E123. The biggest regulation changes affecting building over the past 15 years

Are homes today actually better than they were 25 years ago? or just more complicated?

In this episode, Frank and Amelia unpack the real impact of modern building regulations and what they mean for homeowners, builders, and anyone planning to build or renovate. From bushfire compliance and thermal performance to condensation risks and accessibility standards, this is a raw, honest look at how the industry is evolving behind the scenes.

You’ll hear why newer homes are warmer and potentially safer, but also why they’re more complex, more expensive, and far less forgiving when things go wrong. We dive into the hidden challenges many people don’t talk about, including mould risks in highly sealed homes, the growing mountain of compliance paperwork, and the education gap that still exists across the industry.

The episode also tackles big-picture questions:
 Are regulations moving faster than real-world building practices?
 Is housing becoming unaffordable because of higher standards?
 And are we truly building healthier, longer-lasting homes? or just ticking boxes?

Whether you’re planning a new build, working in the industry, or simply curious about how building standards are changing, this conversation will give you a clearer perspective on what’s really happening in modern housing.

If you want to understand the trade-offs shaping today’s homes, and the questions you should be asking before you build, this is an episode you won’t want to miss.

About us
Prime Design is a building design company locally owned and operated in Tasmania since 2004.  Our goal is to share as much valuable information as possible about the process of building design, extensions, and more. We will talk about a different topic each week. To suggest a topic you would like us to talk about contact us at info@primedesigntas.com.au

Disclaimer
The information provided on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice, individual circumstances, or remedy. We strongly suggest you consult a qualified professional before taking any action based on the information provided in this podcast. The views, opinions, and information provided in this podcast are those of the hosts do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organisation, employer, or company. All content provided on this podcast is provided “as is” without warranty of any kind. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this podcast and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, or damages arising from its use. We reserve the right to change content or delete any information provided on this podcast at any time without prior notice.

Transcript

E123. The biggest regulation changes affecting building over the past 15 years

[INTRO] (0:08 - 0:42)

Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast, focused on providing valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We'll share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designer's perspective. 

[Amelia]

Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast, I'm your host Amelia and once again we're joined by Frank Geskus.

[Frank] (0:42 - 0:46)

Hey Amelia, happy Friday. 

[Amelia]

Happy Friday. 

[Frank]

I know we keep saying it but we love Fridays.

[Amelia] (0:46 - 0:49)

We do love Fridays, we've got our wine, we're doing our podcast.

[Frank] (0:50 - 0:51)

Yeah we've got a Tasmanian Merlot.

[Amelia] (0:51 - 0:53)

It's not bad, it's very nice.

[Frank] (0:53 - 0:56)

Most Merlots aren't real great for Tasmania but this one's an absolute cracker.

[Amelia] (0:56 - 0:57)

It's very nice.

[Frank] (0:57 - 1:02)

That's a Russell Suitor Merlot 2024. Do yourself a favour, grab a bottle.

[Amelia] (1:02 - 1:03)

Yes, very nice.

[Frank] (1:04 - 1:06)

So what are we talking about?

[Amelia] (1:06 - 1:46)

Well, interestingly I was doing some social media stuff today and I was thinking about how regulations have changed over the past years and maybe this is a little bit of an opinion piece but we want to sort of go down the route of how these changes have affected the building industry in terms of regulations and has it been a positive or a negative impact and does it affect other areas of building as well because I think that's the other thing.

So what do you think has changed over the last 15 years? Are there some key areas that we can discuss about that?

[Frank] (1:46 - 3:13)

Oh definitely, definitely and it's evolved massively and we're going from the Tasmanian perspective here yet we follow the Australian construction code, also the national construction code which every state has to comply but we all have our own, every state's got their own idiosyncrasies. But since the last 15, 25 years have been significant changes. I remember when I built my first house 22 years ago, there was a big jump over what was even five years before that.

So yeah, I suppose where the changes have been is thermal efficiency, everyone knows what a star rating is in a sense because you use it on lots of different equipment’s and they use it for house measuring on thermal efficiency. We've heard about bushfire compliance because you know Australia is known for its bushfires and with total devastation so that is built into all new builds and assessments and whatnot. Condensation is becoming the new major, like I'm talking serious problems and we won't see all the final results I believe for another five to ten years.

Accessibility, how to get in and out of the house, you know when some people have disabilities, some people are injured, you know there's a whole bunch of reasons for adding this in. So yeah, we're not going to talk about big changes here but there have been big shifts in the building industry.

[Amelia] (3:14 - 3:19)

And I guess these sort of things impact the cost to the end user as well.

[Frank] (3:19 - 4:16)

Very much so, when you're trying to get your first home and we talk about this and the cost of living in Australia but just trying to get in your first home, your first castle, all these items have certainly added a significant cost. Now I say significant but if you look at the overall big picture, it's still not as big as what people think because there are trade-offs with some of these things. But I want to point out what we're going to talk about, we're not trying to blame anyone, we're not trying to, it's not trying to be political or you know I'm all about doing it this way or doing it that way, I just want to express experiences that we've had as building designers in Tasmania and how it's affected certain projects over a period of time.

I'll share some examples and even personal ones myself but please understand what they're trying to do with these regs is generally try and make better houses.

[Amelia] (4:16 - 4:16)

Yes.

[Frank] (4:17 - 4:19)

And as we go through it I think some of it's misguided.

[Amelia] (4:20 - 4:20)

Yeah.

[Frank] (4:20 - 4:45)

Because there's one big thing about the National Construction Code of Australia is we are a very large country with so many different climate zones from tropics all the way to alpine and yet the building code focuses on a number of, only a number of types of ways of construction and they're trying to cater for all of it and some of it is just not suitable in some of the climate zones, just not.

[Amelia] (4:46 - 4:49)

Yeah it can be tricky to find the balance I suppose.

[Frank] (4:49 - 4:58)

Well the people that put the regulations together it's their job to be able to do this and do it well and in some cases I don't think they've done a good enough job on it.

[Amelia] (4:58 - 4:59)

Yes.

[Frank] (4:59 - 5:01)

That's just, that's where the opinion piece comes in.

[Amelia] (5:02 - 5:02)

Yeah.

[Frank] (5:02 - 5:10)

You know and we've seen it. So let's break this down, what's been good, what's been bad and downright ugly.

[Amelia] (5:10 - 5:17)

Let's talk about thermal efficiency first. So well a few states have you know gone to the seven stars.

[Frank] (5:17 - 5:17)

Yep.

[Amelia] (5:18 - 5:19)

Tasmania has not.

[Frank] (5:19 - 5:24)

No we've held fire on six. 

[Amelia]

Yes. 

[Frank]

And I'm thankful for that but not for the reasons everyone thinks.

[Amelia] (5:24 - 5:25)

Okay.

[Frank] (5:25 - 5:41)

Tasmania because of our climate we have condensation issues. We already have that at five star, six star and it's been evident. We've seen the damage, we've seen the problems and even stuff has been built as per the NCC and it's had major condensation issues.

[Amelia] (5:42 - 5:49)

And it's really difficult I think to identify because some of these houses are fine and then some of them are not fine.

[Frank] (5:49 - 5:49)

Well that's right.

[Amelia] (5:50 - 5:51)

And they still meet the regs.

[Frank] (5:51 - 6:01)

And it'll sneak up to you like a thief in the night that you've got all this black mould and horrible shit behind the plaster, under the floor, under your carpet, up in the ceiling, all sorts of stuff and you'll never know.

[Amelia] (6:01 - 6:02)

That's right.

[Frank] (6:02 - 6:18)

It's like a yeah and you wonder why people are getting crook. You know it's making unhealthy homes. You know and we've had lots of people on talking about that.

Clarence, Zara, all sorts of people and if you want to check those podcasts out. Fascinating stuff. But we should be building houses that are thermally efficient and healthy.

[Amelia] (6:19 - 6:19)

Yes.

[Frank] (6:19 - 6:56)

And the buildings are there designed to last a good period of time. So because we're in Tasmania we're going to use that as the basis of a six star. So we have to put better insulation now, better glazing, the buildings have to be tighter as in less air be able to…you know, less drafty. And make it more comfortable in our winters. 

[Amelia]

Because it's cold. 

[Frank]

It gets a little bit fresh here.

[Amelia]

Yeah. 

[Frank]

Definitely, definitely. But there is a problem with some of these too because you combine it with a few of the other topics we're coming for and bushfires specifically, the building doesn't breathe very well.

[Amelia] (6:57 - 6:58)

No.

[Frank] (6:58 - 7:13)

So where you have nice warm houses, yep, we love it and also efficient during summer as well. You don't necessarily have a healthy home because you can't get the dirty air out, the moist dirty air. You've got to open all your windows, cleanse the building.

[Amelia] (7:13 - 7:14)

Yes.

[Frank] (7:14 - 8:00)

Most people don't want to do that. Some people just run their reverse cycle air conditioning as we call in Tassie, heat pumps. 

[Amelia]

Yes.

[Frank]

Because that's generally what we've got it on for. And they got it on 24 seven. So they're just recycling the same dirty air and they never open the windows because they don't want to lose the heat out the windows when they open it.

So then you end up having problems and pretty serious problems. And it takes years for it to actually come out to being a problem. So I'm a big advocate for heat recovery ventilation systems.

And if you've been listening to podcasts for a while, you know that. So great to have a warm house, but you want to have a healthy home. I don't think the building code is one of my criticisms. It hasn't moved along fast enough to deal with star rating, tightness of the building and healthy.

[Amelia] (8:00 - 8:02)

But is that poor design?

[Frank] (8:02 - 8:04)

No. It's regulation.

[Amelia] (8:04 - 8:10)

Okay. Is it only because people are not opening their windows? Like what is the exact cause?

So it's not design.

[Frank] (8:11 - 8:28)

It's a combination. How do people live in their homes? Everyone does it differently.

Hang your, dryer your laundry out inside. You run a, you could be running a dryer on the laundry. You don't duct it outside so all the moisture's inside.

You run your showers and you don't get the fans running.

[Amelia] (8:28 - 8:29)

Afterwards.

[Frank] (8:29 - 8:56)

Afterwards, they get rid of all the steam and moisture out of there. Those simple little things, even people, how they cook with the, you know, cause the extraction out of the range hood isn't strong enough to get all the moisture out. People with wood heaters and they put, they've got this habit of putting a pot of hot water, putting pot of water on top of them.

Cause I think they get moisture back in and get rid of the smell and stuff like that. But the moisture is in the air and increases that level of moisture. There's tons and tons of reasons.

[Amelia] (8:57 - 8:58)

Okay.

[Frank] (8:58 - 9:02)

And there's no simple thing, but it is reliant of opening your doors and windows.

[Amelia] (9:03 - 9:03)

To ventilate.

[Frank] (9:04 - 9:46)

Yeah. And a lot of people don't. And it's how you operate your home.

So the good thing is your energy bills should be a lot less. That's just a fact, you know, and that's been a good thing. Has it improved the quality of the build?

Some would say yes, some would say no. I question it because there is no inspections to check if your insulation and air leakage of your house…

[Amelia]

 has been done correctly. 

[Frank]

As per code. No one's checking it. So you pay for a star rating and that thermal assessment and you get a star rating, but no one's actually checking if everything's been installed. So you actually achieve that star rating.

[Amelia] (9:47 - 9:48)

That's a really good point.

[Frank] (9:49 - 9:56)

So that's where I think there's a big hole in the whole idea. Everyone talks about thermal efficiency, but if they don't install it and no one's checking it, it's a load of rubbish.

[Amelia] (9:56 - 10:04)

Well, haven't you said in one scenario, you've gone and had to look for insulation in the roof and they've been in their packets still up on the ceiling?

[Frank] (10:04 - 10:08)

Yeah, or gone under the floor to check something and there's no insulation under the floor.

[Amelia] (10:08 - 10:08)

Oh no.

[Frank] (10:09 - 10:14)

And yeah, and that's just fact. I've seen it. So I love getting under floors, not.

[Amelia] (10:16 - 10:18)

Especially you're very tall. 

[Frank] (10:20 - 10:37)

Yeah. So moving on from that, bushfire compliance, that has been a massive change in thinking because now houses have to be designed to meet these different bushfire ratings. We've spoken about it, but we have to do them really tight. So embers can't get in. Fair enough.

[Amelia] (10:37 - 10:38)

So there's no ventilation.

[Frank] (10:39 - 11:27)

It reduces the ventilation. So you have to put additional ventilation in to make it work. So this has also been a problem.

It fights other areas. So you tighten the thing up and the thing can't ventilate. And the building code wasn't ahead of the game on this.

We're a lot better now, CBOS in Tasmania, as much as people bag the crap out of them, they have put a lot of documents out to assist with this. They've reacted. So, and it's been quite good. But at the end of the day, bushfires are reality. Anywhere in Australia, they are. So we do need to design better houses to suit that, but the subdivisions have to be done better.

But the other side of it is, it all is worth nothing if you don't maintain your property.

[Amelia] (11:28 - 11:28)

Oh, exactly.

[Frank] (11:29 - 11:42)

Or your neighbours don't maintain their property. Your risk goes up through the roof, excuse the pun. It is just fact. If you don't maintain, your house's risks goes through the roof.

[Amelia] (11:42 - 11:44)

So- And so do you build costs.

[Frank] (11:44 - 12:06)

Or can do. If you choose the wrong block, and because people don't look at blocks on a bushfire basis, then potentially the cost is astronomical. Like in Tasmania, we're limited to BAL 29.

And we've spoken about it before, so I'm not gonna get into those details. But if you don't get the stuff right, the neighbours don't do their thing and everyone, the loss is catastrophic.

[Amelia] (12:07 - 12:07)

Oh, yes.

[Frank] (12:08 - 12:31)

All you have to look is the history in Australia. 

[Amelia]

Yes. 

[Frank]

And just whole towns and suburbs just wiped out and people dying.

It all comes down to maintenance in a lot of cases. And you can blame why there's bushfires. That's not what we're about. We're talking about when there is a bushfire that your house is going to survive. So brings us to the next one, condensation awareness.

[Amelia] (12:31 - 12:32)

Yes.

[Frank] (12:32 - 12:47)

There's been a big change in the building code, and that's of recent. I still don't think they've done anywhere near enough on that. So you put thermal efficiency with bushfire, then you add the condensation challenge with it.

All three don't seem to work together.

[Amelia] (12:47 - 12:50)

No, they all conflict, really, don't they?

[Frank] (12:50 - 13:59)

Yes. So vapour management's become part of the design. So in Tasmania, and it's in the building code too, but I don't know how many other states take it seriously, is that we vent the walls and we vent the roofs and vent the floors.

And it's taken very seriously. Again, whether all builders are educated well on this, that's debatable. But it is very critical for the construction detail, especially in the walls, so the wall can actually vent.

This is the thing that gets me. We now have to put membranes, not the old silver paper. You put these breathable membranes in.

Yet I know a building surveyor told me, you wouldn't believe this, I knocked back an inspection they had half bricked the house and had old silver paper on it. This was only last year. 

[Amelia]

Oh ok. 

[Frank]

And he goes, why is that on the wall? That's illegal, you can't do that. And he says, oh, it's what the hardware store gave us. So he made them pull down all the brickwork and redo it all. They're about halfway through. I think I shared that story before, but it's like, ah, dumb. And the owner shouldn't have to pay for that. That's a tradie error, because it's clearly on the drawings.

[Amelia] (13:59 - 14:00)

I was going to say, it would have been specified.

[Frank] (14:01 - 14:18)

Yes. So the exhaust ventilation has become more deliberate when it comes to condensation, the membranes. And I still don't believe people understand how to vent their homes.

But I'll keep talking about heat recovery ventilation systems. They are gold.

[Amelia] (14:19 - 14:19)

Yes.

[Frank] (14:19 - 14:29)

So no one's really spoken about this problem, because it's a hidden problem. I've seen plenty of houses where they're doing renos, you go in and there's strips of black mould down the studs, each side.

[Amelia] (14:30 - 14:30)

Yuck.

[Frank] (14:30 - 14:46)

It's there. It's plain to see. So it's hidden.

You don't see it. This is the next major shift that needs to happen. And I don't, shouldn't be a big cost involved in this.

It's just a bit of common sense with this stuff, but we want healthy homes. I want healthy homes for everyone.

[Amelia] (14:47 - 14:48)

Oh, I agree.

[Frank] (14:48 - 14:56)

But some builders are awesome. They're anal over this stuff and they do it so well. Other builders are not as, have a...

[Amelia] (14:56 - 14:57)

A bit complacent. 

[Frank] (14:57 - 14:58)

Complacent. There's a great word for it.

[Amelia] (14:58 - 14:58)

Yes.

[Frank] (14:59 - 15:13)

The next thing has been accessible living. And this has only just come in the last few years under the building code. And there's been, gee, there's been a lot of contention about this, especially in Tasmania, because guess what? Tasmania is not real flat.

[Amelia] (15:13 - 15:14)

No.

[Frank] (15:15 - 15:17)

Launceston's in a valley. Hobart's in a valley.

[Amelia] (15:17 - 15:18)

We have lots of hills.

[Frank] (15:19 - 15:25)

Yeah, lots of hills. But you've got Devonport, Ulverstone, Burnie, a lot better. Mind you, you've got outside of Burnie, it's steep as.

[Amelia] (15:25 - 15:25)

True.

[Frank] (15:26 - 16:30)

They talk about step-free entry, access to the front entry, wider doors, hobless showers, you know, just rolling showers, reinforced bathroom walls that can fit bars off it, you know, and just good spaces between benches as well, and common sense placement of doors into spaces as well. Half this stuff isn't rocket science, but builders are complaining it's costing lots and lots of extra money. I believe it comes down to the designers designing it properly too.

There is a problem with the entry door threshold because of the way they've shown it under the code. You can't get compliance under the National Construction Code. 

[Amelia]

Oh, really?

[Frank]

Yeah. Especially not brick veneer and trying to get weep holes in. Same with lightweight cladding because the cladding has to have clearance to, you know, to concrete. So there is a major problem with that. If you've got a garage, you enter through the garage, it's a lot easier, but I won't get into the details. But I believe all houses should be built in such a way that it makes life easier for people.

[Amelia] (16:30 - 16:33)

Especially as they go through stages of life.

[Frank] (16:33 - 17:29)

Yep. Ageing population, you know, Australia is ageing fast because we're not, yeah, there's not as many babies as there used to be. And then it's a smart long-term thing.

You can stay in your house longer, and that is a good thing, you know? 

[Amelia]

Yes. 

[Frank]

You don't need to go to a specialised facility.

You can be nursed in home as you get older. But the problem is in Tasmania where, yeah, we've got some pretty steep sites, really steep, then how do you get up there? How do you manoeuvre around the house?

So I believe there's some exemptions that are going to be put in place, or exemptions, that's not the right word, dispensations, to be able to, well, that house is that steep, you're not going to be in there if you're restricted, you know, you can't walk easily or can't access, or two-storey homes. They're not going to make you put a lift in, but they'll make you put a toilet in on the ground floor. And I was thinking, what's the point of that? You need to get to the main living area.

[Amelia] (17:29 - 17:31)

Which is probably up the stairs.

[Frank] (17:31 - 17:33)

Up the stairs. Well, that ain't going to work.

[Amelia] (17:33 - 17:33)

No.

[Frank] (17:33 - 17:47)

For some people. So then it's also choosing the right type of house too then. So I think it's a very good thing, and I think designers and architects have got to get smarter on this stuff.

So what's been the bad shit that we've had? The cost.

[Amelia] (17:48 - 17:56)

Yeah, and I guess that's the thing is, you know, they implement all these new regulations and quite often it does add to the cost.

[Frank] (17:56 - 18:20)

Yeah, some more than others. And I get a bit tired of, and I'm sorry, HIA and Master Builders, I've got to say it, you guys get on the media and you bang on about, you know, cost of construction. I think you undermine the whole industry when you do that, but that's just my opinion on that.

Look, there's reasons that we need to do some of this stuff, but we've got to learn to be smarter and better at how we do it. When something's new, it's always hard. I don't disagree.

[Amelia] (18:20 - 18:20)

True. True.

[Frank] (18:21 - 18:30)

But going Victoria, New South Wales and the other states going up seven star, that is a huge jump over six. It is massive and it's so hard to achieve.

[Amelia] (18:31 - 18:36)

I was going to say, how many would come back and fail and would have to redesign because it's not quite right?

[Frank] (18:36 - 19:45)

It's absolutely brutal and I really feel for them. Because even at six star, we can't get certain types of concrete slabs to comply for the thermal performance. So we have to either do a performance solution or we come up with another way of doing it.

So this is where our energy consultants are gold. They come in and they assist us on these types of things. But depending on your design, you could have reasonable increases in cost.

But there's a fine line, and we were talking about this before the podcast. If you're of the mindset, I want to have a really warm house and I really want to invest into my house and have a high performing house, go for it, knock yourself out. I think it's great.

As long as the rest of the house works for condensation, bushfire, and you get all that working together well, and a good designer or architect will be able to help you do that. But there will be a cost implication. Now your return on investment, you may not see that for a long time.

So there's a fine line of investing in a high performing house at the cost of what our electricity is right now, you may not get that return straight away. Now for some people that are really struggling even to build a house, that is far from their thoughts.

[Amelia] (19:45 - 19:48)

They just want to get into a house that they can afford.

[Frank] (19:48 - 20:01)

But in most of our customers, that is sometimes this stuff is just an inconvenience, because they've gone from an old weatherboard house, you know, post war or whatever into something new. Even a five star is just amazingly warm.

[Amelia] (20:01 - 20:01)

True.

[Frank] (20:01 - 20:13)

You know, six star is just wow, even better again. It's like really much better. So people have this mindset that this isn't important to them compared to having a really nice house.

[Amelia] (20:15 - 20:15)

Yes.

[Frank] (20:15 - 20:37)

So this has been an interesting thing, working with customers on that, but it's not an option anymore. You've got to meet these requirements as a minimum. But then you've got people that really, really want to have a cracking, really well performing house.

Like we had Sam here, Sam Matthews from SM Building. 

[Amelia]

Yes. 

[Frank]

And he did Passive House. You're not going to get much better than that. I went and visited his open home the other day.

[Amelia] (20:37 - 20:38)

We both did.

[Frank] (20:38 - 20:43)

Yeah, that's right. We bumped into each other, didn't we? And then Alicia as well. That was great.

[Amelia] (20:43 - 20:45)

It was a Prime Design party, wasn't it?

[Frank] (20:45 - 20:55)

Yeah, well, I did a few other people there. But it was great because it was a nice warm day. You go in and the temperature was, there was distinct difference in the temperature.

And this was a Passive House that's fully signed off, plaque on the wall.

[Amelia] (20:56 - 20:56)

Certified.

[Frank] (20:56 - 21:01)

Certified. 

[Amelia]

Yes. 

[Frank]

Great job he did. But it was a very simple build.

[Amelia] (21:01 - 21:12)

It was interesting because just looking at the house, for someone that was just walking by on the street, you really can't tell that it's going to be, you know, done a little bit differently.

[Frank] (21:13 - 21:20)

Yeah, construction was completely different, but did a great job of it. We'll have to get him back because he'll have some other interesting projects in the future.

[Amelia] (21:20 - 21:21)

I reckon he will.

[Frank] (21:21 - 21:41)

Yeah. So with this, you also have, there's a flip side to this, you have glazing restrictions. Some people want to put all this glass in.

It's not possible to do it. Orientation is a mandatory thing. I'm a big believer anyway, most designers would be facing getting sun into the house.

[Amelia] (21:41 - 21:41)

Passive solar.

[Frank] (21:42 - 21:42)

Passive solar.

[Amelia] (21:42 - 21:44)

It’s amazing. 

[Frank] (21:44 - 21:58)

It's the best. I love it. I did it at my house 22 years ago. Best thing, like until you experience it, even with a poor performing insulation house from my house from 22 years ago, it's still amazing. Especially in winter, it's the best. You lie there in front of the sun.

[Amelia] (21:58 - 21:59)

And you're comfy.

[Frank] (21:59 - 22:08)

Oh, it's great. Where it really struggles is compact blocks. And I know all around Australia, the blocks are getting smaller and smaller and it's all costing you a small fortune.

[Amelia] (22:08 - 22:08)

Yes.

[Frank] (22:08 - 22:21)

But when they're all condensed, it's harder then to get this to work because to get the sun, you know, you're just stuck. Sloping sites, they're tough. We do them all the time in Tassie.

They're just normal for us.

[Amelia] (22:21 - 22:21)

Yes.

[Frank] (22:22 - 22:55)

So we work around that. We work heavily with the assessors, thermal assessors to get good with their modelling software to get the optimum, to meet their minimum requirements. Some people want to go further.

Wonderful. But then you get the paperwork explosion. Yeah. The paperwork, the admin that we have to do now is extraordinary. So understanding product approvals, there's more documentation. There's a lot of repeat work sometimes because it doesn't work.

We've got to change the design or change the materials to make sure it complies with the thermal. Interestingly, as I said before, there's no inspections on it.

[Amelia] (22:55 - 22:57)

Yeah, that surprises me. It really does.

[Frank] (22:58 - 23:16)

We're going to leave it alone. So for builders though, they have a fair bit of frustration and I get it until they get the hang of it. And this goes to any changes.

They're building homes, but they're running a compliance office. Everything they do is for compliance. 

[Amelia]

Exactly.

[Frank]

But there's difference for us doing the documentation, the drawings.

[Amelia] (23:16 - 23:17)

We have to comply as well.

[Frank] (23:18 - 23:22)

But we've got to make sure our drawings are as correct as possible so then they don't have to do any guesswork.

[Amelia] (23:23 - 23:26)

Exactly. You don't want to leave anything to interpretation.

[Frank] (23:26 - 23:47)

But here's where some of the problems are. Some of the builders are not trained in condensation science. We had a big problem with builders changing how they put the wrap over the roofs. Had to go under the battens. And there was a big shift in Tasmania. I know a lot of people, builders in the mainland, they were already doing it properly underneath the battens. In Tasmania, it was always over the battens and then put the tin on top.

[Amelia] (23:47 - 23:47)

Okay.

[Frank] (23:48 - 24:03)

And we had to fix some. A bit over a year ago, a guy still put it on top and the sheeting was on. Well, you've got to fix it. Oh, I'm not going to. No, you're going to fix it. Oh, we have to come up with a performance solution. And that cost him thousands.

[Amelia] (24:03 - 24:04)

Oh, really? Wow.

[Frank] (24:04 - 24:42)

Literally thousands because he didn't comply. They don't understand the membranes, as I shared the story before.

And that's the hardware store. They needed a big kick up the pants for that. But designers are relying heavily on energy modelling just to make it pass.

And to be fair, that's our job, to make it pass because the client's design and requirements. But sometimes the code moves faster than the education. We had Clarence in months ago.

[Amelia]

We did. 

[Frank]

And he was educating us on all these items as well. And he just lives and breathes this stuff. Got to get Mark Dewsbury on as well.

[Amelia] (24:42 - 24:43)

Yes, we do.

[Frank] (24:43 - 24:44)

We've been trying.

[Amelia] (24:44 - 24:46)

We have. We'll get on to it again.

[Frank] (24:46 - 25:07)

He's an expert in this field. The interesting thing is where condensation fails with lots of poor detailing, you know, things not designed well, not following the code, but also the code's not keeping up with it. And I think the codes, they're trying to reduce the mould, but they're not moving fast enough.

[Amelia] (25:08 - 25:14)

No, and they're not going to change bushfire requirements just so that they can accommodate for condensation problems.

[Frank] (25:14 - 25:21)

No, but at the end of the day, I strongly believe they can fix the condensation problem, but people aren't going to like what we have to do.

[Amelia] (25:21 - 25:23)

With the cost of a HRV.

[Frank] (25:24 - 25:36)

Well, not just that. There's a heap of detailing involved in that as well, with the walls and the ventilation of the roofs and the cavities. The NCC, I reckon, being a pack of pussies at the moment, of not diving into this and solving this problem.

[Amelia] (25:37 - 25:37)

Okay.

[Frank] (25:37 - 25:38)

That’s the opinion piece again, sorry.

[Amelia] (25:39 - 25:41)

That's all right. You on your soapbox is nothing uncommon.

[Frank] (25:41 - 25:44)

I just don't want people to have unhealthy homes.

[Amelia] (25:44 - 25:45)

No, well, that's fair.

[Frank] (25:46 - 25:49)

No, I don't want to have mould in their house. I don't want them to be sick.

[Amelia] (25:49 - 26:01)

It's frustrating because, you know, you can do everything under the sun and you're compliant and everything ticks the box that says everything is right, but it can still have problems. And I think that is the frustrating thing.

[Frank] (26:01 - 26:08)

Yeah, the perfect storm. 

[Amelia]

Yes. 

[Frank]

This happened and this happened on their house. Oh, that's unusual. Never seen that before. Bang, they've got a crap home.

[Amelia] (26:08 - 26:08)

Yeah.

[Frank] (26:10 - 26:19)

So accessibility, we spoke about that. With our steep sites in Tasmania, it is brutally hard to get some of the stuff. We struggle to get some of the driveways to work.

[Amelia] (26:19 - 26:20)

Oh, I can imagine.

[Frank] (26:20 - 26:28)

Some of the driveways and the cost of hundreds, and I'm talking a hundred plus thousand dollars to get a driveway into someone's house. Well, that's a lot of money.

[Amelia] (26:29 - 26:30)

That is a lot of money.

[Frank] (26:30 - 26:47)

Some of the sites are so steep, you know, whether you're coming from the top down or from going up, it's just, wow, really tough. So always great to find flat land. If you can find it.

But the views are very nice from hills.

[Amelia] (26:48 - 26:49)

Yes, that is true.

[Frank] (26:49 - 27:07)

If you need to have accessibility requirements, pay for a lift. And I totally get that for aging in home, put a lift in or plan to have a lift in it. So just moving on to big picture stuff.

Are houses better now than they were 25 years ago?

[Amelia] (27:08 - 27:30)

I guess you have to, I guess in general, probably, well, you might disagree with this. You would think overall, yes, because they're thermally, they're probably going to be better. But in other ways, they're probably going to be not as good in terms of condensation, ventilation and all that sort of stuff.

Because you look at some of these old houses, they actually ventilate quite beautifully.

[Frank] (27:30 - 27:31)

They vent great.

[Amelia] (27:31 - 27:32)

But they leak like a sieve.

[Frank] (27:33 - 27:34)

Yeah, of course. So you wear a bigger jumper.

[Amelia] (27:35 - 27:36)

Well, yeah.

[Frank] (27:37 - 27:50)

Welcome to Tasmania, we're in a wool jumper. You know, but we crank the heater up. We still love our wood heaters.

If you like that type of thing, some people swear by it. Or our heat pumps. We smash those things.

[Amelia] (27:50 - 27:51)

We do.

[Frank] (27:51 - 27:54)

We just love them. Ugly plastic pieces of crap on the wall.

[Amelia] (27:54 - 27:55)

They're not very pretty.

[Frank] (27:55 - 28:05)

Oh, they're filthy looking. That's why I like the ceiling ones. Or ducted, like all the new homes, big homes, they've got these ducted heating systems. They're just oversized and they're not that efficient.

[Amelia] (28:06 - 28:06)

Yeah, okay.

[Frank] (28:07 - 28:30)

I don't believe we've hit, and I've said this before previously, that I believe that the regulations are being outpaced by practicality, hence the condensation issues, the healthy homes. The code's not keeping up. You have this ideology of trying to get all this beautiful star rating thermal efficiency, but the practicality of it, it's not quite there. Or we can't afford to do it properly.

[Amelia] (28:31 - 28:35)

Yeah, that's another thing too, especially with construction costs at the moment.

[Frank] (28:36 - 28:59)

Yeah, yeah. And also the builders aren't being educated. I've got, look, we deal with so many builders and they're immersed in this stuff.

They keep coming and asking questions and we talk to experts and they talk to experts and we come up with solutions. And they're just totally immersed in trying to do better builds to work with the regulations. Because for them, it's good business to make sure the house will never come back as a problem.

[Amelia] (29:00 - 29:14)

Well, that's right. The last thing they want is, is it seven years they have to- 

[Frank]

Yeah, I believe it's seven years under the CBOS requirements in the Tasmania regs. 

[Amelia]

Yeah, I mean, if they do it right to start with, I mean, it's going to save heaps.

[Frank] (29:14 - 29:28)

And I've said this before again, wet areas. 

[Amelia]

Yes. 

They only started doing inspections last year, yet the code when we brought in the Tasmanian building regs and everyone had to have a licence back in 2004, there was no inspections for wet areas.

[Amelia] (29:29 - 29:32)

I know. And one of the biggest failures in homes.

[Frank] (29:32 - 29:33)

Wet areas and box gutters.

[Amelia] (29:33 - 29:35)

Yes. You love your box gutters.

[Frank] (29:36 - 29:42)

Oh, don't get me started. Oh, no, no. Don't do it, people.

Just don't do it.

[Amelia] (29:43 - 29:47)

Yes. I don't think I would have a job if I put box gutters on my house design.

[Frank] (29:47 - 29:48)

No, no. Not happening.

[Amelia] (29:48 - 29:50)

And guess what? There are no box gutters on my house design.

[Frank] (29:50 - 30:03)

No, I saw it. I saw it. Amy did a good job.

[Amelia]

She did a very good job. 

[Frank]

So, our houses are warmer. They are potentially safer in fire, if you maintain the grounds and everyone around you maintains.

[Amelia] (30:04 - 30:04)

Yes.

[Frank] (30:04 - 30:07)

They're more accessible, and I think that's a great thing.

[Amelia] (30:07 - 30:08)

Agreed.

[Frank] (30:08 - 30:09)

But they're more complex.

[Amelia] (30:10 - 30:11)

Definitely agreed.

[Frank] (30:11 - 30:17)

They're more expensive. 

[Amelia]

Yes. 

[Frank]

And they are so less forgiving on poor workmanship.

[Amelia] (30:18 - 30:19)

Mm-hmm.

[Frank] (30:19 - 30:37)

And that's been shown time and time again. So, the code is moving forward, but I don't think the standards and some of the research is staying with it. The ideology of having super-warming homes, everything in the background to make them healthy, is not keeping up.

[Amelia] (30:38 - 30:49)

I guess on the upside, though, you've got those builders that are so immersed in trying to give really good quality homes to people. 

[Frank]

Yeah. 

[Amelia]

Some of them are actually going above and beyond.

[Frank] (30:49 - 31:02)

Oh, and they're big believers on doing real quality homes. The problem you've got, and I'm sorry, these guys charge more because they know how much it costs to do it properly. I'm going through this experience myself.

[Amelia] (31:03 - 31:04)

Well, yeah.

[Frank] (31:04 - 31:17)

Because you pay peanuts, you get chimps. 

[Amelia]

Yes. 

[Frank]

Like, if you think the cheapest price is you're going to get the same house, even though the drawings are the same, it doesn't mean they don't make mistakes or the quality of the workmanship.

[Amelia] (31:17 - 31:17)

Exactly.

[Frank] (31:18 - 31:41)

It's like everything. So, you've got to take that into account. And the complexity is not going to reduce.

It's going to increase as we go forward. The complexity of these builds is going to increase. The amount of paperwork, the regulations that we have to follow, the compliance with every regulatory authority, we need to understand.

For us, we need to understand this. This is where people don't see all the paperwork we have to do.

[Amelia] (31:42 - 31:51)

Do you think moving forward into the future that this is going to make housing unaffordable, or do you think people need to be more realistic with expectations of their home?

[Frank] (31:52 - 31:52)

Both.

[Amelia] (31:52 - 31:53)

Okay.

[Frank] (31:53 - 31:58)

Also, land is a problem. The price of land all through Australia- 

[Amelia]

Has increased.

[Frank] (31:58 - 31:59)

Wow. 

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Frank] (31:59 - 32:07)

If you're starting at $300,000 for a block of land, and that is a lot of money on I don't care who you are.

[Amelia] (32:07 - 32:12)

I mean, when you look at 10 years ago, you could have got a basic house and a block of land for that price.

[Frank] (32:12 - 32:15)

Well, $300,000, $50,000, $400,000, and you've got a pretty good joint.

[Amelia] (32:15 - 32:15)

Yeah.

[Frank] (32:16 - 32:47)

Look, things change. It's all relative, but I really feel for people trying to get in. I believe that's where governments can make the biggest difference, is get cheaper land available, and they can get people to apply for the land.

Don't let developers get involved. Let individuals go buy blocks of land at a cheaper price. And I'm not saying they're over-inflated, because I don't know the cost of developing these pieces of land.

And maybe they're not making much money. I don't know.

[Amelia] (32:47 - 32:50)

Maybe the rules have changed. Maybe it costs more because of that.

[Frank] (32:50 - 33:22)

Who knows? Maybe Tas Networks costs have gone through the roof, and TasWater costs have gone through the roof, and surveying costs. I don't know.

Maybe we need to get someone in to ask on that. But if we can get the land cheaper, that's a big, big chunk that can go into a basic home for someone. 

[Amelia]

Yes.

[Frank]

I think that's a really important distinction. We need to make homes thermally efficient, comfortable, healthy, bushfire resistant, where required, but also last a long time. Houses have to last.

[Amelia] (33:23 - 33:25)

Yes, and a quality house will last.

[Frank] (33:26 - 33:27)

Of course it will.

[Amelia] (33:27 - 33:27)

Yeah.

[Frank] (33:27 - 33:32)

So the building code has changed, but the real question is, has the industry really evolved with it?

[Amelia] (33:33 - 33:34)

That's a good question.

[Frank] (33:34 - 33:55)

And I can't answer that because I'm seeing deficiencies. We're trying our best to really stay ahead of the game. And I know a lot of designers and architects are doing the same, but there's some guys stuck in dark ages.

Do your research when you're looking for people helping you out with this. But there's nothing like a nice, warm house.

[Amelia] (33:55 - 33:56)

That's right.

[Frank] (33:57 - 33:59)

Or a nice, cool house if you're at the other end of Australia.

[Amelia] (33:59 - 34:05)

Yeah, very true. And if you're not sure, and if it's something that's important to you, these areas, ask the questions.

[Frank] (34:06 - 34:12)

Ask the questions. Sit down with a designer. Do they believe what you believe when it comes to designing a house or an extension?

[Amelia] (34:13 - 34:18)

Yeah. What a great place to wrap up. Thanks for listening to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast.

[Frank] (34:18 - 34:18)

Catch ya’s later.

[OUTRO]

You’re listening to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast.