Navigating Sacrifice as High Performing Men with Bo and Cartwright | Episode 148

In this episode, Bo and Cartwright delve into the complexities of sacrifice in the lives of Christian men in their 20s and 30s. They explore the tension between personal ambitions and family responsibilities, the importance of humility, and the need for self-reflection. Through biblical examples and personal anecdotes, they emphasize the significance of understanding what sacrifices are truly beneficial and which may lead to self-destruction. The conversation encourages listeners to evaluate their lives, seek wise counsel, and prioritize their relationships with God, family, and community.

Takeaways

Sacrifice is a law that everyone must navigate.
Understanding the difference between good and bad sacrifices is crucial.
Men often sacrifice family time for career ambitions.
Ego can hinder personal growth and relationships.
Being present for family is more important than professional success.
Sacrificing time for self-reflection is essential for growth.
Biblical figures exemplify the importance of sacrifice.
Single men also face sacrifices in their journey.
Community support is vital for personal development.
Identifying what to sacrifice can lead to a more fulfilling life.

Sound bites

"Sacrifice your ego for humility."
"You have to be a safe place to fail."
"Good sacrifice vs. self-destruction."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Its Purpose
02:09 Understanding Sacrifice in Christian Life
08:02 Good vs. Bad Sacrifices: The Tension of Choices
13:51 The Impact of Sacrifice on Family and Relationships
20:00 Navigating Ego and Humility in Sacrifice
26:03 The Role of Sacrifice in Personal Growth
31:54 Sacrifice in the Context of Fatherhood
37:53 Biblical Examples of Sacrifice
44:03 Reflecting on Personal Sacrifices
50:05 Final Thoughts and Encouragement

Keywords

sacrifice, Christian men, family, relationships, personal growth, ego, humility, biblical examples, fatherhood, self-reflection

Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:19.137)

Yeah, let's kick it off. All right, everybody. Welcome back to the Men are Forged podcast with Cartwright Moores. I'm Bo Morgan. This is a really, really fun project that we've started, what, about a month ago. And we are here to basically explore what every man, Christian man in their 20s and 30s wrestle with.

as Christians, because I think a big common theme probably for people that aren't Christians is like, well, these Christians have it all figured it out. Or they at least act like they do, but they don't. That's probably more common. But we are here to explore the things that we wrestle with every single day as Christians.

at the caveat, want, you know, I hope men are wrestling with this now in their 20s and 30s, because you will. I mean, the more conversations I have with men in their 40s, 50s, 60s is I wish I wrestled with it more of these topics and thought about them more because I'm forced to because of pain, failure, loss, whatever has forced me to now reflect on these things.

Yeah, so really a common thing that we'll kind of see when we talk about is the tension in certain things that we feel between like, you know, what we deal with as Christian men and just as men in general, and almost in a way seeing the value in it. And so one of those things, the thing we want to talk about today is this idea of sacrifice and, you know, first identifying

Speaker 2 (02:09.55)
what that means to sacrifice, the idea that it can be good or it can be bad. A lot of times, you hear these common terms that are in the Bible, like sacrifices in the Bible lot. And so, first, getting an idea and defining what it is. So, I was hoping you could kind of do that for us first.

And we're always sacrificing something at end of day. We're sacrificing time, we're relationships, we're sacrificing money, whatever, for something else. If we're going back to the Bible, I would say in the Bible, especially all leading up to Jesus' sacrifice was in a level of atonement for sins, wrong behavior, but I think at end of the day, when we do give up something, we are, there is a level of atonement.

What do mean by atonement?

We're trying to write a wrong. I'm trying to earn my way back into, well, in the atonement was being made right with God. And I think in the proverbial modern culture, we're all trying to subconsciously do that on our own. We're trying to like some form of whether we know it consciously or not. It's like we're trying to make ourselves right.

Whether that's being successful in business or having a certain image or... Yeah, respect, recognition. Yeah, yeah. And so I think that is a form of sacrifice or atonement because we give up something for that. You know, a modern day one is like, Hey, I will sacrifice my family time with them, time with my kids, time to develop my marriage for...

Speaker 2 (03:39.288)
getting respect from people.

Speaker 1 (04:05.229)
financial well-being for building wealth, building a company, build X, right? You know, and I think some of us we've justified that in our head because there's... those... Right. Yeah. I think we did talk about it last week, whole Walter White thing, which is like, man. Oh yeah. We really unpeeled that layer, that onion a little bit, peeled back. was like, am I really doing it for them or are they really doing it for me? Do I need to fill that level? And I think there is...

For my family.

Speaker 1 (04:32.684)
And this is where I think we're maybe getting to, but I may not jump ahead here, but like, there's something good about wanting to build something that especially adds value to others. It serves others, but there is, and therefore, then we can over justify it and.

that in us. Yeah. mean that's...

Speaker 1 (04:55.758)
I I feel that tension sometimes. Maybe God hasn't given me the ultimate thing that I just want to spend 10, 15 hours a day doing because I would. I that's thought in my head. That's a little probably maybe a little TMI, but like thinking about, I think about also like maybe if God gave me a thing, would I be trustworthy enough? Or would I sacrifice my family? Because we talk about at the end of the day, like, yeah, my family needs my provision.

But more than that, they my presence. Yeah. It's like, my son, he's going to remember that. And there are countless stories of that. obviously my wife does too. That's why she married me. And that's what some men forget. like, we put the facade of provision and going to work and building.

But really our wives like, yeah, it's awesome that you're providing this for me. But then they, wanted to be married to you. Right. Therefore I want to spend time with you. You know, anyway, man, I like I'm getting off track, but.

No, I think it's perfect. I it's like, I would be curious if you could like survey a hundred men in their fifties. Yeah. I mean, what percentage of those guys have dealt with that? You know what mean? Like it's not a unique thing to just really highly successful people or like people that are married and that, you know, ended up not having a good marriage or it ended up coming off the rails. I just, what I'm trying to say is, is like,

No.

Speaker 2 (06:31.82)
this idea of sacrifice. it's not, you're not going to, you probably with the men that you meet with, would imagine it's probably not like it's a common theme for everybody. Yeah. You know I mean? Like if you're experiencing this as a guy in your twenties and thirties, they're trying to learn about it and, and kind of be shaped into who you're going to become or what you want to be. this is not something what I'm trying to say is this is definitely something that you'll wrestle with. Yes.

Right. 100%. And this is the whole point of why I started this podcast and why I brought you on, because we have to reflect on these things now, because we'll get to our 50s, and we're just doing what's been modeled to us. We're just repeating the past. it's like, no, I think each one of us is meant to build something new and unique. anyway, it goes back to what we talked about earlier with the

concept of rest even, but like in the day we're sacrificing something for something else. Right? We're putting something down to pick up something else. Yeah. And what is that? Yeah. You know, and I think that's the discussion.

Yeah, that's really good. So this is what this might be a good start. What is the, give me your thoughts on what's there, or maybe even examples. What's an example of like a good sacrifice as a Christian man? And then what's an example of a bad sacrifice?

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:05.314)
Ha

Speaker 1 (08:09.07)
Do you want me to get to the L-way thing or later? Yeah, let's do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think...

I think that's perfect. Because that would be bad sacrifice, right?

Well, that's the thing. That's what's so at the tension of it. guess this is what we're. So what do you sacrifice it? Cause I think going back to, you know, what we're talking about, like John Elway, if any of my, came out, as paint Manning's company, think produced this Omaha doc. Yeah. Omaha productions through Netflix. So we all seen it came out during, around Christmas time. It's really interesting. It's hard to sum up a whole guy's life or even career in an hour and a

documentary but there was something like as a sports fan I knew the story of Elway his sports story you know guy for 16 17 years struggled to win the Super Bowl mm-hmm was a great quarterback first overall pick had success early in his 20s Stanford baseball player and football player didn't win a lot in college but that's you know you played for Stanford that kind of part of it right right

But it had insane numbers to the point he's number one overall pick. But he doesn't win the big one, but he meets his wife at Stanford. They end up having three kids during his career. But there's always this thing he's chasing and it was a little, they kind of hinted at it throughout the documentary with his kids. Like this was the 100 pound, know, thousand pound gorilla in the room in our house was this weight he was carrying.

Speaker 1 (09:46.606)
From the organization from the fans from the media of like I am I'm the guy who screws it up in the big game Yeah, you know or I can't win the ultimate prize in my profession Which I phrased it that way for a reason right? That's what we always think Yeah, but and he gets the but then he gets the industry last two years. He wins the Super Bowl and even this last year He was the NFL he's the Super Bowl MVP and

It's like, man, wow, what a story of resilience, grind, just pursuit of the ultimate prize in the ultimate team sport, right? And even his teammates praised him. He wasn't an ego guy. He was a team guy. He played cards with them. He showed up. He did more the work behind the scenes. And like some of his teammates say, like no one knew really how hard he worked, you know, as talented as he was, you know, he could...

throw a football, you know, through a wall kind of guy. Like, but he was, he showed up and did the work. Well, he then, like they then get to where he went through the MVP and he's like, and then I retire.

So I had the loss of a football career. And then he goes, and then it says, well, then I had the next two or three years of the hardest of my life ever. Lost my twin sister to cancer, lost my dad to a heart attack who was close with, and then was divorced. And you're just like, kind of like, he sacrificed. Ultimately, what we think from a distance is like, that's a good thing. He put his teammates first, he put the work first, he put the time in, he...

overcame obstacles. I mean, it's an admiral story. So this is where I go into your question of good and bad sacrifices. Like, man, this seemed like a good sacrifice, but then you're always giving something up and you see...

Speaker 2 (11:44.974)
Well, it seems good because he got the result he was seeking.

Yeah, which we just got is like, it's, you he wasn't a drug dealer. wasn't like a used car salesman. He wasn't doing, you know, nefarious stuff. It was like, man, he was in a team sport pursuing the ultimate goal. But you start hearing like they didn't dwell on it, but there was something like, you know, man, more time with my dad, more time with my sister.

Basically I lost my family because I pursued this thing. You know, lost my wife, my marriage fell apart. Yeah. You know, like all these things that he lost because he chose this. you're like...

There's just that tension you feel when you hear stories like that.

I would imagine that once you retire or you get out of the constant grind of trying to achieve whatever you're trying to achieve and things quiet down, wonder if the things that you sacrificed among the way get a little bit louder. You know what mean? I wonder if you start to see it more.

Speaker 1 (12:53.314)
Yeah, to you. Yeah. it's clearly, you know, and it's wild. mean, I'm sure there's part of him that goes, man, I wouldn't trade it for the world because what I accomplished and who I did it with and that that's good and wonderful. But then there's also like, and you know, and of course, his kids at the end of the documentary, it's like, now we're great. Right. Now he's a great granddad. It's great seeing him with our kids. But there's not like there's something to of like

would never get that time back.

Speaker 1 (13:23.438)
And this is what I think goes important in the conversation of sacrifices. What, and this is as a Christian, you need to think about what I'm going to be held accountable for. You know, that's the tension. It's like as a man, like what at the end of my life? Okay, yeah, did I provide for my family 100 %? Well, what about the other stuff? You know, was I there for my son in his hardest moments? Was I?

there leading my wife well and loving her and showing up for her? Do you think God's going to care more about that? What did I do with my closest friends and community? Did they know me? they know... Yeah, I don't know. There's just so many things I think that go down the list that are... As men, we kind of lean towards the profession side. Yeah. Like, this is where I'm to leave my mark. Yeah. And it's...

is good to a point anyway. To continue to use sports analogies like we've never we never do that. But it's on top of mind that's for sure. Well, Scottie Scheffler this summer said it at the Open Championship as they say across the pond. As we say the British over in Brits.

I think all we know. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:49.742)
Cause we have an open too. Right, the real one.

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:55.234)
came about.

50 years after but anyway. But yeah, he said it in the press conference. goes like, you know, like, I like he's like, I love the grind the process. I love winning all tournaments, but it's not what motivates me. It's like my son.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

And then, of course, I mean, I'm going here because I think this is just fascinating. I I've been wanting to talk about this because it jacks me up, this stuff. And then Tom Brady chimes in on it's like, hey, it's not it's not either or it's both. You know, when there's time to pursue your career and be great at what you do, you know, and then there's time to be with the family. And it's like and of course, everybody chimes in. like, aren't you divorced?

You know, that seems harsh to say, but it's You know.

Speaker 1 (15:42.414)
You know, and you're like, but there's, mean, it's like, think he's the guy to talk about this. It's like, cause at some point you will have to choose. He's right to a point. I think I can even comment on what he said. He's like, you are, he's a right to a point, but at some point you're going to have to choose. Well, my family or is it my career or is it greatness? That, like, you know,

Yeah, I love that.

Because it's, I was reading, I can't take credit for this, I was reading something else, but sacrifice, the idea of sacrifice, not the idea, the existence of sacrifice is a law, it's not just an idea. Sacrifice is something that we have to learn how to navigate. I don't know if that's right word. But sacrifice will be in your life, whether you know it or not. You're sacrificing something, whether you know it or not.

And I thought that was interesting because you always kind of view like I always viewed like sacrifices like, well that guy's having to do that because he's, you know, super busy or like, you know, this guy's having to do that or whatever, because, you know, sacrifice is kind of unique to them, but it's not, it's not sacrifices for everybody. And it's really good if you're in your twenties and thirties to at least understand that it's not just a, an idea, no, it's a law that it will

.

Speaker 1 (16:50.424)
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:02.904)
take place in my life. So just acknowledge the existence of it.

and you do it every day. I mean, I think, and I'll say it in a good way, like spend, let's say in the context as a Christian man, we are called to, you know, think in the context of relationship, like I meant to spend time with God, whether that's prayer and the scriptures before him. Well, I sacrifice time to scroll social media, sports center.

I want watch SportsCenter and drink all this. I don't want to my Bible in the morning. When I wake up, not like, I can't wait to do this. I have to choose to sacrifice SportsCenter for that last 30 minutes I get before my son wakes up. Yeah, that's a great point.

podcast, whatever.

Speaker 1 (17:39.958)
Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 1 (17:51.416)
That's a daily sacrifice. And it's just like putting the phone down, putting something like, there's always those things. I've kind of mentioned the big ones like profession or family, right? That's a big one we kind of in our culture talk about. And I think it's just been very evident through that stuff. And one we could get to, is like, think one sacra... Another big one would be like the sacrifice of ego. I'm not even talking about like...

straight up narcissism or arrogance but just like your own personal ego of I am this, I'm my own, this is my identity and this is who I'm gonna be and putting that down for some level of humility. That humility is a level of sacrifice, that ability to reflect and going hey, maybe that's not who I am and I need to redefine what that looks like.

Yeah, so practical example of that would be at work. you know, we'll say this repeatedly because it's true. You're in your 20s and 30s like we are and something good happens that you did.

Let's just pretend you are. I look like it. You do look like it. Maybe something good happens at work that you were responsible for and somebody else gets the credit for it. Right? Like, are you able to sacrifice your ego? Because nothing ever good comes from, well, no, that actually was me. Then you just look like crap. Right. You know, are you able to sit back and actually allow that to happen? Can you sacrifice your ego in a moment like that where it's like, was me.

Right. You know? man. That's a yeah. Because I, a good friend of mine, like he talks about that humbling experience. Every man needs that. Because what we end up finding was where one is our worth really, who we really are. like, it's like, because we just hold on tightly to things so much. You know, this is what's going to make me successful. This is going to make me right. Good. The atonement thing. Yeah. Atonement. Like this is my atonement.

Speaker 1 (20:00.792)
that I'm going to build this, do this, act like this, present this image. And it's like there needs to be that humbling moment or multiple. I I would say even in my case, know, many failures, disappointments, where you look back and it's like, yeah, I would have that my path would have been completely different if I didn't, you know, and what did it ends up being? think sacrifice. It makes you realize you're more human than you really are. Yeah.

I'm not some idea or some, you know.

I mean, to put it honestly, deity that I've created in my mind. hate to put it that way, but that's what it is, right? We end up worshiping that crap if our ego gets too big. And we need that bubble popped. Yeah. You know? And I think that's when we truly choose, that's where, when you have the homing moment and then you choose sacrifice and then you're like, I will. Okay. I'm done.

trying to be that guy or pursuing that thing. I'm going to put that down. Maybe not wholly or completely. For some of us, we need that, you know, that ego check to the point where completely disassociate. mean, like a friend of mine, he told me that it's like, you need to go rehab. got to go detox because this thing has been feeding that ego, this bottle has, and I need to probably put that down completely.

And I don't know if this is good theology. It may not be, but, um, you hear people say like, I kept fighting. kept fighting to be able to continue to build this business or do this thing or become the person I wanted to be. And, um, the theology part I'm talking about, it's like, people are like, well, God just finally just took it from me. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure, you know, I don't know, but I, again, I don't know if that checks out like, you know what I mean? But, but that certainly is like, maybe it is like maybe

Speaker 1 (21:36.866)
You

Speaker 2 (22:00.898)
He's like, okay, well, let me take it from you for a second. So that you can actually sit back and see all the things you've been sacrificing, including a relationship with me. And let's kind of talk about this, this tech of breather and anyway, kind of an interesting thought.

Yeah, And I mean, that's what I think if there's anything I would love for every guy right now is just sit down and think, like, what am I sacrificing in the name of what? You know, you just kind of how do I evaluate my life in a way of what's kind of constantly feeding that lack of sacrifice? I don't want to say lack of because like I said, we're always giving up something for something else. Right.

And that you know and maybe and that's where I mean this could be a rabbit trail bow cuz I'm like

Thank

Because I've hit, kind of hit this beginning, but there's all, we can always justify the giving up of something else, right? And going back to what we talked about last week, I mean, for me, sometimes it is the presentation of being a certain person. It was, it was that. I can't say no to that person because of what will they think of me? Can't say no to go into that event or that or this because... Deal. Yeah, get a deal or...

Speaker 2 (23:22.274)
I'm gonna meet somebody and get a deep.

Or I'll disappoint that person I look up to and they may not like me or help me out or blah blah blah. You know, we could just go down that rabbit trail and then you're like, you know, for me it's like it's been,

It's like starting to say no to that stuff has actually been really healing because I realized, I have more energy. I actually don't feel as drained. now it's like over Christmas time, my wife is 33 weeks pregnant. Saying no to a Christmas event with family, was like, ooh, that's kind of.

sting.

That's a little bit, that's kind of hard, but my mom gave me an out and my wife is like physically exhausted because she's carrying her on that extra weight. And it's, it's not easy. Right. And so like saying no for her. It's like, no, this is a good thing. This is good thing. I'm not saying it's like, like the whole, like your, your nose, your little nose to point to your bigger. Yes.

Speaker 1 (24:34.414)
the end of the day. So that's when the context of sacrifice, giving up something is like, man, like something small like that is like saying, okay, hey, she feels rested. She feels seen. she like, you know, I didn't drag her to something just because I felt like I was supposed to do it. To, you know, it's like, you know, in hindsight, didn't miss much, you know? Yeah. It's like, we'll make up for that on something in another way with family or whatever. So anyway, I don't know.

No, it's really good. I like that a lot. And it's something that a lot of young parents like us have to learn how to do. Because when you have a kid, mean, it's like, like we only have one, I guess you still do too. But just in the 10 months that Eli's been here, you do learn like, actually, that'd be better if we didn't do that thing. You know, and gosh, I really want to go, but

Yeah, yeah.

No, let's keep the peace. Let's make that sacrifice. Anyway, some various kind of minor examples of this idea of sacrifice, I did, we can kind of start putting a bow on it a little bit here, but I'm looking for a quote that I found that basically kind of ties it all up, at least for me. It is basically, here it is. So, and I want to get your thoughts on this too. Okay. But,

the man, so this kind of good going into the new year too. Cause we're trying to shed things and you know, clean things and get things out of our lives, which by the way, I'm going to lose a lot of weight this year. You just wait, man. It's going to happen. It's going to happen.

Speaker 1 (26:16.3)
Ha ha ha ha!

I would be so skinny, man. You just wait, But not today. I'll do it next week. Right, right. You got cramps. Yeah, right. The man you want to become is on the other side of something you're currently unwilling to give up or to sacrifice. So if you said, hey, this is the guy I want to be, this is the guy I want to be like, well, there's going to be things in your way that you have to sacrifice in order to get there.

fighting way.

Speaker 2 (26:46.574)
That's not just like an example of something as men. That's not just like, oh, here's kind of an idea of what it could be. No, that is true every single time, right? I want to be X. I need to sacrifice Y and Z in order to get there. And that's true for the kind of father you want to be, right? That's true for the kind of guy you want to be at work, the kind of friend you want to be if you want to lose weight. This could be a lot you have to sacrifice there, right?

And so for good and bad sacrifice, again, it's not just kind of this foreign concept that you can kind of explore. No, it's something that we'll experience every single day and learning how to kind of decipher, this is good and bad sacrifice and that both can be existed in my life. I thought that was really interesting. There something I've never thought about before.

Yeah, to comment on it, though, like it makes me think of something I talk about is like the alignment of your purpose and priorities. And it's like, man, there's a great purpose. I think we're all called to this earth. But if there's not alignment with like my priorities and like being a good dad or being a good husband, that kind of stuff, like they can come in conflict. yeah. And it's like learning how do those blend. therefore the sacrifice. Yeah. Say the quote again one more time.

quote is, the man you want to become is on the other side of something you're currently unwilling to give up. So I'm this person today. I want to be that one day, but I'm unwilling to give up these things.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:21.134)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I imagine as you say that, people automatically go, crap.

Yeah, so now you're thinking I gotta give her that bowl of ice cream before bed. know, like that. I mean that's one small example. Of it's December 30th, though. It's not the first.

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (28:36.91)
I'll do that tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (28:44.43)
So we got.

UGH

But I think also, like yeah, so you think about it in a, mean the one we've kind of been hitting on, it's like, all right, I want, I want to be a, let's not even use the word good, great husband and father.

Okay, that's putting work down at five. That's not checking.

I I was getting in the way of that. Yeah. So being honest about identifying what the thing is and then being willing and disciplined enough to actually remove it.

Speaker 1 (29:14.254)
So here, yes, because this is so I mean this goes back to ego, I think sometimes even because sometimes it's like it's not even about the hours. Sometimes it's like I've worked my rear end off all week. I've put in the time I provided this for you. Hey, I get home. I'm gonna watch. I'm gonna watch the game. Yeah, I get to veg. I get to go do what I want. I could go play golf for five hours. Love playing golf. It's a good. It's a good hobby to have. But like, okay.

Now you gotta sacrifice that ego to go, okay, well, especially if you got young kids. Or you got a young wife. And it's like, no, I need to sacrifice those things, not maybe completely, but to a degree and actually take a temperature of the room and go, hey. Because I my wife is really, I would say, I'm thankful I married a wonderful woman where sometimes she's like, no, go hang out with your friends. You hang out with your friends a month. Go, uh.

I would for sure.

Speaker 1 (30:11.182)
Go on a mountain bike ride. Go play a round of golf. We need that stuff and being married to somebody who recognizes that, because you want vice versa, but at the end of the day, this whole ego, I am owed this, because I have done this. I don't need to change diapers. I don't need to get off my phone and go spend time with you and the kids. That is hard. think most of the time, men, naturally go sitting on the floor with my son and...

or reading him the same book the hundredth time. It's like this feels, I don't feel a lot of fruit from this. I don't feel a lot of momentum, but good gosh, oh my God. 100 % of the belief that it is, your son is like whether he remembers or not, his life has changed because you're showing up and doing it.

just simply your time. Yeah. I mean, that's such an easy... Like, I think it's so common for men to be like that, because you do hear stories about men that are like, you know, that can be really kind of degrading to their wives and even to their kids for that reason, because I've worked all day. We live in this home that I've built because I'm the one that makes the money. so you can totally see...

Yeah. Yeah. I'm impressed. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:29.612)
the validation, not the validation, but the justification behind that thinking. just knowing that it's not, I guess just in saying it out loud with somebody, you see how that's totally not right. And the value also, and just, I took your advice, Carl Wright gave me this advice a few weeks ago on, because my son, he loves playing.

We got him like a fake DJ table. It's got like the, you know what talking Cause he's kind learned how to stand up. And I mean, we've sat around that DJ table for hours and Cartwright told me that, just, just sit there. Cause the whole time I'm thinking like, what are we getting out of this? All right, let's try to learn how to man. You know what I mean? Let's, let's, let's maximize this time we've got here. You know what I mean? And it's like, no dude, just sit there.

just sit there and watch him and make eye contact with him and let him know that, or just so he knows you're there and interested in him and what he's doing.

You're okay with his presence. You're not okay. You're not going to be okay. Like his emotion, like this is where we get to even when he gets, especially when he gets older is, dad's not okay unless I'm improving, growing, doing something. Like, yes, a hundred percent like a dad would love to see that. the same time, we want, if deep down in our soul, we know that God loves us unconditionally, how do we then convey, reflect that towards our son?

So anyway, sorry I didn't even cut you off.

Speaker 2 (33:07.03)
No, that's perfect. Yeah, I mean, that's that's totally it. And it's something that I had never realized before until I started doing it when you challenged me to do it. it there's just a piece and a joint about it. And I wouldn't rather be doing anything else. Well, no, I'll take that back in the time. I probably would because it's like, man, that football game's on right now. But learning how to sacrifice that as small as it may seem and sit there, dude, for 30 minutes and put your phone up.

And just the fruit you get from that and being present with your family and with your kid. And, I screw up a lot with that. I'm not perfect. No. Which is why you need a coach everybody.

Well, I would say, you know, I think Dr. Daniel Amen is awesome. He always says 20 minutes is what you really is the ideal. 20 minutes, no distractions. You're just present. And he says no commands, no instruction and no something anyway. But there is something and I think this is what interesting that I think about, which is like, I think every young man

Come on guys, you got 20 minutes.

Speaker 1 (34:16.184)
young boy coming a man needs. And I think if we could just teach men to sacrifice right now and understand is even at the age of our sons who are both under two, is like, if you really want to be a catalyst in your son's life, you have to be a safe place to fail. And if I only get my dad's attention when I'm succeeding,

or he will only engage when we're actually doing something towards my improvement, then that's not a safe place to fail. You know, like if his emotions are up or down, whether I'm doing something right, that's not a safe place. Yeah. It's like, oh, my dad lets me play around with something and try to figure it out. And he's not going to jump in and push me out of the way or correct me or talk down to me if I'm not doing it right. He's like, no, I'm just there. He's just there. He's just he's there to help.

interesting.

Speaker 2 (34:57.442)
does fail, where does he go?

Speaker 1 (35:11.886)
I mean, that's why I a lot of times with my son, if he's trying to figure something out, can tell him getting frustrated. go, do you want that dad to help? Dad to help? I'm not like, I have the tendency, like I'm on guilt. I want to go in there and do it. Yeah. But he's not gonna learn. Yeah. And that is something at right now where he's 21 months until he's 21, 25 years. Like that's going to be there. He's going to need somebody who's like.

who's not there to fix it, who's safe place for him to learn, fail, figure out, that teaches him problem-solving skills, but it's there to come alongside versus pushes him out of the way.

And so to bring us full circle, if you're not making the sacrifices to put yourself in a position to do that, because I let us down a rabbit hole, then you won't even have an opportunity to do those type things with your kids. know, they'll learn. That's a scary thought.

Yeah, that was great.

Speaker 1 (36:05.926)
They'll learn that from somebody else. Or they won't learn it at They'll learn that their performance is what gets my dad's attention, aka that's where my identity is wrapped up in. I mean going back to the whole like...

process versus outcomes thing, right? Yeah. It's like, want people that their identity is not built upon the result. Yeah. That their identity is in love with just the doing, the process, right? Yeah. That's a whole other thing.

Well, yeah. And that's just, that's a common theme for a lot of what we'll talk about on this because it's funny how we, it's a lot of times when we discuss different topics, it always comes back to tension. Right? What's true. Maybe both these things are true. How do I find out how to do both or neither? Right. But that's a common theme that we always talk about that you and I've talked about for years. When you felt me is, okay, if we're talking about sacrifice, well, how do I know if it's good or bad or how do

what these both seem good, but they both require my time or, you know, stuff like that. That's always like that.

That's a great way. It's like there's bad good and then there's good and maybe not as good. And sometimes at the end of the day, we could look at it as like, right, if I do this, am I sacrificing for something else that is actually more, that's better. That's good. That's greater than this good. And that's where you got to kind of re-evaluate in life. And that's where you need core values.

Speaker 1 (37:37.294)
priorities, purpose in your life so that you can start weighing that out better. I mean that's where we always say having a biblical foundation is good. That's why we always say having stuff written down is really good. Oh yeah. And reflecting on these things because then you can start really being more bold and acting.

Well, I kind of want to, so I wanted to get your thoughts on like a few more things and then I wanted to ask a few questions, kind of rhetorical open-ended questions, just for whoever's listening can just kind of chew on it. We can rapid fire it. But I did, I love how you just said biblical because how do you not think of sacrifice and not think of our Messiah, Jesus? That's kind of like the most glaring obvious thing, but even in

So.

Speaker 2 (38:20.886)
When you were just talking about the biblical stuff too, it made me think about, what about Peter and James and John? they're out there fishing and Jesus says, follow me and they leave and sacrifice everything. That's kind of a cool concept. mean, obviously the big one sacrifice, God sacrifices his son for our sins. obviously that's, thank the Lord for that.

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:45.952)
some of the disciples and the everyday decisions they made even back then in following Jesus, I mean, they gave up everything. And then there isn't even an example of the rich guy who wouldn't give it up and left miserable.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:56.014)
Yeah. Right? And which is, think, going back to the whole like good versus better thing, because I think some people interpret that black and white of like, well, therefore, Christians shouldn't have any money. it's like, well, that's not really true because there's there's definitely verses on stewardship. And Jesus is really asking, are you going back to your quote, your quote of like, what are you unwilling to give up to become the man that you really deep down know you should be?

Or you want to be. Yeah, but mean disciples, yeah, what's interesting is, you know, I think this is what translates for over 2000 years, is they had probably, a lot of them had family businesses. Yeah. You know, they had, speaking of what, alright, success is doing what's been modeled for me for the last, you know, 100 years or 50 years, whatever. Right, let me just keep repeating that, and that's what's, and then I'll have wife, kids, right, you know.

keep the Shabbat, know, all the Jewish traditions, do what my dad did. And Jesus basically like, nope. You know, what's interesting, and I think the Chosen does a great job of this, and they really add commentary to the addition of this, that Peter was the only one that was married, and that there was sacrifice from him and his wife for that.

Like they even kind of added in there, which is some people don't like, but add in that she had a miscarriage while he was... which I don't think it's in the Bible, but it has an interesting concept to think about what they had to give up, which I like about the show, that personal. So... Yeah.

just adds another layer to it. Even if it wasn't a miscarriage or something else. mean, they're all dealing with something

Speaker 1 (40:42.518)
Yeah. Stuff like that. You know, we've been talking a lot about marriage and fatherhood, Beau, but there's a disc, like even for the single guys out there, like all those guys are single, like they basically sacrifice this whole idea of getting married, settling down, having kids. I mean, even having sex, right? Yeah. Like that's a sacrifice for a lot of guys. Yeah. Right. But it is. Right. I mean, when you choose to be a Christian, are set and single.

Yeah

Speaker 1 (41:12.664)
you're choosing to put that down. You know, that's, that's a sacrifice. Yeah. So, yeah, seriously. And what that looks like. Yeah. speaking of failure. Yeah. right. But yeah, I mean, that's another thought. I mean, I, you know, we could go down. I mean, I could share all sorts of stories. Like I said, I was single till I didn't meet my wife until I was like a week before I turned 36. So yeah, I mean, the, the sacrifices in a single guy.

Because you do have more time to work and you think about like, well, there's other parts to my life though that I need to develop even though they're not strong right now. Yeah. I mean, you know, there's the holistic, there's, you know, I still need to develop community. I still need to develop those, that emotional telling it so I can be a good husband and father. And how do I do that? Well, I got to be in relationship with other people. You got to show up in other areas. You know, so anyway, that's a

I we've kind of I think we've hit it, Beau. Yeah, I don't know if there's another questions you want to keep.

Well, yeah, there's a few. So these are ones that I kind of had prepared for us. But I'll just kind of say out loud so that people can chew on it maybe as we're Or yeah, yeah, or you. Yeah, we're trying to answer it. We can think of an example or whatever. But there's eight what's called killer questions around sacrifice that I got from a really, really deeply sourced thing. Chat GPT. That kind of. Yeah, OK.

My answer to 20 seconds.

Speaker 2 (42:47.118)
that really I thought would be good and kind of putting a kind of a bow around what we talked about and we can try to answer them or we can not answer them and have people just think about it, right? But the first one is what are you sacrificing that you didn't mean to?

And then an add on question that I would get is if you don't ask yourself that question, would you ever identify that thing? You know, if you're ever in an environment where you have somebody like you that can help you kind of soundboard things or you're involved in like a small group or community where you're actually actively talking about it, because this is not something that you're going to think about going down the road. Wait, what am I sacrificing?

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:30.338)
Yeah.

You know what mean? What do I need to sacrifice right now? Hold on, am I sacrificing my family right now? I didn't even realize it, but I'm glad I came up with it myself. That doesn't happen. Right. Right? It takes somebody in your life.

That's where I would think if you hear that question, you feel some tension in you or you have a think back to an actual real conversation and feedback from somebody you know, I 100 % would say that.

You gotta have it. You gotta have it. If you're in your 20s and 30s and you're a Christian man, you've got to have somebody that you can wrestle with or can watch you wrestle. Could be the coach on the outside of the ring and help you, you know? Yeah, that's really good. The second one is what are you protecting that's actually holding you back? So what are you not willing to sacrifice? Like we said before, that's keeping you from becoming the person you'd like to be or the father, husband you'd like to be.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:23.022)
And not to be contradictory to everything we just talked about, but I would say even think about this conversation with maybe you are, you could be using your family as a shield to actually go really pursue and your wife's actually encouraging you to go start something or do something and you're using like, I don't want to, you know, that's where you have to really start knowing yourself and understanding you and in your relationship with God, in your relationship with your wife and your family, really ask these hard questions because it could be vice versa.

100%. I would say nine times out of 10, it's what we've been talking about. But there could be a guy out there, the 10 % where...

Well, but how do you know that how are you able to even decipher that? And I think I'm so strong on this because of how much you've helped me. Like, how do you? How do you figure that out on your own?

Well, you just said it. One, you got to good wise counsel, a wealth of counselors. Shoot, I lost the proverb. But yeah, mean, you just got to have people in your life. But two, especially in your 20s and 30s, this is why we're getting guys to wrestle with us now because you're really in that wrestling. You're figuring out who you are, figuring out how God made you. that, like maybe I do have a natural bent to just be at home and clock out early and

That kind of stuff. you're like, and I'm avoiding it. You know, so that's where. Yeah, I would say most guys that we know and even ourselves, Beau, we. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it's the other way, but there could be some out there. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:46.478)
Yeah, that's a point. I never thought about that. It could be the opposite side of the spectrum.

Speaker 2 (46:02.968)
Yeah, for sure. Well, that's a good segue. Here's the next one. Where do men confuse sacrifice with self destruction?

Speaker 2 (46:13.432)
So the idea of versus, so healthy sacrifice versus self-destruction.

Well, I think, yeah, going back to what I said about the alignment of your purpose and priorities, I mean, the John Elwes of the world, like, is he going to get to the end of his life and look back like, I thought this, I gave up so much become a Super Bowl winning quarterback, which at the end of the day is like, it's a good thing. I wouldn't say that's a bad thing. Especially in the context of football, like you didn't, he

Accomplishing your goals is good.

Accomplishing a goal with people in a collaborative environment is probably such a healthy good thing but I imagine if he looks back at the back of it at the end of his life like Could there have been a couple days a week where I prioritize my marriage more Could there have been a couple days a week where I decided to go spend time with my kids instead of watching film until midnight You know like I just you know that kind of that kind of stuff where you can kind of go I Could have done that differently. Yeah

I could have still pursued the thing that I wanted but had my other priorities with it that were probably at the end of the day I look back and are now more important. That's why I thought that example was really good. Because Elway wasn't a drugs guy, wasn't staying, mean, stuff we're hearing about like other people, like he wasn't going out late and hanging out with girls while being a married guy. He was just grinding. He was a good like...

Speaker 1 (47:45.934)
By most account, at of what they tell, that they said in the documentary, he was a good guy. Yeah. But he just, you he chose football generally over his family. Gosh, yeah. Man, anyway.

And it doesn't have be football. It could be anything. Speaking of that, next question. What has God asked you to lay down or to sacrifice?

Yeah, could be sometimes.

Speaker 1 (48:09.486)
You guys can personally go to the audience here.

Yeah, asking everybody. I do feel maybe you don't have the answer, but just asking him that question. God, what are you wanting me to lay down this year? That maybe it's become a bit of an idol to me or it's taking up time that I can be spending with family, with kids, right? I wonder what that thing is. But I bet everybody wants to ask that question. I bet they're like, yeah, I know what it is.

Yeah. I can say this as something as someone I've talked with you a lot about, it's God's still working with me is my effort. Is I can make it happen. yeah. Sacrificing what I can do versus what he can do and putting in, do I actually trust him to being about a better result than I can myself? would, that's right off the of my head. is something, especially this month. mean, most people don't know that I,

I live off fully funded through donations, working through this nonprofit and what I do. It was especially the end of the year where people make promises and it doesn't come through. I feel like I prepared the horse for battle and the victory is the Lord. I did the things that I felt like God called me to and in the day, is He going to bring about the fruit? Or do I need to feel like I have to make it happen?

is like we've talked about before, the fruit of it is anxiety. The fruit is stress and frustration. And you're like, no, at end of the day, say I'm a follower of his and I trust him more than I trust myself. So anyway, so would say I'm in my still, that is a constant battle, a sacrifice of my own effort. Anyway. wouldn't have about You thought about me?

Speaker 2 (50:05.998)
What are you saying? Yeah, I don't think I would have thought about that for you.

Yeah, still, I mean it's

So what we're learning is as wise as you are, you don't have life all figured out.

I'm gonna freak out. If I did, boom.

I'd be pretty poignant. All right, here's the last one. What do you think is the hardest sacrifice for men in our age group? 20s and 30s. Right now, I think we've probably touched on a lot of it. But what do you think that thing is and how do you identify it?

Speaker 1 (50:32.13)
them. Yeah. Right.

Speaker 1 (50:39.31)
Well, I mean, I would say the obvious thing, especially from, I would say 20s and every day I'm very thankful that I didn't get married at 24, 25 because I would have blown it. would, but I would say those guys in your 20s, like when you say I do and you say I want to be a husband and father fully, what is the weight of that? Yeah, interesting. That, that is a sacrifice.

And it's so normal here. Like everyone gets married. You know, I mean, it's just kind of the thing that you do. I think a lot of times it can be breezed over. Like you're saying like, you just get married. What does it mean to be married? You know what I mean? Like, what does that mean? So you're going to sacrifice a lot here. You're sacrificing. Yeah. Really? I mean, your own, not well-being that's dramatic, but like your own like

selfish desires in a lot of ways. You know what mean? Because you're dealing, not dealing, sounded negative. You're dealing with this lady. No, that's not what I meant. You're, you know.

You're having to deal with that now. That's not what I mean. Anyway, you know what I mean.

Yeah, yeah. 100%. Yeah, because in our culture, like, yeah, it's, I mean, we both went to a college where they called something an MRS degree, right? Yeah. Like this is what you, you know, it's so embedded in our culture, this is normal. Some people just go through the motions and do it, but really, and I don't think anybody, when they truly go into it, fully know the weight of what that means, but 100%. Yeah. Like in your 20s and 30s, if you're getting married or early in marriage, like, what does it truly mean?

Speaker 1 (52:17.102)
If this is what I chose, and when you chose to be a husband and father, outside your relationship with God, that's got to be number one. I mean, I think that's what God's going to hold us accountable for. How did you love your kids? How did you raise them? How did you love your wife amidst of the chaos of life and choose to love her? They'll know that I love you by the way you love one another. I'm to butcher that one. But yeah, you know what I mean? These are the marks of a disciple. Yeah, for sure.

How did you love one another? These are things that like, yeah, so I don't know. I would say that's the obvious one. Even single guys, thinking about that question. What does it really mean? If this is something I want for my life, what does that really mean? Yeah. And what will I have to deal with? And other questions that will basically come from that question. You know? Yeah. You know? Sorry. No video games. Still not anymore.

Yeah, come on, man. What's the deal with that, by the way? It's real thing, bro. It's everywhere. Look, I have things I struggle with, too, for sure. I'm not the perfect person. I need tons of help. But the video game thing, man, just put it up. I may lose some listeners for that. Yeah.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:31.138)
Right? Yeah. It's another addiction. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. It's another.

all right. Anyway, is that a good bow on that? Yeah. I'm to give you a shameless plug. So I'm here, because, I probably what about 10 years ago was in a weird spot in my life.

Yeah, but it was a bit south 10 years.

Good gosh, man. Yeah, into 2020. Carl, I didn't know I was going to do this, but I'm going do it anyway. This type of stuff that we wrestle with and that we talk a lot on this podcast is you're going to see, you'll get some value, hopefully, out of just hearing us have a conversation about it. But I do know, and it's kind of a touchy thing, especially for guys, a lot of my friends, a lot of guys I know that don't really want, or don't really think they need the help and they don't want to talk about deep issues and stuff like that.

towards the end of 2021.

Speaker 2 (54:27.682)
Let me just say as believers, as guys that are following Jesus, trying to follow Jesus, trying to do the best we can, and you've got to get somebody in your life that you can talk to about some of these issues, because I promise you, you're not special and you're not going to not deal with these things. so anyway, shameless plug, Cartwright's an amazing resource. The Center for Executive Leadership is an amazing resource. Get involved in something with guys that are going through similar things.

and start learning about it. And even when you do mess up, you don't come here to get fixed. You come here to wrestle with it with others so that you know you're not on your own and stuff like that. just look, I know we don't like getting deep and stuff like that as men, but just take some time, reach out to somebody. I would recommend Cartwright. Get in front of somebody and just kind of brain dump with them and have somebody that does this professionally like Cartwright help you dissect what's true, what's not true.

what's okay, hey, actually that thing is not okay, here's where it is in scripture, here's how I can help you. So, anyway, get involved, please get involved, Cartwright's an amazing resource, so please do that.

Maybe blush. you, Beau. You're welcome. All right. That was good, little Beau. I appreciate that.

Well, I won't do that every time because I don't want to be like a sales pitch, but.