Anna van Schaap: Hope and Tragedy // Part 2

In the conclusion of the season 7 finale, Anna van Schaap (fine artist, tattoo artist, curator) sits down with Aaron McCall to talk about building a creative life that refuses to be small. She gets into finding her voice and claiming her space out of passion and defiance, and carving out something different for women and queer folks in an industry with a history of the opposite. They talk about art history, women in art created by women in art, and the cost of going all in on something you were told wasn't for you. It's about volition, visibility, and holding hope and tragedy at the same time.

Keep up with Anna van Schaap:
annavanschaap.com
IG: @theother_twistedsister
IG: @theother_twistedsister_tattoos
IG: @theother_twistedsister_photos

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This episode is supported by:
Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
Merchants & Makers
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Writer/Producer/Editor/Host:
Aaron McCall
aaronmccall.net
IG: @aaron_mccall
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Co-Host/Sidekick/Photographer:
Joe Matteson
themattesons.co
IG: @joe_dustin
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Music:
"Noises" by Mike Mains & The Branches
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Support the Podcast:
Buy Merch
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Follow Bad Idea Social Club:
badideasocialclub.com
IG: @badideasocialclub

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:53

So many things I am very literally well known for doing. People have told me, like, you can't, you can't do it like this. You can't do this. You're never gonna make it. And I've been like, hold my fucking beer.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

I can't even make them go away.

SPEAKER_03 1:19

Uh hey everybody, welcome back to Bad Idea Cultural Club. My name is Aaron McCall. And I'm Joe Madison. This is uh this is a part two with with our conversation with Anna Van Scott. So if you if you haven't uh listened to the first one, go back and do that because we're gonna pick up exactly where we left off.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Make sure to hang out after the episode though, because we got a bunch of stuff we want to make sure we clean up before we close out this season. Um so we'll see you then.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

All right, and here's the rest of my conversation with Anna. When somebody sits down with you, like like they're handing you their trust.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. It is um I everyone assumes I went into tattooing because it it's like an art form that you can make money on, you can live on, you know, you you get to use your your creative skills. Uh, and that's not wrong, that it's very rare as a fine artist to also have a, you know, everyday job as well, where you get to directly use the skills that bring you joy and happiness. But what actually is the number one thing that like makes tattooing um just light my heart on fire is spending every single day, like day to day with so many amazing people. Like I get to do a job where I get to actually make art and I get to hold people hostage for like four or five hours and pick their brain and get to know them as a person and connect with them. Um, I've walked away from this business, you know, it's been three-quarters of a decade now. And uh I like by the hundreds now know so many people, like regulars that just come back and I've like watched their lives grow. I've watched them get married, have children, like buy a house. Like it's just so extraordinary to watch the life that comes in. Um, but it also is such a sacred form of trust where someone is like, I'm giving you permission to literally alter my body in a way that is a forever thing. But also I want to go back to that. So just let's bookmark that because I have a really interesting, I think, take on like the foreverness of tattooing at from an oil painter's perspective. Um, but uh yeah, so just like in this very forever or at least forever in this lifetime way, and um the fact that again, I it's it's hard because there's only so much you can talk about it for before people sort of like tune out to it. Um, but how men in the industry have absolutely beyond abused that right, abused that trust, abused that privilege. Um I specifically wanted to be a tattoo artist. Like, you know, everyone is welcome in my shop and I have plenty of hetero male clients. Um, but I specifically wanted a space where the she's they's and gays are safe and that they know that they are safe, that they That's incredible. Like come to me, I'm here. Um, and I I think, you know, again, that that's my whole business operates on just word of mouth. Like, I don't, you know, I do not do any kind of advertising. It's just good reputation, good work and safety. Um, but I will tell you the horror stories that I have heard from so many clients, like very real horror stories. Um, like especially I'd say my queer clients, um, just the uh the story I hear a lot is um being made to feel deeply unwelcome in traditional tattoo shops, which is not surprising when you have just like hetero men who I have you know um little to no experience with and a dislike or disdain of queerness. Um so just the immediate reaction of like you're not really welcome here, you're not really who we want to tattoo and being treated that way, even though you are giving them your body, you are giving them your trust, and you are giving them their money and still being treated so poorly. Um, but the women it makes me feel violently ill. There's like an entire um uh a group. In fact, I'd love to give them a shout out if I can. They they're called We Keep Us Safe. Um, and it's a group of mostly women, but you know, queer folks are in it too, um uh that are uh able to share their experiences of sexual assault and abuse um to warn each other where you are not safe. And there is, I mean, there's a whole laundry list in the Detroit music scene, and then there's a whole laundry list in the Detroit tattoo scene where like literally men who used opportunities to sexually assault and exploit like young women, like having you know eight under 18-year-olds come into the shop after hours, and these little girls like not knowing not to do that, like oh yeah, it's uh it will turn your stomach inside out if you go read some of these threads. It will make you angry and sick. Um I can feel it in my throat. Yeah. So it's for me, it's not just a privilege and not just a uh an issue of trust, it is also a desire in whatever way I can to help rectify that to create a space where you will never ever have to think twice about that, where um you never ever have to experience anything like that again. And even um doing a lot of like very low cost, if almost free cover-ups for women who have been abused by men or have been tattooed by men who then sexually assaulted them. Like, can you imagine what that feels like to have a man do that to you and then be wearing what he put on your body for the rest of your life? And the amount of women that have to do that.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

I don't even know what to say.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Yeah, I know. And it's I mean, when I tell you a laundry list, and this is for Detroit only, that this organization, it's everywhere, it's not like this is Detroit specific, but this is for women warning other women in the Detroit area who is not safe to go to. Um, so it's what called me, honestly, to become a tattoo artist. And then um, you know, and it's something I was always sort of in the back of my mind, because I had people my whole life like, oh, your style of drawing is very conducive to tattooing. It's like a little bit macabre, like it's very heavy contrast, like it's things that do translate very well into tattooing. And so it was something always in the back of my mind. But what made me two things made me quit the job I was doing and start learning how to tattoo, and that was my dad dying because it was like uh so I was actually tattooing part-time already at the time, but what made me decide to leave the job that I was also doing part-time was my dad dying, was the catalyst. It truly was one of those like very um, you know, it's like the I I know it's like a little bit uh duh, but and you hear it, but when you feel it, you feel it. But it's truly one of those moments of like life is too short. Like losing him was like having the entire world picked up and dropped on top of me. Nothing made sense anymore. Um, the grief, the mourning is just too much. And I was like, I love tattooing. I'm already doing this full-time. I was just, I hadn't made the jump because I was scared that I wouldn't be able to fully support myself. You know, the other part-time job I was doing, um, which was in philanthropic fundraising. Um, but I was working um for the city of Detroit. Well, for a firm that was working, had the city of Detroit's art department was our number one client. So I was actually helping try to create right programs and find funding for arts programs for the city of Detroit, which was very cool. Um, so it's I everything I've done in some way relates back to art, but in sometimes more roundabout ways than others. Um, but yeah, I that was like a steady paycheck. You know, I knew bi-weekly uh the paycheck would be in the mail. Um, and so tattooing was like, well, if you do this, it's just you. And if you fail, like you, it's just you. That's fucking scary. It's so scary.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

How long has it been?

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Uh so I started learning how to tattoo late 2019, and then um I launched fully, like left that job, and have been solely a tattoo artist for um my my dad passed away in uh August of 2022.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

About four years of full-time tattooing. Do you feel like you have your footing? Oh, yeah. I mean, I with tattooing and the same with art, I don't think you should ever be operating from a point of like, I'm it. Like this is as like you should always be like, there's more to learn. Every day there's more to learn. Every piece you make, there's more to learn. There are lessons in all of the work that you create, good and bad. Um, so I, you know, hope that six another six years down the line, another seven years, another ten years down the line, I look back at this work and go, LOL, you know, and and I've done that. Like, I remember painting, you know, things and at 21, 22 years old, being like, I'm amazing, I'm such a good artist. And now I look back on that and just like giggle, like, wow, boy, you were really full of yourself because that's not that good.

SPEAKER_03 10:07

You know, I think we all had egos at that age, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Like, but you I think you have to too to survive because the world around you just wants to beat you into a pulp. Like you have to have something. Maybe, maybe it's ego, but also maybe it's just a little bit of um self-belief as maybe a nicer way of reframing that. Because especially if you are doing something out of the ordinary and you come from a bit more of an ordinary background, like I did, you know, I came from an extremely middle class family. Like, we certainly were not like poor, but I we weren't wealthy, you know. Like we, like I went to public schools my whole life. I didn't have anybody that's like, you're gonna grow up and be, you know, whatever you want to be. It's like, no, you'll grow up and be whatever you work your ass off at being. You know, I came from uh my dad was very blue-collar, my mom was very middle class, and like maybe even blue-collar growing up, working into my family became middle class. So it was very much like, no, you the world is what you make of it. It's not your oyster, it's how hard are you willing to work. Um, and how bad do you want something? So for me, uh yeah, I think it was it's just um getting in there and uh making it happen. And um, but yeah, I think I really hope, you know, 15 years from now, 10 years from now, that I look back and I'm like, oh how silly that I even thought that was good. Look what I can do now, you know, and for both art and tattooing.

SPEAKER_03 11:32

Well, how does how does all of this play into your work in curation?

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Oh man. Yeah, boy, I do too much. I'll tell you what. I do a lot, yeah. I do. Um, which is really funny because I'm also um like I would personally say I am a lower energy person. Like I I'm very ambitious and I'm very driven by also just like an exhausted slug 24-7. I'm just like, I need I want to nap. I'm tired. Yes, yes. Both of those things. Like, bring me a cat and a cookie. Um, you put them here on the table, but uh yeah, I'm very driven, I'm very ambitious, and um, my body is constantly exhausted, fatigued, and tired, but my mind never stops. It's honestly, I think half of what is exhausting me 24-7, and my mind just like will not shut off. Um, and so I'm always like, oh, I could do this, I could do this. And so I moved to Detroit. I've been there for uh about 14 years now, and uh and I lived in Ipsy for two years before that, and then I was in Ann Arbor for school before that. So I've been sort of in that collective area for more than you know half my life. Yeah, you've them. Um, and then uh yeah, so I couldn't afford staying in Ann Arbor like most kids. So I moved to Ipsy right out on the perimeter there, and then I ended up getting a gallery job at in Ann or in Detroit. Um technically actually it was in Gross Point Park, like right on the cusp of Detroit. And so I was driving down to Detroit every day, and then the relationship I was in at the time, all through college, like we went our separate ways, it was pretty amicable. Like that's one of the people I like, I wish well. Like he's a professor at Duke now, very cool, very impressive person. Like, not the greatest, most loving relationship, but someone that very much taught me a lot about art, but more I think taught me um it's a weird way to phrase it, but someone I think that truly taught me how to learn. Like he was one of the most curious minds I've ever met, probably one of the more intelligent people I've ever come across in my life. And he was just curious about everything. And his curiosity, I sort of was able from an outside perspective look at how he approached learning from this just like need to understand and this curiosity and went like, oh, that's how that's how you become intelligent by being curious about things and then pursuing on trying your best to understand them from your perspective. Um, so if anything, I think he like taught me how to teach myself things, which I will never forget. Um, but anyway, we went our separate ways. So had to move from Ipsy and I was already in the area, so ended up moving down to Detroit and then worked as a gallery assistant, was my first big Detroit job. Um, and that gallery also had an art preservation business. Um, so I ended up training as like a tier one uh painting art pre preserver and um would like work on some of the claims. Um, and that was again one of the first people in this professional world, the director of that uh gallery, who sort of stood back and was like, You have a lot of talent. Like, I you know, I was definitely at a like a very sort of low point, broken point. Like I just was happy to have any job in the art world, like the, you know. Um, and he was like, You are actually quite a talented painter. Like, I why don't you paint, you know? Because at the time I really hadn't started painting. There's actually another little side story here. When I um attended college, U of Amazon, the uh Penny Stamp School of Art and Design, and um they make you do at the time I was there, they have this program called TMPs, which are eight-week courses where you do four of them a year and you try everything. Like you do painting, drawing, clay, metalsmith working, uh woodworking. Like, I mean, they have you try everything, which is I think an awesome thing, especially as a kid that came from public school, where like art class for us was like, you know, tempera paint. Like, I yeah, I never touched like great art supplies in my life, let alone like learned how to oil paint before.

SPEAKER_03 15:45

Yeah, you just picked the stuff out of a bucket.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Yes, yeah. It was like, here's some markers, you know, like we're gonna we're gonna make popsicle stick pro, you know, like it wasn't that bad. Actually, shitting on my high school a little bit. And the art teacher in my high school is amazing. Shout out to Miss Black, who was always so supportive and loving. Um, but uh anyway, so it but I did. It was like finally this time where I was like, wow, I never I don't know how to woodwork, I don't know how to use, you know, like weld things. I don't know. So it's that's a very cool program that they have all their students do. And I really loved oil painting. I had never been I, you know, never done oil painting before and was really enjoying it. So I ended up taking another like full-length class uh in oil painting. And I don't, I can't really tell you why. Um, but this professor, who by all accounts was a very lovely man, like I am not shitting on him at all, but he and I think he had his my best interest in mind when he said it, but he clearly had his favorites in the class. I was not one of them. And in the end, he was like, Yeah, maybe you should try something else like video or photography. Like he essentially indicated to me, like, oil is not your thing, painting is not your thing. And I was 19 at the time. I might have even still been 18. I think it was an 19 by then, and that broke me because I really liked it, I really enjoyed it. But he and he and again, I don't think he actually meant it maliciously.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

I find that infuriating.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Well, I think that's a story of a lot of artists, though. And I think again, it it's it's hard to actually know, but I think it's a story of a lot of female artists. I think it's a story of a lot of women artists when you have men around you who might actually deep down, and I don't know, and I'm not saying this is the case, but they might see talent that they don't have as men and do what they can to dissuade or discourage that talent because as men they don't want, you know. And like, I don't know, there's been other very famous artists and creatives in history who have had the same stories, like teachers that were encouraging and teachers that were very discouraging. And sometimes there's malice to those stories. Sometimes, you know, I I don't think that this professor actually was trying to do harm, but because by all accounts, he was a very lovely man. Um, but okay, but also isn't it kind of his job to uh to nurture you and support you and and get you to where you need to be if he thinks but it was also the job of that art school to, in a sense, like weed out kids that didn't really have a shot, you know, like we did so the hardest things. Uh yeah. Um but uh yeah, one of the hardest things you actually have to do in that program is called your sophomore review, where literally the end of your sophomore year, so halfway through the program, you have to sit in front of a panel of professors. Most of them are not professors you've actually had. They like try very hard to make sure it's professors you don't have a relationship with and explain to them through like a 45-minute presentation of your work and your interests why you should stay in the school. And they very literally have kids leave. They have them take like sabbaticals away if they don't, if they think like the talent might be there, but you're just not pushing hard enough, or they truly have people and like you don't end up kicked out of U of M. Like you can go enroll in L SNA. You're still a U of M student, but you are no longer a penny stamp student. Now, I don't know if they do this anymore, but that when I was there, whatever, 20 years ago. That's fucking brutal. Yeah, you're 20 years old, or sometimes 19. You're a child. Yeah. And you have to prove to a panel of adults you don't know why you belong in that school. Um, yeah, that was actually the first time I ever had a panic attack, was right before this was all happening. Yeah. And I also had lost like a lot of family, like the months leading up to this. So I was just in this like horrific mental state. And I was like, oh my God, I think I'm dying. And the doctors are like, Nope, that's a panic attack, kiddom. Wow. Um, but yeah, so uh in a in a weird way, uh that being like a an essential part of the program, I think part of it is also approaching it from the standpoint of like, these are, you know, career artists. That's why they are U of M art school professors, because they have actually made it as artists and made careers doing it, and they have some perspective and understanding of like kids who maybe like art and had some technical skill and talent, but maybe don't have what it takes to make it in the art world. And going back to being a curator, it's hard. I've actually now seen it. I've seen it where people have a passion for it, they have an interest in making art, they really are giving it their all. But I I've been in it long enough to be like, you're not gonna make it. Like, there's not enough here. You're just not gonna make it. And so, and even when, you know, I've been very lucky to do guests. At least at this point, at least at this point. At least at this point, yes, yeah. But as someone also has to at some point tell you you're not going to make it, to either dissuade you from wasting a lot of your life doing something you're you don't, you just don't have the skill, talent, or drive to do, or to make you double down on it. Because when I'm telling you, I am the personality I've been told so many things that I have done, so many things I am very literally well known for doing. People have told me, like, you can't, you can't do it like this. You can't do this, you're never gonna make it. And I've been like, hold my fucking beer. Like, I sometimes I need someone to tell me no, in order to be like, all right, well, now I'm really in. Like, it's this weird, like very oppositional, defiant personality that once someone tells me I can't do something and I have the vision of how to do it or how I'm going to do it, I'm like, all right, well, now I'm doubling down. Like I'm actually in this fight for real. Um, but sadly, that is more a personality trait as a grown confident adult, as a child, an 18, 19-year-old. Um, that hearing that from that professor and someone I did admire and like, um, that broke my spirit. So I didn't take a single painting class again. Like, not at that school. I never took a painting class again. Uh, never like I can truly say I am a self-taught oil painter. I took one and a quarter painting classes at U of M, and that was all that I ever took. Cheers. Cheers! Yeah. Which is not to say, like, you know, there's all ways to all things, like doing it, you know, doing apprenticeships and you know, having a master teach you, like, you don't have to be self-made. It's just sometimes there is no path. Otherwise, you it the path is the path you make. So, um, but yeah, so I uh ended up not touching oil paint for years and years and years until I ended up at this gallery as a gallery assistant and then got trained to start helping with painting because I have a great eye for color. So when you have damaged painting, a lot of it is like in painting, like fixing areas, but like color matching, like you really gotta understand color. And there is some brains that don't get it, and some brains that just do. I I can't tell you why because that's not something I was taught, but I can look at the color of something and know exactly the colors I need to make that exact color, just intuitively. Like I can make that. Like I that's incredible. It is some weird little idiosyncrasy inside my brain, but um, so yeah. Really good at that. And uh this gallery director was like, You are quite talented, you should paint. Um, and then um, unfortunately, I did end up getting laid off from that job. We like lost two or three like huge accounts, like like hundred like multiple hundreds of thousand dollars accounts. And I was the last one hired. I was fairly, you know, I'd only worked there a couple years, so he was like, I'm so sorry. I and he's like, I will hire you back when and if I can. I understand if you have to get a job, like I'm sorry this is happening. But he's like, in the meantime, like, you know, you're not being fired. This is you're laid off. So I got to collect unemployment for I think it was like six or seven months. I got to collect unemployment. So, like that was back when life was affordable and living in Detroit was cheap, and my rent was like $500. So I could live off of it. I wasn't living well, but I could easily live off of it. Um, and so during that time I was looking for another job. I just painted, I painted my brains out. And I remember being so devastated when it happened at the time because that was like the first time really, and again, I wasn't fired, but it felt like it. It felt like rejection. It felt like rejection. It felt like, and it felt like losing like the steps forward I had taken. It felt like suddenly going backwards. Uh, but it was one of the best things that ever happened in my life because in that, you know, I it might have even been a little longer than seven months, maybe eight or nine months. It wasn't a full year, but maybe it was closer to like three quarters of a year. During that time, I busted out like four or five huge paintings. Like I took what that gallery director, Mark Doran, said very seriously, and I started painting my ass off. And then I got the call from him that was like, Hey, I have some like side jobs. Like I can pay you to do side jobs. I can't bring you back on full time, but if you want to do this, I was like, Great, I'm in. And after doing a few side jobs for him, like fixing up paintings and um like I don't know, just one afternoon we were talking and he was like, So you but have you been painting? And I'm like, Yes. And um, I brought him in some work to show him, and he was like, There's something here, kid. Like, there's something here. Like, I really hope you understand, like, there's something to this. And then um, super tragically, super horrifically, he ended up passing away like really suddenly. He got on a plane, he was like in his 60s, he got on a plane to um go watch his eldest daughter graduate from um medical school and had like a brain aneurysm rupture and died. So he got on a plane and then we never saw him again. Um, and the gallery obviously had to temporarl. It did end up like coming back because sort of his second in command like bought out his side of it and like brought it back. But um, that was years later, so I had moved on in life. But um, because like sort of the ending story between him and me was this like very talented person in the industry that was like, You've got something here you need to explore. And then he was a little bit like another father figure, honestly. And I didn't know anybody when I moved to Detroit, like literally him and his wife did the finances for the gallery, so and I was like right around all of their daughters' ages, so they did also very much treat me a bit like a daughter. Um, and uh yeah, I was I was pretty, pretty just heartbroken at that, but it gave me like the space and the courage to keep pursuing it because it was basically his kind of last words to me were like, There's something here, and so I started working my ass off and I didn't look back. But it was a couple years into being an artist in Detroit and starting to show a little bit more regularly, but I was really struggling to find opportunities. I was really struggling to get my work into anywhere because I was nobody, like the work was good. It wasn't, you know, anything like it is now, but it was still very good. Um, but unfortunately in the fine art world, it's not always about how good your work is. It's about the connections you have, it's about your reputation. What's your name? It's about your name. And when you're young, you've got no show record, you have no exhibition record to prove you're worth having in a gallery. There's no name behind you, nobody who knows who you are. So sometimes you can make it into shows based on just pure talent, and sometimes you can't. And I was finding it really hard to get into shows or get like build a CV, build opportunities, grow my name, grow my reputation. I was like, well, fuck it. I took, I, you know, I one of my degrees is from uh is in art history, but I got it from the museum and curatorial studies program at U of M that existed at the time. And so it was all about like the history of art through the curatorial lens. So I had a huge interest in artists as curators and like, you know, you know, like Cosmia von Bon, and like the people that came in that were like, we can remove the institutional side of curation and um view curation as a collection of artists that have something to say together in the same space and um sort of haphazardly make that happen. But again, I'm a little bit more of a uh a type A personality. So I was like, if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it in a the right way, in a professional way. Like I'm trying to build something, not just opportunities for artists, but I also want to build something here in Detroit, you know, something to say. Um, so I just started like reaching out to spaces. I found like a gallery space I could rent. I charge like a very minimal, like $10, I think a $10 entry fee to just submit to being in the show, which literally just covered the cost of me renting this space. Um and that was the first uh show I called it Things Feel Heavy. It's after one of my favorite um uh there's a book called The Goth, the Contemporary Gothic, and it's all about the re-emergence of the Gothic and contemporary art world. And there is a um insert from Jerry Saltz, who's a very famous art critic. And in the end, he's like talking about like, I don't know why, you know, the gothic, I don't we we can speculate. I don't really know why, you know, the gothic has re-emerged so heavily at this particular point in time. Um, but in the end, I think, you know, things feel heavy. And I'm like, oh so that's where the name comes from, things feel heavy. And um, I think, boy, does that still fit and resonate today, you know? Oh shit. So yeah, uh, and then I just kept going from there. Like, um, and and and it's interplayed together both my personal art career and then the opportunities that have come out of that for curating and also curating shows and the opportunities for my personal art career have like it's been, you know, in in tandem with each other. They have at one point I curated a show that had an artist in it who was a professor at uh McComb Community College, taught art at Macomb Community College, and they had a really wonderful like guest artist program. They like had like a like a massive stipend. Like, I'm like, this is a community college. Like, how what? Like U of M. I've guest lectured at U of M and they paid me a quarter of that, you know, like crazy. Um, but yeah, I went in and did like a solo show. So I had him in a couple different shows, and he's like, I love your work, I love what you're doing. I've recommended you for our guest artist program, and the director of the program was like, You're perfect, you're exactly what we're looking for. So I came in and did like a guest lecture and a solo show and like a art, you know, a demonstration with the students. And so all of that was because I was curating these shows and happened to have this artist, David Heil, in the show, and he connected me to that. So, and it and has gone the other way too, where um, like one time I was in a group show at the car center, uh, downtown Detroit, and um, it ended up being like not the best attended show, um, which, you know, it's always sort of a bummer when there's not a lot of people there for the shows. But the director, the car center, was on site because there wasn't a ton of people. I ended up striking up this conversation with the director of the car center. And after, you know, 40 minutes into talking, he's like, I want to hire you to curate a show. And he gave me a stipend, an assistant, and all three fours in the car building. I put in like a hundred artists into that show. Yeah, like a hundred artists into that show. And then um at the same time, I also had a painting that was exhibiting at the Charles H. Wright Museum and a contemporary show through the Bombay Bombay Artisan series. And so I had dropped off the painting, met the contemporary curator, and then told her like about this car center show that was opening like in the next week. And she was like, Oh, yeah, I'll try to drop by if I can, because it's right down the street. And um, she ended up coming, seeing it, being like, I this is insane what you've done here. Like, this is this is banana. She's like, Do you want to curate a show at the the Charles H. Wright Museum? So that was the first time I ever got to guest curate at a major museum, become like, you know, a guest curator for a literally internationally recognized museum was because she showed up to this other show. So it's so wild. I I tell artists all the time, creatives, anybody, this is uh this applies to anybody. If you have ambitions to do things with what your life, you gotta leave your house. You gotta just go do things. And everybody is gonna have an opinion about you doing it, whether it's right or wrong. Um, and as long as what you are doing and how you're doing it does not harm people, okay, because if somebody's like, what you're doing and how you're doing it is harmful, okay. Pay attention.

SPEAKER_03 31:57

Go fuck yourself.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Go fuck yourself. Yep. But as long as you have a vision for how to do it and you see a path to doing it, no matter what other people say, if you want it bad enough, chase it down and do it because some other opportunity will come of it. Even if that didn't turn into exactly what you had thought or had aspired for it to be, there's still something that's gonna come out of it. I I will tell young artists, say no to nothing. Say no to nothing. Because even if it's like small potatoes below you, or you think it's below you, as a young artist, nothing's below you, by the way. But if it's small potatoes below where you'd like to be, I guarantee something else will come out of that. Either a connection to another artist, to a conversation with a curator, a conversation with uh, you know, I I have literally had conversations with people that in my young life, maybe not much older than me, have followed my art career and now have bought in full price paintings from me. Well, you know, now that at the time they were probably in their 40s, I was in my mid to late 20s, now they're, you know, in their 50s and 60s and have the kind of money and buy actual art, follow have followed me for 20 years, and now that they can have bought in full price paintings. And they were like, Yeah, I met you at this show like 20 years ago. You stopped and talked to me for like 45 minutes. Yeah. I'm like, oh fuck.

SPEAKER_03 33:10

Just been waiting.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

That's crazy. Yeah. So you never know, you truly never know. And that is the very, very best part about getting older as a person is watching from this side of things why everything had to happen. It's so painful when you're going through hard stuff, but sometimes things have to happen in order for the doors to open on the path where you're supposed to be. Like people have to exit your life, bad shit has to happen, things have to move you, grow you, mold you in ways to move you down onto a path where you're meant to be. And once you're on that path, boy, I'll tell you what, the whole world opens up. Because once you once the universe can push you onto the path you're supposed to be on, and it's that that's the path they want you on, it's open doors everywhere you look. You're now you're like, well, what do I do? And they're like, analysis, paralysis. I'm gonna sit on the couch.

unknown 34:03

I love it.

SPEAKER_03 34:04

Um, all right, you want to go to have a capping?

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Yeah, well, first, is there anything that I didn't cover that you wanted to know about?

SPEAKER_03 34:12

We've been talking for five hours.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

I know, I swear, but truly, and I can't like I was like nervous to come on the podcast. My mom's like, why you love listening to your top talk? I was like, Actually, I think maybe I said it and she laughed and agreed, but for the sake of the story being funnier, my mom said that to me.

SPEAKER_03 34:27

I love it. I love it. All right. Uh also there's a bit of a maybe a hard turn here.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Okay, yeah, hard turn it.

SPEAKER_03 34:34

When you're gone, what do you hope people say about you?

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Oh my god. Um, that's an amazing question because I can tell you how the massiveness in which that has changed now. If you would have asked me that question 10 years ago, I would have wanted people to remember me for my work, my talent, my skill, my drive, what I built in the world. And now I know this is cliche, but I truly believe this with my whole heart. I want people to remember feeling loved by me. That's it. I want their takeaway to be like when I was around her, I felt seen, heard, appreciated, and loved. Um, because I have realized out of as I've gotten older and I now have the open doors to bigger opportunities, to, you know, like stars in the field, you know, some of the artists I now have spent time with and museums I have been in, and curators and all of this, um, these are really people who have made it. And being around them, um, I get now the saying of like, don't always meet your heroes. Like, not everybody's great. Because and and the people in my life that stand out like shining stars, it is because I feel so seen, welcome, and loved by them. And my true number one goal in life is to swallow my own bill bullshit as much as I can um when that stuff comes up and really try to make sure people are loved. Like, I don't know what else we're doing here because um, and one of the things I kind of want to get back to, which I'm gonna do a little bit here, is the um I think it's really funny being a tattoo artist and an oil painter because people talk about tattoos as a forever thing. Oh, you're getting in, it's forever. And I'm like, well, that's really funny because if forever is just how like you die, your body rots in the ground. So it's like you get this tattoo at 20, you've maybe got 60, 65, 70 maybe years, and that tattoo doesn't exist anymore because your body doesn't exist anymore. Whereas like we have oil paintings that are thousands and thousands and thousands of years old. So the idea of forever is so different to me as a like there is a absolute beauty and the ephemeralness that is tattoos, like they last as long as you are here and they go with you. But oil paintings, that's you're leaving this cipher of history behind for entire civilizations to come after you and to interpret as like what was going on in the world at the time. So I think that's funny and interesting. But um, yeah, there's a of course I hope that my work is impactful and people take something away from it. Um, I hope people look at it and feel uh validated that they're not alone in their experiences of the world, both the the beauty and the pain of it. Um, but the one thing I want personally to be remembered for is when I was with her, I've I was loved.

SPEAKER_03 37:33

That's beautiful. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 37:35

Um finish the thought.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:37

Creativity requires passion.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

I know it's a cliche, but it's true. Creativity it requires passion. Like you really you have to be passionate about everything. You have to be passionate about your drive and ambition to pursue it. Um if you want it as a lifelong kind of career. Um life is exhausting, right? Like, look at like everyone is exhausted. We're so tired. The amount of times I have met, seen, and heard super talented people that were artists once upon a time, then they got a 40-hour a week job and they're just like too exhausted, and eventually they stopped making art. That's really devastating to watch that kind of talent sort of on the wayside, um, because life is exhausting. So you have to be so uncomfortably passionate about wanting to make things that it actually like is upsetting to not make them. Like there are long periods of time I will go without like you need rest, you need respite from your work, you need you need respite from the the inner workings of your own mind mostly, I think. Um, and you also need time to just like be a person and relax and enjoy. So it's okay to take breaks, but there will get to a point where the break has been long enough that it it's like unsettling how it feels inside my body to not make things. Like it's like it's n it's like uh it's a need. It's literally a need.

SPEAKER_03 39:02

It feels wrong.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

It feels wrong. It feels something is off.

SPEAKER_03 39:04

Um do you know do you know James Victoria? So he's uh um uh designer, artist, um Living? Yeah, okay. Yes, uh he's also a uh creative coach, and uh he's uh he was telling the story about how um you know he'll talk to different creatives and stuff. They're like, man, my job just doesn't let me like create or like I I don't have the time to go do the things that make me me. And he's like, Well, that's not your job. You're you're sitting in somebody else's chair. Yeah, get the fuck out. You know, I just love that. That's what that reminded me of. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Yeah, so I think passion, you really you have to want it with everything in you. It like you have to want it to a point where it like bothers you not to have it, yeah, where it sits wrong in your body.

SPEAKER_03 39:50

What would your last meal be?

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Oh my god, bread. Just bread like like fresh out of the oven, fresh baked bread, like with olive oil and butter and herbs. Just I'm Dutch. Every meal is like bread, meat, and potatoes. I but I've been a vegetarian literally since I was 12. So, like bread and potatoes, just everything. My favorite food is bread, period.

SPEAKER_03 40:12

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Nothing fancy, just bread.

SPEAKER_03 40:15

Uh, what's the best or the worst advice you've ever received?

SPEAKER_00 40:19

I don't think painting is your thing. Yeah, I thought I knew that was a good thing. Um best advice, you know, and I don't even I can't like pinpoint a source where it comes from, but I think the best advice I would say for everybody to really hold on to is again, if you want it bad enough, you can have it, but you really need to work for it. I I I worry a little bit about some of the generations now coming up behind us. Um, I love their views on the world, I love the morals and ethics they seem to be cultivating, but um, I worry a little bit about their drive to go get it. And it's understandable because look, they have been born into a monstrous world, like like uh almost a world that feels lacking in hope. And when there's no hope, like how do you you know get up and push every day? But um I will say you can not that there's nothing off limits to like yes, I like I, you know, there are yes, there are things that are always going to be off limits to certain people, but um if you want something bad enough, you might not be able to get it the way you want it, but there is a way to it in a w in a world or in a in there's a pathway to it in a way that you can make it for yourself, but you really have to be willing to work hard ten times harder than everyone around you. There are most periods in my time where I, you know, between curating, between the national press photography work, between the fine art, between the tattooing, like I'm pulling 70, 80 hour weeks. Like people they see the easy side of things, they see the opportunities that come on the other side of that. They did not see the 80-hour weeks of just grinding, grinding, exhausted, like zombie-like, trying to pull this stuff off. Um, and the toll that that also takes, like be willing to pay a price at some point, like, especially as you get older, your body will pay that for you. But um, yeah, I think the advice is like if you want it bad enough, chase it down.

SPEAKER_03 42:32

Go fucking get it.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Go fucking get it.

SPEAKER_03 42:35

Um, what would your walk-up song be? What is your walk-up song?

SPEAKER_00 42:40

It's probably like Nirvana's, like, I'm a freak. I fucking love it. Oh my god. That's a hard one. I wish I had more time to think about that, but that was the first thing that came to my feet.

SPEAKER_03 42:51

I love that. I love that. Um what what makes you feel most like yourself?

SPEAKER_00 42:57

Well, truthfully, I I think uh I go back to painting every time because it's the I being in the studio with like a cat sleeping in the corner, which like my little soulmate baby, he's my little studio cat. He's just like wherever I go, he goes. He has like his own chair in the studio where he just car curl up and like sit with me. But um I think being in the studio with a little cat sleeping in the corner painting is truly the only times in my life where I can say I felt whole. Like there are um there's so much about life I love, there's so many things about life that are hard, but um there seems to be if the feeling of something missing when I'm doing anything other than painting, like I'm not doing something I should be doing. Um, and I would maybe say like a little caveat. I feel it when I'm really in a groove with like a client I love and we're working on, you know, a huge piece together. It's like a very collaborative thing and ideas, and it's just like a wonderful mesh. Because obviously you have some clients, you're just your personalities are like you know, instant best friend now. Um, including my birthday twin, uh, who is now one of my favorite people in the world. Um, she was a client. We met, I was like tattooing her. We ended up realizing we literally have the same birthday. Like, we were like, oh, we're birthday twins. That's so weird, which makes sense because we're literally the same person. Um, but yeah, like I would say painting and maybe like the connectivity to a client in the moment of like connecting as a human, connecting through art, connecting through just like sharing the world, both good and bad, like what's going on, and um making a space for just like a person to show up is the t the times are I feel whole.

SPEAKER_03 44:48

Do you have any regrets?

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Yeah, of course. Every other regret. I mean I don't think there's a person on the planet that wouldn't regret anything.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

I will sometimes people tell me no, and I could just I could just smell the bullshit.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

Yeah, that's bullshit. I'm sorry. There's like everybody would have done something different at some point. I think truthfully, one of my biggest regrets, I uh I had a really hard time in high school and middle school. I was bullied quite a lot. Um people never believe me, but I was like pretty overweight. I was really really chubby, and um there's like a group, a core group of like the popular boys who were like quite cruel, to be honest. Like they would like make snort like pig noises at me in the hallway. And um uh it's all okay. We all we grow from all of our experiences, but that I did, I took a lot of insecurity away from that. That took a long time to eradicate from like the core of who I am. But I still there's like times where like I it's like the insecurity will creep back in enough I can touch it and be like, oh no, fucking sage of the house, it's back, you know. Um, but uh I think what I regret is um because I was hurting so much, I was not who I am today in terms of like my openness. Um, like I would I I'm not sure I would say like I was mean to other people, but I was very closed off. I was very, I was so just hurt and like opening yourself up to more pain was painful. So I was just very shut down, I was very closed off. I really didn't I think I like didn't like other people and I very I was very um very walled off in throughout all of high schools. I was not mean, but I was unkind, I think. And um I don't know, there's a few people in particular I can think about that like I look I think about them now as adults and thought like man that's a person that probably just really needed a friend and I did not extend myself in that way. And I think part of it was being young, which isn't really an excuse. Part of it is being hurt myself, and part of it was just like I really need to grow up and realize like the only thing that actually matters here is other people, like all the rest of it. This is just silly, like people are what matter. Um, and if I could go back and do it again, I think even if those same boys wanted to pick on me, I think I would still choose to show up kind.

SPEAKER_03 47:10

Name names, let's get them.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

No, no, no, those little shits know who they are.

SPEAKER_03 47:16

Um okay, last question. Are you okay?

SPEAKER_00 47:21

Oh man. That's a great question. Uh it's a difficult question. Um because in my day-to-day, uh, I'm very blessed. I, you know, I come from a loving and supportive family. Um I have the most amazing, like absolutely like shockingly amazing group of human beings in my life around me. Um and in fact, actually, it's one of the few things I will remind myself when I'm getting down on myself, when I can feel myself just like you are nothing, you're worth like whatever. When I'm getting down on myself, the one thing that snaps me out of it quicker than anything is actually looking at the friends around me and going, no, no, you actually must be a quite exceptional person because people of this caliber wouldn't be interested in being your friend if you weren't a wonderful human, too. Like, whatever bad things you're thinking about yourself, like these people wouldn't put up with it. Um, like you, I I'm so fortunate. I just the the coolest friends, clients. I have a wonderful partner. Um, I have a job that I love. I wake up every day excited to do what I do. I have a wonderful career that's still building, and watching it grow like year to year to year is still just like dumbfounding. I'm so grateful for my life. I have a cute little home in Detroit. You know, it's nothing fancy, but it's mine. I have a colony of cats, and for the most part, everyone is happy and healthy. And um, so I personally have nothing to complain about, and my corner of the world is a beautiful corner of the world. I've worked very hard to make it a beautiful corner of the world, but my heart is broken about what we are seeing day to day. I am broken by it, and I am watching people I love broken by this world, um, by the hatred, by the xenophobia, the transphobia, the misogyny, the just all of it is heartbreaking and is relentless. Is relentless and um so yeah, I guess even my last message there is like I'm okay. Um and the last thing I would probably say to people is find your community, find your support. We are all we have in this world. Like no one is coming to save us, but we will be there for each other, and I feel very grateful to have people that are just endlessly supportive and loving, and I am a lucky person.

SPEAKER_03 49:57

Amazing. Anna, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

Thank you, thank you for having me on. This was lovely and uh amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:04

Uh before we go, where can people find you?

SPEAKER_00 50:06

Um, so I do have a website which is so old school. I feel like such a millennial, elder millennial, and I'm like, eh. So uh my name, Anna Van Skop. It's just Anavanskop.com. Uh A-N-N-A-V-A-N-S-C-H-A-A-P dot com. But I exactly how it sounds. Yep, exactly how it sounds. Uh, but I um and it's updated for the most part as a website, it's not like I'm on it every day. But uh Instagram is honestly the best place. That's the platform that I keep most updated, that I post like behind the scenes, like work in the studio. It's where I'll post like upcoming shows I have or like what I'm doing, what's going on. Um, you know, I also will say it's where I go on like political and feminist rants, so just be like be prepared. But um, yeah, no uh Instagram. So I have my art Instagram. It is the other underscore twisted sister.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

The other twisted sister. Um, and then if you want to see my tattoo work or book tattoos through me, you can find me um so the other underscore twisted sister tattoos. And then if you want to see any work that I have done as a member of the National Press Photography Association covering tons of protests and um activist political movements, which we didn't talk about that. I know I've done too, it's too much. Too much. It's gonna have to have you back. Well, great, perfect. Um, but you can find that work if you want to see any of that through the other underscore twisted sister photos. So awesome. If you Google the one, you'll find all three accounts, and you can stay up to date on all the various debaucherous things I am doing in the world.

SPEAKER_03 51:39

So awesome. And uh again, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 51:41

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 51:41

All right, you want to get out of here?

SPEAKER_00 51:42

I'm gonna be out of here. Thank you very much. That was wonderful to be here.

SPEAKER_03 51:46

Okay, and with that, that wraps up season seven of the Bad Idea Social Club podcast.

SPEAKER_02 51:53

That's crazy, dude. Anyways, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 51:55

Yeah, it's it's fucking wild. I like I feel like we just started.

SPEAKER_02 51:59

I know. What are we doing?

SPEAKER_03 52:01

I don't know. But I do want to say thank you to everybody who's been listening and watching. Um, we had a little bit of a platform shift. Not really, I mean, we had some we had some bullshit to deal with with some like hosting and stuff. So uh I I hope it didn't come off this way, but it was a little bit uh rocky. But I fucking loved all the conversations we had. Um super thank you to Amy Carroll, Ryan Wasson, Hannah Barry, Joel Hoekstra, um A B, Mark Stein, Luke Grill, Sarah Pulver, and of course Ann Evans Cop.

SPEAKER_02 52:36

And we've already started pre-production for season eight. We got um a few names on the list for people we're gonna be reaching out to, but we also got plans for bonus episodes and things that are gonna happen in the interim before season eight. So um just stay in touch with our socials, make sure you're checking things out because we got events we're planning. We're just gonna be doing a lot of stuff and we want you to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_03 52:57

Yeah, yeah, we're gonna be around.

SPEAKER_02 52:58

Just know I always want you there, period. I love it. Whoever you are, I want you there. All right. Well, um, I it's almost like I don't want to say goodbye to it. This one was special. I know. Let's just keep it going. And we gotta do it with y'all.

SPEAKER_03 53:15

We need your help, so let's do this. If you or anyone you know has been enjoying the podcast and want to be a part of this fucking thing that we're trying to build here, reach out, say something. You know what I mean? We're always looking for great people with interesting stories. Uh, the only caveat, no shitheads.

SPEAKER_02 53:31

Done deal.

SPEAKER_03 53:32

Worst case scenario, we end up getting uh coffee or a beer or something. Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

Yeah, hell yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:38

All right. Well, we'll see ya.

SPEAKER_02 53:42

It's like the most Midwestern goodbye of a podcast I've ever heard in my life.

unknown 53:51

I can't even make them go away.

SPEAKER_03 53:55

Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made possible by merch sales, reviews, and listener support. And it's created and hosted by me, graphic designer Ed McCall, and co-hosted by photographer Joe Madison. Music is noises by Mike Mates and the branches. Get Bad Idea Social Club wherever you get your podcast.