Bad Idea Social Club
Bad Idea Social Club
Luke Grill: Every Damn Detail
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Luke Grill (chef, restaurateur, sommelier, 1983 Restaurants) sits down with Aaron McCall to talk about what it means to build something people can feel. He gets into cutting his teeth in some of the most demanding kitchens in the country, how dangerous it is to follow the crowd, and why holding his convictions is non-negotiable. They talk about the tension between art and business, building spaces that satisfy more than just hunger, and why the details nobody notices are exactly the ones that matter most.
Keep up with Luke Grill:
1983restaurants.com
IG: 1983restaurants
IG: @obstacleno1
IG: @seventysixholland
IG: @publiczeeland
IG: @lovejoyholland
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This episode is supported by:
Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
Merchants & Makers
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Writer/Producer/Editor/Host:
Aaron McCall
aaronmccall.net
IG: @aaron_mccall
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Co-Host/Sidekick/Photographer:
Joe Matteson
themattesons.co
IG: @joe_dustin
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Music:
"Noises" by Mike Mains & The Branches
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Support the Podcast:
Buy Merch
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Follow Bad Idea Social Club:
badideasocialclub.com
IG: @badideasocialclub
I'm here to learn. It's not about money. It's about pursuit of knowledge. And I want to see how they create this art on the plate, right? And by the end of it, they're like, well, you know who the psychopath is that works for free for a month. Right? Instead of like enjoying his break.
SPEAKER_04I can't seem to make them go away.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, let's talk about your mug.
SPEAKER_02Is that a Daphna mug? Yeah, this is a Daphne mug.
SPEAKER_00You look why are you why are you always talking about my mugs? I have a mug obsession. And if I could, my mug collection would be three times as large. It's like an active thing I can use every day that brings me back to a moment. It's what I love about photography is a photo can take me back to a thing as long as I'm coming back to that photo.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, dude, I love that.
SPEAKER_00It sounds stupid, but mugs are like a very active decision. If you're not just doing a fucking collection of just like one style of mug, like it says something about you. That says something about like the style you like. It says something about an artist you interacted with.
SPEAKER_02Like the like I'm very particular about like t-shirts, or I'm like, you know, I have so many prints that I'm like, I kind of have to rotate. You know what I mean? So it's like I don't really have like so it's like that's not always the answer, but a mug, man.
SPEAKER_00I love shit like that. That's why my office looks the way it does. I am a I am a tchotchke motherfucker. God I love it. And mugs are just part of that.
SPEAKER_02God, I love it.
SPEAKER_00Um Luke's like that too. Well, you're kind of jumping the gun a little bit, but don't you say it? I'm just I'm realizing that, yeah, like he he values that too. Sorry, do your thing. You shut up for a second.
SPEAKER_02You shut up for one second.
SPEAKER_00Go ahead.
SPEAKER_02Shut your fucking up. You can't you can't hurt me. I love you too much. Challenge accepted. I'm just kidding. I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. Uh hey everybody, welcome back to Bad Ideas Social Club. My name is Aaron McCall. And I'm Joe Madison. And as Joe, uh, as Joe scooped, we packed up our gear and trotted out to Holland, Michigan to hang out with Chef Somalier and restaurateur Luke Grill. Uh now Luke's the guy behind 1983 restaurants uh and spots like 76, Public, Lovejoy, and Obstacle Number One, which is where we had this conversation um over some cocktails at 10 a.m. Yeah. I fucking love my talked about how how working in some brutally intense kitchens uh helped shape him. Uh chasing knowledge and experience before a paycheck and how he learned to balance artistry with the uh with the reality of um of a restaurant still having to make a profit, but also not at the expense of the dining experience. So, you know, talking talking to Luke kind of makes me think about how much of the world has shifted towards um convenience over craft and and real experience. Like like the kind of thing that like really changes you.
SPEAKER_00The moment you enter obstacle number one, it's like you can feel the intentionality. It's like it's screaming from the the wallpaper, the the bar material, the everything. You know, you can tell there is there's a method behind every single detail. And I truly believe that that stuff sticks to people. That they leave their thinking, oh shit, everything you point to in his restaurants, he has a story behind why it's there and how it ties back to his past or how it ties into the story of the restaurant. I wasn't sure if you were lagging or if you were just waiting for me to do my job. Oh, that's good. But before we dive in, don't forget to follow wherever you're listening. Leave a five-star review, and don't forget to tell your friends.
SPEAKER_02Also, this thing runs off of uh merch sales and listener support and reviews. So help us out, go do that stuff. And um, here's my conversation with Luke. All right, so let's just not do the weird, awkward, how do we start a conversation thing? Okay. Let's just start talking. Let's cheers, man. Cheers, absolutely. What are we what are we drinking?
SPEAKER_01So this is uh it's uh our namesake cocktail, the obstacle number one. And when I was developing the concept for this particular restaurant, I wanted a cocktail that I thought could stand the test of time, but also something that had a little bit of personal relevance to me. So um my last name is Grill. I never wanted to name anything after myself, though. And so there's never, there's no grill in any of my restaurants, anything like that. And so I wanted to have subtle ways to kind of and a little homage to you know my history, my background, all those things. So, like opsle number one, for example, my favorite band is Interpol. The first song I ever listened to by Interpol was opsle number one. So I thought what a cool way to kind of, I don't know, kind of give myself a little bit of a kickback.
SPEAKER_02Uh kind of give yourself a little rub there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and so then this cocktail, um, I wanted to be a whiskey-based spirit because whiskey is my favorite spirit. But then I grew up, um, my grandfather was a carpenter, and his favorite wood was walnut. He loved using walnut um to it was it's a really hard wood. It's beautiful to work as a carpenter, and he made some beautiful artistic wood pieces. He would do these amazing tables and just amazing carpentry. Well, this cocktail is a play on black walnut. There's a black walnut bitters, there's a black walnut liqueur, and then there's also a uh cardamom and black walnut tincture we make house house made. And so it's kind of this really cool interplay with um the black walnut flavors, but then also um in Michigan there's a lot of sugar maple trees, and so I want it to be kind of local at the same time. So it's this it's a maple, black walnut, and bourbon flavored cocktail. It's the first cocktail I made for this restaurant, and uh, we sell gobs of it. People love it, and it's like really smooth, you know? It's it's like dangerously smooth. Well, I you want to give me the the secret on how to make a cocktail smooth for all your people. So when people make a cocktail at home, what they don't realize is there's a lot of burn of alcohol, right, that hits you right here in the back of your throat. Yep, that's how I do it. Yes. And when you're in a cocktail bar, people don't want to taste that. They want just something nice and smooth and buttery and silky that just kind of goes down where they don't have that burn, or is what people call it, right? So in professional cocktail bars, you what's called pre-dilute every cocktail. What that means is you add some water to the cocktail when you're making it before you put it over ice. What that does is it actually dilutes the cocktail a little bit. There's still two ounces of liquor in here, but then when you taste it, it doesn't have that burn because there's more water content. And then also when you're drinking it, if it's pre-chilled, when you put it on the big rock or whatever it is, it doesn't get too watery. And so you get the combination of a smoother cocktail with less burn, and it also doesn't taste watery when you're done drinking it. So the last drop is as good as the first. And most people don't realize that. And so water is the key to a really, really good cocktail and pre-dilution of cocktails.
SPEAKER_02So, dude, you're a little techie, but you know, dude, your your palette is so much more advanced than mine. I like, you know, like I would make I was I was just gonna say, I'll make something like this, but I'm never gonna make anything like this. Yeah, um, but like I'll make something at home and it's just gonna hurt. Yeah. The whole way. Correct, you're right. Yeah, no, totally. And at home, I'm like, this is fine. Yeah, this is good, dude. Um, but but your palate, like, it's not just I mean, it's not just food, it's not just uh cocktails, like you know your way around a bottle of wine.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, actually, absolutely. I I I love wine. I was actually um really into wine when I started my career in Chicago, and kind of one of the things I wanted to do was be a complete restaurateur. And I saw myself, you know, in the kitchen, cooking and doing all those things, but then there was this other world out in the front. And in particular in Chicago, there's a huge wine kind of influence in all the restaurants. And so I started saying, I want to kind of get into that world. And there's what's called the Court of Master Somaliers, or they're based out of London, England. And it kind of started as these people saying, Hey, if we go somewhere in Switzerland or America or Argentina, we want to know that the person selling us wine knows what they're doing. And so this group got together and said, What if we kind of started a coalition or a group or you know, called the court of masters, or anywhere in the world you are, if someone that's in this court, in this kind of fraternity, if you will, we know they know what they're talking about. And so I kind of got into that, started, you know, going to tastings and learning about wine. So I'm actually a certified Somalia through the court of masters. Um, there's four levels, and like for example, the master level is like only around roughly 300 in the whole world. Oh shit. Yeah, so it's a really, really, you know, exclusive club. And there's advanced, which has about probably four or five thousand, and then mine, which is about 15, 20,000 people. And again, these are rough numbers. These years ago, I I could be completely wildly wrong, but those are general give or take. It could be complete bullshit. It could be, yeah. But basically, there's not a lot of people to do it. But what it does is it gives you kind of some cut spa and some some credence that you know you're talking about. And so I really got into wine. Um, I've got a wine cellar in my house, all my restaurants have reserved wine lists. And, you know, it's funny because wine is getting less popular with younger generations, but they've been drinking it since the time of the Bible and Jesus, right? And so if you think about it, I love Game of Thrones, right? Walk me through how humanities exist without wine. It doesn't. Yeah, it was safer than water. And so I tell people all the time, like, water has, or sorry, why is water too? Wine has such a place at the table. And I really wanted my restaurants to be about this synergy between food and beverage, where it's not just one, it's both that kind of make a complete meal. And so all my restaurants, I said, I want a complete cocktail program, beers, but also wine. Because, in my opinion, to have a really great meal amongst friends, it includes a bottle of wine. And I think that it just it complements the food so well. Because like cocktails are great, but they're either too sweet or they're too strong. You know, they're more of a great way to start a meal. But once you hit your meal, you want something that's got natural acidity and structure that gives you the ability to kind of go with the food, and wine does that better than any any other beverage.
SPEAKER_02You've also kind of cut your teeth at some pretty serious restaurants.
SPEAKER_01I have, yeah. Yep. So one of the things that I kind of said from day one was I want to work for the best people I can work for. Because if I work for some serious people and some people that that you know don't fuck around, if you will, in this industry, I'm gonna learn from them, right? And so, and one example is I worked at a restaurant called True in Chicago. Um, this was before the Michelin guide was in America, so there were no Michelin-starred restaurants in America. This is before that time. If it had been, there were the two main restaurants at that in that era in Chicago were Charlie Trotters and True. And it was kind of one A, one B with who's the best restaurant. And so when I went to work for them, um, it started off as an intern. I interned them when I was at Michigan State, and uh I went to Michigan State for hospitality business. Before that, I went to the CIA Culinary Institute of America out in New York for for culinary. And I was kind of that crazy guy where I wanted the job so bad, I wanted to work at true so bad that I said, hey, I'll come work on my Christmas break, my spring break for free. So my uncle, you know, he worked in Chicago. I slept on his couch for a month straight, got up at like five in the morning, went to work, worked until like midnight, every single day, my entire Christmas break, my sophomore year at Michigan State. And everyone's like, dude, why are you working for free? And I'm like, because I want to work here and I want to show them I'm a hard worker, I'm here to learn. It's not about money, it's about pursuit of knowledge. And I want to see how they create this art on the plate, right? And by the end of it, they're like, well, you know who the psychopath is that works for free for a month, right? Instead of like enjoying his break. Um, but they offered me um an internship that summer. That went great. And my goal going to the internship was get in get a job offer, and I did. And so I went to work there after college, um, and I learned an immense amount. I worked insane hours, but um, you know, Rick Tremano was the chef after a period of time, then um LaRanque Gras was another chef. He was formerly from the fifth floor in San Francisco. He opened L2O in Chicago, which was three-star Michelin. Um, and these are the guys you're working with, right? Scott Tyree and Chad Ellengood, both master somaliers for the quartermasters. They both were there in the wine program. Um, Serge Krieger and Adam Seeger, some huge heavyweights in the in the hospital industry. You know, Serge worked mainly at uh um for Daniel Balud in New York City before he came to Chicago. And these are the people I'm working with every single day. Yeah, just some motherfuckers. Yeah, absolutely. And it was intense. I mean, I'd see people get fired in the spot because they drop a glass on the floor. They're you know abusive conditions sometimes, in my in my opinion.
SPEAKER_02I've heard I've heard uh I've heard rumblings about that from people in uh uh hundred percent in that space.
SPEAKER_01It's different now, but like you probably saw the stuff with Noma. I don't know if you saw it recently, but um, you know, restaurant by the name of Noma in um Los Angeles, formerly from Copenhagen, where the owner actually had to step down and you know, a lot of difficulties because of just work culture. But the thing about the restaurant business, and I'm not complaining, I learned a ton, so I'm not in any ways mad about what happened, but it was intense. And you have to have thick skin because they come to work and they are not fucking around. I mean, they're trying to go for to be the best restaurant in the country, or if not the world, and you have to work for these people and understand the intensity of it every single day. And my poor wife and my kids, I mean, I'm a pretty intense guy to this day, and a lot of it's because of the places in New York City or like true in Chicago that I worked at. And when you work for these people, you know, it's kind of they always taught me like iron sharp sharpens iron. Yeah. And like, is your iron blade gonna cut theirs or is their blade gonna cut yours? Which is a really intense kind, you know, kind of concept. But it was kind of one of those, like, how are you gonna kind of figure this out? And so, yeah, I mean, I was I I worked probably 100, 110 hours a week. Um, it was insane, but the amount you learn is crazy.
SPEAKER_02And did you did you ever have that feeling of like, man, this is a lot, this thing for me?
SPEAKER_01Um, no, no, I I think that from a young age, I always wanted to be in restaurants. You know, I had an easy bake oven when I was, you know, like a third grader, asked my parents for it for Christmas. Um, I really got into cooking at a young age. I started watching Emerald on on TV when I was, I think, a fourth or fifth grader where on spring break, and I was like, what's this? This is pretty cool. And then I started watching it. I loved it. I went to a couple of book signings, um, started cooking at home all the time. I was really into great chefs of the United States and great chefs of the world that are both on TLC. Um, and I just I looked at it and I thought to myself, these are people that get to take their artistic expression, put it on a plate, and they get to see people smile. That's cool. That's a payoff. That's cool, right? And it's not in their house. Like if you draw, you know, paint a picture, right? And then somebody buys it, you don't get to see them enjoying your art, right? Right, right. You assume they're going to, but you don't get to see it. When you're in a restaurant, it's instant gratification. So you're you're you're making it and then you're seeing them enjoy it. That's special, right? And so I kind of it's almost a drug in terms of like seeing people having that emotional enjoyment of your artistic form is cool. And so I think when I went to Chicago, it's because I said these are people that are the best at their craft, they're best at their artistic expression. I'll learn from them, right? And so, yeah, I think that even when you're working crazy hours like that, I knew number one, this two shell pass. Number two, I knew it was for a greater good in terms of I just put my head down. I never really tried to go for money, I always went for knowledge, right? And I think that's one of the things if there's younger people who are watching this, don't care about making money when you're young. Just try and learn. Because the thing is, is that when you're young, you're stupid and you're gonna do things that are not intelligent. Yeah. But then all of a sudden when you get older, you're like, wow, I'm really glad I learned that. Because if I hadn't, yikes, right? And so I think in the restaurant business, you know, it is sometimes can be a difficult culture, long nights, weekends, hours. But what you get in return is unquantifiably important if you want to become your own boss, if you want to be a restaurateur, if you want to open your own businesses.
SPEAKER_02Okay, well, how did we get here then? How did you get from working at these gnarly places to I'm gonna do my own thing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, this is a great question. So, you know, having worked in places in New York and Chicago, I realized after a few years, like, okay, I don't have the money, you know, my parents aren't gajillionaires, right? I don't have like, here's a million bucks, Luke, go open a restaurant. That wasn't my story, right? I grew up on a farm, my parents did wealth themselves, they supported me massively, but they weren't going to bankroll my first business, right? And so I knew, okay, there's no way I can compete with the, you know, the Levy restaurants and the Let Us Entertain you's in Chicago or, you know, all the different groups in New York City. And so I'm gonna have to find a wedding of my own. And so I wanted to work for an independent restaurant tour that I felt could be more like me. There's a gentleman by the name of Bill Roberts. He owns Roberts Restaurants in the Detroit area. And at the time he owned uh two restaurants and he was in the process of wanting to open a third. And so I kind of got linked up with him. I decided and kind of realized, you know what, Chicago is great, but I'm never gonna be here long term. I can't afford it. I need to go and find out how does an independent restaurant tour that's in a smaller market work and own restaurants. And so I mount met Bill. Um, I actually, believe it or not, had applied for an internship for him at the same time as when I applied at True as a backup plan. Because I'm like, well, if true doesn't get me in, I need to go somewhere, right? And Bill, in my opinion, is the best restaurant tour in the state of Michigan. And so I said, if I'm not gonna work at Let Us Entertain You with at True, I want to work for Bill. And then I got the offer the internship at True, which kind of led me to getting there, a job in the career and all that. So I ended up not going with Bill. But then when I wanted to leave Chicago, I said, I'm going to work for Bill. So I went to work for Bill. Um, he owned two restaurants, opened a third called The Town Tavern um in Royal Oak. He's kind of out of Birmingham, Michigan. He owns Beverly Hills Grill, Streetside Seafood. Um, wonderful restaurant tour. And he just does everything the right way, right? The thing I think was interesting about working for Bill was he taught me the ins and outs of how to run a small restaurant in a smaller market correctly, right? And how you do things a certain way, you don't cut corners. And I think similar to Chicago, you don't cut corners either, and you do things a certain way. But I think that when you're seeing a guy do it that's not, you know, 50 restaurants and worth hundreds of millions of dollars, it's different when it's only a couple of restaurants. And so um, I learned an immense amount, you know, and I think I I got to grow up at the same time, you know, when you're graduating college and you're only a kid, you make a lot of stupid mistakes. And I think Bill, one of the things I'm thankful for is he realized I had a lot of talent, but also I was an idiot, you know, and you know, young kids are cocky and they think they know everything. And I'm sure I was probably a fucking handful of the men walking. Walking around with this ego. Oh my gosh. And I I and part of the problem that made it worse too is I worked at these great restaurants in Chicago and Detroit, or excuse me, uh New York. And so I I knew I was pretty talented at restaurants, made it worse, right? And so I apologize if any of my former co-workers or managers are listening, you know. I'm different now, I promise. But no, it the thing is that things like how do you build a pro forma, looking at labor cost, looking at you know, beverage costs, looking at how to build beverage menus, how to build different food menus, how to take the idea of what a customer wants versus seasonality versus what makes money, and kind of juxtapose and interplay those things in a menu. Because one of the hardest parts about restaurant tour is you have what you want to sell, you have what the customer wants to eat, you have what makes money, and those are wildly different things, and you've got this thing called seasonality that comes into it too. And so the hard part about this is you know, one of the things I think it's unique about me and how I run restaurants is I consider myself a business person first because at the end of the day, it's just you're here to make money.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then unfortunately, maybe an artist second, because what I've learned over the years is, and I think Bill taught me this, is your art can be great, but if it doesn't return on investment, what's the point? Right. And so there's a lot of restaurants out there that are beautiful, wonderful restaurants that are artistic and gorgeous and serve amazing food and they're chefy and chef-driven, all this, but then they don't make any money. And I think the biggest thing for me was that Bill taught me is you can still provide wonderful art and make money simultaneously. And I think when I was at true, it was the opposite. It was the expression of art and from a culinary standpoint, putting something so beautiful on the plate to the Michelin guide or Relay and Chateau or you know, Forbes, whoever it is that's ranking me has to give me all the accolades because of what it is. And Bill said, Well, that's fine, but you also have to simultaneously make money. And so I think the last thing I would say that I learned is I saw two intrinsically different viewpoints on how to make a restaurant from a standpoint of not cutting corners, everything's perfect, like in Chicago or in New York, versus yes, but you also have to turn a profit. And so what I then did was I took both of those things and said, okay, how can I take the idea of this in Chicago or New York and this in Detroit working for Bill and combine it? And I think what I've created is a company that for me at least, I think is a really good happy medium of when people walk into my spaces, whether it be the interior design, the food, the service, there is an artistic element to it and a uniqueness and a boutique kind of quality to I think what Of try to create and procure, but we also make money.
SPEAKER_02Well, and it's so these spaces that you have, they're so rich in uh in story. Talk to me a little bit about, I mean, even the name 1983 restaurants, I know goes back to your family.
SPEAKER_01It does, yeah. Yep. I was born in 1983 restaurant, or I was born in 1983. And uh, yeah, and um, kind of funny story. When I when I created the logo, I went down to Ace Lansing to fill out the the form to form my LLC and I put restaurants plural. And she goes, Do you own multiple? And I said, No. And she goes, Well, why are you putting an S on the end? I said, Because I want to open more, right? And so I think from day one, I I kind of had this idea to do that. Um, and uh, and then like 76, for example, in my other restaurants, my parents were married in 1976. I kind of wanted to pay homage to them. So, yeah, to your point, you know, a lot of Lovejoy, which is right next door to us right now. I grew up on Lovejoy Road. Uh my grandparents, you know, had a farm there. Um, all my restaurants have definitely a personal connection to me. Um, and I think that's something that I've really tried to kind of add into my restaurants as a piece of me, but subtly in a way that people wouldn't know unless they asked the question, right? Um, but no, I I think that at the end of the day, getting back to the original part of the question was the interior design is a massive, massive part of I think how I view a restaurant. And I think one of the things that's unique with me is I don't want to say they're overbuilt, but kind of. I mean, all my restaurants are, I think, really beautiful. They're all dynamically different looking. And the interior design, I think, is a tremendously huge part of the DNA of my restaurants and what I want them to be and what I want to look like, right? And so you take Obstacle, for example, which we're in right now, um, just the wallpaper was over $55,000. What the fuck? Yes, that's just the cost of the paper, and that's not installing it. And my my interior designer and I, when we work together, she's like, Luke, really? And I was like, fuck yeah. Like it needs to have this connotation, this feeling of when you walk in here, you think you're in Chicago, right? And you know, like those drapes. Let's not talk about how expensive those drapes were and like everything in here. If you look up, there's actually a five-piece cron molding up on the ceiling where the wallpaper delineates. And then above that, on the ceiling itself, there's another piece of three-piece molding that goes around the entire perimeter of the ceiling. And there are little details like this where nobody actually notices it. But when you just kind of look in the space, it kind of frames where your eye goes up and stops. And it's all these little details, if you look around this restaurant, that not one thing individually, I think, makes the restaurant, but then you start adding them all together, and there's a richness when you're sitting in the space where if you're drinking a $23 cocktail or 21 or whatever it might be, you don't care. Right. Because I think that restaurants, I think it's more poignant today than ever. We have a responsibility to transform and have transformative abilities for guests. Restaurants have gotten so fucking expensive, and we're all to blame for it because I'll say it for everybody. Restaurant tours got greedy in 2020, 21, 22, 23. Oh, it's inflation. Oh, and but they just jacked their prices up way too much, inappropriately.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I think that we're all to blame for it. Believe it or not, I actually just lowered every price at public for lunch. Side note in my other restaurants, I lowered every price. And my cook's like, dude, you're crazy. What are you doing? I'm like, dude, that's too expensive. No one's paying $20 for a fucking sandwich. I'm sorry. It's too much money. It's hard to do. Yes. And you why you think you wonder why they're going to Chipotle or Shake Shack? I'll tell you why. Because they can actually afford those places, right?
SPEAKER_02Because they can spend $9 on a exactly.
SPEAKER_01And so I become more convicted than ever that a restaurant's job is to transform and create a transformative experience where it's not just being fed, it's how are you satisfying their soul simultaneously as feeding them, right? And that comes down to if you skimped on interior design, if you skimped on menu design, food quality, all these things go into it. When somebody walks into a space, you have to make them think this is not just food, it's an experience. And I think that creating an atmosphere that someone can sit in with their loved ones or their friends, that allows you to do that, right? And when you don't create that holistic experience from the second you walk in the doors, you're losing something, right? And so I think part of the reason, like with the obstacle, it's been successful is there was an intentionality that I had with wanting it to feel transformative. And so, like, for example, you walk in the host stand, you can't see the restaurant. When you open the door, you see a wall, right? And then when you do a 90-degree turn, you see another wall. All you see is the logo on the wall, right? And what a beautiful logo that is. It is sweet. Aaron McCall, everyone. Um does all my logos. Um, and uh when, but then finally, when you walk in the front, then you see the whole restaurant. But I think part of also, too, is there's this kind of like mystery of well, where's the restaurant, right? You can't see there's no windows, they're covered. And then you kind of turn the corner, and then finally you walk into the space and you're like, wow, like this is crazy, right? And then you already have this preconceived idea of like, okay, this place is badass. You haven't even had a menu yet, you haven't had a cocktail yet, you have no food yet, but you're in, but you're in, right? And then I think the other thing too of this restaurant that I kind of started, because it's the most recent one that I'd opened, was I said it has to be multi-sensory as well. So when you guys walked in, you said, dude, this place smells good. It didn't want to even open, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You smell your sight. Like we have several cocktails that have a kind of performative element to them with fire shows and big flames and all that stuff. So when you're in the restaurant, it smells really good. You see flame shows and different, you know, performative parts of the experience. Obviously, the aromas or the taste as well, but then visual. And I think what people forget about is when you're in a restaurant, the more senses that you can engage someone with, you got them, right? They're coming back. How do you get your me hooks into somebody? And I think the biggest thing is it's you have to have multi-sensory because at the end of the day, we're we're visual creatures, we're we're you know, audio creatures. The more of these senses that you can kind of keep hitting off of, it really makes somebody kind of really want to come back.
SPEAKER_02Well, when did it go from you know, simply cooking a meal to this?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, great question. And I think that's why I went to work for those people. Because when I went to work, you know, at a Jean Georges in New York City or, you know, for at True in Chicago, they were already doing that stuff. And this is back in the early 2000s. They were already starting to realize people want more than just be fed, they want experience. And I always told people, you know, they're like, why are you doing this? Why are you, you know, why are you working? It's like when I checked True, based on how many hours it worked, I figured out it was like $3.13 an hour was what I was making, basically. And that that was back in 2004.
SPEAKER_02So not Scrooge McDuck money.
SPEAKER_01No, it was, I mean, I was I was broke. I couldn't even afford groceries, right? I would eat family meal at the restaurant, and that was it because I couldn't afford food. You know, but the point is that what they gave me in return was the understanding and knowledge of where the restaurant industry is going and seeing this performative element of the restaurants. And I kind of realized like, I think there's a lot of validity what they're doing. And no, it hadn't been adopted yet wholeheartedly in around the country. And so I started to say, you know what, if I owned a restaurant, I think this is the future, is you have to give people more than just food, right? You have to give them again, like I said, how do you satisfy their soul? Well, it's more than just food. And so I think that when you look at the restaurant industry, there's been a lot of attrition, there's been a lot of restaurant closures. I think there's gonna be a lot more in the next decade. The ones that are gonna stay open are the ones that give you more than just food, right? And I think places that just try to say, hey, we have good food, you're smoked, like you're toast. And if if they were listening to this, I'd say you have to find a way to more than just have food. Because here's the thing there's a lot of really good restaurants all around Holland or Garden Apps that have great food. There's tons.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But then if you start thinking about, okay, who are the places that are really procuring and curating an experience where it's there's a handful thing, there's a handful, right? And they're all knocking the ball off the cover, right? And I think that's the thing is that it's the money is out there and the people want to spend it, but you have to give them a reason to walk through the front door. If you're doing the same thing as somebody else, why would they come to you? You have to give them a reason why there's differentiation between you and somebody else. And I think that, you know, it's kind of like with Poquito, right? Let's let's talk about it. I closed Poquito to reopen a new restaurant called Lovejoy. I love Poquito. Restaurant made money, every single year was open. It did great. But I looked at it and I said, Do I think that in five or 10 years Poquito is still going to be doing this well? And I said, no. And here's the reason why do people want to walk in the door to a restaurant? What's the predication on why someone comes to a restaurant to be fed? Right. And it comes into that what are all the things that go into why someone comes somewhere or not? And what I got back to is life's gotten expensive, tariffs, inflation, all the bullshit, it's getting ridiculous. I mean, just the idea of getting your car and driving to the grocery store and then getting groceries. Like, can we talk about does anyone on the This Listen to this podcast shop anywhere other than Aldi or Walmart? Like, who goes to Moyer nowadays? It's too expensive. Dude, I have all of my shit delivered because I'm not leaving. No, that's sweet. Yeah. I'm not leaving. I go to Aldi because I'm like, dude, I'm not paying for all groceries are crazy. But what I'm getting at is that it's gotten expensive. And so with Lovejoy, I said to myself, okay, if I'm gonna satisfy someone's soul, I have to also satisfy how hard they're working, how hard they work for their money, and is it worth what I'm asking them to sacrifice to come to my restaurant, right? Yeah, it's a show of respect for your customers. Yeah, it's a wild concept. You think about it, but if you think about it, how is somebody gonna have a soul-satisfying experience and be able to feel genuine hospitality if they leave my restaurant and be like, I can't ever go back there again, it's too expensive. I or I don't want to go back there because it's too expensive. Yeah, or I can go to the one school. Exactly. I did it, I'm done, I'm out. Correct. And so I think with Lovejoy, the what I said was, I need to create a restaurant where somebody can come and have a great meal and say, you know what, this was delicious, but I can actually afford to come back here. That to me is meeting a guest where they want to be met and understanding the whole idea of why we'll come back. It's not just food, right? It's not just a burger and a plate. It's it's you have to meet them where they're at and say, how do I create and procure this experience that is, you know, holistically, you know, kind of enveloping their entire essence, right? And so, like at Lovejoy, every entree is between 21 and 29 bucks. Every entree. You want steak, you want king salmon, you want chicken, a burger, everything. And it's it's I did it on purpose because I said I won't be able to come in here and say, it's 28 bucks for this and only 22 for that. I can I can spring six bucks. Yeah. Right? Whereas other restaurants, you'll see a steak for 38 or 40 or something for 32 or 33, you know, and these restaurants are starting to try and push the boundaries on what they charge for stuff.
SPEAKER_02I was gonna say it sounds a little bit like gouging.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it is, in my opinion. Like, you know, I won't name name restaurants, but I've seen restaurants in the area where they're trying to serve trout for 34, 36 bucks.
SPEAKER_02I'm not paying that.
SPEAKER_01Well, you can buy trout for like $8 a pound.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So do the math. If you give somebody a third a pound of trout, which is a it'd say half pound, let's get frisky. It's four fucking dollars on the plate for the trout. If you're at $32, do the math. That's extortion, right? They're they're they're just straight lacing somebody, you know? And so I think what I said was, hey, let's not pick cheap proteins like trout, you know, it's like lake perch, right? Again, being 100% transparent, you know, we pay $18 to $19 a pound for Lake Perch over at Lovejoy, right? That's expensive. So if you give somebody a half a pound of perch, right, you're talking nine bucks, just the cost of just the perch. That's not food cost, insurance, that's not labor cost, that's not utilities, that's not rent. That's just the cost of just the perch. Not even the salt, not even the oil or the breadcrumbs that go on the perch, just the perch. Well, we're at 27 bucks. That's a 33% cost on just the perch. Nothing else. Is that a good cost, Lucas? No, it's not, right? But here's the point: if you walked in the love journey and my perch was $35, would you order it? I wouldn't, it's too expensive. I'm not getting that. No way. Not happening, right? But the thing is, is that that's where it comes back to where Bill taught me as a restaurateur how to make money. And that comes back to menu mix. And we talked about originally about how do you blend making money as one bucket with what you want to do a second bucket with what the customer wants, which is a third bucket. And it's this really delicate, symbiotic dance of how do you blend these three things together that don't want to blend to create an experience that people want. And so every time somebody buys, I won't say it, but like chicken, for example, buy more chicken people. Um, that's how restaurants make money, right? There's things on the menu that make you money. Whereas things like our perch, for example, that's what I call a lost leader, right? It's a leader for us. We're gonna lose a little money on it, but we're okay doing that because it what it does for us, it kind of reverberates through the rest of the concept, you know? And so, dude, I get that.
SPEAKER_02I I don't know, it was probably a month ago or something. I brought my wife out here, yeah. And and we went to Lovejoy for dinner. I got the perch. Okay, it was amazing. I appreciate the pricing. Yeah, exactly. Right? That's the whole story. Yeah, honestly. Yeah, it was great. But what about this, maybe this fourth bucket, right? There, because there's Luke two. How are you getting your artistry in with the tension of running a business?
SPEAKER_01Fabulous question. So if you can indulge me, I'm gonna tell a little bit of a story. When I was at the CIA, Clarence of America, um, one of the really cool things about that in a university is you do one year of school, it's year-round, then you go on a nine-month internship, they call it an externship, where you're forced to leave the school for nine months, work somewhere else in the real world. And then after your nine-month internship, externship, excuse me, you come back for your second year and then you graduate. And so um I knew I wanted to own restaurants someday. I knew I again didn't come from you know a gajillionaire family could just here's millions of bucks whoever you want. So I knew I wanted to own restaurants in Michigan someday. Um so I chose to work for the Amma Grand Plaza Hotel Corporation. And so they had at the time the only mobile five diamond restaurant in the state of Michigan in the 1913. And I said, I want to work for high-end restaurants. I've been working someplace in New York City simultaneously while being at CIA, which is in Hyde Park, about 45 minutes north of New York City. Um and so I kind of wanted to continue working for the best I could find, right? So I chose work at, you know, Ama Grand Plaza, which is where the 1913 was. Well, anyway, um, about six months into the internship, it was a really busy Saturday night, and this guest wanted a horseradish cream sauce. And the chef's like, I don't have time for that shit. You know, it did not happen. I was like, Chef, I got it, right? I got a minute, I was in Garmanget that day, which is like salads, cold desserts, cold appetizers. I was like, I got this. So we went back to the walk-in, I grabbed some horseradish, some lemon, some dry vermouth, some burmeny, which is like a mixture of like butter and flour made into a paste that you can use to make quick sauces, a little bit of heavy creams and creme fraîche, all these different things. And I just started busting the sauce real quick. I had an induction burger around my station, made it myself, got a Tamir Chinois, which is like a fine mesh strainer, strained it through, put it in a little sauce boat, gave it to the server. And they had these kind of old school like doors with like the porthole kind of circle, you know. And uh so anyway, so I'm kind of sitting there like looking in the porthole, waiting for the guest to see the reaction. And the server walks it over, and they, you know, give it to the guests, they kind of pour it on their fish or whatever, and I see this big smile. And like right there, I was like, fuck yeah, fucking did it. That was awesome, right? That was so cool. I made that and they just smiled. Like I made their night, they're happy, they're excited.
SPEAKER_02It's huge too. And that feeling doesn't ever get old, man, because I I uh when I used to do like a lot of art markets and stuff, like you know, like you said earlier, you don't know once once something leaves, yeah. Uh the life that it has now. Yeah. Uh, but man, like when I would when I would do these art markets, um, to have somebody I don't know come up and talk to me about something I made and like why it means something to them, it feels like the same thing.
SPEAKER_01100%. I totally agree. And and so I think to answer your question, that fourth bucket is where do I get it? Is it's not all the time, but here and there, kind of in the shadows or in the corners, you know, at the distance, I get my little breadcrumbs here and there where I have those moments, right? Where I know that somebody had a good time, it be maybe an email or a card, or I'll walk up to a guest, or I'll come to my one of my restaurants at lunch or dinner and I'll see him smiling. There's lots of subtle, small ways that those little wins kind of pile up. And that's what drives me, right? Because at the end of the day, this is a really hard business. It has a hugely high failure rate, which is very widely, you know, publicized.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it's tough. I mean, I'm I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. This restaurant, the industry is very tough. I mean, restaurants are they're a brutal business, they're not for everyone. There's a reason why it's such an incredibly high failure rate. And, you know, if you look at substance abuse issues, divorce issues, I mean, it's got it all, right? And I think that you have to have that fourth bucket. And for me, I think as an artist, when I see that somebody when somebody resonates with what I've created, that's not for me, right? It's it's I I think at the end of the day, I think a lot of the creatives probably that watch your podcast and understand this will agree with me when I'm saying this is we want to be heard, right? We all have these individual, expressive, artistic people that have a voice, and we're all so different individually, but we all want acceptance. We want somebody to say, I see them for who they are, and they're perfect for who they are. They don't need to change, right? Because what they are is they're perfect. And I think that every one of us just wants somebody to recognize that what I'm creating is perfect and it doesn't need to be modified, right? And to all your Yelpers that that come at people, fuck you. Um, because I hate it when I hate it when people complain about stuff, when someone's trying their best to create something in art, right? And and I think at the end of the day, it's just you have to give people the grace for understanding they're putting themselves out there and they're trying to do something and express who they are as a person. The truth is that when you pour yourself into it, you don't want someone to I guess undress you like that, right? And so I think at the end of the day, we're all similar in terms of we want our expression to be appreciated, understood. And look, not everything's for everyone. That's okay. Then go find what you prefer and go there, right? And so I think that, you know, that's kind of I guess how I would talk about that, because that's one of the hardest things is when you have this fourth bucket that fills you, it's also difficult because there's people trying to attack that fourth bucket.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right. And and how do you kind of protect it for yourself?
SPEAKER_02How do how do you handle the um the rejection, the criticism, the bullshit of it all?
SPEAKER_01Um, with grace. I think that, you know, kill them with kindness, you know, the golden rule. I always tell my managers when we hire we hire on the golden rule, do one to others. And so, irrespective if someone's mean to me, says something horrible to me, we'll smile, we'll say we apologize, and you know, we'll we'll do better next time. What about you though? What about I think for me, what I've learned is I have to just like for example, like Yelp and all those rating sites, I don't look at any of them. Yeah, don't read the comments. I don't, I and I don't, and I can't because I care too much and it's too personal to me. I literally can't read them because it will it will ruin my entire month, right? And so it's really hard for me because I know there's probably people that that hate on what I do, and I think to myself, like, do these people know how hard I've tried? Do they know how how much time I've put into everything that I do and like how much intentionality is into every single facet of every single square inch of everything in any of my restaurants? And so that when they say something negative, I'm like, these people have no clue. And and the funny part too is that not to sound cocky or gotisco, but like, really, and you think you could create any of this, but my friend, sitting back on your computer at home, no, you couldn't. How's your grilled cheese? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. You know, and so it's like it's hard too, because it's you know, it's people that are hating on something that they can't even do, right? And so that that part of it, I think, also helps me understand. And I think the older I get, the more I, you know, I have four kids, I have a wife, you know, my focus is my family. And I think that I've learned if I'm true to myself and my employees and my family, that's all that matters. Yeah, let's do a little cheer ski. Cheers, dude. So I guess it's a cocktail, by the way.
SPEAKER_02Dude, it's so good. It's good, right? It's it's so hard not to just throw it back. I know.
SPEAKER_01They're dangerous. This cocktail right here is one of those ones where you could have three or four of these and no problem, real quick, and like it's dangerous.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so let's talk about this cocktail for a second because you kind of told me what was going on, but uh, I remember when this place first opened, this was one of those things that had like that presentation in the whole thing.
SPEAKER_01Correct. Does it still does it still come like that? It does, yeah. So right behind you, uh, speaking of another artist, Centuani, they're a local uh uh carpentry, carpentry uh company in the area. They built that, it's called a guardong. It's a French kind of like cart. And then those wooden planks that you see it on, um, what we do is we actually put the glass inside of that, inside of those little coquettes, those little cast iron coquettes, they are filled with wood chips, and we'll actually, it's a combination of black walnut, uh a little bit of maple, um, and uh apple wood, and we smoke that. And then we we just put them inside that cloche, which is that glass dome. And so we'll do is we'll wiggle that to the table, we'll take that hole, we'll put it on the table, we'll explain the whole situation, and we'll smoke a table side, and then we actually kind of like wave the smoke in front of the gas. It's really cool. It's sends the table, and that's how I've done it. Um, but again, it's one of those things where you know the clap the glass domes were custom made for us, the wooden cart and the wooden, you know, uh discs that Everything sits on that was custom made, all by local artisans, right? And the whole idea was we wanted to kind of have artists on top of artists on top of artists, all creating this piece of art that you consume, right? And um, yeah, it's since day one, it's been our best line cocktail, it still is to this day. People love it. Um, and I think it's fun too. And like it happens every once in a while, but my favorite thing is when somebody is drinking an obstacle one, listening to the song obstacle one in obstacle one, because it's on the playlist, it happens once a night. And so there's always a few people that'll be drinking an obstacle one while the song comes on. Every night? Usually I'd say at least a couple times a week. Love it. And they have no clue, like what they don't know what the song is. And so if like one of us is there, like, hey, just so you know, you know, um, because it's a great song, by the way.
SPEAKER_02God, that's red. All right, let's go topic happen.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, let's do it.
SPEAKER_02Kind of a kind of a hard turn. All right. When you're gone, what do you hope people say about you?
SPEAKER_01I'd say three things. Number one, I think I want people to say that I was a good dad. You know, I try really hard to teach my kids, again, the golden rule, how to be, you know, ladies and gentlemen, how to, you know, treat people with empathy and respect. That's my goal. I think number one I'd want to say is that my children are reflections and representations of me in terms of how I want others treated. You know, any one of the things I'm really big on is anytime we go anywhere, I always see my kids look them in the eye and say thank you, right? Having mutual respect for their people, um, you know, being a lady or a gentleman, I think that, you know, decorum, empathy, and compassion are things that are dying in today's day and age. And I'm trying to hold on to that as how I raise my kids. I love that. Yeah. And so that's one I'd say that is huge. I know what I would say. Second, I'd say is um that I was a beautiful artist when it came to culinary arts and hospitality. Um, I've done my my life's work is to create hospitality where people can walk in and feel like they're walking into my house and have a great meal and experience. Um, and I would love for people to understand that I did what I wanted to do and set out to do in my career, which was to do really well at this. Um, and third, I think, you know, I'm a Christian. Uh, I go to church. And I think that a big part of who I am is, you know, making fishers of men and, you know, leading more people to Christ. And I think that, you know, having my beliefs be a part of who I am is important. Um, we're all closed on Sundays in my restaurants. I go to church on Sunday, right? And so I think that it's something where it's not overtly obvious in my concepts because I purposely kind of want that separation of church and state if that makes sense, you know. Um, but I also want there to be kind of a unwritten, unspoken, hey, I'm guessing this person's probably, you know, a Christian or a religious, you know. And so that's something I think that my hope is that people talk about. Uh finish the thought. Creativity requires patience. Everyone has creative juices flowing in their mind, but you have to be patient and waiting for it to manifest into an expression that fits you, right? And I think that a lot of times people try to rush something, they try to rush art, they try to rush an idea. And I think that having the patience to just sit back and let it come organically. Let it bloom. Yes, is is the most important thing. This is maybe a loaded question. Okay. What would your last meal be? Ooh, great question. Um, oh, geez. Uh okay, I'd probably do a selection of items. Um, it would be a combination of some of my favorite, so I'll talk beverage first. Um, McAllen 50 year scotch. Yeah. A glass of that. Um, never had it, but it sounds pretty good. It's my last time. But you're going out, go for it. 100%. Um, my two favorite wines uh in California, Bond Plurbis. Uh Plurbis is a vineyard, single vineyard bud Bond. And then um in Bordeaux, Chateaubriand, uh, two Cabernet-based blends. Love both those wines. That's my beverage. Pellegrino would be my water of choice. And then for food, um I think that the Lovejoy Layer Cake, I think, would be my dessert. That's not mine too. It's so good. With brown butter gelato and bananas foster. Um, with those were the two desserts starting backwards. I don't know why I did that.
SPEAKER_02Dude, when I when I brought my wife out here to go there, it's so good. So we got the what's the one with the um with the with the cream base with the caramel on top? Yeah, the carolin cream. That's legit. So we we had that at the table, and I was like, why don't you put one of those pieces of cake in a in a box to go and then and then and then that was my breakfast. You're like seasoning. Oh, so good. That was the way to start the day.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And then for food, I would say it'd be uh kind of a combination of things. Um, there's a restaurant called the Cove up near uh Trevor City up um in Leland. They're fish and chips, it's a whitefish fish and chips, amazing. Um, I would have that. I would have some really amazing sushi, you know, some bluefin, you know, otoro tartar, um miso, miso uh sea bass, and then a couple last items. Um I would probably do a really perfect USDA prime New York strip a poiv. I think it's one of the best things out there if it's done well. Um and uh last but not least, I love spaghetti squash. I love spaghetti squash. Yeah, yeah, just like a maple based spaghetti squash roasted, really, really delicious, just kind of a side dish and cream spinach.
SPEAKER_02Hell yeah. Yeah. Um, what's the what's the best or the worst advice you've ever received?
SPEAKER_01I would say the worst advice I ever got was don't sweat the small stuff. I think that's horseshit. The reason I'm successful is because I sweated the small stuff. I think that details matter, especially if you're an artist, right? Oh, and I'm sure no one will notice that missed brushstroke. Yeah, they will. Yeah, they notice. They notice. And I think that the details do matter. And so so many times growing up, people say, Oh, don't sort of small stuff, you'll get anxious about it, and it'll keep you up at night, and yada yada yada. Dude, if you're creative, the small stuff is the difference between why they pay for your services versus somebody else's. That's it, you know, and so I think the small stuff massively matters, and so many people tell people that, which I think is total bullshit. The best piece of advice, um I I think probably, you know, when I was about to go to college and my dad wrote me a letter and uh he gave it to me, and it was in writing and stuff, and and one of the things he said in there was to just always be myself, you know, and no matter what happens, don't lose sight of who you are, right? And don't lose sight of the person that you you are and who you're gonna become, and never compromise your own integrity or who you are for someone else to not be yourself, right? It seems so simple, yes. And I think when I went to New York and Chicago, that's when I realized, like, oh my gosh, like when you're in these big cities, it's a lot harder to be yourself when you're in this humongous pond and you're this tiny fish, right? And so I think that's one of those things where it it became more, I think, poignant when I was in these larger cities about what that actually meant. And so I think to this day it's still true, you know. And I think I think at, you know, like for example, we're closed Sunday, Mondays. We talked about Sunday. Well, on Monday, I closed Mondays because how can I justify when my employees are just getting their teeth kicked in and they're we're so understaffed and nobody wants to work in restaurants right now and all the stuff that's going on, I need my people to break. And so I said, you know what, we're gonna be closed Sunday Mondays. And I was the first person in the area to do it. To my knowledge, the first restaurant in Grand Rapids, anywhere that I was in the newspaper saying we're closed today Mondays, I'm doing it for my people because they need to break. And well, then as COVID lockdown started getting easier in 21, then 22, and then finally 23, fully open up and all that stuff. I kind of sat back with my wife and I said, I think I'm gonna stay closed on Mondays. Everybody else is starting to reopen. A lot of restaurants are open seven days a week, you know, assholes. Well, yeah, it's like, do you really care about your people? No, you care about profit. Let's be real here, okay? Don't try and come at me that it's about anything else. It isn't. You want to make as much money as possible, right? It's it's the truth. And I said, if you're gonna have a conviction, don't you shouldn't you have a conviction, right? If your conviction is buyable or malleable or changeable, then it's not a conviction. And I said, if you really care about your people, to your point of like, you know, being true to yourself, right? Then shouldn't you keep your convictions? And and I kind of said to myself, well, you know what, I love my employees, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for them. Why don't they deserve, why doesn't everyone come deserve a two-day weekend every single week? They do. And I said, I'm gonna be true to myself and say, you know what, if I can't make money open five days a week only, then I shouldn't be in business. Correct. Because if I can't give every one of them the best possible life possible, still inside of being a restaurant, then why am I doing it? And so I'm sure there's lots of people who listen to this would disagree with me. They'd say this guy's an idiot. Well, fine, that's fine. But my personal conviction, who I am, like me, me being true to myself is how do I would I be would I be a hypocrite if I'm sitting at home on Sunday and Monday with my family and they're all working? Yes. But if I can give them some time off, yes, they still work Fridays, they still work Saturdays, obviously. But like, what can I do as a small olive branch to them, right? And so I think being true to myself is saying my personal convictions mean that everyone should have at least the same basic idea, which is we all have two days off. We all, everyone in the company, myself included, the same two-day break. Every one of us. And I think it comes down to that advice one day gave me, which is be true to yourself and stick to your convictions. And I've done that. And so I think to this day, people love it, and we will never be open on Sunday, Monday. That's fucking rad. Yeah, it's pretty cool. Um, what's your walk-up song? Walk-up song.
SPEAKER_02Uh and my wife, or my wedding, my wedding. You're gonna kick in the door into a room.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah. Fucking Luke's here. Oh, yeah, it's the same one as my wedding. Slow hands by Interpol, you know? Yeah, fuck yeah. Yeah, at the very like at the very end, at the end last refrain, right before they hit the chorus again, it's just it's it's all the bass, the drums, the acoustic, all of it comes in at once, and Paul Banks vocals, and it's like, dude, it's the best.
SPEAKER_02You know, I love that at your wedding you didn't go with some fuck that whatever fucking bullshit. Our song at our wedding was Love Gun by Kiss. Yeah, let's go. Just a song about Paul Stanley's dick, and it's like, that's how we're starting our marriage. I love it.
SPEAKER_01Same with me. I told him, I'm like, babe, I love you, but it's gonna be Interpol and slow hands, and it's not negotiable.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, if that's a problem for you, then that's a bigger discussion. I agree.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, 100%.
SPEAKER_02Um, what what makes you feel most like yourself?
SPEAKER_01I would say when I'm at home cooking, family's around me, fire's on, and I got a bottle of red wine. I love red wine, um, open, having a glass of red wine, cooking, you know, kids playing, that's that feels like me. Right. It's just that's that's what I live for, and and that's that that to me feels like a perfect situation.
SPEAKER_02Does cooking at home weigh more than putting it out there in public?
SPEAKER_01No, it's cooking it at home for me is cathartic. I mean, it's it's it kind of centers me, it grounds me, it relaxes me. Um because it's the one time myself actually get to cook what I want to cook, right? Yeah. Where I'm not cooking for somebody else, I'm cooking for for me, right? And so like last night, for example, I told my wife, she's like, you're an asshole. I I made myself um uh pork chili, right? I got a two-pound pork butt and I slow braised it. And I mean, you know, I got you know chipotle and ancho chilies and and you know, a double bock beer and all this stuff, and I made this just banging pork chili. It was I even said my wife was like, dude, this is really good. Like it was delicious, and none of the kids ate it. My wife didn't eat it. I made them their own dinner, but I was like, I want to cook something for me that's again soul satisfying. And I was like, this is freaking delicious, you know. And I went to the store and I got some Fritos and some sour cream because like, can you eat chili without Fritos and sour cream? I say no.
SPEAKER_02No, the correct answer is no, correct.
SPEAKER_01And so like I was like, I'm doing the whole thing, and it was so good, but like I in a weird way for me, it's like it's like mental health, right? How do I like provide mental health to myself? That's the way I do it, right? And so the restaurant business is so stressful and there's so much going on. I mean, like this weekend, for example, uh at public owner restaurants, we had a dishwasher and a line cook both call off on the same night. Awesome, you know, and so like how do you fill that in? Then on Saturday, we had a line cook with their two weeks' notice in at 76, delicious, you know. And I can delicious, I can keep going, but like that's every week. Like people don't understand. Like at Lovejoy, which was Poquito, we've had five dishwashers this year. All of them just they quit on their own accord. Like, I don't think people understand how hard it is to run restaurants, and so you have to have a stress mitigation and kind of like way to get more kind of center yourself and like how can you do things? And so, you know, like for me, cooking is one of those ways that I kind of just can can relax a little bit. Do you have any regrets? No, I don't think so. You know, honestly, I I think that you know, life's one of those things where you only get one shot at it. And I think to live unapologetically and unabashedly your way is the most important thing. And are there things I probably could have done this way or that way differently? Yeah, I'm sure. But like, you know what, at the end of the day, like I love my story, I love who I am. Um I I love myself, and I think that um at the end of the day, you know, I'm I'm happy with who I am. If I could like answer the question, I probably could have like eaten one less cheeseburger when I was 15. You know, um, just being totally honest, keeping it 100, you know. But um, no, and all honesty, like joking aside, I'm I'm good with her.
SPEAKER_02I got uh I've got one last question for you.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02Are you okay?
SPEAKER_01I'm great. You know, it's funny that you asked that, are you okay? Because that's a question I feel like in society that people don't ask enough, you know, and I feel like too many people, white knuckle stuff, and people don't have the human decency to just ask that, right? And so I love that question, and I think it's very pointed as the last question because I think it's one of those things where especially for artistics, where you do pour your soul onto a plate and people are so judgmental of what you do because art is very subjective, right? Yeah, that the mental health part of like what you do, it's real, you know, it really is. And I think that part of getting back to earlier parts we talked about life's getting so expensive and all these different things, life's getting harder. And I think that people stopping to ask people a soul satisfying question, like, are you okay? It's great. And so I'm I'm I'm fabulous. Um I love that.
SPEAKER_02That makes my day.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So all right, man. Uh before we wrap things up, where can people find you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we are 1983 restaurants. Uh we own four restaurants, public restaurants in Zealand at 131 East Main Avenue. Um, then we have 76. My second restaurant opened, and that's at 52 West 8th Street in Holland, Michigan. And then our third and fourth are Lovejoy and Obstacle Number One. And those are at 90 and 92 West 8th Street, also in Holland, Michigan.
SPEAKER_02Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Thank you for sharing us. I appreciate it. It was awesome. Let's get out of here. Yeah, see ya.
SPEAKER_02Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made possible by merch sales, reviews, and listener support. And it's created and hosted by me, graphic design on the call, and co-hosted by photographer Joe Madison. Music is noises by Mike maintaining the branches. Get Bad Idea Social Club wherever you get your podcast.
