Why Most Leaders Default to Reactive or Passive—And How to Become a Reflective Leader | FORGE Pillar #3 | Episode 159

In this episode, Cartwright and Bo explore the concept of the Reflective Leader—an essential mindset for emerging leaders and seasoned professionals alike. Discover how reflection, humility, and self-awareness can transform your leadership style and foster genuine growth.

In this episode:

• The importance of leading through reflection rather than reaction
• Differentiating reactive, passive, and reflective leadership styles
• How to build habits of honest self-examination
• The role of high standards and personal discipline in leading others
• Practical steps for developing self-leadership in your 20s and 30s
• Why embracing failure accelerates leadership growth
• The power of journaling and prayer for self-awareness
• Insights from Navy SEAL training on identity-based automacity
• The significance of high-standard self-leadership to inspire others

Timestamps:

• 00:00 - Introduction to the Reflective Leader and its relevance for young professionals
• 02:01 - Overview of the Five Pillars curriculum and upcoming programs
• 03:52 - Deep dive into the Reflective Leader concept and its core principles
• 04:59 - Comparing reactive, passive, and reflective leadership styles
• 06:10 - The maturity and humility of the Reflective Leader
• 07:15 - Embracing failure and learning from success
• 08:25 - The risk of defaulting to reactive or passive leadership
• 10:43 - The importance of empathy and understanding your leadership role
• 12:00 - Cultivating honest self-assessment through regular reflection
• 13:37 - The significance of having voices and diverse perspectives
• 15:25 - Real-world example of healthy disagreement and mutual respect in leadership
• 16:43 - Building trust through transparency and humility
• 18:08 - Managing emotional responses under pressure
• 20:04 - The value of addressing differences early to prevent escalation
• 21:14 - Lessons from youth sports about handling pressure and failure
• 22:56 - How pressure situations promote growth in leadership skills
• 29:36 - Practical steps for leading oneself, including embracing discomfort and failure
• 31:01 - Living from a place of unshakable identity and confidence
• 32:45 - The significance of feedback and journaling for continual growth
• 36:14 - Writing as a tool for honesty and spiritual connection
• 40:18 - The importance of genuine leadership over surface-level content
• 42:54 - Overcoming superficial notions of leadership through authenticity
• 44:44 - The power of behavior-based formation versus superficial tactics
• 47:20 - The role of identity and self-perception in resilience and perseverance
• 50:48 - The need for camaraderie and authentic connection among men
• 52:25 - Final thoughts on ongoing personal growth and leadership

Resources & Links:

• The Reason for God by Tim Keller
• MEN ARE FORGED Website

Connect with Cartwright Morris

Transcript

Cartwright Morris (00:02.342)
Alright, we're back back back. We're back, baby Back at you Hey, we're putting out content here baby, though, I mean, I guess that's what they say

We appreciate all those still listening, appreciate those who've gotten a couple of recent texts, people enjoying what we're doing both. So that's positive. Yeah, that's awesome. You know, I'd love to get up to a couple thousand downloads, but here we are. We'll get there. Yeah, I mean, if this is something resonate and let us know because I've really.

It feels like it's kind of like the culmination, a little bit of my life's work. Which is, you know, good. so sometimes it feels a little vulnerable, but here we are.

That's why honored to be here, for real. Thanks for having me again, for real. I love it. like to come in and record, really. You haven't figured this out yet, but it's a free counseling session for me. man, I should have been charging. We just recorded, so appreciate that, So we are in the Five Pillars, the curriculum that Cartwright put together that is rolling out soon, right?

Yeah, Well, I mean, guess by the time I post this, it will be in the first or second week of my pilot group.

Cartwright Morris (01:41.764)
So this is a full program that I'm kind of slow rolling for the next six weeks. I already got eight guys, I think eight guys signed up for it and it's gonna be on Tuesdays. It's gonna be a more comprehensive program rolling out in the fall where there's gonna be different components to it with just, not just the peer discussion group and, but.

I'm gonna have different components like one on one mentoring and different stuff. But right now, yeah, it's just gonna be the content just like 50 minutes I mean really I'm gonna Guys come in about 645 try to get them out even before 745 so they get to work on time. So Yeah, if you interested in hear more about that feel free to reach out But yeah, I'm excited do it I'm excited to eight guys you said yeah, that's gonna be awesome

I'm going to have to come be a shadow on the wall for one of those. speaking of that, the five pillars, what you call the full framework, it spells out forge, which I think I misspelled last week. Forge is tricky. No, it's F-O-R-G-E. We did F, F is faithful son.

Personally, that's my favorite. Well, we haven't gotten to all of them. So I can't say that yet. But so far that's my favorite. That's what's resonated the most with me. If you don't know much about that one, you can go back and look at the previous episode where we talked about for about an hour, right? Yeah. I posted it.

this for y'all. Tomorrow's 22nd, so I posted it on the 15th. Posted it on tax day. Yeah, perfect. Tax day. And then... gotta learn to be a faithful son on tax day. Yeah, absolutely. You have no choice. Faithful son of Uncle Sam. And then the second is offensive servant, so that one will be coming out.

Cartwright Morris (03:40.74)
I guess tomorrow, thank you for listening to this, was last week, so sorry, that's confusing. Or I just made it confusing. And then this week, I'm excited about this one, it's Reflective Leader. And what I think is cool about this one,

I think a lot of guys in their 20s and 30s guys that are listening to this are probably learning this in real time Because you may have just gotten a job or you may have been in the same job for a few years Or you've transitioned to another job, whatever your situation is You're learning how to lead and you're also learning that it might be appropriate to lead even though you're not in a leadership position Yeah And so what exactly does that look like? So the first thing you have underneath there is you don't just react

act you reflect learn then lead with wisdom so leading is not just reacting

with emotion all the time, right? I guess we know a lot of people like that. But it's reflecting, learning, and then leading with wisdom, which I think is really good. Yeah, I mean, I feel like this one is kind of apex of everything I do because I mean, so much of what I'm trying to do is build these reflective leaders because we've, I would say the, you know, y'all have heard of me talking about this, reflective leaders, the third option and the other two are generally, we've all been around the reactive leader, the guy who's just snap judgments.

snap decisions, you know, basically makes a very large mess and, you know, generally has a low threshold for failure, disappointment, holds a different standard for people that he doesn't hold for himself, he or she, right, for this men's podcast, right? You know, and so they have a high turnover rate, all that.

Cartwright Morris (05:30.213)
Then you have the passive leader that probably creates too much of autonomy, not a lot of accountability, basically does, you know, is kind of...

know, flowing through with the wind, reacts, is also can be very reactive with trends and sounding good and expects people, you know, it gives a lot of responsibility and a lot of authority or has, you know, different expectations for different people, right? It's just, I think we've all kind of worked for either one of these two. Or then there's the reflective leader, someone who really speaks from a place of wisdom and experience.

allowed chaos, whether it's chaos or even structure, to kind of mold them into like, okay, I'm not always going to make the right decision, but I'm humble enough to know that I don't know everything, but I'm confident enough to do something that one serves the organization, the people around me, or...

and also that creates meaningful change or success, right? And usually that's the type of person, a key component is that what did they do with failure?

or success, both. What did they learn from winning and losing? And they didn't just brush it to the side. They didn't just like put their head down, but they actually looked at it go, okay, what was good? What was bad? What do I need to get better at? How do I need to respond better? Right? They're just always learning. They believe they're a lifelong learner. That's a reflective leader. People that we've really seen successful is they're constantly, they've become very confident in what they need to do or

Cartwright Morris (07:19.047)
what they're good at, but they're not so ego-based pride where they're they're not thinking about being great at everything. And they allow people to come be underneath them and go, oh, this person's great at that, that I'm not great at, and allow them to thrive. So that's the kind of reflective leader, real quick.

probably gave too much word vomit but that's kind of that's good. It's interesting so just hearing you say that I feel like now so I'm in my mid-30s which is weird to say. 34? Yeah. Man. Anyway. When's your birthday again? February 18th. Oh yeah. Yeah mid-30s. Why did I not know you had a February birthday? Because you don't pay attention. I don't. don't.

though but for real so I kind of have the thought in hearing you say there's reflective leader there's passive leader and then what was the third one reactive passive reflective reactive reactive so I think just in hearing this say that I think my first thought is if you're not learning this stuff

intentionally you will default to either the passive or the reactive leader, right? Because I feel like anytime you add pressure of running a business or ministry or anything like that, it's so easy to default into being reactive, right? Because you're like, man, I'm worried about these other things to keep this thing afloat, know? And the people that are worried about you are idiots. need to get in line and figure it out. Right, right, right. And so I could easily see myself slipping into that as you start looking into like,

You know making sure your business thrives and does well And then with passive too. Well usually what happens is passive it people think is the antithesis of reactive That's what they end up becoming. It's like I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be a jerk I want it, you know, want my employees to like me. I want you know, I don't want to I've had that so this is the solution You're like no, that's not how that works. People need accountability people want strong

Cartwright Morris (09:29.319)
leadership structure, someone who's got a backbone and a plan of how to move forward, right? They want standards. At the end of the day, like, they may not like it at first, but eventually they go, you know, because it was interesting, both...

type of leaders, the reactive and the passive, end up having high turnover rates. Because the best performers don't want to be around a passive leader because they want high standards, right? Because they want to see their success being rewarded, but then react like, but they also don't want to be around reactive because they're not appreciated or valued. Right? And they're, you know, they're constantly put down for being really good at what they're doing because this person's insecure about who they, know, maybe, maybe the reactive

leader is more of an insecure leader. Both of them are insecure. was going to say, yeah they might be. It sounds like in order to be a reflective leader you're sacrificing a lot of ego right? Because you're saying well hold on let me understand you first. Yeah. You know what I mean? And not so much saying no this is what you need to get it. Yeah. You need to get on board or get out. Which you've had to coach me on stuff like that before. No that's really cool. I kind of almost like I don't know if this

is this may not be right but I almost in at least in the brief reading of this in preparation for this episode I almost feel a little bit of empathy for the reactive and passive leader because it's like I get it I get it you know but bad transition but I really do it's almost like

I can see how you could easily slip into that. But then in turn, it makes me appreciate the reflective leaders even more. it's like, oh, these are the type of people that really understand their role and that are diving into what do I need to do in order to empower the people around me so that the whole organization thrives. It just feels like there's like an extra step those people are willing to take that others aren't. And so for me, it's like,

Cartwright Morris (11:42.392)
you

you know, a real practical step you can take is taking a course like this, not to be salesy, but really, I mean, it's like, you know, we'll learn about it first and then, I don't know. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. So anyway, but yeah, that's the other thing on there is that this pillar builds the habit of honest self-examination. So your leadership flows from insight and not impulse. Yeah. Insight versus impulse.

Oh man, yeah, it's like we all want to be that guy, but we're not willing to probably do the stuff to become that guy. What's some of the stuff you gotta do? Well, one, you gotta be confronted. You gotta be confrontable. You gotta be willing to take feedback and challenge. This, here, I actually read that this morning and I'm gonna hit this and it's around Tim Keller talking about Christians unwilling to...

people that it's in the context of the Bible, but I think it's really for anything. I it's really and I think this is a good good lesson right here. All right.

So this is from his book, The Reason for God. if we let our unexamined beliefs undermine our confidence in the Bible, the cost may be greater than we think. If we don't trust the Bible enough to let it challenge and correct your thinking, how could you ever have a personal relationship with God? In any truly personal relationship, the other person has to be able to contradict you.

Cartwright Morris (13:21.253)
And so what I mean by that, I think in the context of leadership, You have to have voices. One, you have to allow voices to speak. This is in the context of your relationship with God in the Bible. But I think also, are you allowing truth to be in your organization and your leadership style and the people around you? Are you allowing people to say, hey, I think that's not right? Or hey, did you think of it this way?

Just a, and the thing is, what's so bad is, that's what I mean by the dispelling of your ego. When you allow others to have voices, you don't necessarily have to take their advice, but you give them a place to speak, you may get some other ideas that are probably better than your own. We're just so limited in our own thinking, and that's why you have a team, that's why you have people around you, but most of us are so attached to our own.

Yeah, voices are own ideas that it's like anything outside of that. It's like we get so dismissive of or belittling because we're so obsessed with it. We're terrified if we're wrong.

And so I think learning to confront that is like, yeah, how can I be okay with being wrong sometimes? Because I think that creates more, when you're allowing yourself to do that, you...

have better relationships, people trust you more, which in a leadership, organizational context, that's just like, it's a game changer. I feel like I can come in your office and say, the way this happened, I don't like how this played out.

Cartwright Morris (15:08.015)
just would love to hear your thoughts on it. yeah. Yeah. And having the freedom to do that, because if you don't have a place where you can do stuff like that, it'll stay inside of you and it'll fester and it'll turn into something completely different. A few months down the road, it'll turn from like, I disagreed from this one situation with whoever's leading me. I can't bring light to it because I'm not confident that in how they'll react, cause they may be a reactive leader. And then two months from now it could,

At least for me, like it could turn from like just a work thing and then it festers into something even like personal. Yeah. You know what mean? So just not being able to get it out. Not having the freedom. One thing I talk about Michael a lot on here. Michael's my boss. Michael, one thing I really, really have learned from him, he gives us the freedom. it's Michael's our CEO and then we've got a layer of directors underneath him and I'm one of the directors and we have a leadership meeting every Thursday.

And one of my jobs is to lead the leadership meeting so that he can kind of observe and you know add input and we had one time this was recently where him and I disagreed on something about our sales process. Yeah.

What I really liked about his approach was, or what I liked about the organization he's built is I knew that I could say, hey, I disagree with this. And his response was, that's fine. You can disagree. That's noted. We're doing this though. Right. Yeah. And then it turned from like, okay, well at least he knows. then now I'm going to be a good follower and I'm going to, I'm going to do what,

sets you know what I my voice is still valued in the room. Exactly. If there's something else I agree with I can still voice it. 100%. So he's able to in a way really do both. You're being heard but we're gonna do it his way.

Cartwright Morris (17:10.821)
You know what I mean? And, um, he's always open to input. He's always open to us taking ownership of our, buckets that we own in the, in the company. But when it comes to a decision needing to be made, he's going to be the final voice and final say on this is what we're doing, whether you agree or don't agree. It's not personal. And so it doesn't allow that to stay inside of me faster and turn into something completely different. You know what I mean? So, so yeah, you being able to do that until you get,

Until you're in those situations, this so bad, these, we have to be, this is what I mean about becoming a reflective leader, is you have to put yourself in those situations more and more, because you can start doing that in real time more and more. more times you do that, the less you fester on it.

But I think as a leader, it's like there is a scientific thing of just like when you're confronted, what ends up happening for all of us, whether you're passive, reflective, or a reactive leader, you generally, the cortisol level goes up and you immediately feel and you're like, and you want to respond.

And whether it's an anger, whatever. So a reactive leader then responds out of that quarter laws level going up and going either wants to accuse or tell them they're an idiot, belittle their thought, basically push them away because you feel like you're being exposed. A passive leader will then go, I don't like what they're saying, but I want to make them feel better, but not actually do anything about it. But I'm to make them feel better.

nothing's gonna change. Where a reactive leader goes, okay, I'm feeling this level of cortisol, my blood pressure's kinda rising, not loving what they're saying, okay. But we can, could, let's, all right, but I think there's something that, a value that they're saying to even Mike, and I'd use your example of Mike, probably, and he's like, he's not liking it. Well, at this point, there's no turning back. Thanks, Beau, for your input.

Cartwright Morris (19:18.511)
but we're gonna continue to move forward. Right? It's like learning in that real time to just start processing information. Yeah, mean his words exactly were, he said, I mean can see it now, said, okay, you're free to disagree, I hear you. This is what we're doing. And I was like, okay. It doesn't really allow for like,

anything other than just gaining more respect even though it's almost like the reflective leader in a way gives Even when you disagree that it's it's still

even in that moment where you have different approaches to some sort of project, it even allows you to respect them more in a way. Yeah. You know what mean? Cause it's like, Oh, okay. I understand. Yeah. I understand. Like we both understand each other. We just have different viewpoints, but you know,

my respect for you as a leader, know, your way is going to go. Does that make sense? Yeah. It's kind of like, even though it was a disagreement, it, he did not allow the disagreement to turn into a, um,

an opportunity to where we butted heads. He turned it into a way where it was like still mutual respect, which then grew the respect even more. Yep. Does that make sense? A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. It's like something about, because most of us been around where there's not even acknowledgement of the gap, not even acknowledgement of the difference. Yeah. It's like, Hey, yeah, I get there's a difference of opinion here, but don't pretend like it's not there. Right. Yeah.

Cartwright Morris (20:59.333)
but we still gotta move forward. There still needs to be action taken. Where I think a reflective leader does both, where passive leader may address the gap, but not really make any action step. Where the reactive leader is like, don't care about the gap. I don't care what you think or your concern. We're moving forward. They're so completely different. And it's a...

It's really interesting. It's funny. So I went to my nephew's baseball game this weekend. He plays an eight-year-old baseball.

I started getting so much empathy for these eight-year-olds. As the first inning, they had like five or six errors and were down 12 to one. Ended up cutting the lead down to two later in the game. But I was like, the moms are screaming. They're overreacting to every play. There's some tears going on on the field. The coaches are slamming gloves down, throwing hats.

You know, there's like, you can tell the fans are like, come on. And then it's like, but good job, effort. And so you feel the pressure and you're almost like, I don't think I'll ever expose my son to this nonsense. But then I start processing through it as I'm reflecting, right? But it's like, no, this is probably really.

It can crush someone or it can really make someone because you start really going, okay, I'm like everybody in the room, chill out. These are eight year olds. They don't even have the coordination to necessarily catch a ball every time or throw it from third to first. Like, come on. Like literally they don't have the hand-eye coordination to do that. But there is something to say of putting kids, young adults, or even young men in presser situations and see what happens. Like stop being, we've talked

Cartwright Morris (23:00.711)
but this stopped being so obsessed with the result. And so I was sitting there thinking, I'm like, yeah, it's probably good for them in the long term.

those that are willing to keep exposing themselves will get really good at the skill set because they'll start being able to reflect on it and like, the pressure is a good thing. It actually allows me to get better at a faster pace, whether, you know, in the game versus just in practice, you know? And I was just sitting there thinking about that. was like, I started feeling a lot of, you know, maybe my leaning towards my passive side of like, I'm feeling a lot of empathy for these eight year olds and

I'm kind of getting sad for him, but I'm almost like, no, I think...

The ones that constantly shrink from the pressure moments don't actually learn from it as much as those willing to get, you know, actually dive in, you know, I don't know. It's interesting. Yeah. A hundred percent. get that. And unless you, unless you define that it is about the, guess, unless you're able to step out and be reflective enough to understand, okay, the pressure is a good thing. Then when you're in the pressure, you'll never, you'll never see it that way. Right. It'll only be about,

what result do we need because of this pressure. I don't want the coach to yell at me. Yeah. Or I don't want the moms to scream. Right, right, right. Yeah, that's going happen anyway. Exactly. You can't control them. You can control you.

Cartwright Morris (24:32.387)
I want to talk about one key trait you have listed because I want to get your thoughts on it. So you've got a few key traits things that we've already hit on teachable spirit, right? Learning from failure and success. What I want to hear you talk about is leading others by leading yourself. man. So leading others by leading yourself. What do mean by that? Well, it's kind of the whole premise of this whole podcast, right? How do you actually, maybe it harpens back to the

last week's offensive servant mindset not waiting around for something to happen but I think it goes back to the second greatest commandment Jesus said love your neighbor as yourself there's something to it's like hey I learned I know how to love Bo and I start learning how to love me you know I have higher levels of empathy I have

greater context, I understand from my experience more. know how to, I mean I would say, man, but more and more I'm like, you you deal with someone who is super condescending, belittling, and just doesn't know how to talk to people. I'm like, that's how they talk to themselves. The more and more I'm like,

Yeah, that's, that's, that's, yeah, that's what deep down I'm realizing. That's what, that's how you speak. You think that's how you talk to yourself in, in, but you beat yourself up every time you don't work out. So you think that's how you should interact with everybody else. And it's like, that's not how that works. So have you seen that? you seen like people that speak that what others are? Yeah. That's how they discuss. yeah. They're, they're insanely hard on themselves. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting.

Yeah, it makes perfect sense though. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, they're just seeing they're seeing other people through the same lens. They see themselves. Yeah Though they probably wouldn't hold themselves to the standard they hold other people which is a contradiction You should always as well. That's what I mean. I mean leading yourself Well, you should hold your stand you should talk to yourself better, but hold yourself to a higher standard than you do others Yeah, okay. I mean, that's the Michael Jordan thing. I mean he he obviously Didn't talk to people great, but he held himself to a higher standard

Cartwright Morris (26:48.251)
else. You know? Yeah. then we use a lot of sports analogies here. But that's another one, I loved, you know, as Auburn fans, we hate talking about saving, but it's interesting. Like, somebody talked about, it's like, hey, is that a lot of pressure, you know, coming to Alabama? There's always pressure to win. He goes, the standard for me is way higher than the fans have for me. It's like, Yeah. And you saw the result. Yeah. So,

Funny enough, I sat down with a guy, I had to talk to somebody this weekend who said, went to the 2009 National Championship the Bama had in the Rose Bowl, he goes, honey, we gots to go because we just never know when they're be back. And then for the next 15 minutes. Sorry, didn't have the source I'm gonna brought up. But anyway, hey, we did go next year though. So.

Anyway, I'm just... Yeah, there is just something too about leading yourself well that others are drawn to. Because if you have a high standard for yourself, people will want to be underneath that. Like the standard for yourself is high, you know. There's something to it, But if you, you know, but because people feel the cognitive dissonance, the hypocrisy of someone who says one thing and does another.

It's, you know, unfortunately it's like, man, the lack of respect, the lack of, yeah, it's just. pick up on that quick, I feel like, right? Yes. Yeah. And so when you set a high standard of like, hey, I'm,

I am willing to do, I will do anything, I will, what's the line? I think this is what Jordan said in the last dance. All his teammates said, whatever he called us to do, he was willing to do that times 10. It's like, as much as I don't like him, I respect him and I will follow him.

Cartwright Morris (28:53.253)
It's like, yeah, that's the thing. Not to mention how good he was under pressure too. Oh my gosh. The best under pressure problem. Yeah, I mean that was... He embraced the pressure. Yeah. a flash shot or a... He wanted all that. So that was another thing, talking about just high pressure and reflect of reflective leaders. Like somebody said he has just had the insane ability to be present. Just in that moment.

It's like nothing was too high or too low. He was just there. He was the same guy, whether it was the last shot in the third game of season or if it was game seven, then season, right? It was just like, that's who he was. And you're like, there's something about that as you're growing reflective and that you're very present. No moment's too big, no problem's too high. We're just gonna approach it.

Yeah, we know how approach it. anyway. So what are some ways that guys in their 20s and 30s can lead themselves well so that they can lead others well?

I mean, I think one is like, put yourself in some, don't avoid the harder things. You know, I think lead yourself into embrace some level and then don't be obsessed with result, embrace some level of failure. Put yourself in situations where you're just gonna fail. In my 20s, I wish I embraced that more. I wish I got more.

appreciation. Sometimes, you know, mean, Paul talks about consider joy to your brothers, right? That you experience trials of many kinds. Joy is such a hard word to say, but yeah, how can you find enjoyment in it? That's the way to leave yourself. Well, and then the next is like, OK, after it, learn to ask yourself hard questions. Learn to sit in front of peers or some or a mentor, somebody you respect and go, hey, this is what I went into. This is what happened. What do you see? How could I done it?

Cartwright Morris (30:58.183)
better, what could have been done differently, what am I missing, what are some of my blind spots? Right, just learn to ask those hard questions, that's a way to lead yourself well, it's just willing to add the hard questions and detach your ego from it. I think that's something core to this course, this program I'm putting together is like, okay, there's things fundamental who I am, therefore they do not change. This is my son who I'm well pleased.

right? Whom I love, who I'm well pleased. Like, we have to live from that place, living, we talk about living from rest, living from love. Okay, so therefore everything else becomes, can be a conversation, can be challenged, right? My actions can be challenged, you know? It can be, but it doesn't connect it to my identity.

That's the hard part in your 20s is every criticism, every feedback is this like attack on my identity as a man, as a person, as a professional, as a, right, I'm not gonna get a raise because you said that I messed up on this, right? It's just everything becomes, it's like no, pull back. It's like all right, who am I? All right, so therefore everything's open for conversation.

And then you can then receive feedback well. You because you're really just looking at the actions, your habits, even your mindsets, but the core identity of who you are is not changing. This is why I start with the faithful son, is start there, then move to other stuff. absolutely. You know? And once you realize that's settled, that's unchanging, that's connected to something.

eternal, everlasting, then you can start really getting feedback on all the others. Yeah, I guess it's easier to receive feedback when you're seeking it. Yeah. Or being proactively open to it, right? Oh my gosh. Yeah. Or always asking people, you know, whether people you work with, people you work for, people like Cartwright, hey, what could I have done better? Yeah. Right? And then logging that, writing it down. Yeah.

Cartwright Morris (33:12.333)
I've kept journals for a long time and I'm so glad I have because it's so cool to go back and see some of the stuff that like, you know, I was going through dealing with or whatever. then,

you know, try to attach a Bible verse to it or some sort of like something to activate my faith or self-reflect in a way. And then it's so cool to like in years, like I can go back and see like, you know, what we were going through during COVID. I can see what I was writing down and

So it's even, mean, I think, you know, in real time back then I was having these things that I was like really learning how to receive feedback and be proactive about receiving feedback and then implementing some of that feedback. but then it's funny cause you know, six years later you go back and read stuff and you're like, I need a refresher on that. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's a really good, it's not something that, that you learn and then you're good for the next 40 years. It's yeah. so like you said, lifelong learning, have to really be open.

So but I think that's a good practical step maybe even more than what I said of like hey Journaling is a good thing not everybody journals I get this sometimes but it's a good thing just just right because like you're saying you can go back and look at and go okay I've grown in that area. Yeah. that's somebody to pick back up And it's not like I think I mean, think journaling has a stigma. It's not poetic Yeah, you're not yes. That's probably the it's all it is is the value I've seen in it is

It allows me to when I'm writing stuff down really write down what's in my head and stay focused on that for just five minutes before I turn on SportsCenter. You know what I mean? like, you know what mean? It's like, I don't want that thought to passively go away into the cloud before it's on paper. And so I see the value in it because it's like, well, hold on. While I've got this, because I'm not the smartest guy, you know, it's like, while I've got this, let me put it down. You know what mean?

Cartwright Morris (35:13.183)
And then as you write stuff down, you'll see that God will kind of like peel back the layer and then you kind of...

you know, you can kind of build off of what you've written in a way, which is not, I don't have the ability to do that in my thought life as well. You know what mean? And, so take, like, take the result, the performance part off of it. Like you're not writing like Ernest Hemingway. You're not having, you're not having a famous actor narrate everything you're writing. It's brain dumps.

Yeah, so take the pressure off of it. It's like it could be bullet points could be just words. Yeah, yeah, and sometimes too I found that like My journaling will turn into I hate even say journaling when I write stuff down it turns into a prayer Yeah, and it's a prayer that I I Can really dissect and focus on yeah?

Does that make sense? 100%. It's like a prayer that I can like go back and read and like, and then it's cool because sometimes I'll go back and I don't even remember writing stuff down, but I'm like, oh, that's really, that's good. know what I mean? So anyway. That's good. Yeah. Journaling is good. There's a verse in, uh, I'm going to butcher it. I think it's in Habakkuk. If I said that right. You reference Habakkuk. Habakkuk.

Hey, well some call me an Old Testament scholar. No, no one does actually. No, but there's something about when you write stuff down it actually takes the angels see it and can then take it.

Cartwright Morris (36:54.341)
There's something to it. There's something to it. agree with that. And along with the processes and develop, you, oh, you nailed it. Yeah, that was really good. I'm going to get, um, cause also with praying, writing your prayers too. So that's another level of writing your prayers. Some, I talked about this some might well Friday even it's like the Jesus talked about the Pharisees. He quoted, it was quoting, I think Isaiah when he said you honor me with your lips, but, um, just like, but

Blasphemy or or man, I'm trying to remember the verse but dishonor me with your with your with your actions or your life, right? In our prayers, it could be interesting. We can almost be Dishonoring at our lips, but really when we're really speaking from the heart Basically in our frustrations and our disappointment can just write out our prayers to God of feeling to speak see David did this we can then be honoring with our hearts You dishonor me with your hearts

That's what it something like that Like that be more and real and authentic before God and there's something about writing it down that helps I do have one cat caveat without and I really want to this is maybe too much personal experience In my own life, but also it's some of the guys I've mentored when you ask for feedback Do not ask for feedback because that's what you're supposed to do, right? Because what ends up happening? Bo do you know what I'm going for this? You asked for feedback and then you

get feedback and then you interrupt somebody go wait wait but but I didn't that's you know I you give the caveat you give the if it's 70 % true if it's 20 % true receive it yeah take it take the truth don't try to then have revisionist history I did that but didn't do that it's like you know like well let me tell you more let me give you the whole scenario yeah let me tell you every piece is like like just just received the feedback yeah

Take the feedback.

Cartwright Morris (38:53.861)
Even if it's, you know, there's parts of it that's not right. Learn how to take feedback. And that's what I mean. Detach your ego. You don't, it doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have the perfect package, but learn how to receive it. And you can, it's something, you know, phrase that we use a lot. You have to learn how to use it in your life, especially if you want to become a good leader is chew the meat, spit out the bones. You got to take what's good and then learn to digest it and get rid of the stuff that don't matter.

There's zero value in filtering it against what you already think. Yes, because if you're asking for feedback you're wanting somebody else's perspective. You're not supposed to There's zero value and then taking that and then filtering it against what you already believe. What's the point? Yeah, because this is this is what I'm sure It's just like there's been hundreds of books thousands podcast episode of like in your 20s or if you want to step into leadership learn

how to receive feedback. Go get feedback in every area and it's like people follow that by the letter of the law but not in the spirit of it. If that, if y'all know the difference in that like they talk about that with the Constitution and interpreting laws like you went you fought you didn't follow the letter but you followed in spirit or vice versa. Yeah. It's like learning in the spirit of receiving feedback and receive it not just like in because you think

you you listen to John Maxwell say you should. Yeah, I was literally just going to say that. think that leadership a lot like you know we talk about journaling have a stigma. think leadership has its own stigma now because it's been so commercialized in a way. Is that the right word? Like it's just been commercialized to where

It's a hot topic and it's a cool thing to make content about and most of the content is really really good but you still have to like have the right mindset in implementing it not just consuming the content because if you just consume the content well then you're gonna know to ask for feedback you're not gonna know to like

Cartwright Morris (41:07.927)
I really here's the value in it. Here's the value. You know what mean? You're going to know to like be a servant leader. You know what mean? Like serving others by leading others, which is true, but like it has been stigmatized in a way. Right. And that's why I love reflective leader because I think it's a little bit unique in its name. And I think it encompasses all of those other things that you hear about servant leadership and all this other stuff that you hear about all the time. The reflective leader is like,

Now the core of all of this is that you reflect, learn, and then you lead with wisdom, right? And you can't learn and then lead with wisdom unless you are actively seeking to drop your ego at the door and really, really do this in practice. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so I think that's what I really like about this. It's much more practical than I think a lot of the other leadership content out there in a way. Because

You kind of get lost in the sauce with all the leadership stuff out there. mean, I talk about my dad on this podcast a lot. He's, um, he's retired. He's, he's old school, best guy I know. And, he, he, he mentioned this not long ago. He was like, man, he was like, you know, he's been working for 50, 40, 50 years. And he was like, man, I've never seen so many leadership experts that are in their early twenties. know what I mean? It's like, it's true. mean, you

I mean, there's all kinds of stuff out there and I think most of it is true. But there is something to like, you know, don't be an expert on the subject, man. Actually walk it out and see what you have to do.

Like you said, through the, you know, learn how to lose well. You know, don't just be an expert on the subject. Like get out there and take your lumps. I mean, say, yeah, a lot of this came from, I've just been, I've made the mistake or I've been let, like I've been in bad situations in organizations where you just had these types of leaders. I've just like, that's what I mean by when you're learning to be reflective and lead yourself, you're taking inventory of how you've been led and go,

Cartwright Morris (43:20.775)
Okay, most people go. Well, let me just do the opposite with that guy does like no that's not that's not being reflective right learn to go Okay, what is my leadership style? How would I handle that situation? Like that's something I think really learning to do it's like man I did not like how that guy handled it that way that's disappointing but you know, I'm not gonna be reactive and like I just got to be Reactive and passive is and being super nice and about it. Bo lost his camera We knew it was coming

Yeah Whoa, what was that?

Cartwright Morris (44:00.032)
my goodness. It must have hit the side. canceled it though. think it's Yeah, I think you're good. They may call back, but.

Cartwright Morris (44:16.118)
Mm-hmm.

Cartwright Morris (44:21.605)
Was it too far over? Close enough. enough. Slightly turn.

good. man. We got to figure out. We got to figure out something better than that. but yeah, man, there's something. Yeah. We, yeah. I love how you said, take your lumps, man. It's like, that's how you become a leader. It's there's there. You're right. We're so inundated with leadership content, leadership books, leadership podcasts, leadership conference. I'm not saying yeah, no, all of it's bad. Yeah, it's good. It's good. It's just, yeah, you were about to say it. going.

You may have to just hold it, Beau, towards the end. I think we're kind of closing out here. Dang, caught him again. Did it really?

from the side.

Cartwright Morris (45:13.509)
It's like two seconds to cancel it.

Maybe just what we have to do. man, that's not That's great. I can just zoom in.

Yeah man, I don't know, there's something too.

Sorry, I you off. You were talking about how there's so much content out there. Yeah, there's just value in taking your lumps, too. Just doing it. Yeah, like putting yourself in situations. I think it's going back to the eighth grade baseball or eight-year-old baseball stuff. It's like, learn. So this is stuff that I, because I'm creating leadership content. Is there something about leadership in structure and there's something about leadership within chaos? Learning. You have to

So therefore putting yourself in situations where that just feel out of your control. How do you respond?

Cartwright Morris (46:09.633)
not beating yourself up when you don't respond well and reflecting on it and getting better at it. So it's like putting your, taking the content that you're learning, whether it's on a podcast or in a book or from a conference, and then actually going and go, how do I actually apply this stuff? Well, I think that's what's different about your approach. think in a lot of the leadership stuff you see out here, which again, it's good stuff. I'm not poo-pooing on the leadership stuff. I'm really not. But it is, I think what I like about yours is

that the core piece of it is go out there and fail and learn from it.

You know what mean? Because I think a lot of the leadership stuff, it's giving you practical steps to lead well and to have people follow you and to love people and all that stuff. And that stuff is fantastic. But it doesn't talk about from what I could tell, hey, when you screw up, because you will, here's how you can ask for feedback and grow from it. And it's about the journey. not about being a, it's not about being a leadership expert. Yeah. It's about knowing how to lead.

Or learn from your respect so you can lead better as you go I think that's the difference in this curriculum versus some of the other stuff you see yeah I'm trying to build the foundational Who you are like?

stuff so that you can then go out in the world and kind of figure it, like manage it. Right. You know. That's the difference to me. Yeah. Because I feel like we are in our twenties and it's just like, oh, just do a plug and play, you know, just framework. And it's like, that's not how it works. That's not how life works. It's a little robotic. Yeah. It seems. I want an outside in approach versus like a...

Cartwright Morris (47:53.802)
Habit behavioral adjustment program, right? Yeah Which is it so I will ascend on this bow because I did mention this before we get started Found it on the gram, which I think I did put it posted on my story

on if you want to follow us on the to about the Navy SEAL thing? Yeah. Okay, I was about to ask that. Okay, yeah, yeah. Perfect. There's something in two about, so they did a study on Navy SEAL training and why some guys make it and some guys don't because both the ones who make it versus the ones who don't, both are very disciplined, strong-willed men, right? And...

So, but they ended up kind of figuring out something called, and they call it, I think it's a philosophical term, which I'm going to butcher it, but it's like identity based on automacity, like that, meaning the ones that don't make it.

though they're disciplined and strong willed, they're like, I hope I make it, or I hope I have what it takes to make it, or I'm gonna try to make it. Where the people that, the men that make it all have this common thing of identity-based automacity where they say, I am the guy who makes it. I am the guy who doesn't quit. I'm just, that's who I am. It's like, so when we...

Getting you know, I guess a way to wrap this up is learning like we live especially in our 20s were so inundated That's where going back to the content thing. I'm sorry. I'm hitting on this but it's so about behavior modification How do I get that girl? I gotta look like this guy How do I get that raised? Well, I got to make sure they see what I'm doing You know, it's a you end up ends up being more about politics than actual effort You know in actual value really the end of day you're want to be adding value

Cartwright Morris (49:45.864)
you to others whether it's in your a romantic relationship or in your business relationship and that starts from being this is who I am I don't care how they react I don't care how they respond this is who I am and learning to become that guy

That guy, that's the forging process. That is what matters. It's where you're stand before God and feel some level of confidence. Like, Lord, I stood on who you said I am, not on some, I didn't dress it up into some type of behavior modification plan, because I read...

You know, Jim, every Jim Collins book, every Simon Sinek book, every John Maxwell. And I went to this conference. I went to that conference. I listened to podcasts that I, you know, everyone gave me a pat on the back because I, you know, it's like, that's just exhausting, man. So it's an exhaust. Let me just say it's an exhausting lifestyle. That's a, that's a life to toward midlife crisis, having shallow relationships. Be a guy that this is who I am no matter what, no matter what the result is.

Anyway.

That's great. Yeah. And then obviously the natural and how you built the framework, it builds on itself to be this guy is one faithful son, offensive servant and the today reflective leader. um, which we'll get into some of what I just ended on in the next two for sure. Yeah. And then we still have G and E, right? how you spell it. Perfect. think that's a hard word to spell. It's a little weird. It's French.

Cartwright Morris (51:25.715)
It's uh, It's the fudge. Yeah, it's kind of weird. But, uh, nah, this is great, man. I'm so excited. Really pumped about that group, Yeah, man. Yeah. I mean, it's probably going to be too late. mean, I'd be...

can't remember when I'm going to post this. It could be next week we post, I post this, but still can join. You'll miss the first week, but yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, but also I'm laying this all out in August. So this will be a more comprehensive. I don't want to say intensive, but it's a comprehensive thing. That's just going to be ongoing that you can join at any point anyway, cause it's just, it's what I really wish I needed to hear. It's like more and more I'm getting this point, Beau. This was great.

great men's conference my church and the speaker was great about this it's like it's like men we're so it's so it's like it's this constant thing we're not doing enough it's that message that you know constantly doing you got to show up more do more you know be this guy do that behavior modification stuff and it's like we we need more and more permission from other men especially men gone before us of just like you're good just keep going keep showing up keep you know it's like there's permission

One thing he said that was interesting, and this is not for everybody, but I'll say a personal thing, he said, I think metrics are evil. He had a whole message, one of the messages, was four sessions, and he had a message on just play. This development of men's brains and creativity and the bonding of relationships comes from men.

go hang out and do fun stuff. And it's like, oh. But we've lived in a society, we're not allowed to do that.

Cartwright Morris (53:20.591)
You got to be more serious. You got to get serious about your life. You got to do this. But it's like our relationships are not. And therefore men's mental health, you're seeing depression, suicide, all sorts of stuff. Just, well, I shouldn't say going down, it's going up, right? Then the mental health parts plummeting is because we don't have this concept of just with other men, that bonding, whether it's exercise, playing golf, playing athletics or playing cards or whatever you're into of just with other men that, that

There's no specific result. We don't need a metric. You know, we don't need a KPI or how many steps did you walk or are you lifting more than you did a month ago? Like all that nonsense. It's just like how you know, we need that especially as you get older in your 20s. You're fine. That's what's interesting about your 20s and early 30s is you're starting to realize, life is not college. I don't have this natural community always around me that's being created for me.

I have to go find it. And so like you start realizing like, man, I need other men in my life and I have to go get it. You know, and so like there's something about finding a group of men, not just, you know, one getting in the Bible and having accountability and you bouncing really like life stuff, living life alone, but also just fun. anyway, and I feel like the, the giving you guys permission to do that is so key. And hopefully as we continue to go through this, it's like the permission to just go,

Yeah, I don't have to read the next book comes out. have to read, listen to the next pot. Have to. Oh, you gotta do that. know? It's like, man. Anyway. Yeah, I love it. Yeah. All right. Is that it? Yeah. You got anything else, No, that's good. Perfect. All right.