The Creating Belonging Podcast
In the book, Creating Belonging: A Practical Guide to Accelerate Belonging in Organizations and Communities, Justin Reinert describes a model where belonging sits at the intersection of authenticity and acceptance. In The Creating Belonging Podcast, host Justin Reinert will continue the conversation of creating belonging by discussing others' experiences when they've been at various levels of authenticity and acceptance in their communities. Our goal with this podcast will be to help others find new paths to belonging in their communities.
The Creating Belonging Podcast
What's in a name?
Let us know what you think of this podcast!
It wasn't until after he moved to a new country and others started asking how to pronounce his name that Michal realized others might find it important. In the first portion, we talk about respectful pronunciation of names, and if we can extend this respectful use to names - why not pronouns as well?
When it comes to team building, some think the pub is the place to be. But that's not the best place for everyone. In the second portion, we talk about creating belonging through team building that isn't just drinking the night away.
You can order your copy of Creating Belonging on Amazon.
Music:
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Creative Commons / Attribution 3.0 Unported License (CC BY 3.0)
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00:00:13 Justin
Welcome to the creating belonging podcast.
00:00:17 Justin
Today I'm recording our first guest episode and I'm really excited that I have Michael Augustini.
00:00:24 Justin
Michael is what I would say, one of the hottest up and coming photographers in London.
00:00:30 Justin
Right now, so look out for Michael Augustini in in London and his photography.
00:00:36 Justin
But Michael, if you wouldn't mind, just introduce yourself in your words.
00:00:42 Michal
OK, OK.
00:00:43 Michal
Hello everybody.
00:00:44 Michal
My name is Michael.
00:00:45 Michal
I'm a freelance photographer and music photographer.
00:00:48 Michal
Currently very proud.
00:00:49 Michal
To say that because.
00:00:51 Michal
It's been just about a year that I've been.
00:00:54 Michal
Doing this full time.
00:00:55 Justin
Michael, it's awesome to have you here.
00:00:57 Justin
Thank you for agreeing to be my first guest on the Creating belonging podcast.
00:01:02 Justin
And before we get into the hot topic of the day, which is creating belonging, I want to make sure that people can follow you on Instagram and see your amazing work.
00:01:11 Justin
So how can people find you?
00:01:14 Michal
So my handle is augustini dot photo, AUGUSTINI dot photo easy and my website the same thing and just just do, you know, make things more exciting.
00:01:25 Michal
I'll be releasing my first debut book in a couple of days, slash maybe a week, so this will be coming out so definitely.
00:01:35 Michal
Check it out.
00:01:35 Michal
That will be announcing everything on Instagram and selling to my web.
00:01:38 Justin
Yeah, yeah, I'm so.
00:01:40 Justin
I'm excited to see it.
00:01:41 Justin
I'm I I know we saw the preview a few weeks back when we're in a meeting, so I'm excited.
00:01:48 Justin
Excited to see the the real thing awesome.
00:01:52 Justin
Well, I wanted Michael to join us on the creating blogging podcast.
00:01:56 Justin
I've known Michael for.
00:01:58 Justin
A handful of years we've worked together and I know that.
00:02:03 Justin
So Michael grew up in Slovakia and then moved to London.
00:02:12 Justin
What, seven years?
00:02:13
To go.
00:02:14 Michal
Was it? Yeah, two 2015.
00:02:17 Justin
When I knew Michael, he had been working for an American based company, albeit global American based company living in London.
00:02:25 Justin
As you know, native of Slovakia, so you know when we when we talk about belonging.
00:02:34 Justin
I had a feeling that Michael might have some interesting stories.
00:02:38 Justin
You know, kind of in all that intersectionality of of his identity brings into these different spaces and community.
00:02:44 Justin
And one thing I'm going to jump right into what is kind of my favorite story that we had talked about, which is your name.
00:02:53 Justin
So your name spelled MICHA.
00:02:55 Justin
Li, remember when we met there was discussion like, oh, does he go by Michael when Michael and and then I remember asking.
00:03:04 Justin
You and you're like.
00:03:05 Justin
But it doesn't doesn't bother me like whichever and I found that interesting because a lot of people get very can be very protective of the pronunciation of their name.
00:03:14 Justin
Right.
00:03:15 Justin
And and so I found that interesting.
00:03:18 Justin
And then you eventually told me a story and I'm not gonna.
00:03:20 Justin
I'm not gonna repeat it, but the reason I bring it up is because I think about our names just to give some kind of relation to belonging in this.
00:03:29 Justin
I think about our names is like one of the things that is like our signature stamp on our identity.
00:03:35 Justin
Because we talk about identity in relation to belonging and I think our name is like that stamp.
00:03:41 Justin
It's like the number one thing that is us, it's what people call us on a regular basis.
00:03:44 Justin
I wanna hear your story about kind of growing up and the way that you just name pronunciation and then.
00:03:51 Justin
Even some of the stuff that I think we talked about name pronunciation in.
00:03:54
Yeah, yeah.
00:03:56 Michal
In Slovakia.
00:03:57 Michal
Yeah. Yeah, so.
00:03:58 Michal
So interesting fact is that.
00:04:01 Michal
When I came to London, so many people out of respect immediately were asking me, like, what's how do you pronounce your name?
00:04:09 Michal
And I always introduce myself in English.
00:04:11 Michal
I'm Michael, and I've never really thought about it.
00:04:15 Michal
Like I didn't give it.
00:04:16 Michal
A second thought at all, but some people were.
00:04:19 Michal
Like but it's not.
00:04:19 Michal
Spelled correctly, right?
00:04:21 Michal
Like Michael is with E and that your name is different.
00:04:24 Michal
So how do you pronounce it?
00:04:26 Michal
And I was really hesitant many times to tell people because the pronunciation of my name in different language, just it's for people.
00:04:33 Michal
It's hard to pronounce my pronunciation of name is Michael, and it's like it's kind of common name.
00:04:40 Michal
But The thing is.
00:04:40 Michal
That not that many people call me Michael in in Slovakia because.
00:04:47 Michal
Things like we have the.
00:04:49 Michal
Nearly each name, not all of them, but.
00:04:51 Michal
My name is specific like that.
00:04:53 Michal
And has three different versions.
00:04:56 Michal
So the neutral 1 Michael.
00:04:58 Michal
Which is on my, you know.
00:05:00 Michal
On a birth certificate, right?
00:05:02 Michal
But my mom would call me.
00:05:04 Michal
Mishka, which is.
00:05:05 Michal
Like a tiny like, imagine like a softer name.
00:05:08 Michal
Is Mishka's girlfriend would call you Mishka and then people will call you if you're if you're little right they.
00:05:15 Michal
Will call you.
00:05:15 Michal
Mishko and and your friends on the other hand, would like choose a tougher name so tougher.
00:05:21 Michal
Version of Michael is Michelle.
00:05:23 Michal
So it's again.
00:05:24 Michal
So it's Mishka, Michael.
00:05:27 Michal
So these are the.
00:05:27 Michal
Three names I.
00:05:28 Michal
Grew up having right.
00:05:29 Michal
I knew Michael the names.
00:05:31 Michal
Not that many people would call me that.
00:05:33 Michal
It would be either Misha or Mishka.
00:05:35 Michal
If my mum used Misha, which is a tough, tough thing, I.
00:05:39 Michal
Knew that I did something naughty or something.
00:05:41 Michal
Like that, you know.
00:05:42 Michal
Like that put you on on like.
00:05:44 Michal
My mom is calling me.
00:05:45 Michal
Like that and.
00:05:46 Michal
She really hated when, you know my friends came and rang the bell and said hey, is Misha at home.
00:05:53 Michal
And my mom.
00:05:53 Michal
Hated that, because.
00:05:54 Michal
She doesn't like the tougher version of my name.
00:05:57 Michal
And there are most of.
00:05:58 Michal
The names in Slovakia have those like a.
00:06:00 Michal
Softer version and harder version.
00:06:02 Michal
There are just a few of them that doesn't or you know, it's cool.
00:06:06 Michal
When we were when we were young kids learning English and we're being taught like, OK, the the basic sentences.
00:06:13 Michal
So what's your name?
00:06:14 Michal
My name is and you say your name.
00:06:17 Michal
The teachers in Slovakia would would kind of transfer your name to English, right?
00:06:22 Michal
So a name like Michael would be Michael name like Thomas, Slovakia name would be Tom Martin with Martin.
00:06:30 Michal
But like you know, some of the versions will be slightly different.
00:06:34 Michal
George, you know it will be Yuri and.
00:06:37 Michal
In in English would be George, so everybody at school when we when we entered the English classroom, it would be, you know, you are pronouncing your name as an English speaking person.
00:06:48 Michal
So my name every time when I would be using English language would be Michael.
00:06:53 Michal
So everywhere I went internationally would be like hey.
00:06:57 Michal
My name is Michael.
00:06:58 Michal
I would never.
00:06:58 Michal
Even put it into my mouth that I would.
00:07:00 Michal
Say hi, my name is.
00:07:01 Michal
Michael and it's.
00:07:03 Michal
It just doesn't sound.
00:07:04 Michal
Natural to me.
00:07:06 Michal
So yeah, this is how I this is how I present in myself or always will probably present myself and.
00:07:13 Michal
People were very.
00:07:14 Michal
Curious about that?
00:07:15 Michal
And then I thought about the history.
00:07:16 Michal
Why I'm saying that because some people are like, but that's not your name.
00:07:20 Justin
OK, so random thoughts.
00:07:22 Justin
What if someone called you Mike?
00:07:25 Michal
Well, that's fine.
00:07:25 Michal
Yeah, I have people who call me Mike.
00:07:27 Michal
Yeah, most like American people.
00:07:27 Justin
Oh really?
00:07:28 Michal
Yeah, yeah.
00:07:29 Michal
Some some American folks would call me.
00:07:31 Michal
Hey, Mike.
00:07:32 Justin
Oh, wow.
00:07:32 Justin
So like no consent, just like decided to shorten your name.
00:07:36 Michal
Uh, I mean, I'm not.
00:07:38 Michal
Sure, if there was a be.
00:07:39 Michal
Probably there was this.
00:07:41 Michal
Discussion when I said.
00:07:42 Michal
You call me whatever you want.
00:07:43 Michal
And he was like, is it OK if I called Mike and was like there enough, you know?
00:07:47 Michal
So I know every time Nick spoke to me, he's like.
00:07:50 Michal
Hey Mike, I was like, OK.
00:07:55 Justin
So I don't know why, I just I found that fascinating.
00:07:59 Justin
You know, in the the fluidity of acceptance that you have around the way that people pronounce your name and and it's when I've thought about it.
00:08:08 Justin
I I almost like think of it as this gift that your instructors gave you when you were younger.
00:08:16 Justin
You know, giving you that fluidity of the pronunciation of your name so that you didn't have this defense mechanism come up right?
00:08:23 Justin
Like, hey, I'm just gonna go by whatever and it's.
00:08:26 Justin
And, you know, it's cool.
00:08:28 Justin
You know, as long as it's not.
00:08:29 Justin
Offensive, right?
00:08:30 Michal
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:08:31 Michal
But I have to.
00:08:32 Michal
I have to say like on the.
00:08:33 Michal
Other hand it made.
00:08:34 Michal
Me really be.
00:08:36 Michal
Self-conscious when I would be speaking to, you know, like coming to London and and and feeling that respect from others asking me would my name is for how my name is pronounced.
00:08:48 Michal
And stuff so.
00:08:50 Michal
Then I would be more and more.
00:08:51 Michal
And more conscious.
00:08:52 Michal
Of how others?
00:08:53 Michal
Because I really haven't.
00:08:55 Michal
Thought of like like I don't care kind of thing.
00:08:57 Michal
But then I realized people really do.
00:09:00 Michal
Care. So I started caring.
00:09:02 Michal
More about different names, different nationalities, you know.
00:09:05 Michal
When something is.
00:09:06 Michal
Spelled the way that you're.
00:09:08 Michal
Like oh, I have no idea how to pronounce that.
00:09:10 Michal
I would have the courtesy of like, hey, can you tell me how to how to really pronounce it and really make the effort to to?
00:09:16
OK.
00:09:16 Michal
Because I I see that this.
00:09:18 Michal
Is important for people and and not everyone is like me that like I don't care.
00:09:22 Justin
When I almost see it, I'm going to transition a little bit and we'll philosophize.
00:09:27 Justin
I almost see it as related to, you know, gender and pronoun usage because so so often we assume usage of pronouns, and we assume based on various things, right?
00:09:33
MHM, MHM.
00:09:43 Justin
I know of, you know, an individual who I used to work with and.
00:09:48 Justin
Her name was Jordan.
00:09:51 Justin
But because Jordan's probably more typically are people more used to Jordan being a male name or a masculine name that you know, she would often be called he in emails and so.
00:10:03 Justin
She she actually.
00:10:04 Justin
She was using pronouns in her signature line before.
00:10:08 Justin
It was like in vogue or recognized.
00:10:10 Justin
Just because for herself, she wanted to clarify, you know.
00:10:14 Michal
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:10:16 Justin
And so it's interesting how, you know, there's the, the conversation around pronoun usage being like, so a part of quote, woke culture being respectful.
00:10:25
I think it's very useful.
00:10:27 Michal
That thing is very useful that that.
00:10:29 Michal
The people use that.
00:10:30 Justin
So it's it's interesting, you know, heightening that awareness that you have of like checking in with people on pronunciation of their name, you can be similar and as respectful as as checking in on someone's preferred pronouns, right.
00:10:44 Michal
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
00:10:46 Michal
And it's it's really, I think it's essential these days to to have that because somebody's.
00:10:53 Michal
Identity is built on that.
00:10:54 Justin
It's good to.
00:10:55 Justin
Check in with people and call people.
00:10:57 Justin
Be respectful and call people what?
00:10:58 Justin
They want to be called.
00:10:59
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
00:11:04 Justin
I want to transition a little bit and I want to see if I can get another story out of you.
00:11:09 Michal
Was there?
00:11:10 Justin
You know, we talked about the creating belonging model.
00:11:13 Justin
So in the first episode, I outlined the creating belonging model that exists in.
00:11:19 Justin
My book we've got.
00:11:20 Justin
Essentially belonging sitting at the intersection of authenticity and acceptance.
00:11:25 Justin
And then we've got our four areas within the creating belonging model.
00:11:30 Justin
So when we're low on authenticity, low on acceptance, we're in recla.
00:11:34 Justin
High on authenticity, low on acceptance, we're in overbearing.
00:11:38 Justin
If we're high on acceptance, low on authenticity, we're in minimizing.
00:11:43 Justin
And then when we're high on authenticity, high on acceptance, we're in belonging and one of the things I prompted you with before today was, hey, what other stories?
00:11:53 Justin
When you think of that, you might have sitting in one of those areas of the creating belonging model.
00:12:00 Justin
So I'm curious what, what other?
00:12:05 Justin
Experiences in life can you think of?
00:12:07 Michal
Coming to London, coming to London as a as a Slovakia and coming to the workplace and trying to find my my place.
00:12:16 Michal
I would say in a workplace and it's always like a bit of a tricky situation, at least for me, because I find myself most of the time like.
00:12:24 Michal
An odd person.
00:12:25 Michal
Like to not the mainstream person.
00:12:27 Michal
If you see what I mean, like.
00:12:29 Michal
Generally, when I when I joined the company in London, I remember coming to the office and I did not have like the, you know, suddenly start feeling the vibe of the office.
00:12:41 Michal
Right like.
00:12:41 Michal
And one of the main things in in the office was sports football, like UK, right, football, what's your team?
00:12:49 Michal
We were fat like I was.
00:12:51 Michal
No idea are you Arsenal?
00:12:54 Michal
Are you telling them?
00:12:55 Michal
Are you?
00:12:55 Michal
Did this?
00:12:56 Michal
I was like.
00:12:56 Michal
I'm not in football and you know my question back.
00:12:59 Michal
It's like what?
00:13:00 Michal
Kind of music.
00:13:01 Michal
Do you listen to?
00:13:01 Michal
And they were like, ohh yeah, all sorts blah blah.
00:13:04 Michal
I was like, what kind of concerts did you go to?
00:13:06 Michal
Not that many people went to concert.
00:13:08 Michal
So I found myself in this kind of.
00:13:10 Michal
Hot spot where most of the people were, you know, following sports following these things and you want to try to kind of.
00:13:18 Michal
Belong right.
00:13:19 Michal
You try to kind of merge into that to trying to find these things, but I remember that.
00:13:24 Michal
On my first.
00:13:26 Michal
Lunch on the first day where everybody.
00:13:28 Michal
Was there and I was like, OK, we.
00:13:30 Michal
Have this football club going on, we're all playing football and.
00:13:33 Michal
I was like, great and.
00:13:36
Good for you.
00:13:37 Michal
Guys you know, and they were all expecting me to be like, yeah, yeah, let's play football like, Nope, thank you.
00:13:43 Michal
But I found myself belonging to that.
00:13:46 Michal
Group of you know yoga classes and at work you.
00:13:49 Michal
Know it was.
00:13:50 Michal
It was very.
00:13:50 Michal
Very different too.
00:13:53 Michal
To the kind of mainstream everyone in the office.
00:13:56 Michal
What they were, what they were doing and.
00:13:59 Michal
Sometimes I found.
00:14:00 Michal
It's a little bit.
00:14:01 Michal
Difficult, but not that you know.
00:14:04 Michal
And that was like, you know what?
00:14:05 Michal
I need to find my tribe somewhere else.
00:14:07 Michal
Work is work.
00:14:09 Michal
I I work in the in this environment I get along with people.
00:14:12 Michal
This is not about if I like football or not.
00:14:15 Michal
It's about the work we're doing.
00:14:16 Justin
You started working with that organization four years before I, before we worked together and.
00:14:23 Justin
And so I think it was a very different environment at that point in time.
00:14:27 Justin
I'm curious.
00:14:30 Justin
So where would you say like?
00:14:32 Justin
Yeah, at work, because I think a lot of the conversations are listeners are probably looking for is is some of the those work related like how do we create more belonging at work.
00:14:43 Justin
So if you were to think about where you sat in that moment, the way that you described it, like high or low on authenticity, high or low, on acceptance.
00:14:52 Justin
To then kind of plot yourself.
00:14:53 Justin
Where would you say you?
00:14:55 Michal
I I think I think.
00:14:56 Michal
It was I I never hidden my authenticity.
00:14:59 Michal
I would say, you know, I was authentic, but it definitely was.
00:15:06 Michal
You know, kind of kind of.
00:15:09 Michal
I was playing the other people.
00:15:10 Michal
's game.
00:15:11 Michal
So if if they were talking.
00:15:12 Michal
About football, I I started to.
00:15:15 Michal
I started to kind of be interested in not, not necessarily football, but I wouldn't be like ohh tell me more or what is it?
00:15:21 Michal
And you know, so try to be interested in others and how they what, what the tribe was about.
00:15:27 Michal
But I knew I'm not interested in.
00:15:29 Michal
Specifically football, where I be like I was interested in, OK, why are you having this conversation?
00:15:34 Michal
Who is who you trying to get to know other people?
00:15:38 Michal
So you're.
00:15:38 Michal
I'm always curious, asking questions about that.
00:15:41 Michal
So that this is this is where this is where I found myself.
00:15:44 Michal
But like another example that.
00:15:46 Michal
I can think of and.
00:15:47 Michal
I guess that's that's a really interesting conversation to to compare with with your experience as well.
00:15:55 Michal
But I remember when I came to London, I made it like a life decision that I.
00:15:58 Michal
Will stop drinking.
00:16:00 Michal
I will stop house alcohol.
00:16:03 Michal
Several reasons, health reasons.
00:16:04 Michal
And stuff like.
00:16:05 Michal
That but the what is the best way?
00:16:07 Michal
How to get to?
00:16:08 Michal
Know your colleagues.
00:16:09 Michal
You have to go out and.
00:16:11 Michal
Drink right that there's.
00:16:13 Michal
That's the kind of like, norm, everywhere I feel.
00:16:16 Michal
I feel like specifically UK or in Slovakia, you know, everybody goes out, has a beer and stuff.
00:16:22 Michal
And I would, I would definitely be at the bar ordering soda and lime just to pretend I'm drinking gin and tonic.
00:16:31 Michal
'cause, I didn't want to have the conversation of why are you not drinking?
00:16:35 Michal
Because I had those conversations so many times that at the beginning when I came here and they're like, oh, my God, why aren't.
00:16:41 Michal
You drinking? Why you didn't?
00:16:42 Michal
It's just.
00:16:44 Michal
I don't care.
00:16:45 Michal
Like, why are you so interested if I'm drinking or not?
00:16:47 Michal
And especially?
00:16:48 Michal
When you're going.
00:16:49 Michal
Out at work occasions and people were getting sorry for the for the thing, the shitface right.
00:16:55 Michal
Like the company company expenses something but so this is where I found myself that I was hiding my identity.
00:17:04 Michal
I was many times not presenting who I was because it just it just becomes like an unnecessary conversation.
00:17:13 Michal
But many times I have to say then more and more, get confident about it.
00:17:17 Michal
I was just like, I'm not drinking.
00:17:18 Michal
That's it, dot.
00:17:19 Michal
Like, I don't need to explain.
00:17:21 Michal
Myself to people you know like.
00:17:23 Michal
So that I would say was one of the one of the aspects where I felt like I was just trying to kind of belong.
00:17:30 Michal
But I had to kind of fake, you know, that I'm holding a different drink that I that that I was holding.
00:17:37 Justin
You know, it's an interesting one.
00:17:38 Justin
I I a while back worked for a UK based company.
00:17:45 Justin
And so like I can I can confirm the drinking culture is real.
00:17:52 Justin
And it, you know, it's an interesting dynamic because I the the balance of like I don't want to tell people like, hey, look, you can't drink, you can't go out, you can't do what you enjoy, but also in the work in the context of work in like, how are you making sure that others are comfortable and feel like they belong in that moment.
00:18:15 Justin
In in that place, you know it's.
00:18:17 Justin
It's an interesting shift because I I'm assuming that in general you'd be comfortable going out to the pub.
00:18:25 Justin
It shifts when like what are you drinking?
00:18:28 Justin
Why aren't you drinking?
00:18:29 Justin
I'm now going to interrogate you about your drinking habits.
00:18:35 Michal
Yeah, yeah, that's what I loved.
00:18:37 Michal
The you know, when we when we even.
00:18:39 Michal
Spoke about like team building.
00:18:41 Michal
Activities I don't find like team building going.
00:18:44 Michal
Out to like.
00:18:45 Michal
To a bar and having an open open check there.
00:18:48 Michal
I don't find this as a as a team building activity.
00:18:51 Michal
I I don't.
00:18:52 Michal
I literally like from a professional standpoint of view and you know we like we.
00:18:56 Michal
Always found like activities that would include everyone that would.
00:19:01 Michal
Somehow go for for for the fact that not everybody needs to drink or not everybody needs to be the the person who wants to go out and having the activity.
00:19:11 Michal
At the bar or something, right?
00:19:12 Michal
So it's always finding what is the, what is the right activity.
00:19:16 Michal
So you can include everyone in there if you can create small groups and and do it at.
00:19:21 Michal
At work and and find some really good activities that are connecting people rather than just like, yeah, go ahead and it will sort itself out.
00:19:30 Michal
Like like people will just bond.
00:19:32 Michal
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:33 Michal
But then next day, you come to work and you see like, yeah, 10 people bonded.
00:19:38 Michal
But the other fifty around didn't because.
00:19:41 Michal
They had to leave because.
00:19:42 Michal
Of kids or or they you.
00:19:44 Michal
Know like all sort of.
00:19:45 Michal
Things, but then you can see how the how the.
00:19:47 Michal
Kind of groups where were created.
00:19:50 Michal
At work that you were.
00:19:51 Michal
Like, OK, These are the buddies.
00:19:53 Michal
This is the core group or these are the?
00:19:55 Michal
Old people who were there for ages.
00:19:57 Michal
If you didn't go with what they were interested in or what they were doing then, then you were not included in that club.
00:20:05 Justin
And I think it's, you know, a lot of the the what we have to think about is the.
00:20:10 Justin
The difference between a sanctioned work event.
00:20:13 Justin
You know, like this is team building.
00:20:15 Justin
This is how we will get to know each other versus like a few people.
00:20:19 Justin
From work going.
00:20:20 Justin
Out and have it, you know, like having a social life outside of work with coworkers, right?
00:20:27 Justin
And then you know, depending on what that relationship is at work, the power, you know, power, power dynamics with those people.
00:20:34 Justin
Whether that's appropriate or inappropriate, but it's it's definitely something I think to think about.
00:20:39 Justin
You know, I I talk about in the book my story about belonging is, and I talked about it in the opening episode.
00:20:46 Justin
So this is a great segue from the.
00:20:49 Justin
In designing events, designing spaces where everyone feels welcome and like it was made for them, I think that's when we.
00:21:00 Michal
Hmm hmm.
00:21:01 Justin
When we really pushed to the height of belonging for folks because it sounds like on the average day you weren't like deep in recluse because you felt like you could show up as yourself and you weren't an overbearing because you weren't kind of like disrespecting others or you know.
00:21:21 Justin
Applying your values to them.
00:21:25 Justin
And then conversely, you weren't minimizing because you were attempting to engage, at least on the surface level and things that they were interested in, right?
00:21:31
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:32 Justin
So it's like it's it.
00:21:34 Justin
What I'm thinking of.
00:21:35 Justin
I had a conversation with someone yesterday and they were struggling with the creating belonging model because they're like, well, isn't there kind of like a spectrum like?
00:21:45 Justin
I'm not just all recluse or I'm not all overbearing, and I agree with you like we're not 100% anything, ever. So you know, it sounds like you were like in the.
00:21:57 Justin
In the middle, you know up into belonging, not like super high and belonging, but like not in.
00:22:02 Justin
A bad place.
00:22:04 Michal
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:05 Michal
And and I think.
00:22:06 Michal
It's also if you.
00:22:07 Michal
Look at it through timeline.
00:22:09 Michal
I would say it changes a lot.
00:22:10 Michal
You know you going.
00:22:11 Michal
Through I I visualize it as.
00:22:13 Michal
You're going through stages or you can go through one stage, you.
00:22:16 Michal
Go into another and so.
00:22:18 Michal
On I think the.
00:22:19 Michal
Problem is when you get stuck in one.
00:22:22 Justin
I I've always experienced he was very authentic and very open and honest and appreciate that.
00:22:28 Justin
And I think to your your comments about it shift you know the that belonging shifting or changing.
00:22:35 Justin
I think if we relate it to team development and we understand that when a team changes when they add people, when they lose people, the dynamics of that, that team has to go back to the beginning and go back through those stages of.
00:22:47 Justin
Development and there's probably.
00:22:49 Justin
I don't know.
00:22:50 Justin
I love the conversation thinking about belonging, because there's probably also an impact too.
00:22:54 Justin
But where we sit in the creating belonging model when the dynamics of the group change.
00:22:58 Justin
So I can think of if I reflect on our experience together, when I joined the organization that we worked in, you know you had been through multiple iterations of that organization.
00:23:09 Justin
And I can even see an evolution of, you know, when it comes to work, product quality of work, tire team was remote.
00:23:19 Justin
Sitting in different, literally different parts of the world, and I can almost see an.
00:23:23 Justin
Evolution of you?
00:23:25 Justin
In our work together and kind of seeing where you sit in.
00:23:30 Justin
You know, leaning back into that belonging, at least within our immediate team, I'm curious if you feel that or what your thoughts are?
00:23:39 Michal
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I always felt that it was very inclusive and and especially in our in our team we had.
00:23:48 Michal
Through the open conversation.
00:23:50 Michal
So we knew everybody's was different in in ways and respected that.
00:23:56 Michal
I remember we had a colleague who was more, you know, quiet but I.
00:23:59 Michal
I'm talkative a lot, you know, so I in my head.
00:24:03 Michal
I was like, OK.
00:24:04 Michal
Just hold on a second.
00:24:05 Michal
Give the space to others so.
00:24:06 Michal
That we are a team, right?
00:24:08 Michal
Like we, you and I, we could.
00:24:10 Michal
Chat for hours.
00:24:11 Michal
Right.
00:24:12 Michal
And there were people who would.
00:24:13 Michal
Just be listening on mute, you know, and.
00:24:16 Michal
They're like, OK, OK, let's.
00:24:17 Michal
So let's give them the the, the, the spotlight.
00:24:20 Michal
For for bed.
00:24:21 Michal
I had to like consciously make that but.
00:24:23 Michal
It's it's all.
00:24:24 Michal
About awareness, right awareness about there's awareness of others needs and being very respectful and and I felt that that respect was there.
00:24:33 Justin
So number one, I swear that this podcast is not just like a celebration of the teams that I've work.
00:24:40 Justin
For everyone, but what I would say what's interesting about that team in particular, because there was I think the fact that regardless of the pandemic, we would have been remote anyway.
00:24:55 Justin
But then, you know, lay the pandemic on top of that and and.
00:24:58 Justin
For a lot of the time that we work together and it almost seems like where some people think that remote work makes belonging in team building harder.
00:25:09 Justin
I almost felt like in our case, because we were all very different, like, I genuinely enjoy hanging out with everyone on the team, but I also I think it would be very different if we were all Co located, right?
00:25:22 Justin
Because we are so different that we would still like.
00:25:26 Justin
Yeah, I don't know.
00:25:27 Justin
Like it would be different.
00:25:28 Justin
So anyway, I'm just I like, it's this, this recognition that I have that when done right creating belonging in teams can actually be helped by that distance.
00:25:42 Michal
In some ways, definitely.
00:25:44 Michal
And I would like on the flip coin, I would say that it can, depending on the mix of the team, right, we were we were one mix of the team, but I can't imagine that in other teams it might be the right opposite.
00:25:56 Justin
So I think the moral of the story is whether in person or virtual, there are elements that can.
00:26:03 Justin
Promote belonging or an elements that can destroy belonging.
00:26:06 Justin
It's it's understanding the environment that you're working in and then also being conscious to intentional.
00:26:12 Justin
I use the word intentional, so much being intentional about what we're creating within those teams.
00:26:18 Michal
Also, if I may add just one.
00:26:20 Michal
Thing that I remember when we were doing the insights discovery thing right?
00:26:25 Michal
Like when we when we discovered our teams colors, right?
00:26:30 Michal
It gives you.
00:26:31 Michal
I'm a visual person, gave.
00:26:33 Michal
Me so much sense and I'd.
00:26:34 Michal
Be like, OK.
00:26:35 Michal
This person, blue energy.
00:26:37 Michal
This person green energy.
00:26:38 Michal
This person, yeah, we have.
00:26:39 Michal
The same, so suddenly you understood the mix, at least for me, it was like an eye opening thing of like.
00:26:45 Michal
I had a feeling about these things, but when you are remote and you just have chats for an hour with someone, you don't necessarily know everything but those.
00:26:54 Michal
Those tools are very helpful to then understand that.
00:26:58 Michal
Mix because you'll.
00:26:58 Michal
Be like, oh, somebody is more analytical, somebody is more probably introverted or focused, focused on details.
00:27:04 Michal
Blah blah so.
00:27:05 Michal
Certainly like, OK.
00:27:06 Michal
You can respect that person in that way and and give them the opportunity to shine in their in different situations that you would normally do if.
00:27:13 Michal
You did not have that information.
00:27:15 Justin
I love those types of assessments and I think there's some people love them.
00:27:18 Justin
Some people hate them, some people are in the middle and I think that.
00:27:22 Justin
You know, as long as we understand that we are more than a set of four colors or one color, we're more than that and we're more than what can be described in some descriptive profile.
00:27:34 Justin
When we understand that, but we use them as a tool to understand our differences and to be able to appreciate those differences.
00:27:42 Justin
And how we show up, I I love insights.
00:27:46 Justin
Discovery is absolutely my favorite tool of all of those, but I think they all have their merits.
00:27:53 Justin
And you know, I think I'm I'm biased because I've been facilitating insights discovery for several years.
00:27:59 Michal
Yeah, but any I guess it's it's about it's like a tool, right?
00:28:03 Michal
Like it's it's not revealing any super secrets.
00:28:07 Michal
It's just the.
00:28:08 Michal
Tool like a screwdriver, right?
00:28:09 Michal
Like you can use it in a very different.
00:28:11 Michal
Ways and I think those tools are helpful, right?
00:28:14 Michal
They can take that information and it's going to help you.
00:28:16 Michal
You know, it's not putting people in a box.
00:28:18 Michal
It's not doing that.
00:28:19 Michal
It's just giving you some additional information they can use to your advantage and to other people advantage.
00:28:27 Michal
To promote belonging to create the environment that that accept everyone who for who they are and and uh promotes their strengths.
00:28:36 Justin
It's all about pushing into acceptance, which is understanding or, you know, working to understand others and accepting them for who they are.
00:28:45 Justin
Accepting that not everyone's like us and and accepting them, even if even if there are things that we don't understand about them.
00:28:52 Justin
That's one of the messages that I want this work to get out so much because I think.
00:28:57 Justin
It's something that's.
00:29:00 Michal
100 percent 100%.
00:29:02 Justin
Well, I think that's a a good, a good note for us to close on.
00:29:07 Justin
Michael, I want to thank you so much for being my first podcast guest on the Creating belonging podcast.
00:29:14 Justin
We'll be releasing new episodes every two weeks.
00:29:19 Justin
Our final episode will be a LinkedIn live, which then we will.
00:29:24 Justin
Repackage and publish as the final podcast.
00:29:27 Justin
So Michael, I'm gonna get that on your calendar because I'm going to have an assortment of guests.
00:29:34 Justin
Across the podcast, and would love for you to join us in that final discussion for the season anyway, so.
00:29:43 Michal
Amazing. Amazing. Looking forward to.
00:29:44 Justin
That, thank you. And Michael's also a new father. So I hope you go go take a nap.
00:29:52 Michal
Yeah, yeah, I I mean, I don't know.
00:29:54 Michal
If you can hear that.
00:29:55 Michal
And like the kid is screaming in the background.
00:29:58
We can't.
00:30:01 Michal
That's kind of my duty calling that.
00:30:04
Thank you very much.
00:30:05
Thank you.
00:30:05 Justin
I love it.
00:30:05
For having me pleasure.
00:30:06
Pleasure to be here.
00:30:08
Thank you.
