E112. Navigating regulatory differences and interpretations from state to state

In this episode of the Building Design, Prime Time podcast, Amelia and Frank pull back the curtain on one of the biggest challenges in Australia’s building and design industry, the lack of communication and consistency between systems, departments, and even states. Following on from their previous podcast discussion about the five key systems involved in every building project, they dive deeper into how these systems often operate in isolation, creating confusion, delays, and frustration for homeowners and professionals alike.

Frank explains how licensing requirements, building codes, and approval processes differ drastically between states, and how even the National Construction Code (NCC) is interpreted differently depending on where you build. From bushfire regulations and thermal performance standards to planning terminology and Tasmanian-specific requirements, the pair highlight just how complex the landscape really is.

They also explore how Tasmania’s CBOS system and statewide planning scheme have helped improve consistency, while acknowledging that constant regulation changes and communication barriers between authorities still pose major challenges. Throughout the episode, Amelia and Frank share their insights on how Prime Design acts as the “translator” between these disconnected systems, bringing together planners, engineers, surveyors, and councils to ensure clients’ projects move smoothly through approvals.

If you’ve ever wondered why building can feel so complicated, or what really goes on behind the scenes to get your permits approved, this episode is a must-listen. It’s a revealing look at the hidden complexity of Australia’s building process and how expert coordination makes all the difference.

An episode not to be missed! If you love this episode be sure to subscribe so you don't miss any in the future. 

About us
Prime Design is a building design company locally owned and operated in Tasmania since 2004.  Our goal is to share as much valuable information as possible about the process of building design, extensions, and more. We will talk about a different topic each week. To suggest a topic you would like us to talk about contact us at info@primedesigntas.com.au

Disclaimer
The information provided on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice, individual circumstances, or remedy. We strongly suggest you consult a qualified professional before taking any action based on the information provided in this podcast. The views, opinions, and information provided in this podcast are those of the hosts do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organisation, employer, or company. All content provided on this podcast is provided “as is” without warranty of any kind. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this podcast and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, or damages arising from its use. We reserve the right to change content or delete any information provided on this podcast at any time without prior notice.

Transcript

E112. Navigating regulatory differences and interpretations from state to state 

[INTRO] (0:08 - 0:24)

Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast, focused on providing valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We'll share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designer's perspective.

[Amelia] (0:24 - 0:42)

Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast. I'm your host, Amelia, and once again, we're joined by Frank Geskus.

[Frank] (0:42 - 0:44)

Hi, Amelia. What are we talking about today?

[Amelia] (0:44 - 1:01)

Well, it's a bit of a follow on from our previous podcast. So we thought we'd have a little bit of a chat about how, you know, we talked about the five different systems in the last podcast. And we thought this one, we would dive a little bit deeper and talk about how the different departments, they don't really talk to each other.

[Frank] (1:01 - 1:05)

Well, even going further than that, every state doesn't talk to each other.

[Amelia] (1:05 - 1:17)

No, it's completely different. And we were just talking a moment ago. And you mentioned that, you know, even licensing in terms of building designers and that sort of thing.

[Frank]

And architects. 

[Amelia]

And architects, you know, they can't practice in every state.

[Frank] (1:18 - 1:51)

No, no, no, no. So Tasmania you need a separate licence to operate. You need a licence to operate.

So Victoria's the same, but different criterias. Queensland's the same. They have licence, different criterias.

You know, they're not all the same, but there is a mutual recognition system. So it's slightly different. But in New South Wales, all the territories, South Australia, Western Australia, do not require a licence.

[Amelia]

Really? 

[Frank]

Yep. So you can go out, draw to your heart's content, don't even have to carry PI insurance.

[Amelia] (1:52 - 1:52)

Wow.

[Frank] (1:53 - 1:54)

Yeah. Imagine that.

[Amelia] (1:55 - 1:58)

So anyone can just go and practice.

[Frank] (1:58 - 1:59)

Draw what they like.

[Amelia] (1:59 - 2:00)

Wow.

[Frank] (2:00 - 2:03)

I used to be here. We brought in housing. I think it was 2005.

[Amelia] (2:05 - 2:05)

Yep.

[Frank] (2:05 - 2:12)

And as much as people hated red tape, at the end of the day, we are accountable and we're carrying insurance. There is a requirement to carry insurance.

[Amelia] (2:12 - 2:19)

When you think about it too, a lot of things, if you go to someone that doesn't know what they're doing, a lot of things can go wrong.

[Frank] (2:19 - 3:37)

Considering we're talking about the five different systems that are out there, that if they're just doing a bunch of plants, that's fine. Then you're going to deal with those five different systems we spoke about in the last podcast. And those systems, and I'll just quickly go over them, was the planning system, the building system, the site and infrastructure system, the technical discipline systems, and the title and legal system.

And if someone's just doing a bunch of drawings for you, which we see a bit where a mainland designer architects, and they send something down to Tassie to go for planning approval and whatnot, and the client puts it in and then they find it's fallen short. It might comply with planning, but it doesn't comply with all the other stuff. 

[Amelia]

Yes.

[Frank]

There's a big risk. So with that in mind, we're going to dive into where the disconnects are. But the biggest frustration building isn't bad design.

It's this disconnection and all these, what they call red tape. And I agree. It is red tape, but each area that we've just listed is protecting their own, and you've got to meet their requirements so things don't go wrong.

But they speak their own language, use their own software, they're running their own timeframe. And part of the reason we exist is to join the dots and make sure the project moves forward and you get a permit.

[Amelia] (3:38 - 3:38)

Yes.

[Frank] (3:38 - 3:50)

So here's why buildings drive people mad. Council doesn't like talking to the water authority or sewer authority, even though they are part owner. Go figure that one out.

[Amelia]

Really? 

[Frank]

Didn't you know?

[Amelia] (3:50 - 3:50)

No.

[Frank] (3:51 - 3:52)

Council's part owner, TasWater.

[Amelia] (3:53 - 3:54)

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Frank] (3:54 - 3:56)

In Tasmania, because it used to be all council infrastructure.

[Amelia] (3:57 - 3:58)

Yeah, I guess that makes sense.

[Frank] (3:59 - 4:14)

Yeah, anyway. TasWater doesn't like talking to the building surveyor, because that's up to the designer or someone to sort that crap out. The engineer doesn't want to talk to a planner, because they only do engineering, and the planner does planning.

But your project relies on all of them to sign off in the right order.

[Amelia] (4:14 - 4:15)

Yes.

[Frank] (4:15 - 4:17)

So it gets a little bit messy.

[Amelia] (4:17 - 4:18)

I reckon.

[Frank] (4:18 - 5:01)

So how did we get here? So the National Construction Code, one rule book in theory for every state, but they all have their own construction building act. And they all have their own dependencies in the back of the NCC, which is slightly different to determine their own state requirements.

But in saying that, I get what the NCC is trying to do. But it doesn't allow for enough climate zones. So if you build something here in Tassie to suit our climate zone, the same type of construction doesn't necessarily work up in the tropics in Queensland, Northern Territory.

You've got to think differently, and you've got to design differently for different purposes. We have so many different climates in Australia, and the National Construction Code probably isn't diverse enough.

[Amelia] (5:01 - 5:03)

Yeah, that's probably fair.

[Frank] (5:03 - 5:15)

And it doesn't deal with condensation and health of homes anywhere near where it has to, and I think it's a big problem. That's a whole other issue. That's a whole other…

Gee, do a big discussion about that.

[Amelia] (5:15 - 5:15)

Yes.

[Frank] (5:16 - 5:18)

Oh, we had that with Clarence when we were on talking about…

[Amelia] (5:18 - 5:18)

We did.

[Frank] (5:19 - 5:42)

You know, that was how we deal with it in Tasmania. And also the state government, the CBOS, were very proactive in trying to deal with condensation with building details. So the other part here in Tasmania of CBOS is the director's determinations, where they decide what's exempt, notifiable, permit, local interpretations for the National Code.

[Amelia] (5:43 - 5:49)

So this is like, I guess you could call it like an offshoot of the NCC that's specific to Tasmania?

[Frank] (5:49 - 6:08)

Very much so. Yeah. So then the same happens elsewhere in New South Wales.

We've got practice notes, the Victoria Bulletins, New South, the Queensland Ministerial Standards. But the national rules are interpreted six different ways because of each state in a sense. It's all about interpretation.

[Amelia] (6:08 - 6:08)

Yes.

[Frank] (6:08 - 6:11)

But you've also got to make it so the building lasts for a long period of time.

[Amelia] (6:12 - 6:12)

That's right.

[Frank] (6:12 - 6:34)

So anyway, that's where it gets really interesting. So then you go into different dialects everywhere. The bushfire regs, Tas bushfire prone areas versus New South Wales PBB versus the Vic BAL overlays.

Now, every state's done their own thing because of the bushfire risks. And everyone knows Australia's known for its bushfires.

[Amelia] (6:35 - 6:35)

Yes.

[Frank] (6:35 - 6:37)

And killing hundreds of people.

[Amelia] (6:38 - 6:38)

Yes.

[Frank] (6:38 - 7:05)

And putting millions if not billions of dollars destroyed or at risk. This stuff's serious. And I know I get lots of groans and complaints from people and customers.

But at the end of the day, it's done for a reason and it's getting better and better in so far as making it very clear what you have to do. But don't think you can come down, if you come from the mainland and I want to go build a house in the middle of the bush because I can do it in New South Wales, you can't necessarily do it here.

[Amelia] (7:05 - 7:08)

No, you can't build in a flame zone here.

[Frank] (7:08 - 7:12)

Yeah, or BAL 40. It's very, very different.

[Amelia] (7:12 - 7:15)

But on the mainland, there are areas that you can.

[Frank] (7:15 - 7:50)

Yep, yep. Thermal compliance. Tasmania has stuck to six star.

I believe New South Wales and Victoria have all gone seven star. Other states have put a pause on it. So that's a difference in thermal comfort.

And I've expressed this before I worry about the seven star push when they haven't considered solutions about condensation, which will then make sick homes. I reckon it's going to come back to bite them. In New South Wales, they have the BASICS system on top of the normal NatHers rating.

And I believe it goes into a lot more detail.

[Amelia] (7:50 - 7:52)

Is that to try and achieve the seven stars?

[Frank] (7:52 - 7:57)

It's a bit different. It's a different process. And I'm not going to get into it because I'm not an expert on it.

[Amelia] (7:57 - 8:00)

We need a thermal performance assessor for that.

[Frank] (8:01 - 8:03)

Toby spoke about that last time. We'll have to get him in again.

[Amelia] (8:04 - 8:04)

Yeah, we will.

[Frank] (8:04 - 8:28)

We haven't spoken to Toby for a while, have we? 

[Amelia]

We haven't. 

[Frank]

See what he's up to.

Planning terminology. Again, I believe we're very fortunate in Tasmania that we have the State Planning Commission. And some people would think I'm a nutter saying that.

But we have a statewide planning scheme. So then General Res is the same on every municipality and every planning scheme of all 28-odd councils that we have.

[Amelia] (8:28 - 8:30)

We have a lot of councils.

[Speaker 1] (8:30 - 8:31)

For 500,000 people.

[Amelia] (8:31 - 8:31)

Yes.

[Frank] (8:32 - 8:33)

We're not going to discuss that.

[Amelia] (8:33 - 8:34)

No.

[Frank] (8:34 - 9:16)

But as I understand it, in the other states, that all municipalities, even though they have some state guidelines, can still do whatever they like and keep changing it so I can move in goalposts. Someone can correct me on that. But this is what I understand from talking to a few other designers and architects around the country.

And even the word permit or complying development is another terminology that may change. So if you're moving interstate, comparing stuff, it could be quite difficult with the wording. We have plenty of architects and the like and building designers doing work in Tasmania, but our system is very different.

[Amelia] (9:16 - 9:16)

Yes.

[Frank] (9:17 - 10:54)

And appear complex. But on the flipside, I've had the chance to work in Victoria, New South Wales, Queensland, and this is with expats and it comes down to trust factor. Hey, can you sort this out for sure?

But then what I've realised, their systems are quite different. And learning a completely new system to be efficient is really hard. It's like starting from scratch.

And you need some people to guide you on that. And I was fortunate enough to lean on a few people to assist me. But I pity anyone who doesn't have someone to do that for them.

So interstate, you've got to be very aware that the systems are quite different. So the Tasmanian twists. So specifically our stuff is the CBOS oversight, directors specified list, the risk categories, the CLC forms, the CCWs, the TAS water, all those types of things are part of what we have to get approval if required and not including titles and the terminology that is used in our title and folio agreements.

So the good thing about CBOS, they're sending out monthly newsletters with updates, changes, directors' determinations. They don't carry on like pork chops. They just send out emails with newsletters.

Funny, I just need to share this with you today. And this is where it can fall over. And last year, they brought out a change to the determinations to bring in mandatory inspections for wet area waterproofing.

It does my head in. It's one of the biggest failure rates in the country of waterproofing failures. Yet it's only since last year that you've got to have a mandatory inspection on it.

[Amelia] (10:54 - 10:55)

Crazy, isn't it?

[Frank] (10:55 - 11:32)

Yeah, it should have been on the day dot when we did licensing in Tasmania way back in 2005. Anyway, it came in. And I had an architect mate ring me up and it was like about five or six days after it was implemented, the cut-off date.

And he goes, mate, have you heard about this? Got to do this and add this to our drawings and do this, add the other in the mandatory inspection. I said, yeah.

Well, I haven't heard about it. Well, why not? CBOS has been in the newsletter.

I'm not on that. He said, how can you not be? You're licensed.

So you might have unsubscribed. Anyway, he had four projects. He had to go and modify all the drawings.

[Amelia] (11:33 - 11:33)

Really?

[Frank] (11:33 - 11:50)

Yeah, he got caught out. He was so mad. And then he started blaming his body that he's a member of.

And it's not their fault either. I mean, as a professional, we have to keep up to date with this stuff. But when you're a single operator, it's really hard.

[Amelia] (11:51 - 11:51)

Yeah.

[Frank] (11:51 - 11:59)

So much stuff flying around. So just be aware, like we talked about the five different systems, we also get five different bits of information when there's updates.

[Amelia] (11:59 - 12:00)

Yes.

[Frank] (12:00 - 12:02)

And that doesn't include the Australian standards.

[Amelia] (12:02 - 12:03)

Yes.

[Frank] (12:03 - 12:19)

Because that's like a thief in the night that changes. And they don't tell us when they change an Australian standard. Really?

Seriously. So how do you know? The building surveyor will say, hey, have you considered this standard?

Because you've referenced this standard, but it's actually to this standard. So when did that change?

[Amelia] (12:20 - 12:20)

Oh, no.

[Frank] (12:21 - 12:24)

I kid you not. It makes it tough, all the regs that keep changing.

[Amelia] (12:25 - 12:26)

Yes.

[Frank] (12:26 - 13:13)

So it's a little bit different everywhere. So then you've got different planning terminology and different processes there in different states. The planning processes are quite different.

The same drawings, different councils, different answer is a classic one. And it comes down to different interpretation. And this is also under the planning suite, different interpretation.

Also, providing the quality of drawings in Tasmania, minimum documentation standards. If you fall under that, the building surveyor will go back, hey, you haven't provided this. Or the council plumbing department goes, you haven't done this to this detail.

Or you haven't provided an engineer certificate because you're in highly reactive soil. You can put slip joints in all the plumbing, and you need an engineer to sign off on that. Yeah, it can delay projects.

[Amelia] (13:14 - 13:14)

Yeah, it would.

[Frank] (13:14 - 13:46)

And it gets expensive. But this is basically just making you aware on the complexity and the differences within our own systems, but also statewide, Australia-wide. And you've got to be on your toes all the time to make sure that you're meeting all the requirements.

So we translate and coordinate. We know who to talk to, what order, what's the best paperwork each one needs. And then our aim is to get the permits faster.

[Amelia] (13:46 - 13:47)

Yes.

[Frank] (13:47 - 13:55)

So with less headaches. So it's an internal workflow, and it's taken years and years of development, and it keeps getting adjusted as we go along.

[Amelia] (13:55 - 14:04)

It would, as there's more, you know, regulations and things that get implemented. That's more documentation, more checks.

[Frank] (14:05 - 14:05)

More coordination.

[Amelia] (14:06 - 14:06)

Yeah.

[Frank] (14:07 - 14:12)

Big coordination between designers, engineers, planners, surveyors, and the authorities. And some of the authorities we can't talk to.

[Amelia] (14:13 - 14:13)

Really?

[Frank] (14:13 - 14:34)

Yeah. So we can't submit to the environmental health officer, say, for a septic. We can't do it.

It's got to be referred from the buildings. So if we're doing commercial work, we can't refer to TAS Fire directly. If you're lucky enough to build relationships with these people in there, then you can give them a ring and talk, but it's not official.

[Amelia] (14:35 - 14:40)

It must be really frustrating, because with a lot of that stuff that we coordinate, our hands are tied.

[Frank] (14:41 - 14:42)

Some of it is, yeah.

[Amelia] (14:42 - 14:45)

We have no control over, you know, the outcome.

[Frank] (14:45 - 15:08)

No, but if you're in the game long enough and you build up a level of respect within the industry, people will talk to you, and you can get to the source to have a chat. 

[Amelia]

Yep. 

[Frank]

And then understand it better. So I suppose at the end of the day, these systems weren't designed to communicate, but your project depends on them to be able to be coordinated.

[Amelia] (15:09 - 15:09)

Yes.

[Frank] (15:10 - 15:15)

So we've learned to be the professional translator in this world.

[Amelia] (15:15 - 15:17)

Of those five different steps.

[Frank] (15:17 - 15:19)

To get your permit.

[Amelia] (15:19 - 15:20)

Yes.

[Frank] (15:20 - 15:29)

So get your sketches ready if you want to start building, you know, your ideas, your thoughts. Work with a designer or architect. Make sure they do the full package for you.

[Amelia] (15:30 - 15:33)

Or at least know exactly what you're paying for.

[Frank] (15:33 - 15:34)

Well, exactly right.

[Amelia] (15:34 - 15:48)

I think that's the important part, because you might be happy to give it a crack and arrange all your own permits and that sort of thing. 

[Frank]

Yep, yep. 

[Amelia]

Not that that's probably something we would recommend if it's something you don't know much about.

[Frank] (15:49 - 16:05)

So we're going to put something together, a bit of a guide that you can put online. So the five different systems of building design. So you'll be able to get that at primedesign.com.au. So then you're aware of what you need to do in a broad sense.

[Amelia] (16:05 - 16:06)

Yes.

[Frank] (16:06 - 16:13)

And what you need to expect, whoever you choose to do your design and coordinate all this stuff.

[Amelia] (16:14 - 16:18)

Exactly. Because as we said, it's not just about drawings.

[Frank] (16:19 - 16:24)

Yeah, it's exactly. Everyone's playing the same game, but with different rule books.

[Amelia] (16:25 - 16:30)

Exactly. All right, we might wrap it up there, folks. Thanks for listening to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast.

[Frank] (16:30 - 16:31)

Catch ya’s later.

[OUTRO] (16:40 - 16:43)

You're listening to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast.