The Creating Belonging Podcast
In the book, Creating Belonging: A Practical Guide to Accelerate Belonging in Organizations and Communities, Justin Reinert describes a model where belonging sits at the intersection of authenticity and acceptance. In The Creating Belonging Podcast, host Justin Reinert will continue the conversation of creating belonging by discussing others' experiences when they've been at various levels of authenticity and acceptance in their communities. Our goal with this podcast will be to help others find new paths to belonging in their communities.
The Creating Belonging Podcast
S2E7: Leadership and Allyship: Cultivating a Workplace Where Everyone Belongs
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Have you ever walked into a room and felt like you didn't quite fit in? Imagine that sensation lingering, day in and day out, in your workplace. Geoffrey Roche from Siemens Healthineers joins us to unearth the complex layers of leadership and its profound effect on nurturing a sense of belonging at work. We traverse the landscape of workforce development with Geoffrey, whose first-generation American roots offer a rich viewpoint on creating inclusive environments. Our candid discussion reveals how traditional command-and-control leadership styles fall short, and why embracing a community-focused approach can lead to a more vibrant, cohesive team. Geoffrey shares compelling personal stories, shedding light on how the absence of belonging can ripple through an organization's culture.
As we further our exploration, the notions of allyship and inclusion come to the forefront—as does the responsibility that accompanies the title of 'ally.' Moving beyond lip service, we focus on actionable steps and the use of privilege to enact real change within our spheres of influence. We also unpack the journey of advocacy, including the missteps and the learning curves that are part and parcel of the process. From Pink's bold act of literary resistance to the challenges of overcoming embedded biases, this episode is a masterclass in fostering an environment where everyone's voice holds weight and every team member can flourish. Join us as we navigate the transformative power of leadership, allyship, and the relentless pursuit of a workplace where everyone truly belongs.
You can find Geoffrey on LinkedIn.
You can order your copy of Creating Belonging on Amazon.
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Welcome to another episode of the Creating Belonging podcast. We're getting into the second season of the Creating Belonging podcast and I'm excited to have with me our guest, Geoffrey Roche. Today, and in the usual tradition, I like to have people introduce themselves in their own voice and words. Geoffrey, if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit, about yourselves, sure?
Geoffrey:Well, wonderful to be here with you, justin, and look forward to this dialogue and conversation. Geoffrey M Roche, professionally, I serve as the director of workforce development at Siemens Health and Ears, and I'm a first-generation American. My mother was born in Germany, and so I'm actually a dual citizen, and so that's why you see behind me my American and German flag, and then the Ukrainian flag as well for our friends there, and so wonderful to be here with you. Let's dig in.
Justin:So at the time of the recording of this podcast, I may or may not have publicly announced that I'm currently working on the second edition of the book Creating Belonging, and so I'm excited for the perspective that Geoffrey brings to the table today, because we're actually going to dig into a couple of the areas of new chapters that you'll see when that second edition of the book comes out. And so the first, Geoffrey and I were having a little conversation before today and I wanted to dig into your experience in the past, so kind of broadly speaking, about one of the chapters. One of the new chapters is going to be creating belonging and leadership, and so I wanted to dig into experiences that you've had either as a leader or working with other leaders, and how the creating belonging model kind of came into play.
Geoffrey:Yeah Well, and let me just say, justin, that I applaud you for not only writing a book but covering such an important topic like belonging and leadership. I have regularly, in my 15 plus years of a career, seen so many different examples where I haven't seen a leader truly espouse creating a sense of belonging. And there are many different examples that come to mind, but in one particular example, I served in an organization once in my career with just a leadership style that didn't have not only a sense of belonging but in many ways, not even a sense of respect, appreciation or value for others, and what I saw very quickly was there. To me, one of the greatest qualities of a leader is to develop that sense of belonging. It's through building a relationship that's art, centered, authentic, meaningful. And when I came into the organization, just like any time I come into an organization, for me it's so critical to use the first 90 days to learn as much as possible and to meet as many people as possible. And as I was doing that, it was so clear to me that there was concerns and fear of leaders in the organization.
Geoffrey:And what was interesting about it was, as I was sharing more because I was part of the senior leadership team. As I was sharing, more individuals were coming more and more to me. Help to me, help us navigate this. Tell us why you do this differently, why are you such a good listener, and just different things like that. And I was like my gosh, like, first of all, clearly, why am I here? Like there was a part of me, you know, like I made a mistake coming here, but then there's also a part of me. I know I'm here because I'm here to help these individuals and so, as long as I'm here, that's what I'll make a mission and focus.
Geoffrey:And even with my own team, I started to recognize that these were really, you know, significant challenges. And when I started on packet, it was just clear that there was sort of a leadership culture there that was so much an I versus a we and so much more of a kind of old school command and control and so much of what I don't like about quote unquote leadership is what I saw in that experience. And there was no sense of community, there was absolutely no sense of belonging. There was just an absolute sense of just just get this done and do it my way or the highway. And what's interesting is, despite that, despite a terrible track record of people, despite a terrible track record of retention, so many of those leaders you know still are there in their very roles today. And so it's just interesting, you know, when you unpack those types of things, you know, when I look at it, the impact of people and the impact of their you know livelihood, their mindfulness, you know, et cetera. It's just really hurting when you see that.
Justin:I like so. So a I have worked in my own handful of organizations that have had kind of command and control perspective. That is definitely not well suited for a knowledge economy. But I caught there were three words that you said in succession respect, appreciation and value, which I love that you know you're talking about. This was something that was lacking. So this organization was lacking respect, appreciation and value, and I think all of those things I would lump into acceptance. So we talked about in the creating belonging model that belonging is created, the intersection of authenticity and acceptance. And so if we're lacking on acceptance but we've got that eye perspective not a wee perspective, likely that leadership then kind of sitting very much in a place of overbearing yeah, curious. Tell me a little bit more about the leaders, or the leader that kind of drove, that, that overbearing perspective and kind of what that looked like.
Geoffrey:Yeah, you know it was in some ways, when I look back, there's part of me that almost doesn't want to look back, right, because you know, some of those experiences just sicken you to the core. But some of the examples that I vividly can remember, and you know team members of mine would regularly say this to me, and some of them, you know, some of them I'm very close to today and, and you know, at times we'll see each other at conferences and things and they'll be like do you remember this email, do you remember this? And some of it was literally like in emails First of all, no professional way of communicating at all, very, very directive. You know, very, very short. You know, to the point, just do this this way. You know no level of engagement. And you know I can remember seeing some of them and literally thinking to myself did you even read what you just wrote?
Geoffrey:And you know it's so interesting because so many of the team members that I worked with and even others that worked with you know the organization said to me that they got to a point where they just would not read their emails after a certain period of time because they would come at all hours and they just, you know, they just learn, don't even answer it, don't acknowledge it until the next day and sometimes don't even respond. And you know that speaks to a level of some level of what you'd consider disengagement. Right, some people would view that as disengagement. I didn't. I viewed that for them as they were trying to just cope with what was an absolute atrocity of an experience. And you know, no one should have to face that. Nobody should have to face that. And you know I hate to say that but in many ways to me it's abused when a leader you know or a leadership team communicates in that way with individuals.
Justin:Yeah, yeah, I can think of an organization that I worked in, and I think it was also a global organization.
Justin:I've worked in several global organizations, but this global organization where, you know, I would wake up at four in the morning and some people had already started their work day, and so, depending on you know, whether I was looking at my email at four in the morning or not could just set me off in a mood right, and so there's a bit of, I think, what's interesting, it's getting me to think about in leadership, when we think about the balance of authenticity versus acceptance, and you know, acceptance being those things that you mentioned before of respect, appreciation, appreciation, value, and I think then I'm thinking the other word that I'm thinking to bring in there is context Like what's the demand that the audience that you're communicating with?
Justin:Yeah, so that you know I, when I were, I, would join a new team. You know, sometimes some people work late and I never want to like discourage someone from working when they're in a place of genius, but I definitely would also, you know, put a caveat on any communication that I sent after hours to be I do not expect a response ever like outside of out of normal business hours and setting that as an expectation so that people know like, hey, I'm working right now because it's what's good for me, but I also don't expect it of you, right, and very few people take that kind of you know perspective to give that permission to others that, hey, I'm working right now but doesn't mean that you have to be.
Geoffrey:There are some other examples of that overbearing leadership that you can think of, that that surpassed Um you know, I can remember some, like even leadership team meetings, where you know they would start out and the desire was to, basically like, give updates and ask for feedback, but as soon as feedback would be received that it wasn't, you know necessarily what they wanted to hear, they would just, they would just shut it down. Well, I have a lot and you know, and so I think, organizationally, what people literally learned is is just to keep your head down and try and do what you can, because it really didn't matter what you could unless, unless you know, you were doing it 100% to however this individual thought it should be done. Okay, I would say I can. I'll never forget a time where colleagues were actually presenting and this was a remote environment presenting and literally, you know, a leader literally said that's just a dumb idea. Wow, you know, and this was stated to members of my team and I immediately, immediately, left the camera. I had to go off because I was just so mortified to be part of an organization where anybody would treat another person that way and you know, for me it was one of those moments where I would go back and I would reflect on. You know, I had I started my career in hospital administration and no organization, as you know, is perfect, but I worked with some of the best inclusive leaders. There's so many of the best inclusive leaders there that I ever experienced in my in my career.
Geoffrey:And one of the things that I can remember of of one of the leaders that he always said to me and this always resonates with me is he said you give everybody a chance to share their value, don't judge, let them have it. And it was always a moment when he said that to me as a young leader that resonated and literally my almost 10 years of working with this senior vice president, I could tell you that even in some of the most difficult meetings, interactions that he was in, he would give everybody a chance to share their value and literally, if they weren't speaking, he would just ask him do you have anything you want to add? And if they said no, he was fine with that, but everyone would have a chance. And I thought to myself oh, like that was early on my career and this is later and this is what I'm seeing.
Geoffrey:And that was one of those moments where I definitely reached out to them and apologized to them. But I also realized at that moment there's nothing that I could do to fix this at this point, because I'm just not in a position of really influence or impact or authority to do it anymore. At that moment it was tough because for me I'm not one to ever shy away from what I think is my responsibility, but at the same time, when the person is the boss, they're the boss. Unfortunately in the circumstances, yeah, yeah.
Justin:It makes me think of someone posted something recently about the term toxic leadership being an oxymoron, because if someone's toxic, they're not being a leader. But yes, so, and I love what you're adding there about you know, the positive example of this leader that said everyone can add some value and how they wanted to, you know, kind of go around and make sure that everyone had a turn to contribute, and that's one of the things that you know. There are often comparisons to the creating belonging work and then psychological safety, and wasn't over there, but definitely, when we talk about psychological safety, one of the, you know, strategies that's used and that came up in all the Google research and product Aristotle was that people get equal opportunity to have their voice heard, and so I think that's really important as a leader is making sure that everyone gets equal opportunity to share their value. So I love that. Thank you Absolutely.
Justin:I'm going to shift gears a little bit. There's another new chapter. We're going to hit all new stuff today, another new chapter that I'm looking at writing. That was a very recent addition and I'm excited to dig into some of the research there, so it's very conceptual at this point, but I know that you have a passion for allyship, and so the context or the subject is really creating belonging and allyship and the role of allyship and creating belonging, and I've got many thoughts of where this could go. But I'm curious you know, when we talk about allyship and creating belonging, you know how you see your role in allyship?
Geoffrey:Yeah. So you know, it's a really, really important aspect to your point around around all aspects, frankly, of diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. In my view, is the important role of an ally. And I think what's important though as I've always learned in allyship is is you can't, you can't, just say you're an ally In some ways. You've got to also, at times, be welcomed in to be an ally, and then you've also got to demonstrate that walk as an ally consistently and passionately.
Geoffrey:And a number of years ago I was, I was talking with a mentor of mine, and you know somebody who does this work at a very high level in healthcare, and she said to me you know, you've got to, you've got to use your voice. And I was like, okay, well, that's great, I know, I have it. And she said no, no, no, you've got to use your voice to get other people to the table and you've got to lift it up for them, because they don't always have the opportunities that you have. And I remember, like I was sitting there and I was thinking and this was on a zoom conversation I'm like looking at her, like okay, where's this going? And and she looked at me and she said Listen, I'm Latina, you are white. You better use that white privilege. You have to make sure I have a seat at the table, and I remember sitting at that moment like whoa, like okay, and then I sat back and I thought she's onto something, like I've been doing this work, but I've got to really make sure that I'm leaning in. And so, to your point, since that time, I really started to be more aware, specifically, of situations and experiences where individuals may be facing cultures or situations or environments where they're not getting heard, they're not getting valued, they're not getting appreciated and and and, in very many ways, it's based on their culture, is based on their ethnicity, it's based on how they identify. And so, you know, for me, all of that is just absolutely crazy to think that in 2023, that is still the case. And so I have really just started in, started to really leverage, not just engaging as an ally, but using my voice to ask questions of those in those types of situations to understand like, well, you can say you're, for you know, inclusive practice, but but do you understand what you're doing by doing that?
Geoffrey:And an experience that comes to mind is I had served in an organization once where you know, was in a higher education setting and you know, interestingly enough, there was actually more females in the workforce there than males. But the leadership of the organization was much more male dominated and, you know, very old school male dominated, to be honest. And what I would notice was, you know, you could just tell there were so many individuals who, clearly, we're some of the brightest, most capable, best in their class from an expertise level, but literally felt their voice wasn't heard, there was nothing they could contribute. And you know, I happen to be part of the leadership team and I can remember sitting down with a colleague once and she literally said to me I'm already with a PhD from a very, very good school. And she said to me it's really interesting that you can be heard much more quickly than I can. And it was one of those moments where I was like wait, wait, we need to unpack this. And as we unpacked it, you know, we got talking and this is somebody I'm very, very close with today, a phenomenal professional, an amazing leader, but somebody who clearly this organization was just holding back, this organization was stymie, being any chance of progression or grace, and I never really could understand it other than it was. You know we're going to just continue our status quo of this group being in the lead and no one else is going to get to that table. And even when there is, you know different, you know gender diversity on the leadership, you know leadership team.
Geoffrey:It was clear who were making the decisions. It was clear who was in the room when decisions were made. It was clear who was listened to and who wasn't. And it was clear who was felt. You know who felt like they were being held back and not advanced.
Geoffrey:And you know, I started to realize, like here's a moment of allyship either. You know, yes, is it risky for me to step forward and ask questions? Sure, but at the end of the day, if I'm not willing to step up and stand in for those who can't even get heard, what am I good for? And so I started to just ask questions, started to, you know, just put forward things like hey, what about this person for this group? Why not put this person on this committee? Why not ask them to serve? Why is this person a chair? But this person is in a chair, why are there only male leaders in this area?
Geoffrey:And you know, I could tell wasn't welcome, you know, and I started to get more ostracized and pushed out of things.
Geoffrey:And, you know, and I started to realize, like you know, for me, unfortunately, this isn't going to be a long-term, long-term place, because that is not a culture that I want to be a part of.
Geoffrey:But but there was an important lesson, you know, for me in that, and that was as an ally, you've got to be willing to speak up for those who need you to, and sometimes for those who may not even think they need you to, and you also have to be willing to, to put yourself on the line in those situations, because so many people have done so much in this quest for belonging for so long.
Geoffrey:You know, and I thought you know, as a college student I was privileged to hear Congressman John Lewis speak and to have met Congressman Lewis, and I'll never forget when I was in college, congressman Lewis said to a group of us students just remember that I was beaten almost to death to fight for civil rights, and I'll never forget. He looked at all of us and said what will you fight for one day and how will you be selfless in doing so? And I'm not in any way, in any way, comparing this example to that, but what I am comparing is the importance that we look out for others and be willing to put forward our voice for another, for others or another in those circumstances, because what was clear to me in that was that the individuals who were not being heard at least felt like they had somebody who would hear them. Yeah, thank you.
Justin:That's really thank you for sharing that. It's such a great experience to pull from and it's I love that you've had people who have called you and have called you onto the carpet to say, hey, this is something you value, so it's time to put your actions into play. But I wanted to come back to a couple of funds. That's number one is just this idea that Allied ship is not. It's not a permanent label, Like you don't just get to be an ally and it's a badge that you've earned and then you keep that badge forever. You know, an ally, an ally ship, is work, that you have to renew that badge every single day. You have to bring something to help move people forward.
Justin:And there's also this concept of being welcomed in, and I want to dig into that a little bit because you had mentioned there's. There's a really careful balance in something you said of kind of speaking up for people and working towards their, for their voice, even if they don't realize it. But there's a balance there, right Of like we can't speak on behalf of other people, but we do need to make sure that we're elevating over their voices and that kind of coming in with that being welcomed in. I'm curious if you could tell me a little bit more of how you strike that ballot.
Geoffrey:Yeah, you know to your point, it is an everyday learning and development process, and it also really critical, particularly when you because there's a difference between and you know, and I often have said people really have to understand this there's a big difference between being an advocate and being an ally. And it is not easy to be an ally Because, to your exact point, you have to be willing and able to take feedback too, because you can't I don't live that life, I don't know what it's like to walk that. What I know is that if I'm welcomed into that allyship, I'm expected to speak up and I'm expected to contribute as a vital, active voice in the work to create a better sense of belonging or a more inclusive culture, and so I have to be absolutely committed. But I also have to be willing and able to accept feedback, because there are times that maybe I'm not walking the walk that I have been invited into, maybe I'm contributing in the way that I was expected to, and so I have to be willing to take that honest feedback, and that may mean that I'm no longer invited or welcomed in as an ally, because it may mean that I've walked too far a line. And so to me, it is an absolute everyday process and I think to your point. What's so critical in that I always think about is it's almost like when you describe it it is both a privilege but an enormous amount of responsibility. And particularly when you're invited in as an ally, you have to be willing to experience aspect that are going to be very new for you and be willing to ask a lot of questions that you're in a position to really understand.
Geoffrey:If you hear something or experience something or see something that you're going to be the absolute first to say excuse me, did you just really say what you said? Because I'm not so sure that would be an appropriate way to say it. And at the same time, you have to be careful because you can't go too far, because so many people who desire to have allies could be extremely vulnerable because of what we have done in our society to them and, unfortunately, sometimes with them, and so you have to be really, really careful and thoughtful around that, which is why I always say, particularly in leadership, we have kind of make it or break it moments for people. We can either help them to kind of make it to the next step or we can literally be the ones that break it for them. And I've always felt the same is so true in allyship, and I'll say that it always has been, and it continues to be, a learning and development opportunity for me.
Geoffrey:And I think of some of the most ultimate allies that are very public, and I think of people like Pink.
Geoffrey:I personally love Pink, I've been to many Pink concerts, but I look at what Pink did recently in the state of Florida and that's a very, very vocal public allyship demonstration to say, hey, you want to ban books?
Geoffrey:Well, I'm going to give you all those ban books right back and I want you to take them into the school districts, because not only are you banning books, but you're banning the very identities of the authors and the very identity of the people who are referenced in those books, and that is not okay. And so you know I look at someone like that, because every Pink concert I've been to, what I see preached is a sense of inclusion and what I see preached is a sense of community, and so you know that element is really, really important. But I'll also say there are times where even Pink herself will make a mistake, and you know what People will say take a step back and you got to learn from that. And so it's that element of not just emotional intelligence, but that we've got a level set with ourselves too, that we're humans too and we have to learn, you know, from every experience.
Justin:Yeah, yeah, I think we have to approach it with that learning mindset and bravery, because it takes bravery to get out there. I'm just a lot of. This conversation is making me think about a workshop I did a little while back, had a conversation with one of the participants who, and it was asked to the program and had a conversation with them and they hadn't spoken up at all at all, like not a peep came out of their mouth and you know we talked about it and they just they shared like look, I'm a white male and I'm probably going to say something wrong, and so it's easier if I just don't speak up. And the more we dug into it, it was around you know the Ansel culture that we have, like you say the one wrong thing and then you're done, no more, which I don't. I don't believe in it.
Justin:We have to give people an opportunity to learn and move forward, and so that takes some bravery and an acceptance that you know I am going to screw up and then I'm going to learn from it and move forward. And then the last thought that I have around kind of I love the pink example in the books, I love that story of what she did there, and we don't all have the resources to be able to give out 2000 books to the concert, but we do have some influence over someone that we can can be an ally, and so we just have to keep doing the work and showing up. Absolutely yeah, Geoffrey, thank you so much for taking some time to chat with me today. I'm excited to have your stories a part of this work, and I'm also excited that we got to dig into some of the new topics that I'll be exploring in the second edition of Creating Belonging. So thank you so much, Geoffrey.
Geoffrey:You're so welcome. Thank you for having me.
Justin:And thank you all, stay tuned for another episode of the Creating Belonging podcast.
