Your Humbling Moments Will Shape You...If You Let Them | Episode 150

This episode dives into the critical role that life's reflection moments—often painful or humbling—play in shaping who we are. By understanding and embracing these inflection points, men can grow into better versions of themselves, both personally and spiritually. We explore the subtle but powerful lessons these moments offer and how to respond intentionally when faced with them.

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In this episode:

• The concept of forging moments and their importance in personal growth
• How men typically react to painful reflections and the third, healthier option
• Recognizing life's mirror moments, especially from loved ones
• The significance of receiving feedback eighty percent correctly and the dangers of distraction
• Specific stories from leadership and relationships that highlight humility’s role
• Practical ways to stay present and gather lessons when feeling embarrassed or challenged
• The hero's journey and the importance of failing forward in life
• How vulnerability and humility increase respect and influence
• Balancing growth, humility, and high standards in leadership
• Avoiding the trap of narcissism and constant blame in modern men

Timestamps:

• 00:00 – The importance of inflection points in a man's life
• 02:22 – How adversity molds character and the peace in trusting that process
• 03:54 – Responding to humility moments: blame, deflect, or learn
• 07:03 – Recognizing the impact of loved ones' feedback
• 10:08 – Building human connection beyond performance
• 14:54 – Real-life leadership lessons from humility and connection
• 20:21 – The importance of self-reflection in growth and leadership
• 25:20 – Developing people with both performance and character
• 32:23 – Recognizing and managing fight/flight responses during feedback
• 37:47 – Humility in everyday life: a story from Dax Shepard
• 44:21 – humility’s role in leadership and legacy

Resources & Links:

• The Hero’s Journey by Joseph Campbell
• Stephen Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Effective People
• Dax Shepard’s Podcast
• Dax's Story at a Nashville Restaurant 

Connect with Cartwright:

• LinkedIn
• Twitter

Transcript

Well, I'll set it up even maybe this way. Something that keeps coming up that I've referenced, but I think is maybe having just all episode talking about is just like the inflection points, the reflecting moments that all of us have. And they generally, in some ways you can call them the forging moments, right? But,

these moments that all of us men we have in our life, are we willing to let them change us, transform us? And what ends up happening, most men, is we have these moments, they hit us right in the face where a mirror's held up, and we have to really look at ourself and who we are and who we've become and why we are the way we are. And we could either...

feel a high level of shame, disappointment, guilt, wallow, lead to depression, anxiety, insulate more, or you can get really mad about it and then start deflecting like crazy and blaming everyone else except you about the problem. And I think something we'll talk about in the tension of life, right? There's always a third option. And I think that's what I really loved when I started this

podcast and sort of interviewing people is like, loved those inflection points, those humbling moments, those reflection moments in people's life where they really, it changed them, it forged them into who they are and they allow those moments to change their life. And so today I kind of wanted to just have an episode just about that. Like, what does that mean? What does that look like? You know, they can happen periodic periodically throughout our life, throughout our day even, but

Cartwright Morris (02:07.252)
there are probably some big ones throughout, you know, can really think about it. It's like, what did I do with that moment? Did I?

just wallow and withdraw or did I deflect and blame or did I actually allow it to change me? Because at the end of that's God using your life, using those moments to go, hey, I'm molding you into something better. I'm molding you into my son. anyway. Yeah, it's like we've said before, the, like, don't know how

Like this is not an episode to say this is how God works. But no, not at all. I do like there's definitely there's kind of peace in knowing that, you know.

Hey, you're going through this like weird time right now, which by the way I am. Yeah. Yeah. And we were just talking about this was something I'm going through. Like, Hey, maybe he's not as interested in the outcome here. Maybe he's interested in building my character. Right. Hey, how about that? And then, when you kind of hear somebody else say that to you, like you have before, it's pretty humbling. And then there's also some piece you feel with it. Cause it's like, okay, not everything is tied to this thing. I want

to happen happening. Right. You know? but yeah, I do think that's true. Like you think about all the small times that like you've had to like have your pride poked a little bit. Like you go to a meeting and you're like, I'm probably going to be the one that knows the most about this subject today. And then you quickly realize that there's somebody there that's a lot smarter than you are. And, and you do something embarrassing to where everyone else realizes that same thing at the same time.

Cartwright Morris (03:56.524)
How do you respond? And I think a lot of guys, they either like turn up the heat where they get even more angry, like you were saying, or you can be quickly humbled and try to learn a lesson from it in a way. Yeah. And that's what's weird. We could always think to those moments. It's like,

Usually it's circumstances or people that allow these things to happen. has to put... Something is in your life is putting up a mirror, whether you're realizing it not. But there's something in your life and you're being... It's usually your wife.

Wife is a big one. Wife is a big one. 100%. You know? Yeah, absolutely. Actually, it's funny you mentioned that I was like listening to an old podcast I did, an interview, and the guy was like one of the big takeaways was like, man, listen to your wife more. She'll tell you how much you're... That's You know? Which is kind of part of even my story is thinking, you know, you think about it, it's like...

If you really think about these moments, and I think about one of my big ones, it doesn't have to be 100 of 100 % true if someone's specifically giving you feedback. But the 80 % that they've nailed you, right?

You have to receive that. But most people what happens is you have a confronting moment, an inflection point in your life where they're really trying to, you could tell there's a, the heart behind it is to help you, to serve you, to see you become better.

Cartwright Morris (05:29.678)
we take the 10 or 20 % that they were wrong or they didn't quite get right. And we focused on that and we go, Ooh, now I got you. Now I'm going to fight. You could be like me and like, I don't really like that person that much. know, completely blow past the truth or whatever feedback they're trying to give you and just be like, I'm going to ignore that. And I'm going to choose.

you. You know, I'm gonna avoid you for now on. Right. Well. When those people are probably the most valuable people in our lives. Well, people we don't like, they, they, they give us, well, one, yeah, but two, they, we generally will have pretty reflective moments from them, from them.

unintentionally. I feel like where they'll push a button, well, their behavior will continually be a real thing and it'd be like, is it them or is it me? And that's where you really think about it. So, I don't know. And then it gets complicated because it could be, in some places, it could be both, maybe? so some...

Sometimes you could be right, partially right, and they could be partially right. And finding that compromise or like ability to like figure out, okay, what's the real truth here? We're really in my wrong. You know what mean? Like you're probably overreacting in this, like whoever this person is, like maybe they didn't say it the right way, which is probably not right, the right thing to do, but.

there is something in what they're saying that's true that I could work on in me. You know what mean? So like, can you get past the, the kind of, theater of however it's communicated to you and actually get to the, to the truth nugget in there? Yeah. Cause I mean the people that we don't interact with regularly or in our lives, we can easily hand dismiss, right?

Cartwright Morris (07:23.928)
but it's the people that love us and around us all the time that really that's the ones that hurt the most. So maybe we, so either one we can really dismiss, but I mean, I'll give my kind of one up. One of the, big ones was I was 29 years old. I was working for, 20 years ago. Hey, get out of here. It wasn't, I mean, it wasn't over a decade, so yeah, which is wild to think about, but I was interning for a nonprofit.

and had two women I was working with who were older. They had been married. They had definitely lived a lot of life and been in business and had definitely some rough things happen to them at the probably the hands of their former husbands or men in their life. So it was easy for me to dismiss, but they kind of after working with them for a few months, they pulled me aside.

And generally the feedback was, I could kind of sum up in like, you don't.

You know, you see a, you are passing us by. are of like completely rushing through every bit of our relationship, whether it's, especially like the working part and the extra stuff. Were y'all like planning something? So we would have weekly meetings, the three of us about planning for that week or the things to come. y'all would do like events and stuff like that? Yeah, yeah. And so she, yeah, they were, so anytime, I really would, I would like, you know, because what ends up happening

is they want to connect. This is where you, as a man, and I think it was a great lesson as a leader, is they've started monologuing a little bit and kinda coming after me and making assumptions. And that's what I mean by the 20%. There was things that I was like, ooh, I could refute you right there and get really upset about that.

Cartwright Morris (09:28.28)
But there was certainly one that said that it was Wednesday. Well, I think they were kind of like, yeah, they were making assumptions about my character of why I was doing it versus actually just confronting my behavior. Right. But I felt I really did feel like the Holy Spirit. I wanted to speak up and, know, that feeling of defending yourself. But it was like the Holy Spirit kind of like pressing almost like.

kind of put his finger on my chest a little bit, closed my mouth. Like, Hey, just receive what the whole they have to say. Maybe not every little thing. Cause that's what ends up happening. get, you know, we want to refute every little thing, but the spirit of what they're wanting, they wanting me to engage. They were wanting me to be present. And I was using them as the footstool to the next thing. I was trying to rush through this because there was something more important, something I'd rather do. And I wasn't appreciating really what

was we were trying to do and build. And I felt like they were in the way. And therefore I was treating them that way.

And also like we were together for over a year and it was like, this is probably a relationship I need to build beyond even just the work. So they wanted time at the beginning or the end to connect and talk and get to know each other. And to me, like that's a leadership trait. We're in the midst of always trying to push and build and move and we, we, what do we end up? We miss the people and therefore they're not loyal to us. They don't go to bat for us. They do the bare minimal because we're not willing to.

to connect with them as human beings. Now I'm not saying you have to have like a after work party at the end of every day, but there's something too of like those moments of like, when they want you, they're looking for someone to talk with or just engage with.

Cartwright Morris (11:22.914)
you know, allowing those times just to, to that human connection goes a long way. And so that, that was, that was a leadership lesson I learned at 29 from that standpoint, but also just a life lesson of like, Hey, be where your feet are. Stop. And it was something I literally was doing subconsciously. And it was probably something that I'd done my whole life of just like, if I didn't like the activity, I rushed through it and just tried to move on to the next. I wouldn't. People can feel that. Yeah.

feel that and it was a big inflection moment because it allowed me as like all right I am treating people like a burden I'm treating this opportunity I'm not allowed I'm not really fully engaging because also I'm afraid

I'm afraid if I fully give and it doesn't work out then I'm a failure. I already feel like a failure. But that's where it started really rooting out like, oh, there's a level of fear when I pull away that I'm constantly doing that in a lot of my relationships because it's scary because I'm not fully engaged. I realized I was like, them having that conversation just opened up this portal into my life of like, that's why some of my relationships haven't worked out. That's why I didn't fully dive in because I was a

of what could happen. So I didn't fully commit. I didn't fully engage. And that was a big inflection moment going forward where I have that question in my head with anything. like, am I disengaging because I don't want

I don't want to fully commit or maybe I'm just disengaging. you say disengaging, are you disengaging from the people or are disengaging from the actual job itself? or both? I think both. It was, was definitely both. It was a hundred percent like both. Like I was like fully.

Cartwright Morris (13:09.952)
Just yeah, I think both. was like, I, if I, know, you know, on the surface level, I could say out loud, I wanted to do a good job. I wanted to be, but then there's part of you that's like very surface level. It's like this, out, that's when I've talked about the outward living versus outside inside. Like I want to be perceived as a hard worker. So I'll just do the right enough, you know? And so anyway, it's just interesting. I was like, I think back to that moment.

you know, a lot. And you're like, man, that was, I think I needed that. But if I didn't allow myself to sit in it, to hear the full feedback and go, thank you for that input. Yeah, I'll work on it. You know, this is what I heard you say and I will, I'll work on it. But most of us aren't willing to sit there because it's like,

you just call me out and so I'm ready to go. Let's fight. And I'm sure most of their, and it was weird, was like, I had a body experience at the moment where most of these women were like, this is probably scary for them because I think every fight they've ever had with a male in their life has led to a knockdown, drag out, and I think even for one, it was a physical thing. So, you know? And...

So you just kind of like, right, how can I, you know, this is, that's, that's too, that's pretty arrogant to say, but there's a level of like, Hey, how can I, in the midst of them helping me and serving me allow unintentionally, but you know,

be a new standard of men in these women's life where I'm like, okay, I'm hearing what you're saying and I'm going to do different. I'm not going to just brush it off. They could have a different experience. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that's where you kind of have an out of body moment. these forging moments, forging moments, these key humbling moments, I think you got to really receive them. And I think that's what's been fun about this podcast. So I've got to hear other men's and it's like, it's changed my life. It's allowed me to engage more.

Cartwright Morris (15:14.08)
me to love more, it's allowed me to be a better man, serve people well. Some people it's like I've made more money because I was a better better person. People wanted to work for me more, go to bat for me. anyway. It's funny you say that I literally had, so my boss's name is Michael and he we were having a conversation yesterday because we're about to bring on some new team members and our company's growing and it's doing it's doing great and you we're

trying to find the, we've got the, the business is working now. It's just, um, because we're growing, you have to add more people. So you have to find the right people. And him and I had a little bit of a debate yesterday. Of course he won cause Michael's a Jedi master when it comes to our, you don't argue with Michael Mitchell, by the way, ever. It's a bad idea. Um, but,

we're basically talking about, when we bring people on, like we need to have a more like a uniform training process. It sounds so corporate, it kind of, mean, you have to like- Onboarding process. Yeah. I mean, you have to like really be intentional about, Hey, you're not where we want you to be yet, but in six months, this is how we get to where you're super valuable for the company.

And obviously you and I have talked about before, like we both have coaching football backgrounds. so in coaching football, it doesn't work like that. Yeah. You know, I mean, you don't, there is no training. If you're in a position, your job is to coach wide receivers, for example, if they don't perform well, you're out.

And so I kind of had this, I've always had that ingrained in my mind because that's really how I was brought up professionally in coaching football in my early twenties or whatever. And so anyway, it gets to the point. Michael and I were arguing a little bit because it was like, well, if they, if they don't reach where they want, where we want them to be in our company performance wise, well then the answer is just to get rid of them.

Cartwright Morris (17:22.158)
You know, of course that's where my mind went. It's like, well, if we're going to invest in someone to come do X, Y, and Z, then they've got to, hey man, get on board or get out. You know what I mean? And Michael very calmly, but firmly told me, was like, hey man, that's not how it works with people. And anyway, you know, this was literally 24 hours ago. I was like, yeah, it is.

I got job to do, man, let's do it. You know what I mean? If you can't do the jobs, them. But his point was, and it was literally so funny to say that, I was learning this yesterday, is that, no, don't just focus solely on the training. Get to know the person.

Learn about the person, which naturally like, you you and I typically do, but I think when we get like in a professional environment, we're trying to like reach goals and stuff like that. Some of that stuff can go to the wayside pretty quickly. Right. You know what I mean? And, it becomes solely about performance and, you know, hit your target or you gotta go, man, you know, but it's not necessarily that it's, he was challenging me to be more like, well, if they don't hit their targets, what is it about you?

you know, in the training program that you designed that didn't work. Yeah, that didn't train them well. And, um, and of course my mind and my ego was like, well, it's their fault. Cause your system was no way it could be flawed. And so anyway, yeah, I mean, it's, anyway, that might be a little bit of rabbit trail, but it's kind of the same thing. Like, um, seeing the people too, behind whatever.

issue they're having with you or issue you're having as a whole and trying to figure out how to connect with the person rather than just get to the performance. And some of the best business leaders that I know, they've really got this way of being able to do that. Like, course they fire people. they're good at firing people, you know, and good meaning like they know when to do it, but it's always,

Cartwright Morris (19:24.748)
It's always really vetted out before they do that. I think there's something really interesting you're saying because I think as a leader, you always got to start with you. That's what the leader, everybody wants to work for, be around, be led by is like, okay, they aren't performing well. So maybe it starts with me and how I train them. Right. Which I would say a majority of leaders think that way. They think their system is flawless. Right. But I think you have to, the oil dripped from the head, right.

Hey, what am I missing? That reflective moment, actually ask those questions, build that into your habits and behaviors. And then if you get to the, and they're still messing up and you've tweaked everything, it's like, okay, then yeah, you can then go, it's this person. They either don't have the ability to complete the task.

I've asked them to do something that they don't have the ability to do that's not them or there is a character flaw. And lot of that comes to the surface when know, stuff keeps happening, right? And I think you could probably evaluate, Beau, people that you've seen lose their job and you probably went, okay, yeah, maybe it should have happened three months earlier, but.

That's what ended up happening. You got it vetted out though. Yeah. There's a level of like personal, especially if it's something's unproven, right? Like you're just creating this onboarding process. Yeah. And you're like, okay, maybe I can tweak my, and then, and then the next step is, yeah, it's something there. They're, have the, they're incapable or unwilling to complete it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. No, I totally agree. And it's kind of,

It kind of hit on two points for me. One, the main one being, hey, don't be so black and white with this stuff. Yeah. Especially when it comes to people. Yeah. And I think like guys that are around our age that are probably getting into more like where they're managing people like me, like I'm learning in real time, by the way, I literally we're, growing.

Cartwright Morris (21:32.078)
some people that I'm gonna manage at Metplex. So like we're literally gonna be doing that. So there'll probably be some good episodes coming up. But so anyway, I don't know how to do that. I've never done it. I've done it with 20 year old college athletes that are much simpler than people in the professional world. But.

So anyway, yeah, it hit on that. then also, just that conversation I had yesterday, I mean, that was kind of humbling. was like, cause I thought, man, I, had it all documented out. This was how it's going to work. You know? Great. And if, and it was a big kind of slap in the face and a slap in my pride that was like, cause Michael was like, Hey, that's good. That's good. That's good to have that structure, but be a little bit more nuanced with it.

and focus on the person, which that was humbling for me. Because it was like, wait, I mean, I thought I had to figure it out, but I don't think I do. It's almost like maybe you have to do it to truly figure it out. You know, but I quickly figured out that it's like, yeah, I think his line was something like, yeah, I can tell you haven't done this before. Which to like to my ego was like, cool, you know what mean? Just like a punch in the gut and.

But I needed it. I definitely needed it. I didn't like it. But I needed it. It's really bad. You know? Because I think we all want to be at the same place, of like, OK, if let's say you mess up in a situation and maybe Mike did this in real time in front of you, it's like, yeah, I want someone to give me the benefit of the doubt and first go, OK, what could I have done differently?

Then go to okay. This is what they did. This is you know, you know I I would say from you know giving my going back to my example That's what I I I easily went to I would say my life up to that point was something like that happened How do I pass blame? Let me try to avoid squirm. I had a friend who calls a he's like cause it's squirming. How do I squirm out of the way or? How do I just completely internalize it let it affect my identity as my person and it's like no

Cartwright Morris (23:51.456)
but in that moment it was like I felt like God propping me up of like no this is my identity is set I'm good and who I am it's just I need to change my behavior my mindset going forward and like learning to adjust that and then

And then I could, by having that, then I can help somebody else. I could then go, okay, is this an identity thing where they aren't getting it or they don't have the capability to do it or...

You know, is there really just a behavior adjustment? Just saying that like I can count plenty times like where I was in my twenties trying to figure out like how to be in the professional world, like in having goals and targets and stuff you have to hit and man, guys were super like patient with me. Yeah. And like, had it been me being my own boss, I would have like see it. Yeah. You know? And so it's just like, that was a big moment for me.

Because it was like okay. No, there's a lot more nuance to this. Yeah, there's a lot more like there's a lot more to people and like these people have homes and spouses and mortgages and then and all these things and you know, they're probably not as

Obsessed with hitting this goal with this company that you are right you know to me and they just want to come in and do a good job and You want everybody to be like that, but? That's not realistic. Yeah, you know yeah, I mean the more more I realized like in Leadership is like am I asking somebody to be something that are not? I Think in the work context that meets more anything you know yeah, I can't you know am I asking of sales?

Cartwright Morris (25:40.45)
got someone am I putting somebody in sales who you know hates being around people and Do you know doesn't get energy from? You know being more Independent and actual it's like that wouldn't be a sales guy right right, but it's like yeah, it's similar like how do we

Develop, you know develop people in a way that you know one we're starting with us and then they communicate hey They go hey, but Bo is the type of leader who he would take ownership over what he's got Maybe I need to be that type of guy that type of employee or gal All right who goes? All right, something's not working. I need to start thinking about me think about what I could do better. Yeah It's like that is in itself leadership Right if you

But if you create a culture where you're passing blame, constantly calling new people out, but not taking any personal ownership, then that's what everybody else is to do. Which is, we've seen that plenty of times. Oh yeah, you see that all the time. And there's even a lot of successful people that are like that, that just, like we talked about in episodes before, that leave a lot of people in the wake of their success, that they burned. But to leave like a lasting impact and legacy, like, know, as Christian men we want to.

Or at least when you step back and or at least when you like when you're a Bible study, you know, that's what you say you want to do. But I think a lot of times, like when we get at work, you can you can put the work goggles on and the and the money goggles on and not have a lot of problem like casting people to the side. But it can't be like that as Christian men like we you know what mean? Like we're not we're not called to that at all. And man, that's tempting. Yeah, you know, that's really tempting.

Cartwright Morris (27:28.816)
But yeah, there's gotta be a way to like balance the two. you know, value the relationship, but then also value the job that they're there to do or, know. Right, because at same time, they, you know.

they need to, the company needs to be productive. The organization needs to be productive and efficient, right? Or they lose money. that's thing. Yeah. It's like going back to the whole mortgage and you know, like, yeah, there's definitely an argument for that. Yeah. I mean, I think deep down that's what everybody does want a leader that has high standards because that means we're doing better. Yeah. But there's a tension of, yet I don't want you to neglect the humanity of who I am. Right. Treat me as a number. Yeah. It's like,

That held intention, we talk about it all the time here. yeah, anyway. And another piece too, with the, like I feel like sometimes you can hire somebody, this is going totally business by the way, sorry. But like you can hire somebody that is maybe more impressive than you are. they may be better at this job than you are, and that's hard too.

You know, being like, I'm gonna bring this person in and they can maybe look back in some ways or they could outperform me, but that's what we, that's what you want. You know? So like, I doubt there's a lot of successful businesses out there that haven't hired people that are extremely impressive enough so to where the, you know, the managers.

I don't know. You see what trying to say? Yeah, yeah. could be... Well, I mean, that's where I think some people say that's what you need to hire is people who can do the job where you're working yourself out of a job. Right. You know, but I think those... it doesn't happen as much is because of the people don't have the ability to reflect. Take those moments and go, man, why am I feeling so insecure about this person, you know, who's really great at what they do? And I've hired them to do it, but they're doing it better than me. Like, you know, you're doing too good. Yeah. Well, dude, you'd be shocked how much it happens.

Cartwright Morris (29:37.008)
I mean it really does man people's egos right? Yeah, you know when you got type a borderline narcissistic tendencies for some people They you know, they don't want to be outshine They don't want to look somebody else look like the hero and you know You're gonna have high turnover that way and you're not gonna track great people Yeah, but you want to be a type of leader that attracts great people and you're willing to let them just thrive You know, I think that's a mark of a great leader. That's not insecure about people

great. Yeah. It's not insecure about people outperforming them. I like that in itself like that's going back to the identity piece. Like your behavior does not affect my identity, Beau. I am set. I am good. I am clear in who I am and who I'm becoming. you know, but should I you know change behavior, think differently, have a different mind? Like yeah of course. You know but we too many times people start acting things around like he's better than me.

How do I make him look bad or make myself look better or try harder or do this or, you know, maybe give a little jab here and there. you know, we don't, we don't use those moments of that. Sometimes like insecurity popping up is a great one to that, that inflection. Like I feel that insecurity rising up where I feel like I have to overcompensate, be louder or withdraw. That is like, why do I feel that way? That is a great inflection point in our life of like, man.

because it happens a lot. Why is this person making me feel insecure about myself and my qualities and my abilities? Anyway. So when you get in that moment, question for you. Okay. So when you get in that moment and you feel humbled, embarrassed, maybe.

I'm trying to think of like a real-world scenario like examples like this or I mean it could be the story that you told about you and Felt kind of embarrassed maybe or like yeah, know Wow, I really am NOT putting into this what I should be and I'm being called out for it One how do you identify that that's happening in real time and then two? What's a good response? Like what would be a good?

Cartwright Morris (31:51.214)
Like you just say nothing for a little bit. Do you kind of digest or is there a good response for that? Or one that shows I mean, like I said, I think the one thing is I felt the urge to defend myself and call out the things that they had wrong versus listed the things they had right. But I think sometimes it is a feeling, I feel it in my chest sometimes. feel this feeling I want to withdraw, hit the ejector seat, pull away,

How do I get out? Sometimes it's like a fight or flight. It's like it is people want to like get away or they want to immediately start, let's start, you know, figuratively throwing bows. You know, it's like, how do we, it's that you could feel that coming up and it's like, okay, take a deep breath. Let's be quiet. Sometimes that's the best thing is like, let me just start by silence.

just hear it, receive it. And then like, mean, a great skill. mean, I'm a big fan of Stephen Covey's seven habits is like, you know, seek first to understand. I was like, all right, what I hear you say is this, is that what you're saying? But it's a practice because like I said, we are like fight or flight kicks in in our hormones go. And the only thing we know is to either fight or to run. And we don't, you know, or freeze. I guess that's the third option, right? We just kind of like.

But how do you recognize that's what's happening is just take a deep breath, just listen to what's being said. You know, guess Christians we can invite the Holy Spirit in that moment to give us, because like, the fruit to receive all that is His fruit, right? The fruits of the Spirit.

is the ability to hear that self-control, right? Be more self-aware, you know, allowing yourself to listen, to understand, and it actually makes you a better person.

Cartwright Morris (33:46.99)
And there could be a moment at the of that you do need to stand up for yourself. A hundred percent. That's where you got to use the wisdom to understand, like, hey, yeah, I'm not owning that. That's not on me. That's you putting that on me. There's a hundred percent that's part of the equation. I think being self-awareness is the biggest thing that you can do at that moment is like, how do I become more aware of like, all right, what's going on? Why do I want to either run or fight right now?

It's like, it's because they're doing something that most people haven't really done before in my life, or I haven't allowed that to happen. But sometimes it needs to be, you get mad in the moment and then you come back, like you did with Mike, maybe. I don't know, maybe you did it in real time, but like, you know what, he was right. I needed probably that check, realizing, you know? Yeah, well, Michael was kinda, with Michael, you...

He has a great delivery method.

So there's never a point where I'm like, I feel like he's attacking me right now. He's got this, like I've said, kind of this Jedi way of being really gentle, right? But, slapping you at the face and same time. It's definitely a gift. He's good at that. and it's so needed. Like I needed, I needed a lot. I'm like, a lot of guys are aged that are just like productivity, progress, productivity, like anything in the way that needs to be.

out of the way because there's nothing more, there could be nothing more valuable than that. that, and it never goes away. You know what mean? Like the relationships that you build, those are the things that you treasure. The people that I work with are the people that I love. I love the people I work with. And that's so much more valuable than my efficiency as a.

Cartwright Morris (35:46.946)
salesperson or a you know in like business or like trying to sign a different contract or like you know what mean it's like Those things go away, and then if you focus on just those things like signing the next contract getting the next deal You know pushing people out of the way to get whatever you need Trying to work by yourself because you don't really trust anybody else like That's never gonna go away, and it's never gonna satisfy you and I've learned I mean that I've learned that you know like it doesn't there's always gonna be something

something else. Yeah. Like I'll forget about that one and I'll be on to the next one and I'll be stressing myself out anxious trying to get to that one. Yeah. You know, kind like what we've talked about before. Like it's just never enough. That stuff's never enough. It's the people.

it's the people along the way. And so I don't want to burn people. I'm trying to be very intentional about that right now because kind of being new to like managing people and like being in a leadership position. It's, that's definitely like a balance that you, that I'm going to have to learn, you know? yeah.

because it's not just efficiency, efficiency, efficiency at any cost. Which is still, it's a good thing. It is a good thing. it's like any, you know, too much of a good thing is abusive. I know, know. You know? I know, it's the wrestle. It really is the tent, yeah. That's the wrestle right But I think, yeah, if you, Bo, I know you probably feel some level of like a leadership, stepping in, leading more other people. Like you gotta learn other tricks.

You gotta learn other tools to, you know, it's not just production, production, because not everybody's motivated by that. Yeah. And so, people are in a work environment and need to be motivated to do, to...

Cartwright Morris (37:37.038)
to be more productive or to do their job well, but maybe not everybody's motivated for production sake. So, anyway. Do we have that story? Do we have any more questions that we want to mention that way? Yeah, I was gonna kind of talk about that story. It's kind of the same thing, right? Yeah, I just thought it, yeah. Did you want to talk about it? You're a big fan. You want me to talk about it? Okay, hold on. I do love the story. I do love it. so, Cartwright sent a really good clip of Dax Shepard who

I kind of have a, I love Dax Shepard, you know, for some reason. I came across his podcast years ago and he just was like,

He just seemed really real. he, unlike a lot of people in Hollywood, you know what mean? Like he seemed really real. Obviously he's married to Kristen Bell, who's in a bunch of famous babies and they've been married for like almost like 15 years as he was saying in the clip, I think. Anyway, so him and so they're in Nashville. Dax and Kristen are in Nashville and at a steak house. And he was like the small things while I like him. He said he loves a salad bar, you know, so he,

goes to this place because there's a salad bar, know, like, um, uh, usually picture people like that, you know, like white tablecloths all the time, not decks. Um, and so anyway, they are, uh, he's up at the salad bar getting his salad.

and he's wearing a t-shirt and that offended somebody else in the restaurant, another man in the restaurant. Which is in the south. In the south. We get that. Yeah. I know people like that. We do get that. That's a good point. He probably didn't even register. Because out there in LA, they don't LA is from Michigan. yeah. he's from Michigan. Yeah, that's right. yeah, dude. The first time I went to church in California, I grew up going to church where my dad wore a suit and tie every day to church. Yeah, yeah.

Cartwright Morris (39:35.44)
and I go to California church and people were in tanks and got sleeve tattoos and you're like, what? I'm like, okay. You know, I thought dressing down was a golf shirt. Yeah. So that's what you were like on casual Friday, right? It was a golf shirt and maybe jeans, maybe G that's a little risky. Yeah. Not that white wash. So anyway, so yes, I imagine it was a little bit of that culture.

Southern-ness. Yes, I didn't pick up on that. That's a good point. Yeah, he's wearing a t-shirt and a finzagon in restaurant. We could all picture what this guy looks like. Probably got a half zip. Yeah. No, dude, he's probably got, you know, this is nice stuff.

And so anyway, does the waiter come up to Dax and say, man, you've offended this guy because you're wearing a t-shirt? yeah, think it's somebody is, yeah, somebody let, no, no, no, his buddy, his buddy's eating with him. Told him, he goes, hey dude, this guy's getting real upset about your t-shirt. Okay. So anyway. So it must've overheard or something. Yeah. And then Kristen. And then Kristen says, all right, we should buy his meal for him. Yeah. And so. the initial thought is, wait, what? Yeah. But, but, but now you like in high

side anyway. Yeah, sorry, I'm still in your thought. No, no, I like it. it. Yeah, I've got some gaps. So anyway, they pay for his meal and then Dax like motions over to him like, man, I'm so sorry, you know, basically killing him with kindness. And then the guy's wife recognizes Kristen, right, from because Kristen is famous or whatever. Mortified. And then both him, the guy and his wife were mortified and they actually left through the side entrance of the restaurant.

Anyway, the whole point being, what a humbling moment for that guy. You know, coming in with this massive ego. I mean, can you imagine the ego being like, hey, what he's wearing offends me. know, like that's nuts. But anyway, what a humbling moment for him. I wonder how he took that and like, did he say, hmm, probably shouldn't be that guy in these restaurants or?

Cartwright Morris (41:50.284)
Gosh, I really don't like that, that Shepard guy, even though he just paid for your mail. Anyway, yeah, really, really interesting. Really, yeah, like that guy, like I said, had three choices in that moment leading. was one, obviously the initial hit, I'm embarrassed. like good, like overwhelmed with kindness, like because of how this guy treated me, it caused this inflection moment where he could then reflect on and go, all right, I could go, woe is me, I'm such a jerk.

You know, it not really changed and just, you know, like, oh man, my wife, yeah, kind of showed my blank, my rear there. And, but, or he could get really ticked and like you said, like, oh, that Dax Shepard, you know what? I'm going to get him one day. Give him a bad review. Yeah. That's right. I'm going to get on his podcast and give him one star. That's right. Really bring down his rating. Uh, no, but like, or go, man, why?

I feel like I have to, one, speak up in that moment. Why is this the hill I'm willing to die on? Somebody wearing a t-shirt in a restaurant, whether he comes there all the time or, you know, he's only been there once or twice in his life. But, and then, you know, and then, like, it should be because I'm affected now, another person. I'm affecting my wife in this moment. Like, ooh, yikes. But it is funny, like, I'm sure the wife, especially the wife's reaction created that.

more hopefully that reflection point. Cause it's like, there's a good mix when we talked about the getting people we don't really know that well versus people we don't like. So he doesn't, he sees this guy in a t-shirt who he doesn't know from Adam and goes, I don't like that guy. You know what? I'm going to let everybody know about it. Waiter, you know, like.

And that, so there's that that brings that inflection point, but then the people that know us and love us then kind of can respond in that mode. It's like, wow. would say sometimes it's been the best conversation I've had. I've come home with my wife and been like, hey, this happened today. And I'm thinking X, Y, and Z, what do you think? And their perspective on that situation has brought me clarity or helped me whether it's been...

Cartwright Morris (44:03.803)
no, that person, it was that person and you did great. Or, you know what, I have noticed you do that too.

Yeah, when they said that. So it's like there's something too, almost like both-sided that I think that's what's great about this example. And I think it's fun because you're right, Dax tells it really well. I'll have to put the link to the short. He's got that accent. He's got like the Northern Yankee accent. Yeah, Almost like a mix of Midwestern. Yeah, that's right. It's kind of Midwestern. Midwestern Yankees. They're all Yankees, right? Yeah, They're here. Yeah, no, I love that. And I love the humility for

Dax and Kristen, I say their names because I feel like I know them.

They, yeah. You know what mean? That's a problem with podcasts today is when you're feeling you know people too much. Yeah, that's right. We're in the same space. Yeah. Same industry. Same industry. But also love that response. Like the ability to swallow your pride and not only not acknowledge and say, dude, I'm Dax Shepard and look at my wife as Kristen Bell. Yeah. he could have gone over there and a hundred percent embarrassed him in a way that was probably more embarrassed.

to him to Dax yeah like I'm a big shot but he don't know who I am yeah he didn't choose he chose not to do that and then on top of that pay for his meal so that to me I just yeah I love that I think that should be encouraged by us like if we really want to create really challenge people like man do it in ways that really like

Cartwright Morris (45:38.318)
is like kill with kindness in a lot of ways. I think that's a good example. But it's also like he could have like, I'm sure his t-shirt was probably a hundred, $200 t-shirts, probably one of those designer t-shirts. So which is kind of funny, right? So he could have gone over there and poked up. It's like, who wins with that one? You know, but in that moment, he feels like you win though. Really? That is a win-win in that situation. The way they did it. Yeah. Because one, like, Hey, they feel better about the response.

You know, and they kind of got to go, I just bought your meal, But and they got that guy got to leave not because they embarrassed him, but they it was a way to.

not embarrass him with strength, but embarrass him in a way that allows change to come in. Not overpower, which is lot of people think that's the way to get people's with power. It's like come in with a level of humility. You're inviting that person to change in that moment, which is a very Christ-like feature. You're inviting that person to change. Anyway, I thought that was a good one.

like we've been talking about, these small moments that maybe nobody else even notices that really hit us in our egos. And it's funny how those type things can shape us more in a way, like I can remember example after example of things like that that happened in my life that probably nobody else in the room noticed, but I still remember and I...

I've like, it shaped me a little bit, like, not necessarily like, don't do that again, but like, hey man, don't, you really don't need to be like that guy overconfident. Like, you don't need to be, you can know your stuff without having to be at the top. And everybody else knowing you're at the top. And it took these small moments where it like poked my ego that I remember way more than like trying to find a new job or like some of

Cartwright Morris (47:45.808)
big chapters in our life or like you know like I don't know trying yeah getting fired from a job trying to find a new job or like you know being rejected by a family member or like whatever it could be like it it's the small ones that like sometimes in a way kind of hurt the most but because they're so unexpected yes yeah maybe that's why but it's interesting how those shape us even more in a way mm-hmm those small humbling moments

How do you think, or why do you think men often miss these moments? Like why do you think, why do you think they just go unnoticed by men a lot of the times? Or maybe that's a bad way to phrase the question. Maybe it's, why do they not see the...

Lesson? Yeah, like the opportunity there to like become better or like is it because they reviewed us so small or like do some people like not feel that? Like are there some people out there that like don't feel the ego poke that we do? Like is there are their ego so big? Yeah.

that they don't even notice when they've been pet? Probably. There's probably something called narcissism, right? Where you see things through a lens. That's exactly what that is. Yeah, 100%. That's like, where everything is deflected. The only way to survive and to protect, they're living in survival mode, narcissists, of like, I have to constantly either be the hero or the victim.

There's no middle ground. So I'm constantly deflecting to make myself look like either one. But we're talking about these everyday men out there, because a lot of us, just don't have the practice.

Cartwright Morris (49:37.166)
We don't take stock at the end of the day. We don't reflect and go, hey, what was good or why didn't I like that or why didn't that go well? Or we don't think, or we think in adjusted, constantly in adjusted behavior of like, well, I just won't do that again. It's like if something goes wrong or whether it's at work or in your marriage or in a relationship or.

You know, even sports, think about it in sports. It's like, you know, like if you make a bad play, you don't do it like, and you immediately think, well, I just won't do that again. It's like, well, you're just, you just doomed yourself. Cause now you just, I try to- You're going to strike out again. A hundred percent. Yeah. It's like, well, then you're not playing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. But I think that we think we do that in life and it's like, well, no, the answer is like, how do I be, how do I do go?

think differently about this? How do I process? How do I improve? How do I get help? How do I seek help? Get that humility piece, right? Is there anything like more refreshing than like a man that you respect and like look up to?

like willing to acknowledge like or tell a story about a time that they screwed up like I love it when guys like guys that are like super successful like I've got guys in my life that are in their 50s and That I'm like I want to be like that guy and and almost all every single time like when they tell a story about like a vulnerable moment Yeah, it's almost like a another way to connect and then my respect for him doesn't go down because they struck out my respect for him goes up You're right because it's like he's willing to admit it. You know what mean? And

Anyway, even when you're like, oh, he could make a mistake, man. You know what mean? Like he's, gosh, he's, he's got it going on. Right. You know? And then when you hear a story about when they, when they actually did mess up or like they were embarrassed, like, is there anything worse than feeling embarrassed as a man? you know I mean? Like probably there is, but.

Cartwright Morris (51:35.47)
You know like that guy felt embarrassed like this one time I went through something like that You know like respect my point is respect doesn't go down when you hear somebody like that say that it's like I respect that guy even more Yeah, and I don't like him even more. I want to spend time with this guy. You know like I want to be around him I want to I want to hear more stories like that humility is attractive. I don't know some way along the lines, maybe

We miss that as young boys and we miss that part, right? Or maybe there's a way to protect ourselves by not being humble. But you make a good point, Bo. It's like it really is when some guys are willing to humble in that moment and actually, man, that...

That moment where I was embarrassed, was humbled, was disappointed or I failed, like, that's a great learning tool. Something I learned that I can then, one, it improves my life, improves what I do on a regular basis, but also can be helpful for somebody else. Like that, just process that, you know, it's wild that so many men are in their 50s, 60s, and 70s and just never really done that. It's like.

any bit of failure, they internalize or they just dismiss, they threw it off. And like that, that is a mark of somebody that is really, you know, one attractive to someone to learn from, but also like someone who is really needs to be have respect.

It's wild to think about you think about those, those types of men. it's like, yeah, unfortunately they're, they're fewer far between, but yeah, it's a, and when you find one, you're like, just want to spend. And when you think this is kind of nerd now a little bit, but when you think like, think about like, some of the marketing books I've read, Donald Miller storyteller. Yeah. When you think about the path of a superhero in a story. we're talking about a superhero, somebody that's held in massively high regard who

Cartwright Morris (53:34.508)
some kind of special power, whatever. And it doesn't have to be a superhero. It could be, you could think of a million different movies, You talk about the hero's journey. The hero's journey. So you go on this ascent, you face conflict, you fall flat on your face, like what we're talking about. You find a, what's he called, the helper? You find a guide. The guide comes along and then he or she helps guide you back to whatever ascent you were on. And that's

That's like the blueprint of story that has shaped hundreds of years of what's like we've looked at. so for men to not be able to like, so the fascinating part of what we're talking about to me is the falling flat on your face moment. Whether it's big, whether it's you get fired from a job or whether Dak Shepard makes you look like an idiot in a steak restaurant. You know what mean? They're both similar and you can both learn from each.

and I've even found in the past the smaller ones where I even feel more embarrassed at times, you know, because they're so unexpected and they offer such an opportunity to like Okay, now I'm not I'm gonna learn not to do that again. Right? There's probably there's definitely humility here that I need to learn you know, and then also How can I kind of avoid this in the future? How can I? You know, how could I not do this again, even though you will do it again. I don't mean it like that but

how can I use it as a learning opportunity, not necessarily like, you know, a moment that like people even lose more respect for you for in a way.

Cartwright Morris (55:17.166)
Say that question again, I'm still kind of like, help me understand what you're asking. That was a lot you just said. How do you what? Hold on, let me start over from the beginning. It's 20 minutes. This will take 20 minutes. It's not really a question. It's like just on the pathway of what a story looks like in the past, like the blueprint of story. And as Ben, why is it so hard to...

Why is it so hard to fall flat on our face and not see the value in it? I guess it's because of the emotion of it. Right. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Yeah. I'm sorry. I got to go to the restroom. That's what I'm thinking about right now. So, uh, you know, honestly, probably should. Uh, but can you tell this coffee hit? did, man. Woo. No, but I'm with you. Like I'm, Beau, I am like,

100%. That was another 100 % what I'm talking about when I love interviewing people, because I love their hero's journey, their story. When we understand the story of our life and actually use those humbling moments for the benefit of us. it's us, our story being part of the bigger story. that's like, mean, Joseph Campbell, when he came up with that, he was...

Studying literature. He was studying the Bible. He was studying throughout history these these arcs Talked about episode one the story arc of our life like that is what's unique about being human and when we don't collect that part of our just

making the embarrassment. We miss out on really figuring out one who we really are, but two how to really grow. Yeah. You know, like embracing that story, embracing what God has done in our life, using the good, the bad, the ugly, the fun, the embarrassments, the, you know, like all of that is part of molding us into something really us discovering more of who

Cartwright Morris (57:24.688)
he has for us and who he's made us to be. It's like, man, if we allow that to happen, that can happen. But most of us don't. Most of us don't like to think of us that way. We want to insulate ourselves from pain with money, addictions, rejection, job title, right? We want to insulate ourselves from all that. Instead of going, you know what, I'm on a pretty cool little story.

And this little blip is going to propel me to something greater, if I allow it. For most of us. That make sense? Yeah, because you nailed it. Do have anything else, Bo? Is there anything else? That was a really good close. You think that was a good close? Yeah. Alright. Thanks for listening.

Cartwright Morris (58:14.178)
Yeah, we could add it right to where you kind of wrap.