Episode 34: Understanding Gambling Addiction and High-Risk Populations

What drives someone to take a chance—and when does that risk turn into harm? In this episode of Double Down Michigan, MGCB Executive Director Henry Williams talks with Dr. Shane Kraus, Associate Professor of Psychology at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Dr. Kraus shares insights from his research on gambling disorder, addictive behaviors, and mental health among high-risk populations such as U.S. military veterans and young adults. Together, they explore the science behind gambling addiction, the challenges of treatment and prevention, and what regulators, clinicians, and communities can do to protect people from gambling-related harm.

You can learn more about Dr. Kraus’s research here: www.unlv.edu/people/shane-kraus 

For anyone who may be struggling or knows someone who is, help is available. You can find free, confidential support by calling the 1-800-GAMBLER helpline or visiting our agency’s website at Michigan.gov/MGCB to learn more about our responsible gaming initiatives.
 
 

 
 

 Facebook: MichiganGCB
Twitter: @MichiganGCB
Instagram:  @michigangcb)
LinkedIn: michigangcb

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Honey, did you pay the rent this month? Because I just received a late notice. Sorry, what what's that? Wait, are you gambling online again? Me? No. Not at all. If managing the bills and your betting has become a challenge, self-excluding from online gambling or sports betting might be for you. Learn more at don'tregretthebet.org, a message from the Michigan Gaming Control Board. Have a gambling problem? Call the National Problem Gambling Helpline at 1-800 GAMLE.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

On the Double Down Michigan Podcast, we explore topics related to the gaming industry in Michigan. Host Henry Williams, Michigan Gaming Control Board Executive Director, discusses responsible gaming, gaming legislation in our state, current trends, and more. We feature special guests from the gaming industry so you can get the inside scoop. Be sure to subscribe to Double Down Michigan, a podcast by the Michigan Gaming Control Board to stay up to date on the latest in gaming. Thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

I'm Henry Williams, Executive Director of the Michigan Gaming Control Board. Today we're diving into the science of gambling addiction, what we know, what we're learning, and how that knowledge can help guide responsible gaming policy and public awareness. Joining me virtually is Dr. Shane Krause, Associate Professor of Psychology at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, and one of the nation's leading researchers on gambling disorders and related mental health conditions. Dr. Krauss' work looks at the behavior, biological, and social factors that contribute to addictive behavior, especially among high-risk groups like veterans and young adults. We'll talk about his latest findings, the role of research and prevention, and what all of us can do to help reduce gambling-related harm. So, Dr. Krause, welcome. Thank you. I really appreciate you joining us today. You know, let's start by getting to know you a little bit. What drew you into the field of psychology and more specifically into researching gambling disorder in addictive behaviors?

SPEAKER_03 2:32

Sure. So I got my PhD, clinical PhD, in Bowling Green State University in Bowling Green, Ohio. And I did my internship one year clinical in Ann Arbor at the VA hospital. And uh so since I've been in graduate school, I've been really interested in addictions. I was in an addiction lab that did a lot mostly substance use. Um, but in graduate school, I had this kind of crazy idea to study actually behavioral addictions, particularly sexual behavior and pornography. And I did that for my dissertation and did some interesting and kind of new work there. And that actually took me to Yale and I did a lot of research at Yale there as well. And but during that process, I realized a lot of people also had issues with gambling. And behavioral addictions are things like gambling, you know, sexual behavior, the these other non-substance use behaviors. And I just started doing the work and I fell in love with the research. There was very few people in the space at the time, and I thought, wow, what a great place to do new research and kind of make my own way. That made sense. So yeah, been doing it for gosh over a decade now.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Okay, great. Um, Dr. Krause, gambling disorder is sometimes called the hidden addiction. Why is it so often overlooked or misunderstood, even by those who might be struggling with it themselves?

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Yeah, so that's a great question. So I think the reason we call it hidden addiction is so, unlike, you know, when I teach I teach addiction in graduate school to students, I do lots of training. I I'm a clinician as well, psychologist. And so, you know, when you we treat substance use, so alcohol, let's say heavy alcohol use. If I have a patient who's been drinking for four or five days, very heavy, and I see them, I'll say, wow, I can tell I think you've been drinking. But with gambling, you know, you could go out here. I'm here in Las Vegas, I can look out my window right now. I have a actually strip a view of the strip, which is like a very cool kind of strip uh view. And uh, you know, I could go spend$50,000 and I'd look the same, right? So you don't necessarily look different, but when you're using substances, you often do, particularly when you're using excessive amounts, right? So the other thing is that people with gambling, it's often what I call a slow burn or slow process. It starts out very slow, often it's for fun or recreational issue, no issues. And then maybe they have a little slippage or they're having little gambling struggles, but it doesn't kind of come on really fast the way substance use, so opioid use disorder, someone might three to four weeks already have tolerance for um, you know, with a medication or opioid and really start to go after, you know, using more and more. With gambling, it's years, right? So, so, and people often go eight or 10 years before they seek treatment, if they do seek treatment for it. And they're actually more likely to treat, seek treatment for depression, anxiety, or alcohol and drug use. And if we screen for gambling, we catch them. So that's why it's hidden, because we don't talk about it. And the reason why is because it we judge it to be morally bad. So, right now, you know, we've made a lot of great progress for alcohol and substance. If someone says, hey, I have an alcohol problem, you say, I understand. There's been a lot of research on that. It's it's a chronic condition for some people, and we have empathy and we have kindness and we work with them. Good. With gambling, though, if we asked, and they've done the research, they'll ask, you know, lots of people, surveys, and they'll say, Well, is gambling morally bad? Does it mean moral weakness? And 80% of people who will do the survey say, Yes, it's bad. So we judge food, weight, sexual behaviors, right, and also gambling to be morally deficient, right? And it's a it's how our society judges people, and it's not fair or accurate given that gambling is an addiction no different than substance use. Um, so it's really uh what causes stigma and why people don't get help, right? We judge people for having a gambling disorder negatively, but maybe are more forgiving if they have a substance use. And I think there should be no distinction.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Dr. Krause, is it that um society doesn't see people with a gambling problem? Is it that is it that they don't see the the physical addiction that a gambler may have? Because since they can't see it psych the psychologically, they can't see it, um, they can't see the physical withdrawals as if you're using uh a substance. Is is that why society really don't focus in on gambling as an addiction?

SPEAKER_03 6:39

Yeah, so great point. So, right, you think about we have the fentanyl, you know, when we see people, you know, dying from fentanyl overdosing, we we we see it. With gambling, it's very hidden, right? So most people who have gambling disorder will and gambling will hide it for years. Money is their either gambling online, they're hiding it. So they don't see it. So we don't see the consequences until it really hits, gets quite bad, right? And that's when, you know, they have the$4,000,$400,000, the bankruptcies, the house is getting foreclose, they've attempted suicide, right? So so you're right. I would say that, you know, substance uses are also faster. So people are more likely to have the health consequences and the the risk for death and overdose, right? Faster than gambling. Gambling is a slower process, but I would argue it's equally destructive, you know, and and think of homes that are broken. People, how many people have lost their housing, their children, their jobs, their careers. I mean, it's still equally devastating. But you're right, it's a different and people think, oh, well, they should have more control over it, right? But we know that gambling is an addiction, right? Which is why people struggle to control it.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Right. Okay. You've also studied how gambling problems often overlap with things like PTSD, um, depression, or substance use. What have you learned about how these issues connect and how that can complicate recovery?

SPEAKER_03 7:56

Yeah. So, so what we know, and I always say I say this a lot to my students, problem gambling is is like bananas. It comes in bunches, meaning if I treat someone for gambling problems, gambling disorder, they're probably gonna have depression, anxiety, and a good chance a third of them will have alcohol or substance use. So they have a lot of, they come with a lot of stuff, right? And it's often because the gambling has got worse for over the years, which has more consequences, increases the depression, anxiety, the substance use. Um, so I would say that's probably one of the big reasons. But what we also know from research is if we look at longitudinal research, so we follow people over time and we say, well, what causes the chicken or the egg? And what we know, it seems very clear that mental health issues come first, and gambling often comes as a way to cope with stress, anxiety. So for military, I do a lot of work with military veterans with severe PTSD can zone out at a slot machine or do something like that for hours and not and avoid their PTSD symptoms, right? We know that we want to treat the PTSD first, right? So I think it's just a coping. It's called maladaptive of unhealthy coping, right? And that's really common for military. But I say that pathway of childhood traumas, childhood addictions, and going into gambling often are there. And I think it so it makes it complicated. So you have to treat them together with what we call concurrently. We don't treat, I don't say, hey, I'm gonna not talk about your your PTSD and treat your gambling. I'm actually gonna treat them both at the same time. If you have depression, I'm gonna treat that too, right? And sometimes your depression, you started gambling for fun and excitement because you're depressed, but your your gambling financial har issues make your depression worse, right? And more isolation and it gets worse. So they're both interchangeable, right? So so that's what makes it challenging. But again, I would say treatment absolutely works and you know it's there's lots of, I always say there's lots of hope. Every day I see people, you know, change their lives and do it really well. So, you know, there's lots of hope.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yes, absolutely. And one of the areas of your research focuses on high-risk groups like military veterans and young adults. Let's start with veterans. What makes this population particularly vulnerable to developing gambling problems?

SPEAKER_03 10:05

Yeah, so this is a work that we've been doing for about four or five years. And so, and this is I was in the VA as a researcher and as a clinician uh before I came to the UNLV. So I've also worked in the VA and I have a lot of clinical experience with veterans as well. And I would say that uh it's a couple things. So one is that veterans we've looked at have more have a lot of family history of gambling. So before they went in the military, they had a lot of family members who were gambling. Um they had a lot of child adversity and trauma and difficult experiences. And we know trauma is a strong pathway for problem gambling. So a lot of people who've gone through traumatic experiences, also deployments, things like that in the military could also be a risk factor. Um, so I think it's kind of those those factors. The other thing that is kind of the big secret, but it's no longer a secret because I keep telling everybody every time I do an interview, is that the military bases allow over the overseas military bases allow slot machines. There's they make about a hundred million dollars, yeah, in revenue overseas. Uh, so you have a lot of young military folks deployed overseas, isolated from their family. That's when a lot of stressors happen. And a lot of younger military folks just kind of gambling for boredom, you know, stress relief. And that habit kind of is not a good habit to make. You know, if you're gambling uh for entertainment or for fun, that's not necessarily a problematic thing. But if you're gambling for stress relief, boredom, isolation, those aren't very good. And so we've seen some of our work uh where we're starting to see bad, I call bad habits. They maybe don't have gambling when they're 22, 23 gambling disorder. But by the time they hit 30, they're out of the military, they're in the community, they can't stop gambling. Well, that's when we see them really have a full problem. Uh, and if you have trauma and PTSD and other things, that only complicates uh, you know, it's intertwined with gambling, right? If that makes sense, because people use gambling to escape. Escapism is a big issue. Most people don't escape at a casino mentally, they just go there and enjoy the food and have fun. But when you're gambling to escape your life or escape your stress, you have a problem, right? And for our veterans, we see that pathway for PTSD.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

You know, initially, Dr. Cross, I was shocked to hear about the slot machines at the base. But now that I think about it, it's more probably more so because of um the safety of the troops um to bring as much as that life onto the base so they're not off base in a foreign country. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

Yeah, exactly. So it's meant for entertainment, you're right. And again, most people, again, I to be very clear, most people in the military who gamble don't have an issue. But the one concern that one one of the criticisms I've I've kind of expressed about this is that, you know, if you're gonna offer gambling, you know, opportunities or slot machines, you're gonna want to have information on how to make sure people can respond responsibly. What are the warning signs? What what do what do we do if we you, you know, you you spent your paycheck quickly and you shouldn't have, right? And they don't do that, right? They don't have any, and and I know this from our published work. They don't have trainings, they don't have any briefings. It's like, you know, we're not gonna have a conversation about but for alcohol, they do. They tell us, you know, hey, don't drink too much, don't go on liberty and you know get intoxicated. But yet we don't provide any knowledge about responsible gambling or gaming strategies. And I think that is a disservice for these young people where education is huge. Knowledge is really, really good for people to know, and they don't do that. There's nothing there, and that's a problem. So, again, if you're gonna have the slot machines, okay, then you have a responsibility to provide resources on how to do that safely, you know, the best you can. And then have if someone gets in trouble, how do we get them help? Right. And that they don't have right now set up. So that's where I think my criticism is.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Okay. And let's continue on that topic. So when veterans do need help, what kinds of barriers do they run into when trying to access treatment or support?

SPEAKER_03 13:52

Yeah. So so I would say, so like we mentioned earlier, stigma is a big thing, right? So unfortunately, you know, a lot of uh people with military service who need help don't often get, they'll wait years to get, you know, PTSD, mental health, substance treatment. So when veterans have gambling issues, it's no different. So often it's the stigma, the judgment. They'll go to the VA and they'll tell we've had, we did a study where they said, Oh, I have this issue with gambling, but they also had an alcohol problem, and all the clinician want to talk about what's their alcohol problem. And it's like, yeah, but I'm actually, I came in for gambling. No, no, but we have alcohol treatment. So a lot of it is where to go. There's not an VA right now does not have a lot of great, I don't think has enough resources for problem gambling. Um, I think it's more treatment resources for people in the community, what in the military, um, how to have a conversation with family and veterans and their family members. Uh, we need, you know, greater awareness, campaigns, knowledge. It's just not, we're not talking about it. So veterans don't know that's okay to talk about gambling problems. It's everyone, it's okay for everyone to mention they have a gambling problem, right? There's no no everyone, if they need help, should get help, right? And and that kind of and that's the message that just isn't happening. I mean, we're we're doing great work on that, and we're making some headway there, but that's the message. Everyone should get help if they think they have an issue, right? Because help will make you will help you. You know, treatment does work. There always is things to help you.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yes. So, Dr. Cross, you've also looked closely at younger adults. But online sports baby and social casino games now so easy to access. Yeah. What trends or warning signs um are you seeing among that group?

SPEAKER_03 15:31

Yeah, so I would say, you know, I was looking, I was even looking at some of Michigan's uh gaming uh data and money, and and then you've actually so you're I I just saw that you're 2.4 billion uh for 2024, but a 27% increase from 2073. So so I would say, you know, gambling itself is going up, lots of you know, casinos are going up, online gambling is going up, but what's ads are going up, there's lots of accessibility. So the issue is when we increase access to something that's an addiction, addictive behavior or substance addiction rates go up. So what I so for example, if I increase access to alcohol and make it cheaper, more affordable, more accessible, alcohol use disorders will rise over time. Not a huge amount, but they'll go up. Well, so here in Nevada, we've increased cannabis, we have legal cannabis. Well, cannabis use disorders, not surprisingly, are going up. So when as states legalize and allow more opportunities for gambling, online gambling, sports betting, all these things are growing. That means you have to know that there will be some people who will increase risk or have more problems. So my biggest concern is the ads. I think they're being heavily marketed to young men. Uh, they're often misleading in the language they're using. Again, gambling, like many other behaviors, has risk. Sometimes the risk is very small. There's always a little risk. Um, and you want to make sure that people aren't thinking sports betting, for example, is how you make money. If they say, like when I talk to people, say, well, what advice do you give? And I'll say, well, you know, if you can afford to take$100 out of your wallet and spend it on a game sports betting book and you can afford it and pay all your bills, then go. So if that makes you happy, if that brings you entertainment. But if you want to wager that money because you think you can't lose, right, to make a thousand dollars, I have a problem. And the issue of the content of ads, the proliferation of ads, the way it's it's being geared towards generally younger men, uh, is my problem, right? It it if if people know gambling is not a way to make money, it's entertainment, right? So if you come here to Vegas and you want to see a show and you're gonna spend money on lots of things, that's a good thing. It's entertainment. But we've gotten away from the entertainment and really framed it as a way to make money for a lot of this, right? And that's my concern. And I think that's the language I would, there's not a lot of research on that. We need to kind of step back and say, hey, you know, you can do these things, they're legal, but let's be careful. We have we are not framing it as a way to the, you know, risk-free. Like I'll see like free$200, risk-free at you bets, all that is not is misleading. There's always risk in gambling, but there's also risk in get and alcohol. There's risk in lots of things, right? It's just letting people have all the information, you know, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Yes. And as a regulator, we're always thinking about how research like yours can inform policy and outreach. To that end, do you have any suggested research topics or areas we could focus on here in Michigan?

SPEAKER_03 18:24

Yeah, so so I would really a couple things. So a great question. I would first be asking you to, I would really encourage you to look at ads, right? So again, people add advertisement's not a bad thing. I don't judge, I don't think sports betting ads are necessarily bad. But I would look at the content of ads, the where they're being targeted, because we don't know what that um implication is for the people who get exposed to ads. So I'm a child of the 80s, right? And I remember they had all the members, they used to have the the old school magazines with all the smoking ads. And then we realized, like, hey, you know, we shouldn't have all these cigarette ads for kids can see them. And we said, well, that's not so good. And we knew the research was pretty clear. If you the more exposed kids to cigarette and alcohol ads, the more they want to drink and and smoke. And so they kind of said, let's let's have responsible ads. Okay, great. Well, today with sports betting, it's actually out of control. So online ads are everywhere, it's just uh proliferating. Um, so it's really about generating and making money, but we need to be having safety nets set up. So, in again, for Michigan, you have two and a half billion, right? So um, you know, I think that's handled. I don't think that's your your revenue, but uh but you have a 27% increase from last year, including in slot machines online. I was kind of looking at it. And my question is, but I couldn't see, and maybe I'm wrong, but what what treatment programs are available and free and available in Michigan for Michigan, you know, for people who live there? So in Nevada, you know, we don't have as much money as I'm preaching always for more money with legislators. But right now we have several free treatment centers where no matter regardless of income or anyone, if you or your family's been affected by gambling, you can get resources. And I think that's kind of a safety net, right? And I think for states that are increasing their revenue, need to say, who are my community stakeholders' treatment programs to get these people into help? Because eventually it's got to come. It's about a three to five year wave when the when the treatment wave comes. And right now you're kind of an early in the wave, just like Nevada, you know, we've been in the wave for a long time. And now we're seeing more people going to treatment. So I would say you're going to, as you increase your revenue and access, and you are, you're gonna also see a small but steady increase in act people who need treatment. And I don't, I didn't see, and I could be wrong, I don't want to misspeak for Michigan, but I I want to see clear expectations of treatment providers, resources, knowing what treatments are helping people with problem gambling. You don't have to do very comprehensive treatments for people. Most people just need some information, maybe some brief counseling, but you also have an obligation to do that if you're increasing your you know your gaming revenue and your access, right? And everyone is across the board, right? This is the same thing I've said everywhere. But I would be looking at sports ads, youth. What what are young children? I have an elementary school child, and and yet all his my son's friends and all of them know about sports betting. They could probably name three or four of the apps. And yet, what does that mean for young people seeing sports betting as a way to make money? Like again, I would be having that conversation and in Michigan and with education schools. What education are they providing for kids around, hey, what does this mean? You know, I think that would be helpful for Michigan as well.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Yes, yes, and we do. We have the uh Michigan Health uh Michigan Department of Health and Human Services where we the gamer control board funds we were funding three million, we just doubled it. Uh for treatment um so individuals can um can't afford treatment that the state of Michigan pays for. Um we're getting ready to start a um uh a youth responsible gaming campaign. Um So we're constantly trying to see here in Michigan the best methods to reach young people and problem gamblers and help direct them right to the proper resources because the game controller itself isn't a treatment-oriented organization. We're a regulatory body. But the funds that we do provide to um treatment areas, we definitely have doubled that amount, and we continue to work with those different entities and those partners to ensure that we're providing um some services to the citizens here in Michigan. And I agree with you. More is better.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

Yeah, but I would say I think that I mean, for what you're telling me, that sounds fantastic. I think doubling it is kind of seeing, you know, you're you're you want to just get ahead of it, right? Again, I always tell people most people gamble don't have an issue, and you can't prevent everyone from developing things because you know you can't control for people's histories and families and all these other factors, but you could just do your best, you know. You can we can always try to do our best, and that target's always changing. But when when when some states, and I would say I really am and delighted to hear what Michigan's doing, because I would say Michigan sounds like it's really good choosing to be a leader now in terms of funding and opportunities, uh, and as it, you know, all states should, right? Who are doing this. So that's exciting. Yeah, I think that sounds great and uh yeah, awesome.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

Yes. So Dr. Krause, you've also studied um the brain science behind gambling. Can you share a bit about what you have learned in that area and how that might help people who are trying to recover?

SPEAKER_03 23:43

Yeah. So I okay, so I would say that that, you know, gambling is an an addiction, you know, like a substance use. It's similar to substance use, a little different. Obviously, you're not taking a substance, you know, you're not eating a lottery ticket or a uh chip, you know, a poker chip. Um, but we know that it kind of does, in a sense, hijack the brain. So in the brain, there's this kind of pathway. It's called the ventral tridum pathway. It's a pathway in the brain that really helps us with decision making and our emotions, and it gets kind of tied in with addictions. What happens is when you initially do something, you say, oh, you know, you have an interest and you look at it, oh, okay, I'll have a drink, and you think decision making, oh, well, oh, is should I or should I not? Um but eventually when you make habits, the more you do a a drug, a drug or a substance, the more you get this pathway kind of crystallizing your brain. And it gets harder and harder to stop that, you know, that behavior, right? That's why it becomes what we call compulsion. Like people who struggle with drinking can stop drinking, the not stopping, the uncontrollable. Well, gambling's something similar too, right? Um, so it's something similar where people get cued or they have craving and urges, and gambling's something similar as well. Um, I think the challenge with gambling, it seems like, is the emotional part of the brain gets really hijacked. So when someone's gambling or in it, they can't turn it off, like just like for substance use, but it seems to be really, really intense. So the decision-making part of their brain, right? Okay, and the the emotional part of their brain, okay, uh, they don't talk anymore. All right. And this is what we we call this kind of the dorsal triatum connection, right? And what that means, so this is why when people are gambling, they can't stop or they get that, they're almost stuck, you know, at the slot machine for hours. And it's because they're just kind of doing that. And the other thing that's on different than substance use is that when someone who has problem gambling, uh, if you're playing, you have a near miss, right? You almost win, but you don't. Well, someone who has a problem gambling or experiences it, a near win, a near miss almost feels like a win. It's like, ooh, ooh, it keeps them. Versus for most people who don't have gambling, like, oh, oh, I didn't I lost, I'm out. But for someone with gambling, that near miss keeps them going because it keeps that emotional part of their brain activated, right? And they'll keep taking those chances and risk, right? Um, and so this is part of what you know, people we think about addictions where um when we first like something, oh, I like it, and you do it. And then, but when you have an addiction, you often don't like what you do, but you do it because you want it, you need it, right? And with gambling, a lot of the people who are really struggling who who are gambling not because they enjoy it anymore, but because it's a compulsion is really a problem, right? So so that's often a signing is like, well, I'm not enjoying myself anymore. It's like, well, then why are you why are you doing it? Right. And that is because that part of your brain has kind of been hijacked, right? That emotional part is taken over, right? If that makes sense. And that's what's so hard about you know, people who are in it. They just can't walk, I can't walk away. And it's not their fault, but that's what treatment can help us do. So we know um there is psychotherapy that can teach them mindfulness, the psychotherapy ways to to de um to stop gambling. There's also medication for some people uh who have that emotional intensity or that craving for gambling. It's a medication called now truxone. And it works on um a part in the brain called the mu receptor, which is actually a similar receptor to opioids as well. And it helps block that. And that's when we provide that medication, the people kind of don't have the craving for gambling or the urges. Now, we don't normally prescribe medication for most people for gambling, but if someone's really crawling out of their skin and struggling to do, you know, with gambling, we can prescribe that and also do psychotherapy to help them or encourage them to go, you know, gamblers anonymous and other things like that for treatment.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Yeah. Okay. Um, so do you see technology like um brain imaging and digital behavior tracking or even AI playing a role in identifying or preventing gambling problems in the future?

SPEAKER_03 27:40

Well, I think, yeah. So I would say a couple things. So one is that I think the first thing we can do is what you're doing, greater awareness that gambling is a problem. You know, some people have a problem with gambling and it's an addiction. It's not they're not a morally bad person. So the great, the more awareness we have about the signs that people have problems, starting to have issues. Remember, people don't just fall into gambling two weeks later. They have a massive problem, right? It's a slow process for most. So I think better screening, more education, I think is really going to be helpful. Yes, you can use AI, you know, you can use technology to try to identify people, right? On like online sports books. We've kind of done some research around looking at payment transactional data, people's, you know, betting. You can use technology, but I actually think it goes back more basic around how do we educate people around what is problem gambling, right? What are the warning signs that you might be having some issues? How do we get family members and people to talk about gambling, right? And I would be getting into the schools and the churches and everywhere you can get you have a conversation. Um, and so I think we can do that first. Uh, I think that would be really helpful. Yeah, but there's many ways to identify people. But remember, gambling, part of what makes it hard is people hide it because there's so much shame about it. You're not, they're not gonna be the same as like if they tell you about a different problem. So you have to be kind of creative. But the more space, the more we legit, you know, tell people it's okay to have a problem and say it in all the other spaces, not just, you know, from the you know, the gaming commission, I think it's great, but from the local churches and from the schools and from, you know, you name it, uh, that's gonna make it, I think, more accept acceptable, right? And I think so, I think that's really what I would do from a regulator perspective. I think company uh casinos and online sports voting uh casinos need to do more. And I think there's machine learning, there's strategies like overdrafts, number of payments. We've we've, you know, if you made seven uh deposits to your account in a day, I I know that's that doesn't sound very good, right? So are there strategies, but they need to be researched well. As a researcher, I don't want to say something if I don't feel it's confident with empirical research. So we need to fund big data, like we said AI, kind of these big approaches to understand money transactions, but we need to also understand how to like reach people in Michigan who don't say that, you know, who aren't getting help, right? There's lots of people in Michigan who have a problem who don't speak up. And the question is why? With veterans, we know they're often feeling stigmatized, marginalized, they have a lot of shame, guilt, and other issues. Well, in Michigan, what are the things that Michigan, you know, people in Michigan are struggling with? What is your rural community? Like I lived in Michigan, I going up to the UP. What does that community need, right? What does Detroit need? And these are things you need to be thinking about. What are culturally competent and appropriate ways to speak to community members from all the different backgrounds, right? That's the research and the work you also need. So you got to do all of it, right? It's kind of a multi-pong thing. The good thing is you guys are funding treatment and these projects. So so this gives you an opportunity to do that. I would just be encouraging you to be asking about like, you know, what is a stigma campaign look like? What is, you know, research on treatment, what is what is the rural population look like and need who are often neglected, you know. Even in Nevada, we have a huge rural population and they get very little attention, and that's not acceptable, right? You know, so we're working on that too, right? How do we get people in the communities, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Absolutely. And Dr. Krause, before we um wrap up, you know, I just want to thank you for joining us and for the important work you're doing. Yeah. For anyone who wants to learn more about your research or about resources for gambling addiction, where should they start?

unknown 31:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 31:21

So if they if they want to know uh work about my research, if they I think if they Google my name and put UNLV, my lab will come up and a lot of our articles are available and publicly available. Um, so I would encourage them to do that. I think um if they're in Michigan, I think they should look at you know your website and and what's provided in Michigan. I think they can also look at national things like the National, I think, Center for Problem Gambling, the NCPG, has a lot of resources for people as well. So I think there's there's different resources, but I would say a lot of our work is publicly available. It's in the community. You just have to start putting if you're interested in gambling and veterans, just put gambling and veterans, Kraus, and I I bet you'll probably stuff will come up. So we try to have everything publicly out there available if possible. And if people have questions, they can also contact me and the work that we're doing. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Okay. Dr. Krauss, thank you for sharing your expertise and for the important work you're doing to deepen our understanding of gambling addiction and recovery. As we've heard today, gambling disorder is complex, shaped by brain chemistry, behavior, and circumstances. But research like yours helps shine a light on the pathway to prevention and treatment. Here in Michigan, the gaming control board remains committed to promoting responsible gaming and supporting efforts that protect the public from gambling-related harm. For anyone who may be struggling or knows someone who is, help is available. You can find free confidential support by calling the 1-800 GAML helpline or visiting our agency website at Michigan.gov forward slash UGCB to learn more about our responsible gaming initiatives. Dr. Krauss, it's been a pleasure having you on the show today. And to the listeners, thank you for tuning in. Until next time, stay informed, play responsibly, and take care. And again, Dr. Krauss, just want to thank you for um taking the time and sharing your research and information with our listeners.

SPEAKER_03 33:22

Thank you for having me.