Say hello via text message and join in the conversation!
In this episode of The MOOD Podcast, I welcome back cherished guests, Mike Will and Luke Jackson-Clarke. Their story of photography and digital influencer highs and lows, unfolds in the usual candid way when we get together. A year on since our last conversation, much has happened and is divulged in their learnings. From directing projects for Toyota to sharing insights at Adobe Max, Mike and Luke exemplify professional growth and the tenacious spirit required in photography and content creation.
We also talk about business acumen, unraveling industry pricing, strategic growth, and personal brand cultivation within the realm of digital influencer dynamics. From humble beginnings to commanding project fees reflecting their expertise, Mike and Luke's trajectory is always a testament to dedication, and they lead the way in the industry when it comes to work ethic, responsible photography ethics and business acumen.
Thanks to Mike as always (and eventually Luke) for coming on the show again, it's always a pleasure to sit down across a table with them.
Find Mike and Luke work across their socials:
Instagram: @m.visuals @watchluke
TikTok: @m.visuals
YouTube: @m.visuals @watchluke
Website: www.mvisuals.net, www.watchluke.com
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
Thank you for listening and for being a part of this incredible community. You can also watch this episode on my YouTube channel (link below) where I also share insights, photography tips and behind-the-scenes content on my channel as well as my social media, so make sure to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and TikTok or check out my website for my complete portfolio of work.
yoreh.
www.yoreh.co
discount code: moodpdcst.23
My FREE eBook:
www.form.jotform.com/240303428580046
My FREE Lighting Tutorial:
www.mattjacobphotography.com/free-tutorial-sign-up
YouTube:
www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay
Website:
www.mattjacobphotography.com
Socials:
IG @mattyj_ay | X @mattyj_ay | YouTube @mattyj_ay | TikTok @mattyj_ay
Say hello via text message and join in the conversation!
In this episode of The MOOD Podcast, I welcome back cherished guests, Mike Will and Luke Jackson-Clarke. Their story of photography and digital influencer highs and lows, unfolds in the usual candid way when we get together. A year on since our last conversation, much has happened and is divulged in their learnings. From directing projects for Toyota to sharing insights at Adobe Max, Mike and Luke exemplify professional growth and the tenacious spirit required in photography and content creation.
We also talk about business acumen, unraveling industry pricing, strategic growth, and personal brand cultivation within the realm of digital influencer dynamics. From humble beginnings to commanding project fees reflecting their expertise, Mike and Luke's trajectory is always a testament to dedication, and they lead the way in the industry when it comes to work ethic, responsible photography ethics and business acumen.
Thanks to Mike as always (and eventually Luke) for coming on the show again, it's always a pleasure to sit down across a table with them.
Find Mike and Luke work across their socials:
Instagram: @m.visuals @watchluke
TikTok: @m.visuals
YouTube: @m.visuals @watchluke
Website: www.mvisuals.net, www.watchluke.com
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
Thank you for listening and for being a part of this incredible community. You can also watch this episode on my YouTube channel (link below) where I also share insights, photography tips and behind-the-scenes content on my channel as well as my social media, so make sure to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and TikTok or check out my website for my complete portfolio of work.
yoreh.
www.yoreh.co
discount code: moodpdcst.23
My FREE eBook:
www.form.jotform.com/240303428580046
My FREE Lighting Tutorial:
www.mattjacobphotography.com/free-tutorial-sign-up
YouTube:
www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay
Website:
www.mattjacobphotography.com
Socials:
IG @mattyj_ay | X @mattyj_ay | YouTube @mattyj_ay | TikTok @mattyj_ay
I posted something for Bentley and the next day I had Lamborghini, Aston Martin and Maserati all in my DMs.
Speaker 2:What are brands looking for?
Speaker 1:I'll get it done. I'll get it done with no questions asked.
Speaker 2:Does social media run your life? How do people grow on social media? Then Consistency.
Speaker 1:Oh, hello, luke, this is the power of you can shoot. This is the place for people to get together, hang out, network, meet like-minded people and if you're watching, you should check it out.
Speaker 2:What does creator mean to you guys?
Speaker 1:People start now because they want to be either famous on social media or they want to have a large following and get paid lots of money from brands Fame is always the wrong mindset.
Speaker 2:We shouldn't be teaching people how to make viral videos. We should be teaching people how to make cool content. I want to be. I want to be like Mike Bruh. Why?
Speaker 3:am I actually doing this? If you want to get to where I am today, you've got to realize that you can't just start now and next year be where I am.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about Instagram.
Speaker 3:Yes, the love, likes and validation is almost what people are on social media for have you been sacked from Adobe yet, Michael.
Speaker 2:I was to say welcome to the podcast again now. Thank you very much, so you're the first guest we've had on for a second time. So that is so. It's been a year Like I found these on my fridge Amazing From last year. I think that was about a year ago.
Speaker 1:It was exactly a year ago. It was exactly a year ago.
Speaker 2:It's almost to the day. That's insane, and I look 10 years younger.
Speaker 1:Because the beard's on there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's a Polaroid, so it helps everybody. It's an absolute pleasure to have you back. We've already been chatting and catching up. So you know where to go from here. I guess let's start with what you've been doing in the last year. You're one of the busiest guys I know, so tell us everything.
Speaker 1:I mean, we're back in Bali now. It's been a full year. I think the biggest thing that's happened in the last year is that the travel ramped up another notch, so we were just on the road every month. It was like one or two different countries and the campaigns leveled up probably two to three X on, you know, financial, which was great, but also then in terms of like stress and what was expected. So it's been an amazing year that lots of things have happened and it's kind of crazy looking back over it, like how I'm trying to think what we were doing getting ready for this time last year. We were heading back to.
Speaker 1:I didn't really have any campaigns in the work, I just done something for Adobe, and after that I wasn't really sure. Yeah, and every brand basically then was just like we want more of this, we want to double that, we want to triple that. I was out in Spain shooting commercials for Toyota, which was an amazing experience where I was directing short film content for them. We then just traveled to Cappadocia for fun. I was then in LA for Adobe Max in Turkey.
Speaker 3:It's where they have this crazy balloon.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, again, like just off, just for fun, just to go out and shoot, and then, yeah, then I was working heavily with Adobe. You went to Adobe Max in London, well, london first, but then I was in LA for that Travel to Iceland, travel to yeah, I was in LA actually, and then Vegas as well shooting EDC. So did a lot of DJ stuff I don't even know yeah, that was such a wide, open-ended question yeah. And then, no, I was in Cape Town before I came over, yeah, so, anyways, lots of going on.
Speaker 2:Business-wise. Then you said 2X, 3x in terms of income revenue. Yeah, was that you know? What do you put that down to? Is it just to cheer volume of work, or is your strategy?
Speaker 1:changed. No, I think the client basis just grew that other level. I think also you learn as you go through the industry. The more you do these campaigns, the more you kind of judge and you know what to ask for, what's expected, what the rights are and how that end result is then obviously financial, financially, how much more you can ask for in certain things. So, yeah, can you give me an example.
Speaker 1:Well, so one client maybe. I would charge 3K for a project and then I realized that I could charge like 8, 9k for a project.
Speaker 2:Why do you think that is? Is that because you've a lot of them repeat business? You've kind of shown them what you can do?
Speaker 1:Yeah, repeat business.
Speaker 1:There was a couple where, like I would do a campaign, I'd shoot it and then they want to extend the rights because it did so well.
Speaker 1:So then they would come back and then the rights would originally like one project, I think I got paid 3.5 grand and then they renewed the rights of 5 grand and so suddenly you're like tripling up or doubling up almost what you were getting paid initially and then the rights for another two years after, then then progressively made it bigger and then the commercial side, like shooting, bigger.
Speaker 1:I think there's a big shift and I've something else hopefully on the horizon line for April, where now big companies need social media content, not just the TV, and they're bringing down that 100K budget and they're putting it into 10 videos for 10K each, and so then if you can get onto a couple of those, suddenly you're getting involved in much bigger budgets than just like a few hundred pound here and a few hundred pound there for those kind of videos.
Speaker 1:So if you can get in with the larger scale agencies that are pitching these things to the brands and then you as a creator can direct, bring a team together and produce epic short form content that you know. You know the space, whether it's TikTok or Instagram or YouTube Shorts now or YouTube Longform. You can then put that together in a much larger well, a much smaller package, and it's not just going to be one video for 100K, which is normally what I paid for, it's 10 videos for 100K, 10k per video, and the things like that are kind of like. I'm seeing it more and more and hearing about it more and more as well through friends, so the opportunities on those kind of things is what's, for me, is exponentially growing.
Speaker 2:How do we come together as like a photography and videography and creative community, to share this type of knowledge and gain insights as to what we should be doing? We you know the collective, we as kind of like a group, as kind of an industry, almost like you know you think about other industries that might be unionized or might have standard kind of ideas.
Speaker 2:But, you know, the thing that always amazes me with this industry is it's, you know, fucking free for right. I hear from one friend that they're struggling to get jobs and that big brands don't want to have really like lower, limited budgets. And then I hear from other people that you know, with bigger players are coming into the game now for short form video and they have huge budgets and it's all about timing and who you know, and it's just and it's still like this confluence of so much confusion. How does a beginner you know? Where do we go to kind of get that source of knowledge?
Speaker 1:Where do we even I mean, it comes over time and I feel it comes with chatting to other people and if you can find someone else that's open and you can honestly trust them. Like I have a really open relationship with my housemate. He's also a great creator, he just landed in Bali yesterday and we're super open with with how we work and what we're going to charge a client and then so he's learned from me a ton, I've learned from him a ton and from there we can. So that's two people. And then I have the same relationship with someone else. That's three people.
Speaker 1:And then early on, like people realize they could come and talk to me and I would give them as much advice as they possibly could about pricing at certain stages through their career, because I've already gone through that, and then they'll hopefully won't make the same mistakes I did and they can level up a little bit faster. But also I'll learn from if that then worked, I'll come back and say, man, thanks so much, I got an extra four grand for that. I can't believe it and I go great. So it did work and my predictions were correct of how it actually is progressing in the industry and then where they'll be in in you know a year's time, once they have another 100k followers, or you know once they're engaged in or their create content creation has then improved a little bit more. So I think there is no booklet, there's no like online area to go and find out. Maybe someone will make an online masterclass of some sort, maybe someone I mean, I've always thought about doing a business related as long, along with you know content creation and everything else kind of a package to try and help people and try and help creators. I've just never again put my time into it.
Speaker 1:So maybe one day, but at the moment I the main way that I've done it is by speaking to other people openly and hoping that you don't get screwed over and they're open back to you, which is obviously you have to put our trust in people. I don't go into a conversation with someone I don't know and tell them, but you know there's a few other people that come through in London and I've become friendly with them and I've learned that I'm going to trust you and they'll do the same thing back. You know whether it's sharing a client's email or whether it's sharing a price that they got for a real. So you're like shit, okay, I can. I can do that because I've doubled the followers, so I can probably get a little more out of them, but I was going to not do so. Yeah, the network around you is key to then leveling up. And if you're starting off, though, it's really tough because you don't have those, those kind of those people around you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so and you don't have social proof.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know you may not have worked with other clients before or you may not have 100, 200,000 followers, but you can guarantee that engagement. So I find just by speaking to people and listening and actually touched on this with our last guest but where do beginners start? And should beginners give their time and and creativity away for free, to to to step foot in that space?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean absolutely. The first few shoots I did were free and they were terrible, but they were. You know, I mean looking back at terrible, but at the time they were great and it was good experience. And if you can, I think the main thing is also is never say no to a job Like, even if it's something you don't really know, you don't know, but if you know you're going to hate it, then don't do it. But if you think I'm probably not going to like this, but who knows, it's a few hundred pounds or a few hundred dollars, whatever it is, go and do it, learn from it and if you do like it, great, you can continue. And if you don't like it, fine. Even if it's a free shoot and you've never shot it before, I wish you every single thing I possibly could, because then I was narrowing down what I do like and what I don't like and then I can then have proof of concept I've shot that before I can do it.
Speaker 1:I mean, the easy example is a car. Like I'd never shot cars before, I did one shoot for fun and then it instantly got a paid campaign and then from there just exponentially grew because one car company would see it. Another car company would then come knocking on the door saying, hey, we'd like to work with you. And then I managed to get in the luxury car space and I remember I I don't think I've said this before, but I posted something for Bentley and the next day I had Lamborghini, aston Martin and Maserati all in my DMs asking about shoots and if they could send me a car to go and shoot with. And so like initially though I would never have dreamed of that I was shooting in Nissan and I was shooting like, literally like my mate's car, just out on the street on a driveway, and I was like it doesn't happen overnight.
Speaker 1:But if you put yourself out there and you do it and you know, maybe if you want to shoot cars, go to a car meet. There's car meets all over the world. If you want to shoot cars, hire one and go shoot a nice luxury. If you can't, then get it, you have the background of. You know, you have that social proof that you've gone out and shot and you've posted in this corner. It looks good and you've learned from it. That's then when you can then kind of get those clients in. But until then, yeah, she's a case of grinding away and doing it when does photography fit in for you at the moment?
Speaker 2:Do you do much, or is it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, a lot yeah.
Speaker 2:How does it work with brands?
Speaker 1:So I mean the last thing I did I was in Dubai shooting. We were doing a photography workshop, so that was really fun and we were obviously shooting every day. Gotta think what month we are now February. What was I doing after that Leap year?
Speaker 2:March tomorrow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mad Brands, brand-wise it's probably 50 video, 50 photo, 50%, really Okay that's good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I'm doing stuff for Renault. They just I'll be on my page probably in the next three months. I became an ambassador for them for the R5, which is pretty cool, like obviously it's a nostalgic old-school car that lots of my mates had growing up and they've brought out the all-electric version, and so I'm doing stuff for them and it's photo and video, 50% of each. So I don't see any project I can think of right now that's coming up immediately. I'm going to be shooting Again, like when I'm touring with DJs, shooting that it's 50% video, 50% photo.
Speaker 2:So that's good, because you always think it seems, in the environment of brands and clients, that video is king. Right, of course, because it's driven by the algorithms of social media and they want that. So it's nice to hear that, even if it's 40% or 30% like photo's still around. Because you have to use them. What are the brands you know?
Speaker 1:keep kind of doubling down on the business. I mean, I'm open about it, so ask away.
Speaker 2:What are brands looking for? Why do you think you have been so successful and continue to be with working for big brands, big clients, in your experience? What? Obviously they want good content, right. But let's say you know a handful of people are pitching for a job and they all, kind of hypothetically exactly the same. But what is going to be the difference maker?
Speaker 1:I'll get it done. I'll get it done with no questions asked, easy to work with, I'm reliable. I think the main thing is just like I just get shit done. Like someone asked a client a high-end client and they were like, why? Like, how does Mike get all these jobs? And they were like, because he does it, he doesn't question anything, he doesn't, you know, not get it done on time. The email's done straight away and that helps by having a team. You know I have an amazing assistant. She helps me with everything. I've also just signed to management, so I now have a team of talent management which is more around the social media influencing side, and we can dive into that a little bit about why I signed, but I'm happy to have that. But the main thing is, yeah, you just go out and get it done and you do it with passion and yeah, like I guess the big thing there is that I've worked almost like an agency, where I was then helping other creators to have opportunities and actually seeing how certain people communicated was really interesting, because communication is key for everything.
Speaker 1:Right, and people were delayed on giving the imagery in the video, people were slow on emails, they didn't have the ideas on time and people that I expected to be really instantly. They were days late and the people I didn't expect. Some people were really good and one of them I then read he was very fresh in industry and he exponentially grew. And I know exactly why he did that because he was so organized. The folder was named, the images were named in simple.
Speaker 1:You know, it's simple things, but if you're organized and you get shit done straight away and you're reliable and you have the ideas, thing is like where, probably where it's a bit harder for some people, because I constantly have ideas and I'm thinking about things all the time, like I never switch off. So when a brand does come to me, they know that I can have an idea within 24 hours and they're really cool, different, something a bit different that maybe the agency can't think of or whatever. But other than that, anyone can be organized. Anyone can reply to an email first. If you're willing to check your emails a couple of times a day, anyone can can do it. It's not something that no one else can do. So, yeah, get shit done, just discipline.
Speaker 1:Discipline, yeah, and I learned that through sport and I think we talked about that last time. But, like, sport was a massive part of my life and still is, and, and you know, being a pro athlete for 10 years taught me so much discipline and never say you're going to do something if you can't do it. I will never say to anyone in life that's not just with content creation or anything but I'll never say to anyone I'll do something unless I believe 100% I can follow through on it and do it. And whether that's making dinner plans or saying to a client, of course I can get that video done by the 28th of the month and then it not being done like no, that's not something I do. So discipline and integrity.
Speaker 2:I mean they carry anyone through life in any industry.
Speaker 1:Any discipline, exactly Any industry. Yeah, very good.
Speaker 2:Very impressed. You mentioned management. Tell us a little bit more about that, in terms of what the scope is and what it involves.
Speaker 1:I've seen a slight shift with a few creators doing it and I think that originally it was something you know, obviously music artists, you know, sports stars, everyone's in that has kind of had that, and now a few creators have started to get them and I was really interested, speaking to other creators that do have management, how it was going for them and it seemed to be going great, and so I was always on the.
Speaker 1:There was a year of maybe two years ago, now year and a half I spoke to one agency but it was not the deal I wanted and it wasn't, and I was just like, fine, I'm not doing it for, you know, for the cloud. I'm not doing it to be like, oh, I've got a manager, speak to my manager. I was doing it because it would be a good, not only a good benefit for my business, but also a benefit for me having to do less emails and less of everything else and all of that, and that's the main reason. It's just to get all of that. Anytime a new one comes in, I can just pass it over and let them do their work, which is great, and you know they seem like great people. We've been working together for a month now and I'm really happy with how things things are going.
Speaker 2:But initially I was yeah you want to give them a plug, or can you connect? Yeah, of course.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, yes. So connect, pick up the guys that connect. They're a young agency. When going to 2020, met the team, went into the office. They're all super energized, really nice, really nice group and I have three people that are really, really awesome and, yeah, they're working hard behind the scenes now to to, yeah, bring in some new clients and some new things, and we've got some new ideas and they're great for doing that as well, because it's just giving me another push, because sometimes I have to be kicked to actually follow through on certain things, and you know, we talked about YouTube very briefly.
Speaker 1:That's something I've wanted to do and now they're like right, let's go get it done, get it done, and I've also got. You know, I want to do as much as possible for them, because they need to. You know, they got to eat as well, and I've always been very much like, if I'm meeting everyone around me, it's going to eat, and that's been something I've done since day one. So I want to have as much success through them, because the more success we have as a team, then it's going to be, you know, great for everyone involved. So, yeah, I think it's a. I think it's a good thing, because outreach is something I didn't have time for, slash can be bothered to do, and then inbound traffic when it would come in, which is, you know, amazing.
Speaker 1:I was just starting to be like four. This is it's kind of it much for me having all this and there was so many things coming through the door. I'm trying to organize it all and check out what the exclusivity for us for this, and if this was my socials, their socials you know where it was going the usage rights, and I think that I've kind of been figured out how it all goes together. But still, I know that they'll be able to bump up certain areas of rates and it's just all about the network as well.
Speaker 1:My network has been amazing, but then to then double down with their network and then, if I can help them with with certain things, it'll be really good and I think it'd be really beneficial. So I'm seeing a shift. A few more guys have signed recently to others and I think that we'll see a few more creators getting involved, not just your classic get music or sports, or even like influencers, because a lot of influencers are assigned but not many like. I would still call myself like a photographer, director, videographer, and there was only a couple on their books at the time I signed, so I'm assuming it's the same. Now I haven't checked, but that was a big reason as well is because they were willing to, you know, bring me in as one of their newer guys in that kind of space that they were looking to grow.
Speaker 2:So what was wrong with the first deal?
Speaker 1:Just lots of things. They were asking for too much money, asking for too much, not wanting to give much. They were a very big agency anyways and like I would just spend a number on a book, and they saw me as someone that had success and that I could then bring in a ton of. Give them all my contacts, basically. And I was like I'm not going to give you all my work that I've already worked for for years. And they were just like, well, yeah, that's how it works, you give us everything. And I was like no, I'm good cheers, whereas this one was a bit, I'm obviously going to give them everything. But there were certain clients that, like I have a, you know, whatsapp relationship with probably my four biggest clients and it's like you're not going to be in the WhatsApp chat. I'm just going to text them and say, hey, what's coming up? What are we doing here? You know how's it going there. And then that relationship they were just getting the way off, so they were great about it. So that was the reason.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just started working with I don't know what his manager. I guess.
Speaker 3:Okay, cool.
Speaker 2:But he has his own small agency and there's a big difference between working with an agency and working with an agency or an agent. Right, Huge, huge difference. And what I can see how certainly newbies and beginners in the space may not have the network that you already have and the social proof you already have and the following and the gravitas that you already bring to an agency. I can see how they get sucked into that and that's okay, yeah no, it is good.
Speaker 1:I mean, I have a friend we were in LA together. He was on the same campaign and he's super too talented but has zero business saviourness. And I was like, mate, you just got to get to an agency because you all do so so well. And then he signed to the same agency. I am so, which is great, because obviously I want him to have success because he is so talented, but was always just like man, how do you get that client? How do you? And he didn't, just didn't quite get that. And then once he realized the opportunity he had within that, it was then, but the terms was probably quite different because didn't have the network that I had and therefore, but for him that's unbelievable because now he does have that network within them. So can you really beneficial for people, especially people that have talent, that either don't want to do the business side or don't have the network?
Speaker 2:I think it's very daunting to think about the business side, but it's just as important as the content side. So I don't see you doing that on your socials, but you've obviously thought about it. Maybe some education stuff on pitching or business side or image rights. Like even I'm like. Some people have asked me for exclusive rights of images.
Speaker 1:Like.
Speaker 2:No, I'm like there's no money in the world. That is, if I'm going to an amazing place, like there's ways around it which probably won't mention now, but that kind of maze can be really daunting for people and there's still no kind of central place where people get right. Go and watch, go and see this, go and follow this guy. He just gives a fucking brilliant advice on his business experience and what you should do with this and what you should do with that and you should get representation or not.
Speaker 1:I mean that's true. I think one thing is just, the space has a hole within the social media content creation, photography, video. It's moving so fast that if you were to do something, it might change within sort of four to six months. So that would be one of my. Give me an example. Well, like with rates and with I mean okay. So example that wouldn't change, for instance, is the image rights. So that is pretty standard. It's not changed for years. It's pretty, but you only learn it when you get to a certain level, like they didn't teach you that when you're starting off. So now you said that it makes complete sense for me to do something like that, because it's like no one knows about it and it's not taught and no one likes to share that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, why does no one like to share this kind of stuff? You're one of the only guys that is willing to share. You know not your full fucking bank statements, but you know just some general kind of financial information and you know the business. Certainly, the litigation side of how you manage contracts, stuff like that, you don't. I don't anyway have the experience of meeting other people that are willing to share that, but I don't know why.
Speaker 1:I think it's also scary because, like some people still don't have that like the network of brands and contacts that I just know there's going to be constant things coming in because it's always progressing and there's always ways we can level up and I'm not scared to, like help someone else because maybe they will get that campaign and I won't, but there's plenty of campaigns.
Speaker 1:So, like you know, if you're getting hit up the same campaign as five of the creators, there's another five campaigns out there and you can't do all of them. So, like it'll be draining. If you're getting every single one and I just I don't want every single one either, because that just makes no sense You're going to run out of ideas, you're going to run out of energy and then you're just going to not want to do any of them. And maybe you do five in a month, which is great, but then you're not going to do five for five months because you're fucked. So, yeah, but why? Back to the original question, yeah, I don't know. I think maybe confidence, like, and maybe just the fact that you're not like you weren't brought around. I think I'm in quite unique position with the whole team thing. I'm very used to everyone sharing everything, like in the locker room. That culture was cool to be around because you knew so much about all these guys would spit everything in front of you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like you know shower time and then like yeah, literally, and then you know what it was like the night before. You know everyone went out for parties and then what it was, you know the hockey, actual game itself and relationships, everything you heard, everything you know. It was quite open. So maybe I was lucky to be in that environment and learned that maybe openness isn't such a bad thing within the creative space. And it was like an early example when I was starting photography.
Speaker 1:People would gatekeep locations and it was just really annoying and I would just be like, oh, come on, like let's just share it, and then I would be willing to just share anything because I just saw it as like a big communal thing. Everyone could go and do stuff. So I guess that's eventually trickles down to the business side. And you know, I've kind of done all the locations in London. There's probably not an area I don't know. So therefore, where's the next thing I can share? Well, okay, it's, maybe it's business advice or yeah, whatever avenue that is. I guess it's just going to trickle down eventually for me to just be like, yeah, cool, whatever.
Speaker 2:That's something now that maybe people don't know.
Speaker 1:Put them in the spot. I don't know Like.
Speaker 2:I share. Like if you're on this podcast for a second time, I'm going to put you through the fucking mill.
Speaker 1:I don't really have anything that like because you shared everything. Because, yeah, like I mean, if someone asked me something I'll tell them, Like I'm not, I'm not afraid to be like, yeah, no, I should have really want to discuss that. I mean, I guess the one thing no one really knew about the management, so that's a bit I haven't told anyone else, like my housemate doesn't know, I mean, luke knows how many other people know it. But so you're probably fourth, fourth lesson to know, oh, what privilege.
Speaker 2:Well, good luck, I'm really excited yeah thank you. You know you're going to take it double down and triple down probably if you're going to leverage their expertise and that network and create more time for you, and that's why probably YouTube would come in now because, you know, you're literally delegating all the shit that you didn't have time to or you don't want to do. So that's the idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah, precisely. And then it doesn't matter if eventually you know early on especially if you're giving them that 20%, I don't care it's about. It's going to be amazing to have that time back because then hopefully in a year I can grow my YouTube or I can grow my TikTok or I can grow my Instagram even more, and then that will be paid back with jobs that they're going to get me in the next year, because you know that's going to be exponentially growing when your social handles all grow and that kind of thing progresses. So, yeah, happy with it.
Speaker 2:Does social media run your life?
Speaker 1:Yeah, a lot of the time. How do you handle that, or don't you? No, I mean, I'm not really as much as run my life in terms of like I guess define run your life, because I'm very happy to do. I do what I want to do when I want to do it, but I will then have to always be posting, I'll have to always be engaging, I'll have to always think about a new trend and how that's going to happen and keep an eye on what's happening, because also, not only it might not be good for my channel, but if a brand comes to me and they want me to click on them, I've got to know other trends that are going on, because then I've got to then transition that into something that might work for a completely different brand. That's not wanting me to post it, so there's a lot of things going on there. But I think also it's fun, like I enjoy what I do.
Speaker 1:It's really good fun to be just able to do what I want to do when I want to do it, whether it's travel or it's work with some incredible brands, opportunities this world has opened up and a ton of opportunities that I would never have expected to, and whether that's travel to Bali and see some cool places and meet some amazing people or shoot some incredible campaigns and have opportunities. That pre-release cameras or like I mean one of the biggest things that it last year actually was shoot the new Sony a7c2 and a7CR cameras, along with the 1635 Mark II. I shot the release video for the whole of Europe, so like, and photos as well, so like, yeah, I mean that's mad when you think about telling me that, like the UBD person that was when they announced it and the person in Europe was doing the talk and then they were like, here it is. It was then my mark on the screen and talking about this new camera and lens and shooting it in Iceland and London. So, yeah, the opportunities are mad.
Speaker 2:Like it's so cool to be able to do that as you're following grows, do you feel like you have a responsibility to be responsible?
Speaker 1:No, I think I've always been quite responsible. So I don't see, I don't see anything changing in terms of I keep my private life pretty private. I keep, you know, social media, that's my social media, and then you know the thing, other things going on in the background that I just don't really they don't share everything. So I don't really feel that the responsibility side is is affecting me in any way.
Speaker 2:How do people grow on social media then?
Speaker 1:Consistency. Like we said this last time, it's not changed. Yeah, I mean ideas. I think, Simone, is this going to be a previous? The next one, the one we had this morning?
Speaker 2:Yeah, is he going to be before me? Yes, so yeah we'll see how it fits Okay.
Speaker 1:So, Simone, he, you know he has a course, which is then all about ideas, and you know, some people struggle with ideas. They find out what you struggle with early on and try and identify that and if you're struggling with the ideas, find a course or something or someone that can help with ideas. If you're struggling with the edit, learn how to edit more. If you're struggling with the photography side, go out and shoot more. Go out and shoot more and like, yeah, just just do it.
Speaker 2:How's so? How's your photography and content creation evolved in Cicelysus?
Speaker 1:Probably more video, because I've done more video.
Speaker 2:Better video.
Speaker 1:Better video but just like. Also like I really enjoyed directing Right and I think that that's like seeing frames and seeing things and I've learned that because not only is that out and about in the open but that's also based in studios or whatever. It might be like seeing how what a client might want versus what you see, and how to manipulate that and make sure the client is happy, but also you're getting what you want as a director out of the team around you. That's really been interesting to Hello Luke, hi everyone.
Speaker 2:Before I let you continue with the podcast, just indulge me for a few minutes. I want to briefly talk to you about my new brand, yore. Founded with my business partner and photographic artist, finn Mattson, we are proud to bring you a new artisanal jewelry and specialty coffee brand, yep. What on earth do they have to do with anything? Well, they're both our passions and they've always been another artistic outlet for me, now for over a decade. For those that know me, coffee and jewelry have been my other obsession since I was young, and I am a qualified SCA coffee specialist. So when I met Finn, some of you might have listened to my podcast with him. When we barely knew each other, Our love for art and jewelry had a home, and that home is Yore.
Speaker 2:Yore is about the art of intent for everything that we do. Our intention with the label was to add a touch of celestial elegance and artistic expression to our visual narratives. Every piece is a statement, a reflection of your unique story and purpose. It's not just jewelry, it's a wearable piece of art that speaks volumes. Picture this Silver or gold adorned with an actual piece of lunar meteorite, making every piece as unique as the moments we usually capture through our lenses. From limited edition lunar jewelry pieces to finely crafted 925 sterling, silver and gold rings, pendants and chains there's something for all of you in each of our unique designs.
Speaker 2:We're also committed to the environment as much as possible. Our coffee in our barley showroom is direct trade, organically produced and locally farmed, minimizing impact on the environment as much as possible. Our packaging is all sustainable and our jewelry recycled other than the moonrock, of course Proudly eco-friendly. In both packaging and jewelry production. You can feel good about looking good. And to top it off, we offer worldwide shipping, ensuring that a piece of lunar beauty can grace your collection no matter where life takes you.
Speaker 2:And if you ever find yourself in barley, please come and visit our house of yore. Our cafe and community-driven art house is a haven for creatives just like you. And before we head back into the podcast, please just take a moment to explore yore's collection and a special treat for you, my wonderful audience. Yore is offering an exclusive discount, so head over to our website and use the code in the description for a 10% discount off your jewelry purchase. The link in details are all in the description. So thanks so much for listening and I'll let you get back to the podcast now. Welcome, it's good to be here.
Speaker 2:Better late than never.
Speaker 3:I know.
Speaker 2:I haven't seen you for like a year.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this time last year, eight months. What's been going on? Of course it's been a one hell of a ride, I guess I spent. I left Bali in July. I went to the US with my brother, a bunch of UK, uk shooters, things which I'm sure you've touched on already.
Speaker 2:We haven't. We're waiting for you, we're on the list.
Speaker 3:Okay, and then I cut along story short a bunch of things. Then Venezuela, which is a big trip, which was incredible. It's an amazing shot, probably the best part of the year. And then back out here, what were you doing in Venezuela? It was a passion project.
Speaker 2:Oh, was it yeah.
Speaker 3:So I've always dreamed about going to Venezuela because my parents went there on their honeymoon, so they've always told me about this incredible place. That, unfortunately, has been a tough place to visit over recent years and ever since meeting one of my close friends now, who was the guy that ended up taking me out to Venezuela I met him about seven or eight years ago and he used to work for Google I've always wanted to go with him. Did you meet him at the UK shooters? He so yeah, so that's an interesting transition. We actually, funny enough, met at the UK shooters event, but I didn't really like we didn't properly connect there. We just it was a very quick meeting and then about three months later, we went on a trip to Italy through a mutual friend that met through UK shooters as well. This is the power of UK shooters, which we'll get into in a second. And then cut along story short he's from Venezuela, always dreamed about going, Said I wanted to go. He said can't do it up until last year. So it's just a mate, he's a mate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, uk shooters, like we just talked about how you've been evolving and your photography and videography has evolved over the last year. Whatever, how's UK shooters Like let's talk about the UK shooters, world shooters, all the kind of spin-offs what's been going on for the last year? I mean it's been growing right and in terms of yeah, yeah, it's been amazing.
Speaker 1:So, obviously, the community if anyone doesn't know, uk shooters were started in 2016. And I just wanted to get people together, which is a way for again, we touched on this. But photography was like a soloist hobby, gatekeeping. There was all that kind of stigma around it early on, especially in the UK with the way that we are premium and proper, and then in the US it was way more open. I went out to the US and everyone was like super chilled, like you know, literally you'd be shooting in the street and people would go oh my God, you know what are you shooting? On no way, I'm shooting this as well. And it was like wait, what you want to actually talk about photography? And I was buzzing.
Speaker 1:And then I came back to the UK and I was like where is this community? And there was nothing. So then I launched the UK shooters. We started it and then it exponentially grew and grew to what it is today, which we have shooters, communities around the world, but in particular, uk shooters, which Luke and myself run, and we had some. Yeah, we had some epic events and the last. I'm going to have to get my schedule up because I can't even remember what we've done, but in the last year we ran 10 events.
Speaker 3:Which is relatively slow, like we had a really good year. What a month, yeah, essentially.
Speaker 1:But, like the big thing is, when we come to Bali, I come out for a month and that means two months off usually.
Speaker 1:January, february off. But, yeah, it's just a place for people to get together, hang out, network, meet like-minded people and just learn from each other as well. Like I can just have those friendships. And it's funny because my housemate and I, I mean, we met at the first UK big UK shooters event we did. That's where Ray then met and you and it's where, like a ton of the older guys I say older we've been doing it since 2016. But where that original group met in early 2017.
Speaker 1:And, in terms of like, yeah, the growth has been great to see the community just continue to grow and people new people as well wanting to come all the time to these events to just meet other people. Really, we had a pretty hectic one in the UK and in the US. We had some awesome stuff. In LA, we just actually ran one this month, just gone last weekend, which was great. Where else, oh, dutch and in the Netherlands, they've been smashing it as well. So they just run two events, one with F1 and one with Sony. So, yeah, it's been, it's been great and it's been a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:Sure has. What does the future look like, then, for UK shooters? Is that going to be a bigger and bigger part of your daily life? That's a great question.
Speaker 1:I mean we had, we had talks at the end of last year just to discuss, like, how we want to grow it and how it can exponentially grow and it's just a case of time and how we can dedicate enough time to it to make it. To make it either exponentially grow even more or just continue on the timeframe around where it's 10 events, 10, 12 months, 10, sorry, 10, 12 a year, and then keep doing what we're doing and growing that community at like a really great level. Or you know things like do we have like a co-working space and a coffee shop where we can actually then have a physical space which makes it way easier for people to come in and have that? And but then it's a case of like do we have the investment somewhere to actually come in and help us, because that needs to have someone else get involved in London.
Speaker 2:Right, you guys are rolling in it. She's your outcast.
Speaker 3:I mean yeah. It's not quite the same as putting up a place in Bali, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the truth is a little bit very true, yeah, I don't know if you've seen the rent prices in London, but they're definitely not friendly right now.
Speaker 2:Sometimes. I was back in the UK a couple of weeks ago and every time I go back like how do people afford to live?
Speaker 3:here. It's crazy.
Speaker 2:And in London is obviously even worse.
Speaker 1:I just, we lived in a few spaces and it was just like fuck, you want that much, like what do you want to come with you?
Speaker 3:have to move country and go somewhere else.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I mean. We then said, Bali would be cool.
Speaker 2:Indochewers, indochewers yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's so much scope for opportunity. It's just a case of you know how do we then separate our time? Do we bring in someone else to help? Do we have another person come in and start running the event side so we can just have more of them? Do we look to have a co-working space, slash coffee shop? How would that model work? Would it be subscription based? Would it be, you know, you pay on entry? Would it be you know how do you get these things to roll, moving forward into a To keep it sustainable? Because shooters is not really about making mad money, it's about getting people together, and so, therefore, we just want to make sure we're not losing money on then having this amazing, you know, giving people opportunity, which you know we've always done and we want
Speaker 1:to continue to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what does the scope look like for you over the next six 12 months? Me specifically.
Speaker 3:Good question. The first step is getting a meal today. So you've been shitting through the oven needle for the last 24 hours I haven't been too well, so I'm very happy to kickstart my day with the podcast. That's the best way to go. Bless him, and then I'm going to eat, so that's my first thing.
Speaker 2:Next. So the first thing out of the next six to 12 months is eat. Is eat, yeah, that's good, yeah, which is regularly my kind of schedule Required for survival.
Speaker 1:Exactly yeah.
Speaker 3:It's kind of important, and then for the next four months I'm here in Bali. Four months, yeah, yeah, which is great. Maybe get another podcast, then, you know, get it around.
Speaker 1:We're going away.
Speaker 3:We are going away. Where are we going?
Speaker 2:You're going to Java tomorrow.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're going away. No, we're going to Komodo. Oh, we're going to Komodo, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's what he's already forgotten.
Speaker 1:It's like a little kid, isn't he? Yeah Well, no I thought I was.
Speaker 3:So I'd gone from very, very early stage to then the full scale. So I'd gone from like literally the next hour to the next six months, to a year.
Speaker 2:All right, okay, so, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we've got that. From one hour to four months You're going to be in Bali, so then we're going to Komodo.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then Yuli Bali, unfortunately, which is great, correct. And then in May I come back to the UK for the UK Shooter Road Trip, which is very exciting, and if you're watching you should check it out online, it's a camera's not on, it's super fun. And then we. I then come back here for a month and a half and then potentially move to Norway. Yeah Well, potentially moves to Norway.
Speaker 1:This is exclusive for the podcast We'll see, yeah, I don't know that it's kind of up in the air.
Speaker 3:Okay, why Norway? My girlfriend's from there. So there we go. Boom, god, we love that. What do you call that? Adlib? That's going to be the soundtrack. Yeah, exactly. Oh, you got to talk about love before.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 3:Apart from our passion for photography, Love that that's great. So yeah, Norway, UK, Bali it really depends. She's studying at the moment.
Speaker 2:So you don't have to live in one place all the time. No, you travel enough as it is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, definitely, but that's my plan.
Speaker 1:I've got a question here, sorry. How long is this Norway thing going to be?
Speaker 2:in place. I think we've opened up something here they need to discuss first.
Speaker 3:We always do. There's always an interesting Luke's love life conversation on this podcast. The whole thing started last time with Palma.
Speaker 1:Matilda helps run my oh fine, okay, I'd better shout out my girlfriend then while we're talking. Simone, simone's amazing. Yeah, she's helped me a lot and yeah, she's awesome for the support. So thank you, simone.
Speaker 2:That wasn't forced to talk.
Speaker 1:No, oh, he's mentioning Matilda left, right and center off the bat, so I've got to get involved.
Speaker 2:What is Simone doing for you at the moment? And then look after your Looks after me, sexual and emotional.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just in general, that's it. She's amazing, no, she's. Is she doing like assistant stuff. No, she's doing her own thing. Oh, okay, so she's become a full-time creator as well. Quit her job this time last year and, yeah, I just wanted to let her go out and find her own way as a creator. Really so.
Speaker 2:What does creator mean to you guys? Photographer, I guess, but also like the opportunity within like social media management slash.
Speaker 1:I guess freelancing is also kind of on that same level, I think creator is a tough term.
Speaker 3:I think it specifically relates to us as the creator space we're in. So photography for a long time for both of us, video for me. Now I'm kind of moving into that.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:This kind of was where I make most of my money nowadays. Which is very fun for you, I guess, is podcasting. That's a creative thing and but also I think within that the difference between just solely a photographer or just solely a filmmaker or just solely a podcaster is we also run businesses to kind of allow what we do and to kind of keep bread on the table to pay for rent, things like that. So I think the beauty of the word creator for me is it tells more than just I take photos or I do videos or I speak to people online. It also kind of incorporates the entrepreneur type part of that as well how to run the business, how to make money, how to connect brands, all of that stuff. It's more than just the photographer, but kind of both at the same time.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's very difficult to be a photographer, the just the photographer these days and make enough money to survive, and that's both sad but also has opened up a load of other opportunities.
Speaker 3:Like when you talk about being a creator, yeah, I guess you need to be like, you need to be the biggest photographer ever just to be able to take photos and kind of thing, and I guess that's also why video came in. For me is like, I mean, you've done pretty well with pretty much solely focusing on photo for a really long time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we were just saying earlier that now the shift is probably 50-50, but I'm still trying to like, as I said, like to my agency and then to people I'm always still saying photography is like the thing to sell, and then if they want video as well, then fine, great, I can do it.
Speaker 2:If you're doing a personal project, what do you go to first? Photo.
Speaker 3:Photo yeah.
Speaker 2:So the end of the day you walk into your house, you want one of your photos on the wall. Yeah, yeah, it is interesting how much personal stuff do you actually do these days?
Speaker 1:Yeah, quite a lot. Yeah, I mean this whole trip like Komodo's is going to be like for fun, we're just going to go in and shoot some cool stuff.
Speaker 3:And like there was a really.
Speaker 2:You'll pick up a job between now and then.
Speaker 1:Probably yeah, I think we already have.
Speaker 1:But yeah, like I mean there was like there was a we did a Sony Kando trip, which was like the Sony ambassadors around the world all went on a trip within their country and like that was really fun because we were just shooting for ourselves on testing out different Sony gear and I really like remembered how much I loved photography and that was like a really nice reminder. But also then shooting on new things like underwater housing. So again, we have an underwater housing and we're going to Komodo because I want to do that and try some more just different things, keep it fresh.
Speaker 1:But yeah, photos, what if I go through the door? I love just like you having a print. And, yeah, it's just, it's just, I guess, a big love, a big passion. Do you find anyone?
Speaker 2:like asking you guys hey Luke, hey Mike, I want to be a content creator. Yes, how do I do it? What do you say?
Speaker 3:What does?
Speaker 2:that fucking mean. For a start it's a very good it's a very good question.
Speaker 3:That's actually probably one of the main things is. I asked a question back. You can't really just say one thing. It's like what do you actually want? Like, what's the specifics of your question here? Are you looking to be a photographer? Are you looking to be a filmmaker? Are you looking to be anything the beauty of that word creators. I could be a graphic designer full time and kind of document my stuff online and things like that. Or be a dancer nowadays with TikTok, I wish I could say I'm a dancer, but I'm not. But that's the question really.
Speaker 3:But usually I guess, when they come to us, it's a roundabout photography, maybe video nowadays. For me, so, the answer usually is something like pick up a camera, whatever that might be with you, whether that's a phone or is your friends or family's camera that you might be able to get a hold of and pick it up every single day, and that's it. That's my instant advice. I think, then, taking it that step further is like you have to be the creative first, like that's what we all. You know, mike. Obviously you'll touch on this yourself, but I think Mike started through his love for photography through, like school and university, because he did photography there.
Speaker 1:I did film back, but it wasn't like anything, I would say. It came about when I was playing sport and I needed something to get away from sport and I was going out and taking photos in the evening and just experimenting with photography was like a way of de-stressing in the evening. And like there's obviously a lot of pressures to win right, and then that was like my avenue out of it.
Speaker 1:And that was why I did that.
Speaker 1:But I think one of the big things there is that, like, the landscape within this industry has changed so much over the last sort of six, eight years when, like when we started, we were doing it just because we wanted to be photographers, and I think people start now because they want to be either famous on social media or they want to have a large following and get paid lots of money from brands, and so that's changed massively from when we started and why we started because that wasn't even a thing to then now people see it and they go I want to have that lifestyle and then they kind of like, don't start at the grass root, which is just going out the camera every single day, which, again, like, is one of the big things you asked about Simone and what she's doing.
Speaker 1:But she's shooting so much, she's had the camera out so much since we've been here and she's just so excited all the time and it's like getting those 10,000 hours in to be able to progress and get better, and she's not thinking about any of the financial things or wanting to be famous. She just wants to do it because she loves it, which is then, so amazing and awesome to see and that is what you need to have if you're going to have the sort of success that will be, have longevity as well, because you can have overnight success, a real can blow up and you can do something great, but you're not going to then have continual jobs for years and years and years. That just happens as a 100%.
Speaker 3:That's yeah, I was going to jump in there is that I think that it's not only the pre questions that you need to ask before you actually start getting into it Like why am I actually doing this but also realizing that this industry like many industries, really like anything you want to do if you want to be successful at it is you've got to realize that this is going to be like a multiple decade experience You're not going to. I mean, nowadays, I guess, for social media, you have these, you know, I guess, lucky stories where people not lucky, but more random stories where people post something online and suddenly they'll blow up and that's amazing. It's really amazing that we can do that now. But I myself and I know that you're very similar I've been doing this now for 12 years 12 years full time.
Speaker 1:Not 12 years, I can confirm.
Speaker 3:What's that?
Speaker 1:I'm not really 12 years? I can confirm, yeah, so I've been in this for 12 years now, which is a long time.
Speaker 3:I'm 12 years this year and it's been like every single day I've been.
Speaker 3:At the beginning it was very much about photography. You know, for me it was just about taking a photo every single day and learning how to edit it, and every single day sitting down editing things like that, whereas then it progressively, through social media, started to become this job. I guess people started to get in contact, being like hey, we want you to take these photos, things like that, and over time for me it's naturally become a living. But obviously, when someone comes to a question and says, how do you want to be a creator, I say to them look like this was a natural progression for me for 12 years.
Speaker 3:If you want to get to where I am today, you've got to realize that you can't just start now and next year be where I am, like you might be even further than me, who knows, that's just how things go. But the reality is you've got to understand that you might take 15, 20 years to get to where I am or to where you want to be. This thing requires the passion first, so that allows you to get through that 10, 15, 20 years to be able to then make it a living and actually start to kind of feel comfortable and make money from it kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Well, very well said both of you. I talked a little bit about this with Simone because I questioned him on his intent to. For those that don't know, we don't know when we're going to release each episode. You know for his course and his free access to his Ruse formula and you know the catch line is how to make viral videos. It's like, well, for me that's the wrong intent. We shouldn't be teaching people how to make viral videos. We should be teaching people how to make cool content and then the strategy, insights and luck go into how to get those that cool content viral. It's just kind of a clickbait tagline, 100%, but unfortunately that's kind of the world we live in and I'm interested to hear. I totally agree with both of you, absolutely.
Speaker 2:The problem is people sometimes may have the wrong intent, you know, because they want to be, they want to be famous, don't realize that being famous on social media doesn't fucking mean anything and being famous generally doesn't mean anything. But they want to be known, they want to get likes, they want to just love me, love me, love me, love me, right? Yeah, whereas that is great, that should come off the back of you putting in the fucking hard, hard yards for so long. Crafting a craft, crafting a skill, figuring out what you like, figuring what you get at. Like you said, there's going to be the odd real if you're lucky, goes viral. But you know the content creators that get lucky reels and don't last because they haven't got the authenticity or genuine kind of foundation 100%, I think.
Speaker 3:I do think that fame is always the wrong mindset. I mean, at the end of the day, I wouldn't describe us as famous in any way. We have. No, I think you're famous. No, not at all. There's obviously famous a very, very broad spectrum. Being known is not why you should be getting into it.
Speaker 2:Tom Cruise is famous.
Speaker 3:Exactly, he's known to everyone in the world. Full stop period. He's famous. But anyway, fame, even on Tom Cruise level, should not be the dream. That said, I don't think like the concept of making good money from this or even wanting to have your content be viral is a negative thing. I don't think it's a bad thing. If that's your intention, that's fine. I'm sure that throughout that you'll learn to look at the right things from it.
Speaker 3:I think, because at the end of the day, nowadays I think virality is becoming an art form in itself. There are people that are learning how to hack the viral code on the internet, because nowadays, art has always been a way of figuring out our surroundings and finding a way for a creative to then give Taking surroundings and then giving something to the population of the world and I find often that as we move through different stages of evolution now we're moving into technology Technology is becoming that environment that we can then throw our art and our perspective on, and I think virality, in a sense, is a form of art. Nowadays, social media is the canvas that we all use to share our artwork. So in a sense, I think actually talking about Simone's work I think the concept of the virality tagline actually, despite it becoming a tagline and being a good clickbait, which is great and awesome for his virality in that sense, is actually also, in a way, an art form as well. I am obviously as well as Mike and things like that.
Speaker 3:Despite us focusing on the art form because that's what we when I say the art form, I mean photography and filmmaking, because that's why we're in it I'm still now actively thinking about ways that I can hack the viral code, because that's like, in essence, how we now need to navigate this creative artistic world. Nowadays. It's not having. I don't know Really, I don't even know how it works when back in the painting days, but that's, you know what I mean. Do you get an idea Back then painting?
Speaker 3:is like I've put my painting up on a wall and people see it and then they might re-exhibition it. Exactly, whereas nowadays it's it's the social media world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but there's a difference between making a piece of art and posting it and hoping that you know maybe a thousand people like it maybe a million people like it right.
Speaker 2:There's a difference between that and creating it purely for the the best possible scenario for it to go viral, because then all we're doing is we're playing into the machine of virality, which is not helping any kind of human race at all, because all it's doing is exacerbating the need for phones and social media, which by anyone's kind of you know assessment is generally not a good thing. So we have I believe we have a responsibility to not that needs to be an element of what we do because, like you said, for us, as artists, to make a living and pay rent and we need to be able to navigate these systems and these ever, ever changing machines and algorithms, but for that to be at the forefront of what you're doing or what you're teaching or what you're, why you're making something.
Speaker 2:I believe we have an ethical responsibility to not make it that to make sure that people are not getting into this environment just to be a content creator, just to get likes, just to get viral hits, because it doesn't help anyone Like. If you're going into it with the opposite intent but realize that there is an important mechanism behind all this that you have to pay attention to in order to succeed in whatever you're trying to do, then for me that's great, because it's kind of a tool.
Speaker 2:It's more of a tool than it is like a goal, and that's how I think. But it's extremely overwhelming. It's extremely complicated, especially for new people coming into the into the world of photography and filmmaking. It's like it's so easy to get caught up and you know I'm talking like I'm perfect. I fucking put a lot of attention into social media because it is important, but I just I get concerned with with beginners, novices, newbies coming into the space and just being like. I want to be like Mike. I want to be. I want to be like Mike. I did that last time. I want to be like Luke, right, I want to have these incredible. Just trying to think of a Luke song. I want to be, yeah, whatever. I want to be like you guys, right, in terms of I want to have the following I want to have the hits. I want to have the likes. I want to love me, love me, love me. If that's your intent, I just don't think that's good for anyone, especially for an individual. So, yeah, rant over.
Speaker 3:I do agree. I do agree. I think it's important for me to clarify what I was speaking about before. Again, I wanted to box the fame side of things because I do think that the want and the need for like, validation is a dangerous world and that's your social media has become that. It's super difficult, like I feel it the same, like I'll some days we'll get 10,000 likes and be super happy, and some days I'll get 2,000 and I'll be like, ah, and it's even though you know that actually that's maybe nothing to do with your content.
Speaker 3:I mean yes and no because I have learned nowadays there's usually some form of correlation, whether that be the correlation between my work or the correlation to when I posted it or, for example, the specific form of content. It might be, for example, like my audience and I know social media have very specific contrast like, or saturation, like or things like that. Right, you know, that's how, a lot of the time I've progressed my editing style into, despite doing it for me, I've learned what people are looking for on social media and things like that Interesting.
Speaker 2:So yeah, but you've adjusted your style based on getting more like that's an interesting point.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was clear. He just said yes and no. I did just say that yes In the sense that because I guess I'm looking in a way in this social media world and this is the beauty for me of like finding different ways of navigating the creative space. For example, nowadays my passion has become photography again, because videos become my work, because that's where most of my money comes from. That said, I'm still really passionate about creating the videos, but it's fun, isn't it? It is really fun, but the you know, through being a creative, obviously I need to be true to my artistic self, but at the same time, I need to make money, I need to make a living from this. So there's a way that you need to combine those two things you do need to think about, because nowadays, the platform to grow and to be, to get your work seen and therefore make money, is social media. So I know, I think it's important for that not to be the specific reason why you're getting into this, but then again, I do think it's important that you really learn how to make the most of social media and really grow from it. And so then, yes, therefore, I have, through my creative way, found a way to combine what I know people are looking for with what I want to release.
Speaker 3:I'm not saying that it's specifically creating for the audience but in a way, as artists, I think we're finding ways for or, I guess, finding the pocket of social media or the population that, like the work that we do and through that I've, through social media, I found the right pocket. But I also do think that through the years of me doing this, I've also learned how to gamify the different pockets of social media and how to do that, and I think we both have learned that in a sense, and I know that each different social media and each different section of social media, there are different games that you can play to help grow your following, whether that be on Instagram, whether that be on YouTube, whether that be on Instagram as a photographer or a dancer or a cook. There are different ways to gamify this space to then grow. Oh God, I can go forever.
Speaker 2:If an app like Instagram and I'll just both of you this question if an app like Instagram I don't want to talk about TikTok, I hate it, let's talk about Instagram. If Instagram hit follows and likes, like just didn't exist, right. Follows and likes and comments, right, you just post and you're like fuck, you know, you know what you get. But it's not public. For brands to see your engagement and your exposure. They have to go through a pitch process, right? So if that existed, would you still put as much time and effort into it?
Speaker 3:The question is would it be as big Like? Unfortunately, I have this feeling that the love for likes and validation is almost what people are on social media for, so like it's a really awesome and interesting question is like, if that disappeared, would it be a thing Like if suddenly Instagram decided out of all of them, which they kind of have a little bit? But I think there's probably a reason why it's still not being an official thing, Because you can remove your likes on Instagram if you wanted to. I think if it just suddenly Instagram said, boom, no more likes, no more comments, all of this stuff, and it was just about posting your art form, maybe there's comments, but then again, that's another form of validation, so it wouldn't work. Exactly so it wouldn't work. I just don't know if it would be.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it would be a thing, but would you post? As much Question was would you post?
Speaker 3:Well, I would want to post, but then again what I'm really curious to hear your perspective.
Speaker 1:So I'll give mine, and then you, I gotta go in a minute.
Speaker 3:Oh, have you, okay, I suppose to leave it.
Speaker 1:Will you?
Speaker 3:give your perspective, and then I'll give mine.
Speaker 1:Um, I think no is the answer. You wouldn't, because it's. It's a direct correlation to for me, it's a direct correlation to work, and so I know the more that I post and the more that I show that I can shoot and that I can do, the more jobs I know will come in. So if that was to change and maybe suddenly it's been a website, maybe I would update my website every two weeks because I'd suddenly be like okay, this is what I'm doing now. This is the newest thing I've shot. This is the newest thing I'm doing. It's the newest country I've been to. This is the newest style of I've tried. I look at it as a way of like showcasing what I'm doing and how I can be at the top of a brand's list of like okay, cool, right, this looks cool. We'd like to use him. Um, so no, is that? I wouldn't.
Speaker 2:Okay, hypothetically, if brands had access to that information, but it wasn't public information, then yeah, I would.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because that's that's effectively how I make money and therefore, and I enjoy what I do. So it's a direct thing to go hand in hand. Where I love what I do, it's awesome. I can make money from it, so putting him together doesn't really make a difference. I think that's why.
Speaker 2:YouTube is so good? Yeah, because it's kind of a bit of both. Obviously, you see views and but it's not as kind of central to the post, right? First of all, it's more like a search engine than anything else. I'll watch a video if it's if it's you know a guy that's got 500 subscribers, but it's telling me what I want, right. So I think that's where YouTube has fucking nailed it, because it gives a bit of everything to everyone, and they were all their creators.
Speaker 1:So they were all as a creator for putting your content on. And again back to that initial conversation that we had. You know, I think for longevity as well, like I'm looking to not only just post, you know, a post on Instagram, then it's gone within 24 hours and you know.
Speaker 1:I've got to think about the next thing I can do. I want to have a longer form where I'm taking the audience on this cool adventure to go and choose something new for me and also chat to a creator that knows what they're doing, and then that will live there for a much longer period of time and not got to be gone within 24 hours.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then think of the next thing that I need to do.
Speaker 2:So yeah, well, I know you're jumping more into YouTube, so hopefully good luck with that. Hopefully it looked fun. You should definitely do more YouTube. I don't know why you're so focused it's got a few.
Speaker 1:Well, he says that for the last two years.
Speaker 3:Well, I've got a vlog coming out in the next few days.
Speaker 2:Once a year Wherever?
Speaker 1:the camera is Now. He's got two videos ready to go.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, the last few years has been really tough, but that is my focus. Youtube is this year my focus because video has been for a really long time. I think it's even for photographers that solely take photos. Youtube kind of is that space.
Speaker 2:So, yes, and yeah, I just want to kind of touch on what you're saying about your photos and kind of finding out what your audience kind of likes. Whatever they like and whatever you post is fucking amazing, so just keep doing it. Have you been sacked from Adobe yet?
Speaker 3:Because, yes, I have oh that's funny Well it's a lot.
Speaker 1:So you're sacked. The one word that you only get to be an ambassador for Lightroom 3. Well, you can explain. Sorry, this is all you will.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so was it. Last year I was officially a Lightroom, ambassador. Yeah, just, I think it was just just.
Speaker 3:You just can't really say too much. Yes, so just the Lightroom ambassador. It was one of the most incredible experiences. It was so fun because I've been using Lightroom for, I mean, 12 years since I started photography. I was very, very grateful for it. As Mike just said, it's a year long thing. So Lightroom are, I think, so just come to an end now. Just come to an end, exactly, literally just come to an end. And I'm very grateful for that because I think not only for me, it's been this really nice experience that I can then kind of look back on, but also, I think, to give other people the opportunity. Like it's I now have a bunch of friends that are reaching out to me being like, oh, I've been reached out to by Lightroom to be a new ambassador for this year of 2024. And it's super cool, like giving new people consistently, every single year, the opportunity to have the same thing and have the support that I got from Lightroom. I think is is massive. So it's a shame, sad, but but yeah, we've moved on.
Speaker 2:Makes it almost more special that it's kind of one year done. Yeah, yeah, it's fantastic, All right guys. Well, look, I've taken up. You need to go. You've only just turned up, but should fuck off. Anyway, I'm going to. I'm going to end with one question written by a previous guest. I know him, Simone, yes, and the question is I'm going to start with Mike first. What's one piece of advice that you would give your 18 year old self?
Speaker 1:My 18 year old self. I guess I was in a very different position with finances, and what I was doing at the time was obviously trying to be a para athlete. So, but I think the one thing I would say is just have confidence in yourself, because it wasn't until the last couple of years that I actually had confidence in myself, even though I had so much success through that. I'm 36. So you know, I was a para athlete for 10 years, from 23 to 33, and then was doing content from around 2016 and started professionally, like making decent money from it in 2019, I guess, was when it was like, oh, actually this could be a full time thing. And I think early on for years, I just even though I was doing what I loved and was doing hockey, and then even early days of a photographer, and ever I never like believed in myself. So I think, just something simple I believe in it. You got it.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. That is really good. You can't take the same answer.
Speaker 3:I don't have the same answer, but that was great. I like that one. I also would think the same thing, and confidence is very important. I think there are so many different advice points that I'd probably get my 18 year old self at this point, but I think one of the best ones that I can think of off the top of my head is learn and learn to apply. So learning is obviously very important, but if you just consistently learn, then you're just learning and you don't have anything to do with it. Then you've got to then learn how to apply, whether that be you know, through learning how to be a photographer and then learning how to apply photography to then make some form of success from it.
Speaker 3:I think learning to apply is really important. So for me, it's like in that point in my life I'm a big, I've always loved learning, but I spent a lot of time just learning and just like consistently being like, yes, I mean, I'm reading and I'm listening to podcasts, I'm doing all this stuff. It's great, but you've got to apply yourself to actually succeed in anything. So I think the biggest thing is to learn, but that realize that learning just to learn doesn't actually do anything. You've got to apply yourself and apply what you're learning to actually succeed in it. So I think, learn and learn to apply.
Speaker 1:Why is words?
Speaker 2:Integrating that knowledge is the difficult bit. Yeah, big time Very good, anything else. I know we've kind of compressed. Certainly our chat kind of got cut.
Speaker 3:I mean Luke, come on, man, we will have another conversation, I'm sure.
Speaker 1:Nice to join you.
Speaker 2:Anything else you want to say mention? No, I think we're good.
Speaker 1:I mean, obviously, if people want to get involved with the community, then you can check out at UKshooters and worldshooters the two big ones that we have, and we'll be promoting one of that. We also have a newsletter which is in the link in both of those bios Socials for both of us. I'm mvisuals on all socials.
Speaker 3:At Watch Luke. If you're looking to get involved in the community and get to know people, that is it. That's that place. If you want to meet people in the creative space mvisuals. Yeah, yeah, I'm mvisuals, but no message. Us, message the community and we, hopefully, if we're in your space, if you're listening from the UK, europe or the US, then we're in your space. If we're not in your space, then I'm sure there's a way we can help find people in your space. So community is super important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that you know for people watching and listening it's you know. You too are probably the two biggest guys when it comes to community. You're always replied to messages. You're always active on DMs. Emails Like you are very approachable, so people can just come up to you and say hi, right, and you know there's thousands of people that will want to do that, so we'll link all that in description and thank you. You know, it's just for saying thanks very much for joining us.
Speaker 1:Thank you for having us. It's been great to see you. Thanks for having us. Yeah, briefly.
Speaker 3:It's been good to be back. Thanks for having us.
Speaker 2:Bye.