E139. When should you stop changing your design?

Frank once had a client rack up 24 revisions on a single project. Twenty-four. And it still didn't end well.

If you've ever found yourself endlessly tweaking your floor plan, second-guessing a window choice, or scrolling Pinterest at midnight wondering if you've really nailed the design, this episode is for you. Amelia and Frank dig into one of the trickiest parts of any build or renovation: knowing when refining crosses the line into analysis paralysis.

Frank shares why constant changes are almost always a symptom of something bigger, and it's rarely about the design itself. They talk about the "wish list" trick Prime Design uses to separate non-negotiables from nice-to-haves, why TV renovation shows are setting homeowners up for disappointment, and the surprisingly common miscommunication that happens when a client says one word, like "Hamptons" and means something completely different to their designer.

There's also a confession from Frank about designing his own home (twice) and falling into the exact trap he warns his clients about, plus he tells a cautionary tale about a $100,000 glazing blowout that started with one stubborn design decision.

If you're mid-design and can't tell whether you're refining or spiralling, Frank lays out exactly where the line sits, and what it actually costs you when you don't respect it.

🎧 Listen to the full episode now on the Building Design Prime Time Podcast. And be sure to subscribe so you don't miss the weekly episodes. 

About us
Prime Design is a building design company locally owned and operated in Tasmania since 2004.  Our goal is to share as much valuable information as possible about the process of building design, extensions, and more. We will talk about a different topic each week. To suggest a topic you would like us to talk about contact us at info@primedesigntas.com.au

Disclaimer
The information provided on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice, individual circumstances, or remedy. We strongly suggest you consult a qualified professional before taking any action based on the information provided in this podcast. The views, opinions, and information provided in this podcast are those of the hosts  do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organisation, employer, or company.  All content provided on this podcast is provided “as is” without warranty of any kind. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this podcast and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses,  or damages arising from its use. We reserve the right to change content or delete any information provided on this podcast at any time without prior notice.

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E139. When should you stop changing your design?

[INTRO] (0:08 - 0:42)

Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast, focused on providing valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We'll share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designer's perspective. 

[Amelia]

Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast. I'm your host Amelia and once again we're joined by Frank Geskus.

[Frank] (0:42 - 0:43)

Happy Friday Amelia.

[Amelia] (0:44 - 0:46)

Yes, it is a fairly happy day, we've got sunshine.

[Frank] (0:46 - 0:48)

Coming to the tail end of winter.

[Amelia] (0:48 - 0:49)

Yes.

[Frank] (0:49 - 0:51)

And we've got a Tasmanian Chardonnay.

[Amelia] (0:51 - 0:53)

Well you do, I've got something different.

[Frank] (0:53 - 0:55)

Oh yeah, you've got the Riesling, I drank mine a bit fast.

[Amelia] (0:56 - 0:57)

You did, you got a little bit happy.

[Frank] (0:58 - 0:58)

Yeah.

[Amelia] (0:59 - 1:00)

It evaporated.

[Frank] (1:01 - 1:05)

It evaporated, I don't know how that happened. So, this week.

[Amelia] (1:05 - 1:16)

Yes, we thought we'd have a chat to you about when should you stop changing your design? And it's a bit of an open-ended question, so let's just start with what do you do when you get to that point?

[Frank] (1:17 - 1:20)

Well, I think you've got to go back to the very start of your project.

[Amelia] (1:21 - 1:21)

Okay.

[Frank] (1:21 - 1:30)

If someone feels compelled to keep changing their design, I don't think they have a clear vision, a clear overall picture of what they want to achieve.

[Amelia] (1:30 - 1:31)

Yes.

[Frank] (1:31 - 2:07)

And what I mean by that is, I certainly understand getting into the details, but there are times where you've got to look at the big picture of it, you know? Sun, view, functionality. Maybe the kitchen's your own special place, maybe it's the lounge, maybe it's the second living area, maybe it's your gym.

For me, it's the garage and the outdoor entertainment, you know, and the deck. You know, it's different for everyone, but certainly been in this game for a long, long time and we've had to work with customers that are just endlessly changing. I think our record in-house for the most revisions on a project, I think it was about 24.

[Amelia] (2:07 - 2:09)

Wow, that's a lot of revisions.

[Amelia] (2:09 - 2:25)

It was, and it got very expensive for her, and then they got very upset, and I said, well, you keep making changes, but you can imagine where that went. But it's informing them that every time you make a change, someone's got to pay for it. Let's forget about the dollars.

[Amelia] (2:26 - 2:26)

It's time.

[Frank] (2:28 - 3:19)

I'm a big believer very early in the project that you sit down and you're very clear of what you want to do. You've been dreaming about this, you want to do it. It could be an extension, it could be a new home, it could be a holiday shack, it could be putting a pool in the backyard, it could be a man cave or a she shed.

It could be all this type of stuff. You do have to do your own research, go through, you know, find your own pitches, things that you like. You've really got to analyse this stuff well.

We've had customers come in and they've got their own sketches and their plan, their photos, and they're very consistent, and it's easy. What we're talking about is when you're unsure, and there's an element of self-doubt in there as well. And for us, you know, you see different characters of people, and we need to understand and be empathetic of what they're trying to achieve.

[Amelia] (3:19 - 3:19)

Yes.

[Frank] (3:19 - 3:20)

As long as they're willing to listen.

[Amelia] (3:20 - 3:32)

And I guess the other thing too is sometimes it's not just one person's opinion. Sometimes you've got, you know, a partner or something like that, or another family member that you're going in with.

[Frank] (3:32 - 3:38)

Or even family members that have got nothing to do with the project. Guess what? Giving their opinion.

[Amelia] (3:38 - 3:38)

Yes.

[Frank] (3:39 - 3:54)

And unfortunately, it could be they have more money than you, or it's kept up with the Joneses, and we've had all this. And in our world, in my world, I don't like coming up with a design that they can't build for their budget.

[Amelia] (3:54 - 3:54)

Yes.

[Frank] (3:54 - 4:58)

There's no point. I just don't like it. Other people have different opinions on that.

They'll find the money somewhere is usually the excuse, which I disagree with. At the end of the day, you'd be fair dinkum with the budget, fair dinkum with what the customer wants to do. And this is like, we have a little piece of paper, it's called the wish list.

[Amelia]

Yes. 

[Frank]

One side is, and we've spoken about it before, one side is the things you cannot do without in this project, non-negotiables, and I want them in order of what is the highest priority. And that could be, I've got four kids, I need three bedrooms or I need four bedrooms, whatever the case may be.

I need two bathrooms in the house. I need an ensuite, I need a proper bath, but I need it designed for teenagers maybe. I have a kitchen, but we need to have a certain size.

I need a butler's pantry. 

[Amelia]

Yes. 

[Frank]

The term of butler's pantry has become more prevalent.

And sometimes it's in a smaller pantry, like a bigger pantry than what they have now. Butler's pantry is pretty extreme. It's very, very nice, but it takes a lot of space and a lot of extra joinery and your joinery price goes through the roof.

[Amelia] (4:58 - 4:59)

It does, yes.

[Frank] (4:59 - 5:17)

So you've got to find support. It could be a second living area. It could be an outdoor living area.

We did one for one family in this fully enclosed outdoor kitchen, dining. It was an amazing extension. 

[Amelia]

Yes.

[Frank]

Because that's what was important to them, because they eat out there rather than in their dining room. And that's in Tasmania, where our temperature isn't real flash during winter.

[Amelia] (5:18 - 5:18)

That's right.

[Frank] (5:18 - 5:19)

And they're still out there.

[Amelia] (5:19 - 5:22)

And, I mean, they had a beautiful view as well, so it totally made sense.

[Frank] (5:23 - 5:24)

Yeah, it was hard to handle that view, wasn't it?

[Amelia] (5:24 - 5:26)

It was, yeah, very nice.

[Frank] (5:26 - 5:36)

So for us it’s to understand what's really important and then the customer to be able to express what's really important, but also to have the other side, what is the, you know, the wants if they could have it.

[Amelia] (5:37 - 5:37)

Yes.

[Frank] (5:37 - 5:42)

So we understand maybe we can incorporate that or not.

[Amelia] (5:43 - 5:43)

Yeah.

[Frank] (5:43 - 5:47)

We'll have a place for a hot tub or a spa, which means pool fencing and all the rest of it.

[Amelia] (5:47 - 5:48)

Yes.

[Frank] (5:48 - 6:08)

It could be all sorts of stuff. For blokes, it could be another shed. It could be whatever.

It could be a view. It could be a billiard room, rumpus room, flexible space. What I'm trying to get to, getting really clear on what your vision is.

Now, the challenge is how does that relate to budget? Well, we're not going to talk about the budget, but obviously it has to relate.

[Amelia] (6:09 - 6:09)

Yes.

[Frank] (6:09 - 6:18)

So then you need to match that up. But where we're talking about keep changing the design, there's quite a number of elements that could trigger that.

[Amelia] (6:18 - 6:38)

Oh, yeah. I mean, I want to point out, look how many renovation shows are on. You know, you've got the block and all these other home reno shows, people that go buy these big, beautiful farming properties and decide their heritage and they're going to renovate them and have them look beautiful or whatever the case may be.

[Frank] (6:38 - 6:41)

And then heritage can look utterly stunning.

[Amelia] (6:41 - 6:51)

Yes. But, I mean, there's kind of a pretty big caveat with those sort of things. You've got TV magic and probably an unlimited budget.

Who knows?

[Frank] (6:52 - 6:56)

I actually love Grand Designs where it's rare they hit budget.

[Amelia] (6:56 - 6:59)

Oh, yeah. And they often go way, way over.

[Frank] (6:59 - 7:16)

And I'm very sympathetic because I've been in the game for a long time and I've seen what those budgets, when you go down that track and what the budgets do to relationships. 

[Amelia]

Yes. 

[Frank]

I've seen the ugly side of that. It's not pretty. And it's been on those shows as well where people have separated.

[Amelia] (7:17 - 7:17)

Yes.

[Frank] (7:17 - 7:29)

One person's vision, another person like, seriously, what about our relationship, you know? It's a fine balance, this stuff, because it can actually damage a lot of things because you've got this vision of this building because it's what you've dreamed about.

[Amelia] (7:30 - 7:30)

Yes.

[Frank] (7:30 - 8:09)

It's also a fear of regret of not getting the design right. My recommendation is you've got to look at the big vision, what are the fundamentals you cannot do without in relation to your budget, but the fear of regret of not making it look a certain way as well. And if you're unclear of the scope, it's a horror show.

[Amelia]

Yes. 

[Frank]

Just flat out. And we identify that early because we then go, right, let's do a feasibility study of what your ideas are with the site because we question whether the site may or may not work as well.

The site could be really expensive to build on too. So this is where we do the concepts. You've got to get 3D models so people can visualise it a bit better, but also you need to get the engineers involved to say, well, what's it going to cost?

[Amelia] (8:10 - 8:10)

Yes.

[Frank] (8:10 - 8:27)

From the ground up to this point. And also when certain style of housing, you need to get a thermal assessment, preliminary one done, because if you don't get that right, I've seen cost blowouts of over $100,000 just on the glazing.

[Amelia] (8:27 - 8:28)

Really?

[Frank] (8:29 - 8:39)
 
Because they wanted this look, the size windows and all the rest of them, and the proportion of cost to the glazing to proportion of the house was just way out of whack.

[Amelia] (8:39 - 8:39)

Yep.

[Frank] (8:39 - 8:46)

It was terrible. They insisted that's what they wanted, but they had to go for this high-performance glazing. And it's wonderful to have, but just to meet the minimum performance.

[Amelia] (8:47 - 8:49)

Yes. Then it would be a performance solution.

[Frank] (8:49 - 8:51)

Then we went to a performance solution.

[Amelia] (8:51 - 8:51)

Then it costs more.

[Frank] (8:51 - 8:56)

The performance solution was about $5,500, $6,000 to do that.

[Amelia] (8:56 - 8:56)

Yes.

[Frank] (8:56 - 9:09)

And then they'll, in some cases, have been able to reduce the type of glazing, the type of units they put in there. And they could save a lot of money. But you don't know that until you get the final thermal assessment.

[Amelia] (9:10 - 9:10)

Yes.

[Frank] (9:10 - 9:23)

But I believe the thermal assessors are an important part very early on in your project. And also you can go further with this certain reporting to understand the energy usage of your building.

[Amelia] (9:23 - 9:23)

Yes.

[Frank] (9:24 - 9:30)

So then you can calculate, well, how much is it going to cost me a year to run? Now, that's going past what we're talking about. Sorry, I've gone down a rabbit hole here.

[Amelia] (9:31 - 9:31)

You have.

[Frank] (9:31 - 9:48)

Sorry. 

[Amelia]

That's all right. 

[Frank]

The fear of regret is where I'm coming to.

Like, they want to have these huge windows. Like, sometimes people have got these ginormous windows, and the cost of these windows are eye-watering. 

[Amelia]

Yes.

[Frank]

Because the sheer size of glass, the frames, and they might have to go to a commercial frame.

[Amelia] (9:49 - 9:50)

And structurally, it costs more?

[Frank] (9:50 - 10:01)

Structurally, all that. You know, they don't know that. The other side of it is influences. So we spoke about some of those TV shows, and some, to be fair, some really great ideas on there.

[Amelia] (10:01 - 10:01)

Yeah.

[Frank] (10:02 - 10:05)

But the timeframes are stupidly unrealistic for anyone normal.

[Amelia] (10:05 - 10:06)

Yes.

[Frank] (10:06 - 10:09)

Like, seriously, doing bathrooms in a week.

[Amelia] (10:09 - 10:10)

Yeah, it's a bit insane, isn't it?

[Frank] (10:10 - 10:11)

It's just dumb.

[Amelia] (10:11 - 10:18)

I'd hate to be a tradie on one of those shows that they employ. Like, they must go absolutely flat maggot to get it all done.

[Frank] (10:18 - 10:19)

I don't know why they bother.

[Amelia] (10:19 - 10:19)

Yeah.

[Frank] (10:19 - 11:32)

Dealing with those timeframes, because I really question the quality of the workmanship when you're rushing it. So when you're influenced by social media, TV shows, Pinterest and all that, you've got to take it with a grain of salt, and you need to pass those images to your designer. But they've got to be consistent.

We've had some doozies where people, yeah, we're doing a single-storey house, and they send me pictures of two-storey homes. I go, what's that for? Oh, I like the look.

But it's a two-storey home, not a single-storey. 

[Amelia]

Yes. 

[Frank]

Vastly different.

So navigating through that. The self-doubt, asking other people for opinion, and not just one but multiple people, that is the worst thing you could ever do. 

[Amelia]

Mm-hmm.

[Frank]

Because everyone's putting their own design preferences. With these changes, we compartmentalise how we do it in prime design. Stage one is all your concept, and then build on to planning drawings.

Then we go for planning approval, then go to construction drawings. So that early stage is where we set up all the design components, and actually model it, go through with the client to say, well, how do you want this? How do you want that?

You've already given us a brief. Have you considered these things? And that's part of that design process.

When it's really unsure, we put another step in front of that. We spoke about that, the feasibility.

[Amelia] (11:33 - 11:33)

Yes.

[Frank] (11:33 - 11:44)

This is where the changes have to be made. Once you go for planning approval, any change you do after that for the construction drawings, and it has to be early on, are only minor. You're not changing windows.

[Amelia] (11:45 - 11:45)

Yes.

[Frank] (11:45 - 11:51)

Oh, okay. You adjust the door. TV's going somewhere. Kitchen adjustments. There are adjustments, right?

[Amelia] (11:52 - 11:52)

Mm-hmm.

[Frank] (11:53 - 12:02)

Because if you're working with the builder, they're already starting to think, right, talk to joiner, talk to flooring guys, talk to plaster, all this, figuring out certain pricing.

[Amelia] (12:03 - 12:03)

Yes.

[Frank] (12:03 - 12:08)

You start doing major changes, they may affect your planning approval, and you have to go back again.

[Amelia] (12:08 - 12:09)

Yes.

[Frank] (12:09 - 12:10)

And we've had that.

[Amelia] (12:10 - 12:13)

Did you do that? Did you do an amendment to your planning?

[Frank] (12:14 - 12:15)

Yeah, mine's not quite the same.

[Amelia] (12:15 - 12:16)

Okay.

[Frank] (12:16 - 12:22)

Yeah. But, yes, doing an amendment afterwards, yes, I have done it. Yeah, I'm the worst client in the office, aren't I?

[Amelia] (12:22 - 12:26)

I was going to say, you would be the worst person for trying to overthink your design.

[Frank] (12:26 - 12:33)

Oh, I've done it twice now, and it's the worst. So, confession time here. Design my own house.

[Amelia] (12:34 - 12:34)

Yes.

[Frank] (12:34 - 12:36)

This is the second time I've done it.

[Amelia] (12:36 - 12:36)

Yes.

[Frank] (12:37 - 13:02)

And I've gone down the same rabbit hole and analysing like you wouldn't believe, from windows to wall thicknesses to going up to passive house to coming to high performance, thermal performance, going through all the different glazing options, door options, kitchen options, and heating, hot water cylinders, electrical, monitoring, HRVs, bang, head explodes.

[Amelia] (13:02 - 13:14)

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. Even though I'm not a designer, I guess because we talk about this stuff on a regular basis, you question, okay, do I want a high performance house?

[Frank] (13:14 - 13:15)

Or don't I?

[Amelia] (13:16 - 13:18)

Can I afford it, you know? There's so many things.

[Frank] (13:19 - 13:25)

I go down this rabbit hole, but the thing I've learned so much that I can then share with my customers.

[Amelia] (13:25 - 13:25)

Yes.

[Frank] (13:26 - 13:35)

And even when I did my very first home, and I actually built it myself too, I learned so much. I was able to share that and share my mistakes.

[Amelia] (13:35 - 13:35)

Yes.

[Frank] (13:35 - 13:47)

So, it's been good. You learn the best from your mistakes. But getting all the changes and everything at that early concept and planning stage.

Once you get construction, you're not making major changes.

[Amelia] (13:48 - 13:49)

No, that's right.

[Frank] (13:49 - 13:52)

Or you're going to pay for them, and the delay to your project.

[Amelia] (13:53 - 13:53)

Yes.

[Frank] (13:53 - 14:00)

Okay. Some people really try and pressure us to speed up the process. Oh, I want to get started, but they're still making changes.

[Amelia] (14:01 - 14:03)

Yeah. Yeah, that makes no sense at all.

[Frank] (14:03 - 14:03)

It doesn't work.

[Amelia] (14:04 - 14:04)

No.

[Frank] (14:04 - 14:06)

The other part of that is selections.

[Amelia] (14:07 - 14:07)

Yes.

[Frank] (14:07 - 14:27)

Selections, you know, from your carpet, your tiles, your front door, hinges, door handles, paint, all this type of stuff, that takes a long time to really do that. And I highly recommend using interior decorators for that to really give you clarity on that. So, if I did it myself, It would be a bit ordinary, very blokey.

[Amelia] (14:29 - 14:30)

I can imagine.

[Frank] (14:31 - 14:41)

So, you also, you've got to remember when you don't make changes during the build, that's a really big one.

[Amelia] (14:41 - 14:41)

Yeah.

[Frank] (14:41 - 14:45)

Unless something's catastrophically stupid and the builder will point that out.

[Amelia] (14:45 - 14:45)

Yep.

[Frank] (14:45 - 14:50)

And no doubt the designer or architect might have already pointed that out. When you actually see it live, you go...

[Amelia] (14:50 - 14:52)

That doesn't look right.

[Frank] (14:52 - 14:53)

That wasn't the best idea.

[Amelia] (14:54 - 14:54)

Yep.

[Frank] (14:54 - 14:55)

Okay.

[Amelia] (14:55 - 15:06)

Here's another one for you. What about if you're having trouble communicating to your designer, maybe it's getting your design ideas across?

[Frank] (15:07 - 15:08)

In what way do you mean?

[Amelia] (15:08 - 15:10)

So, either the designer's not listening...

[Frank] (15:11 - 15:12)

Well, there's your problem.

[Amelia] (15:12 - 15:42)

Well, that's one problem. Or the other problem is, I think, for somebody that's coming off the street, they might not have designed anything before and they're trying to explain what they want and the designer's just not getting it. You know, they might come in and say, I want Hamptons, but style or whatever, and what the customer that's come in has said is what they think Hamptons is, is not the same thing as what the designer actually thinks Hamptons is.

And then it just, you know, like it just is miscommunication.

[Frank] (15:43 - 15:44)

Hampton's the funniest thing.

[Amelia] (15:44 - 15:45)

Isn't it? Yeah.

[Frank] (15:45 - 15:56)

Like, I've spoken to lots of designers about this. I remember once at the design awards we were talking, there was Hamptons, and then everyone was taking the piss the whole night calling all their designs Hamptons.

[Amelia] (15:57 - 15:58)

Oh, really?

[Frank] (15:58 - 16:04)

And we were just rolling around laughing because everyone was just taking the mickey because what is true Hamptons?

[Amelia] (16:04 - 16:04)

Yes.

[Frank] (16:04 - 16:06)

And then you got butchered Hamptons.

[Amelia] (16:06 - 16:08)

There's so many interpretations, honestly.

[Frank] (16:09 - 16:11)

But everyone had a good sense of humour about that.

[Amelia] (16:12 - 16:12)

Yes.

[Frank] (16:13 - 16:14)

About other people's houses.

[Amelia] (16:15 - 16:22)

But, I mean, it's a fair point in that, you know, you might be asking for all of these changes because the designer's just not getting it.

[Frank] (16:23 - 16:29)

Look, that is true. And I'll be honest, we're not immune to that. And sometimes we can't connect with the customer.

[Amelia] (16:29 - 16:34)

And I think that is the whole point is, you know, finding someone that actually gets you.

[Frank] (16:34 - 16:48)

I totally agree. And we definitely not had 100% success rate connecting with customers. I acknowledge that.

And in a way it hurts a bit, but they've found someone and they're happy and they've got their design. Well, that's okay.

[Amelia] (16:48 - 16:49)

Yeah.

[Frank] (16:49 - 17:04)

You know? Your pride's a bit beat up. But anyway, you get over it, you learn.

So I think you made a very, very good point there because you do need to get on with that designer. You need to build a connection. No different with your builder, you need to build that connection.

[Amelia] (17:04 - 17:04)

Yes.

[Frank] (17:04 - 17:20)

So, yeah, another interesting thing you point out about the style, people can't convey their feeling on the style and the look. 

[Amelia]

Yes. 

[Frank]

Because I want something ultra modern. Okay, cool. And I'll bring out all these pictures and go, no.

[Amelia] (17:20 - 17:22)

That's not what I want. 

[Frank] (17:22 - 17:28)

Well, show me what you want. And we're going through pictures and stuff. Oh, that's it. That's nothing like it.

That's a rendered hip roof.

[Amelia] (17:28 - 17:28)

Yeah.

[Frank] (17:28 - 17:54)

Yeah, sure. Happy to do that for you. You know?

Look, some people can't explain it. And that's okay. But that's also the job of the designer to figure that out early on, even before you put the quote together.

And just a thing to anyone out there, if you are talking to designers and architects, if they don't get you before they actually price your money, I seriously question whether they're going to even bother trying to get you after they pay the money.

[Amelia] (17:54 - 17:55)

Yeah, true.

[Frank] (17:55 - 18:08)

You know? I think one thing sometimes gets forgotten is the functionality of the space when you're refining. And you've got to listen to your designers and architects to look at the functionality, how things actually work.

[Amelia] (18:09 - 18:10)

Yes. The layout.

[Frank] (18:10 - 18:18)

The layout. But also be careful, people pushing their design ideas on you too. If you don't like it, just freaking tell them, this is bullshit, I don't like it.

[Amelia] (18:18 - 18:19)

Yep.

[Frank] (18:19 - 18:20)

Just say it.

[Amelia] (18:20 - 18:20)

Yep.

[Frank] (18:20 - 18:34)

I'd rather people be fair thinking with me, I don't like it. I don't like my toilet in my bathroom. It's like, you have a bath, shower, vanity, and toilet.

Lots of people do it. And I've heard other people, it's not what I really wanted. And I'm going, what the hell?

[Amelia] (18:34 - 18:35)

Why didn't you say something?

[Frank] (18:36 - 18:43)

I wanted a separate toilet. Then just say it. Oh, they said it didn't fit.

And I said, well, what a load of horseshit. Of course it's going to fit. You make it fit.

[Amelia] (18:43 - 18:43)

Yep.

[Frank] (18:43 - 19:02)

So that really ticks me off. They didn't get what I wanted in a toilet. It's like a minor thing compared to other things.

Yeah, I find poor use of space really drives me mad. When people, you know, they put an angle wall on it and stuff like that just for a look where functionality, it's not great.

[Amelia] (19:02 - 19:02)

Yes.

[Frank] (19:03 - 19:14)

Also be conscious of wherever your budget sits, the simplicity of the build. If you want cantilevers and things like that, people don't understand how much they cost. Oh, wet decks.

[Amelia] (19:15 - 19:17)

Oh, yes. Anyway. We don't do those.

[Frank] (19:17 - 19:38)

No, we refuse to do them. I'm sorry, James Hardie, we don't. We only do it one way and that's concrete.

I want the houses to be there for a long, long time. But this is where we pass on how we feel about these things because we only want to build a quality building, you know, design a quality building that can be built and it's going to be there for a long time. It's not going to leak.

[Amelia] (19:39 - 19:39)

Yes.

[Frank] (19:40 - 19:42)

No box gutters. 

[Amelia] (19:42 - 19:45)

Yes.

[Frank]

I think everyone knows that. 

[Amelia]

Yes. A Frankism here.

[Frank] (19:45 - 19:48)

No. I've spoken to a lot of other designers and they're much the same.

[Amelia] (19:49 - 19:51)

Okay. Well, that's good to know.

[Frank] (19:51 - 20:05)

Because they know. Because if they really care about what they do, they understand where the failure points are. One thing I do recommend, and this is part of, you know, when you adjust the design, if you're reusing furniture, your precious pieces, they have to be designed into the house.

[Amelia] (20:05 - 20:06)

Yes. That makes sense.

[Frank] (20:07 - 20:08)

You know, it's not hard.

[Amelia] (20:08 - 20:11)

Especially like family heirlooms and things like that.

[Frank] (20:11 - 20:12)

Oh, totally, totally.

[Amelia] (20:13 - 20:16)

You know, if you've got pianos or sideboards or whatever that need to fit.

[Frank] (20:16 - 20:23)

All that stuff. Yeah, totally. But please be aware when you do do changes, it's going to cost you money.

[Amelia] (20:24 - 20:24)

Yes.

[Frank] (20:25 - 20:47)

So we at Prime Design, we work on a fixed price because we work hard early on to understand the whole thing. But we are very clear we only give X amount of meetings and changes at each stage. And if you go over that, then we have a little chat to say, well, this is going to cost you extra.

Some like it, some don't, but this is what's in the contract because that's the only way you can give a fixed price.

[Amelia] (20:48 - 20:48)

Yes.

[Frank] (20:48 - 21:02)

So if you want to pay someone a percentage, say, you can certainly do that. There's plenty of designers and architects that offer a percentage basis on the construction costs. But then you keep changing stuff.

Eventually you're going to pay for it some way.

[Amelia] (21:02 - 21:02)

Yeah.

[Frank] (21:03 - 21:15)

You know, this has been very clear. I keep talking about the clarity of your vision. This also comes down to doing your selections as well, being clear, you know, and doing your research.

What type of carpet do you want? Because the range of carpets is massive.

[Amelia] (21:16 - 21:25)

Yes. Yes, it is. It can be an overwhelming process. There are a lot of things to choose, especially if it's a custom-type build.

[Frank] (21:25 - 21:26)

We just had a podcast about windows.

[Amelia] (21:27 - 21:27)

We did, yes.

[Frank] (21:27 - 21:32)

Choosing windows, same thing. Even though a lot of people don't consider it, I think it's a very important thing. You can go and have a look at the frames.

[Amelia] (21:33 - 21:34)

Yeah, good point.

[Frank] (21:34 - 22:03)

Funny story. I was out looking at, you know, in the real estate mode last Saturday with my son, searching for houses to buy, and we went to this one house built about 25, 30 years ago. And all the fly screens, the frames were bent in.

[Amelia]

Why? 

[Frank]

And I'm going, what's going on? 

[Amelia]

That's weird.

[Frank]

But it would have looked like someone got a Jimmy bar, crowbar, and tried to break in. 

[Amelia]

Oh. 

[Frank]

And we're trying to figure all this out. All the fly screens were buggered.

[Amelia] (22:03 - 22:03)

Yeah.

[Frank] (22:04 - 22:08)

Anyway, we go through, and it's this old island block of paving, heritage block.

[Amelia] (22:09 - 22:09)

Yes.

[Frank] (22:09 - 22:30)

With colonial bars on single-glaze sliding windows. 

[Amelia]

Yep. 

[Frank]

And what I worked out, and I was working with my son having a look at this, I go, you know what?

I reckon these sliding windows, the fly screens aren't supposed to come out. And the only way they can get in, they're all jammed in there because you pull the sliding door and you couldn't get the fly screen out from the inside.

[Amelia] (22:30 - 22:31)

Ah, okay.

[Frank] (22:31 - 22:41)

I think it's a really poor design. You should have seen this. This was like really bad. The house still sold for something like 70 or 80 grand more than the asking price.

[Amelia] (22:41 - 22:42)

Holy moly.

[Frank] (22:42 - 22:50)

It was wild. Anyway, again, choosing the right windows. So this takes time, and you can change your mind on this a fair bit too.

[Amelia] (22:50 - 22:52)

Yeah. Yep. Once you've done more research.

[Frank] (22:53 - 23:02)

Yes, definitely. So big things to consider with endless changes, extra design fees, approvals, delayed because you keep mucking around with it.

[Amelia] (23:03 - 23:03)

Yes.

[Frank] (23:03 - 23:04)

Repricing it.

[Amelia] (23:04 - 23:05)

Yes.

[Frank] (23:05 - 23:06)

So especially when it's in construction.

[Amelia] (23:07 - 23:08)

Exactly right.

[Frank] (23:08 - 23:12)

And analysis paralysis. It's a real thing.

[Amelia] (23:12 - 23:14)

Just over analysing it.

[Frank] (23:14 - 23:14)

Hmm.

[Amelia] (23:14 - 23:15)

Yep.

[Frank] (23:15 - 23:16)

Yeah, I know what that's like.

[Amelia] (23:16 - 23:17)

Yeah, I can imagine.

[Frank] (23:17 - 23:27)

Hmm. So even the professionals do it. So then there is, look, you've got to trust the people and build that relationship, and you've got to stop refining and start building.

[Amelia] (23:27 - 23:34)

Yeah. Yeah. I guess, is there a stop point though? Like, where is that point? Where is the line?

[Frank] (23:34 - 23:39)

Well, I can't answer that, but look, I do tell customers there is a line.

[Amelia] (23:39 - 23:39)

Yeah.

[Frank] (23:39 - 24:01)

Sometimes they don't like it. Other times they take it on the chin. But you have to decide yourself, because understand you can't make endless changes.

It's false economy. That means you're not sure about the whole thing in the first place, and you're not going to build the perfect house, and stop talking about your forever home. That doesn't exist anymore, because everyone keeps moving, because your life changes, your lifestyle changes.

[Amelia] (24:01 - 24:04)

True. People have long-term homes though.

[Frank] (24:04 - 24:06)

Of course, but it's still not going to be perfect.

[Amelia] (24:06 - 24:23)

I guess if you are looking to do changes, I guess you have to really think about, okay, why am I doing these changes? What is the purpose? Does it improve function?

Does it solve a real problem? And how will it matter to your day-to-day operations of the functionality of that house?

[Frank] (24:23 - 24:25)

That's right. Is it going to irk you?

[Amelia] (24:25 - 24:26)

That's right.

[Frank] (24:26 - 24:29)

At least with paint you can repaint it. 

[Amelia]

True. 

[Frank]

Flooring you can't fix.

[Amelia] (24:30 - 24:34)

Yep. All right. We might wrap it up there, folks. Thanks for listening to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast.

[Frank] (24:35 - 24:35)

Catch ya’s later.

[OUTRO] (24:44 - 24:48)

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