S2 Ep6: James Bartle

Outland Denim founder James Bartle wants to change the world for the better via a great pair of jeans. Founded as a way to combat modern slavery, Outland Denim has trained, employed and empowered women in Cambodia to leave the cycle of poverty and exploitation and have a brighter future for themselves and their families. Brands and designers including Karen Walker, Artclub by Heidi Middleton, Spell and Aje have all collaborated with Outland to spread the word via premium denim – and that is just the beginning. 

Transcript

0:06

Hi, I'm Glynis Trailnash and welcome to the final episode of Season 2 of In Fashion. Giving back is almost a given in the fashion industry these days. A lot of brands now have some sort of social impact element to one degree or another. But not many brands are founded for the pure reason of helping others. Outland Denim is one of these rare brands. Its founder, James Bartle, wanted to find a way to tackle human trafficking and decided that training, employing and empowering women in Cambodia Would be one place to start. Of course, denim production comes with its own issues. And that was another hurdle that James had to tackle before launching the brand in 2016. James is one of the most inspiring individuals I've met in my years covering the fashion industry. And I hope you enjoy hearing his story firsthand on this episode of In Fashion.

GTN: 1:04

James, so good to see you. It's been a little

James: 1:06

while. It has been really good to see you again. Yeah.

GTN: 1:09

And look, I always like catching up with you because there's always something interesting happening with Outland and we'll get to the latest interesting things in a little while. But for those out there that Outland Denim, can you start at the very beginning and explain? What the impetus was for you to start a brand like Outland?

James: 1:28

Yeah, well way back in the beginning it was um, my wife and I along with a couple of friends going to the movies one night to watch the Liam Neeson film Taken and I know it's a fictional film, but for me it hit me really hard it really It just made me angry. I couldn't believe that, um, you know, human trafficking was a real thing. And at the end of the film it had some script that just said that these things still happen in the world. And I remember walking away from the film that night with, um, my wife and friends and I was talking to my mate and I just said, We have to start some kind of vigilante. We have to go and find these people and... Kill them. And my, my wife, uh, pipes up from behind. Yeah. Maybe a bit extreme, but you know, it's, that's the kind of anger that it provokes in you when you see just this barbaric way of life for so many people. And my wife pipes up and says that, you know, I don't have the same combat skills as Liam Neeson. I need to find a different way. And so that led us on the journey of the next few years of, um, Erica, my wife, again, just educating me on the realities of human trafficking and teaching me that. today that that problem, you know, uh, modern slavery is estimated to be like 50 million people caught up in it, you know, and that's, that's mind boggling to me that we don't have, you know, the resources globally. I mean, we do have the resources, but they're not distributed for those people to be able to be cared for, you know, knowing that slavery is underpinned by poverty. And so, you know, learning these things, I guess it just, it just started to take root in me as to something that was, um, I was becoming passionate about and then by chance at an event I had an opportunity because I met a rescue agency to travel with them into Southeast Asia. And so I did that in 2011 and it was on that trip that I saw a young girl for sale. It was very clear when we saw her that she was scared and intimidated and it was seeing that for myself, not in a newspaper, not on the movies, but seeing with my own eyes this little girl. I was for sale on the line and I asked the Australian director who was showing me around, you know, what was going on and he said, James, if you, if you look around, there's these little girls are everywhere and you know, to me that was just moment in my life that I can look back on and say right there and then I decided I wanted to be a part of the solution. Again, I would have loved to have been the guy that runs in and kicks the door down and runs away and saves the day with a girl over his shoulder. But I know that if this problem is to change, it's going to take a different approach. It's very important that we have all kinds of approaches that are addressing this particular issue. Um, and ours is really focused on an economic one. We know that if we're able to. Change someone's life by equipping them with all the tools they need so they're not vulnerable, so their family aren't vulnerable. Then you start to make generational change. And that's really what our model has been built on.

GTN: 4:09

Yeah. Amazing. And so you decided to do denim because there was a logic behind that because everyone needs denim. It's a product that's democratic, it's, uh, popular, it never goes out of style.

James: 4:19

It's the ultimate product. I mean, uh, for me at the time it wasn't as strategic as that, but it's, um, certainly in hindsight, yes, that's the reason we do denim. it's a, it's an incredible product. And, you know, I often say if you've got a beautiful pair of jeans in your wardrobe, it's probably something you'll never want to throw out. And the reason is it's a little bit like a song. You know, you hear a song and it reminds you of a moment and... beautiful jeans can do that. And I know that sounds corny and ridiculous, but it's actually true. Um, you know, and not for everybody, but for lots of people, I'll go, I can't throw that away. I think about my wife. She had a pair of sass and bi jeans when I met her and Um, they were my favorite jeans on her. And that reminded us of, you know, when we met and, um, those genes represented something. And so again, I do, I think it's a, it's the ultimate product in anyone's wardrobe for, you know, having this kind of change.

GTN: 5:06

Yeah. So you decide to do denim. This is a great idea. And then of course you start to look into denim. Yeah. What was the next learning

James: 5:13

curve for you? Wow. So many learning curves. And I think, you know, coming to an understanding of how. how vile the denim industry is, you know, it's destroying people's lives, but at the same time destroying the ecosystems they live within. And I think it was when I, when I saw the impact of this industry on the people's lives, whom I had gone, I've dedicated my life to helping. It was, wow, you can't turn your back on this environmental stuff, you know, because previously. I, I thought it was just the hippies that cared about this stuff. I didn't realize that there was a reality to it. And you know, and I, and I'm somebody who sits on, um, quite in the middle on lots of these issues. I don't, I, I don't care whether you believe in global warming or you don't. The reality is that we've got this planet and we should look after it and we all know what is and what isn't. And so really I went, well, if I, if I want to look after the planet and do the right thing, then I, I have to make it differently. And so that led us on the journey How do we reduce the energy, water, what kind of chemicals are we, going to be using in our products? And so, um, there was a lot to learn and we're still learning and we're still investing into trying to find better ways to be able to produce our product. But ultimately the goal is, and we believe this is possible, to be able to create a product that activates a cycle of freedom for humanity. Well, it already does that, but also potentially heals the planet. And when I say heals the planet, I mean... Every time we make, wear and sell, and then that product gets to it's end of life, that the environment has been made healthier because of that cycle. And that's really what we're working on. We're getting very close. We hope on being able to launch technology that will help with that. Um, but You imagine, then consumerism isn't a dirty word anymore. It's something that's really positive.

GTN: 6:55

Yeah, we can all buy for change, buy for better, all of that. Are you, I remember once you told me in an interview that ignorance is an advantage. Yeah. Still the case?

James: 7:06

Well, I don't know, only time will really tell us if it's still the case, but um, you know what, historically for me, you know, Being naive to the realities of what we were getting into, yes, absolutely, from an entrepreneurial standpoint, or having the guts to attempt what we're trying to attempt. I mightn't have had the courage to do it if I knew everything that I know today. But, um, definitely know that, It's because of, I guess, what I didn't know that we have ended up where we are. Yeah.

GTN: 7:36

Cause you put like five years of self funded research into this brand before you launched in

James: 7:40

2016. Didn't you? That's right. So yeah, we spent, and when I say self funded, no, there was people that even donated to us, you know, I remember we were flipping sausages and raising money and doing it, whatever we could do to be able to. Um, fund the research and develop something that had the social impact that it has today. so it's, it's been a long, it's been a long road.

GTN: 8:00

And so what did you do in terms of The Cambodia project, because this is really the heart and soul of Outland Denim is your factory in Cambodia and mostly women that you employ there.

James: 8:12

Yeah, look, it's really about, um, working alongside rescue organizations. And they all do it differently. And we work alongside a number of NGOs that specialize in that. And they then identify people that are. Um, either at risk to being sold, trafficked, exploited in, in a very range of, of ways. Um, or they already have been and then they've been rescued and brought out and they need a safe place to be able to, rebuild their life. That's where we really, that's our strength. So they come in, they work with us, and they mightn't have any skills, but our goal is to be able to equip them with the skills that they need to be able to thrive in their life. And that doesn't just mean how to make a pair of jeans, though that's a really big part of it, knowing how to make every part of a product, um, but it's about the life skills that they'll get. It could be around women's health. Um, one of the most powerful things we've done is around financial literacy. So you're earning more money than you're used to earning. Now how do I... Make sure that money works for me into the future. It gives me financial security, that I can pay my rent, and that I can save for a holiday, that I can make sure my kids are educated. So, it's those things that, that's really what the power of Outland is. And I think the most, um, powerful aspect of it is something that we never set out to achieve, which was, we had people reporting, our staff reporting, that they had no dignity because of what they had experienced, the trauma they had faced. And then they go... on into their career with Outland, and a number of years down the track start reporting that they have this dignity. And the reason they have this dignity is because Outland didn't fix their life. Outland provided a platform for them to fix their lives, and they fixed their lives. They're the ones that worked hard. They're the ones that got financial security. They're the ones that have become educated. Their families have benefited from this. They're no longer sitting, living under a plastic sheet. And so when those sorts of things start to happen, They started to report that they now have this dignity and I think that's something that was Certainly not thought of in the beginning from my perspective and something that I think unfortunately in a charity scenario Um, something that they'll never get, because it's handout. They didn't work for it. They weren't given the things they need to be able to do it themselves. And that's something that I love about our model. Yeah.

GTN: 10:20

Because as you say, you do classes with them that are well beyond just learning how to sew and make and all of that. You have the financial literacy. You even do English classes, I think. That's right, yeah. Yeah, yeah, all sorts of things. And can you tell me some of, like, any standout? Not case studies, because that sounds really impersonal, but like any people that stand out to you and your team that have really made a phenomenal change in their

James: 10:42

lives. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you about the very first person that we employed. And then I'd love to tell you about just one more as well. Um, the very first, uh, girl we employed, she was 17, I think, when she came to work with us, she came from a background where she was, um, sexually exploited. She came from a very poor family that did live under a plastic sheet and, after a number of years working without land, she was able to, build a home for her family. So, um, going from a plastic sheet to living in this six by six meter. Home with like a colourbond roof, wasn't colourbond but you know, an iron roof and um, timber cladding and well off the ground for monsoon season and so straight away, um, she's completely changed her family's life and she was also able to buy her sister back from a man that owned her and you know, um, For me, that's, you know, it still brings tears to my eyes when I think about the impact. It wasn't an, it wasn't an intention. It wasn't because of the most amazing strategy that we'd built and we just knew it was because of trial and error over the years of trying to find a solution where people could thrive, and we found one, and this girl thrived. And then to... Another, another girl who, was, um, severely disabled or is severely disabled, she came in, she couldn't get a job because of her disability, and it's often those sorts of people that are exploited really poorly, or horrifically. And, she came, she learnt to sew. She became one of our better sewers. Um, you know, she had to have specialized seating and all those sorts of things. And now she's worked her way through as a sewer and she's worked her way into the administration team. And so, you know, I look at her and I just have so much pride in what the system has been able to create. But more so than that, in her. And her ability to be able to overcome because these women are overcomers and it's not just for them individually. It's for their families Yeah And you know their children may never have to suffer the things that they've suffered because their mums were so courageous their mums took this Chance to try something new to step out of their comfort zone I mean, you know for some women they they have grown up in a KTV bar It's like a karaoke bar in Asia And those bars are often, um, you come in, you drink at that bar, and then you can, you can purchase, um, the services of one of these ladies, if you wish. Now, some of these women That's all I've ever known. And so I know one of the rescue agencies actually had to have a vibe of a KTV bar from the lights and the music and those things because it gave them a sense of that's what they're used to. That's normalizing for them. You know, so it's hard to get your head around, isn't it? But, um, but the women Outland are absolutely courageous. And, you know, another thing that I love about, um, And when we talk about dignity is that, um, the products that they make get stocked on the shelves of David Jones, Motor Operandi, beautiful retailers around the world. They made that product. They came from, you know, Um, having no hope to being, you know, artisans of beautiful products sold to people who care about them. Yeah. It's

GTN: 13:41

amazing. God makes me emotional every time I hear these stories and, and the women write little notes that there's like little things printed inside the jeans, aren't there?

James: 13:49

That's right. On the inside of every pocket of an Outlander and a product is a thank you message from one of those seamstresses. And, you know, it is a really powerful thing. And I think. What is so powerful about that is because it's, it is hard to, to really get the power of that purchase. But when someone buys this product, they mightn't even know what's behind the brand. They may just love it for the product and then one day they're at home and they're washing the product and their pants are inside out and they see this note. And from a marketing standpoint, being able to connect people to the real reason we exist is a really powerful thing. And it means that we get loyalty and people come back and they buy again. And they don't just buy again, they tell people about it. And word of mouth is the best form of marketing that there is. So, you know, it really does work. Absolutely. From a holistic standpoint. Yeah.

GTN: 14:36

And how many women are there now working in the factory in Cambodia?

James: 14:38

So we're at a hundred now. Yep. Um, and you know, here's a, you know, one part of the story that, um, Uh, you know, we don't talk about very much. You know, it's not all, it's not all roses. You know, it's not all positive. There's been so many trials along the way, and you know, something that I've not spoken about, um, certainly on a podcast before, is, um, in December last year, um, we had to make the decision to close one of our two factories. You know, financially, we should have done it the moment COVID hit, but there's no way on earth you could do something like that with the people that we're here to support. And so we had to carry it until we got through, um, those first three years to give people stability. And, you know, it's hardest thing I've ever had to do was I flew over to Cambodia and stood in front of everybody and they said, I have to close the factory. So you've got two choices. You move to the capital city to where the other facility, and you've got a job there. But if you can't move to the city, um, you need to find other employment and this is the cutoff date. Now my hand had to be forced on something like that because I just, I just couldn't bear the thought of it. And my fear was that people would end up in these terrible situations again. You know, and all I was was just another... White guy coming in dangling the carrot pretending he can save the world and doesn't have a clue how to do it you know, and that's my fear and that was the thing that was sort of most overwhelming about it and Six months on we completed our six month survey of everybody that moved on and every single person was able to find employment Every single person had the skills to be able to make their own way and you know to me that just says Wow, like it actually works, you know, we've actually got proof that this really does work Not one person ended in up in prostitution or any terrible situation that could happen for someone so severely poor. Yeah, these people had skills Yeah,

GTN: 16:24

amazing because how much manufacturing is going on up in Cambodia generally speaking there is

James: 16:29

a quite a lot or there is yeah Cambodia is a region where companies have gone to. They're all sort of pulling out for lots of reasons. Um, so, you know, they're, it's been hit hard. Cambodia has as many and Bangladesh right now is getting hit really hard. And so it's a, um, I guess it's one of the blights of the industry is that we go to one country, explore it and then go to the next. And, um, you know, for, for Outland where we're committed to the people of Cambodia and, whilst they'll let us keep coming into the country, um, we'll keep being there.

GTN: 16:56

Now Outlander's had ups and downs along the way. There have been a few sort of standout moments though, obviously. And one of the first ones, I think, was on that fateful tour of Australia by Meghan Markle and Prince Harry when Meghan wore a pair of Outland jeans and I was reporting daily on that. And it was suddenly like... Hold it. Outland. Oh my god, this is amazing. So what did that do for you,

James: 17:19

the Megan effect? Just, just, it was unbelievable. And look, even to today, even, you know, some, she's fallen out of popularity with some, but, you know, from my perspective, like, what she did for us, like, we'll forever be grateful to her for What she's done. She didn't have to do what she did and, um, to wear our brand exposed to the world. That's what she did. She exposed us to the world and, you know, it proved to me that the world care. The world really does want us to win and succeed and we've just, we've been given so much support. Um, you know, retailers would talk to us. They wouldn't talk to us before. They didn't know who we were. You're just another brand, you know. Um, but to expose our story and it was only not so long ago I was speaking to, princess Eugenie and, on her podcast and, she, she said, um, Oh, I think I heard about you through my cousin's wife, you know? And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh yeah. What's her name again? Yeah. But it was, you know, it was, it was just lovely to see how down to earth, um, she is. But just about when she, she asked the same question, what did this actually mean? And I said that, you know, this. meant that we employed 46 new people, you know, the impact of this, you know, the exposure, people deciding they want to align with our brand, you know, it had, it meant 46 new people got jobs, which meant their families got jobs. Um, which probably meant there was like 460 people directly impacted by that, you know, their lives will be different forever, you know, and so we can never underestimate the power of that kind of activation. Um, and we just are just one day I've never met her. I would love to. Hug her and thank her for what she did for us. So if you ever meet her, you can hug her, please pass it on. And

GTN: 18:58

actually, can you tell me a little bit about what the factory in Cambodia is like? Like, what the atmosphere

James: 19:02

is like there? Yeah, yeah. Well, look, it's like any workplace. It's the same as like our HQ here in Australia. It's, you know, some days are hard and some days are just fun. Um, you know, it goes up and down with, um, So, you know, at the moment we're really deep in production. And so what that means is that, um, we're not doing daily learnings or anything like that. We're in, we're in a period right now of a few weeks where we've got to head down, bum up and get this product made and out the door. And then we'll go into a lull and we've got the water festival coming up in Cambodia. So everyone goes home and has a holiday. Um, so it's really, um, It's up and down ebbs and flows of how busy we are, then we'll do a lot more learning, and then we'll go back into production, but it's about we are, I don't like the word big family because it's a little bit Patronizing in some ways I think, but we're a big team Who genuinely care and love each other and want the best for each other and People that come there want to stay. They don't want to leave. They don't want to get another job. And, um, we want to make sure that we maintain that sort of culture. Um, but at the same time, we're there to equip people to succeed. And that doesn't mean just it's easy. That means there's lots of hard stuff too. And that's a big part of what we do. We are going to teach you. what good work ethic looks like. We are going to teach you what a good attitude looks like. And over time, that's going to become natural to you. And when you get it, and you pair that with the skills, and the new learnings of being able to read and write, and all the other things that you're going to get there, you're going to be able to Be completely independent and you won't need us. And I guess that's really what that factory closure demonstrated to me was it works.

GTN: 20:45

Amazing. And also the partners that you obviously have elsewhere in terms of fabric sourcing and that sort of thing. Can you tell us a little bit about them?

James: 20:54

Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, choosing our partners and what's our supply chain going to look like. Um, Um, that's, that's been a really long road, um, digging into the supply chain and building trust that they trust us, that we're going to be able to, um, you know, make good on, you know, the orders that we're placing, that, that we're going to continue to order. We're not going to be one of the brands that statistically are just going to die. Um, that's, that's a big hurdle to overcome, but when they trust you and they start to open up their books, when they start to open up the realities of the supply chain, that's when you really get to see. What needs to happen? And you know, I think we, um, we've learned so much in the last four years in particular about supply chains, especially cotton, um, in Turkey, the way it's growing, the issues that are there. We focused on a region, so that's lots of brands and identifying what's happening in the brands, um, supply chains, and you know, I could tell you lots of dirty little secrets about what is happening, but that's not what our job is. Our job is to be able to go, hey, here are the issues. How do we create a system that rectifies The negative of a supply chain. So yes, we can, we can tell you where our cottons come from, um, in the farm. But we've got to go bigger than that because all that we do if we just go, hey, our supply chain is clean and we don't identify the, the issues at large, then we'll never actually get to the bottom of them. People just come to us because they think that, Oh, well, I can just guilt free purchasing. No, we want to tell you, we want to find and identify and actively look for the problems in the supply chain and they happen in our supply chain too. We're not, ever going to be, I guess, in a position where there's no risk of that. That's, that's a hundred percent always going to be a risk. And it's not about cancelling either. It's about okay, are these people we can work with to be able to rectify these issues as they come up? And if they are, then that's a good supply chain. If they're not, then that's a bad supply chain ultimately. Yeah. Oh,

22:44

interesting.

GTN: 22:45

It's such a intertwined world. It is. So, over the years, you've not only done your own brand, but you've also collaborated with and have started manufacturing for other brands and Karen Walker, I think, from New Zealand was I think the first one that you had. And you've done work with Spell out of near you guys in Queensland, but in Byron Bay in New South Wales. most recently speaking of Sass and Bide, you've been working with Art Club by Heidi Middleton, one of the founders. so what do these mean for Outland?

James: 23:13

I mean, they're huge. Um, Karen was like, it was a game changer for us in a number of ways. Um, Karen and Mikhail have created such an iconic brand, they're just so good at what they do. And so for her to want to do a collaboration with us was a little bit of a, um, pinch yourself moment. And then to work with their team and see how professional they are, we learned so much in that collaboration, it was the first one we ever did. And it also put us on the map, it meant that people took us more seriously because of Karen Walker was willing to work with Outlandenim, then Outlandenim must be okay, you know, and so it elevated our brand. And then we went to Spell, and it was different things. It was mass exposure, um, and a similar response from their audience. And their audience really cared, because, um, you know, they were communicating similar things, like we're trying to work out how to... Do better fabrics and how to reduce impact and they were communicating that to their audience already. So, when we came into the mix and we had already resolved some of those issues, um, it meant that their audience wanted to support Outland denim as well. So, we experienced growth and really good sales as a result of that. Because

GTN: 24:17

their social

James: 24:18

reach is... It's enormous. It's, it's incredible. Like, they've done such an amazing job of really building that social media following, um, and communicating well. I mean, they've even got, um, Facebook pages, which is, I can't, I think they're called Spell Angels or something like this. And people like swap their clothes and talk about new releases. And it's just like, wow, how do you get, like, that's a cult following. That's incredible. Yeah, totally. So hats off to those guys for what they've been able to achieve. And then. You know, Heidi is, um, uh, so our club, you know, being able to work with her was amazing. You know, she's such a genius and, um, that elevates our brand. It gives our brand, the vibes we want it to have, you know, to be able to align with her. As a brand and, bring that to the tables from a retailer perspective, they notice you, um, media notice you as a result of those things. You know, you're easily forgotten in the fast paced world that we're living in. And you know, this month we release a collaboration with age as well. So the other

GTN: 25:21

goal, people of Australian fashion celebrating 15 years this year. Yeah. Yeah.

James: 25:26

So, yeah, collaborations are important, um, important for us to be able to get to a wider audience and, um, it's a way for those brands to be able to contribute to something, um, or to contribute, contribute to our mission. Yeah. And does

GTN: 25:40

it push the, um, the women working there as well? Like in terms of new skills

James: 25:45

yeah, absolutely. And, and in, in particular, the age collaboration, you know, the, the beautiful products that have come out of that and. Um, there's new skills, there's new constructions that we've had to do, new washing techniques, all sorts of things that we've had to learn and do and, you know, back and forth and sampling. but it's been great to be able to work with the team that, really have a high standard and, and everyone we've worked with has had a really high standard, but, um, you know, it's just, again, just taking it to another level.

GTN: 26:12

And speaking of other brands, you've just. Acquired Nobody Denim, which is, you know, an iconic Australian denim brand. Tell us a little bit about

James: 26:20

that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's big. It's certainly news for us. Wasn't something that was planned. It wasn't the strategy. We've always dreamed of being able to have a quiver of brands that were... Spoken like a true surfer. Yeah, yeah, true. You know, to have a, brand house where you've got these brands that are all there to reach a wide range of people to be able to have an impact like Outlandetum has is got to be the ultimate goal. And when this particular opportunity presented itself, you know, at first I was like, well, no, we can't. I'd love to. But, you know, this is. You know, this brand's probably, um, beyond us. You're our biggest competitor. I don't understand how it would work. I mean, like all the questions are going through your head and then even, you know, I'm not the only decision maker in Outland and I've got to present that to others and get them on board. And, you know, the other director of Outland, I remember presenting it to him and he was just shocked that I was even considering why, why now, like we're in really difficult economic position as a country, it doesn't look like easing up. Anytime soon, but I'm optimistic by nature and sometimes that is good, sometimes that isn't good. I'm hoping this is one of those moments that is really good. Really good. Where you go, wow, like that was so smart in a really hard economic position to go and buy another brand. But, but let's face it, if I didn't, someone else would and nobody's our greatest competitor. Yeah. And so when I looked at the risks associated with not buying it, I, I knew it was, if it was possible. It was better for us to buy it and, you know, um, and know who your enemy is. Right. So now it's us, we're fighting ourselves

GTN: 28:02

and you've gone, you've opened another round of crowdsourcing, um, I believe for that. And you've done this before. What is it about, um, the crowdfunding model that you like? Cause I remember once you'd said to me that when you're raising money, it raising money is one thing, but it's about raising the right

James: 28:16

money. Yeah, I still believe that, um, this is the third round and, um, for some reason whenever we do an equity crowdfunding raise, we do it in the worst time possible. That's just our history, but, it is so important to have the right money and so you could go to a venture capitalist and, um, well for starters, that's, that's really hard money to get, um, at the moment, but you are virtually owned at that point You know, sometimes the decisions that need to be made, need to be made for what's right for the long term of a company, not short term growth. And, um, we're in this for the long haul. And so, being able to bring a large range of people into that, that care about the same things that we care about. That also want to return on their money. Um, is the right money and it means that we can remain true to our vision and we won't sell out because there's one massive stakeholder in it that has control to be able to push you in whatever direction they want which ultimately their greatest KPI is profit and although profit is one third of the equation, it's only one third of the equation, not all. 100 percent and so that's where it becomes difficult with some private equity and even impact investing to a degree hasn't really reached the Maturity, I don't believe in Australia at least where It's measuring all those things equally this social impact the environmental impact and the economic impact.

GTN: 29:42

So What do you think are the biggest challenges ahead for you guys? In the next kind of, you know... A couple of years.

James: 29:51

A couple of years. I think one of the big things for us is that we've got to be really careful that the brands support each other. So when we're running Outland and nobody alongside each other, that they're, they're not sabotaging each other. You know, ultimately we need to position themselves so that a retailer can benefit from both brands sitting in there. Um, I think one of the benefits that, that we will experience is that if the, if they're positioned well, it means we get more floor space in every retailer. It means that we're controlling that more than we would if someone. If we only had the one brand, um, and obviously, you know, the economy is unstable and we don't know what that's going to mean. Obviously, if you can make sure you can maintain cash flow coming through, these are huge opportunities to grow. Um, and so I think that's, that's another one of our big challenges, making sure that we can keep the cash coming through the business. Just to make sure that we're in a stronger position at the end of these challenges than we were going in. And ultimately, I think that's what we've just proven with this acquisition is that we came out of the last three years, which were really hard. We downscaled, we pulled out of all the international market. We, you know, went from two factories to one factory. And now we've ended up in a position coming out of it where we own two brands and our manufacturing capacity is larger. We're more efficient, and I hope that these next probably 12 to 24 months of what we see as being, could be quite turbulent. Um, that we'll do the same thing again, and I think it's possible because I don't exactly know all the time how we're going to achieve it. But what I do know is that we are going to achieve it, and we have to achieve it because we're fighting for something so much greater than just a business.

GTN: 31:31

And with the acquisition how many more people do you hope to be able to

James: 31:35

employ I would love over the next couple of years to double our workforce. Um, so we'll go from about 100 to 200. Um, and that's really at that point in time when we get to that scale. that's really proving the viability of this on a, on a, it's still a micro scale. as far as manufacturing facilities, they can have 5, 000 people in a manufacturing facility, you know, which is just, um, too many. but it proves that we can now take this and set it up in other countries. And ultimately that's the goal is we want to be able to set manufacturing facilities up around the world amongst the poorest people in the world. To be able to create economies in little towns or cities where they need a hand up and that's That's ultimately what our products always need to achieve.

GTN: 32:18

Yeah, what would, what would be your target places, do you think, after Cambodia?

James: 32:23

Well, we're currently looking, looking at different countries. Um, we're looking even at East Timor, and we're looking, you know, Ukraine was on my list there a while back, and you know, like, there's lots of places. I've always imagined being in Eastern Europe for some reason. Yeah. I don't know why. Um, maybe because of the movie taken. But, um, yeah, look, I... There's so much need everywhere. I mean, Australia hasn't escaped, you know? Yeah. My mind as well, like we, we've, for a number of years, we're looking at how do we give employment to refugees. Yeah. Um, you know, and we talk about now having innovation hubs here. I don't believe manufacturing is going to work in Australia because of the, the cost of wages. Unless it's a very expensive brand, the margins just aren't there. And that's reality. That's the biggest problem really, isn't it? It's, yeah. Yeah. Um, so. How do we have innovation hubs where we can, you know, have new skills to innovate and create, develop products and then be able to, where we can sustain, get the margin, you know, we can have really healthy manufacturing hubs as well. And so they work seamlessly together and, you know, reducing carbon emissions from travel and all those sorts of things. So, you know, there's a lot in that space and it's going to take a lot more than just us working on it. And I know lots of people are working on it. Um, so, you know, region wise. Close would be good. So there's a Europe's out of the question, you know, anywhere within an eight hour flight, you know.

GTN: 33:38

Ideally. Right. James, where do you want to see Outland in, say, 10 years time?

James: 33:46

What's your hope? I want to be the biggest. Don't hold back. Take on Levi's. Why, why would you say that publicly? No, but I I, no, that's true though. I do. I want to be the biggest premium debt brand in the world and not, not because of scale. And it mightn't be me that can take it there. It's probably gonna be someone way smarter than me that can take it there. But I wanna see the brand there. And the reason I wanna see the brand there is it's a beacon of hope that it can, it is possible. It is. You know, if we go to an investment community behind initiatives that are really trying to change the world, then the world would actually change. The problem is, one of the big problems is that we can't get the investment into. The brands, the solutions that are actually proven they can make the change because it has to be slow capital and That's ultimately what we're looking for is slow capital that will back us because we have a vision You know trust us that we can get there and there's gonna be lots of bumps along the way but I tell you what if we do if it's possible to Reach those kinds of goals like be the biggest premium denim brand in the world Then imagine the impact, you know, I know, I know what I'm saying and saying that too. So I know how crazy that sounds that everyone listening to this will go, you're an idiot, but, but, but I'm also okay with that, you know, I'm okay with that. And I think it's sometimes good to throw out the dream, you know, and it's accountability, isn't it? Well, I said, I told you that I want to be the biggest premium. And just for the record, Levi's isn't a premium. That's true. So different sort of, it is a different market. Yes. Yeah. I'm not saying I want to take on Levi's. But you never know.

GTN: 35:12

Watch this space. Well, James, always a pleasure to see you. Thank you so much for your time

James: 35:18

today. Really good. Thanks so much for having me.

35:22

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please share with your friends and on social media and subscribe, rate and review on your podcast platform of choice. You can also get in touch via Instagram at infashion underscore podcast. We'll be back with season three soon. Thanks again for listening. Until next time.