Sara Pulver: Chaos and Whimsy

Sara Pulver (illustrator, muralist, Dear Ollie) sits down with Aaron McCall to talk about knowing who you are and building something around it. She gets into a lifelong love of tactile, handmade things that eventually turned into markets, a grant, and a stationery shop where she hosts her own work alongside over a hundred vendors with a focus on women and queer creators. They talk about tackling murals, life as a neurodivergent artist, and why the AI crunch might be the best argument yet for going analog. About finding your people, protecting your whimsy, and keeping the whole thing moving.

Keep up with Sara Pulver:
sarapulver.com
IG: @sarapulver
dearollie.com
IG: @dearollieandco

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This episode is supported by:
Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
Merchants & Makers
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Writer/Producer/Editor/Host:
Aaron McCall
aaronmccall.net
IG: @aaron_mccall
——
Co-Host/Sidekick/Photographer:
Joe Matteson
themattesons.co
IG: @joe_dustin
——
Music:
"Noises" by Mike Mains & The Branches
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Support the Podcast:
Buy Merch
——
Follow Bad Idea Social Club:
badideasocialclub.com
IG: @badideasocialclub

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:53

So we had a Kinshop birthday book fair last year, last September, which we are definitely doing again. So we basically just recreated a scholastic book fair, but for um a best day. That was the best day. It was the best day.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Just loading up on goosebumps like a mother could be a bit.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

So great. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Do you want to know a thing? You want to know a thing? Yeah, of course I do. I'm wearing makeup today.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Tell me why and where.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

I'm a face. Yeah, why? Why? So I started a new like uh skincare routine. Nice. And I think my face is just adjusting, but I'm breaking out like a motherfucker.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Well, you look great. I kind of wish you would have gone like eyeliner or something.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Yeah, go real dark, really dramatic.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Just a really deep red lip.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Something kind of like sexy but understated.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Yeah, a little flirty, but professional.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Okay, let's do this. Hey everybody, welcome back to Bad Idea Social Club. My name is Aaron McCall. And I'm Joe Madison. This time I sat down with Illustrator, muralist, and just absolute weirdo Sarah Polver. The artist behind uh Dear Ollie. And she also runs Dear Ollie Co., which is a um it's a stationary and art shop in downtown Lansing, Michigan, that like it gives her work like a retail home, but then it's also like she's also hosting literally a hundred other artists and vendors in that space. I kind of think Sarah's one of the lucky ones um in that she figured out who she is and then just kind of built everything else around it. Um and I think you can see that in her work. Um it's it's like full of color and energy, um, and it's also kind of funny, but it also kind of fucking says something, which is uh I mean I dig.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

This is like a complex question that doesn't have a direct answer, but why do you think it is some people find themselves so quickly and then can build upon that, and then other people it takes like a fucking lifetime to figure out who they are?

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Um I don't know, man. I think I think a lot of people spend their entire lives kind of shaping themselves around um what's practical and what's acceptable.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Um, instead of honing in on who they really are.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

And also adversely to that, I think that a lot of my life I lived the the direct opposite. I like directly went against the grain because I felt like I was hiding from who I actually was. Go ahead. I remember in school I would do shit with like my hair or like just wear shit, right? And I remember it feeling like like, yeah, I'm like fine with this, you know, but I remember doing it because like it was so abruptly different, it just felt different. And I think that was me like either protecting myself from who I really am, even though, you know, I mean, I don't need to protect myself. It's I I want to celebrate that, but or it's like I was desperately just trying to find it. It's like, is bright green spiky ass hair me? I don't know. Let's figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Well, let's also not forget about the the relentless onslaught of corn t-shirts.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Dude, it's fine. I used to fight that legacy real hard, and I'll just accept it.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

I know you're trying to cut me off, but I am going to mention the Jinkos and the suspenders that hang down.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Dude, I spent time in those suspenders. I know. Like, I'm not gonna say bedazzle them, but I mean it basically was.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

So then let me ask you this, Joe, because you know, we've been asking all of our guests this. Um, what what makes you feel most like yourself today?

SPEAKER_00 4:48

It's all of my family together. It's me taking cinnamon rolls out of the oven that I just baked that are like slightly undercooked, just like the way my wife likes them, and they're perfect. And everyone has what they need, and everyone is is happy in in the same spot, and like my brother's laugh is like filling up the entire house, and everyone is showing off shit they're working on. And the moment of that that makes me feel the most like me is I'm going up to everyone and just asking them if they need anything.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Man, you're a you're a um what am I trying to say? You're like a guy of service.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

A hundred thousand percent. It is it is so deeply rooted in me for some reason, and it is it gives me so such profound joy to be like, hey, do you need something? Yes, I have that. Let me get that for you. And in fact, let me let me get the best version of that thing for you that I can possibly get my hands on right now.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

I love that you actually have an answer for that because I was I was kind of thinking about it. Yes, I don't know that I do. It's hard, dude, isn't it? I realize now what I've been doing to people in and like asking them that question. That's difficult, and I'm sorry, I'm not gonna stop.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

But like it makes me it's funny that we we landed on those two topics of conversations because one, I think for a long time I I did not know who I was and I did not know how to find him. And I think it's just through living life, I just stumbled across who I who I love to be.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

I would would you would you be friends with yourself uh from when we first met back in high school?

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Hell no.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Yeah, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Hello, absolutely not. I'd be friends with you though, from 10 years ago, 20 years ago, whenever. I would totally be your friend still.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

I don't know. I think I would talk a lot of shit about you.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

You definitely would. You for sure would.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

It's great. All right, before we dive in, don't forget to follow wherever you're listening or watching. Leave a five-star review and don't forget to tell your friends.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Also, this thing runs off of uh merch sales and listener support, and uh there was something else, reviews. And so please, please, please go do that. Um real quick, I do just want to say though, I mentioned earlier that like Sarah, I felt like was one of the lucky ones, but I I I wanted to clarify. I mean that in the in in the sense that the life that she's living is rare, not that she hasn't busted her ass for it. That's all. Here's my here's my conversation with Sarah.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

Cool, cool.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

So where do you want to start with this thing?

SPEAKER_03 7:27

Oh, I don't fucking know. You're the professional, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Why don't we why don't we start with the origin story?

SPEAKER_03 7:31

I don't want to talk about my childhood. Say I just had therapy this week. Say I didn't know. No, um origin story. Say I always feel like origin story uh for me and like the work that I do today kind of uh starts from middle school pen pals.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Okay, tell me that.

SPEAKER_03 7:55

In middle school, we had like assigned pen pals, where uh like I think that our school had some sort of um like exchange program with like German exchange students in like a very certain particular school or something like that. And because we kind of had that built-in relationship, they would assign us pen pals. Uh, and then you would send letters and send all different kinds of stuff and you would learn how to send mail to a different country, right? Pretty fun. And ever since then, I was just immediately obsessed with sending mail. And I feel like that is such a little like turning point in the directions.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Is that where your like tactile everything kind of comes from?

SPEAKER_03 8:37

You bet. Say, and well, between the pen pals, and then they had us do uh this project where we would write into like our favorite companies and like let them know what we loved about their product. And so, like, I don't know, I probably wrote in for like wet and wild eyeliner or something, you know, like I was like 14. And uh then you wrote in and like companies then would send you like stickers and you know, like coupons for free shit and everything.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Well, I was hoping for a little eyeliner or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

This is kind of magical though. Like, I can just send you my thoughts and then you'll send me stuff. That's very cool. Say, uh, and I've just always been really, really drawn to things that are a bit more like intimate or nostalgic. And I feel like snail mail is a really big one of those things. And so jumping ahead in life, say, even I had pen pals up until like, I mean, I wish I still had them now. Like not that long ago, like maybe like 10 years ago or so. I was probably still writing people like oh, that's amazing, uh, regularly from different countries, different places. Uh and eventually, say those people started, I well, I just started making things to send to them because I've always had a background in art in some kind of way. Like I was voted like the most artistic in like high school, and like, you know, you can kind of follow the trajectory a little bit. Say they so I started making things and making my own like stationery and stuff like that to send them. And then eventually they were like, Wait, like, will you send me more? Can I buy some so that I can send it to my other friends? And I was like, Yeah, you can do that. And then next thing you know, all of a sudden you have a line of stationery.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

So is that so is that how is that how Deer Alley started?

SPEAKER_03 10:20

That's how Deer Alley started for sure.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Well, how did it how did it go from that to like opening like an actual store?

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Well, say, I mean, uh having uh a brick and mortar space was always like a really like big goal for me. So in uh my like previous life, I spent like about 10 years in arts administration um working for like what does that mean? That's a super solid question. So it's like all of the clerical and admin work behind getting art into place.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Oh, the sexy side of art.

SPEAKER_03 10:52

Yes, exactly. So you get it. I did that for a long time and I worked in like some fine craft gallery, and I worked at a Lansing Art Gallery and Education Center where um I organized and ran their gallery shop and organized exhibitions and things like that for a while. So I feel like I have like this really kind of interesting spot where I have a foot on either side where I am a working artist. Shit. We knew that was gonna happen. That's when my strikes have started. Okay, okay.

unknown 11:23

Refocus.

SPEAKER_03 11:25

Um, say, so like kind of like a foot in the business side and like a foot on the artist side. And not a lot of people have both. So it felt like it kind of put me in like pretty much the perfect position to have a shop because I've had all of this like admin experience and things around like running a business a little bit. And then I also bring in, say, what I do. So yeah, that's how Dear Alley got started. Um, and I just did markets for years, yeah. From like 2015 through like 2021.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

And it was just you.

SPEAKER_03 11:55

It was just me. Yeah, just me, just doing my weird, silly shit and connecting to people about it. Yeah, dude, I love doing markets. Wild.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

I love doing markets.

SPEAKER_03 12:05

Like it's a love, like it's a push-pull relationship for sure.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

It is. Well, so so for me, I got out of the out of the market game for like, you know, just because it is so much free and work.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

It's so much work.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Uh with honestly, like not that big of a payoff. Always. And like the fees are crazy and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_03 12:23

Well, and these days it's gotten even wilder. Like, well, I'm uh I mean that's our origin story is say we met at markets way back in the day when I used to do that and say that's what you were doing too. Do you still do it any? Do you sell your design work and shit like that anywhere like that now? No, yeah, it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

It is hard, and it's uh I do miss it because like it there is something about like hanging out in a space where everybody's kind of there for the same thing, and then having like a stranger tell you why something you made. Yes, like that's all connect with them? That's insane. There's not a feeling like that in the world.

SPEAKER_04 12:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

So I do miss it for that kind of thing. But I mean, for for us though, the podcast, we've we're we're gonna connect in a new way. Yeah, well, and and we're gonna start doing markets to get out and like what a better way to go meet a bunch of awesome, like driven, hungry creatives.

SPEAKER_03 13:12

That sounds great, you know? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

It's gonna be awesome.

SPEAKER_03 13:16

I love that. That's such a good idea. They put you right in the mix.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

That's it.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

That's great.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Yeah. Do you still do markets?

SPEAKER_03 13:24

I do very, very occasionally, and I do them now as the shop. So I haven't done any that are just me, dear Ollie, in since I opened the shop. Oh, right on. But I will do pop-ups that are basically little mini pop-ups of the shop at a couple of different places and things like that. Specif uh specifically around town.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

What is what is the Lansing Creative scene like right now?

SPEAKER_03 13:47

Oh, Lansing Creative Scene is will always be so, so special to my heart. We have such an incredible creative community. And um we really get behind each other, say it's very supportive. Uh, say if I'm doing a working on a project or something like that, and I'm like, oh man, I need a second set of eyes on this, or there's this one part that I'm really stuck on, and I want to talk to somebody about it. There's always somebody you can text or call or get together with and noodle something around. Like it's the best.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

I love that. I I got my start in Lancing, and I feel like I came in at a really weird spot where um all of the creatives around me that like I was kind of thrown into with were all I mean, I was probably the youngest by 15, 20 years.

SPEAKER_04 14:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

And I was just like, I don't like any of this.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

That's so real.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

None of this is fucking fun.

SPEAKER_03 14:41

Well, I've kind of had a similar experience, but for like a different reason, really, because uh I was really young and in arts administration. So I was like right, like I worked in uh um a Finecraft gallery in East Lansing uh when I first got out of high school called Mackerel Sky Gallery. And uh say they were a Finecraft gallery, but they also had like a small rotating exhibition space. And they had this built-in um demographic that had just followed the owners for such a long time, and it was all of their friends. And so the demographic kind of like aged with them, right? So most of the artists who were coming in, they weren't people my age. They're people, you know, say in their 50s or 60s, or you know, say it just different generationally. And so I never felt that big connection.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

But at the same time, it is some of those people are like so foundational to where I am today and have like followed me throughout all of those different things. Yeah, God, I love that, which is so cool. Like there's this uh this one cool cat in Lansing called Ben Graham, who I uh absolutely adore, and he's a designer, and he did the Mackerel Sky newsletter back in the day, and we would um print it and send it out and mail it. And um so I've known him since I was pretty much like 20 years old. And like he's still anytime I have an event at the shop, he comes out. Like anytime that like I'm out and about and I see him somewhere, he's always like, How are you doing? How's this project? How's that? Like, just so supportive. And uh I wouldn't change that for the world. So some of those relationships have been really amazing.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

What what kind of events are you doing at the shop?

SPEAKER_03 16:27

Oh, we've got all kinds of stuff. Uh so we've been doing workshops and things like that, of course, because um love that.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Get your hands dirty.

SPEAKER_03 16:34

Well, that and also, you know, retail in this fucking hellscape is uh not exactly the most profitable business. So but people are looking for more experiences still. So we've been hosting workshops and things like that. And then um, we've got like there are a few like of those silly like calendar days where it's like indie bookstore day or stationary store day, sure, where they just sound like the day that somebody just made up, but in reality, it really does work as a way to get people in the shop and to kind of celebrate within your community. And so um, my shop is a little unique in the fact that it's inside of another shop. So my have a stationary shop inside of an indie bookstore, which is very cool and definitely works, right? Like those two things go together very well. Um, but then so we get to celebrate both indie bookstore day and stationary store day. And then we do different little things around them and stuff like that. We launch different t-shirt designs, do little drops of merch. Um, say last year for stationary store day, we had um a friend in the front screen printing, uh lancing postcards. That's the coolest. And then people could pull their own postcard print and bring it home. And uh this last year we had a really, really fantastic event for our birthdayslash anniversary for the shop. Um, so we call ourselves kin shops. They like two shops that share the same space and values but operate independently, kin shops. And uh so we had a kin shop birthday book fair last year, last September, which we are definitely doing again. So we basically just recreated a scholastic book fair, but for um adopting the best day. That was the best day.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

It was the best day, just loading up on goosebumps like a motherfucker.

SPEAKER_03 18:28

So great, exactly. And I got to remake like the catalog, like we made like a catalog and printed it on the newsprint and everything, like so that it would feel and smell like the old one.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

I can still like see that like scholastic catalog, like is still be riding that high.

SPEAKER_03 18:45

Like we need it. Any little piece of joy we can grab, let's hold on to it tight. So we're definitely gonna do that again. And that was super fun.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

God, that's all right. So so when did you open the shop?

SPEAKER_03 18:55

In 2022.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Okay, so you got through COVID at least.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

Well, say tricky, right? Like, so when uh when the shop first opened, it was supposed to just be a pop-up for the holiday. Like, uh, so my friends Christine and Elise, who own a novel concept, they approached me. They had been in a business incubator program in Lansing called Middle Village Market, and they were looking for a permanent space. And they were like, Oh, you know, we want to sell all your stationery, want to sell all your stuff. And I was like, Yeah, it's so cool. And then somehow, like that just kind of um somehow devolved to why don't you move in? And I was like, all right, let's give it a shot. And so the idea was I had a pop-up there for just November and December of the holiday season, so I wouldn't have to do markets and like carry my shit everywhere. So it was just my work in the shop, and uh it went over so well. And then I was like, this is my inn. I have to take advantage of this while I'm here. I'm never gonna have one foot in like this to a retail space. And I uh wrote, wrote a grant, got it, and it was able to fund um a whole bunch of inventory and displays and things like that. And then we started stacking other people, and now I have over a hundred different vendors in that tiny space. Yep, over a hundred different vendors with a focus on women and queer creators. So uh I'm yeah, I'm pretty proud of how that's grown.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

That's incredible. That sounds that feat sounds both exciting and fucking terrifying.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

Yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

How are you how are you keeping your head above water? Emotionally. I don't care about your money.

SPEAKER_03 20:46

I'm talking well, it's all connected, right? Like, say, and especially like, I mean, I grew up very like lower middle class, poor, like, you know, like we could we could get by, but we ate a lot of spaghetti, like you know, like uh, and say so. The scarcity mindset around money is really, really hard, and it definitely is built into you to as some sort of like reflection of your worth, even though it isn't whatsoever. It's not even a reflection of success, like, but it does, you know, play a role, and that's always hard. But how am I keeping my emotional head above water? I don't know, man. Are you eat every day is different? Say most of the time I feel like I'm doing pretty good at it, but sometimes you sink right back in. Yeah. Say some days are harder than others.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

So through the shop, you're not only like giving yourself a space to like be and uh create and and put your shit out there, but you are kind of like I don't know, kind of a hub, I guess, or kind of a platform for exposure for obviously lots of other artists. That's a that's a huge responsibility.

SPEAKER_03 21:51

Absolutely. And we've also become just kind of like a hub and for our community, and particularly like our queer creative community in Lansing. Say, because we'll also have um, you know, between the kin shops, we have like an open journaling night, we have a writing club, there's a book club. These are all things that you can do for absolutely no cost that are a way to meet people and build community. And it's been just absolutely incredible to be the catalyst for something like that. Like it's this different feeling of pride than what you experience over your own work because it's um it's bigger.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Right, right. So, like you have to have that feeling of like stepping back and be like, look what I did.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

That and pretty much every time I feel like I'm dipping my head underwater, like you were saying, all I've got to do is the the why is so in the room when the people are there.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

We've we've put on a few art markets, yeah, like as the podcast, and and and we it's that feeling, it's that same thing where I'm like, Oh my god, like what we.

SPEAKER_03 22:53

Look what we did.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

Isn't that that's wild? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:57

Like that's a very, very cool thing.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

I know. It's just it's just gnarly that like you're able to like build a space that hosts tactile creativity and that kind of expression like still matters in the space. What do you think that means to these artists who are putting their stuff out? And and fuck, what does it mean to you?

SPEAKER_03 23:14

I mean, you never want your art form to be a dying thing. Say I think that there's so much joy and uh pleasure in continuing to uh kind of like sow the seeds for the next round of people, so to speak.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:32

In some ways, like that's one thing that this isn't like a direct answer to your question, but my brain took it there, anyways. Uh, is that I've been talking uh a lot recently about how I feel like I'm kind of like aging out of certain things and like uh I'm seeing the new new creatives, younger folks 38. I'm not older. But like younger folks and these younger kids coming up and doing all this stuff, and I'm just like have this innate sense of pride about it in this really weird way, where now I'm in a role where I can support them and uplift their voices instead of being the only one in the room, which feels really good. And it's so cool to see other things in the community where you're like, oh damn, I wish I would have thought of that. And then you're like, wait a minute, I actually have no capacity to do that, nor am I probably the best person in the room to do that. But now I get to see these other people do it and to just support them through it. I love that. Dude, I used to have a different level of cool.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

I used to look at um like other designers and illustrators, creatives that would do something really awesome. And there was always like this part of me that was like I could do that better. Well, that's but but now I'm kind of like fuck, that's cool. Like I'm so stoked to like live in a space where like this is happening, you know? And it's like I'm just gonna drink that in.

SPEAKER_03 25:04

Where like that first thought where it's like this like almost level of FOMO, where you're like, oh my god, I wish I would have thought of that, or that's such a good idea, I could do it better, or like, what if this and this? But then to have the more grounded thought of after you've had your initial reaction and you're like, oh, wait a minute. No, I'm really thrilled that this is happening, and I wouldn't do this. So I'm so glad someone else is.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

I kind of I kind of feel like as as we get a little bit older, you said you're 38, I'm 41. So we're we're we're we're playing in the same sandbox. Um I'm more confident in my place.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

That too.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

In in in the creative community that's like around us. Yes, um, for better or worse.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

Yes, true.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Um, have you have you felt the AI crunch yet?

SPEAKER_03 25:54

Yes, of course. I mean, how how can how can you not I don't know I don't know that I have. I d I don't know if so when you're crunch, it's are you talking like is it like personally affecting you in like these ways or anything like that, like bottom line crunch?

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Or like like are you feeling it like like affect the way that you do your work?

SPEAKER_03 26:16

I'm feeling it affect the way I feel about the work a little bit. And okay, so here I just got an email like last week. Um, so we run all of the shop on Shopify, say, because it's super super great. I can take the same thing with me to sell at markets and shows that I sell within Shop and our websites the same platform. They all talk to each other. I only have to do one inventory. It's fucking that's amazing. Yes. But I got like this notification that was buried underneath all my other notifications on Spotify, or not Spotify, Shopify. I've wrong, horrible platform. Um say she didn't mean that.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

She didn't mean that.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

No, no, no, you can cut that power out. Uh say, but it was like buried underneath everything that now all Shopify websites are available for use with agentic AI.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

So the fuck does that mean?

SPEAKER_03 27:16

I literally would not know what it means if Jenny, say, my girlfriend, my love, love of my life, uh just went and did some work for a conference in San Francisco with Stripe, the credit card processing company. And apparently all they talked about the whole time was this agentic AI, which is basically it sounds like for people who don't have to count every dollar they spend, they can have the AI shop for them as it learns them. So the AI like crawls, the robots crawls websites or something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

They just buy stuff for you.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

Yeah, but like you have to physically, I had to physically turn off like the button where it allowed checkout somehow on this other platform that has nothing to do with me, and I have no idea how I'd get the money or anything. And there's no way to opt out of it. Like you can't prevent them from looking at your shit. There's no opt-out.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

That's infuriating.

SPEAKER_03 28:09

Yeah. And like I'm sure for some vendors and things like that, that has a lot of privacy practice shit that like I'm sure that they don't want, you know.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Um, but yeah, I don't know that I've felt like an actual crunch on like my bottom line or anything yet. I'm sure it's coming because better and better. But it's like I kind of feel like that the clients that are that would be like, oh, I could I could just use AI to do what you do. Yeah, they were never gonna appreciate what the fuck we're bringing to the table anyway.

SPEAKER_03 28:39

Those people aren't our demographic to begin with. These people who are jumping on the AI bandwagon right away, like in this level, those aren't the people who would have been our clients in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

No, no, not at all. And it's it's I don't know. I don't I don't think I'm scared, but like I'm not unaware. Maybe I am a little nervous, maybe that's what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_03 29:00

I mean it's a part of it, right? Say, I think it's okay to be nervous. Do I think that it needs to like the anxiety has to control our every single decision? Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

But but I also kind of feel like there's gonna be this like pendulum, right? Where like we're we're being inundated with this shit. And I think that's where more tactile in-person events are gonna be fucking king again.

SPEAKER_03 29:25

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

I I don't know how soon that's gonna happen. Well, I feel like it's already happening, but I'm craving it.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

Yeah. I feel like uh in like post-COVID days, say, with that and then with all of these other things that are like kind of forcing us to our screens so often, uh it feels like more and more people are reaching out for ways. And now you now you see on the screens about how everyone's going analog and uh all of that. And I'm like, yes, welcome, come. Do you need some stamps?

SPEAKER_01 29:57

Like um, so how are you balancing running a shop with your kind of own creative ambitions and and uh experiences?

SPEAKER_03 30:12

Well, say outside of the shop, say I uh I don't do as much illustration work anymore since I've had the shop because capacity is low. Uh, but I am still doing my murals. I started doing murals in 2019, and that was something that has really kind of awakened like this new kind of creative spark in me in a way.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Why do you just start doing murals? Because that seems like a fucking decision. That is an undertaking.

SPEAKER_03 30:40

But it was also so fun because I spent so many years designing for you know, something really small. And then I was kind of like, oh, well, what if I made it like 20 times that size? Right. Like, and uh so it's it's really fun to not only I mean, like you got kind of used to seeing your work on cards or on like these other things that I started to make, but to see your work on a wall, that's very, very cool. And um I started in 2019 with uh a local business that was just opening up called Social Sloth Cafe. And they were my very first mural, and I learned so much immediately. But it was this really sweet local business who was like willing to let her figure it out, let me figure it out and like pay me enough that I didn't like feel like any like resentment or like it was like uh a bad thing, but also enough to reflect my skill level at it as well, which is always a struggle.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

Yeah, dude, murals scare the shit out of me.

SPEAKER_03 31:44

Yeah, they should. They're scary.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Like, like I I That's not true.

SPEAKER_03 31:47

I mean, they're a little scary.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

I signed up to do one. I everything's good, and I just my nerves got the best of me. And I was like, Really? I was like, nope, I'm out, I can't do it. And that's what that's just one of my biggest regrets.

SPEAKER_03 32:00

That's wild to me. That doesn't seem like you at all.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

I'm delicate, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:03

We're tender, we're very tender.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

That's it.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

It happened. So there's nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

So so what was it that like kind of pushed you into that space where you're like, I'm gonna fucking do this?

SPEAKER_03 32:16

I'm not sure or really say it's just I something that I've always really admired and always wanted to try. And then one day I was like, let's just fucking try it. Because like, if you don't just try it, what are you what are you doing? Right? Yeah and then You're gonna regret it. Well, that and like because when you start out, you don't have any connections to the people who you can ask the questions to or anything like that. So you have to start it, and then once you do it, then your world kind of opens up to all these other people and other other people with other skill sets that can help you do it better. And like, say uh Dustin Hunt from Mural Maddox, he has been an early cheerleader of mine. He's somebody whose work I am wildly impressed with all the time, and his ability to navigate uh community involvement and bringing people and bodies and kids into things, like he's just doing such a good job. And uh to then hear that you're doing a good job from somebody who you admire like that gives you just enough of a little kick in the ass where you're like, I can do this.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

Yeah. Fucking hey. So so what is the what is the mindset, I guess, to go from something uh small and uh intimate and personal to something very public-facing and that is kind of screaming at you?

SPEAKER_03 33:38

To be fair, I even think my small things were screaming at you.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

I love that. Fucking love that.

SPEAKER_03 33:46

Like all of my artwork is pretty niche, it's pretty specific. I like make a lot of things with really weird animals, and then I like pair them with like social justice statements or like you know, there's just some silly bullshit, right? Yeah, and uh I love it. And then to be like, well, does anybody want the silly bullshit on your wall and want to give me a lot of money for it? Uh definitely is different. It's hard. And there's an there's this definite imposter syndrome that like I mean, imposter syndrome is just such a real thing for every creator.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

Well, it follows you wherever you go. I'm pretty sure that like most people get into selling tactile goods, like prints or whatever, and they're like, this shit's gonna take right off. That never happens, right? Is gonna like hit because like you feel good about your work, you feel good about what you're doing. It's true, but it's like, all right, I'm gonna publish this site, nothing, right? It's so much easier, and I think maybe this is why I like to go into uh markets so much, and like it like it's so much easier to sell something face to face than it is online because online is just fucking noise.

SPEAKER_03 34:56

It is, and there's so much noise now that how do you filter through it and get to what you need, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:00

That's it.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Say it's impossible.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

You know what I need is I need an AI bot to go shopping for me.

SPEAKER_03 35:09

If you get to AI bot shopping for you uh income levels, Aaron, you let me know. I will, I'll let you know how I did it. And we'll talk more, we'll talk more.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Um, so so you've mentioned um a little bit about being a neurodivergent creative, yeah, for sure. Um strength, weakness. How do you feel?

SPEAKER_03 35:30

Both, for sure. Say, uh and what does it mean for you? The phrase neurodivergent? Yeah. Uh, that's a super solid question. Well, I have um oh, yeah, let's talk mental health. Yeah, let's talk about that. That's a thing, right? So uh I was diagnosed with ADHD literally just like a year and a half ago. Um, but I have had major depression and general anxiety disorder for my entire existence. Oh, same disease. Yeah, right. Like it's a pretty good, you know, it's a classic combo. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

My baseline.

SPEAKER_03 36:04

It's yeah, exactly. And so you're gonna be like real sad, and I'm gonna be real worried about it. Like and um having the ADHD diagnosis has been pretty much it's it's been so interesting to me to be able to put a name to so many of the things that I've felt. Like my ADHD medication in so many ways has actually helped with my depression and my other mental health things, because so many of them come from this like internalized shame of not being able to do something like the quote unquote right way, or like, why is it so much harder for me than it is for everyone else? Everybody else seems to have capacity for all these things. How come I don't? Or like, how come when you know, like I sit down to do something, I am unable to finish a task? Why can't I ever check anything off my list? Like, you know, so much of it comes back to a lot of those things. And so then being medicated for the ADHD, I started completing tasks. I started building self-trust with myself in a way that I didn't really have before.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

That's huge.

SPEAKER_03 37:18

Yeah. And um, and yeah, that's been huge for like my creative process for executive functioning for all of it. So uh yeah, highly recommend that.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Dude, I went in for um ADHD testing because I was like, I everything I understand, this sounds pretty up my. Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 37:39

Like I've got some of those flavors.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

You know, um, and uh apparently I went to a place that a lot of people do not like. Um but they told me I had PTSD, and I was like from what they're like, well, your childhood. And I was like, And you're like but what but from what?

SPEAKER_03 38:03

Like, do you do you feel like you had like a pretty standard childhood?

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Nothing like there was no like specific like traumatic event or anything like that.

SPEAKER_03 38:13

Interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

And I'm like, are you is there somebody else yeah?

SPEAKER_03 38:17

You're like, this just doesn't feel quite like wrong. Like, I mean, there are so many different reasons why somebody could be diagnosed with PTSD and different traumatic events in your life that can happen that can trigger those kind of responses, and complex PTSD is definitely a thing. And but that doesn't seem like it was super applicable for I don't think it was, even a little bit. You're like, oh, that really wasn't what I was here for, but thank you.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

Yeah. I had to spend two hours taking that taking those fucking tests. Oh, right.

SPEAKER_03 38:47

That's the thing. The whole that being tested for ADHD is an ADHD fucking trap. Like all of the forms you have to look at, everything you have to fill out, how many times you have to repeat the same information.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

Like it's like, are you trying to trick me?

SPEAKER_03 39:01

It literally feels like it should be a fucking trick.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Yeah. Like Yeah, and then and then the thing where it's like you have to like stop the oh god, what was it? It's like you have to like stop the um like when like a certain like thing flashes or like a certain letter shows up, and now it like you there's like different buttons, and I'm like, I'm I forgot what all of these are wrong. I'm doing them all wrong. I know that. Yes, I've gotten lost, I'm in the weeds, things are bad.

SPEAKER_03 39:26

Uh we're doing bad.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

Like do you have an easier one?

SPEAKER_03 39:33

Can we less buttons? I don't remember what the controller does. Like can I take notes? It's going too fast. It's going too fast. Right. I'm feeling really anxious about it. I don't think we can keep going at this pace.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

Uh Sarah, is there anything else we should talk about before we go topic hopping?

SPEAKER_03 39:52

Ooh, uh I can uh talk a little bit about say the things that I am creating for fun.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

I would love that.

SPEAKER_03 40:01

Say that's a thing that I don't get a chance to talk about very often.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

Lay it on me.

SPEAKER_03 40:06

Say because um, okay, so when you make when your go-to is painting and illustrating, and then you make it your job, as you're familiar with, it does become not the thing that you turn to for the same kind of creative release.

SPEAKER_02 40:22

Yeah, it's no longer relaxing.

SPEAKER_03 40:24

It's no longer the thing that you go to when you want to feel good because it's work. And even though it's work that we enjoy, it's still it still has that full that that on it, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:36

Yeah, and it's kind of funny because it's like you work so hard to make the thing you love your job, and then it is like it kind of loses something. So like it takes a little bit of extra.

SPEAKER_03 40:47

There are some days where I'm just ready to hang it all up and be an office drone and not care about what I do. But inevitably, that's probably not the path I'm gonna take. Um, but because of that, it I've been reaching out more recently to try to find things that aren't work that bring me that same kind of creative joy. And um I I've been uh been doing a lot of paper mache. I've been enjoying paper mache.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 41:18

Um, I've become really interested in scanners.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 41:26

Like I have a flatbed scanner from, you know, like the early 2000s. Yep. That I'm very much in love with. And I've been making like scanner collages and stuff like that, like right on the flatbeds. That's very cool. And that's like really fun. And then for Christmas this last year, Jenny got me, it was like a five dollar like marketplace find. Uh, she got me a magic wand scanner, which is a portable scanner that's just like literally like a little wand, and you carry it around, and then you can scan anything.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 42:03

So, like I'm scanning like carpets and walls and flyers and like dirt and like rocks and like all kinds of stuff, and then using those textures for different things, and then that's super fun. Those are those are definitely my main two sources of joy right now are scanning. God, that's all scanning in paper mache.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

I feel like that's what I get out of painting right now because like like that's not my um A, I don't get to do it nearly as often as I but that is my like okay, like I want to have fun while I'm like creating something.

SPEAKER_04 42:37

Not that like commercial art isn't fun, but also it is it's it's it's just got the butt attached to it, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Right. Um, I don't know, it's just it's just hard sometimes to feel like an artist and not a product.

SPEAKER_03 42:52

Yes, you know, very much so.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

That's a that's a fucking struggle because like I said, I love what I do. I'm so fucking lucky to do it.

SPEAKER_03 42:58

Yeah, and you're good at it.

SPEAKER_01 42:59

Thank you. Thank you. I got the compliment I was fishing for.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

Oh, look at that.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

You want to go topic hopping?

SPEAKER_03 43:06

All right, let's go.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

When you're gone, what do you hope people say about you?

SPEAKER_03 43:11

Like just when I leave the room or like when I'm dead.

SPEAKER_01 43:13

When you're dead.

SPEAKER_03 43:14

When I'm dead, oh I hope they don't think about me too much. Like that feels like a lot of pressure.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

Um nothing. I just want to just go away.

SPEAKER_03 43:24

No, not necessarily. Um, I hope to be celebrated for the way that I can bring people together and connect with people. I love that. I I hope that they're like, yeah, that bitch could put the right people in the right room.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

Finish the thought. Creativity requires endurance. Go on.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

Uh because it's not always easy. It's one of those things that um, even when it is easy, endurance is still something that you need. A, because if you want it to keep going for the long haul, say is starting a creative habit is just like any skill. You have to nurture it and build it up, and that takes endurance and time and patience.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

And real energy.

SPEAKER_03 44:07

And real energy, like mental energy, physical energy, like depending on what you're doing, it can take every single type of it. Uh, and so I also think though, say endurance is probably solid because if you are a creative who cannot endure these days, you're not going to be doing that for very long. Yeah, unfortunately, because it's hard to and uh say anywhere where you are a person who are putting out creative work, a piece of yourself, a small piece of your heart, a small piece of your soul, whether it's in a a corporate logo campaign or whether it's painting something that you saw in your dreams, like it literally. Say there's somebody out there who's gonna tell you it's bad.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:57

So, but then there's somebody out there who you're gonna connect with about like the silliest thing. Like, I'll like I said, I draw really weird animals, and sometimes there'll be somebody who comes in and they're like, Oh my god, I'm studying, I'm writing my thesis on this bat right here, this one. And I'm like, really? That one? And I'm like, I drew that. And they're like, I know. And I was like, let's talk about bats. Oh, that's awesome. It's very cool.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

Uh, what would your last meal be?

SPEAKER_03 45:27

It's not gonna be a meal of big sustenance, uh, but it would probably be like Italian food and ice cream, like like a really fucking good sourdough. So in uh 2016, I developed a gluten allergy.

SPEAKER_01 45:43

So you just you're just going for it. You're like, I'm going out anyways.

SPEAKER_03 45:47

Yeah, fuck it. Say, I don't need to worry about where the bathroom is. Take me out. Oh, I'll be right back. Let's go. Yeah. Getting older is great when you can't have your favorite things anymore.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

Oh, too real.

SPEAKER_03 46:00

Ice cream ice cream I can still have. Say, I don't have anything with dairy. So good.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

Um, what's the what's the best or the worst advice you've ever received?

SPEAKER_03 46:12

Probably the worst advice uh that I've ever received is to pick one thing and do it for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Yeah, that sounds boring as shit.

SPEAKER_03 46:21

Right. What the fuck? Who does that? Um, say, you know, we have this mindset around us, and I think that as creatives, we also especially fight it. Like when you're in like that college level where you're like, oh, you're being told that you have to get something, you have to go towards the degree. It's the degree you're gonna have for the rest of your life. It's this gonna paint this path for you down the road. I uh They were all lying, by the way. They were all lying, and for a young neurodivergent creative, it was a trap. I was I got stuck in community college for seven years.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 46:57

Yeah, say, like quite literally, because A, I was too poor to go to like a university, and then um, I had no idea what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. I didn't know what I wanted to wear that day. Like, I didn't like you know, but I mean, like, I'm uh I I always say that you can like the minute that you start to know me in any of my identities, you're like, that's a girl who doesn't want to make decisions. I'm like queer, neurodivergent, polyamorous, like say I want all of it all the time. Yeah. And I want to somehow be very good at all of it too.

SPEAKER_01 47:36

Like it sounds stressful.

SPEAKER_03 47:38

It it it is. It is. Say I'm uh I have a hard time like starting new things and being bad at them. I would like to be bad at more things. Yeah, I would like to learn how to be bad at more things.

SPEAKER_01 47:50

I love that.

SPEAKER_03 47:51

Because I I start something and I immediately kind of get this like sense of like being a little indignant if I'm not immediately good at it. Like, ugh, why? Oh, this isn't for me. This is like why isn't it doing that? That's uh that's not supposed to do that.

SPEAKER_01 48:07

Say that's it, you know, like I started cutting into blocks and I was like, ugh, this isn't for me. Oh, so and I bet you anything, if I had stuck with it, it would have been just fine. But I was like, this is kind of accurate.

SPEAKER_03 48:18

I suck at this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:22

Uh what's your walk-up song?

SPEAKER_03 48:24

My walk-up song?

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:27

I don't know why, but something by Beastie Boys just popped into my head. I love that. I don't know. Just like that vibe checks out flu. I don't know. Like awesome.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

Uh, what makes you feel most like yourself?

SPEAKER_03 48:40

My people.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Yeah?

SPEAKER_03 48:41

Yeah. I could wax poetic about my people for like a really long time. I've uh my life in recent years have gone through incredible amounts of transition. Um, I was in a monogamous relationship for 19 years with my high school sweetheart. And now I uh am moving through a divorce. They we're separated. I uh have my own business, I am making my own choices. I have um a girlfriend who is the absolute love of my life and makes me better every single day. I have an incredible community of creative people around me uh that are caring for me in a way that I truly have never felt before. Like um, we have these two wonderful friends who um have started hosting Sunday dinners just whenever we can. And I cannot tell you how much I look forward to Sunday dinner. It's huge. And it's huge. And just to know that there are people there who um who want to support you and want to uh care for you in the way that you want to be cared for is really special.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

And rare.

SPEAKER_03 50:10

And rare because I think that uh I don't know, we talk a lot about like what care looks like and things like that, and it looks different for everybody, but like if you love someone and you care for them only in the way that is how you would like to receive care, then you potentially aren't caring for that person. Yeah, you're not showing up for you're not showing up for them in the way that they would need, right? So having these people who um well, A, I just guess being at a point in my life where I'm able to articulate those needs too, right? A figure them out myself and then articulate them, uh, and then receive them, that shit's wild. Yeah. Like Yeah, I I uh told Randy and Kim, who are our Sunday dinner friends, I was like, y'all are like breaking me and putting me back together in the best of ways.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

It's like a sense of family kind of.

SPEAKER_03 51:02

It is. It definitely definitely is.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

I'm a big, I'm a big proponent of the idea of chosen family. Me too. You know, there's so much blood uh that I just I don't need them. I don't miss them, I don't want them. It's hard. Uh but then there's people, my friends in my life, who I would kill for.

SPEAKER_03 51:23

Exactly. You're like, I would move the moon for you, like literally anything you needed in a heartbeat. Say, and I've I'm I'm definitely a recovering people pleaser. Yeah. Oh dude.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

And so our paths are just this.

SPEAKER_03 51:40

Yeah, right. So, like, I feel like for sure there are times where I it's not linear, right? Nothing is. Yeah. Um, so there's definitely times where I will find myself falling into like a pattern or something that I know isn't the best for me, but now I can notice it. And I gotta tell you, noticing didn't realize how much of the work that was. That's just like, oh hey, that's a thing. And uh then if you have ADHD writing it down someplace where you will remember that you wrote it down, yeah, that's helpful too.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

Um, do you have any regrets?

SPEAKER_03 52:17

No.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Uh bullshit.

SPEAKER_03 52:21

Bullshit? Yeah. Uh not big picture ones, little ones, yeah. Little regrets, but not ever anything that like is like a change your life trajectory. So you don't have to ask this.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

I was just bullying you a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 52:39

And I'm immediately like, okay, let me find one. It was a test and you failed. No, say not any large, like major life regrets. Say things that I would do differently now or decisions that I wouldn't make now that would have made my life easier if I hadn't made them then. Of course. Yeah, exactly. But it doesn't feel like anything that's like this uh, I don't have anything hanging over me, like a be-all, like if I would have done this differently. One of my big goals for this year is to get my uh retirement plan set up because I never did that, and that's a regret. Yeah. I do wish I did that earlier.

SPEAKER_01 53:19

I think you're ahead of me.

SPEAKER_03 53:20

Really? Oh, I'm ahead of somebody. I like retirement was just like never a thing that was talked about in my home growing up whatsoever, because again, like it just wasn't an option.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

You know, I've almost become like resigned to the idea that I will just never retire. I love doing what I'm doing. You know, it's not always lucrative.

SPEAKER_03 53:44

No. Um I had a friend recently tell me who was like helping me with some budget things. They're like, you're actually not bad with money, you're just bad at bringing it in.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

They're like, okay.

SPEAKER_03 53:55

Okay. They're like, once you like the what you have, you can manage very well. And I'm like, that's because there is so little of it. Uh and I'm desperate to hang on to it. And I am desperate to hang on to it. Um, so I've had to do that, but like my skill set does not lie within bringing in money. So um, if anyone would like to give me money, you can. Um, I you can exchange it for goods or services, or you can just give it to me because you think I'm really pretty. It's a compliment.

SPEAKER_01 54:26

So this is my last question, and it's really funny coming off of your last statement.

SPEAKER_03 54:31

I have no dignity left. So that's not that's not where we're at anymore.

SPEAKER_01 54:35

Are you okay?

SPEAKER_03 54:41

Uh really not all. Really? No. Like, I'm okay. Um I knew you were gonna ask this, right? Obviously. And I was like, he's gonna ask me if I'm okay. And I was like, it's literally gonna depend on how I feel in that moment. Yeah. And in this moment, I feel pretty okay, but as an overarching statement, I do not feel okay.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

Like what are you doing to take care of yourself?

SPEAKER_03 55:09

Um, paper mache and scanning.

SPEAKER_01 55:11

Yeah. All the stuff we talked about. All the stuff we talked about.

SPEAKER_03 55:14

Paper mache scanning, spending time with the people that I love, going outside. Uh those are all things that are wildly important. Um, surrounding myself with people who will embrace the whimsy.

SPEAKER_01 55:35

I'm thinking like whimsy versus like judgment, right? It's like you neither get like one or the other.

SPEAKER_03 55:39

Ooh, I like that. I don't.

SPEAKER_01 55:41

I just want the whimsy.

SPEAKER_03 55:42

I just want the whimsy, but like using judgment as an antithesis of whimsy is really interesting. And I I like that that conceptually.

SPEAKER_01 55:53

Um before we wrap it up, uh, where can people find you?

SPEAKER_03 55:57

People can find me in downtown Lansing, Michigan, inside a novel concept. And online. I guess that's the one that you really wanted. But like I'd rather be in the woods. Um, but you can also find me online on Instagram. Say uh all my mural shit and personal stuff is at Sarah Pulver, just my name. And you can follow. No H Sarah with no H. Thanks for asking. I feel like uh that I I need no H thanks for asking as like a button that I wear. Uh I could make that.

unknown 56:32

Say.

SPEAKER_03 56:37

Um, and then say for shop things, uh, we're on Instagram at Dear Ollie Co. or you can find us at dearOllly.com. You can shop online. You can shop in your underwear and I'll ship it to you. Um, you can shop online and then come see me and pick it up in store, and uh we can have a connection over a weird animal.

SPEAKER_01 56:59

All right. You're trailing and we're gonna go. All right. Now let's get out of here.

SPEAKER_03 57:06

There we go. Chicken part of you and all these noises in my head.

SPEAKER_02 57:12

I can't seem to make them go away.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made possible by merch sales, reviews, and listener support. It is created and hosted by me, graphic designer Ann McCall, and co-hosted by photographer Joe Madison. Music is noises by Mike Mates and the branches. Get Bad Idea Social Club wherever you get your podcast.