings are about 25% of the work, here’s the hidden 75% you need to know

In this episode of the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast, Frank and Amelia pull back the curtain on one of the biggest misconceptions in the industry, that building designers just “draw plans.” They reveal the hidden complexity behind every project, explaining how designers must navigate five parallel systems  planning, building, site and infrastructure, technical disciplines, and title/legal implications each with its own rule book, language, and bureaucracy. These systems don’t communicate with each other, leaving homeowners stuck trying to make sense of red tape, conflicting interpretations, and ever-changing regulations.

Frank and Amelia share real-world examples of clients who faced costly setbacks after venturing too far outside the planning scheme and offer practical advice on how to avoid the same fate. They discuss the importance of due diligence before purchasing land or beginning an extension and explain why the true value of a designer lies in their ability to coordinate, interpret, and translate across all these systems and what can go wrong if you decide to coordinate these aspects yourself without the know how. 

Whether you’re planning to build, renovate, or simply want to understand what really happens behind the scenes, this episode will give you a whole new appreciation for the role of a building designer,  the professionals who “speak all five languages, so you don’t have to.”

An episode not to be missed be sure to subscribe so you don't miss and episode! 

About us
Prime Design is a building design company locally owned and operated in Tasmania since 2004.  Our goal is to share as much valuable information as possible about the process of building design, extensions, and more. We will talk about a different topic each week. To suggest a topic you would like us to talk about contact us at info@primedesigntas.com.au

Disclaimer
The information provided on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice, individual circumstances, or remedy. We strongly suggest you consult a qualified professional before taking any action based on the information provided in this podcast. The views, opinions, and information provided in this podcast are those of the hosts  do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organisation, employer, or company.  All content provided on this podcast is provided “as is” without warranty of any kind. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this podcast and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses,  or damages arising from its use. We reserve the right to change content or delete any information provided on this podcast at any time without prior notice.

Transcript

E111. Building design drawings are only about 25% of the work, here’s the hidden 75% you need to know

[INTRO] (0:08 - 0:42)

Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast, focused on providing valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We'll share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designer's perspective. 

[Amelia]

Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast. I'm your host, Amelia. And once again, we're joined by Frank Geskus.

[Frank] (0:42 - 0:44)

Hi Amelia. Happy Thursday.

[Amelia] (0:44 - 0:46)

Yeah, we're doing it on a different day today.

[Frank] (0:47 - 0:52)

And thankfully, the weather's tidied up. Gee, it's been rotten weather in Tassie.

[Amelia] (0:52 - 0:55)

It's been awful. We've had wind, we've had rain.

[Frank] (0:56 - 0:57)

And both, a crazy wind.

[Amelia] (0:57 - 0:59)

Yes, we've had flooding.

[Frank] (0:59 - 1:05)

And then yesterday, it was off its head all over the state. And then Sydney was 40 degrees.

[Amelia] (1:05 - 1:07)

I did hear about that. It's insane.

[Frank] (1:07 - 1:08)

It's bonkers.

[Amelia] (1:09 - 1:10)

Ridiculous. What is going on?

[Frank] (1:11 - 1:11)

It's just weird.

[Amelia] (1:12 - 1:12)

Very weird.

[Frank] (1:13 - 1:15)

Anyway, the ground is well saturated.

[Amelia] (1:16 - 1:16)

Oh, definitely.

[Frank] (1:17 - 1:18)

It's been going since July.

[Amelia] (1:19 - 1:20)

Yeah.

[Frank] (1:20 - 1:22)

So, not much of a spring so far.

[Amelia] (1:23 - 1:24)

Not really, no.

[Frank] (1:24 - 1:28)

But the garden's looking good. It's just growing. I just can't mow it because it's so soggy.

[Amelia] (1:28 - 1:30)

Yeah, no, that's fair. That's fair.

[Frank] (1:31 - 1:31)

Yes.

[Amelia] (1:31 - 1:39)

So, we're kind of trying to debunk a bit of a myth here, I think. Obviously, building designers, they draw up plans, correct?

[Frank] (1:39 - 1:40)

Yeah.

[Amelia] (1:40 - 1:42)

But that's not all they do.

[Frank] (1:42 - 1:57)

That is correct. And can I just say, we love being creative. We love drawing.

And especially with the software we have nowadays, the 3D modelling, we just love it because you can just express so much more and come up with cool designs and we can share that.

[Amelia] (1:57 - 2:08)

Yeah, it's very cool that, you know, that we get to do that. But to be fair, like, it's really only a very small portion of the larger picture of getting a house built.

[Frank] (2:08 - 2:21)

Yeah. And I suppose what we're going to talk about today is what we do. It's not just draw plans.

Listen, understand, you know, the customer and then draw their ideas, their dreams or solutions.

[Amelia] (2:21 - 2:36)

Exactly. And I wouldn't say it's an easy process to understand. For your average punter, there's so much terminology, so much to try and understand.

And, you know, you probably, most people don't probably understand a large portion of it and how it works.

[Frank] (2:37 - 3:35)

Very much so. We've been analysing this a bit just to try and get it across as simple as possible. Look, end of the day, building design isn't just about drawing plans.

It's navigating the five parallel systems, or the rule books, the bureaucracy, the red tape, whatever you want to call it. And what we need to emphasise here, five different paths or systems and they don't talk to each other. And even the language they use doesn't actually match sometimes.

So when we train people in-house to do this, it is complex. It's hard. And we've had to build lots and lots of internal documents to help people understand this.

And we give this to our customers as well to try and simplify it. So at times we find it very difficult to navigate some of these and the complexity of it. So how does an average person that wants to organise their own planning or building approval or organise their own sub-consultants or have to deal with Tas Water or the councils, what chance have they got?

[Amelia] (3:35 - 3:41)

Well, how do they even know who they have to contact? How do they know what their overlays are? What's affected?

[Frank] (3:42 - 3:42)

Who, what, where, how?

[Amelia] (3:43 - 3:43)

Exactly.

[Frank] (3:44 - 4:35)

Yeah, exactly right. So as we said, most people think we just draw. But what you'll find is that the drawings are great, the 3D layouts, but then that's only a portion of what we do and it's getting bigger and bigger of dealing with paperwork and administration to ticking all the boxes.

So how do we deal with the five disconnected systems? And that's what we want to talk about, in making you aware. But if they don't talk to each other, who's going to do it?

It's either going to be your building designer, your architect, the building surveyor can point you in the right direction, but they're not allowed to help you do stuff. And so many people, look, I'm going to be blunt here, if your designer or architect only does the drawings for you, who the hell's going to organise the rest of the red tape and approvals?

[Amelia] (4:35 - 4:39)

Well, I guess it's left to whoever the customer is. It's up to you.

[Frank] (4:39 - 4:46)

And if you don't understand language, you're stuffed. It's going to take you forever. You're going to be frustrated as hell.

And unless you've done it before, it's just going to do your heading.

[Amelia] (4:47 - 4:50)

Not to mention the timing of when you need these things.

[Frank] (4:50 - 4:52)

Oh, very much so. It's all about timing.

[Amelia] (4:52 - 4:55)

Trying to coordinate it all. Your project's going to be so delayed.

[Frank] (4:56 - 4:59)

I use a term in the office that we look at the overlap.

[Amelia] (5:00 - 5:00)

Yes.

[Frank] (5:00 - 5:14)

So while something's getting approved and we're on the right track, then we implement this to then get another approval or engage another consultant. And we overlap as much as possible. Where it falls over is when you get one of those items as a sticking point.

[Amelia] (5:15 - 5:15)

Yes.

[Frank] (5:15 - 5:17)

It could be bushfire. It could be wastewater.

[Amelia] (5:17 - 5:18)

And it holds it up?

[Frank] (5:18 - 5:20)

It can hold it up for, like, six months.

[Amelia] (5:20 - 5:21)

Yeah, yep.

[Frank] (5:22 - 6:03)

Because of some underlying rule that we didn't know of or some weird plant that's in the way that we didn't know. And to be fair, all these overlays are there for a reason, but we really want to identify this stuff as early as possible, advise the client and say, right, before we start here, I want to get a soil test. I need a flora and fauna. I need a geotech, wastewater geotech. Let's just say. Or even on a more simple block. You've got an easement out the back. I want to know where that pipe is. What does it matter?

It's in the easement. It doesn't matter. We still need to locate it because it's a requirement and we want to get that as early as possible because it may affect...

[Amelia] (6:03 - 6:04)

Where you can put...

[Frank] (6:04 - 6:16)

Put anything on your site because it actually restricts. So you might have anywhere between a 400 to 800 square metre standard block and it may be reduced down by 10% or 20% because of the easements.

[Amelia] (6:17 - 6:17)

Yes.

[Frank] (6:18 - 6:32)

But I should say not just the easement. It could be with a pipe because you could have... There's the line on the plan on your title.

So, hey, that's the easement, but the pipe might be in there by 500 millimetres. That means you've got to have a certain distance from the pipe, not the easement.

[Amelia] (6:33 - 6:33)

Yes.

[Frank] (6:34 - 6:50)

How do you know that? So these are those things. So if you've got a designer, an architect, that is not willing to find this stuff out early, I would really question you should use them because if they're not willing to sort this out, that means your design may not work.

[Amelia] (6:50 - 6:50)

Yes.

[Frank] (6:50 - 7:01)

So that's just my point of view. It's all encompassing. Your designer or your architect should be able to do everything and if they don't, who else is going to do it for you?

Very difficult.

[Amelia] (7:01 - 7:01)

Yes.

[Frank] (7:02 - 7:14)

And one of the most critical ones, who's going to collate all the documents to go for building approval and plumbing approval? Right at the end. The critical piece to actually make you start.

Who's going to put all that together and do all the checklists?

[Amelia] (7:14 - 7:15)

That's a good point.

[Frank] (7:15 - 7:37)

Because if you give it to the building surveyor and you're missing something, well, what happens? Well, it just stops. Wait for that information.

So you could be, oh, sorry, you needed to get this report. It's on that list. Or you needed to get approval from council for a managerial approval for this.

Well, I didn't know. Well, that's not bad luck. It's still got to be done and it could take you months.

[Amelia] (7:37 - 7:37)

Yes.

[Frank] (7:38 - 7:44)

So your builder's going to start but you haven't got that approved and you could be out by months and the builder's walked off and I'm doing another job.

[Amelia] (7:45 - 7:45)

Yes.

[Frank] (7:45 - 8:09)

That's the harsh reality. So why drawings and design equals design completion? This whole organised planning, engineering survey approvals, be aware that what you're paying for doesn't include all these items.

Straight off the bat. Now, I've had plenty of people say, oh, you're far too expensive because we've included everything, all bar the council fees.

[Amelia] (8:09 - 8:10)

Yes.

[Frank] (8:10 - 8:14)

But then they go to someone else, oh, it's only cost me this much but all they're getting is the plans.

[Amelia] (8:14 - 8:16)

Yeah, they don't realise that, some of them.

[Frank] (8:16 - 8:37)

So if you're not getting your fees for all this and they also have a clause in there that will help sort out and coordinate who's the professional looking after this. So that's just my little soapbox thing. And that's why we've built our business the way it is because we understand the complexity.

So where the professional creates the design should be the one coordinating it. Otherwise, you're paying for a drawing, not a solution.

[Amelia] (8:37 - 8:38)

Yeah, that's true.

[Frank] (8:38 - 8:59)

So what are the five parallel systems? And we're going to have to put all this online, a little bit of a document to help people realise what it is. So number one is the planning system, your zoning, your overlays, your acceptable solutions and your performance criteria.

Okay? Straightforward. Not.

[Amelia] (8:59 - 9:09)

It's really not. I get so confused and I'm literally in the process of going through all of this myself. And I still get confused and I've been working here for over five years.

[Frank] (9:09 - 9:55)

Yep, that's right. And this is where it's really important to let a professional... And we'll put a hand up if it's beyond us.

We'll get a professional planner in if need be. So the second parallel system is building, which is the National Construction Code, CBOS. This is Tasmanians.

So this is our body that overviews our construction industry and sets rules, and they have certain rules in there. And to be fair, they haven't done a bad job of it. And the director's determinations, which are very specific rules for certain areas.

They also have, in Tasmania, which no other state has, is minimum documentation standard for class 1s, which is houses. We have to document to a minimum.

[Amelia] (9:55 - 9:56)

Yes.

[Frank] (9:56 - 9:58)

Which is a great idea.

[Amelia] (9:58 - 10:01)

I don't understand why the other states don't have that.

[Frank] (10:01 - 10:13)

Oh, nor do I. So bottom line is everyone has to supply all these drawings, so then it makes it easier for the builder, more accurate costings and less chance of disputes. It's so simple.

[Amelia] (10:13 - 10:14)

Yes.

[Frank] (10:14 - 10:27)

So how do you know what you're getting is going to pass through all these five parallel systems easily? Yeah. Hopefully New South Wales get their act together because it's going to save time, money and disputes.

[Amelia] (10:27 - 10:31)

Yeah. It makes it easier to try and compare apples with apples too, I guess.

[Frank] (10:32 - 10:40)

Yeah, New South Wales, I thought they were on a really good trajectory and now they've just hit pause. They've got class 2s and 3s and they haven't even included class 1, which is the biggest class.

[Amelia] (10:40 - 10:40)

Yeah.

[Frank] (10:41 - 11:13)

Dumb. Short-sightedness. What a surprise from pollies.

Site and infrastructure. So this is what comes into your block. You may have sewer, stormwater.

You may have power, NBN. Then you've got crossovers getting into it, your access into the site. So all these things add up.

Like in Tasmania, it's TasWater, TasNetworks, the councils for stormwater, councils for crossovers and you've got the NBN. Oh, and TasGas. You need to know where this stuff is and does it affect you?

[Amelia] (11:13 - 11:22)

And I think what people need to realise as well is that before we even start drawing like anything at all, we have to know this stuff.

[Frank] (11:23 - 11:23)

Pretty simple, isn't it?

[Amelia] (11:23 - 11:24)

Yeah.

[Frank] (11:24 - 11:27)

I know plenty of people that don't. Plenty of designers and architects that don't.

[Amelia] (11:27 - 11:27)

Really?

[Frank] (11:28 - 12:37)

I am dead set. Anyway, that's a whole other thing. The technical disciplines.

This is number four. This is your structural engineer and I'm also going to throw in civil engineer and at times hydraulics engineer, depending on the complexity of the site. Your geotechnical guy, your dirt tester, your bushfire assessor, your thermal assessor just to work out what star rating your house is and how well it's going to perform thermally.

Your land surveying component, your titles, your boundaries. So these are that technical side we were talking about before. And all these will affect the cost, affect the performance.

Then you've got the last one and not by least any less important. None of these are less important. Title and legal, covenants, easements, strata, if you've got a strata, part five agreements and then all the regulations involved in those.

You may have an old title that might be 180 odd years old. It has challenges because it's really, really old and this could be to do with extensions. You need to know where the pipes are within those easements.

Here's a scary thought for you. How about you've got a pipe that's not in an easement?

[Amelia] (12:38 - 12:39)

Yeah, that's concerning.

[Frank] (12:39 - 12:41)

Very common in Tasmania because of our old infrastructure.

[Amelia] (12:42 - 12:43)

What are the rules around that? Is there still a distance…

[Frank] (12:44 - 12:47)

It comes under the Pipeline Act.

[Amelia] (12:47 - 12:47)

Okay.

[Frank] (12:47 - 12:50)

So it falls back to the Pipeline Act. You've got to stay away from the asset.

[Amelia] (12:51 - 12:54)

Yep. So there'd be X amount of metres you've got to stay away from.

[Frank] (12:54 - 13:00)

Yeah, there's a certain distance and criteria that we need to do. But again, that's for us as professionals to organise that.

[Amelia] (13:01 - 13:01)

Yes.

[Frank] (13:02 - 13:07)

All these, these five parallel systems are part of that 75%.

[Amelia] (13:07 - 13:18)

Yes. And the design is just the 25. 

[Frank]

That's what we're estimating.

[Amelia]

That's still a big component though because that's, you know, that's still a lot of pages of drawing.

[Frank] (13:18 - 13:39)

Oh, very much so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So each one of these have their own forms, their own timelines, their own language.

This is the wild thing. The wording is just, wow. And we've just learnt all the wording over time.

And they barely acknowledge each other. So it's our job at Prime to make sure they all align for each project.

[Amelia] (13:39 - 13:44)

That's a big job. When you think about what a builder does and what they have to coordinate.

[Frank] (13:45 - 13:50)

Oh, builders' jobs are insane now. Like the coordination level is off its head.

[Amelia] (13:50 - 13:55)

But a designer has a level of responsibility in terms of that as well.

[Frank] (13:56 - 13:59)

On the, to get it to the point for a permit.

[Amelia] (13:59 - 13:59)

Yes.

[Frank] (13:59 - 14:08)

And they rely on the designer or architect to get that right, okay, because they're building it. Tell you what, it's pretty ugly when it goes wrong.

[Amelia] (14:09 - 14:09)

Oh, I reckon.

[Frank] (14:09 - 14:13)

So that's why you really want a professional doing this.

[Amelia] (14:13 - 14:15)

Especially if something's not picked up.

[Frank] (14:15 - 14:16)

Well, 100%.

[Amelia] (14:16 - 14:18)

And that can happen on the odd occasion.

[Frank] (14:19 - 14:26)

Or, as we have found out, there are pipes that have got no record at all. They've dug in and they've hit a pipe.

[Amelia] (14:26 - 14:27)

Wow.

[Frank] (14:27 - 14:38)

Disused. Yeah, I've seen one in particular. I got a call from the foreman and went up there.

I knew the excavator driver on the ground was caving in. Literally was caving in. It was like at the beach.

[Amelia] (14:38 - 14:39)

Oh, wow.

[Frank] (14:39 - 14:59)

Because they hit a pipe and it broke and there was water and stuff coming through it. And I said to him, fill it in now. We need to figure out what's going on here.

In the end it was a disused pipe that was full of water. So it wasn't an issue other than we had to dewater the site. It was an expense that the client wasn't expecting and we had to get the engineer involved.

It was on a public holiday too, by the way.

[Amelia] (14:59 - 15:00)

Oh.

[Frank] (15:00 - 15:26)

They called me in on a public holiday. Joys of running your own business. So the cost of disconnection. So the real world example, you know, your beautiful design can get stuck for months because TasWater approval or bushfire wasn't well organised or wasn't done well. You know, you may have to apply for a CCW at TasWater for approval while getting close to your infrastructure.

[Amelia] (15:26 - 15:27)

What's a CCW?

[Frank] (15:27 - 15:38)

Yeah, you've got me. What was it again? Certifiable.

Oh, man. Certifiable. You've caught me.

I used to know it. We'd just go CCW, bing, it sticks in your head. It's like a CLC.

[Amelia] (15:38 - 15:39)

Yeah.

[Frank] (15:39 - 15:51)

My apologies. I'm not perfect at this, but the acronyms that we use, I can't remember what the actual wording is anymore. Go figure.

[Amelia] (15:51 - 15:54)

It'll come to you probably when we finish recording.

[Frank] (15:54 - 16:20)

Probably. So what happens if there's a bushfire issue and all there was in the planning permit, there was a condition that hasn't been addressed, you know? This is hard.

If it's not in the building designer scope to do your work to sort this out, and it may cost you extra to sort it out, who's going to sort it out? The client ends up having to sort it, and they know nothing. That's for you out there in the world who don't work in this field who don't know anything about this.

[Amelia] (16:20 - 16:21)

Yes.

[Frank] (16:21 - 16:21)

And why would you want to?

[Amelia] (16:22 - 16:25)

No, exactly. And you don't know what you're looking for.

[Frank] (16:25 - 16:45)

Yeah. So with our processes, we integrate and pre-check and have things in sequence. So we won't hand over drawings and wish you luck because you're going to need it.

We will shepherd the project all the way through with the authorities. And look, to be fair, there's sometimes we get caught with some of the authorities and we can't get easy answers.

[Amelia] (16:46 - 16:54)

And I think one of the things to point out here is that we're going under the, you know, we're here in Tasmania, we're going under the Tasmanian Statewide Planning Scheme.

[Frank] (16:55 - 16:56)

Yep.

[Amelia] (16:56 - 17:20)

And that scheme is interpreted however many different ways by so many different planners, designers, architects, etc. And councils. 

[Frank]

Within the councils, yes.

[Amelia]

And, you know, if one person interprets one thing one way and one person interprets something another way and, you know, then they bang heads because not getting where you want to go makes it difficult.

[Frank] (17:21 - 17:21)

Yes.

[Amelia] (17:22 - 17:23)

And I think that's a real problem.

[Frank] (17:24 - 17:45)

It's tough. If your design doesn't meet the criteria within the planning scheme and makes it really, really hard. We've got one at the moment and I said from the start with him, he says, I don't like our chances getting this through planning.

Bob's your uncle, we got a request for more information (RFI) from the council and it's like three pages long. But the client wanted this.

[Amelia] (17:45 - 17:46)

Yes.

[Frank] (17:46 - 17:52)

So now we're going to go back to sit down and, well, we've got to go through these items. This is going to cost you thousands.

[Amelia] (17:52 - 17:52)

Yes.

[Frank] (17:53 - 18:15)

Possibly tens of thousands of getting additional reports and what not to justify what you want to do because you're so out of the requirements. There was about seven or eight who knew this. We warned them, but they were adamant to keep going with this.

So, anyway, this is the risk you take, too, when you go too far out of the acceptable solutions underneath the planning scheme.

[Amelia] (18:15 - 18:28)

And it's another reason why we recommend, you know, if you're going to go buy a block land or, you know, you want to do that extension to do your due diligence beforehand and make sure you can do what you want to do.

[Frank] (18:28 - 18:37)

Oh, and we've disappointed people once we found out, but at least they hadn't spent tens of thousands of dollars of getting approvals when you said, well, I don't know if we can get this through.

[Amelia] (18:37 - 18:42)

And the thing is, they could get all these reports and they could still go, no, we're not going to put this through.

[Frank] (18:43 - 18:44)

Yes. Had that. And that's how it's happened.

[Amelia] (18:44 - 18:46)

Yeah.

[Frank] (18:48 - 19:33)

So, as we were saying before, the design, it's not the easiest part, but it's the most enjoyable. And that's why we do this. But the coordination is the real work.

[Amelia]

Yes. 

[Frank]

It's the technical side. You can hire anyone to draw a plan for you. That's fine. But you need someone to deliver. End of the day, we're professional translators of all these parallel systems.

And to be able to do that takes years and years of training and working in that space. So, before you start looking for a designer or architect, really research who you want to take you from that sketch to that permit. And if you can't find anyone that was willing to do the whole lot, well, you have to have a real hard think.

Do you want to do it?

[Amelia] (19:33 - 19:34)

Yes.

[Frank] (19:34 - 19:37)

So, we speak all five languages, so you don't have to.

[Amelia] (19:38 - 19:47)

Yeah. Yep. It's all packaged up, all organised for you, so that you've got all your permits.

All you have to really do is get your builder.

[Frank] (19:48 - 19:57)

Yeah. But also, no BS advice either. You know, it's fair to give them what's out of the rules and whatnot, we'll advise you.

But there's things that we can't see sometimes.

[Amelia] (19:58 - 20:02)

Oh, yeah. Yeah. As I said, it's that interpretation, isn't it?

[Frank] (20:02 - 20:04)

Well, also finding it because things are buried too.

[Amelia] (20:04 - 20:05)

Yes.

[Frank] (20:05 - 20:11)

Within titles or there's been new rules that have been brought in. Rules keep changing.

[Amelia] (20:11 - 20:24)

Yes. So, take home points. 

[Frank]

That was it.

[Amelia]

Oh, really? 

[Frank]

Yeah. 

[Amelia]

Oh, okay.

[Frank]

Weren't you listening? 

[Amelia]

Yeah. It's not even Friday yet, Frank.

[Frank] (20:25 - 20:26)

Oh, it is for me.

[Amelia] (20:27 - 20:33)

Oh, lucky for some. All right, we better wrap it up there, folks. Thanks for listening to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast.

[Frank] (20:33 - 20:34)

Catch ya’s later.

[OUTRO] (20:43 - 20:47)

You're listening to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast.