Episode 32: A Veteran Regulator’s View of Michigan Gaming Oversight

In this episode of Double Down Michigan, we sit down with Tom, the very first Regulation Officer hired by the Michigan Gaming Control Board, for an insider’s look at the evolution of gaming oversight in the state. From shaping a brand-new role to navigating decades of technological innovation and regulatory challenges, Tom shares compelling stories, lessons learned, and his perspective on where the industry is headed. Whether you're curious about the behind-the-scenes world of gaming regulation or considering a career in the field, this episode offers valuable insights from one of Michigan’s most experienced voices in gaming compliance. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Are you gambling online again? If managing the builds and your betting has become a challenge instead of excluding from online gambling or sports betting, it might be for you. Learn more and don't regret the bed.org. A message from the Michigan Gaming Control Board. Have a gambling problem. Call the National Problem Gambling Helpline and 1-800 Gambler.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

On the Double Down Michigan podcast, we explore topics related to the gaming industry in Michigan. Host Henry Williams, Michigan Gaming Control Board, Executive Director, discusses responsible gaming, gaming legislation in our state, current trends, and more. We feature special guests from the gaming industry so you can get the insights go. Be sure to subscribe to Double Down Michigan, a podcast by the Michigan Gaming Control Board to stay up to date on the latest in gaming. Thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

I'm your host, Henry Williams. We're here today diving into the realm of gaming regulation, field that quietly powers the integrity and innovation of an ever-evolving industry. Joining us today is John Tomboucha, the very first regulation officer hired by the Michigan Gaming Control Board in our gaming lab. From shaping the role from scratch to navigating decades of technological change, Tom's journey offers a rare glimpse behind the scenes of gaming oversight. And just for full disclosure, I'm going to share a short story with you all. Tom, when I came to the gaming control board back in 2001, Tom trained me. I spent the day with Tom training on slot machines. All the technological information he wanted to share with a newbie like me coming into the industry. I believe, Tom, you came to the agency in 1998.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

That's correct.

SPEAKER_03 2:19

Yes, and so I was I came in 2001. Tom was here, gaming control board was operating, the casinos were open. So, Tom, thank you for joining me today.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 2:31

So let's start by um learning a little more about your work and what you've done over the years here with the Michigan Gaming Control Board. So, Tom, and I'm calling you Tom. Your name is John Tom Boucher. John Thomas. But we all call him Tom. Um so, Tom, um, you were the very first regulation officer at the Michigan Gaming Control Board.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

That's correct.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

However, you started your career with the New Jersey Gaming Commission. So take us back and describe your time in New Jersey and your ultimate move to Michigan.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Okay, so I started my my time in New Jersey in the Division of Gaming Enforcement in 1988. Wow. Uh so I worked there for 10 years, uh, learning all I could about all the regulations of casino gambling and all the ins and outs and all the uh things that people were doing to try and manipulate the machines to their benefit. And doing so, we've went through a lot of uh painstaking efforts to thwart those behaviors, all the way from the build out there's which came into play in the middle of my career in New Jersey because they weren't always there. Right. We had some that were side by side, and then they finally integrated them into the machines, and then people were trying to manipulate those, and I don't want to get into too much of that because I don't want people out there doing it. Exactly. So I learned a lot about what people were doing and how to how they were manipulating things, and so we tried to work on that, trying to get that ironed out.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

Okay, and what made you move to Michigan?

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Uh funny story, I met my wife online and uh she lived here, I lived there, and it was time for me to move on. So um I worked there for 10 years and I came here. I've been there here ever since since 98.

SPEAKER_03 4:12

Okay, which is it's very interesting because you know, online dating today is different. Yeah, because I started with AOL. Yeah, the the dial up, right? Right?

SPEAKER_01 4:23

The dial up, absolutely. Um, while I was trying to do that, actually I was trying to get hired in the week that you guys were voting on gambling here.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

Wow, so they were pretty confident that this well they were hoping it was going to go.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

So uh that's when I came over here and try to uh get you guys to bring me on board.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

Okay. Well, what was that moment like coming to Michigan as a regulation officer? And how did you go about shaping a role that didn't exist before?

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Yeah, coming on board was interesting because um the gaming lab started out in Brewery Park. And then from Brewery Park we moved to the FBI building. From the FBI building, we moved to Albert Kahn building and from Kahn to the building that we're in here, which is Cadillac Place, we were in the basement, and then we moved all the way up to the 13th floor. So I moved to this lab four times.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

Okay, all right. Yeah, I came to the board when we were in the Albert Kahn building. Right. Yeah. Um, Tom, how was your role evolved over the years? What are some of the most significant changes you've witnessed or and or implemented firsthand?

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Okay, so when I came on board, we had no gaming equipment to test any games with. So I had to order the uh ESD guns, which are electrostatic discharge guns, and put about 50,000 volts out there because people have stun guns and tasers, they want to play with the machines and try to alter the game. So we had to make sure that the games were not actively accepting a kind of a charge to manipulate it in any kind of way. And then we also uh made sure all the bill validators weren't taking any money and then you know pull the money back out like piggybacking. Um when I first came in, I had to write all the approvals for the cards, the dice, the tokens, the gaming chips, the tokens that we were using, and make sure they had all the correct any counterfeiting codes within. And make sure that the coin comparators that were accepting the coins accepted only the currencies that are here in Detroit. And each coin comparator is adjusted based on that size of that token. And each token was for the you know, the nickels, the dimes, the quarters, and all that. We're all different metallic contents. So they weren't you couldn't accept um, let's say a nickel token from Motor City over MGM, and you couldn't do it or Greek town. Um, I was here for the first truck when it came in from the manufacturer. Uh we had 200 games on board and it was at the MGM Grand, which was across the street from where it is now. Yeah, there were 200 games on board, and uh we had to check them all in and make sure they got to where they needed to be in the casino.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

Interesting. And I uh if I recall um back during those days, not only were the the boards had the EPROMs, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Yes, every board out there had EPROMs. That's one of the different technologies that we brought on was not only were we testing the ePROMs and using the SHA codes, which in New Jersey they used the binary code completely. We came here and we started using the the SHA 1 codes or the SHA-0 codes actually for all those programs. And then we went switched over to the SHA 1 because it's a lot more secure. Then we moved from that into the GATT, which has no EPROMs, it's just a matter of hooking up the cable to inside the game to be able to require the information from the game for all the GAT signatures.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

Okay, and here at the Mission Game and Control Board, you all built a machine, basically, that's used out in the casinos, a program, I should say, that we use out in the casinos to test those.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Yes, and right now we have over 94,000 programs in our database that have SHOT codes. All the SHOC codes are unique to the program they belong to. You know, you can't just put two programs in there that are that are different and be the same. SHA 1 code.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

Right. And what you all establish is to test against those codes, what we have in our database versus what's on a physical machine itself.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

It actually looks it up on that list to make sure it's an approved one, and then it comes up and tells you it's approved and what data was approved on, if it's been denied or withdrawn, all that information will come up on my screen.

SPEAKER_03 8:17

Very good. And then like as I said before, this is something that um the gaming lab built here in Michigan. Very good. Um, Tom, let's spend a little time talking about the evolution of gaming and regulation. So when you started out, the the gaming landscape looked very different. What were some of the biggest regulatory changes you faced early on?

SPEAKER_01 8:40

So we wanted to be able to protect the public's interest by uh sealing all the EEPROMs in. Okay, because there were different people out there that may managed to manipulate the game from inside the game by gaining a key from somebody. And by doing that, they were able to sneak in a little device that went over top of the EPROMs and cause the jackpot to happen. So to protect against that, we I create the sealed tape. And the sealed tape had a serial number on it and the the uh the casino that it belonged to and its own color for each one of the casinos so that uh it couldn't be manipulated like that. And we sealed games up from day one, and finally we got away from that and we allowed the casinos to monitor their own stuff, the Foxwatch on the hen house. We still come out and test and we randomized, we random select machines out there for the ROs to verify.

SPEAKER_03 9:29

Yes, now I remember this tape, right? I remember this translucent tape that had an MGC Bill logo on it, it had a code on it, and then you had to take it off and tape it over the EPROM, and sometimes that seal would break.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Yeah, because this is a heat shrink tape, also. So as the board heats up, it gets brittle. So that's how you know somebody was trying to tamper with it.

SPEAKER_03 9:53

Yeah, so when you first applied it, if it broke, you had to start over.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

And you just really just peel it off of there and put the new one on, but they had to notify us if they broke it.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

Exactly. If they broke it.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

If I broke it, it's one thing, but if they broke it, a whole different deal.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

Yes, yes. I remember us going out to the floor and sealing a lot of boards. Yes. Or they used to bring the EPROMs with the board to our office in that um magnetic bag.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

It was a plastic sensitive for electricity.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

Yes, you know, I always call it tin foil. Yeah, it looks like tinfoil, doesn't it? Yes. Um, they used to bring to our office.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Yes, electrostatic bag.

SPEAKER_03 10:32

Yes. Okay. Um and fast forward to today, what are some of the most impressive technological changes you've seen in gaming?

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Well, in gaming now, um, we have internet gaming. And that of its own is its own little miracle of how we can keep track of people that are in our space. Everybody in Michigan can only gamble on the Michigan games. They can't just go to another state and gamble on the Michigan games because it won't work because we have the geo tracking geofence. Yes. It keeps people from outside gaining access. You actually have to be in the state and you have to be registered with those casinos.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

Absolutely. And of course, since that whole time we've gone away from what people used to have are the coins.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Yes, we've gotten away from tokens. See, one of the differences from New Jersey to here is in Jersey they actually had true currency. Here we always started out with having tokens, which puts less harm to the person that's moving those because they're just tokens not worth anything until you can cash them in. Where in Jersey you had true U.S. currency, and it always made it a hard time for us to try and track down what's going on with those coins and where they're going and who's got them and who's slipping them into their shoes and everywhere else. And there you had two bodies of power you had the casino control commission and division of gaming enforcement. And they were like sister companies working together to get the same project finished, but both had to sign off. Here, um, to me, it's like an omni god. We have control over everything. There's two sides to that story, good or bad. Um, right now it's been working for us for what 28 years almost?

SPEAKER_03 12:06

Yes, a long time. And Tom, how has regulation kept pace with this rapid evolution? Were there times you felt like the rules were struggling to catch up?

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Good question. Um, sometimes it's we're still in that struggle. We are trying to keep up with everything that's going on. Got manufacturers trying to bend the rules just enough to get their product in there, and they don't care about the consequences. So we try in the lab to really look at everything that they're proposing and try to mold over between all of us. We all work together cohesively to accomplish the same goal.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

And comparing what a courts, what they're trying to do with the administrative rules.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Yes, and they keep trying to bend that and they keep trying to make lawyers take their side of the story, you know. Plus, you also have a lot of places that are opening up their own little shops trying to do gambling. That's why we have the criminal investigation section doing what they do. They go out there and they try and find these places that have illegal slot machines, you know, because they have if if they have illegal slot machines, they are not paying taxes.

SPEAKER_03 13:09

Absolutely. So yeah, they're not paying taxes, and there's not the same protection. Some of the protections that you're speaking about today, those same protections don't exist when these illegal um sites open up.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

That's correct.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

Okay, Tom. So looking back, are there any developments in gaming you never would have predicted when you first started?

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Internet gaming was one of them. And um getting away from the seal tape was the other. Because to me, that that was always there to protect the patron from you know anything nefarious happening. However, um, we've gone through all the correct measures. We make sure that the casino is responsible for it. We go out there and test. After they put the software in, um, anytime that we have ROs that need to test games out there, they have full access to be able to do that with a tech from the casino. We do nothing on our own. We have no access to the inside of the machines.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Very good. And what does a typical day look like now in the gaming lab? How does that compare to the early days?

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Okay, so we're still testing software. Okay, anytime they do uh a program change, anything coming out of the storage, anything coming from a manufacturer, I'm after testing those games three days a week.

SPEAKER_03 14:22

And why are you testing those games?

SPEAKER_01 14:24

To make sure they're putting in approved programs. We have some casinos that like to put the the programs that are unapproved and they became unapproved or withdrawn by the manufacturer. They send us the thing, we look it over to take a look at all the paperwork and see why they're saying it's unapproved. They want to they don't want it approved anymore. And then we send out our letter to all three casinos and the manufacturer saying, yes, we agree with this and it's has to be taken off the floor. And then we give them a date. We don't just like go for, oh, you're done. Depending on the severity of the problem, you got one day, 30 day, 60 day, 90 day, 180 day, and these are different time frames for different reasons. Okay, so if you had an ongoing problem, but it it was like 700 games on the floor. You have to give them time to ram clear those games, set them back up, set all the options again, because once you ram clear, all the options are gone. And it takes time to do that. You know, some games take 15, 20 minutes for it to boot back up. So if you have 700 games, you can't do them all all at the same time. Even though we give them adequate time to get that done, sometimes they're still scrambling at the end trying to get the last few done.

SPEAKER_03 15:34

Okay. And in addition to the machines that you go and test, like new technology, new games, games coming out of storage, you also test like each casino probably has a what 3,000 slot machines.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

That's correct.

SPEAKER_03 15:51

And so you also test a percentage of those machines.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

The casinos are required to test 5% of the floor. We have ROs that are testing 17% of the floor every month. Uh last year alone I tested 1,500 games by myself.

SPEAKER_03 16:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Yeah, it's a big undertaking. You know, I'm there three days a week, but it's a lot of work. And I enjoy the work. I'm not complaining about that at all. I I love the job. You know, I have a great organization I work for, and I think that we have adequate controls.

SPEAKER_03 16:22

Okay, which is great, and I wanted us to share that with the public so they know, you know, Michigan is probably one of the strictest regulated states in gaming. We modeled ourselves after New Jersey. Yes. So it was kind of a good match bringing you.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

That's that's what I loved about this place, is it's modeled after that. So it was not that hard stretch to move right into it.

SPEAKER_03 16:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

And take it out as me being there.

SPEAKER_03 16:46

Right. And unlike any other industry, as I tell people, um, where your regulation officers are on site, they're we're constantly in the um casinos. We're testing the machines to ensure that they're following the guidelines. So it's safe and fair for the patrons.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Absolutely. That's our part of our motto.

SPEAKER_03 17:06

Um, many people don't realize like uh a jurisdiction like um Nevada don't have regulation officers on site, on property, testing. Those regulation officers go out when there's an issue.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

That's correct. Um, that's one of the things that I like about what we do here. We serve the public by going out there and testing these games. If we have a patron that has a complaint about a game, we can go take a look at it. Is it a legitimate complaint or is it just, you know, one of those things? Most of the time, I said 99% of the time, it's a legitimate problem when they have a problem. Like that, we test the games, though. We test the software. If the software is okay, then the game is okay. People, when they read the regulations and they say, well, payback percentage is between uh 80 and 100% payback, they're thinking about $80 on $100 or you know, whatever. No, it's not that way at all. There's there's slot math behind it all. So when you say the game is at 80%, it's based on 10 million handle pulls. So 10 million handle pulls, 80% of that is 8 million handle pools are okay. And then the last 2 million are are not. They're just they don't pay anything.

SPEAKER_03 18:11

Okay. All right, good lesson there. Um, Tom, are there any standout investigations or cases that left a lasting impression on you?

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Oh man, I've been in this industry a very long time. Um, there's been a lot of them. A lot of them are, you know, uh stuff that we do. Yeah. Things happens all over. Yes, it's not just one instant that's going away. You know, the other one that really stood out to me was the keynote in New Jersey, where um the Nevada people, Nevada gaming regulators had figured out that there was a a cycle to the keynote. And if they could get the right cycle in there, they would they could dictate what the next set of numbers to win are. And uh it was funny because I was on the shift that day. We had just finished working on the Imagineering Kino games because they had rebuilt the data the database itself. Um, two of the drives had gone down. Well, we had to spend all day there sitting with them as they rebuilt it. Later on that afternoon, the Nevada people came out and they were able to dictate what the winning numbers were going to be after that.

SPEAKER_03 19:17

Okay, interesting. So, Tom, what's one aspect of gaming regulation that that you think is widely misunderstood by the public or even by those within the industry?

SPEAKER_01 19:28

I would still say that the payback percentage. That's one of the things that confuses a lot of people. How do you get that? I thought it was just like you're out of a hundred. You know, it's 100% is based over 10 million handle pulls. That's a lot of handle pulls. We're not talking about coins in, we're talking about handle pulls. Okay, there's a difference between the two. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

And you know, you always get this question, and and citizens always ask me the same thing. And so let's dispel the myth. Is there any particular set of machines that pay off more than another? Like you'll hear people say, Oh, the one that's near the cage pays off more.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Okay. So, as I've told people in the past, the best slot machine is your own bank account. You put the money in, guarantee return. Okay? Other than that, there is no guarantees in this business. Let's these casinos didn't get as big as they are by giving away the house. Okay? So there is some slot math and some truth to some machines pay a little bit better if they're closer to this entrance or down that hallway. And then they play a little game of manipulation, moving things around. Move them chess pieces around so people can't find, and then they find those machines again, but they're in a different area, so they play other games. They're trying to get those people into those areas once they find machines that are doing well for them. Um it depends on the denomination, how many coins they're putting into it, you know, max play versus one at a time, you know. You run into a lot of that. But they do have the casinos will move themes into pro into play depending on the time of year or an event or something. So if they 4th of July, they'll put out the red, white, and blue games. Well, everybody's gonna go out there and play them because they're being trying to be patriotic in their own mind. So I'm gonna play this because I I I believe in the flag.

SPEAKER_03 21:11

You know, what about if I rubbed the machines?

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Yeah, rubbing machines, putting trinkets on it, all that kind of stuff has no effect. You might think so. I'm happy for you. You know, they try to put magnets on the game. We've tested the games by putting magnets in here and doing this, that, and the other thing, um, electric shock, everything, to try and to see if it can be manipulated. And we've tested against all those. And you can't do anything with them. But the actual trinkets on the game, you'll see people rubbing the game and doing all kinds of funny gyrations just to you know, make them think they're going to win the next one and they don't. You know, it's always the next handle, always the next game, always the next, always the next. And that's what keeps the money away from the patron and into the consumer's pockets.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

So the bottom line to it is gambling is for entertainment purposes only. That is all it's for.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

It's only supposed to be entertainment. Entertainment, you know, even though the industry dictates otherwise.

SPEAKER_03 22:03

Okay. Um, Tom, in your view, what is the gaming industry doing well when it comes to regulation? And where's there still room to grow?

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Wow. We always have room to grow. We're always learning something new, always coming across something new. Sometimes people find a way to manipulate a machine. Okay? We've had people, because they can buy machines out of state and bring them into their basements and then try like heck to try and manipulate this thing from outside of the game. It doesn't work well for them. They've wasted a lot of money, but there are some that actually get through and get some. Like early on, we had hoppers, and hoppers held the tokens in it, so they would split out the coins into the tray, and you hear the ding in a tray. The whole the whole philosophy behind that was to keep the people hearing the ding in a tray. They'd love to hear the ding ding. Ding ding ding ding, and that's all that mattered to them, you know. As long as that was going, they knew they were doing something right. So when they finally got around to it, some people are using what they call a monkey paw. The monkey paw, they would stick it inside the bottom of the machine near the hopper, and it would let you win some, and then it would hold back on the lever that counts it, and the more would come out. And then after that they'd stop because there it has a timeout feature. So um that's that's some of the things they had out there that was going on. Okay. Some of the other ones I really can't talk about.

SPEAKER_03 23:24

Yeah, well, good thing we went away from coins, right? Um looking ahead, Tom, what trends or challenges do you foresee shaping the next decade of gaming and how might regulators need to adapt?

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Always try and stay on top of it. The next time they hear something going on with it, don't just blow it off. Look at it, evaluate it. Find people in the industry who know something about it so we can gain that knowledge and keep going. Okay. We can't just stop and say, oh, we know everything because we don't. I don't know everything. I have not seen everything. And I've been around 38 years in gaming. There's a lot more to learn. It always is, always will be. You know, we've had people out there try and manipulate the uh ticket in, ticket out stuff, you know, by taking a photocopy of a ticket and cashing it out real quick before the person that actually has the ticket tries to cash it in. Because that ticket is only accepted once and tells the system it was accepted once. Then you can't get it paid out anymore. Those tickets are also heat sensitive because they're all going through thermal printers. Well, after a period of time, that print will come off that ticket.

SPEAKER_03 24:32

Very good. So that's a lesson to you all who saving tickets. Don't do it.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

So somebody doesn't come by and swipe your money. You know, early on as fight, because they used to have people that were collecting coins and buckets, and somebody said, Oh, look, you drop something over there, and they take their bucket of coins and go up to the cage and cash them in. Um you got a lot of people trying to launder money through the system, too. You know, they put a whole bunch of bills in the game and cash it back out. That's money laundering. Um, because they take it up and then cashing it back into the cage and getting the money back. So they're washing the money.

SPEAKER_03 25:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

There's a lot of things that that happen out there. Um, I gotta be careful what I say because I don't want them using that against the casino.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

Absolutely. So, Tom, for those considering a career in gaming regulations like um a young person like myself, nearly 25 years ago coming into the um industry. What's the one piece of advice you'll offer? Take my job.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

I love this job. I love everything about this job. I love the people here. I think they're great. Everybody's got a great mind to look at things and objectively look at it, not just like, oh, but the people in this industry, people that work for the gaming control board are the best. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

I agree with you. Um, Tom, after all these years in the industry, what keeps you motivated and passionate about your work?

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Retirement. No. Um I've always had this knack of wanting to be able to catch the bad guy or catch the things that are making things go wrong and figure out what they did so we can reverse engineer and fix the problem. So that keeps me going.

SPEAKER_03 26:12

Okay, good. And so now we're approaching um, as you just said, retirement.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 26:18

Um, that's why it was so important for me to get you on the podcast um to talk about your years of experience here in the gaming industry. And want to thank you, right, for all your training, all your knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Yeah, done a lot of training. Trained all the regulation officers that are out there, and ones previous to them, and yourself and a whole bunch of other people included.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

Yes, and we just we definitely want to thank you for all you've done for this industry, not just here in Michigan, but also in New Jersey. And um, is there any other parting words you would like to share with the public um before we end this podcast?

SPEAKER_01 26:57

I would say if you want a business that's challenging, this is it. If you want to work for an organization that's great, this is it. Okay? I can't stress that enough. And we've done work for other agencies, our agency has because like when we were laid off for a period of time when COVID was here, we were working with another agency and we were watching how they took care of their people. And uh, we've actually went forth and said, if you're doing all this stuff, you've got to keep track of how many you're doing per day. So you know if your numbers are coming down or just staying stagnant. They took that in and they started using that as well. But here it's a it's just a great place to work. The people here are great. You always feel like you're welcome. Nobody's backstabbing here to get anywhere. You know, you're gonna you're gonna move ahead if you just stick to your guns and go.

SPEAKER_03 27:44

Absolutely. Well, Tom, thank you for joining us and for sharing your incredible journey from pioneering a new role at the Michigan Gaming Control Board to helping guide the industry through decades of change. Your insights shed light on the critical work that keeps gaming in Michigan fair, secure, and innovative. For our listeners, we hope this conversation gave you a deeper appreciation for the people and policies behind the Michigan gaming industry. If you enjoyed this episode of Double Down Michigan, be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. And leave us a review to help others find the show. Thanks for tuning in. Until next time, keep playing smart and stay curious. And again, Todd, thank you so very much for your years of service. We know you got another year to go. Yes, right? One year. One year to go. And he's in countdown mode. And again, just want to thank you for all you've done for the gaming industry and for the Michigan Gaming Control Board.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

Thank you for having me on.