Capturing the Horizon: The Digital Odyssey of Demas Rusli, Architect-Turned-Photographer, E031

Demas Rusli is a photographer and designer whose architectural roots have deeply influenced his eye-catching approach to urban and aerial photography. From the hustle of cityscapes to the serene expanse of the skies, Demas details his seamless transition from architecture to content creation, and the role his education has played in shaping his distinctive visual narratives.

I sat down to chat with him about his journey, and lessons that he has learned along the way. We dissect his strategies that led to a massive following on TikTok and Instagram, and the confidence that magnetized global brands like Adidas to his doorstep, all without sending a single pitch email. We delve into the philosophical debates surrounding photo editing and confront the purists who question its legitimacy. Demas offers his perspective on the infusion of AI into photography, and we also unravel the practicalities of a photographer's life, managing freelance gigs, and navigating the burgeoning world of NFTs. Listeners will gain an inside look at the life of a Lightroom Ambassador and the avenues for monetizing one's passion in today's digital landscape.

Photography is an art that constantly evolves, and Demas is at the forefront, challenging the status quo. But, his life as a creative is not without its trials. We candidly discuss how Demas and contemporaries maneuver through the minefield of negative feedback and gatekeeping within online communities. Find out how engaging in sports acts as a catalyst for Demas's creative thinking, offering a necessary respite to rejuvenate his artistic spirit. His journey is a blueprint for maintaining authenticity in one's work, the impact of genuine engagement on social media, and the pursuit of success on one's own terms.

Demas is an extremely humble and pleasant man to talk with, and I truly appreciate his sincerity and authenticity he brings to the conversation. Please follow his work at the below links....

Instagram: @demas
Website: https://www.demasrusli.com

Thank you for listening and for being a part of this incredible community. You can also watch this episode on my YouTube channel (link below) where I also share insights, photography tips and behind-the-scenes content on my channel as well as my social media, so make sure to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and TikTok or check out my website for my complete portfolio of work.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

I grew 170,000 followers on TikTok in one day.

Speaker 2: 0:05

That's insane. Why did you quit your job? Um, you're the first photographer I've ever spoken to that's never sent a pitch email.

Speaker 1: 0:13

The first brand that reached out to me was actually Adidas. Wow, there was a guy that followed me and he's commenting negative comments on every post and I'm like why are you following me?

Speaker 2: 0:22

You hear about some horror stories with suicides and depressions Never think you know everything.

Speaker 1: 0:28

How can you push that one technique to another level Do?

Speaker 2: 0:31

you feel like you're a content creator or a photographer.

Speaker 1: 0:35

I think the video is that do the best that always like that.

Speaker 2: 0:42

Demis Rosley is a Sydney based photographer, designer, lightroom and Samsung ambassador, who specializes in urban architecture and aerial photography and pushes the boundaries of photography through unique perspectives and creative editing techniques. He's worked with some of the biggest names out there and it was humbling to see how honest and grounded he is For a photographer who's never pitched a job before in his life. I was in awe of his confidence and skill level to be able to attract the success that he has done. We talked a lot about the business side of his photography and honed in on what drives him creatively. Furthermore, we chatted about his architectural influence. That seems to be the undercurrent to his style.

Speaker 2: 1:29

Demis is hugely active and successful on social media. Of course, we touched upon those challenges that we see as a photographer in today's world. Of course, we talked about many other topics as well. Now I bring you Demis Rosley. Welcome to the Mood Podcast. It's a pleasure to have you on and for us to be spending the second day of 2024 together for a little bit. The privilege is all mine. Thank you so much for taking the time and I'm really looking forward to this chat.

Speaker 1: 2:10

Thank you for having me. Yeah, nice to meet you.

Speaker 2: 2:13

Let's start with a quick intro as to who you are For people who may not know you there's hundreds of thousands that do know you. But for people that don't, can you give us a little introduction, a little bit of a little bit of a picture as to who you are? Demis Rosley.

Speaker 1: 2:29

So, yeah, my name is Demis Rosley. I'm a photographer and designer based in Sydney, australia. I picked up a camera at the same time. Like I started my Instagram account in 2012, which is, wow, it's over. It's 12 years ago now. And yeah, at the time I was doing university, I was doing architecture, and then I finished architecture school, while still posting on social media, worked in an architecture office for five years and during that time, I started to my Instagram account, kind of grew over time and started to get a few jobs here and there, and then, during the pandemic, I quit my architecture job and became a full-time freelance photographer. So, yeah, that's me in a nutshell.

Speaker 1: 3:21

My photography style leads more towards creative editing and travel, but it's all to do with, like, how to push photography to another level and like try different things and teaching people how to look at things in different ways. I guess, why did you quit your job? So I was actually enjoying my job, like I was in. I really liked the people and the work was really cool, because I worked in one of the bigger Sydney architecture firms and we were designing like big skyscrapers and really large apartment buildings. But photography got like too much. Like I started to travel a lot more and then I started to do, I started to get a lot more offers in terms of photography jobs.

Speaker 1: 4:14

So towards the last like two, three years of my work, I became part-time and I had this really cool deal with the office where if I'm only meant to work like three and a half days a week, like on contractually, but if I work five and I don't have any jobs at that moment, that one and a half days goes towards my leave, so like I could just be working five days a week and then all of a sudden after a month I get like a week off. Essentially right, it's added to my leave. So then whenever I get a job I can just go. Hey, I got to travel here for a week and then that's sort of a really cool deal because I can kind of travel whenever. And then when the pandemic hit, the office started like didn't have enough work so they told all the part-time staff to go and leave. So I ended up being on leave for about two months Pay leave.

Speaker 1: 5:10

And then I would no unpaid leave. Unpaid leave, yeah. So it was unpaid leave for two months, but I think I already deep down wanted to leave, like maybe a year before, and I felt like I could have because I was already getting enough work and getting enough income from photography. And then I felt like it was just the push that I needed to make the jump In that time. In the two months that I was off, I started a TikTok account and that was when, like, tiktok was starting to grow for a lot of people and then I was like, let's just mess around, see what happens. I started posting like two, three videos a day on TikTok just from like old footage that I had, and then it was pretty crazy Like one of the videos I posted blew up, went viral and I grew 170,000 followers on TikTok in one day, which is pretty crazy 170,000 in one day.

Speaker 1: 6:14

Yeah, on TikTok, which is one video.

Speaker 2: 6:16

And now my.

Speaker 1: 6:17

TikTok has more followers than on Instagram, which is pretty crazy.

Speaker 2: 6:22

Okay, so rewind a little bit, because architecture interests me and there's an inextricable link, I guess, between architecture and photography. Right, what was it about photography that made you kind of transition?

Speaker 1: 6:40

So I picked up photography kind of randomly because when I was in second year of university, my cousin from Indonesia he had a job in Sydney which is like a pre-wedding photo shoot. So he came here with a couple and he didn't know anywhere in Sydney. So he messaged me as like hey, can you help me be an assistant for the weekend? Like can you help us drive and like change lenses, hold flash for him, stuff like that. But at the time I knew nothing about photography, I'd never shot with a camera before, I'd never, never, like nothing. And when I was helping him it was really eye opening because we went to like these epic mountains in Sydney, like called the snowy mountains, and the scenery was amazing and the couple was happy, my cousin was happy and like it was such a good time.

Speaker 1: 7:30

And then during that trip I just started to take photos of my phone, like just for fun, and it was just like a really old smartphone at the time. And then, yeah, and then I just like fell in love with just capturing things, like just seeing, like editing, capturing. And then, as I kept going with that and I just kept taking more photos of things I thought was interesting, I decided to play around with it when I'm editing, because when I'm in architecture school we learn how to use Photoshop and we learn how to manipulate images. Manipulate like create things from scratch, essentially right, because it's all like a design that's in your head and you have to represent it in a really interesting way in graphics and in in post-reform and stuff like that. And so there was one time where I just said what happens if I just like mirror this or flip the city upside down and then like it's kind of snowballed from there and that's sort of how maybe I set myself a little bit apart from other photographers at the beginning I can certainly see.

Speaker 2: 8:38

I mean looking through your work and been following you for a while. But actually looking a bit deeper into this is the problem with social media. Right, you might follow someone but you don't really know who they are, what they're, you know the depth of their work. So once I started looking a little bit deeper into you and your work, blown away with the creativity of a lot of shots that I guess most photographers would deem not simple but like a simple concept, right, whether it's a cityscape or landscape or an aerial shot, you kind of take that concept and you just juggle it all around and just kind of completely flip it on its head, sometimes literally, right, I mean, I think, remembering one of your shots, it might have been in Hong Kong but, like you said, it was the city upside down and I think it was someone standing on a cliff or something.

Speaker 2: 9:38

Yeah, I mean super cool, like really freaky, because you know your brain doesn't really process that naturally as a kind of image. You have to kind of take a second look at it, which is what photography is all about. Right, and was that a conscious? It was just trial and error by the sounds of it, but once you kind of had that idea, how easy was it to kind of run with it and, more importantly, did you get jobs from that type of style?

Speaker 1: 10:10

I have gotten jobs a little bit from that type of style. But also, I think architecture at school really kind of played with my mind and how I see the world, I guess. So I'm always starting to question things why is this like that or why is that like that? What happens if I flip this? What happens if this is like this? And I start to question the world a lot more when I was starting architecture. But then I mean, I also follow a bunch of other graphic artists and photographers who do this kind of stuff as well. So you get inspired quite easily, especially on Instagram, like, you see quite a lot of stuff where sometimes it's like you don't know if it's a real photo or not, and I kind of sometimes take that on board and use that for my own photography as well, does the impending influence of AI, I guess, scare you or impact you in any of your work?

Speaker 2: 11:21

Because, like you said, there are a lot of images these days that you could mistake for AI or vice versa. Right, how does that play into your role in your workflow, if at all?

Speaker 1: 11:36

So the only form of AI I currently use is just the new generative field tool in Photoshop. That actually helps me a lot because I like to clean up my photos, like get rid of the people in the background and like sometimes add some clouds or just add a bit more interest to it. So that actually has saved me a lot of time and I haven't really messed around with like straight up image generation type of AI. I would really play around much with that, but maybe in the future. I'm not against it at all. I'm really excited about what AI can bring and I think like advancements in technology is always a good thing because like it really pushes you and like really pushes your creativity and see how different you can be right in your own form of art.

Speaker 2: 12:28

Absolutely. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. What is your favorite? I mean, you're a very diverse photographer, right? I don't know whether you would say you have one specific style because you do so many different types of photography, but what is your favorite? If you were to just get up one morning, you've got nothing to do other than get a camera, go shoot. What is what comes to the forefront of your mind.

Speaker 1: 12:56

Probably architecture and shooting cities and urban environments, finding like cool new architecture in the city or like some sort of structure that like makes us feel small and like this really grand structure, like it's more to do with like human scale and the building around us or the city around us, I guess. But I also love to shoot nature, I don't know. I just like to explore new places, even old places, explore them to see, like, what new angles you can get. It's always good to revisit places you've been to as well.

Speaker 2: 13:36

Yeah, I mean that makes sense, I guess with your architectural background I'm interested to kind of dig a little bit deeper into almost like your minimalist style with architecture, because I absolutely love it. But there's something in your brain that is kind of wanting you to express how small I guess humans are. Is that more philosophical kind of expression as to our place in the universe or is it just kind of, you know, you like the way these images look?

Speaker 1: 14:08

I think that also stemmed from like architecture school, because when we design buildings in architecture school, we're always told to put a human figure inside it just to show the sense of scale and like how big it is. Are you a massive person inside this space? Are you feeling claustrophobic, or are you inside this grand space where it's, like you know, really massive and like super high ceilings and whatnot? And then that translated into my photography, because I always try to put a human in it or some sort of human element. In what way? Maybe a car or a plane, something that people can relate to. And so, yeah, I think it's more about showing scale and being able to relate, give someone a bit of relationship to the photo as well. Like, what do I, what does it feel like for me to be in the photo, or what does it feel like for a person which is someone looking at it to be in that?

Speaker 2: 15:04

space. You seem to put yourself in a lot of your photos. Is that right? I'm not sure if I can, because the subject is so far away. It may be someone else, but it it a lot, a lot of the time looks like it's mostly my wife. Oh is it.

Speaker 1: 15:17

Yeah, it's mostly my wife in my photos because when we would travel together I just kind of get her to stand in the, in the space or wherever it needs to be Either my wife or like. Sometimes, if it's a street photo, just like someone walking past, and I try to capture that.

Speaker 2: 15:33

Talk to me a little bit more about your creative editing. You talked about this earlier Like what do you exactly mean by that?

Speaker 1: 15:40

I just mean like. I think people, whenever people talk about photography like, it's always just like. There's always a line where it's like how far is too far when it comes to editing and like, is it still considered photography and like that kind of stuff? So that's a question I ask myself, I guess a lot. And also, whenever I post something like a lot of not a lot, but like because things go more viral now on reels and on Tik Tok, there's people who don't follow me, who just randomly see it and be like this is not photography, this is whatever they want to call it. Right, I don't know what.

Speaker 1: 16:23

It could be graphics or like photo manipulation or something, but to me it's still photography, because I take all the pieces of it myself, like, I go out and take the pieces and like and then people say, oh, if you, if you're a good photographer, you don't need to edit anything or like play that you know like. There's that school of thought as well. But then sometimes it's like what if I did take a good photo, but I also want to play around with it? There's nothing wrong with that either, and it's a form of art and it's a form of like self expression. So yeah, for me, like photo editing can be something from like literally color grading a photo all the way to yeah, like we said earlier, like flipping cities upside down or like adding my own reflection or removing people from the scene, stuff like that. So like that's sort of what I mean by creative photography or creative editing, creative editing, yeah, yeah, interesting.

Speaker 2: 17:24

So this kind of conversation, I guess, discussion with with many people, whether it's online or in person, and you know, with regards to editing, where's the line of stuff. But it's in my opinion I say this all the time photography is just an edit of what you're perceiving through your own eyes, right, you're taking a tool, this metal box, essentially, and putting editing your whole 180 degrees field of view into that little box, and you're so before you, even actually as soon as you, before you even press the shutter button, you're editing what you see and what real life is right, because you're cutting out 99% of what you see. So, for people who who say that kind of stuff are ignorant and pretentious because they're trying to purify something that isn't pure, but you are editing something from the minute you pick up a camp, probably even before, because you're thinking about what you want to shoot and how you want to, how you want to shoot it and what you want it to look like, right, this fucking editing. So I, you know, I just don't buy that argument. It just depends, like you know, there isn't a line, really there isn't that line where photography becomes graphic design or whatever you might call it Now AI design or AI imaging or whatever, but, like you said, if you're picking, if you're getting the any piece of that image with a camera, then it's photography, right, it just is. So, yeah, I don't. I don't buy that argument from people who say that crap. I mean that AI came into our world prominently in 2022, but it's been around for years in photography, whether in camera or in computer. It's been around for ages and people are perfectly happy to use it. That's just a misnomer, in my opinion.

Speaker 2: 19:34

Anyway, what is your status right now in terms of, I guess, as a photographer in inverted quotation marks Are you a freelance photographer? Do you? I know you have a YouTube channel. How does the business all get constructed with your label as a photographer now, what do you do? What is your daily work schedule look like? Do you work with brands, clients? Do you sell art? Do you monetize YouTube? How does it all fit into making a business out of photography? I guess is basically what I'm asking.

Speaker 1: 20:16

Other than that, last year I was a Lightroom Ambassador, which is also a 12 month contract, so that was really cool to be able to meet all the other Lightroom Ambassador. I think Luke has been on this podcast as well. He was also a Lightroom Ambassador, so I got to meet him last year, which is super cool. And then there's other jobs that come about throughout the year which I don't know when it's going to come, which is kind of the scary part of being a freelancer. But just looking back on the past few years, it's kind of consistently been coming through maybe once every month or once every few months.

Speaker 1: 20:52

So I've done work in the past for brands like Audi, Emirates, what else? Pokemon Go, Uber, Kashi just a bunch of random things that come about via email, which is super cool because I don't know what's going to be coming next or who's going to be reaching out next. And then what else was there, yeah? And then there's like a bit of YouTube income from AdSense, but that's not too much at all. And I also have a Print Store which I sell some of my photos online on a Print Store website Awesome.

Speaker 2: 21:29

What a portfolio. I love it A lot. To kind of unpack there. Let's talk quickly about about prints, because you mentioned that last. But how well do you do with those? I mean, I would have one of your prints in a heartbeat, but I'm one of those old school guys that likes hanging prints on walls. Have you seen a kind of downward trend in that and, if so, how have you adapted?

Speaker 1: 21:54

I would say I don't sell too many prints. I find that I don't know. Maybe my photos are not like the style that people want in their home. Maybe it's a bit too crazy sometimes, but it's like I don't know, I don't know right, because maybe people want photos of beaches and things that I don't know that calm them down. Maybe, I don't know, I do have photos of them, but on my store there's some of that and there's also some of the stuff that's more popular on social media as well. In terms of downward trends, I think it's just been pretty steady, but it's not high steady, it's been low steady. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 22:38

Yeah, yeah, interesting. I would love to see prints come back, but it's not going to happen. I mean, I guess that it's kind of evolved into NFTs. Now, really, if you want to sell off, have you doubled in NFTs at all?

Speaker 1: 22:56

A little bit, not too much when Beeple was growing heaps. You know, when Beeple was like, he sold that massive one. I actually met him at Adobe Max a few years ago before all this NFTs stuff blew up. Super cool guy and he's really talented and he's super like post every day right. So he's like always so driven and just always busy. But I did double a little bit.

Speaker 2: 23:23

I sold a few, but I'm not really in the space I would say it feels almost like a closed space not closed, that's the wrong word, but there are some barriers to entry to kind of get in that space. It's such a community there, but almost a little bit cliquey, where you have to just spend so much time kind of getting to know that space, that community, for them to get to know you, immersing yourself in the collectors world as much as the artistic world with NFTs, and it's super exciting. I mean, I'm really attracted by it. It's just trying to find a clear transition to go right. I'm going to put a lot of my time every day now into NFTs, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I would never want to do it halfheartedly, right? So it's an interesting space to watch.

Speaker 2: 24:19

Certainly, tell me a little bit more about. Yeah, we had Luca. I know, you know some of the people here in Bali, some of the photographers and we've had a few of them on. Luca is amazing, super happy to see him get the ambassadorship this. Well, no, last year, I guess, now 2023. What is that process like? So, for people who are on the outside and see the ambassadors get kind of awarded with their ambassadorship each year, is there an application process? Do they reach out to you? And then what happens when you get that ambassadorship? Is there a certain kind of number of tasks you have to do every month, every year? Just tell us a little bit about what being a Lightroom Ambassador means.

Speaker 1: 25:04

So, yeah, they did reach out to apply. So it wasn't like you reach out and you get it straight away, but you reach out and you fill in an application form and like, basically you're right, why you think you should be a Lightroom Ambassador, and like just a bunch of questions that they ask. And then I was fortunately chosen to be one of them. And then throughout the year there's like meetings. So like every three months we would do a Zoom call as like big group and we would chat about Lightroom updates and like what we think could be improved and just basically get to know each other. But throughout the year we had to do, I think, one post a month. So it's pretty like not too crazy amount of like deliverables one post a month and a couple of stories a month. And then on top of that, we will also give an extra budget to do a passion project. So I'd never explored Europe before. So my passion project was to travel to Europe for the first time with my wife and we captured like a lot of photos and explore all the new architecture which was amazing to see. And, yeah, and on top of that, we get to meet all the other Lightroom ambassadors during Adobe Mac. So all of us went to this 1B conference in LA and, yeah, it was super fun just to meet all of them in person because they're all like super talented, they're all really good at what they do and, yeah, it's awesome to meet like-minded people.

Speaker 1: 26:35

Who's your favorite photographer? Oh, I don't know. That's a really really tough question. Give me a few. When I was on the come up I don't know if that's the right word, but when I was really looking at Instagram, like oh, that's so cool, I want to be like that or whatever there was a guy called NK7. He doesn't post too much anymore, but he's from Shanghai, if I'm not wrong, or he's definitely from China, but I think he lives in Shanghai now but like he would be a big inspiration. Jord Hammond was a really big inspiration as well when I first started, but yeah, it was kind of like those guys who explore cool cities and travel the world and like find really cool angles of buildings. So those guys would probably be like inspiration for me when I was starting out.

Speaker 2: 27:41

What about now? Who inspires you now?

Speaker 1: 27:45

I don't know. It's really tough because, like, I think it's like such a different space now, like it's more about like how to get this trend and like make it your own and stuff like that and like like that sort of the like TikTok videos real videos are all about like, oh, there's this trend, there's this trending music.

Speaker 1: 28:09

Like how can you put your own twist to this trending music or trend? You know that kind of stuff. There's a guy you probably know, carl Shacor. He's pretty cool. I really like his work. Whenever he does something, it's always just like 100% and he goes hard. So, like his super cool short stash. Like these guys are all like friends of mine, like really cool people that I've met through photography, so like yeah, just basically, yeah, people doing cool stuff, that's awesome. Yeah, I like I love both of their videos.

Speaker 2: 28:45

Tell me a little bit about TikTok. What do you do on TikTok in terms of videos? As a photographer, you know making motion stuff Like how do you, how did you approach that? And you know how did you find, I guess, relative success in them. I think the videos that do the best are always like the educational ones, so I think that's the best. I think that's the best. I think that's the best, I think that's the best.

Speaker 1: 29:11

I think the videos that do the best are always like the educational ones, so teaching people how to edit something, or teaching people how to shoot something, or telling people a certain location of where this is, or you know that kind of stuff. Those are usually the ones that do the best. Yeah, so I try to lean more towards making those types of videos. And it's really strange because, like in the past, before TikTok and Reels came about, you just go out and take a photo and be like oh yeah, I'm going to go home and edit this and then post the final results.

Speaker 1: 29:44

Right Like, you don't really record too much behind the scenes, you don't really record the process, but now when I'm out shooting, it's, it's, it's very different. It's like, hey, tell them, can you please record me, take this photo? It's like it's a bit of a more things to think about, because you never know when that video or that clip of you doing something might be handy in the future. So you just try to capture as many different angles of something, of me doing something, as possible. Right Like. Sometimes I'd be like, oh, I'll set a tripod over there, I don't know. And then different. Yeah, yeah, just see, see what happens.

Speaker 2: 30:23

Is that? How much time do you put into that and that's a kind of a daily thing.

Speaker 1: 30:27

When I'm traveling, yes, like, it's like when I, when I'm traveling it's pretty like full on, go go, go, record myself doing this, record the behind the scenes record how I got there, stuff like that. But when I'm at home, not really, it's only when I go out and shoot. I I don't go out and shoot too much anymore in Sydney. When I'm back home I always I'm more like editing the stuff I get when I'm traveling.

Speaker 2: 30:52

Yeah, so you, you know your reels and other kind of shorts, shorts, TikTok videos, essentially BTS, kind of fun BTS, would that be a best way to put it.

Speaker 1: 31:06

Yeah, bts and tutorials, and sometimes like a slideshow maybe of like different themes, like oh, here are all my red photos. Or like here are all my photos of public transport in the world, around the world. You know that kind of stuff yeah.

Speaker 2: 31:32

Hi everyone. Before I let you continue with the podcast, just indulge me for a few minutes. I want to briefly talk to you about my new brand, yore. Founded with my business partner and photographic artist, finn Mattson, we are proud to bring you a new artisanal jewelry and specialty coffee brand, yep. What on earth do they have to do with anything? Well, they're both our passions and they've always been another artistic outlet for me, now for over a decade. For those that know me, coffee and jewelry have been my other obsession since I was young, and I am a qualified SCA coffee specialist. So when I met Finn, some of you might have listened to my podcast with him. When we barely knew each other, our love for art and jewelry had a home, and that home is Yore.

Speaker 2: 32:17

Yore is about the art of intent for everything that we do. Our intention with the label was to add a touch of celestial elegance and artistic expression to our visual narratives. Every piece is a statement, a reflection of your unique story and purpose. It's not just jewelry, it's a wearable piece of art that speaks volumes. Picture this silver or gold adorned with an actual piece of lunar meteorite, making every piece as unique as the moments we usually capture through our lenses. From limited edition lunar jewelry pieces to finely crafted 925 sterling, silver and gold rings, pendants and chains there's something for all of you in each of our unique designs.

Speaker 2: 32:59

We're also committed to the environment as much as possible. Our coffee in our barley showroom is direct trade, organically produced and locally farmed, minimizing impact on the environment as much as possible. Our packaging is all sustainable and our jewelry recycled other than the moonrock, of course Proudly eco-friendly. In both packaging and jewelry production. You can feel good about looking good. And to top it off, we offer worldwide shipping, ensuring that a piece of lunar beauty can grace your collection no matter where life takes you.

Speaker 2: 33:31

And if you ever find yourself in barley, please come and visit our house of Yore. Our cafe and community-driven art house is a haven for creatives just like you. And before we head back into the podcast, please just take a moment to explore Yore's collection. As a special treat for you, my wonderful audience, ure is offering an exclusive discount. So head over to our website and use the code in the description for a 10% discount of your jewelry purchase. The link in details are all in the description. So thanks so much for listening and I'll let you get back to the podcast now. And you told me you used to have a podcast. What was that about?

Speaker 1: 34:15

Yeah, so a friend of mine, ichban, is another photographer that I met through. Yeah, so we both live in Sydney. We met through Instagram, became like really good friends through Instagram and we started a podcast a few years ago I think it was just before the pandemic called the 529 podcast. So it's three numbers, 529. But it's essentially a play on opposite of a 925. So it's like a passion project. So it's like, yeah, so we call it 529. I thought it was a clever name. And then we basically talk about an interview guest who have maybe not had a 925, but like who turn their passion into their career, and so we did about maybe 15 to 20 episodes and the editing process and the amount of coordination and stuff was was quite full on, so we couldn't really continue it, but we're actually at the moment in talks of redoing it and starting it up again very soon hopefully.

Speaker 2: 35:30

Cool. Yeah, it's a lot of work, but you've got to really really love it. Tell me a little bit about the business side of getting jobs. A lot of people that watch and listen to the podcast are interested in maybe how to begin. Maybe they can. They're good at photography, don't really know how to enter there they're getting paid for it arena. With you now having where you're at now, it's easier to see how you might get those jobs, having more experience, having worked for people before having a big social media following. But rewind maybe a few years pre pandemic. How did you go about getting jobs then? Was it more of a hustle? Did you focus a lot on social media? Was there a lot of pitch emails going out? Or even back then, were you getting requests from brands and companies and stuff like that?

Speaker 1: 36:26

Funnily enough, I've never sent a pitch email before. I've never reached out to any brands before, actually. So it's pretty surreal to have started a career based on just waiting for emails. But I was working in architecture at the time, so I already had a job, so I was working full time, I was earning a full time income, so I was able to, I guess, pick and choose the clients I kind of wanted to work with.

Speaker 1: 37:00

So, like sometimes if it's like super cool, something super cool, I would just take up a bit of leave day from my work and be like hey, I got to go do this shoot for this brand, but my whole background is basically just posting on social media, keep posting in social media and grow, grow, grow and then wait until a brand reaches out. I didn't know this was going to happen. I started my Instagram as a hobby, as something for fun. I enjoy taking photos on the weekends or after work. Then I would go home and edit them and then I post them. I used to post every single day and I think I post it every day for a good seven years or something. I just nonstop would be posting every single day.

Speaker 1: 37:47

So maybe, like from there and from the growth of my account, brands started to reach out. The first brand that reached out to me was actually Addidas, which is one of the bigger brands that you'd probably know. They were like hey, we have the pair of NMD shoes, we can gift it to you for free if you give us three posts. And I was so excited I was like yes, let's do it. That's amazing. At the time I didn't know I should be charging money or whatnot.

Speaker 2: 38:18

I was like yeah, I'll take it, and they never worked with you again.

Speaker 1: 38:24

I love sneakers, right, and I actually have a good sneaker collection myself and I was like, oh, this is awesome, it's something I love and I get to get a free pair of shoes. So I did it. And then next thing, you know it kind of snowballs, and like, a few months later, nike reached out, a few months later, new Balance reached out, a few months later, puma reached out. I just kept going from there and I was like this is crazy, like, and then over time, I obviously learned to charge, like I mean, like I can't just get a free pair of shoes anymore.

Speaker 1: 38:56

So you learn a bit. You chat with your friends who also getting similar deals, like, oh, how much are you charging? And then we kind of like learn you know to to have how can I turn this into a business? And then, yeah, go from there. But I think it's because I had this kind of architecture base to fall on and to fall back on. And like I didn't, I wasn't afraid to be like asking for more money, maybe because it's like if I don't get it, I'm okay with. I still have this, I still have income from architecture, and so I guess that's how I learned like our brands are willing to pay this amount, or brands are willing to pay that amount, just to test the waters of it. But yeah, it's, it's worked out and I just kind of keep going.

Speaker 2: 39:40

Yeah, unbelievable. You're the first photographer I've ever spoken to that's never sent a pitch email. I can only just say Well done, like congratulations. That's incredible and totally deserved, obviously. So, you know, I like to think most of that is just your art speaking for itself. Yeah, you had another job that you could rely on, but you still got people and brands huge brands reaching out right. That's, that's no mean feat. So what was the success factor? What was that thing that made people notice you, that made people reach out? Because you know there are people that may have hundreds of thousands of followers but still clients may not reach out to them because it's maybe they don't like their work is not good enough or it's just not fitting what they need, right. So what do you think it is about you, your work, that kind of A makes people follow you but B makes it attractive to brands.

Speaker 1: 40:41

I think it's more about like showing your passion and show and showing and going all on it. So, for example, if you love to, if you love sneakers, for example, like before I got this added us, before I had to reach out to me, I was shooting my own sneakers. For a little bit I was like, oh, this is a cool angle of my own sneakers. So I would, when I'm traveling, I would do a few sneakers shots just for fun, because I enjoyed them, and then I guess from there I would post them to social media and then somehow I don't know how but brands would see it and then they were oh cool, can you do that with with our shoes?

Speaker 1: 41:15

And then it's always really weird, like I would travel to Japan and then I would take photos of Japan in my own way and then, like a year later, Japan tourism reaches out and is like, hey, can you come to Japan and take photos to promote our country? So it's like things always kind of like if you put effort, time and effort into your own passion and into your own like what you really love to do, usually like hopefully, if they're good, if they're good work, they would come back and like reach out to you, but I mean, maybe I've been lucky, I don't know, it's just yeah, it's just worth that.

Speaker 2: 41:59

Good for you. That's amazing, what. Speaking of social media, I mean it sounds like you got most of your jobs through having a social media following. Now the landscape is so different, and what kind of pieces of advice can you give to, you know, people with a few thousand followers, starting out in photography, wanting to grow that, how, how, how would you go about kind of advising them?

Speaker 1: 42:21

I think it's always for social media. It's about being active and being consistent. So by active I mean not just posting, like creating communities, meet, meet other photographers, comment on other photographers that you like their work of, and like that kind of stuff. So it's like, it's a social, it's a social platform, right? So it's not just a sharing platform where you just share your own photos and then not and not touch it. I'm still, I'm still commenting on a lot of photos. I'm still liking everyone's content. You know that kind of stuff it's. It's it's more making friends, like and genuinely comments.

Speaker 2: 43:00

I haven't seen any comments or likes from you, dennis, on my photos. Yeah, no, you're I. Yeah, I agree with you. I would add, maybe one caveat to that is to to not do it for the sake of growing. Do it because you want, you're authentically wanting to connect with people, right? I think that's super important. You know, I see comments on my posts. I know I I can kind of tell. I can't be sure, but I can kind of tell people who are commenting because that's their strategy, not commenting because they want to, like, give me kudos or reach out or just connect with me, right? So I totally agree with you. I just say, like, you know, you've got to want to do it.

Speaker 2: 43:47

And, going back to the original point about just shooting and and and photography, you've, you've. That does come through when people see, you see your work, whether it's on social media, wherever, on a podcast like this. You know you can see people's passion. It really comes through in their work and that's the type of people that brands, companies, clients, anyone, collaborations, that. Those are the type of people that people want to work with and work for. So totally agree with you. Tell me more about something that's extremely important. That's your sneaker collection. What, what is tell me about it? What is in your wardrobe right now in terms of your sneaker collection?

Speaker 1: 44:27

So I guess in the past there's more into, like you know, the more hyped Jordans and Nike's and like Air Max's and stuff like that. But now I'm more into like the comfort shoes, like I really into like my two favorite brands right now. My two favorite brands right now are New Balance and On Running. So I love their shoes, like they're super, super trendy and like they look cool but like they're so comfortable. Because, like I travel a lot and when I'm traveling I'm walking like 25,000, 30,000 steps a day.

Speaker 1: 44:58

So when I'm out like that, like I want to be as comfortable as possible, my legs are hurting, you know, at the end of day, but like if I'm wearing non comfortable shoes, you'll be hurting even more. So I just always I'm looking for like really nice walking shoes now like, but also ones that that look good and and have like everyone's like raving about the ball on running has been so cool Like I. It's just a brand that's come out of nowhere recently Because Roger Federer is back them and the shoes that they make. They're meant to be for running, like performance running and like long distance running, but whenever I travel the shoes have been really clutched.

Speaker 2: 45:41

Interesting. Yeah, I know I hadn't heard of them before, but I guess now everyone's going to check them out. What about you personally? How will you? I don't know if this is important to you, but how do you evolve as a photographer? Is there, you know? Do you just kind of take it day by day, project by project? Are you always consciously trying new things? You've got ideas coming out. Is it a conscious kind of effort to sit down and go right, we're going to write a list of ideas or trips, or projects or subjects I want to shoot with, or do you just kind of let it flow?

Speaker 1: 46:15

It's a bit of both right Like I always like. For me, the base case is always to post at least four to five pieces of content on my Instagram and TikTok a week. So so that's the base case. So being active on there is sort of my, my bread and butter, right Like. I always have to do that. And then if there's a job, I still have to always push four to five pieces of content a week. So whenever there's no job, I always try to bank, bank some stuff up ready to go. So, basically, like when I was traveling I was in Taiwan and Singapore last week, my wife we went for a 10 day trip. I had all the content ready to go, so I didn't.

Speaker 1: 46:55

When I'm, when I'm traveling, I never need to edit. I edit when I'm back home. And then, in terms of, like the future, I just, yeah, take it day by day. It's always been that way because I don't know what's coming next. Right Like, having this like Samsung contracts been great, because then I could really like like Samsung contracts, basically similar to the Lightroom one where I have to post X amount, oh, in a year, you know, like nine posts a year or 12 posts a year YouTube videos, tiktok videos, etc. And then because there's this thing, there's the contract that's there in the background, then like I could really be more free. I guess, in that stuff I post and like I do have ideas and like, but the ideas just come like as I go, like I'm not like planning months in advance. You know, like it's more like oh, in two days I'm going to be posting this thing or like it and then I'll maybe I'll do this one next or whatever. Like it's stuff I've shot when I'm traveling.

Speaker 1: 48:00

But also you have to be on your toes as well to see, like we were talking about before, like what trends are happening on social media. You got to be watching like, oh, this, there's a trend like this, I'm going to try use the footage I got from Taiwan to match it to that trend. So you can't just be like editing now and then posting that whatever you posted in like four months time because it's going to be not on trend anymore. So you're always going to be watching out what the next thing is on social media and sort of. I think that's a good way to go on social media to be watching for that. But obviously you don't want to be like wrap down to trends, right? You don't want to be like oh, I'm the guy that's following all the trends. You want to be able to mold what you do to the trends like you don't want. You want to be like make the trends your own.

Speaker 2: 48:46

Yeah, that's a really important point. I'm glad you added it Because I was going to ask how difficult it is for especially people who want to grow. I mean, we all want to grow, but for someone like yourself who already has such a big following, I guess you're more, you're more concerned about maintaining that level and and growing. You know consistently, consistently if you can the people that are not at your level in terms of of audience. It's very easy to fall into that trap of just following trends and then you end up kind of losing your voice and losing maybe your style as well, losing your identity, kind of. Then you then you know, if that keeps going, you end up just resenting it and then maybe you don't enjoy anymore and it just becomes this pressure that you just this vicious circle of I need to post, I need to follow trends, and then you, before you know it, you wake up, go what the fuck is going on? I don't like this anymore, right?

Speaker 1: 49:48

I mean that's kind of like I think I probably I had to go through that too, right Like I when I was on the come up before, but I was trying to, you know, be, oh, how do I grow, how do I this? And then, like, as soon as I realized like it's not about that anymore, it's about what you want and what you like, I think that's where I kind of grew even more Like you know what I mean, like it might count, grew even more and like you just don't think about it, like it's hard to say, obviously for someone who's really wanting to grow and still very small, but the less you think about growth, the more growth you actually get, I find. I find, and the more you think about you, what you want to do, what you like, what, what you want to show the world rather than what pleasing others, that's that's. I think that's people should like push through it and like get through that tunnel Right To get to the other side 100% and that's how I think my growth has come from as well.

Speaker 2: 50:49

Just not forgetting about growth and it's and it's unrealistic for us to say that right, no one forgets about growth. We all want to be kind of successful in that arena, that part of our photography world, but the more you can be yourself and do, just do what you want to do, there are going to be people that don't like it. In fact, the majority of the world won't even know about it. But there will be your little, tiny little circle who love it and that circle would gradually increase a little bit and little bit and little bit and they will like, going back to what we said before, they will see that you're doing what you love. They'll see that you're being consistent with doing what you love. That will come through and that's an attractive thing for people who want to find new accounts and or come across a new account and go, oh yeah, this guy looks like he's loving it and he's producing great work. I mean kind of thing. So yeah, totally, totally agree.

Speaker 1: 51:44

And the more you grow, the more video goes viral. There's actually like a lot more negative comments that come about. So just like like start off like it's okay not to have viral videos because you got to, you got to like toughen up yourself first Because, like, if I started getting these negative comments at the very beginning, you know it's, it would have been hard. But now like yeah, I kind of already desensitized to it. I don't really it's, you know, it's fine.

Speaker 2: 52:14

What's your favorite, worst comment?

Speaker 1: 52:18

Oh, I don't know, there's just people just a lot of say, oh, this is fake, this is not photography, that kind of stuff Like they. And then, yeah, it's just like things saying, people saying that what I do is not photography is probably the the thing that comes out the most and like the thing that shines the most in my comment section. But yeah, it's funny because, like then people start to argue in your comments it's like, oh man, like it's too much.

Speaker 2: 52:49

Why do they, why do you think they say that?

Speaker 1: 52:54

I don't know, maybe they just like they don't really know about a lot of stuff that happens in photography, they're, they've only known one certain way of photography, like I don't know, like ignorance, I guess. Maybe yeah.

Speaker 2: 53:12

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 53:14

Yeah Well, but it's also very strange to to just like randomly comment on someone else's post where you don't know them, and it's like a complete stranger, and then you just start bashing them.

Speaker 2: 53:26

It's like it's you don't know where you come from.

Speaker 1: 53:29

You don't know my background, you don't know why I do something, you don't know the whole idea behind this piece or this, why I edited a certain way. You know stuff like that. I think I got them quite a bit more when I first started, because it's like this what is this? Like? I'm kind of shaking up the photography space because when I first started like it's like, well, what is this random flipped city of Osaka and stuff like that. And then like people like like, is this really photography?

Speaker 1: 53:58

Started, people started to question it a bit more and then I kept doing it. Like I just kept because I like doing it. So so I think it got more accepted over time. And then now when there's reels and stuff, more people are seeing your work. And then there's more. It was kind of like really nice for a period of time before reels came because, like everyone that follows me knew what I was, I was all about. But now when reels and tiktok came, there's a lot more audience to see it. But it's good and bad in a way. Right, because you get more people seeing your work. But then there's also that little group will. That will always be like negatively commenting. There's a guy. There was a guy that followed me and it's commenting negative comments on every person and I'm like why are you following me? Why you following?

Speaker 2: 54:43

me. I feel like it's people who, who don't necessarily have a voice in the real world and they just want to. They feel like it's open game, right, because they're their defenses. Well, you, you put the post up on a public space, right, I can do whatever I'd like. Well, yes, but you wouldn't go around walking on the street just shouting obscenities at every person you see or judging them for what you know. Okay, some people might have those thoughts all the time, but it's just weird.

Speaker 2: 55:15

I find it so strange that people, these social kind of social media keyboard warriors who just sit and they find pleasure in trying to bring people down, and actually successfully, with a lot of people, you know, you hear about some horror stories with suicides and depression, certainly in the younger generation, but I don't know, I just don't get it, never will. People obviously don't have anything better to do with their lives and what I enjoy seeing now is that those people and I don't know how evolved you get with those negative comments, but I do like seeing people just having these one line of comebacks. George, actually I saw one of his another day and just I just pissed myself. I think he put something on about he put a Christmas Day post on, I think, about a Hindu ceremony and someone commented inappropriate or irrelevant. You know, posting something, posting a Christmas Day post wishing everyone happy Christmas, but then you know the subject is a ceremony.

Speaker 2: 56:19

It's like I mean. I mean the caption wasn't didn't have anything to do with the religion versus the day of the religion, of the day that we're celebrating, nothing to do with that. But someone felt like they wanted to impose either their superficial knowledge about something and George just wrote back going. Sue me, you know. It's like why I just don't get it. It's just so funny. I like people who kind of? Tease them a bit more like fuel the fire and make them get even more angry. I love it.

Speaker 1: 56:56

There was a video posted like last week where it's literally just like if you see a puddle on the ground, you know, look into it and like, chew the reflection right, like it's cool. And then obviously it's a very common photography technique and like a lot of people have made videos about it. But then there's this one guy that's like this is so boring, how unoriginal can you be. But then in my head I wrote back to him and I was like but there's so many beginners out there who hope, who will just have seen this for the first time. And like, why are we like gatekeeping photography techniques just because people have seen it a thousand times?

Speaker 1: 57:38

Because this guy's seen it a thousand times, someone else might have seen it for the first time. It could be a kid, right. So like, why am I like my techniques? They don't have to be the most advanced, it could be the easiest, so it doesn't really matter what you do Like. But this guy's just like so angry because what I'm making is too basic and to like it's just like. It's so strange, like I'm actually trying to help people.

Speaker 2: 58:02

Yeah, he's angry at himself. Nothing else there's. There's a ironically, you know, doing a video about a mirrored.

Speaker 2: 58:12

A mirrored subject is probably just a mirror holding himself holding a mirror up against himself, you know, getting getting all fuddy duddy with his opinions, baseless opinions. But yeah, I mean, on the flip side of that, there is almost an incumbency upon us to keep photography moving forward and to keep breaking the barriers and keep you know such as yourself. When you enter the photography space, you kind of flipped it on its head with a lot of your techniques and styles, right. So there is this balance and it depends on the intent of which you're posting, the intent of which you're sharing. Are you trying to educate beginners out there? Are you posting this for a specific reason? Hey look, if you haven't thought about this before, try it, it's really fun.

Speaker 2: 58:59

You can get some fucking cool images and arguably some of the most repeatable and basic techniques bring out. If they're done masterfully, you can get some of the best photos in the world, and some of the best photographers in the world have done that, especially like portraiture. You know there's some of the most simple techniques in the world portraiture. But if you know how to express a certain feeling or whatever, you know, the depth of a photo doesn't matter about the fucking basic level of technique, right? So again, it comes back to what you're doing, it for the intent, who you're exposing it to, etc. Etc. So you know, these are the nuances we have to understand.

Speaker 1: 59:38

It's also up to the audience and up to the people who want to try that technique to. How can you push that one technique to another level? Like I'm just giving you a little thing, how do you take this thing and like make it yours right? Like you don't have to just copy everything that you see on social media. You have to elevate it and make it better and that's how everyone improves. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:00:00

Interesting. Do you feel like you're a content creator or a photographer?

Speaker 1: 1:00:09

I would say I am a photographer, but recently maybe, with all the video stuff coming up, it's probably more content creator, because I'm like showing the behind the scenes and showing the tips and tricks, showing all that stuff. So I guess that's more content creation. But yeah, maybe my brain now has more switched to content creation mode than like photographer mode, because it's like why is this photo interesting? So you got to like why should I make a video about this and what's the reason behind? I'm always thinking about that, so like, so maybe that is the content creation creator side of me coming out. But yeah, like it's always about showing, like if I make a reel or if I make a TikTok, there's always got to be a point to it. But like I also like why am I making this video if there's no point to it? So it's always like thinking about am I going to teach someone something? Am I going to show the behind the scenes of a process? Am I going to like what am I doing with this video?

Speaker 2: 1:01:12

I get it and I'm the same, Like I apologize for, I guess, just random arbitrary labels, but like photography, content creation, you can be somewhere in the middle and there's already nuance. But you know everyone's photography brain who's on social media. You know I'm trying to kind of dabble with reels and try to grow. Most photography brain has changed a little bit, right, Because instead of just taking a photo and just just Enjoy that as a, as the process or the end result, and both it's like now you and me it's. I think we're similar in terms of kind of the videos we create, in terms of educational or BTS, like every photo you're taking now is like, okay, how can I make a video about this, Right? Or how can I? How can I share this in a different way? How can I kind of capture the BTS? Or fuck, I need someone else to tell the. You know it's just a completely different concept, right, but it's fun, Like I really enjoy it. It's just, it's just more work and it's just a completely different way of thinking. I just always try and get Be trying to be sure that it doesn't detract from the photography side of it, right, Cool, Cool, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:02:26

Speak to me a little bit about your creativity process. You talked about it early. In terms of most of the time, just the kind of things come to you. Is there anything you do that helps with creativity? Because I know me included there are some periods and some seasons in my life Like my creativity is. Is it's really difficult to be creative right now in my headspace or other stuff going on, and then other times like just flow state after flow state. Is there anything that you do deliberately that helps with your, your process and your creativity, or do you just kind of leave it to that organic process? I guess?

Speaker 1: 1:03:02

I think stepping away is always a good thing, like having breaks, and for me, I watch and play a lot of sports on the side, so like when I'm playing, I play basketball, I play tennis and I play futsal.

Speaker 1: 1:03:21

So play a lot of sports during the week Futsal, indoor soccer, indoor football oh, okay, okay, okay, yeah. And when I'm like, let's say, playing tennis, I'm focusing on how to hit this ball right. So my brain's not thinking about work, my brain's not thinking about being creative. It's just like I think the switching off process is so important because then, when you're back home and you're editing, it's like, oh, I'm switching it back on, it's like a refresh. I think that's always been a good thing, and not like having lots of breaks is actually a very good thing when it comes to being creative Great shout to me yeah, we just started playing paddle here in Bali, which is kind of a trendy thing.

Speaker 2: 1:04:03

I say just started. I've played once and but love it. I love it. A bit like you, I grew up with sports, always played sports and did miss it a little bit when we moved to Bali. It's just so hot here as well, so it just doesn't make me kind of want to do it, but definitely having a complete break. Yeah, which is.

Speaker 2: 1:04:30

I was going to say it's so important just to be with a couple of friends and all you're thinking about, like you said, is having a laugh, hitting a ball nothing to do with photography or content creation or growing and social media and jobs and all that kind of stuff and it just, like you said, just separates. I think that's a really good shout and something that people need to remember, because burnout is only around the corner Once you really get in that groove, in that flow, accepting job after job and posting and this and that or the pressure that you put yourself under to grow as a photographer, filmmaker, visual artist, content creator, whatever you want to call yourself. It's very easy, isn't it, to get into that whole.

Speaker 1: 1:05:15

I think also like sport is a very strategic thing, so like indirectly it helps with your strategic thinking. Like it's like how do I beat this person in tennis or how do I beat this other team in basketball? So you have to find ways to do it, and so like you're constantly problem solving, but a different, completely different problem. And so for me it's always been like like yeah, like when I play basketball and play soccer, it's I like to be the facilitator kind of thing, like I'm more of a passing person trying to get my teammates open and like getting them an easy shot and stuff like that. So that I think indirectly helps with like creative thinking and also business thinking as well. Like you know, what can I do in my passion that will lead to jobs like that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:06:11

What can I do in my passion that will lead to jobs? Love it.

Speaker 1: 1:06:14

Like what can I do in my photography passion? That like, what sort of videos do I need to be making to be able to land jobs with people in the future? And that's sort of the questions I think about when I'm when I'm making videos.

Speaker 2: 1:06:27

Cool. Look, I could talk to you for hours. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for joining. I'm going to leave you with a question on this podcast. We copied another trend from a much bigger podcast, but we get our guests to write a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're on. So once we're off air, I'll ask you to write a question. But I've got a question for you from Laura BC, who is our previous guest last week. Her question was and I think we've covered this a little bit already but her question was what's the next step you want to take to keep evolving in your creative career?

Speaker 1: 1:07:08

I think it's to never be stagnant, like never think you know everything, and so always be learning and always be continuously pushing yourself. And, yeah, never think you know everything. I think that's my always like my, always meant my mentality all the time. So, like you think you know Instagram, you don't. You think you know social media, there's so much more to learn. Like I've been in this space for like 12 years and I feel like I've just been scratching a little bit below, you know there's people doing so much more than me, and so it's always having the like, the the want to learn more, I think, is always the mentality that you need to have and move forward and to grow. I love it.

Speaker 2: 1:07:52

Humility and education, right, so that, that, yeah, what a wonderful combination. Well, it certainly comes across, having spoken to you, how humble you are and it, you know, must be difficult, because you are an incredible photographer, incredible artist and you know kind of, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:08:09

Congratulations on the success you've had with that and I wish you the very best of luck and huge success moving forward. I can't wait to have you on the show again, hopefully in person. So next time you're in Bali, please give me a shout. Hopefully I'm here as well and we can. We can sit down over the table and chat some more, but until then, thank you so much and thank you for having me. I hope you speak again soon. Thank you, thank you. Yeah, thank you.