The Creating Belonging Podcast
In the book, Creating Belonging: A Practical Guide to Accelerate Belonging in Organizations and Communities, Justin Reinert describes a model where belonging sits at the intersection of authenticity and acceptance. In The Creating Belonging Podcast, host Justin Reinert will continue the conversation of creating belonging by discussing others' experiences when they've been at various levels of authenticity and acceptance in their communities. Our goal with this podcast will be to help others find new paths to belonging in their communities.
The Creating Belonging Podcast
S2E8: Building Bridges Through Understanding Diverse Perspectives
Let us know what you think of this podcast!
Discover the art of genuine communication and the essence of belonging with Kim Clark, a communication strategist and author who navigates the complex interplay of identity with a deft touch. As a white, cisgender woman with Native American roots, a proud member of the LGBTQ+ community, and a mother to children with disabilities, Kim challenges us to confront our privileges and channel them for the upliftment of others. By sharing her personal journey and professional insights, she urges us to examine the threads of self-awareness that bind us together, even within the rich tapestry of our diverse society.
The workplace is not only a bastion of productivity but a microcosm of society, where representation and inclusivity are paramount. Kim Clark and I dissect the imperative need for diversity and the pitfalls of tokenism, emphasizing how embracing our multifaceted identities enriches business and community alike. As we navigate a world where policies often cast shadows on personal lives, Kim underscores the privilege of neutrality and implores us to engage in the necessary, though sometimes uncomfortable, discourse that shapes our collective reality.
Wrapping up our enlightening discussion, we traverse the poignant realities of finding one's place within conflicting identities, such as the reconciliation of faith with sexual orientation, and the societal landscapes navigated by transgender and gender non-conforming individuals. Kim's narrative is a testament to the transformative power of self-acceptance and the essential collaborative effort to foster inclusive spaces. This episode is an invitation to reflect, learn, and embrace the full spectrum of who we are, both individually and together.
Find Kim:
Conscious Communicator
Documentary: God & Gays
Kim Clark Communications Website
LinkedIn
You can order your copy of Creating Belonging on Amazon.
Music:
Wave by Helkimer | https://soundcloud.com/helkimer
Music promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.com
Creative Commons / Attribution 3.0 Unported License (CC BY 3.0)
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/deed.en_US
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Creating Belonging podcast. Today I have with me Kim Clark. Kim, would you mind introducing yourself?
Kim:Absolutely. Hi, justin. It's great to be here. Thank you for inviting me to be a part of this incredible show that you have going here. So my name is Kim Clark Pronouns are she her and what I do is I work with communicators on helping them understand what diversity, equity and inclusion is, and many of them have belonging as part of their strategy as well. Many of them have belonging as part of their strategy as well, so, understanding the role and responsibility of the communicator, and I'm also the co-author of the book the Conscious Communicator the Fine Art of Not Saying Stupid, I'll do. Family friendly Justin, stop, it's fair.
Justin:I say it, it's okay.
Kim:All right, the Fine Art of Not Saying Stupid Shit. So that's book that janet stovall and I co-authored for this very purpose I love that, I love that.
Justin:Look, I think I'm all about leaning into authenticity and so, you know, if I I definitely don't have I say what someone considers swear words occasionally and I'm okay with that, um, as long as it's not overly offensive. Uh, so one thing I like to do with my guests to get us going is you know, we I'd love to dig into some of your personal experiences and so just to set some of the foundational context there what identities would you mind sharing for folks to get us started.
Kim:Well, if you were to look at me, I am melanemic, as Jane Elliott calls it, so I have whiter skin, lighter skin, and so, being a white woman, cisgender woman in the world who has Native American ancestry and is trying, you know, working diligently to reclaim that ancestry and those cultural traditions, the language, so that is something that I'm working on in the background, doing a documentary on my family's story as they survived Only two members of our tribe, our family, survived on the Trail of Tears, so I'm doing a documentary about my family in that story. Also, I am part of the LGBTQ plus family and community and came out when I was 28 years old, justin. So being born and raised in a conservative, the Christian environment, and raised as a Christian that's a whole story right there and so I do not have disabilities, but I have kids who do have disabilities. So entering into that world, that community, and what does support look like, so being very cognizant of my abilities and and ableism in my language and behavior has become much more of a forefront in raising these guys in this world.
Kim:So I think those are the college educated middle class you know. So there is quite an influence and a conflation and a desperate need for reconciliation with some of my identities being white and working in diversity, equity, inclusion with Native American ancestry. There's a lot of healing that needs to happen with those kind of ancestral paths that you know my families have been a part of in that history and me trying to reconcile that and move around in the world, given the social context that we're in, is a big part of my work. But my kids, they're a big motivation, plus my own sexual orientation identity as well. That's a pretty big motivation for me.
Justin:Well, it's great that you're doing that work and digging in there, so we're not going to have a shortage of things to talk about today. So one place that I want to start, because you work in this space, I want to start a little more kind of on the the topic of your work and one of the things as I was kind of digging through. You know some of the things that you work on in your book. I want to talk a bit about the role of kind of self-acceptance or self-assess in. You talk about that, the role that that plays in conscious communication.
Kim:So I'd love to start there, because I think that relates into authenticity and the creating belonging model that's the biggest thing right there is just just pausing long enough, just listening to long enough to hearing somebody else's story, recognizing that my experience is my own, specific, narrow, limited experience, and that other people are having a different experience than me. We might be in the same room, but we're having different experiences. I love sharing a story of my sister and I, raised by the same family, you know, but here we are as adults. We could tell completely different stories about the exact same event. So, even if you're living together, if you're working together, it you know, if you just bump each other to each other, with strangers in the grocery store. It's this, that awareness, and then having that awareness of, like other people, having a different experience and pausing enough to say, to do that assessment, I think is really, really important.
Kim:And a lot of people miss that part and they kind of stop at the awareness part. They might recognize that somebody else is being followed in a store when they are not is being followed in a store when they are not. You know, for example, during the summer of 2020, lots of stories of people in the Black community started being more open about you know how they're treated. You know, for example, walking through a department store that they are watched, whereas I've never found myself to be watched. That was not anything I had to think about. So there's a sense of awareness to it.
Kim:But then we you know so many people will stop at that stage because it gets uncomfortable and we tend to get defensive about it. Or we project or, you know, we shut down, or we get triggered and rather than take that invitation to stay curious and get into that place of assessment. And what does that mean for me? When I walk into a room as a white woman, am I recognizing the privilege that I'm bringing into that space and what do I do with that privilege where it can be advantageous? You know, for the rest of the room rather than just for me. So that awareness to assessment piece and then going into action. You know for the rest of the room rather than just for me. So that awareness to assessment piece and then going into action, you know it just gets. It's like the funnel, right, justin? So it's like, you know, there's more people having awareness, there's fewer people assessing when they have that awareness and then there's even fewer people taking action upon that awareness and assessment.
Justin:So there's I see so much alignment there in kind of how I view authenticity, and then authenticity converging with acceptance. So there's the authenticity piece of knowing who I am, understanding how I'm showing up and understanding my own values and perspective, and then understanding that my values and perspective are not the same as others. And so you know, when we're doing this work appropriately, we are understanding that not everyone has the same values as I do and I'm not applying those values or that perspective to everyone else. So it sounds like you've done a lot of work here on defining what this looks like and then helping people to to do that. So if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about you know, either you know individuals that you've worked with who've had challenges in navigating this piece, or just what are the steps to be able to effectively do this, to understand that my perspective is only mine and not laying that on other people.
Kim:Yeah, and really ascribing that kind of value that mine is not more than someone else's experience, that somebody else's experience is less than my experience. You know, when you're talking about having that awareness that other people are having another, a different experience, it's recognizing that that's not a bad thing. You know that's life, you know. But unfortunately people put a judgment on it Like you should have my experience, you should be. You know parents saying it to kids. You should be going being a doctor and going to college. You know you should. I'm in the workplace and I'm a manager and you have all the opportunity that you could ever want in this job, when that's not true for somebody else and someone can't see that you know. So there's kind of this value and judgment. You know somebody is cisgender and may not understand the transgender experience and then you know saying that you're just going through a phase or something. So we put these value judgments on other people's experiences based on our own. So, professionally, when I'm working with communicators, over 80% of people who are in-house professional communicators look like me at least you know, from a skin tone standpoint and so there's a lot of learning to understanding what diversity, equity and inclusion is, because we haven't had to have those conversations in the workplace and for, you know, many parts of the United States, people haven't had to have these conversations in their faith traditions, in their neighborhoods, in their schools. You know they haven't. There hasn't been this conversation right. And I was raised, justin, you know, with the whole rule. You know, no politics and religion at the dinner table, so that all those years were lost opportunities to have conversations with people who are having different experiences and being able to see the humanity behind it all. So we have a lot of catch up to do and there's such an urgency because people are, you know, literally dying because we're not able to move forward in providing these spaces for belonging, to point to your work, that because of our own, whatever it is that's holding us.
Kim:And so when I'm working with communicators in particular, I'm trying to help them understand their role and responsibility and the kind of language that they use.
Kim:Gender neutral language is one example, but there's many, many, many, many examples of inclusive communications with me that they understand that language leads to behavior and that if you are trying to drive an inclusive workplace, a place where everybody, no matter what their, their path and their experiences, can truly feel like they belong in the workplace? What kind of tone and personality language you do, do you have to use within communications to present that invitation for people and to understand and also uncover? Going back to what you're talking about earlier of the awareness and assessment part, looking at their channels, looking at the visuals that they're using, are we reinforcing stereotypes? You know, are we cutting out entire populations? They're not being represented in our communications so people don't see themselves in the work you know, um, and so that's the kind of stuff we have to, we have to be more aware of, we have to assess and we have to take action on yeah, the last.
Justin:So there's two things I want to grab in there. One, the, the. I'll go the most recent, the last thing that you were talking about with you know, representation of. You know, are we, when we're creating imagery of our workforce, what does that imagery look like? And something I did so while I was still in house running learning and development team.
Justin:Something I started to do was being intentional about auditing content to ensure diverse representation of people in their content. And then also would storyboard you know, like storyboard training modules say, but then go back and do a diversity storyboard on it. So, even if it wasn't a diversity, I would go back and I would look at, of these people, what are the genders that are represented, what are the races that are represented, what are the abilities that are represented, and making sure that, look, you're not going to be able to get every you know color of the rainbow when it comes to representation, but is everybody in here white Right going to be able to get every you know color of the rainbow when it comes to representation, but is everybody in here white right? Or do they look like a population that we would want to see in our workforce? Um, and so I think that's such important work that, um, I think only recently do organizations really think about that.
Kim:And we need to get them beyond. We need to get them to awareness, to your point, and we also need to get them into that kind of assessment. You know, mode as well, whereas there's more organizations that are more aware of like, oh man, this webpage just is all white people, for example, or all able-bodied. You know there's no one here with disabilities, whatever it may be. But we need to get into that point of making sure that we're not checking the box and tokenizing, initially employees. Now, if it's stock image libraries, you know, just be thoughtful. Body size is often a missed opportunity for representation, for example. But you know, when you're talking about employees, do not tokenize them. They're not there to be your poster child. You know it's not for you to say, yeah, it looks represent. You know it looks diverse. Good, we're all done. Or you're running a town hall and you're like it's all men that are speaking. Quick, we need a woman. Can somebody give me a woman we need? You know it's not what we're trying to do here.
Kim:It's the value that these identities bring to the workplace. Give them a name, but there has to be a call to action to it as well. They're not there to be your poster child to what I just said. It's just like what's the value that they provide into the business? What's the value that they provide into the business? And when you said that you put together you know a plan and then you put a DEI lens on it, that's what I call. It is a DEI lens on your content. Now you know different points of view. You know we would have. You know your company would have missed out on all of that. You know they could. They would have just not had that opportunity. Employees would have had a more inclusive experience. So that speaks to the beauty of diversity amongst your team, because there are people who are going to bring that lens, whether they're part of more of a majority population, but definitely people who have been marginalized with their identities. It's actually a superpower that we bring these perspectives and add so much value to the business through those identities.
Justin:Yes, yeah, I love that that we're getting better at that and I think we still have room to grow. The other thing I think. So that was kind of on the more corporate piece. This next one that I wanted to something that's just like picking at me is talking about you know we, when you, your family, didn't do quote politics- yeah, at the dinner table and I think about that, I mean the a in the workplace.
Justin:It's a touchy thing, but even with my own family, you know there's. I grew up. I grew up in Iowa. Every podcast, every conversation, I think I grew up in Iowa, but it says something about you know.
Kim:My bias goes right to a picture of what that means, right?
Justin:Yes, and it's probably fairly accurate. I grew up in rural Iowa and you know there's very much. The Iowa that I grew up in was very much a live and let live and don't talk about difficult stuff, and you know, don't we're not going to do religion or we're not going to do politics. And so to this day, there are times when you know when I might bring up politics, that's just not appreciated, I'm like. But when my, when my life, when the status of my partner are being questioned by current politics like this isn't about neutral. Politics Like this is personal to me and you know, I think when someone has the privilege of not needing to just not be, not being able to not talk, politics is privilege because you are under current, you know, attack.
Kim:Right, exactly.
Justin:And that's something that I think we need to talk about more is that, yes, we do need to talk about politics and understand the reasons why we're trying to oppress other, who is trying to oppress others and why?
Kim:well, I mean, and the list of identities that's under attack from a political standard, that the politicization of our identities. The list has gotten a lot longer, um and and even had like click downs into within each identity. So you have immigration, you have, you know, latinx experience, black experience, you've got. You know. Lgbtq+, you have abilities, disabilities, and then the LGBTQ, you know, plus community, but women, you know, if you look at recently I think it was the seven, you know it was an anniversary of Roe v Wade and you know it just like it. You know gender expression, it's like it's just anyone with birthing capabilities.
Kim:That is what over 50% of the population is now in this bucket where identities have been politicized, where there's been laws towards certain identities. So we're at a tipping point here over 50% of the population now. And then you add on non-birthing bodies. You know Black men, you know Hispanic men, etc. So it's just, we are now way over. You know I'm going to make up a number, but you know 60, 65% of the population, you know 70% of the population, is now on this list of identities being politicized and regulated by law to the detriment of those identities and the health and the well-being and the safety of those identities. So people aren't putting that in perspective. It feels like it's over here and over, here and over here, but we have to heal that sense of separation and recognize that there's an interdependency and a larger strategic plan here and that there's way more of us than those who are, you know, trying to force. You know, the status quo.
Kim:So the New York Times, you know I don't know if you saw this just come out talking about released texts and emails from the billionaires that have been leading this anti-DEI backlash, and you know, one of the quotes that they had in the article was talking about you know, that there's a need for patriarchy, like patriarchy has to continue to stay in power, you know so that's you know. Know so that's the beliefs of some people, right, so, but the more and more that we recognize that we're under these systems that are politicizing our identities, when our identities are just nature, you know, it's just how nature spit us out, right? It's just who we are, and and all of the things, and turning the corner around, connecting these dots and saying, wait, you know, if we're looking at 65, 70 percent of our of our population where their identities are being regulated. You know this is this is a pretty serious time and it's definitely not a time to be passive.
Justin:Yes, yeah, I think we need to be talking about politics in this lens of you know, the different identities that are under attack and bringing awareness to it. I'm curious your thoughts. There's just something I'm thinking about in this conversation. You know there is a segment of the population that is rejecting this idea of identity politics. There's kind of a you know put quotes around identity politics, right, I'm curious your thoughts on that and kind of the I don't know like, how has that become a thing?
Kim:Yeah, been around for a beat and it just kind of is weaponized. You know, like a lot of terms are being weaponized but it's just kind of made, made its re-entrance. Another, an adjacent form of this is the whole idea of you know, I I talk to communicators and teach them about inclusive language. You know, I just mentioned that. But people talk about, like you know, you're trying to police, you know tone, police what I'm saying and and and tell me that you know I have to use these words and not these other words and it's like no, actually it's not about this whole outside in kind of thing, it's really an inside out kind of inspiration that we're trying to share with people, where it's like I'm not trying to tell you what to say, but I'm telling you that what you say impacts me and I'm hoping you care about that.
Kim:Then, identity politics to me. Yes, there's scholarly articles, there's research on it, there's academia that I encourage people to look more into. That I'm not going to get into here, but I get into the experience of it, and sometimes terms and phrases like that are used to end conversations or to be used as a weapon. And if it's not conversation or a term or a phrase that is not bringing people into the conversation, allowing for curiosity, fostering learning and encourage people kind of coming together in a community to figure this out, because we've never had a diverse, inclusive, equitable workplace certainly not a society, unless you're part of the native tribes you know in Ecuador, who do know how to do. This side is, we don't know how to do this, so we're trying to do something we've never experienced, but there's a vision there is, you know, and so we're not going to get tripped up with identity politics and these other kinds of terms that are used to weaponize and kind of keep the conversation. Well, not a conversation, it's just like it's trying to stop the conversation. It's like I, I can't do that, so I'm going to keep going and I know that.
Kim:You know, and honestly, justin, you know this comes up with the clients that I work with, where they're like well, we can't talk about politics in the workplace, like Mark Zuckerberg, you know, was declaring that at Meta. You know, we're not talking about politics and anybody who does blah, blah, blah Not a good idea because it's completely out of integrity of the organization. Organizations make decisions. They. You know, in order to get an employee identification number, you have to go to the government in order to you know. So you're making decisions on where you're going to build your headquarters, based on the state government relationships that you're going to have.
Kim:So much building is happening in Texas because of the tax breaks that the governments state, city, municipal governments are giving corporations. There's a relationship, there's lobbying, you know that kind of stuff. So you can't, you don't get to say we're not going to talk about politics when you're making so many huge decisions for your organization that directly impacts those employees, based on your relationships with politicians. You know legislation, legislators, you know whether it's at the local county, whatever level it may be. So it's inviting us into the conversation because the collateral damage tends to be employees when we aren't talking about it. But we don't. If the power is outside of our walls that are allowing our identities to be politicized, and then we don't have a DEI strategy to protect us from that, then we have every right to have that conversation. Right, you know. It just means that we don't have the skill set to do it in a productive, constructive way, and there's this fear of loss of control rather than leaning in on the collaboration that could come out of it.
Justin:Yeah, yeah. Well, it's like. I think it's a simple way to think about it is you know, hey, meta, as an example, and Mark Zuckerberg, do you have LGBTQ plus identifying employees? If you do, your employees are having laws introduced that are negatively impacting their lives. Do you care about that? Do you care about your employees? And I think that's the perspective that needs to be taken.
Kim:I thought that, and in so many organizations, will donate to politicians, like in Florida. An advocacy organization approached us and said hey, the recent political donation you made to X legislator is also that same legislator is supportive of the anti-LGBTQ plus laws taking effect in Florida and you're a sponsor of Pride and you have a contingency of employees walking in Pride. So we wanted to let you know that this politician is doing that so you can stay integrity with your support of the community. Well, unfortunately, leaders fired back and were mad at the advocacy group and so it's like no, they just turned on the light, you're doing this. So their response to me was well, we didn't want to get in the middle of these culture wars. I'm like, but you're funding the culture wars.
Kim:So if you're giving money to these politicians, yes, you're giving it to them saying, hey, thank you for protecting our business interests and our industries, and you know that's why you're doing it. But then they're also involved in these culture aspects. You can't compartmentalize that because they're not. They're just taking the money, doing whatever they're going to do. So you know, the conversation has to be within the power dynamics between the organization and the politicians. So it's not with the advocacy group. It's not with the employees, it's not with the customers, you know, but with the employees.
Kim:It's not with the customers, but yet we're the ones that become the collateral damage because organizational leaders are not having these conversations with politicians and legislators and saying thank you for all your support, but I cannot fund you if you're going to put my people, my customers, my employees in harm's way. I can't, I can't, I will not fund you if you're going to support this. This is not okay, you know, and connecting the dots that culture impacts business outcomes and so many times leaders don't make that connection, even though they will purport values, they will talk about belonging and inclusion, but they still don't make the connection of intent and impact. So very interesting situation to work with that client because they were literally firing back at the advocacy group. Well, we've done all of these things, we've given all this money, we've done all these river cleanups, and the advocacy group is like okay, great, thank you. That's apples, we're talking about oranges.
Justin:Yeah.
Kim:Because the leaders aren't making the connection, that that's not the conversation we're having and you're being really defensive when we're saying we can help you be in integrity with yourself, but you have to be consistent. We're asking organizations to be consistent.
Justin:Yeah, it's great work that you're doing there. I want to shift gears a little bit and I know that we talked about the role of religion in your kind of upbringing and, you know, kind of in your coming out process. I'd love to talk about that and how it impacted belonging in that journey.
Kim:Great question. Yeah, I mentioned that I was raised in a conservative Christian environment all the way through high school. You know the kind of place where everyone's white and you sing for a hymnal and it sounds like a funeral every single sunday because nobody has any kind of pizzazz. Um, I've shown movies that rock and rolls from the devil. You know no sex before marriage. Marriage is only between a man and a woman, the whole thing. So I felt like I belonged in that.
Kim:Yeah, as a kid I loved the felt little. You know wise men that we would play out on the storyboard in Sunday school. I loved the stories. I loved the moral compass. I loved being introduced to believing that there's something bigger, there's a greater purpose. There is an energy out there that created you and you get to be in its like image. I loved the kind of those spiritual principles of it. But it wasn't until I was like a junior in high school that I realized that.
Kim:But it wasn't until I was like a junior in high school that I realized that this was really out of touch with life in my experience and I did not recognize that I was gay until I was in my 20s and fell in love with a female roommate that had just moved in, in love with a female roommate that had just moved in. She's just walking down the hallway as she carries her lamp into her new bedroom and I'm like what is happening to me right now? What is happening right now? The funny, funniest part of that story is I was getting ready for work when I was watching her walk up and down the hallway with the lamp and whatever, and I was getting ready for work and I had walked back. I had walked into the closet to get my belt because I was getting ready for work and I'm like I walked in the closet and I realized the fun with that. I'm like I just walked in the closet, huh.
Kim:But I actually started a two to three year spiral for me because I had a lot of difficulty reconciling and very, very worried that God wouldn't love me anymore kind of thing. I didn't have a problem with, gay people apply to me and I felt that it was threatening my very existence as someone who was very, very devout and following all of the practices that our denomination followed, and so it did get pretty dire there for a while where I thought the world would be better off without me kind of a thing. And but bless my mom, who was living several states away from me, and I called her and while she didn't understand and she was very worried about me that's what she focused on she didn't get hung up on. You know, I'm 28 years old at this point, so I'm not living under her roof or anything. I'm, you know, independent, so I had that privilege. But she didn't put her lack of understanding on me. She didn't put judgment on me. She just heard that her daughter is really struggling and considering some pretty serious decisions, and so that's all she heard and she really stepped up. I didn't tell my dad for a while because he's not really good at that stuff. So my mom and I are really close, but she's been.
Kim:She was the one that raised me in the church so and I found that it wasn't really my external family or friends at first that were my big, it was my own internalized homophobia. That was that almost cost me my life. And so I am very, very pleased that I had this interesting awakening one time when I was kind of doing the whole like falling on the floor. God isn't going to love me anymore. I'm so scared that God's not going to love me anymore. And you know where you're on your side on the carpet and snot's coming out and you know you can't reach the Kleenex box and it's all just kind of you know pud. You're on your side on the carpet and snot's coming out and you know you can't reach the Kleenex box. It's all just kind of you know puddling there on the carpet.
Kim:And I realized I remembered this really stupid poster that I had when I was in second grade, one of those scholastic posters that you get when you get a book order and it said God don't make no junk. And I realized, well, while it's grammatically incorrect, I found the spiritual principle behind it profound in that moment and it just started, made me laugh. It just started, I just started laughing and then I realized wait, wait, wait. If I'm made in God's image or universe's image, I just what am I doing? Questioning the purpose of this? This is, you know, this is who I am. I'm just awakening more to who I am, which would solve the mystery of why I was with this guy for seven years and never slept with him. That was a total. I thought it was the Christianity. You know the commitment. You know if we're not married. It's not happening. But no, it was actually because I'm gay.
Justin:Yeah.
Kim:So I was actually kicked out. Just the opposite of belonging. I was kicked out of the church, obviously, you know. You know I didn't have my friends anymore. But my family struggled but they didn't put it on me, they went somewhere else to struggle with it. But there was some friction for a while there. My sister didn't recognize my relationship with this woman. For a long time she didn't see it as equal value to her and her husband.
Kim:It wasn't easy peasy by any means. When I even got, I started healing my own internalized homophobia, but so I had just the opposite of belonging when I was going through the coming out experience. But prior to that, yeah, when I was obeying the rules and I was doing everything I was told to do, oh yeah, I completely belonged. But stepping out of that, having a sense of independence and my own self-determination, oh no, absolutely not. And that was personally. But professionally I was fine. I didn't have any problems at work because I worked at a rock radio station. So they loved it. They thought it was fantastic right, it's a rock radio station, and but it took years, justin. It took years for me to like.
Kim:I was going to start a hotline for what I called orphans, people who are gay and Christian. You know, I was like I was really lost. I was, I was. I fell through the cracks there because I didn't feel safe and comfortable in the gay community yet and I didn't. I couldn't, I couldn't even call myself that for a long time and I couldn't even call myself that for a long time. And I was also kind of lost in not knowing that. I wasn't welcomed in the churches that I was familiar with. I was told I couldn't lead any kind of a team when I had been leading several teams, and so there was definitely penalties and consequences.
Kim:But I'll tell you, it's all worth it, it gets better, like the Trevor Project says. And now, not only do I feel like I belong in my family in the work that I do, the spiritual practice I'm a spiritual practitioner. Now my mentor, my DEI mentor and coach, is a reverend who's a gay woman out of LA. Who's a gay woman out of LA. So I have found my spaces. But I think the most profound sense of belonging has just been within my own skin, within who I am embracing becoming a spiritual practitioner, embracing that and standing on solid ground on my sexual identity, so much so that I made a documentary, loosely based on my story called God and Gays Bridging the Gap, and it's online. It was made in 2005. So my hair is don't judge me on my hair, but it, you know. I just I wanted to tell the story and I wanted to help other people feel a sense of belonging the way you know. You know, because I was able and continue, I'm able to experience it.
Justin:You know, because I was able and continue, I'm able to experience it. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. It's I think one of the places I'm going is just. You know what's happening right now in the book bands and the don't say gay bills like all of that is to create an experience that replicates what you grew up with.
Justin:Right, you know it's, it's, and that's why I get, I get, so I get so worked up about those things. Because we need those. The young versions of us need those. The young versions of us need that representation, need some sign somewhere that says, hey, it's okay to be who you are, even if they're raised in a household that is extremely conservative Christian. That tells them they're going to hell. That, you know, gives them a glimmer of hope that maybe there's something out there that I can, a way that I can belong, a way that I can be who I am.
Kim:And you're not broken and there's nothing wrong with you. You're just evolving into learning about who you are. So I have found that, you know, universe wastes nothing. So for me to be raised in that kind of environment and being a white person and now doing this work that I am, when people say, you know, I can't, I can't support, you know, gay people, that's against the Bible and it's like, well, let's talk about those 11 scriptures. I know the scriptures so I can have a conversation. I'm not going to get into debate. I'm going to listen to you, you know, and I'm going to, you know, help you through your own discomfort, because this isn't about the gay person that you're upset at. This is about your own evolution. It's about your discomfort. So I'm focusing on you. I'm not worried about that gay person that you're saying is going to hell, you know, because they're fine. They're fine. Universe has their back. They're living their life, they're having their experience. Let's talk about your experience. Off for you. What, what, what, what is it that you're really struggling with that? You know that this person is reflecting upon you, that they are allowed to have this sense of independence and authenticity because you talk yeah, it's a lot big part of your work is authenticity.
Kim:When people and alok, you know the activist, the trans activist, you know, look, you know talks about this a lot.
Kim:It's just lgbtq plus, especially gender non-conforming, non-binary, transgender people when they're living their truth, it's like people who have not gotten that permission, they've not had the space in the room to figure out who they are, whether it has anything to do with gender expression or sexual orientation or not, just the sense of seeing somebody else live in their truth and being who they are in their authentic self. When this person over here has never had that permission or will, their love will be withheld from them and all that kind of stuff. The anger is genuine, it's real, it's valid. It's just they put it on this person, the trans person, over, but it's actually about their own limitations, their own lack of safety and security and self-identification and all that kind of stuff. It's like so I want to spend time with you here. This person is going to go on and move on with their life, but there's a reflection of their experience that's really triggering for you. How can I help you with that?
Justin:Yeah, I love that perspective that it's about their inability to lean into their own authenticity.
Kim:They don't have the tools yeah.
Justin:There's something powerful in that, and I'm going to think about that for a while because I don't.
Kim:It helps with compassion, that's for sure, but still cut it off. It's like we're going to get that person out of the scenario because it's really not about the trans person, right? I don't. You need attention. You're clearly asking for it, even if it's in a negative way, negative attention. But it's like if you need somebody to listen to you, let's talk about how to work with you to step into your own authenticity.
Justin:Yeah, yeah, and that's the other perspective that I always have on it is is how is that trans person harming you? What? What are? What are they doing? So maybe you don't agree with them, but they're still not harming you.
Kim:The authenticity is too much to handle. For some people. It's like their light is when they see someone who's trans the trans person's light is just too blinding. They can't handle it. So they make it the trans person's problem that they can't handle. And so that's where we need to.
Kim:You know, in organizations, if somebody says we're not going to do this, you know, have this gay speaker come speak during pride, or we're not going to have these fires up on the, you know, with the rainbow hands and stuff anymore, because that's offensive and that's against my religion. And organizations have been, oh, okay, okay, no, no, no. It's just like let's talk. So here's our company values, right here. You know, respect is one of them, inclusion is one of them, you know, and so it's like we have to, we have to hold the line but invite people into the work. So people are saying this is offensive to me if you're going to have these pride posters around here, and it's like, ok, how can we help you with that? Because we believe in respect and that includes respect for you and that includes respect for you, you know. But this we're not. We're not backing off on this. This is happening. So what can, what can we do to help you, you know, be a part of our culture moving.
Kim:What is it in Florida? It's like what 11 people that are primarily banning the books. It's like you know. So it's a bigger, it sounds really really big and it is impacting thousands of people. My nephews and nieces are going through public education in Florida with none of this, you know, historical accuracy at all right, and so it's like this is a real impact, but it's led by few. So what can we do to hold the line to say, oh no, we stand for life and we're not going to be putting on you know something that we don't understand laws on other people. It's just we have to take responsibility for what we say and what we do.
Kim:But there's so many of us that have been so accustomed to things just going the way, how we see them.
Kim:We've never gone through practices or drills or, you know, skilling camps, you know, to be able to, you know, handle these kinds of changes, to be able to, you know, handle these kinds of changes, and so what we do is lash out like wounded animals to try to regain control, which is what we're seeing with the billionaires've been seeing, especially around.
Kim:Higher education is, to me much more and more and more demonstrative of the desperation of trying to hold onto control rather than recognize the opportunity of the collaboration. Like I was saying earlier, desperation is so obvious to many of us and we need to build the skills. We need to build the skills and this is about change management as well but we can't stop being who we are authentically. But we also have to make room and have compassion for people who this is brand new, for They've never met a trans person, you know and and they only know how to try to get back into the comfort zone and re-establish control, like that's all they know and it's a very limited tool belt well, kim, I want to thank you so much for your time today and I want to thank you for the work that you do.
Justin:You're doing amazing work in helping to transform workplaces for others and make them better, so thank you. I'll put links in show notes, but if people want to reach out to you and find you, where can they find you?
Kim:yeah, please pick up the book if it would be helpful to you. The conscious communicator, the fine art of not saying stupid shit. And then if you're interested in the documentary in the 2005 look, it's called god and gays bridging the gap. It's available online. Used to be on dvd. Remember dvds justin back in the day like, yeah, yes I have I love, even my closet somewhere yeah, it came out on DVD originally, so that's how old it is. And then professionally, my website is kimclarkcommunicationscom.
Justin:Great Well, Kim. Thank you so much, and I'm definitely going to add the documentary to my watch list.
Kim:Great, yeah, Anyone who has Christianity, Catholicism or even Judaism as part of their experience and are curious about because I have some people who are biblical scholars that talk about the scriptures. So if you need some tangible ways of having conversations with people, you can't convince them, but you can live your truth and then be the role model that they seek to learn more from. Then the movie can be a really powerful validation, especially for people who are going through the struggle right now.
Justin:Great. Well, thank you so much, kim, and thank you all for listening. Join us again for another episode of the Creating Longing Podcast.
