Building Design, Prime Time
We are building designers from Prime Design. We created the Building Design, Prime Time podcast, to provide valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designer's perspective.
Building Design, Prime Time
E132. Types of kit homes and why they may not be as cost effective as you think (Part 2)
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The price looked amazing online. The photos looked even better. But before you hand over a cent for a kit home, there's a lot Frank and Amelia need to tell you first.
In Part 2 of their kit homes series, Frank Geskus and host Amelia pull back the curtain on the traps, hidden costs, and hard-won lessons that most people only discover once it's too late. Frank shares real stories from the field — including some genuine doozies, that reveal just how wide the gap can be between what you think you're getting and what actually arrives on site.
You'll hear why that advertised price rarely reflects a finished home, what questions you absolutely must ask any kit supplier before committing, and why assuming all kits are created equal could cost you dearly. Frank and Amelia also tackle the owner builder reality head-on, the financing hurdles, the compliance obligations that don't disappear, and the critical question of who's responsible when things go wrong.
Plus, Frank shares a detailed checklist (available to download from the Prime Design website) so you actually know what to look for, because as Frank puts it, you don't know what you're checking if you don't know what you need.
Whether a kit home is right for you comes down to going in with your eyes wide open. This episode will help you do exactly that.
Subscribe now and tune in next week for a brand new episode of the Building Design Prime Time Podcast.
About us
Prime Design is a building design company locally owned and operated in Tasmania since 2004. Our goal is to share as much valuable information as possible about the process of building design, extensions, and more. We will talk about a different topic each week. To suggest a topic you would like us to talk about contact us at info@primedesigntas.com.au
Disclaimer
The information provided on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice, individual circumstances, or remedy. We strongly suggest you consult a qualified professional before taking any action based on the information provided in this podcast. The views, opinions, and information provided in this podcast are those of the hosts do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organisation, employer, or company. All content provided on this podcast is provided “as is” without warranty of any kind. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this podcast and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, or damages arising from its use. We reserve the right to change content or delete any information provided on this podcast at any time without prior notice.
E132. Types of kit homes and why they may not be as cost effective as you think (Part 2)
[INTRO] (0:08 - 0:24)
Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast, focused on providing valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We'll share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designer's perspective.
[Amelia] (0:26 - 0:42)
Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast. I'm your host, Amelia. And once again, we're joined by Frank Geskus.
[Frank] (0:43 - 0:44)
Afternoon, Amelia.
[Amelia] (0:44 - 0:47)
It's a wonderful day for a podcast.
[Frank] (0:47 - 0:51)
It is. It's wet and miserable outside. I'm glad I'm here.
[Amelia] (0:51 - 0:53)
Inside, glass of wine.
[Frank] (0:53 - 0:55)
Toasty warm.
[Amelia]
Oh, it's brilliant.
[Frank]
Yeah.
[Amelia] (0:56 - 1:13)
And we're going to kick straight off with part two of the podcast. We were talking about kit homes last week. That was part one.
And we're going to dive a bit deeper into some of the stories and some of the features you need to be aware of when looking into getting a kit home.
[Frank] (1:14 - 1:17)
Yep. And we're going to talk about tips, traps.
[Amelia] (1:17 - 1:18)
Yes.
[Frank] (1:18 - 1:23)
And we've got a gift at the end of it that anyone can download a bit of a checklist.
[Amelia] (1:23 - 1:24)
Yes.
[Frank] (1:24 - 1:26)
Because, man, there's a lot to check.
[Amelia] (1:26 - 1:31)
And I think my favourite part of this whole podcast, you mentioned you were going to share a few doozies.
[Frank] (1:32 - 1:43)
Yeah. I've got a couple of doozies. So hopefully we've got enough time to do that with some stories.
But I think we need to start with the basics. If you're really interested, you need to have a good look at this as an option for you.
[Amelia] (1:43 - 1:47)
Definitely. Yeah. Avoid those traps and know what you're getting.
[Frank] (1:48 - 2:09)
Yep. The hidden costs. So, first things, when you get all excited over these, because the marketing looks fantastic.
You get a house for, you know, it's a three-bedroom house, two baths for $180,000-odd thousand. You think this is a bargain. But you need to slow down, because kit homes, as much as they're a wonderful option, they've got to be done properly.
And done properly, awesome.
[Amelia] (2:09 - 2:09)
Yes.
[Frank] (2:10 - 2:23)
They're great. I've seen some magnificent ones. They look brilliant.
Especially some of the cottages. They look brilliant. They're a certain style.
That's good. So, the biggest mistake. Looking at the advertised kit pricing think what a cheap house.
[Amelia] (2:23 - 2:29)
Yeah. And I think a lot of people don't realise that it's actually not a full house that you're getting.
[Frank] (2:30 - 2:43)
No. You're probably getting the shell, the lock-up, that's it. But, I did research and there were some guys that offer you that.
Then they'll offer you parts of the bits inside. And then all of the bits inside. Yeah, there were some companies that will offer you everything.
[Amelia] (2:43 - 2:47)
You just have to check what's actually included in the price.
[Frank] (2:47 - 2:48)
How do you know what to check?
[Amelia] (2:49 - 2:50)
That's a good point.
[Frank] (2:50 - 2:51)
Would you be able to do it?
[Amelia] (2:51 - 2:56)
I don't know. Is it kind of like a packet where it has on the back of the packet all the pieces?
[Frank] (2:56 - 3:03)
Quite possibly, but I think you might, before you buy it, you'd need to know what you're getting and what you're not getting. But how do you know what you're getting if you don't even know what you need to get?
[Amelia] (3:04 - 3:13)
Well, yeah, that's a really good point. You kind of have to know what you're doing to start with. You can't just sort of fly blind and be a rookie with this sort of stuff.
[Frank] (3:14 - 3:21)
Oh, totally. No different when you're buying a kit car. Sorry, I'm a car guy. So kit cars, you can buy kit cars.
[Amelia] (3:22 - 3:22)
Yeah, right.
[Frank] (3:22 - 3:40)
How do you know you're getting all the parts that you need? They're actually very good. A lot of these companies are very good with that.
Kit homes, probably the same, but you need to know what you need. And if you're not a housey person who never built anything before, how do you know you are getting everything you need? Or gives you part, and then what are you going to have to get after that?
[Amelia] (3:40 - 3:53)
It's not even just about that, though. It's all the stuff beforehand. Like how do you know whether you're exempt for your permits?
Are you exempt? Are you even allowed to build what you want on the block you've purchased?
[Frank] (3:53 - 4:03)
They'd make an interesting podcast.
[Amelia]
Yeah.
[Frank]
We've only done about 15 of those.
[Amelia]
Exactly.
[Frank]
We bang on about this all the time. And we're not going to go over it again.
[Amelia] (4:03 - 4:04)
No.
[Frank] (4:04 - 4:11)
Know if you can do it. You're going to need drawings, engineering, soil test, a survey. And a lot of people are, what do I need a survey?
Just do it.
[Amelia] (4:11 - 4:12)
Yep.
[Frank] (4:12 - 4:13)
Trust me.
[Amelia] (4:13 - 4:13)
Yep.
[Frank] (4:13 - 4:19)
Just do it. And you need a designer to sign off on it. You can't do it yourself.
[Amelia] (4:19 - 4:21)
No. They've got to draw all this stuff up for you.
[Frank] (4:22 - 4:47)
And if you want, they can get your permits. You've still got energy compliance. So there's a lot in that.
And maybe some of these kit home guys will give you quite a bunch of drawings. Maybe they give you half-baked drawings and you've got to fill in the blanks. I can't answer that.
[Amelia]
That's right.
[Frank]
I've been involved a few. Some were really good.
Some were utter rubbish. So it's like understanding what you get for your money. So do your research.
It's a common thing we say, isn't it?
[Amelia] (4:48 - 4:50)
As if we haven't mentioned that before.
[Frank] (4:50 - 5:05)
But how do you know if you don't know? So we're going to give you a checklist. You've got to go on our website, Prime Designs website, and you'll see as part of the podcast, download checklist.
I'm sorry. It's going to be long.
Amelia] (5:05 - 5:08)
Yes. There's a lot of things to take into consideration.
[Frank] (5:09 - 5:38)
Yep. So here's a handful of things we'll go through, because you don't know what you're going to get. Are you just going to get a pile of timber?
Are you going to go steel frame? Is it complete frame, wall frames, roof trusses, and then you can screw it all together maybe? Are they wall panels?
How much is included in the wall panel? Are they roof trusses or are they bits of timber you've got to stack up, what we call a pitched roof? Does it come with windows?
These might all sound dumb, but you need to make sure. Does it have cladding? What about the waterproofing?
[Amelia] (5:38 - 5:38)
Insulation.
[Frank] (5:39 - 5:41)
And by the way, waterproofing has to be done by a certified person.
[Amelia] (5:42 - 5:42)
That's right.
[Frank] (5:43 - 5:45)
Does it come with any cabinetry? Plumbing fixtures?
[Amelia] (5:45 - 5:46)
Yeah.
[Frank] (5:46 - 6:15)
Foundations? That sounds weird, but I'll tell a story that I'm working on a job now. It came with all the foundations.
It was a really good setup. Yeah. All these types of things.
Does it become already certified for thermal performance? So what level of drawings are you getting? How do you know, because in Tasmania we have a pretty strict process with a minimum set of drawings.
How do you know if those meet the minimum requirements? You don't, because you wouldn't know what you're looking at. If you've never looked at a bunch of house drawings that are required for approval, you wouldn't know.
[Amelia] (6:15 - 6:16)
That's right.
[Frank] (6:16 - 6:28)
So every kit supplier will be different. Some are very well organised. Some have got, you know, so well done that everything's tagged and tells exactly where it's got to go.
I've also seen others. They’re a big pile of wood.
[Amelia] (6:28 - 6:32)
And I think that's the first trap is assuming that all kit homes are the same.
[Frank] (6:32 - 7:02)
Oh, 100%. This is where you need testimonies. Talk to people who've built them before, you know, built them.
There are some builders that specialise it, and you can go talk to them and it might be handy for you. Say, hey, can I engage you to build it? Yep.
Always ask. Show me two other houses that you have built out of these kits. Go around.
[Amelia]
Check the quality.
[Frank]
Quality. Are we happy with the process? Really get it from the owners. And was this builder actually a builder or is he a handyman wannabe?
[Amelia] (7:02 - 7:02)
That's right.
[Frank] (7:02 - 7:28)
In all due respect, there are people that call themselves builders and they do not have a licence in Tasmania. If they don't have a licence, run. Or if you know they're pretty good at what they do and you trust them, still run.
Get a builder. When they say, yeah, mate, comes with everything, don't trust it.
[Amelia]
Run.
[Frank]
Run. You know, you need the inclusions and exclusions tables, you need to have a set of drawings, and you need someone to tell you if it's good enough or not.
[Amelia] (7:28 - 7:31)
Yeah, have it all in writing, not just a verbal confirmation.
[Frank] (7:32 - 7:38)
Yeah. Now, if your supplier's got builders, they've got their own in-house designers and all that, I reckon you're halfway there.
[Amelia] (7:38 - 7:41)
Yeah, that's sounding pretty promising.
[Frank]
It's a lot more promising.
[Amelia]
Yeah.
[Frank] (7:41 - 7:58)
And if they've built some in the state, that's the main thing, I believe, with a builder. So the drawings, we spoke about that briefly. But this one is also, it's a massive trap.
I've had to do some where they show me the plans and I said, great, they're pretty ordinary.
[Amelia] (7:58 - 7:58)
Oh, really?
[Frank] (7:59 - 8:16)
And then I did a quote and they fell off their chairs and said, well, I've got to redraw the whole thing and these are useless, they won't pass. But I can see with all the specifications and everything we can actually put a set of drawings together. So we did that and that house was out near Atkins Road, just near Grindelwald, and still there, still looking good.
[Amelia] (8:17 - 8:17)
Yeah, right.
[Frank] (8:18 - 8:20)
But they actually got a builder involved.
[Amelia] (8:21 - 8:21)
Yeah.
[Frank] (8:21 - 8:22)
And it was happy days.
[Amelia] (8:22 - 8:23)
Good decision there.
[Frank] (8:24 - 8:45)
Now, be aware, not all plans are suitable for Tasmania. They say they're generic, they're great for New South Wales, Queensland, Victoria and Tasmania. I'm sorry, they're all different climate zones.
We all have different building regs. We're all under the same national construction code, but with different thermal performances, different wind loads and all that. You need to have specific to suit the state.
And half of them don't come with plumbing drawings.
[Amelia] (8:45 - 8:46)
Yes.
[Frank] (8:46 - 8:57)
Which is understandable to a point because you've still got to connect to sewer or stormwater. These houses are not done for very flat sites.
[Amelia]
Yeah, which is no good if you've bought a really steep one.
[Frank]
Or even a slightly steep.
[Amelia] (8:58 - 8:58)
Yeah.
[Frank] (8:58 - 9:06)
You know, do you need retaining walls? Where are you going to park the car? Do you need a deck or veranda?
Do you need a set of stairs to get to it? Are you doing it on a slab? Are you doing it on a timber floor?
What's the go?
[Amelia] (9:07 - 9:07)
Yeah.
[Frank] (9:08 - 9:17)
So there's lots of things that need to be discussed. And the interesting thing, as you just said, yeah, it could be steep, but you've got to cut and fill. How do you know that?
This is why you need a designer to get involved.
[Amelia] (9:18 - 9:18)
Yeah.
[Frank] (9:18 - 9:24)
So a kit home does not mean you don't use a designer, does not mean you don't use an engineer. You need to have a tonne of this stuff signed off.
[Amelia] (9:25 - 9:38)
Yeah, which brings us back to the point we made on the last podcast is it's not always going to look like the cheapest option, because there are these things that you need to consider, and they are costly because they are what they cost.
[Frank] (9:38 - 10:02)
Yeah, because every house needs it. Now, be aware, every house needs it. That means, you know, you could be spending anywhere between $10,000 to $15,000 for your consultants, all your reports, and then your building surveyor as well.
Now, not all designers would be interested in doing these. They're not interested. If you're an owner-builder, there's quite a number of designers that will not take on an owner-builder, just not interested.
Building surveyors are the same.
[Amelia] (10:03 - 10:03)
Yes.
[Frank] (10:03 - 10:15)
Some will just say flat out no, and that's their right to refuse. Yeah. So as part of your package, and you haven't even bought the thing yet, you know, you might have a bunch of drawings, because I wouldn't buy one until I've got my permits.
[Amelia] (10:15 - 10:19)
Actually, yeah, that's a good point. You almost have to do it backwards, don't you?
[Frank] (10:19 - 10:35)
In a sense, you probably reserve. We do this with sheds a lot. You pay a deposit, subject to getting your permits.
And I believe this should be the same if you're doing a kit home. Reserve it, put a deposit in, and it's got to be refundable if you don't get your permits.
[Amelia] (10:35 - 10:36)
Yeah, that's a good way to go.
[Frank] (10:37 - 10:44)
And just be aware, in Tasmania, anywhere between three to six months to get all your permits, subject to the complexity, and we've been over that heaps and heaps of times.
[Amelia] (10:44 - 10:45)
That's right.
[Frank] (10:45 - 11:24)
So state-by-state compliance, this is a real interesting one. I've been involved in this too, where people supplied me a bunch of drawings, they were kit home and whatnot, and they didn't have the correct notifications for the National Construction Code. They were an older set of drawings, they did not meet what is required in that in our state, Tasmania, at the time.
In every state, they are using a different NCC code. So any drawings they supply, they need to meet the current, the NCC that the state is working on. Currently in Tasmania, we are working to NCC 2022.
Victoria and New South Wales are on 25. I think WA is still on 19, if less.
[Amelia] (11:24 - 11:28)
Oh, really?
[Frank]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[Amelia]
I think they're trying to push Tassie to the latest one.
[Frank] (11:29 - 11:29)
Oh, they tried.
[Amelia] (11:30 - 11:31)
They tried and it didn't work?
[Frank] (11:31 - 11:38)
No, no, no, no. It was always going to be held off. It was just a whole legislation thing of going through Parliament, but they've gone back to 22 now.
[Amelia] (11:39 - 11:39)
Okay.
[Frank] (11:39 - 11:51)
Yeah, there's so much to figure out at the start. So figure it out, get your permits, pay a deposit, hold the price, and once you get your permits, then go for it. But there's some more to check here.
[Amelia] (11:52 - 11:54)
There is definitely more to check.
[Frank] (11:55 - 12:09)
Thermal performance, also, same thing. It is different for every climate zone, whether your windows are compliant with the area, you know, because you need to get a site-specific thermal performance. So the windows that they supply may not even comply here.
[Amelia] (12:10 - 12:12)
Oh, that's a good point. I never actually thought about that.
[Frank] (12:12 - 12:25)
Well, here's an example. Prior to Queensland going to 2025, they could just have single glazing because their climate is very different to Tasmania. What happens if there’s a Queensland company sending a kit down to Tasmania and said it's all fine, it's all single glazing.
[Amelia] (12:25 - 12:27)
Yeah, nearly everything here is double glazed.
[Frank] (12:28 - 13:03)
Oh, I haven't seen one single glazed for a very long time. It was very hard to get it to comply. Different climate zone.
We're a little bit colder here. We want to keep the heat in. Queensland want to get the heat out.
[Amelia]
Yes.
[Frank]
You know, that also comes to another point with the insulation. It comes with insulation.
Awesome. Is it the compliant insulation, minimum insulation required for the climate zone?
[Amelia]
That's a really good point.
[Frank]
Another one. Yeah. So this will be all on checklists. Orientation. This is a really interesting one. You buy a kit home. Beautiful. Full bedroom, big open plan living. Yet the way you want to place it on the side doesn't capture any sun, you know, in your living area.
[Amelia] (13:04 - 13:04)
Yeah.
[Frank] (13:04 - 13:09)
Now, as a designer, and I think a lot of designers are the same, you orientate everything around the sun.
[Amelia] (13:10 - 13:10)
Especially.
[Frank] (13:10 - 13:21)
For us.
[Amelia]
Yeah, especially in Tassie.
[Frank]
We're trying to get sun, free heat, into our house.
Queensland, other extreme, Darwin, you're looking at it a slightly different way. You want to try and get the sun off your glass.
[Amelia] (13:22 - 13:22)
Yes.
[Frank] (13:22 - 13:34)
New South Wales, Victoria, and they've got similar things in their own states. That's why not all drawings are the same from different parts of the country. That's why you get a set of drawings from a kit home, it has to be specific for your state.
[Amelia] (13:35 - 13:35)
Yes.
[Frank] (13:35 - 13:45)
Otherwise you're going to have trouble getting thermal performance. And orientation is a big part of that. Is the engineering included?
Your structural engineering, whether it comes with the foundations.
[Amelia] (13:46 - 13:49)
I was going to say that would have to be specific to your site.
[Frank] (13:49 - 14:17)
Well, it can do. Look, there's one I'm looking at, at the moment and they used, oh, I forgot the name. It's an anchor system where they jackhammer in galvanised pipes through.
They used to be called mega anchors. They still may be around, but they're a similar system. Great system.
And then you put a SHS post, just steel square post, goes up, you've got a bracket, and you fix off your bearers, then your joists. Good system, and you can still put bracing on it as required. It may or may not be included to suit your site.
[Amelia] (14:17 - 14:18)
Yeah.
[Frank] (14:18 - 14:22)
You need to check that. Whereas yours could be a steel-framed one and it's going on a slab.
[Amelia] (14:22 - 14:25)
Yeah, that's right. The slab might not be included.
[Frank] (14:25 - 14:44)
Yeah, well, the trick now with the slab with the thermal performance, what happens if the slab is what we call a slab on grade? It's a raft slab, sits straight on the ground. To meet our minimum requirements here in Tasmania, they're really struggling to get that to work, so they're going to have to put XPS, high-density foam, underneath the slab to insulate part of the slab.
Expensive.
[Amelia]
Yeah.
[Frank]
And if the engineering hasn't been allowed for...
[Amelia] (14:44 - 14:46)
That's going to cost a bit extra.
[Frank] (14:46 - 14:47)
It is, and it's not known.
[Amelia] (14:48 - 14:48)
Yeah.
[Frank] (14:48 - 15:09)
So it definitely wouldn't include retaining walls, you know, because that's site-specific. Engineering for decks, well, if a deck is part of the kit, yes, but if you want to add more, you're going to have to get separate engineering. And it's engineered for site-specific requirements.
So if they give you standardised engineering, how do you know if that complies with the geotechnical report that you get? You know, horse before the cart, cart before the horse, you know?
[Amelia] (15:09 - 15:10)
Exactly.
[Frank] (15:10 - 15:27)
And that's a problem I've got with one at the moment. I'm doing a report on where the so-called builder made a complete meal of it. He got the foundations right for the house, but then for the veranda, I don't know what he was thinking.
I reckon he was smoking some weed out in the middle of the sticks or something when he started putting this thing together. It was clear what had to go in. He just made up his own bearer.
[Amelia] (15:27 - 15:27)
Oh.
[Frank] (15:28 - 15:30)
He butchered the posts for the veranda.
[Amelia] (15:30 - 15:30)
Oh, no.
[Frank] (15:30 - 16:02)
It's terrible. And he didn't put any protection in for the bushfire. It's a high-level bushfire.
And it's a treated pine frame. It's going to burn in the fire, which you're not allowed to. They didn't put any waterproofing separation between the deck frame and the house frame.
They end up putting non-compliant timber partly on the deck. As soon as water hits it, it's going to expand and explode and break. Yep.
[Amelia]
That sounds horrible.
[Frank]
It wasn't good, but I've got a solution, and it's not too bad.
[Amelia] (16:02 - 16:04)
And that was the kit home.
[Frank] (16:04 - 16:08)
The kit was correct. They didn't do it right, and I can't figure out for the life of me. It was really weird.
[Amelia] (16:09 - 16:10)
Did they not read the instructions?
[Frank] (16:11 - 16:14)
Yeah. Maybe it might have been men who don't read instructions.
[Amelia] (16:15 - 16:15)
Maybe.
[Frank] (16:16 - 16:18)
I like my instructions. You know that.
[Amelia] (16:18 - 16:18)
Yes.
[Frank] (16:21 - 16:34)
But it blew my mind to look at this, and I'm looking around for, well, this is dumb. Anyway, we can fix it. I've already told the client we can fix it.
So this is why you need a builder, because they would understand the materials, what you can and can't use in those areas.
[Amelia] (16:34 - 16:34)
Yes.
[Frank] (16:35 - 16:41)
Another interesting part of that story, it was one of these solid timber-walled kit homes.
[Amelia] (16:41 - 16:42)
Oh, okay.
[Frank] (16:42 - 16:51)
So they used solid machined Nautic pine, right? They're all numbered, and they all go together, like, you know, number and paint, you know.
[Amelia] (16:52 - 16:52)
Yes.
[Frank] (16:52 - 17:20)
One piece over another at the corners. They're like mortise and tenon joints. They just slip over each other, and it's a beautiful-looking thing.
[Amelia]
Yeah, it would be nice.
[Frank]
It really is. I think it's 78mm thick, and it's just stunning.
And the windows all fitted in beautifully, and it looked really good. And then they got about a third up, and it's like someone dropped a pebble in there, and they put the next one on, you know, because they're all about 200mm high, and they all stack on top of each other, so it looks like Lego.
[Amelia] (17:21 - 17:23)
They would have to be completely straight, though.
[Frank] (17:23 - 17:31)
Oh, they are. It is gobsmacking. It is beautiful.
And you get about a third of the way up. It's like someone dropped a pebble in there, and they put the piece on. It's not sitting straight.
[Amelia] (17:32 - 17:33)
And it looks wrong.
[Frank] (17:33 - 17:35)
Yeah, but the thing is, they kept building it.
[Amelia] (17:35 - 17:36)
Why would you do that?
[Frank] (17:36 - 17:57)
Oh, buggered if I know. I was just, like, scratching my head, and even the owner's going, yeah, I don't know. And then they all have pre-drilled holes, and they put threaded rod right through, and then they tighten it all up, and that holds it all down.
It's a beautiful setup. But they keep building it, and then they put the roof beams on, which went horizontal, like roof purlins.
[Amelia] (17:57 - 17:59)
And they would be wonky, too, surely.
[Frank] (18:00 - 18:02)
Well, they threw it all out. But then they didn't put them in the right position.
[Amelia] (18:03 - 18:03)
Oh, no.
[Frank] (18:03 - 18:07)
And then it's got pine lining underneath, and it's bent all the pine lining.
[Amelia] (18:07 - 18:10)
So it looks fantastic up until a third of the way up.
[Frank] (18:10 - 18:11)
Yeah, and the rest looks a bit average.
[Amelia] (18:12 - 18:14)
And then it's a, yeah, dog's breakfast.
[Frank] (18:15 - 18:20)
The beauty is they can undo all the threaded rod, because it's not nailed. You can all slip it apart.
[Amelia] (18:20 - 18:21)
Okay.
[Frank] (18:21 - 18:40)
The only thing is they put all the pine lining on the inside of the ceiling, cathedral ceiling, and it looks great. But they're going to pull that apart. It's all doable, but I can only put it down to the dumb shit factor.
And this is the problem. This person was recommended, done this before and whatnot, not a registered builder.
[Amelia] (18:40 - 18:44)
Ah, that's the moral of the story.
[Frank] (18:44 - 18:53)
Very much so. There's quite a number of quality builders. You do your research, get testimonies, and you find these builders, and they are proud of their work. Something's wrong, they will fix it.
[Amelia] (18:53 - 18:54)
Yes.
[Frank] (18:54 - 18:55)
That's the skills they have.
[Amelia] (18:55 - 18:55)
Yes.
[Frank] (18:56 - 19:06)
So we're helping this client out at the moment, trying to get it back on track. And that was just trying to assemble the thing, you know. There's a problem, and they just kept going, trying to hide the problem.
[Amelia] (19:06 - 19:09)
Yeah, that does not solve the problem.
[Frank] (19:09 - 19:13)
It's like you've got a blemish on the side of your house, and you paint straight over it.
[Amelia] (19:13 - 19:14)
Yeah, it's not going to make it go away.
[Frank] (19:14 - 19:28)
Just see it through your paint. Yeah. Most of these buildings should have the engineering for windbracing.
Interesting with the solid timber one, because it's all solid timber, it all locks together, and we've got threaded rod all the way through. The thing is rock solid. It's beautiful.
[Amelia] (19:28 - 19:29)
Sounds really nice.
[Frank] (19:29 - 19:32)
Yeah, a bit wonky at the top, but other than that, it's great.
[Amelia] (19:32 - 19:36)
Yeah. So it's not the kit itself, it's just the way it's been put together.
[Frank] (19:36 - 19:44)
I don't believe it's the kit itself. The kit generally looks like it's well-machined and put together. The quality of the doors and windows look really good, and a whole bunch of other stuff. I believe it's…
[Amelia] (19:44 - 19:46)
the installation of it all.
[Frank] (19:47 - 19:52)
Yeah, the installation. Now, here's the thing you can't do. Here's a trap.
[Amelia] (19:52 - 19:52)
Okay.
[Frank] (19:53 - 19:54)
You can't modify these things.
[Amelia] (19:54 - 19:56)
So if you want to do an extension?
[Frank] (19:56 - 19:59)
No, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about I want to move the window.
[Amelia] (19:59 - 20:03)
Oh, yeah. They do come with those limitations.
[Frank] (20:04 - 20:18)
Of course they do.
[Amelia]
Yeah.
[Frank]
But this is where you've got to make sure you're 100% happy with the design. You can still extend some of these. If it's a steel frame, well, you just do a steel frame extension.
If you do a normal stick build, you can still extend it. The Nordic pine one is going to be a lot more difficult.
[Amelia] (20:19 - 20:19)
Yes.
[Frank] (20:20 - 20:26)
Because it's just solid timber. I'm sure there's millions of ways we can work around it. Probably the other one.
Do you still need all the same reports?
[Amelia] (20:26 - 20:27)
Yes.
[Frank] (20:27 - 20:28)
Yeah, we already went over that.
[Amelia] (20:28 - 20:29)
You do.
[Frank] (20:29 - 20:34)
And we're going to give you a list of those as well. Planning, our favourite topic.
[Amelia] (20:34 - 20:36)
I know. We could bang on about this for ages.
[Frank] (20:37 - 20:44)
But you need to get a planning permit or no permit required. Same stuff as before. Same as every other project.
[Amelia] (20:44 - 20:44)
Same process.
[Frank] (20:45 - 20:46)
It doesn't change.
[Amelia] (20:46 - 20:46)
No.
[Frank] (20:46 - 20:50)
So you can do that yourself if you want. Knock yourself out.
[Amelia] (20:50 - 20:56)
We don't recommend it. And obviously here we offer to do it for you as part of our services.
[Frank] (20:57 - 21:00)
Yes, very much so. But feel free. If you feel...
[Amelia] (21:00 - 21:01)
Confident.
[Frank] (21:01 - 21:03)
Confident, have a crack.
[Amelia] (21:03 - 21:03)
Have a crack.
[Frank] (21:04 - 21:17)
You know, and I say that a lot, have a crack. Once you're over it and you look, stare at a planner face to face and you don't understand the language they're talking, that's okay. Then you can come and talk to us.
Building surveyor. And I've already said, who's going to certify it?
[Amelia] (21:17 - 21:21)
Yeah, that's a good point. You better check whether your building surveyor will actually do that for you.
[Frank] (21:21 - 21:27)
Or any building surveyor for that matter.
[Amelia]
Yes.
[Frank]
I'd be doing the ring around. And especially if you want to go owner builder.
[Amelia] (21:29 - 21:30)
Yeah, yep.
[Frank] (21:30 - 21:32)
That's because that's the biggest one.
[Amelia] (21:32 - 21:37)
It's kind of an alarm bell for designers, building surveyors.
[Frank] (21:37 - 21:37)
Yep.
[Amelia] (21:37 - 21:38)
Yep.
[Frank] (21:38 - 21:48)
And the problem... Look, I'll be totally blunt with this. Half the people who owner builder don't have a clue.
No idea. They reckon this stuff's easy. It is complex.
[Amelia] (21:49 - 21:51)
It is complex. People don't realise.
[Frank] (21:51 - 23:07)
To do it properly, to get compliance. For the simple reason, why should you not build to exactly the same standard as a qualified builder and to all the correct standards? As an owner builder, if you're going to do it, go for it.
But really understand, study, go work with a builder. Go work on site and do stuff. Knock yourself out.
I'm going to do a bit of a plug here. And this is a book by Alan Staines. And it's called The Australian House Building Manual.
It's up to its 9th or 10th edition. If you're dead serious about it, you buy this book. You can buy them at Bunnings, bookstores, whatever.
Read it. Study it. Breathe it.
It is fantastic. And they've got ones on renovations, decks, all sorts of crazy stuff. When I did my own owner building a house, and even though I was already working in the industry, I still bought one of these.
Understood a lot of other things. This thing's the best, the duck's guts. It's simple, great diagrams, constantly updated.
It's got 660-odd illustrations. It helps you understand so many different types of construction and everything from stairs to lightweight to brickwork, how to brace, how to fix off roofs to your top plates, how to do your flashings. It's just sensational.
It talks about different types of roofs. I could go on and on.
[Amelia] (23:08 - 23:09)
I was going to say, you're nerding out on us, Frank.
[Frank] (23:09 - 23:11)
I am so nerding out.
[Amelia] (23:11 - 23:11)
I know.
[Frank] (23:11 - 23:19)
And we give this to all our newbie trainees, and I tell them, read it, study it, recite it back to me.
[Amelia] (23:19 - 23:19)
Yeah, right.
[Frank] (23:19 - 23:22)
This is the best. It's simple.
[Amelia] (23:23 - 23:27)
I'll be honest. I don't know if I'm going to be putting it on my reading list.
[Frank] (23:27 - 23:30)
Now I'm disappointed. Come on.
[Amelia] (23:30 - 23:33)
I need to look up how to build a lintel.
[Frank] (23:34 - 23:44)
Just if you know the names, you know where everything goes, you understand where stuff goes together with a house. So, Alan Stein's The Australian House Building Manual.
[Amelia] (23:44 - 24:05)
Actually, it's not as dumb as what it sounds, even if you're not in the industry, you're not looking to be an owner-builder. A lot of people out there will at some point build something or have somebody else build something for them, and if you have an understanding of how it's put together, you can then identify if something has gone wrong in the process.
[Frank] (24:06 - 24:08)
Oh, totally. And that's a really good point.
[Amelia] (24:08 - 24:17)
So, I mean, education is the key. So, I probably shouldn't bag you out, so I'm sorry about that, for nerding out. So, maybe I will maybe put it on my reading list.
[Frank] (24:17 - 24:22)
Well, I'll give you a deal. Instead of reading it, just read all the lovely little pictures and diagrams.
[Amelia] (24:23 - 24:26)
Okay. I can look at pictures. Be like a comic book.
[Frank] (24:26 - 24:28)
Look, there's only 660 in here.
[Amelia] (24:29 - 24:30)
Only?
[Frank] (24:30 - 24:34)
Yeah. Page a day. Anyway, we're digressing.
[Amelia] (24:34 - 24:34)
We are.
[Frank] (24:36 - 24:42)
So, and this comes back to that owner-builder thing. Big responsibility. Where does the buck stop with an owner-builder, Amelia?
[Amelia] (24:42 - 24:44)
That's a good point. Just don't do it.
[Frank] (24:45 - 24:47)
I don't recommend it unless you're very confident.
[Amelia] (24:48 - 24:48)
Unless you're really confident.
[Frank] (24:48 - 24:56)
And you know, read the book. In Tasmania, you have to sit a course, a Tasmanian CBOS course to become an owner-builder.
[Amelia] (24:56 - 24:57)
Yep. You've got to pass it.
[Frank] (24:57 - 24:58)
Yep. That's helpful.
[Amelia] (24:58 - 24:59)
Yep.
[Frank] (25:00 - 25:13)
Owner-builder is not a magic saving button unless you really know what you're doing. And you've got to get your own insurances, PI, a whole bunch of stuff. So, and there's a lot of paperwork, a lot of mucking around.
And you're not the client anymore. You are the guy.
[Amelia] (25:13 - 25:14)
That's it.
[Frank] (25:14 - 25:14)
You're the guy.
[Amelia] (25:14 - 25:16)
The buck stops at you, doesn't it?
[Frank] (25:16 - 25:33)
Yep. 100%, you're responsible. You're responsible for any person that walks onto site.
Are they qualified? Are they insured? That's up to you.
[Amelia]
That's right.
[Frank]
You've got to make sure. If something turns up and they're not insured, something falls on them and wrecks them and whatnot. Have they got insurance? Have you got insurance?
[Amelia]
Yep.
[Frank]
It's yuck.
[Amelia] (25:33 - 25:35)
Comes under your license as an owner-builder.
[Frank] (25:36 - 25:55)
Yep. But for someone who's competent and really wants to have a crack at it, it's fantastic. Good on you.
Have a crack. I'm always for someone to have a crack, but do it properly. Don't do it with rose-coloured glasses.
And kit homes can be a very good way of doing it with the right kit home. And as I said, some trades don't even want to work for owner-builders because they're pain in the arse.
[Amelia] (25:55 - 25:58)
Yeah, if they're not confident in what they're doing.
[Frank] (25:58 - 26:22)
They're not well-planned.
[Amelia]
Yep.
[Frank]
If you haven't got a whole schedule and planning and you've spoken to people about how to do the boxing or they're going to do the boxing, you might just farm out, can you do the slab for me or can you do the footings for me or can you install the windows for me, can you do my bathroom for me?
Fine. You do little packages.
[Amelia]
Yes.
[Frank]
Fine. You become more of a project manager because a builder is a project manager at the end of the day.
[Amelia] (26:22 - 26:23)
That's true. Yes.
[Frank] (26:24 - 26:28)
Where it gets more complex is when you need to get your plumbing sorted.
[Amelia] (26:29 - 26:32)
Yes. That's a big one.
[Frank] (26:32 - 26:52)
Yep. Easy if you're connecting to sewer and stormwater, just through the council requirements and in our case, TasWater for Sewer and get your water connection and then TAS Networks. Move on from there, it makes me grumpy.
I'm getting that twitch. Yeah, get your power hooked up, qualified electrician, that's a qualified plumber, all that stuff. Wastewater.
[Amelia] (26:53 - 26:53)
Yes.
[Frank] (26:54 - 27:36)
Your human waste that needs to be dealt with.
[Amelia]
Yes. The bits.
[Frank]
The bits. So, very important. Again, separate report, separate council approval, needs to be dealt with and again, we'll have a checklist for you and choosing the right people and that report for wastewater needs to be done as part of your permits.
Now, here's an interesting one that so many people really mess up, especially owner builders. This is the biggest cock-up I've seen. Siteworks.
You've got a kit home, it's all fine. You've got your levels but you don't understand the amount of excavation. Do you have to cut? Do you have to fill? Do you need a retaining wall? Do you need driveways, crossovers, drainage, trenching services, power, you know, water connections?
Do you put a wall in the same trench? Do you separate the trench? Do you need a crane in?
[Amelia] (27:36 - 27:37)
Yeah, that's a good point.
[Frank] (27:37 - 27:51)
You know, temporary fencing. You've got to make the place safe. Scaffolding.
Don't think you can put a bunch of pallets together and think you're going to climb up the side of this thing and put the vent up. It's all going to be compliant. So, this keeps going on and on again.
So, we're going to have that in the checklist as well.
[Amelia] (27:51 - 27:52)
Yes.
[Frank] (27:52 - 28:09)
So, none of this disappears because it's a kit home. It's the same as any other home. Is the driveway steep?
Can the crane reach? Can you get a concrete truck up there? I've seen it where you can't.
Where an excavator barely gets up there or down. It's hilarious. It's just this big thing using this bucket to drag the rest of the body of the excavator up.
[Amelia] (28:09 - 28:09)
Oh dear.
[Frank] (28:10 - 28:18)
Up near Trevallyn where a few locals know it. And Hobart's even more special with some of the sites at Sandy Bay that they're built on that scare the pants off you.
[Amelia] (28:18 - 28:19)
Steep.
[Frank] (28:19 - 28:23)
Steep where you drive where you can't actually see any road or building or anything.
[Amelia] (28:23 - 28:23)
Oh wow.
[Frank] (28:23 - 28:31)
Yeah, you don't know where you're going. You need someone to store your materials. You need to have a site shed or a shipping container.
That sort of stuff. It's logistics.
[Amelia] (28:32 - 28:36)
Yeah. There's a lot to organise if you're arranging all that stuff yourself.
[Frank] (28:36 - 28:40)
And that's why you need a builder. They should be skilled planners.
[Amelia] (28:40 - 28:43)
Yes. That's one of the biggest skills I think of a builder.
[Frank] (28:43 - 28:57)
Oh, a really good builder. Their planning skills are impeccable. So don't do changes.
Expensive. More expensive than a kit home. Unless you're adding a deck.
Well, that's not the end all. Or changing stuff. Just don't do it.
[Amelia] (28:58 - 28:58)
Yeah. Yep.
[Frank] (28:59 - 29:01)
We've spoken about it. Always have a contingency.
[Amelia] (29:02 - 29:04)
Yes. The same as any other build.
[Frank] (29:04 - 29:15)
Yep. Doesn't change. Have money up your sleeve for things that you didn't expect.
Especially when it comes to rock.
[Amelia]
Yes.
[Frank]
So we've already said this before.
Something goes wrong. Who's responsible?
[Amelia] (29:15 - 29:15)
Yeah.
[Frank] (29:16 - 29:19)
If you're going to add a builder. You. If it's a builder.
[Amelia] (29:20 - 29:20)
Them.
[Frank] (29:20 - 29:22)
And they've organised everything. Them.
[Amelia] (29:22 - 29:23)
Comes under their life.
[Frank] (29:23 - 29:27)
They know how to deal with it. And also they will not put up with dumb shits on site.
[Amelia] (29:27 - 29:28)
That's right.
[Frank] (29:28 - 30:02)
Safety and all that. You know, a bad waterproofer, a bad tiler, a bad joiner, sparky, whatever. They'll kick them off site.
So the big thing too, waterproofing is a massive one. If you don't get this right, you'll be fixing that in about five years. So again, in Tasmania, you need to have certified waterproofers to do your wet areas.
Bathrooms particularly.
[Amelia]
Yes.
[Frank]
And you need to have weather protection while you're building this thing.
While you're doing it. You know, make sure once the roof's on you've got the pops hanging out of the gutter. Get some temporary downpipes on.
Divert the water away from the house.
[Amelia] (30:03 - 30:04)
Good plan.
[Frank] (30:04 - 30:14)
Now, here's a question for you. Defects. House is finished.
Happy days. High fives. You're living in there. And you have defects. Who's responsible for the defects?
[Amelia] (30:15 - 30:17)
Well, wouldn't you go back to the builder?
[Frank] (30:17 - 30:18)
Yep. Or?
[Amelia] (30:18 - 30:21)
Or if you're an owner builder, obviously the buck stops at you.
[Frank] (30:21 - 30:25)
Yep. Your problem. What if the defect in the kit home?
[Amelia] (30:25 - 30:32)
Then it's a manufacturing issue. Yeah. And you would go back to the kit company.
[Frank] (30:32 - 30:33)
What happens if they're not in the state?
[Amelia] (30:33 - 30:36)
Well, yeah. You've got to weigh that up, I guess.
[Frank] (30:36 - 30:37)
I can't answer that one.
[Amelia] (30:37 - 30:52)
Yeah. It's difficult if you've purchased elsewhere.
[Frank]
What about finance?
That's an interesting one. This is an evolving door, I think, in terms of financing, kit homes, modular, all of that stuff.
[Frank] (30:53 - 30:57)
Kit home's always been there. It's treated like a normal home, but if you own a builder, banks don't like it.
[Amelia] (30:58 - 31:00)
That's very true. It is very tricky to get finance on owner builder.
[Frank] (31:00 - 31:10)
I did it myself 23 years ago. One of the most painful experiences of my life. Owner builder, finance.
Terrible. Awful. All the way through the build.
Never do it again.
[Amelia] (31:11 - 31:14)
Yeah, it's tricky. And I think it's gotten worse, probably, since you built.
[Frank] (31:15 - 31:22)
Rightly so. Because banks have got to protect the money they lend and then the asset. And if the asset's shit and they can't sell it, well, then they've lost money.
[Amelia] (31:22 - 31:23)
That's right.
[Frank] (31:23 - 31:26)
It seems like we're really negative on kit homes, isn't it?
[Amelia] (31:26 - 31:36)
We're not. We're just trying to make people aware of what can go wrong if you don't have all of the information and you're educated to make informed decisions.
[Frank] (31:37 - 31:38)
Don't be naive.
[Amelia] (31:39 - 31:40)
That's right.
[Frank] (31:40 - 31:55)
And as I said before, but you don't know what you're checking if you don't know what you're looking for and just don't think everything's in the kit. I've seen, as I've said, I've seen fantastic kit homes completed, looks fantastic, and I've seen absolute shockers because they've just cut corners, made a mess, no good.
[Amelia] (31:56 - 31:56)
Yes.
[Frank] (31:57 - 32:10)
So it's a case of horses for courses to suit your site how you want to do it and if you use a registered builder or not. That's probably going to be your biggest difference, I believe, is your registered builder. Because the builder goes, no, this is a piece of crap.
I'm not building this.
[Amelia] (32:10 - 32:11)
Yes.
[Frank] (32:11 - 32:34)
And they'll tell you automatically whether to do it or not. If the kit home manufacturer says, hey, we've got these guys that we use, fine, give me references of the other ones that you've done. Give me the name. I want to go visit them. Get the testimonials from, you know, get it from the horse's mouth so that you find out exactly what the go is. Yes, just because they're cheap. Careful, please, because I've seen other ones where they couldn't afford to finish it.
[Amelia] (32:35 - 32:42)
Yeah, and that's the sad reality is not everyone knows what they're getting into when they go into buying a kit home.
[Frank] (32:42 - 32:52)
So you really need to set budgets and you've got to know what you're looking for. And this is where the owner builder manual will help in the whole series of books that they have.
[Amelia] (32:52 - 32:54)
Yes, put it on your reading list.
[Frank] (32:54 - 33:03)
If you're serious about this stuff, even if you're a renovator, there's a renovator's manual. He does all extensions. He does all sorts of stuff, these books.
There's a tonne of them.
[Amelia] (33:03 - 33:04)
Wow.
[Frank] (33:04 - 33:10)
If you're keen to do this, and I believe have a crack, just learn.
[Amelia]
Yes.
[Frank]
It's not the worst thing to do in the world.
[Amelia] (33:10 - 33:17)
No. Weigh up your options, make informed decisions based on all of the information, not half of it.
[Frank] (33:17 - 33:21)
Yeah. Ask all the boring questions early because the boring questions save you expensive problems at the end.
[Amelia] (33:22 - 33:27)
That's exactly right. What a great place to wrap up. Thanks for listening to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast.
[Frank] (33:27 - 33:28)
Catch ya’s later.
[OUTRO] (33:30 - 33:41)
You're listening to the Building Design, prime Time Podcast.
