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Say hello via text message and join in the conversation!
Thank you for listening and for being a part of this incredible community. You can also watch this episode on my YouTube channel (link below) where I also share insights, photography tips and behind-the-scenes content on my channel as well as my social media, so make sure to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and TikTok or check out my website for my complete portfolio of work.
yoreh.
www.yoreh.co
discount code: moodpdcst.23
My FREE eBook:
www.form.jotform.com/240303428580046
My FREE Lighting Tutorial:
www.mattjacobphotography.com/free-tutorial-sign-up
YouTube:
www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay
Website:
www.mattjacobphotography.com
Socials:
IG @mattyj_ay | X @mattyj_ay | YouTube @mattyj_ay | TikTok @mattyj_ay
Click, click. Do you think you need to have as a photographer or an artist? Do you think you need to have some level of trauma in?
Speaker 2:your life. So my mom died when I was 14. Is it okay that I kind of want?
Speaker 1:people to suffer. Has it meant for photography the digital age?
Speaker 2:I'll shoot film, film, film and I'll take up. With the digital Is photography over, but what is real? You would see photographers edit their photos more and more. I knew that they didn't look like that and I was like this is weird, you know, like isn't someone going to raise their hand up and go? This could be really bad.
Speaker 1:It was the beginning of the end. I mean, it's ruined so many people's lives, especially the younger generation, with you know, I want to look like that. How do your shoots generally work? Be a little strict with the assistant.
Speaker 2:I was pretending to be a photographer. I was pretending to be a different person To fit in with what the world was expecting to see. Things have to change or I'm going to die.
Speaker 1:What does the term progressive mean to you in the realm of photography?
Speaker 2:Progressive. Ok, so I think.
Speaker 1:Stephen Buckus is a portrait and fashion photographer who's been with the camera in hand since his teens. Through a turbulent and traumatic teenage experience, he gravitated towards the camera to express his vision, his struggles and his emotions. The lens was his outlet and has since worked with some of the biggest brands and magazines the world has to offer. Sitting with me, it was clear to see this man as a true artist and one that strives to be integral to the art form, without compromise or commercial buckle. Having been through his own regeneration in recent years, stephen now sets his sights on his form of giving back and seeking happiness and satisfaction for others before himself.
Speaker 1:It's easy to get caught up in the rat race of being photographer, artist or any vocation. The constant balance of bills against bona fide seems to be endless the desire to remain integral to one's own voice, but also to work for others and their vision in order just to live Stephen. It was fascinating to hear how he reconciled these, and his story of the last two decades with camera in hand is certainly something to behold. We talk to all things regeneration, we talk styles, lines that you shouldn't cross, responsibilities as an artist, evolution and progression, and much more. So here he is, stephen Bukkis.
Speaker 2:Where are you from? Well, yeah, right, it's kind of a question I get asked a lot because it is. I grew up literally all over the place. I started out been born in Norway, and then we moved to South Korea and I spent a long time in South Korea. Then we moved on to Nigeria and then spent a little time in Nigeria, then back to Norway and then, basically at the right page, at 16, 17, I moved to France, basically so, and then from there it's been everywhere. I've been traveling back and forth through the States, through Europe, and then spending a long time in Asia Southeast Asia predominantly and then ending up here in Bali.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, travels in your blood. Then clearly, absolutely, I think. I mean, I don't know how that happened. I think I was kind of looking at my dad a lot when I was younger, seeing him travel, and my kind of obviously worst memories and fondest memories was of him leaving and then coming back because of the toys he was bringing back. But no, it was like this I was looking at him as this person that had to have an interesting life. I was always so curious of what he like when he vanished out the door or like I was thinking all these crazy adventures or something, and I was like playing this sort of feel in my head of him traveling around the world, and that became an interest very early on.
Speaker 2:I wanted to do the same. So I think, yeah, right from there, for me it was like really just incorporated inside my blood and that's what I wanted to do and I feel most alive when I do travel. I think everyone should travel a lot and whatever you know, with, whatever means you have if it's a car or if it's train or if it's flying get out there and sort of visit different cultures, see different people, meet different people, get into different situations sometimes really bad, sometimes really good. But that's where for me at least, that's where the background of my interests of meeting people and shooting and creating art or whatever it is, it's because I'm out there meeting new people, meeting new cultures. That's it's kind of the meaning for me, you know.
Speaker 1:So yeah, how did travel then shape your art and your photography and creativity, or did it at all, do you think?
Speaker 2:I think it did in a way where I had to sort of be more open and to actually communicate with people, to actually, you know when, sometimes when I was traveling, like obviously we didn't know the language so you would kind of have to, in a way, just use your hands or the emotions or the laughter or a shocking face or whatever it was. And in that way I started learning very early on how to adapt to communication skills like how do I, how do I communicate with someone using eye contact or something that had to do with the physical aspect of it, not just language, right, and that in a way started very early on. But then I kind of gradually understood facial expression, I kind of understood body language way more. So when I actually started shooting people properly, documenting them properly, because in the beginning it was all for fun, I didn't really understand what I was doing. I just love that I was capturing something, you know, and then that that kind of magic of it.
Speaker 2:But then I started tuning into I remember all this this, this way, what, like okay, is he looking that way? That means that, or is he, is he or she resting her shoulders a bit, or something. And then I could kind of tune into that more, you know. And then then that translated into me becoming a portrait photographer and I was in love with that then, because then I was like, hey, I know something here, you know, like I can make them look a little bit different than other people can, and and it started from there. And then from there on it was like full blast mode on, like this is something I want to do. And I was just every time I'd I'd shoot someone, I'd look at that and I go hold this shit, this is crazy, this is so fucking cool, you know, and I wanted to just be that and do that all the time, but yeah, yeah, I feel like you're analyzing my body language right now.
Speaker 2:I am For sure, back in the day.
Speaker 1:So when you first started, you've been doing this for a while right you started at a relatively I would say a young age for photographers in general. Back then and we were talking off air, you know, remember the time when we didn't have smartphones- and digital cameras weren't really a thing, and back when you started, digital cameras weren't around or weren't quite in the mainstream yet.
Speaker 2:Not at all. I mean, I remember we were invited because I was working for a portrait photographer in Norway at the time. That was my mentor, elpe Lawrence. Shout out to him wherever he's in the world right now. I've spoken to him in a long, long time and he was kind of a man for portrait photography in Norway at that time and he would shoot everything on medium formats and full formats and stuff.
Speaker 1:Love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so my job was basically yeah, I remember he was. So the thing with Elpe he was an old army guy. He'd been in the army for like 15 years and he was like a sergeant and he'd started to shoot in the army as well and he took pictures and that's how he kind of fell in love with photography. So when he was done doing that, he had adapted the skills of being very strict and very kind, of like everything needs to be in boxes and order and, like you know, we have call use and it's like 10 in the van and two in the car and like.
Speaker 2:Well, when I started out as an assistant to that, I had no clue that that was about. Like photography was like that, you know, because in my mind we were, like you know, our two little Canon, you know, like 35 mil cameras and just like travel the world with. Like you know, I pictured a photographer quite different, but it was basically me carrying 500 tons of gear and opened down staircases because he had to be on the 10th floor Right and I had names for all the you know the equipment and I had Satan to Satan, three like because it was so difficult and heavy to carry these equipments back in the day because there were no like there were. There were like heavy tripods and shit like that and he wouldn't do anything Like he literally would just like point and say out there and so I mean, I thought, doing that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no for sure, like I, I think it's an important thing to do actually, like be a little strict with the assistants and like let them, let them feel like they're actually doing some work, you know, not just standing around getting a cup of coffee or things like that.
Speaker 2:So the the flow would also incorporate me having to be extremely fast on loading film and learning how to use film cameras properly, because he wouldn't, you know, on the, on the we were shooting someone, he would have like three different types of film, let's say a black and white one and two different color profiles, and then he would just shoot those 10 or 12 super fast and then, if I wasn't ready loaded, oh my God, like he would. He would fucking flip out. So in in, in true army style, like things were lined up and we were on the battlefield, you know, and there was, you know, and it was just film, you know load, and then I would just do, do, do, do, do, and he was like it was kind of like that being in the trenches actually, you know, like he was shooting this, and I remember looking at him when we were doing this and I was like I want to be like that, you know like holy shit, that's cool.
Speaker 1:And are you like that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I mean, there's a part of me that's like that.
Speaker 2:I'm very I. People have said to me several times, especially models and and clients and stuff like that, if they're on this onset they're like you're such a sweetheart but like you're very strict too, and I know that, coming from also being a chef and worked in the trenches and really, you know, adapted that kind of mindset where I have to I don't know be, be, be kind of serious about my job. I feel like sometimes when I'll watch like some BTS stuff or some sort of photographer out there, I cringe a little on the happiness, on the hey we're on this shoot and like la la la. And I know I just spoke about this the other day to a colleague of mine and I and I don't mean to be, you know, I'm not a grumpy old man let's say you know, like, please have fun with it, but it is my job and I'm very serious about my job and I want the people that are there investing in me to feel like that investment is going somewhere. It's not just for fun.
Speaker 1:And when you say investment in you, do you mean clients?
Speaker 2:Yeah, clients or even time. You know, like if, if I'm doing a project with someone, that there's time usage here and I kind of want to get to be someone that has done an over, over delivered in a way, you know, over exceeding something, because I'm very focused and serious about what I'm doing, but that doesn't mean that it's not like fun. I mean I hope there's some fun on set with me. You know, like I'm no, but I'm, I can laugh and have fun, but I'm very kind of okay. Now we go over there and we do that Stop the phone stuff, you know, and stop the BTS stuff, and now we focus. And a lot of people don't know that and understand that with me that I can be a little bit like that.
Speaker 2:So some models will be a little intimidated and be like but then I have a smile and then my eyes are there to communicate that I'm totally sane. I'm not doing this for some pleasure thing, I'm just needing to get that image perfect.
Speaker 2:And yeah, but circling back to LP, and that's that kind of world it was. Yeah, it was, like you know, learning, learning how to use those cameras in that way, and it just made me feel like that's the part, like that's the part of photography that I will always keep with me and that's why I've stayed analog pretty much 90% of my entire career. I just never moved on to digital phase. So then when that digital camera came to market that first Canon camera, I remember we were all invited to this room and LP was there and he invited me to come and I was like only one of the few assistant that was allowed, because there was only these like pro pro photographers that were allowed to see this viewing on this new digital camera that came out. It was one megapixel and it was such a funny thing and I was just looking at this and I went holy fuck, what is that Like really?
Speaker 2:And then and then already there the discussions were like what is this going to mean for the future of photography? You know, like I remember they talking about that at that time I didn't know, no, too too much, because I was still very young and I wasn't really working in the industry properly. So I was just mesmerized by the thing and I thought, if you have that, you're going to rule the world. You know like you're going to be if you can only get your hands on that camera. It was really expensive at the time but some people did buy it and started playing around with it and I just I just felt like it was something out of out of this world in a way. It was really really weird.
Speaker 1:So back then, when you were thinking, probably like a lot of us have done with AI now, what it was going to mean for photography. Now, looking back, what do you think it did mean for photography? What has it meant for photography?
Speaker 2:in the digital age.
Speaker 2:Right, cut this out. I think what happened was people saw opportunity and they lost a little bit of that contact, of being in the trenches, being like thinking fast and properly about light and about emotion and about the setting and what is the energy in the room. Now you can just literally at that time people were thinking, holy shit, this can save a lot of money, time and now we can really like, instead of shooting three styles, we can go from three to 20 styles, let's say in the fashion industry, or if we don't like something we can just delete it and do it again. And the sort of tension that was in the room when we were shooting with film or shooting with something that was organic. It went digital Like.
Speaker 2:It became a part of that robotic kind of sense in a way which I never liked. So when I finally got my hands on a digital camera, I just like never used it. I think it was like a Nikon or something and it was like I just couldn't communicate with it. And when I was at set two and I was shooting with it, I was just like it was kind of the opposite of what people do. Now. They have a digital camera and it'll have a film camera on the side and they'll shoot a lot of digital and then they take up the film and it'll be like click, click, like a couple, and they're like, oh, no, no, no, I'm gonna do digital, cause I'm so scared, like what if that shot didn't go through right?
Speaker 1:I'm the opposite.
Speaker 2:I'll shoot, film, film, film and I'll take up with the digital and I'll be like ah fuck it. You know I'll go back to the film.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's whatever you're comfortable with, or what you've been brought up with, or whatever you feel is. I mean, more importantly, whatever you feel is the best format for your voice right, absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 2:It just happened to be that I saw these things happen right in front of me and that was really magical and I want so. For me, it's always been important for my assistants or the people that work around me that they get that experience as well and see that magic happen. In a way. There were like questions are asked where it's like did you really get that? Like did you see that? And la la la, like how can you be sure you know? And then, talking with the people that work with me or the people I teach, that that is a part of that process. That's exactly why I do it. It's because I get that feeling oh my God, did I get it? I don't know if I got it, but it creates that magic tension that I need to keep pushing and keeping it interesting for me and the model or the subject. It doesn't feel the same when I get to see it right away. It's kind of okay, cool, I got it. There's a confidence there, for sure, but it's not really the same, is it?
Speaker 1:No, it's belief and faith in yourself that you've got that shot, and also a forgiveness where you might say to yourself oh what if I didn't get the shot? I didn't get the shot, even though they're obviously. You know, when there's commercial pressure on it it's a little bit different, but people thrive off that pressure. A lot of times Sounds like you're one of those guys, absolutely yeah. Rewind a little bit to when you first started shooting. So you left home at an early age to France by yourself, yeah, and then is that when your photography kind of story started.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, at the time, so I got into this chef's school in France and at the time so there's a little bit of like a family history there that led me sort of into the idea of needing to secure something rather than just looking at photography as an option or art, like I was thinking more as an artist at the time, as, in, there was some family pressure, yeah, like. So my mom died when I was 14.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And so it was me and my siblings, my two sisters and my dad that wanted to move me to Hong Kong, basically to go to business school or to some form of sort of you know expat school. Yeah, part of me wanted that, because I wanted to be like him, like, oh, I thought I'd please him by doing something that, like, was of importance for him because he could actually do that. You know, like it's kind of a gift for him or gift from him to me that look, look, I made it. Here's a beautiful, amazing experience for you. Go do that. You know. And then I was like, but that kind of don't want to do it. Yeah, you know, but I kind of do. So I would say what happened was that my little sister at the time didn't want to move from Norway. She definitely didn't want to split up for me. My older sister, which is 10 years older than me, basically took responsibility for me and my little sister at the age of 25. And when I was like 15 and the most kind of like I was not a nice 15 year old boy, let me tell you, you know, I was just kind of trying to figure out my ways, I think in the most expressionistic ways you know. And then.
Speaker 2:So what I kind of learned from that was that I knew that I, so I decided to like, okay, if I'm not going to go there, I need to do something that I'm interested in, something that I'm good at. And food was something that I was just good at and I just understood food. I understood taste, smells and just cooking in general. I just had it in my fingers, let's say. And then I kind of for not to let down the family in a way, I decided that that is a good background to have. That's like a good education. I can become a chef, you know.
Speaker 2:And so I went to France and I was supposed to go to the army. That was cause in Norway we all have to do this like thing like a year, right, but I. So what happened was like I went there and I pretended I was like a fucking psychopath. Like I tell them that, like yeah, I smoke weed every day and I really want to shoot a gun, like I would sit there in that thing and I would shoot a gun, and I tell them that. And then, like there were how true was that.
Speaker 2:That was like a not at all. Like I hated guns, like I hated it and I did smoke weed, but I didn't really, I wasn't interested in that at all. Like I wanted to shoot, like I wanted to do, like I worked with photography or like whatever and make food. That was like and play music. Basically, I had no interest in it. I didn't care for the macho thing. You know, I was a very tall, skinny boy that had no real like. All all I had was love. No, but I was like, just, I didn't care for it and I got. Yeah, so I was.
Speaker 2:I was pressured to do something by the school and then they sent me off to France, actually to go to this, the school, to become a chef, where there was there was only, I think they. They took 10 students from around the world and they only had 10 students from France and they all got trained to work in Michelin star restaurants, basically. So it was a pretty big deal to go there and little did I know that me escaping army ended up me going to what I would call an army school, because the first day I got there I was so scared and I was like I had no clue what I was doing there and I barely knew any French I had passed barely, you know and people had wanted to go to the school for forever and try it out. I just kind of lucked myself into it by being like you know, you have to do something anyway, you know. So my school system figured this out. Maybe you threw a loophole, I don't still don't know. If no one knows how they pushed me into this, I don't know it got me into that. Maybe there was some payoffs, but anyways, I got there.
Speaker 2:And then I remember we were all we're living in these like quarters down in a cellar, almost like it really looked like a prison, like I would say it's a very nice prison, but it was like kind of that style. It was like all these big iron green doors that would lead into the dormitory where we would share rooms with two or three other chefs. And I had come pretty late in the evening it was like six, seven or something. I was super hungry and basically they had a little bit of bread, like some baguette, obviously in the mess hall or whatever, and I was eating that dry, like dry bread and I was like feeling what the fuck am I doing here, you know like shit, and yeah, so we go and I get guided down to this place.
Speaker 2:They locked the door and then there's like two kind of like super skinny other boys sitting on the beds and they were just like there and I'm like hey guys, what's up? And they're like hey, like super scared as well. And then right after that I hear this like, and then like, all the lights just goes off. And at nine apparently they just shut off the generator. No lights, and this is true, like and I always want to tell a story I go like I think about that and I was like this is almost like torture.
Speaker 1:You know, like full metal jacket Fuck yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So they did that. I later learned that you know they, in a true French tradition, they scared the living shit out of you, basically to get rid of everything, to build you up to become a very, you know, structurized and disciplined chef. And it was important, and it was five o'clock, lights on, boom, and you had to iron your, your bed, iron your chef's uniform, your chef's hat and all those things, and they would come into all rooms and inspect and if anything was off, they would just mess it up and do it again and then you would be late with your crew. Obviously, I fucked that up all the time, cause, like, I just had a problem with authority and I had a problem with, like people telling me you got to do this, cause like, kind of, in a way, grew up without parents in a traditional sense, right, so that father figure, that discipline I had had to build myself, you know. So when other people was saying that to me, I would just like, uh-uh, Like, and why? What's the point?
Speaker 1:I would ask.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, I would ask questions. Why does it need to be like that? You know, I didn't understand that, but I'm so grateful that I did Cause, like, looking back at that now, it formed a lot of what I now know as having the discipline in my work and then discipline in my life, and I'm using all those things to sort of balance myself when things are rough or when, when I look at something and I don't understand it, I go back to that and I find a way that kind of balances me in that moment. Whatever it is, you know, if it's anxiety or if it's some bad stuff that's happening or whatever, I feel that I can go back to that moment when I didn't understand why I had to iron that creek, like that's why you know.
Speaker 1:So, anyways, yeah, that's where I was Like so you did that, for you became a chef, or you were a chef for a long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 13 years.
Speaker 1:I was working in the industry Photography was kind of kind of grew throughout that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so always as soon as I had a chance, I would shoot. So I had my camera there and I would shoot portraits of the people around. I would walk around the village.
Speaker 1:Do you iron your?
Speaker 2:strap yeah, every day and I would be now. So like, yeah, I'd find a way to be creative in that and I would also obviously shoot some of the food and things like that. But that didn't really interest me too much. It was people that was like on my agenda.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love it. Such, yeah right how. This is an important question for me, because how did you get from kind of traditional portraits not traditional but like of people into fashion portraits, you know, half naked ladies and that specific genre of portraiture? How did that come out? Or was it through just kind of your big break with?
Speaker 2:clients, yeah, I mean. So what happened was with that. It's an interesting thing. You know, I was kind of in a way, interested in documentary. Like I wanted to work with documentary and I was kind of doing that through working with Vice magazine and a magazine called Not a Dog which is Night and Day, which is the equivalent of vice in Scandinavia at the time or in Norway, and that kind of led me into working with artists and you know, different musicians and music in general was like heavily kind of. It was kind of the area I was working in and because I had I was I'm in love with people and how they interact and how they look at things, and like I wanted to document that and so that was an easy thing to be around. But then I got some attention from some German magazines. Zoo magazine called out to do a fashion editorial and I was like what's that? Like how do I do? Like I'm not even like. My fashion sense at the time, or whatever fashion was for me, was like oh, but they reached out to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, from seeing your website, or what was this? Well?
Speaker 2:no from seeing portraiture or photography through vice or through this.
Speaker 2:Yeah so like I've always, like at that time, been in them, like my photos had been in the media a little bit and due to the fact that like I was working for Sony and Universal and things like that, so I had clients actually at the time, but I just didn't know anything about fashion photography and I looked at fashion photographers early on, like Robert Maples Thorpe and Mario Testino, and Jörgen Teller was kind of my. Those were the three that I was like always looking at. So I'd seen fashion photography. I just didn't know how to do that and I was like, do I bring the clothes? It's like I was like, how you know, stylist? I didn't really. So I went down and I shot this in Berlin and you know, there was all these models and there was like this yeah, there was a stylist and a makeup artist and the people and the things were over here in little on. I looked at all these things and I was like, holy fuck, this is fun, this is cool, and maybe I can like, maybe I can use my skill set to like shoot fashion, like more, like a documentary phase, like more, like I did when I was shooting artists or people or whatever I was. So that kind of was what happened. And I did that and I fell in love with how I could shoot in my own way in a way.
Speaker 2:But that was where things took a turn for me, because at the time the digital era had really begun and retouching was on the forefront. So you would see photographers edit their photos more and more. You would see photographers end up in a digital sort of landscape, more than the authenticity of a photo itself. I would see things being retouched and I didn't do that and I had no clue how to do that. So I stayed away from it for as long as possible, and it wasn't until I started shooting for Cosmo or L or whatever other magazines that were fashion-oriented at the time. I just couldn't do that because I just didn't want to retouch my photos in that way.
Speaker 2:So I got kind of, in a way, pushed aside at the age of maybe 24, 25, something like that, when I was on the peak in a way. I had shot a lot of celebrities at the time. I was kind of I just finished, I did a course at a school as well as an art history and things like that as well. So I was kind of getting in there and got some clients and stuff and then suddenly things just kind of got on hold and my pictures weren't as, let's say, as beautiful as all these other photographers that were dabbling with the retouching skills.
Speaker 2:I just I hated it. To be honest. I really didn't like it because I felt like it wasn't real. I felt like I knew a lot of these models, these young models, at the time, and I could see the difference. I knew that they didn't look like that and I was like this is weird. Isn't someone going to raise their hand up and go? This could be really bad in the long run. This could be really not good for the people that are involved in this.
Speaker 2:And I even went on the radio show at the time because I'd done some stuff. I had delivered a set of pictures for a spread for the magazine in Norway, and one of the main picture the starting picture of that series, was me with the film role in my ass, dragging the role of film out, and I'd do a self portrait of myself in the sense of Robert Maples Thorpe, with the whip in his ass, and I would say cause. I thought I was so smart at the time. So I was like it's photography over and then people are just pulling their shit out and they're like pulling their film out of their asses at this point. That was my kind of thing and I've sold that picture. Obviously got a little bit of attention and there was a lot of questions arise by that and I wasn't smart enough to really understand what I was doing.
Speaker 2:But I went on a radio show anyways, and I stuck my head out and I said I don't want to retouch my pictures ever. I just don't want to. I mean by retouching, we got to be clear about what I'm talking about here. I'm not talking about color adjustments or basic edits. Yeah, you know like. I'm talking about manipulation. Manipulation photos, removing blemishes. Well not necessarily. You know, when I was working with LP as well, we would go in and dust off things, you know we would go in and take off like if someone had a much like a gigantic sit right in the face.
Speaker 2:Obviously, even with using film, we would hide that in some sort.
Speaker 1:Oh so you mean like bigger? Boobs smaller breasts.
Speaker 2:Yeah or yeah, changing body compositions smoothing out things to a point where things are different.
Speaker 1:If only.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for me. I just I just never related to it, but at the time I actually didn't understand how important this was and what I was actually poking my finger at. You know. Still important today, very important, very important. And that's why I think that I'm I stay true to what I've been doing and I'm really happy for that. I'm really happy that I was one of those people that wanted that change and I wanted it to not go as far as it has gone.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you see it in filters and Instagram and TikToks and things like that.
Speaker 1:That's the beginning of the end. I mean, it's ruined so many people's lives, especially the younger generation with. You know, I want to look like that and why, can't I look like that?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Pression, loads of kind of issues with it. But what is real? You know you talked about, you know you wanted your shots to be real. But even your type of photography isn't real. Right, I mean, the photography is real, but what you're shooting isn't necessarily real, especially if you're using models and stylists, styling them in the way they want to style them. You direct them in the way you want to direct them, getting a look you want to. So none of photography is real. It's the way the artist wants to portray something, right, and that's. You know a lot of arguments about editing and how much you should edit, how much you're not. When you're actually manipulating something and actually structurally change something, I think there is a line there, right, where okay, this is a little bit too much.
Speaker 2:Look at AI now. Yeah 100%.
Speaker 1:You can adjust something with AI or you can create something completely brand new from AI with AI. Where's the what's okay and what isn't okay, and I don't think it's as black and white as that.
Speaker 2:It's very nuanced, absolutely, absolutely. Look at, like video, like film, you know, like as well, like, of course, there's a sense of manipulation, there's a sense of directing and all these things, and I think that's a. I don't think that it goes to the same limit as actually creating what we like. Okay, so let me backtrack that a little. I'm talking more about pleasing a small group of people in an industry that's predominantly doing it for the money, and if it doesn't fit the bill, it's not approved. And we're talking about, like makeup and some form of, you know, selling products, basically, and it's like, okay, you could argue that Coca-Cola, let's say like and happy family, like.
Speaker 2:I've shot for Coca-Cola a couple of times, right, so in many ways, like, of course I'm, I'm, I know I'm a product of commercial photography as well and I've, I've definitely set up scenes that aren't real 100%, but I'm talking about altering people's body and making them feel like they're not worth who they are and looking like. That's something that, for me, crosses the line. You can put a person and put him on the moon digitally fun, cool, all right, we know it's not on the moon, but you know. But it's like if you start fucking around with little girls tits and asses and eyes and ears and shit like that stuff is going to happen in that brain. That's not going to be a good, good outcome, I think there's a responsibility there.
Speaker 2:Is it coming?
Speaker 1:on the artists, on the producers, on the people who are creating this narrative and this look that they're going to push out there, the intent being to sell millions, as many as possible. Right, there's, there's a responsibility there. The the, the West especially seems to go well, fuck that. We just want to make as much money as we want, without any fucking care in the world. Well, look what happens. Right, and I think photographers and filmmakers and any artists that's part of that also have that responsibility. So, yeah, well, good for you for standing up to it at the time, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2:But you know, there's another part of this as well where I do have respect for what I call digital art. I think that you have to sort of make people aware that you're creating art digitally. Then it's a different thing. If the model understands that they're going to be transformed. There is a narrative that says, hey, we're going to transform you because we're like, we're a makeup brand, let's say, and we want this to become like some crazy looking thing. Well, okay, yeah, let's, let's alter you digitally. That's an agreed upon thing, right. Then it's different because I look at some photographers out there that are doing beauty shots, let's say, or beauty photography.
Speaker 2:Of course, predominantly everything of what you see is not real in terms of how the colors are coming out and the facial expressions and eyes and whatever. But it's beautiful to look at. You got to agree Like, oh my God, how did like? That's amazing. But I don't think there's a lot of photography skills set in there, except like kind of capturing something. But generally speaking, it is the digital kind of workload, that that that builds that photo and becomes something new, you know.
Speaker 2:And that's a skill, that's an amazing skill and I'm like, I'm amazed by it. It's just not my style, but I'd love to watch it, you know.
Speaker 1:Absolutely and like, like you said, I think the most important thing there is a and what two important things a intent.
Speaker 1:Like what am I going to do with if I take a photo of a person? What is my intent with that photo and with the outcome of it? Right, but also the managing expectations. Being transparent with what goes into it, like you said, if it's, if it's 90% created by Photoshop, let's say, then say that this is a digital art piece. It's not, maybe not photography piece, or if it is, you call it photography, then at least you provide a little disclaimer with it, depending on how it's used, if it's just for personal use. So didn't they do that?
Speaker 2:I think they think they did campaigns, advertising for this that they had to like especially. I think they did it in Norway once Sorry to interrupt you, I just remembered some billboards and then they had to write down this picture is digital, oh really, yeah, they tried, but there was a campaign and never went through because, like agencies, commercial agencies and clients so forth, they were just, they were just okay, then we don't shoot that, you know. I like to think that people know now there is more.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's one good thing about the digitized world and the way we've becomes much a small, such a smaller globe. Essentially is that people are more educated on that type. Oh, they know that. That's the cover of L is fucking Photoshop. Right, they know that. And as long as you're okay, okay, I know that, but it still looks nice. I'm going to read the magazine. As long as the magazine is not going. This is a real woman. Every part of her is exactly how she is. You can look like this, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I mean, look, look, I'm not going to sit here and like. I know that I, when I shoot now, especially in the last, let's say last, decade, to like the eight, eight, nine years that I've been working with predominantly swimwear shoots I choose models that look a certain way for sure, and there's not too much of my personal interest in how women look like. My own personal interest is kind of a little bit different, of course, but I know what the industry kind of look for and of course are parts of industry, let's say, but, um, and I know there's a lot of healthy, young looking women there and there is some, there is some pressure, of course, like, like I would kind of hear people say now just me saying I don't retouch, and I'd be like, yeah, but then you shoot only perfect women, like they're just always looking so blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, yeah, but I advertise at least for healthy, young looking women. And there is something in there as well for me to say about.
Speaker 2:If it's too skinny or too unhealthy looking, I won't do that either. Or actually actually on the opposite end of that too, I don't. I don't want to advertise for too big women either, let's say, in the plus size genre there's. There's a limit there for me as well, because it's not healthy and I think that people should be aware of this. You know and I'm not scared to say it Like if there's brands coming out and they, yeah, we want obnoxiously fat women on on the, I'm sorry, it's not me, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna advertise for that.
Speaker 1:I think that's coming to an end. I mean, I was reading a report the other week about big, big companies that have actively gone out there to do advertising campaigns for plus sizes and their numbers are so bad they're having to rethink. It's like you know. Come on, let's join the real world. We all, we all, want to be equal, we all want to give everyone opportunities, but 100% that doesn't sell. It just doesn't sell. And as humans we we are at the moment in this time and day we are more attracted to a normal quotation marks or, you know, normal kind of size looking women or man right, yeah, exactly, but I would always promote health, healthy, you know, that's the core of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not necessarily the looks all the time.
Speaker 2:No, not at all. Not at all, absolutely. And I do a lot of private shoots and I do a lot of shoots for clients that don't use models in the same sense that swim models look like or you know those things, and I equally find them beautiful. Like it's not. For me, it's not about that, you know. Like people are just so tuned in on something, honed in on yeah, that's like you only. But no, you know, that's not, it's just a part of it.
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Speaker 1:And if you ever find yourself in barley, please come and visit our house of yore. Our cafe and community driven art house is a haven for creatives just like you. And before we head back into the podcast, please just take a moment to explore your a's collection. As a special treat for you, my wonderful audience, yore is offering an exclusive discount. So head over to our website and use the code in the description for a 10% discount off your jewelry purchase. The link in details are all in the description. So thanks so much for listening, and I'll let you get back to the podcast now. How do your shoots generally work? Is it the client dictates what they want to see, or do they give you a rough outline of okay, here's the swimmer or here are the clothes, here's what I want to shoot and go and make it look amazing?
Speaker 2:Exactly See, I'm. I think that, like, that's probably be one of the hardest journeys for me as a photographer is to actually swallow a lot of that kind of industry shit that's been thrown at me in terms of we like, let's say, a classic syndrome is we love your style and then we want you to shoot, and then here's the mood board, and then there's a mood board from Perienne, there's a mood board from Cameron Hammond. Okay, there's a mood board from you know, and then I look at that and I go you don't want me. Yeah, you want me to shoot like them, because you don't have the money to shoot with that person. And then you think that some some things that I do are similar to it, and now you want to push me to do something I don't really want to do. Now, what happens generally is that there's money involved. I'm a classic guy looking to make a living, you know, and sometimes pressure is there, sometimes it is not like what people might think, sometimes like booked out all the time and la, la, la, and then sometimes there'll be a client coming on board saying we want to shoot like this, and I look at my bank account and I go, fuck, I need to shoot. Am I going to just say no? No, I'm probably going to do it. You know, and despite of like that mood, border, that thing, looking like something different, and what that has done over the last like, let's say, six to seven years or whatever, it has really become a problem in my own self-esteem, my own worth, and I'm now finally breaching out of that and becoming sort of, let's say, maybe I adapted myself into becoming a better photographer, maybe I adapted myself on becoming more relentless when it comes to like not copying style, but I'm certainly, I'm definitely a part of that crew that have done that, you know, up through the years, because of this pressure, like because of that thing where, like I'm not good enough or like I want to look like someone else or whatever, and but what that has done basically is like, probably because I've been in the industry for 24 years that I'm old enough to recognize when I need to like, okay, I need to pull away from this, I need to start looking at different ways of doing this. And so I'm like happily now finding that way and finding my own sort of rhythm again and like being kind of like hard on, like this is how I shoot and this is how I'm going to shoot it, but, lucky for me, it is kind of the style of a lot of the clients that I am working with. So I'm getting work and I'm getting things Out there, but not to say that that ride hasn't been really rough and really like, you know, like what's it called?
Speaker 2:Contradicting and raised so many questions and also anxiety connected to it. Because, like every time, like with the pressure of social media, you post something and you go. Is that going to be recognized as some plague or like some? What's it called that word? Plagiarism, plagiarism, yeah, or to copy it, or whatever, and I'm super like, oh my God, because, like, I don't want to be that person who does that, you know. But it's all okay to be inspired I'm not saying that you shouldn't be inspired and photographers have a general, I think, a general, what's it called?
Speaker 2:I'm stuck on that word, not responsibility, responsibility to inspire, you know, and inspire younger generations or younger photographers.
Speaker 2:So whenever I see someone copying my style or copying an idea I had long ago, or whatever, I'm just flattered by it and I'm gonna go for it.
Speaker 2:And it's always gonna turn out different.
Speaker 2:Anyways, you're never gonna be completely what I did, you know, and that's totally fine.
Speaker 2:But I think in general it's because, coming back to that point where clients are talking to me about what they want to do, they're also saving it.
Speaker 2:They're not really on the forefront on being creative either, because they're just looking at what other brands are doing and they want to do that too. Let's say, a swim brand looks at a swim brand that's been shooting with Cameron Hammond for a while. We want to do that too, because it sells, all right. And now you have that ball rolling and now you're gonna find a photographer that shoots like Cameron Hammond right, but it never really will be like him. You will get something that's like not as good, and then that person that's shooting kind of like him, maybe in my shoes, feeling like I'm not really expressing what I can truly do. You know, you take away that a little. So I feel like it's a responsibility on the brands as well to take a chance on younger and other types of photography and photographers to shoot differently, so we can get a really good like umbrella of creativity out there instead of everyone shooting the same fucking shit. That's, in my opinion, on the brands, not on the photographers, because they're out there waiting. They're out there wanting to do something.
Speaker 1:So many.
Speaker 2:Exactly, give them opportunities.
Speaker 1:I feel like those newbies or beginners in the space and trying to earn a living from photography or even videography, filmmaking, the kind of the creative visual arts battle, with the problem that you just talked about so much I want to pay the bills but I wanna shoot what I wanna shoot. And this kind of this confluence of these really difficult areas to manage. There doesn't seem to be a right answer and everyone's different obviously. How did you get? You just said you kind of got through it and it was a difficult journey full of contradictions and anxiety and self-doubt. Any tools, a couple of tools or anything that you can kind of pinpoint that helped you realize that and reconcile those contradictions?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I think one of those big kind of changes for me was to actually start spending time on self-development, like I would kind of not to bring too much psychology into this or things like that, but I was feeling like there was a part of me that was sort of not me and I was pretending to be a photographer. I was pretending to be a different person to fit in with what the world was expecting to see, right, and I did it for so long that I'd forgotten about who I really was as a photographer and why I started shooting in the first place. Because I was really just doing what everyone else was doing, or at least the top sort of photographers were doing, because I've had a good run, like I've done a few good big brands and I make money and stuff like that. But in the end of the day I would always second guess I was in that field. So I started thinking about it and I was like what do I need to change here? When am I gonna take responsibility to change? Cause I wanted to, I just didn't dare to.
Speaker 2:So that was to start looking inwards and it was like okay, what are the points in my life right now where I'm using the same mechanism as pretending to be someone else or whatever, and that was, for me, mixed in with drinking and drugs and going to events or hanging out with people that I thought was good for me, that it wasn't.
Speaker 2:And then I decided to like maybe I should stop influencing or getting myself influenced by this crowd or this thing, and I did, and that was so transformable for me because I stopped drinking and I stopped sort of, let's say, making myself feel better with addictions in their way, and what that did was suddenly I had the true self in me, like I would see who I really was, cause it wasn't really damped down by all this other stuff and only then I could start looking at like being brave enough to start pushing out stuff that I was really happy about, because that other dimension was keeping me sort of drugged out in a different like metaphorically speaking, drugged out, but I was as well.
Speaker 2:But yeah, and then the more honest I became with myself, the less I was worried about what people were thinking about, whatever I was putting out, or like what I was starting to produce or what I was saying no to, and I'm a firm believer of if you do good in the world and you are honest with yourself thing, the world will make it right for you.
Speaker 2:You know Really does, and that's why I wanna say to people is like believe in that, believe that If you are starting with yourself, that will transcend other people around you and the man or the girl you're meeting in the end of the day is a true person. It's not someone that you have pretended to be and that gives you a lot of, let's say, good feeling about living and good feeling about what you are creating in this world, because we're always creating. We're always creating something. It's not photography. There's food or there's what you know, a painting or some dribble down something, or communication with someone. We're always creating something. So that was one of the biggest transformable kind of things that I've done for myself.
Speaker 1:Love it. I talk about mindful photography all the time. Photography is just the kind of appendix to that phrase. More about the kind of mindfulness, not mindfulness in a kind of hippie spiritual meditate. I mean, it obviously can be about that, making it such a huge, diverse word, but when it comes to photography and art, like you have to be to really like, be happy, make an influence, do what you want to do and be okay with it. Not looking over your shoulder, not looking on Instagram going I would need to be doing that, or looking at other artists going just I'm just going to copy that because I feel like I need to be that type of artist To be able to have that confidence and peace almost in yourself.
Speaker 1:then becomes that belief that it's this is fine.
Speaker 2:Like.
Speaker 1:I'm okay, I'm good at this, this is what I want to do, and if people say they don't like it, then fuck them, it doesn't matter, it really doesn't matter. So I think that's really powerful and I see so many young artists these days. I mean we all battle with it, but I see so many young artists these days going from one thing to the next thing to the next thing to the next, kind of want to do that. I need to do that, I need to be like them and I'll be like them. It's not going to end very well, it's not going to give you happiness, it's not going to give you a body of work that you can say is yours and that you're really happy with. And, furthermore, clients see that Like. If you want to work with clients or you want to work with models, you want to collaborate with big brands, whatever it is, people see that authenticity.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Without even you know, first impressions subconsciously, whatever they see it, and that's why they often want to work with people.
Speaker 2:Exactly exactly.
Speaker 1:Do you think Bali helped you in that journey?
Speaker 2:Yes and no. I think it definitely showed me, first and foremost, an opportunity for me to escape even more in the beginning, you know, let's say, in other words, cheap alcohol and parties all the time, and I was mesmerized by that, even coming from a place where I thought I was like done with that, you know and that, and set six, seven years ago, and I was like, but that just dragged me down the full on rabbit hole thing, you know, and so in that regards, no, but then I needed that. I really needed to go way on the bottom to realize that I didn't. Okay, I need to change now, like things have to change or I'm going to die, like I'm literally killing myself with what I'm doing. And I was sort of thinking that I was okay with all this as well. Right, because I was living again.
Speaker 2:Like coming back to that, I was living this other person's life in a way that I had been so accustomed to doing, because I was kind of prompt into it by being at events and socializing with these people and thinking I want to be like that and I want to do this and I want to be that photographer, you know, things like that, and to become that person, I'd drag this mask on and this suitcase full of shit and I'll be walking my steps, you know, and thinking that, hey, this is not too bad, you know, and then realizing that it is, you know, like it's slowly killing me and it had to like, yeah, it just boom smacked and then I had to step out of it.
Speaker 2:And then Bali was also extremely helpful because of the opportunities we have here, where spiritualism is kind of big, you know, or there's a lot of kindhearted people here with a good, loving soul and wanting to help each other. And I found that in a way also through one of my best friends. I was dealing with addiction and drug abuse and stuff like that as well and finally got out of that and started in his recovery process and finding each other in that again, which is beautiful, and helping each other on that journey, becoming better people, becoming better men, and I am super grateful for him. But I'm also really grateful that I have that community here. You know that I can lean on that a little and use that. So the last years with that in regards it's absolutely helped me for sure.
Speaker 1:Awesome. What is the term? I mean, I think we've kind of answered it already, but what does the term progressive mean to you in the realm of photography specifically?
Speaker 2:So I think I've been like someone quoted that I was that like I was a very progressive, like one of the more like progressive Scandinavian photographers.
Speaker 2:I've used that actually in Dubai a couple of times and then I was like progressive.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I think that the reason I'm or like the word being progressive is that I don't like stagnating in anything and I think disruption of something is a rocket fuel thing for you to expand and be interested in new things and don't be like holding back on trying out new stuff, you know. So progressiveness in those terms for me is like okay, went from portrait photographer to fashion photographer, to shooting, let's say you could not like, not saying that I'm following my steps in terms of saying for anyone else like, or then suddenly figuring out that I want to do wedding photography. You can progress into that and become an ultimate wedding photographer using whatever you know tools that you have learned from before and then progressing into something new. But I think being a progressive photographer is like always trying out something new, a little like breaking your own rules a bit and you know, if you're sometimes like being really unsure about something is really good and just doing it anyways, you know, not leaning back on like I'm not gonna not gonna take the risk.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not gonna take the risk, but just do it. You know, and sometimes what happens out of doing that is that you end up with a result that you're gonna be like whoa, that's awesome, that looked really cool. That for me is, you know, being a progressive photographer, not like you know.
Speaker 1:yeah, Do you think you need to have as a photographer or an artist, do you think you need to have some level of trauma in your life to be able to express a story, a belief, a strength and more of a complex narrative?
Speaker 2:I mean.
Speaker 1:I look at you and knowing very little about you, but hearing that your mother passed away when you were young and then you know having a very broken childhood in terms of you traveled a lot, maybe not have somewhere that you called home and just having a lot going on as you were developing in those years, do you think that has really formed part of who you are as an artist now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think so, like not to do what everyone else is doing right now with the quote Rick Rubin, but, like you know, with his amazing book, you know he describes this very well and he finds a way to explain to people exactly kind of that question, because I've asked myself that question many times and I've even had conversations with some of my best friends where I really go, is it okay that I kind of want people to suffer?
Speaker 2:a little, because for me, looking back at it, the suffering really made me to who I am. And I've sometimes thought about my explanation of my mom's passing and how that influenced me. And I always say this I looked at her death as a gift. And when I say that, some people will kind of they interpret that and they go what. And then I kind of explain that the reason I look at it as a gift is that if her death would mean anything except or on the side of sorrow and grief and you know, it is what I can use in that to create something new, to experience life better, to understand people better, and if that didn't happen in that way, it wouldn't pique my interest of those things. But I had to open myself up for it. Like, if I look at my sister, let's say it's very different for me, has a very different life. You know, creative in her own way, but very little creative and you know, in terms of, let's say, what we traditionally call as arts or whatever, she's a creative mom and she works in hospitals and stuff like that. But then, looking at that and I go what does she do as a person? Well, she works with taking care of people that's gonna die. That's her job, and you have to be extremely creative, amazing. You have to have a mind that's like you know, and look at what the death of my mom had an influence on that, you know.
Speaker 2:So everyone experiencing something traumatic in life is, or, let's say, should try and look at those experiences as something positive. And then I mean positive. There's nothing positive about your mom dying, but in my way I would argue and say yes to his, because that makes not only the life that was lost meaningful, but it also makes meaning for you. You can use it for something. So, to come back to the question, like yeah, often thought about that and I go, oh, I really think that people should have a drug problem or lose someone or you know, something has to happen for them to sort of dig in and find something.
Speaker 2:And then my friend said to me, and he's like no man, like I don't think that and I'm like why?
Speaker 2:And he's like well, you can't decide what is traumatic and what is a negative experience for someone. Just because you're peaked on a very high kind of you lost someone near and dear, like your mom, doesn't mean that that other person if both parents are still alive or whatever, has an experience, other traumatic areas in their lives, like what am I, who am I to dictate what is a trauma or what is something that are of a significant negative impact. That could be work related, could be a heartbreak. It could be something very ordinary for me, but it's not ordinary for that person, right? The trick isn't to look back at a traumatic experience, is rather to utilize all of the emotions that are kind of put in front of you and dig into those emotions, be aware of those emotions and use those emotions, and when you do that, I think creativity sort of it's kind of easier to experience whatever you're making in a more deep and meaningful way. That makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, great answer, love it. What, in your 24 years as a photographer, give or take?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean 20 years, 20 years, like 20 years yeah.
Speaker 1:You know you've seen, even in that kind of two decades you've seen a lot of change and you know being able to stay true to who you are but also evolve with the times like super important. What out of those kind of experiences. Is there anything that's really surprised you in photography, and if so, what would it be and how kind of has it affected you, if at all?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, coming back to the whole thing, I think a lot of stuff looks the same to me now.
Speaker 2:Like I feel that's been a big change that has kind of morphed into everyone just accepting it to be like that, and I don't know necessarily how that's going to be like because, like we don't have to say we're completely into AI.
Speaker 2:But I just feel like there's like this correlation with like it's almost like it has been, it's been in the making for a long time and I feel like everyone's kind of been doing the same thing to end up in this robotic kind of way of doing things. As an artist that we're like, let's say, we talk about photography or is it like commercial photography. But I feel like, yeah, that's the most shocking thing to me that I don't feel like people are like when I look through things, I'm not seeing something fresh. I'm not seeing something that's like oh wow, this is something completely out of like. This came in from from left side, and I have no clue where that came from. I don't see that that much anymore. Why do you think that is I? Well, I baby this apart, because we're living here in Bali in a bubble and we don't go to Artics Abishops.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of that Responsibility, you know, but I kind of do as well. You know I travel a lot and I tend to have my eyes open and my ears open and I kind of look for things that are out there and sometimes there is, but there is a little bit of monopoly going on there as well from some of the art photographers that are pretty huge you know, they kind of own the scene a little, and I think that's really bad, I think that's not a good thing.
Speaker 2:I think the same happens to be with the brands using the same photographers all the time as well. You know, and I like that completely puts me in a difficult spot, because I'm actually commercializing for saying open up, use more different photographers, different things. Am I going to lose work because of that? Then, you know, and I'm like heck, no, like it doesn't work that way. I think the more we open up and the more we include new people and or new photographers or artists, whatever, the more the world would flourish and the better brands would come out of it and better clients and all these things, and there will be only more work, I think. But yeah, I think the most, yeah, that's kind of like just yeah. Why is no one really saying anything?
Speaker 1:Why is no one really?
Speaker 2:doing anything right Like it's just kind of like all right, well, I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1:Some of the intent behind this podcast was to kind of break those barriers down in my own tiny little minute way, but also to learn for myself and, I think, the more people that I think the idea behind social media was kind of that kind of bring people a little bit closer together, expand opportunities for more people, and I think it's had the reverse effect, unfortunately, because people create now for an algorithm and it all looks the fucking same because they see something that does well, that gets followers and likes and it gives them a dopamine hit.
Speaker 1:I want followers and likes, so I'm going to do what they do and it just homogenizes everything and obviously not a good thing. We're not going to talk about social media today because I talk about it all the time. I don't know the solution in a more digitized, isolated world. You know 20, 30 years ago before phones, relatively new internet going to an art exhibition or going to a museum or going to anything to appreciate, going to an opera or going to a music concert or going to a sports. You know just these kind of activities to expand the mind a little bit, travel, and now people just travel for content.
Speaker 1:It's like it blows my fucking mind. It's like come on, guys, and I don't. Obviously I don't have the solutions to it, but we can keep trying.
Speaker 2:I mean exactly, and I think things like this is really important and, like we spoke about briefly earlier, about that starting with your own community, or starting with the people next to you and inviting, and like me being here as well, I'm so happy that you are doing this. You know, like you have a voice and you're using it and you're including people that should also maybe have a voice or have been heard at least, and that's so. I'm really grateful for that. By the way, that's really cool and I think that's important and I think I do so.
Speaker 2:I wanted to briefly say that, like what I also have become out of me sort of understanding myself better, let's say I'll be more honest with myself is that I take almost all the pleasure in teaching now, compared to learning in a way, but I learned through teaching, but in my own way. When I was growing up, becoming a photographer or like being an artist and becoming an artist or whatever what have you is I was egotistic always. I was always thinking what I want and I wasn't really paying attention to whatever people were doing. I was like it's about me and it's about what I want to put out there, and it's about what means something to me, like I would just egotistically think about art, like in a way, if it makes sense, but if not, I try and explain it.
Speaker 1:Definitely make sense, because I'm the same.
Speaker 2:And then it kind of kind of went around a bit and then I caught up with myself and then I was like what makes sense now is that I kind of only want to give, like I don't want to produce for myself anymore, I want to produce for others. And then in then saying that I want to what I'm creating right now. I want to open up for explanation. I want people to ask questions and I can give the answers about it or as good as I can. And a part of me then started a mentorship program where I have so many people reach out sometimes or like through DMs or emails even or whatever, and they have questions. And I remember I was egotistically thinking about that when I was like years back and I was like that feels good, but I won't do anything about it. I don't have time. I'm not cool if I do, you know, because I'm not going to give my secrets away Like yeah, so.
Speaker 2:I was like, like Perien does that right, like, oh, he would never, you know like, and I would like, like I would make myself into this person that I would be so in loss of the right word to use here, but, like you know, feeling so good about myself that I didn't have time for others, you know so obviously. Then bursting that bubble and understanding how much power I have with that and how much I enjoy helping people. It's so, so much of my life is about that, so why not incorporate it into my workspace and what I know and what I do? And then I open my up to open myself up to communicating with these people around the world. And it's been crazy good, you know like. It's been like we connect over Zoom and we sit there and talk about things and most of the time it's like a little bit older men or some in their, you know, early twenties or whatever, and they're just like whenever that video comes up and their eyes go like and then they go. Am I good? It's you.
Speaker 1:And I'm like yeah.
Speaker 2:And then they go. You have no idea, Like, how much this means to me, like that I can actually speak to you, that you're there and I'm, like I know that feeling because I remember there was a time when I had so many questions and I was wondering about things how do you do that? What camera are you using? Or what film are you using? What film? Or how do you set up, when do you even put your camera when you're shooting? I had so many questions and I couldn't ask anyone, Like I just didn't. And I was looking at all the photographers and I was like with only I could speak to that person. And I will say really honestly back, I don't think that you speaking with me is going to relieve your questions that much, because I still have questions. Now, after 20 years or over that thing, I still have questions.
Speaker 2:When I see photographers, Sometimes I go like how the hell did I like that he did that? You know, like that's amazing. But I know that the comfort of me being honest with them about things that they, that I once wondered as well, and and all they're actually doing is seeking some honesty about, like, am I feeling the things that I'm supposed to be feeling If I'm this insecure about my photos, and should I be a photographer at all? Am I, if I'm not producing this type of imagery for social media? Should I even be a photographer? I can't get clients? Is that because I'm bad? I seem to not be doing my black and whites like you're doing your black and whites. Why is that? Am I not doing it well enough? This insecurity that pops up and all they want to do is have a pat on the shoulder and say, adaboy, it's good what you're doing and keep doing it. You're going to exceed and you're going to change over time, but you have to accept that it's time.
Speaker 2:It is about you spending time and believing in yourself and not giving up. That's it. You do that, something will happen. And don't give up and utilize whatever you have around you all the time. Use your friends, family, wife or husband or kids or your neighborhood or whatever you have shit around you all the time that you can use. It's up to you to utilize the things that are around you.
Speaker 2:Not sit and wait for things to happen. Not sit and wait around for the perfect lighting to come around. What if that gloomy day is perfect? It shouldn't be a sunrise that morning, it should be gloomy, and take that picture. Go goddamn it out there and things will happen. For me to sit and have those conversations with these people and I can see that that's all they wanted was some comfort. For me, that means everything. That's the meaning, and now I'm like I understand why I'm a photographer now. It's not to produce fashion shit, it's not to produce swimwear. It's to communicate with people, to have a conversation about something. That is about creating something and creating then insecurity and then having conversation about that, to basically go from one level to a level up and then progressing. And that's life as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what a wonderful circle for you to come back to being within yourself and giving everything that you've learned over two decades to other people. And most of those lessons, like you've just explained, I'm sure, are just human lessons. They're not so much about the techniques of photography yes, there's. Obviously we all need to learn the basic elements of photography, but most of it is, like you said, that reinforcement, that hopefully expunging a bit of imposter syndrome, just being these people, vulnerable humans, put through a medium that is photography, essentially, or learning a new skill, that's all they're doing. Fuck photography. They're learning something new and to be able to be that person that they can get a pat on the back from must be extremely powerful, extremely meaningful and extremely purposeful. I think that's amazing. Yeah, one of the traditions we have on these episodes is I asked a question from my previous guest who wrote a question for you. I'm not sure you have much more to say, but I'm sure you do.
Speaker 1:His question was what would you like to say to the world? Wow, oh my God. I guess that can be interpreted in metaphorical, literal ways.
Speaker 2:I'd like to say that it's probably the most important time, if not the, you know, of all times, to come together on a non-digital way, I think, seek out near and dear friends, families and whatever and start having conversations again face to face, learn how to communicate with one another again I think is probably the most important thing that we have to do right now and be there for each other and support each other in a difficult time in a, in a, in a on, in a very abstract, weird world we're living in right now. It's good to know that we're humans and remember that sometimes you know like by communicating and not over SMS or I say SMS, still I don't even know that people or you know chatting on the phone.
Speaker 2:you know MSN messenger.
Speaker 1:Yeah, MSN, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was like you know. So yeah, I think doing that like reach out to your onerous and dearest and talk to them.
Speaker 1:What does the future look like for you over the next year to five years in the space?
Speaker 2:I am going to concentrate way more on mentoring, mentorships, doing probably more collabs with people, with artists. I want to focus a little bit on producing some form of school and I want to, yeah, like when it comes to kind of workshops in general is more like, yeah, like a school based system probably. I want to do that, and then I am looking forward to more travels.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cool. Well, last question is a lucky dip.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Conversation question. All right, I'll give you the choice face down to Pakenny card Pakenny card.
Speaker 2:I was just looking at that one. Am I going to read it? I'll read it for you, ok.
Speaker 1:All right, here we go. If there was one singular idea that had the most profound impact on your life, what would it be? What's the first thing that comes to mind?
Speaker 2:Oh, being honest, being honest, yeah, that's not an idea yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because, like well, look, look, I think that people have a very let's say what's it called Like the honesty itself. I think people have a sort of imagination of what that is, an idea of what honesty is. I think that honesty is like you have to be true to yourself first, Like you have to sort of understand what, how you are viewing the world first, so you can kind of then like, OK, I get this. Now I can kind of like go out into the world in a way and have a meaning or say something, and I think the idea is that if you are honest with yourself, you are going to act kindly towards the world that is around you, Because it's like it starts with you. I think for me it's like an idea let's do it, you know, like that's a good idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ok, you've convinced me.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've convinced myself on it a little. I was like hey, that sounds like a no.
Speaker 1:But I'm a big follower of Sam Harris. Do you know?
Speaker 2:Sam Harris.
Speaker 1:He talks about honesty, like his, his, so he has some undercurrents throughout everything he talked about or writes. He wrote a book about not lying, essentially, or the book is called. But he talks about just being honest with yourself all the time. Everything starts from there. Everything, you, you, you generally just can't live a good, happy life without being honest to yourself first and then honest to other people, even your children, I mean. He battles with that a lot and when they ask questions he can't really answer. And but I couldn't agree with you more, and I think it all begins there, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Everything begins there Absolutely, and I couldn't agree more even. Yeah, like what are you saying? I think Sam Harris is a very important voice out there and I think, yeah, I hope he reaches way more people as well.
Speaker 1:I'd love to see his figures because I always listen to. I listen to pretty much every one of his podcasts. I'm a bit of a silly fan actually. I think he's just one of the few people that talks a real sense in the world without too much faff, and a lot of his podcasts can be deemed as boring because it's quite monotone, but you know he doesn't succumb to that kind of shit.
Speaker 2:I think it's such a beautiful combination between actually an actual knowledge about neuroscience and he has done his due diligence on that but then also spending time in the spiritual room and learning how to meditate, or learning basic human sort of emotions, and those two skill sets are amazing and that's so empowering as well. And then, on top of it all, he has a good understanding on how to communicate that out, like he has learned how to give us stupid people a chance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I love Sam Harris. Well, I've loved this conversation. Thank you so much for joining us. It's hugely interesting, hugely profound, certainly listening to your story through so much and how that's come to what an amazing artist you are today. So thank you once again.
Speaker 2:I hope your pleasure was all mine.
Speaker 1:I wish you the best of luck with your new endeavors and I'll keep watching this space, definitely, and maybe we'll get you on again sometime. Thank you, I would love to Absolutely Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you, cheers, yeah, cheers.