Framing the Narrative of Culture and Conservation - Trevor Cole, E043

In this episode of The MOOD Podcast, I talked with Irish-born photographer Trevor Cole, exploring the dynamic interplay of imagery and narrative culture, as we try to deconstruct the current globalised narratives of human connection. With his expertise in geography, Trevor adeptly captures the fading customs and diverse environments shaping our global heritage. Through his lens, we become more aware of indigenous populations under threat and environments that are disappearing, all the while discovering  rays of hope in conservation successes and the potential of eco-friendly tourism.

We also discussed on an intriguing exploration of his artistic essence, uncovering his distinctive style characterised by specific colour tones and meaningful encounters, together telling the stories that are hoped to bring awareness and impact to the wider population . Going a little deeper, we discovered how his work not only unveils the allure of distant communities but also provokes profound contemplation on the genuine essence of success and happiness.

Find Trevor's inspirational work across his socials, and please check out his guided tour company, Alternative Destinations...
Instagram: @trevcole
Website: trevcole.1x.com,  alternativevisions.co.uk

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

This is quite depressing.

Speaker 2: 0:02

If you were talking to that 18-year-old self now and you kind of had to explain the current situation of our species and specifically the role of photography within it, what would you tell him?

Speaker 1: 0:14

Wow, Traditions are disappearing. Extreme wealth is causing extreme damage.

Speaker 2: 0:23

How can photography kind of shape cultural understanding.

Speaker 1: 0:27

There are people living in ways we probably don't understand, and yet we sit and complain about everything.

Speaker 2: 0:37

How do you create a context and narrative within one of your frames or within kind of a set of images?

Speaker 1: 0:44

I want to capture life that connect and not disconnect. Capturing those images because they are going to be gone tomorrow.

Speaker 2: 0:53

What is more important the encounter or the photograph and why.

Speaker 1: 0:58

Wow, it's not such an easy question to answer. What advice can you give, I would have to say, to answer.

Speaker 2: 1:04

What advice can you give? I would have to say Welcome to another episode of the Mood Podcast. I'm Matt Jacob. Okay, so some interesting feedback on the last few episodes I did with Harry Pope and Pete Aerts, and I'll address some of these in an upcoming Moments of Mood episode. But until then, I bring you a wonderful photographer and inspiring human, trevor Cole.

Speaker 2: 1:29

Trevor is an Irish-born photographer who has traveled across the world and lived in many different other countries. In addition, as an ex-geography teacher, he brings a plethora of real-life experiences and qualified insights into the worlds of others, especially those that he photographs. So we discussed a lot about his current take on the world and the people within it, most noticeably the landscapes and interactions between them, in the light of a world that is constantly in transition, nowadays, faster than ever. We touched on his goals and the place of photography and the role of it within the bigger picture and the power of it to make an impact or, even more idealistic, to make a real change. We chatted about many other things as well, such as his photo tours and plans for the future and visions for tomorrow. So please sit back and enjoy this fascinating conversation with Trevor Cole. Trevor Cole, welcome to the Moot Podcast. It's great to have you again, I guess.

Speaker 1: 2:44

Thank you very much, Matt.

Speaker 2: 2:45

I wanted to start with a way that our audience can get to know you a little bit and just to, I guess, break the ice and ask you a very blunt question what do you do?

Speaker 1: 2:59

and why do you do it? Well, let's make that a little bit historical. I was born here in Ireland and I live here in Ireland, but I, at an early age, went to university here, trained, in a nutshell, to be a geography teacher, taught for a few years in the UK, then taught internationally for 24 years and, to be honest, I absolutely loved teaching and the geography I suppose in a way led me to travel and led me to photograph, because I wanted to capture life out there, landscapes out there, street scenes out there. So I'm the geographer photographer. So that's really me in essence.

Speaker 2: 3:59

Very cool. Explain a little bit more about how I guess you got into it. But why specifically the style of photography that you do and I guess we don't have to kind of pigeonhole that in terms of portraiture or landscape or a bit of both but in terms of the human interest stories that you photograph, why are they so appealing to you and why did you start to have that interest in them?

Speaker 1: 4:23

I think when you travel, you know, did you start to have that interest in them? I think when you travel, you know, you come to realize maybe specifically because I'm a geographer that people are inextricably connected to the landscapes, the environments, the biospheres in which they live. So for me it was truly interesting to look at people and see how they are, especially traditionally, and how that differs from country to country, from region to region within countries. If I take one of my favorite countries, ethiopia, there are 86 different ethnic groups and each one, I think, is a reflection of the environments in which they live, and that fascinates me. And if you go to a country as diverse as India, the same thing applies, you know, if you go to remote areas. There are tribal or indigenous peoples who, I think you know, have acquired their own very specific traits and traditions just because of the environment in which they live.

Speaker 1: 5:40

Living in Ireland, I've always enjoyed photographing landscapes and I've taken that to Canada, to Iceland, to Scotland, and I would always capture a landscape no matter where. But it's those landscapes and those environments that really, I think are reflected in the people that exist there, and it makes me very, very sad to see that as I get older, when I first started taking photographs, there was much more diversity in the human species photographs. There was much more diversity in the human species. Now, homogenization, westernization and even tribal people in remote areas are really, really adopting these fake chinese clothes that are based on western fashion uh, trends so when you talk about the, I mean I totally agree with you when it comes to diversity, and even in my you know last 10 years I've seen it throughout my travels as well that just the general homogenization and modernization and the Western influence it's having everywhere where you know it's globalization, essentially is the core of all of this.

Speaker 2: 7:14

How long ago are we talking, then? You don't want to give away your age, but when did you pick up that camera? And so since when have you noticed this lack of diversity? And we're going to get on to kind of the impacts of that speed later, but what kind of period are we looking at in that observation?

Speaker 1: 7:33

I won't mention the geological timescale, but it's quite a while ago. I, at the age of 18, took off with eight or ten of my friends from the city of Derry in a minibus and we drove all the way to Morocco, through Algeria, tunisia and back up again through Italy, and I didn't have a decent camera and it was on that trip. I realized, ah, this is ridiculous. I want to capture some of these incredible people in landscapes. So when I got back this would be late 1970s I told my parents I need a camera, please. So they bought me my first SLR, which was actually quite an unusual SLR, and my daughter still has it my daughter, danny, because she likes to photograph too and it's an old Rolleiflex SLR. And after that I never really looked back. I had that camera with me from my late teens until I changed to other other cameras, other camera gear, and you know, x years later I'm I'm still carrying my camera and taking photographs.

Speaker 2: 9:05

Nice, nice, we're going to talk a little bit about, I guess, the environment. You've talked about it a lot, even in the last few minutes, and it means so much to you when it comes to nature versus human nature and landscapes, with humans trying to evolve and live within those landscapes. I want to kind of ask you a question and frame it a little bit differently. If you were talking to that 18-year-old self, now that you just talked about, and you kind of had to explain the current situation of our species and specifically the role of photography within it, what would you tell him? Wow, other than we're fucked um, do you know it?

Speaker 1: 9:59

it's, it's. It's funny really. You know, because when I first started teaching at the age of 22, I used to say you know, these rainforests, even then, are going quickly. The coral reefs are being destroyed, and this was a long time ago when I started teaching, ago, when I started teaching and I had no idea just how fast this change was happening. Even then, the ice caps were under threat, the levels of pollution, the ocean's fish stocks, I, I, I'm not sure I would have believed at the age of 18, 19, 20, when I was studying geography at university, in environmental science, that things could have changed so rapidly. Um, and it's not.

Speaker 1: 11:01

It's not just know the rainforest or the reefs or the pollution levels. People, languages are becoming extinct, traditions are disappearing and you know, there are lots of unwritten languages out there that are still spoken by tinier and tinier groups, that are still spoken by tinier and tinier groups. And I'm not sure the 18, 20, 22, even 25-year-old me could have seen what is happening now. And the current conflict in this earth, this capitalism, it just, it just goes against my grain because people can live extremely well, but this, these huge disparities in wealth, the haves and the have-nots. I used to call it in geography the. The minority world have 80% of the Earth's resources to use, and the majority world, the vast majority of people, really have very, very little, and that's not good. It doesn't sound very hopeful.

Speaker 2: 12:21

But where does the role, where does our role come into this? If we even have one? Or if I were to rephrase that, how can photography kind of shape cultural understanding and promote empathy or at least education and empathy on, on that global scale?

Speaker 1: 12:41

Well, I, I think, um, um, I started to use my photography in education, in my geography classes to explain the impact of tourism, for example, on indigenous people. Um, globalization, so I, I think education has a huge role to play. But photographs photographs can be used. I said they can be used really negatively, photographs, but they can be used really positively to, for example, promote the fact that there are many people who are endangered, who are living on the edge, and they're often the guardians of the environment.

Speaker 1: 13:27

I used to show my students a video on a little bit of India called Ladakh in the Himalayas, and the video was called Ancient Futures, and what they were really saying is we need to. What they were really saying is we need to adapt and adopt some of the ways of life from the past and use them again today. I always say here in Ireland, we shouldn't be applying fertilizers the way we do, we shouldn't be applying pesticides, we should be rotating crops. It's a small population, we should be growing organically. But photography can capture the elements of life in many ways that are traditional, to encourage people to see that people living at these levels, living in these places, are genuinely, despite looking poor, they're not poor, they're rich in many ways because they're utilizing their environment effectively, and we've all got a lesson to learn from that.

Speaker 1: 14:42

Eight billion people in one planet and when I've started teaching it was three billion. That that's shocking to me. And that means people are expanding in to the areas which should be protected you know, the, the forests, the wildlife. It's being decimated at unprecedented rates. The Arctic ice sheets are retreating so rapidly it could change the whole sort of circulation of the deep ocean currents and really those type of impacts are going to be huge.

Speaker 1: 15:26

I did a talk for travel photographer of the year and, uh, there was a nice plug. Oh yeah, david attenborough's photographer was there talking and, um, he was using photography of the Arctic and I sat there open-mouthed showing how quickly the Arctic sea ice is disappearing. His name is Doug Allen and he's been David Attenborough's photographer for a long time, or videographer, and I was sitting there thinking, wow, we are destroying our own life, so or so. I think photography really has a very important role to play, whether it be environmental or or or people you know, and, and the diversity that we have on this planet is fantastic. So capturing those images, because they are going to be gone tomorrow? Um, they're disappearing. Many of these people are just being I don't acculturated is a good word absorbed into mainstream Western homogenous culture.

Speaker 2: 16:55

Yeah, I think we see the byproduct of all of that as well through just our daily lives. And we're not going to talk about social media on this episode, because I've talked about it so much and I'm getting people just telling me to shut the hell up, and I get it. But for me that's a byproduct of dilution, of dumbing down, of homogenization, of blandness, of just banal societies. Right, and this is why there's even more curiosity for the likes of you and me to go and see those cultures, those indigenous populations that are, that are still living some kind of different and authentic and real lives, that have kind of these impenetrable connections with their environment and their land. And it's just seems so rare these days.

Speaker 2: 17:49

But with photography, yes, we're able to promote awareness, we're able to expose these issues. Excuse the pun, but I still see a huge chasm between those kind of stories well, a, doing those stories justice and doing them. Well, we know the, the, that kind of western effect, and the, the commercialization comes back on us. Sometimes it hits us in the face because you go on these workshops, you go on tours, you go to these places and these people have seen cameras before. Or, even worse, these people on workshops, just shove cameras in people's faces or try and manipulate these, these people, these indigenous people or these these special humans around right, and it just kind of feels it's just that ick factor that humans are just the worst and we're not helping ourselves.

Speaker 2: 18:49

Where photography kind of fits in, I think, is just this speck on the horizon, and I get concerned so much with with having an impact, or at least trying to have an impact. We can't always have an impact, but having the intent to try and make an impact, but then you just get nothing back, it seems. Why do people not care about this? And we're talking about capitalism, of course, and money and greed and all of that of course comes into it, but still, you know, the the majority of the world should care about this stuff, but they don't. Why?

Speaker 1: 19:35

that's a really, really good question, and I think if I was the minister for education in somewhere like the uk, or or, or in any Western European or any developed country, I would be changing the way in which kids are taught. The environment, people, biosphere, all of these things are not really taught in a way to make people realize, make children realize that they're essential if we are to continue as a species on this earth. Um, and it really is. For me this is quite depressing really. I think since I was born, at the moment is the worst time the earth is really under threat. There is more conflict, there is more sort of you know, apocalypse now scenarios out there than I ever remember in in my earlier years. Um, and I think it really is an imperative to change the way we're taught, to change, uh, the way the media deal with major issues like this I don't know why they don't see, I think power in governments, corrupt governments, short-sightedness, this, this going for just just extreme wealth, is causing extreme damage.

Speaker 1: 21:22

Um, it's very, very disheartening yeah, uh, it's.

Speaker 2: 21:28

It's actually depressing, um, and that's why photography is a is a escape from that, certainly for for the likes of you and me. But, yeah, let's, let's not go depress all our viewers and listeners, because there's a lot of hope still. There are a lot of just incredible people doing such incredible work. Many people come to mind in this arena. They just don't have as big a voice as someone who is causing so much harm and has nefarious intent with what they do. Unfortunately, that is the world that we do live in and arguably always have lived in, but now it's exacerbated so much with. You mentioned media, both mainstream media and social media, that are just controlled by either conglomerates or billionaires or both, and, um, the main goal is just to make more and um, I totally agree with you in education.

Speaker 2: 22:31

Actually I think education is the key to everything. I think it's the key to some kind of solution to pretty much everything. And I, I always sit here and I wonder why my wife, she's an English teacher and she just tells me these. You know what she has to teach them for a start, but the stories of what else they have to learn and what they get taught in school, none of it matters. Why are people not getting taught about health? Why are children not getting taught about health? Why are children not getting taught about money? Why are children not getting taught about how to live life and how to educate yourself further, how to self-educate? Why are people not getting educated on travel and other cultures and things that actually matter Environment, sustainability? I just don't know why, and I know it's not an easy thing, that we can just turn around, but I don't see it changing anytime soon.

Speaker 2: 23:28

But yeah, I see um many things to be concerned about in terms of, you know, the, the Armageddons that may be around the corner, when it comes to nuclear wars and dictatorships and pandemics. Uh, I, you know, hopefully I can just stay with my little camera and I shoot away, but you know, you and I shoot very similar kind of uh subjects, I guess, and we're kind of at the forefront of watching that those people demise, not in terms of them dying, but their, their way of living becoming less and less, essentially. So, yeah, what threatened is probably a better, much better word. Where's, where's the hope then? Where is the hope? Where is, where is the positive side of this that you see on the front lines? I mean, you're going out there way more than I am, to all of these um places that you do workshops and your own tours, which we're going to talk about in a bit but, on one hand, when you experience kind of the rapid change that you've observed, where do you find solace, where do you find hope?

Speaker 1: 24:39

Well, you know. Coming back to a little bit of what you said there, you know, in education I think one of the scariest things about now is the way in which I know you said not to mention social media but the misinformation. Children need to be taught that a lot of what they're hearing they need to question, because a lot of it isn't true and that's being used massively. Now there is hope, there are people out there and photography can be used. I would actually like to write much more in magazines, but I'm not very good at selling myself in that respect and going out and saying, look, would you be interested in an article on the sustainability and the ways of life of the tribes of Southern Angola, because that sort of visibility does give us all hope. Um, if, if they see real success stories. One of my uh ex-students she's she's, uh, an ethiopian. Well, she's half italian, half ethiopian. She's doing amazing work in africa for conservation, I mean, and against all the odds. You know the human-animal interface and you know occasionally she has complete disasters, especially dealing with politicians and those in power corruption. But there are also success stories. You know where elephant populations are increasing. In some places Poaching is on the decline, but there are just the coast of Thailand.

Speaker 1: 27:09

There was a little island I went to You'll know it extremely well because it's very close to you the Gili Islands, gili Truangan. I went in 1986. There was one shack to stay in. There was one shack to stay in and it was you. You got there on a little just paddle boat, uh, from from the coast of lombok, and it was so good. I went back again in 1987 backpacking and it hadn't changed and I wouldn't go there now because of the impacts that Timor between Timor and West Papua can maybe become examples of how it can be.

Speaker 1: 28:14

I think there's some quite nice resorts in the island of Sumba which are more eco-friendly and I think that's the way to go. That's where the hope lies, is people developing eco-style tourism, and I call my little photo tours eco-photo tours. I only take a few people and we have a little guidelines sheet that I give out to them so that they can be sensitive and understand the differences in the culture. You mentioned intercultural understanding. It's really bad, you know. People do not understand other cultures and I think it's really important, if you travel to, to really learn, read, absorb, listen to local. I always use local guides, um, and you know it's. It's my second university and I think if we could all bring some of that into the classroom, or or or when people travel, to expose them to a little bit of that, it would make a difference absolutely.

Speaker 2: 29:23

Uh, there's a lot I want to unpack there actually, and um, and I want to kind of um, preface this with the fact that we are speaking very generally, um, it's very difficult to obviously talk specifics all the time, but we're kind of, you know, throwing this, this veil over the whole world essentially. So, you know, I know there are, you know, so many different pockets that we can investigate both good and bad. But, generally speaking, um, certainly with travel and you can maybe attest to this when you do your, your tours and your workshops there seems to be this western hubris and this, this arrogance and this, um, I don know, lack of respect. Because of that. We walk into a certain village, in, whether it be Angola, uganda or anywhere sub-Saharan Africa, anywhere, right, a rural, even here in Bali, you find generally, generally speaking, a lot of the tourists or the visitors will just think that they're better than them, and, and they will.

Speaker 2: 30:29

This often comes down to money, right? Well, I have more money than you and therefore I'm better than you, and it, you know, my mom used to say to me all the time money is the root of all evil. Well, I can, I see that and I understand that and it and it's and it kind of it. Really it really produces this type of behavior between humans. It's so fucked up, it's so weird. Now, money can be the source of many good things, of course, but when you go into a room and you immediately assess whether you're better than someone else because they're from, maybe, a poor country or from a poor upbringing, guaranteed they are wealthier than you in so many other ways and guaranteed they're likely happier than you.

Speaker 2: 31:15

So that aside, talking about those areas and you mentioned Sumba Sumba is such a, such a beautiful, beautiful island, but we are seeing more and more development there, we're seeing more tourism there, and so, you know, the cynic in me just thinks well, give it another five to ten years and that's fucked as well. But the hope is in those places that you, that you talked about, in those, those eco tourism agencies, eco tourism uh, hotels or villas or companies that do do things like what you do. And you know it's a cliche, but if everyone did their little part, maybe we wouldn't be sat here having this conversation, spending 30 minutes talking about sustainability. But you talk about sustainability in your photography and you know I'm, I'm really, really interested in this and it's, you know minutes talking about sustainability, but you talk about sustainability in your photography and you know I'm I'm really really interested in this and it's, you know, it is close to my heart as well yeah, I think my photography.

Speaker 1: 32:28

If someone looks at my instagram, um, you know they see people, they see cultures, more so possibly from africa than anywhere else. Because Africa I think this isn't meant to be negative in any way it's still at an earlier stage of its growth and development than, say, southeast Asia or Latin America. So, you know, for me, getting out there and going into a village in a remote part of the Omo Valley or southern Angola, or going to a Garawal festival in Chad or the Mandari cattle camps in South Sudan, it fascinates me because in front of me there are people living in ways we probably don't understand and they live very simply. There's something in geography called an ecological footprint and you know, if you live in london, you, you will, you know your clothes will come from here, your electronics will come from all over the world, whereas these guys are living and everything they've got comes from there. You know their, their sorghum, their, their maize, their, their cattle, everything's there. So they're living. You know if, if we could adopt more models to use local and not global, I think the world would be a a much better place.

Speaker 1: 34:17

But sustainability and photography, I mean it's very, very important to me because I try to emphasize to people that these people are living um. They are living in harmony with their environment. They are despite outside influences and I call it the Chinese T-shirt, which I hate. They are really fine examples of people who live simply and mostly happily. But you're right about this sort of tourist who comes along with. I've got money, you haven't, but you know they have so much more.

Speaker 1: 35:19

You see more smiles on the faces of those in Angola. I mean just wonderful people, and yet we sit and complain about everything and we have. The more I see, the more I realize I am so privileged to have been born where I you know, here in Ireland, to have been brought up in the way I've been brought up, to have been brought up in the way I've been brought up, and more of us need to see how the other 80% of the world's population, 90% of the world's population, live, to understand just how privileged we are. So you know, that's why, for me, doing something with an eco-photo focus actually is incredibly important, because you're bringing back a story which the rest of the world can benefit from. But it's, how do you get it out there? I would love to go around schools teaching a little bit about people that they really don't see photographs of unless they're into reading Geographical Magazine or National Geographic, and most kids 99.9% don't come into contact with this stuff. Their Instagram is very different to mine.

Speaker 2: 36:52

Oh, let's not talk about Instagram. It is very, very different and I don't know how parents kind of navigate that maze these days. But uh, yeah, I mean speaking of parents and children. I mean I don't know how much of our world in the western world, I should say the developed world is down to overpopulation and you know the the drain on resources that that, especially for a tiny geographical country like the UK, which is completely saturated with people, um, 80 million, 60 million.

Speaker 2: 37:35

Um, I mean it's insane when you think about it. I mean no wonder we can't live a sustainable life. Because I say we, I'm not there anymore, but it it doesn't kind of. It doesn't take too much of a brain to realize that the, the demand is, is way more than the natural supply. And then when you go, like you said, you go to these places and bali, actually, the, you know, although it's in pockets, very, very horribly commercialized, most of it is still just full of incredible people.

Speaker 2: 38:12

I've literally I'm extremely privileged as well. I've been privileged enough to travel many, many different countries. I've never met quite such friendly and happy, genuinely happy people as the local people on the street here who earn a couple of bucks a day. It speaks so much to our arrogance in the developed world and how we define success and wealth. It's completely different to the way these people define success and wealth and that those two things leading to happiness, right, they didn't even they didn't really think about those concepts. They're just happy in there. Yes, of course they would love it if you gave them money or they got more money, but wouldn't we all? But generally speaking, that says so much to spirituality or values and beliefs and so many other things that are just at it's so at odds with the likes of us who go and try and step into the world and spend maybe a week there and think that a they understand it, and be there better than that.

Speaker 2: 39:22

Um, so I, yeah, I, I, I don't know kind of my point really, other than venting, but I think photography has that place certainly in the education sphere. And I know you, you kind of put so much effort and incredible work into your tours and your, your workshops, which is run by your company and alternative vision, and the name is quite appropriate for that, I guess, and you talk there kind of your tagline, at least the, your mission, should we say, is to record those inimitable moments. And you know, first of all, I want you to define what inimitable means, because uh, you know, it's not a word that gets thrown around, um, but for those inimitable moments to empower people to make a positive change, right?

Speaker 2: 40:08

so tell us a little bit more about that your portrait specifically I'm thinking about and and how you go about infusing that mission and fusing those kind of goals into the process and into actually taking those photos capturing inimitable moments today to reflect upon tomorrow.

Speaker 1: 40:27

I don't know where I come up with that, but, uh, for me, um, you know, each moment is, is is just a split second of time, the time when you take the photo, um, so it will never again materialize, but you know, you take that moment with you as a photograph and you reflect upon it. You look at it and I look at photographs from 10 years ago of people that I've seen more recently and I think, whoa, even in 10 years there's been change. So that moment back then becomes really important because it's a reflection of what was and not what is, of what was and not what is, um, and in 30 years time, 40 years time, if, if, if, my, my daughters inherit my photographs, hopefully, you know, they might think, whoa, that's a little bit of history. Those are moments that are worth taking forward to let people know, and I love looking at historical photographs, um, that were taken a century ago of. There's a guy recently I, I know him, I I haven't met him. He's an anthropologist. He visited the Nuba people in Sudan, but he went in from South Sudan Quite a lot of, I thought, risk, but these people hadn't been seen by a Westerner for a very long time and I find that fascinating. But he has this sort of collection of old photographs from years ago and you know I love looking at. I don't know if you've seen Angela Fisher's book. You know Africa Adorned it's an incredible book from the 19,. I think 70s, 80s, maybe even earlier, of of peoples in africa, uh, taken with with slide film or or analog, and I love looking at those because you can see change. So my, my inimitable moments are all about capturing a moment which you know you can reflect upon tomorrow because, um, that particular moment will will never be seen again. Um, so photography does have a role to play.

Speaker 1: 43:20

I you know, last year I took four people to southern Angola and you know I'm not very good at advertising my trips, I only do three or four a year. But southern Angola, I thought, was wow, it was incredibly untouched. The people were wonderful, friendly, open. So you know, we spend a lot of time with them and doing it that way, I think you get better, because you spend time interacting, sitting and not just pointing a camera and walking away. You take them along food, you take them along tobacco, you take them along cooking oil, because there are often droughts in these areas and they love that. There are often droughts in these areas and they love that and it's I think it's really important to do things like that in, uh, what I call a sustainable way. So those are those faces that you see, are a reflection of, hopefully, those interactions. And you know, there was the person we talked about earlier living in Bali, the first one. She came on that tour and absolutely loved it. But those moments do to me matter.

Speaker 2: 45:09

Hi everyone. Before I let you continue with the podcast, just indulge me for a few minutes. I want to briefly talk to you about my new brand, yore. Founded with my business partner and photographic artist, finn Mattson, we are proud to bring you a new artisanal jewellery and specialty coffee brand. Yep, what on earth do they have to do with anything? Well, they're both our passions and they've always been another artistic outlet for me now for over a decade. For those that know me, coffee and jewellery have been my other obsessions since I was young, and I am a qualified SCA coffee specialist. So when I met Finn, some of you might have listened to my podcast with him. When we barely knew each other, our love for art and jewelry had a home, and that home is Yore.

Speaker 2: 45:54

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Speaker 2: 47:49

Yeah, it's difficult. I'm going to come on to your kind of workshops and some tips to get intimate portraits. But I think you've answered it already and it's something that I talk about all the time, especially with portraiture is spend time with the people, especially if you're in a, in a weird and wonderful location, but somewhere where you, you are immersed in the, the culture, the subcultures, and you have the indigenous peoples or whoever you're you're kind of immersing yourself with in and around. You take the time to okay, you're not going to know them like best friends, but you will be able to kind of get a very good glimpse, very quick moment of a glimpse into their lives, and that's what it's all about, and that always comes through in the images, just like it does with yours.

Speaker 2: 48:43

That that for me is, personally, is what is the difference between a just an image and a iconic or an everlasting one? Right, but with you? How do you, you know if you're going to these places? Okay, maybe, maybe I mean you can educate me and maybe not exactly the same place? Maybe the same place because because you know you can't just rock up a new place every time. It's a logistical nightmare with people and you want to know a little bit of what you're getting into. How do you balance those inimitable moments that you talk about that may not happen again, but also going back to the same place with the same people?

Speaker 1: 49:21

I think I mean for me it's really, really important that the agency I use is always going to be based in the country. So if it's Ethiopia, I use an Ethiopian agency. Angola, I use an agency that's based there, agency that's based there. So using I mean the guide that we had in ethiopia strangely he didn't speak english but he spoke eight of the tribal languages and what a difference that makes to go in and have someone who can interact with them, who can make them smile, um, who can ask them to dance and and just enable them to be themselves. That I think making people relax, making them happy, or or they, or they're, they're happy anyway. You know, I mean I, I, the, the kids love to dance and you know as soon as they start dancing they relax, um, or you sit around with them. Then you can take photographs that that really do make a difference. I mean not always, people can be difficult sometimes and you don't get good images. But going in, spending time wandering around, asking the guide what that is, you know.

Speaker 1: 50:55

We stayed in this amazing campsite it was just wild camping and this group of kids came through I can't remember which tribe they belong to, the, the. They might have been over in gamway or something like that, and, and you know, I asked this little guy that was our guide. You know, can I what? Can we photograph them, you know? And they'd probably never been photographed before? And he spent ages chatting to them and sat them down in the bushes and after a while, you know, they completely relaxed and and enjoyed it, enjoyed the moment and, uh, we all had fun. And you know it should be fun, it should be. It's like being in a classroom. I always, I always allowed five minutes of almost every lesson for the students to not talk about geography but to just have a laugh about something you know, to interact to. You know, tell me something that happened in their lives.

Speaker 2: 51:54

You know, getting to know people enables you to shoot in the nicest possible way and the most intimate way, essentially, was that, barriers broken down, right, they and you kind of earn their trust. Then you're going to get those beautiful and intimate portraits. But what if you're? What if you're not a people person, right? What if you're? You know, you have this paradox like well, I enjoy photographing people, but I feel a bit awkward towards them. I'm a bit of an introvert. Do you get people like that on your tours and if so, and kind of in a general educational way, how would you kind of encourage them and what kind of tips can you give them?

Speaker 1: 52:36

Yes, you do. You do get people. Almost in every tour there's someone that is not relaxed and actually finds it quite difficult interacting with people. It's almost like the teacher in the classroom that doesn't really like kids, you know, and can't relate to them. I think in that situation I have to lead by example and I do the relaxing, I get the guide and we, you know. And then, slowly but surely, confidence rises and people become, by the end of the trip, much, much, much better at being in the presence of people who might be a little bit shy initially. And if the photographer is a little bit shy or a little bit reticent, then you know, the tribe's girl or tribe's boy recognizes that, you know, and you have to break down those barriers and make people relax, and the photographer has to be relaxed too. And, and you know, smiles go a long way and and give people confidence, a joke, a laugh, you know if they dance, if you, if you spend two seconds making an absolute mess of their dance moves in front of them, the whole.

Speaker 1: 54:13

My, my wife, suzy in in uh, namibia. We went to namibia. I, I actually won the most incredible trip to Namibia through a photograph. But she started, I don't know a conversation them and six or seven of these women in fits of laughter. You know, and we went back to that village several times. They were so relaxed, they loved having us there and it was just the two of us. You know, it was a really special experience and everybody can do that. You know, it's like the little kid in the classroom who has no confidence in his ability to learn maths or history or retain facts. You encourage, you inspire, you actually get people to um, interact interesting into, yeah, interacting.

Speaker 2: 55:30

I mean it sounds easy, but you know it's I, I know in reality it's not, especially if you have some people who are, who are difficult, but difficult in the nicest sense, not difficult in terms of you know, being an asshole just difficult, like they find the whole thing, some of those as well yeah, okay, yeah, there are a lot of those, a lot of those.

Speaker 2: 55:49

What is, what is a? What does a tour look like for you? Like if I, if I'm looking at coming in one of your tours I actually we've, I know we've talked about a few times I, I really want to come. One of your cameras just time, he hasn't quite worked out, but what is um, what does it look like? What? How describe one of your tours for me, sell it for me um, well, all right, all right.

Speaker 1: 56:09

The next one I'm doing is september to angola again, and this this, first of all, the agency we use. I think they're quite incredible. I won't mention them on here because they're really, really, really, really good. They have great vehicles, they have an amazing understanding of the people, they treat them with immense respect and they told us that the old names of of the tribes are no longer applicable. We call them by the names they want to be called by, which I thought was fantastic.

Speaker 1: 56:54

He takes us um to villages that have rarely been visited. You know, they've seen a few people, obviously because they go to the markets, etc. But we asked to get to the villages and he goes exploring to two villages that he hasn't seen before and then brings us there and it's fantastic. You sit down. Last, last year, we we came across an Ovahimba ceremony where someone was ill and they were killing the cow and all the Himba girls were on their hands and knees, crawling towards a little sort of sacrificial type thing, and I thought, wow, this is absolutely amazing and there are always little things like that that happen on trips that just come out of the blue.

Speaker 1: 57:49

The landscapes you went through were incredibly diverse and I've added two days this year to drive along the beautiful, beautiful, beautiful coastline where the dunes meet the sea in Angola, and we take a boat out to a little island which has a ghost town on it and it's just incredible. Now, that's not tribal-focused those two days, but it gives people a real feel for not just the people but for the skeleton coast of Angola, not the skeleton coast of Namibia, but it's the same. So that's going to be, I think, pretty special. And, um, again, I only take small numbers, maximum of six people, sometimes seven. Um, I'm thinking of taking a young videographer from here and subsidizing him this year. He, he's really good with drones and video and I don't ever do video and I could probably do with somebody uh, shooting a little bit of video for me and and, and I said, if he comes and he's subsidized, then, um, the guy that trevor, you're getting sucked in.

Speaker 2: 59:19

You're getting sucked into the video world. You're going to do Korean reels next.

Speaker 1: 59:24

No, that's why I'm bringing someone else to do them for me.

Speaker 2: 59:32

So, with this tour and a couple of weeks, long how much time do you get to spend with the same set of people or in the same village? How much time do you know that spend with you know the same set of people or or in the same village? And how much time do you know that we talked about earlier getting to just spending time with them rather than kind of a fleeting morning or quick night somewhere is. Do you kind of make that a focus as well?

Speaker 1: 59:57

yeah, I mean, I, I think it's really important not to, um, stop, shoot and go. Um, I think it's really important not to stop, shoot and go. I think sometimes you do do that, but in general we'll get up at dawn, go to the village, often camp very close to the villages or right beside them, and if we don't go to them, I don't know how they do it, but they seem to find out. We're there and the next thing the village is descending upon the camp, uh, which is fantastic.

Speaker 1: 1:00:35

So, to give you an example, last year we were setting up camp and some of the uh thing, it was the ovaco valley tribe and it was the ovaco valley and the women have these amazing headdresses, you know, fabric and colorful clothes and they're bare-breasted and and you know that's just how they are. And they all came down and they relaxed and they watched us setting up camp. So they were sitting around on trees and stuff and I said to, to raul, the, the guy you know, can we shoot, you know, and he said yeah, of course. So you know, we, these people were there for a couple of hours just enjoying, you know, and you could take pick two or three of them and ask them to sit here and they loved it, you know, and and they're not that used to it, so that makes it really special yeah, kind of uh, unique and original right yeah, yeah, I mean it, it it's an amazing, yeah, maybe I'll um, maybe I'll, jump on that one, although, uh, I'm sure it's way out of my budget, trevor.

Speaker 1: 1:01:44

You can, you know, for someone as impoverished as you, Matt I can make a special deal.

Speaker 2: 1:01:51

How do you, you know, kind of the last education topic, how do you this comes up all the time and I get a little bit tired of the word story but how do you create a context and narrative within one of your frames or within kind of a set of images or a series? Do you, you know, do you have any kind of like go-to methods, or do you feel it's a little bit more organic, having, you know, been with a camera for so many years?

Speaker 1: 1:02:19

I think it's quite organic. Yeah, I mean, but I when I when I'm traveling, like to angola, I had four people on the tour and every day I asked um, the guides questions, and I wrote everything down so I could relate back my notes to the images I took on that particular day. And on top of that I gave my notes to all the participants so they had everything I wrote about Angola and the names of all the tribes and where we were geographically, and I even put in my own opinions and views on sustainability and all sorts of little things. And I said don't mind that, those are just my viewpoints. And you know the thanks I got for doing that at the end, for actually creating notes for them so they could then connect their photographs to it. So the story, I think, in many ways is there in the photograph, but I think the story always has to be enhanced with a little bit of factual information to really make the photo come alive.

Speaker 2: 1:03:48

Yeah, I think that's why I have a problem with the word story. I think to create a story within one still image is impossible. It doesn't exist. You can create context and meaning and kind of environment if you include environment and so parts of stories, parts of narratives, but you do need to couple it with maybe some some copy. You know we couple it with more images that maybe include a scene as well as a group of people and then more of an intimate portrait or something like that.

Speaker 2: 1:04:23

Uh, so yeah, totally, totally think like that. Why do people? Why do people go with you on these tours? And there's a weird question and maybe a kind of a difficult one for you to be humble and think about that, but you know it's, it's a very many photographers don't quite know the answer to the question. Maybe you know the question is why do people? A very many photographers don't quite know the answer to the question of. Maybe you know the question is why do people follow you? Or why do you have such a big audience and all of those kind of pertain to you? But you know all of that. Why do people? Why do you think people buy your tours? Why do you think people follow you on social media? Why do you think you win competitions and get notable mentions? You know what? What is it about you and your work that you think is popular with a certain kind of cohort?

Speaker 1: 1:05:07

of people? It's not such an easy question to answer. I think over time I've developed my own style as a photographer. Certainly there are people who will say that's a Trevor Cole photograph and you know'm I'm I'm quite humble about my images in the sense that I think I like it, but it's only when other people mention, you know, on social media or wherever else trevor that's a really good image. Or when I do enter a competition and you know I win something sometimes, and sometimes you know it's as if it doesn't get seen at all. Um, I think I'm not.

Speaker 1: 1:05:53

As I said, I'm not very good at advertising myself. I wish it was much better at promoting myself and I wish I had a larger photo tour following. But those that do come, I think, spread the word and I think for me, I take time to help people with their photography. So you know I will help people with their aperture, with their metering, with their ISO, with their composition, whereas I know some photo tours and photo tour leaders just take people to the spot and let them get on with it. And then some people want to just get on with it because they're very, very confident and know what they're doing, and they've been to many tribal groups before, but usually I have two or three people on each trip who want a little bit of help and even at the end, if we've got electricity, if they've got a laptop, I will show people how I edit my photographs.

Speaker 1: 1:06:59

I'm not shy about keeping the way I do it a secret. I try and tell people this is what I do and I really. My editing is so incredibly simple. I don't use Photoshop. Simple, I don't use Photoshop, I just use Lightroom and Neek software and literally, if I can't edit a photo in two minutes or three minutes or five minutes max, then I think, okay, it's a reject. I try and get it all in the camera, as much as possible in the camera. Um, so, being relaxed, having a sense of humor, having a good laugh with people uh, word of mouth is probably the best way of getting people to uh, come along on tour.

Speaker 2: 1:07:57

Yeah, so I take from that basically your teaching skills is the biggest value. I mean, obviously your photography is amazing in itself, but I think by the sounds of it and I've yet to experience it but the teaching, the way you can give back and obviously the way you approach people with those techniques or with storytelling or whatever it might be that they're having an issue with, how was that style and the voice that you have with the images, how was that shaped? Did you kind of have a deliberate and conscious decision where I got all my photos to look like this, whether you're thinking about it in camera or whether you think about it on the computer? How did you shape that style? Cause it is an important um well, I mean, many people believe it's important to to have your own style. I think it's even more important to have a voice, but you know, certainly a cohesive style or cohesive look, whatever that might be, and it's difficult for many people to to really figure that out. So how did you figure that out?

Speaker 1: 1:09:06

Well, I mean. I mean, I think if I look back 10 years at my photographs, my photography has changed a lot. The way in which I edit has changed a lot. I try now to push myself each time, each year, to developing different ways of photographing.

Speaker 1: 1:09:29

I used to be really well, I know, I used to take a lot of landscapes, and still will locally, but I used to be more the portrait, the face, the tight image. Now I also think it's really important to have the context. The village life in the village and going to the Mandari cattle camps in South Sudan really blew my mind as far as that sort of thing, because you were more often than not looking at the big scene and I think it's really important. I think you mentioned it earlier. You know, a face is one thing, but a face along with a village hut with a group of people makes a difference. So I would have to say my photographic style, my particular way of of editing, of looking at things, has changed over time. Um, but about four or five years ago I started to do what a lot of people people weren't doing and instead of saturating my images, I started to desaturate and try to make the skin tones. The really bright clothes they wear a little bit more subdued. So if someone's wearing really bright red or bright blue, I I turn those down so that people didn't see those when they first look at the photograph, but actually see the face of the person and the physique of the person that is wearing those clothes first, rather than the very bright embellishments. So I tend to desaturate and I always make sure that as far as possible the light is good. You'll see quite a few of my images with a black background. It's usually because I've shot them in a doorway, but sometimes I use a black cloth. So I try to be as diverse as possible in my photography.

Speaker 1: 1:11:46

But I definitely have developed and changed my style. Last last year you're probably aware of this I I took myself off on a on a photo trip, just um, as an adventure, really. Um. I went to pakistan for 10 days, um, and then I crossed the khyber pass and spent another 10 days in Afghanistan and you know that was street photography and people again, but different to the tribal photography and yet similar in many ways because it's all about interacting again with the people. But I edit those in exactly the same way, but it's a street context and I loved it. The people were fantastic in both countries, do you?

Speaker 2: 1:12:43

see, I mean, I think with all artwork there's, uh, there's an element of the artist in that art. So you know, you know it's a result of all of your experiences, all of your perceptions. So how do you see yourself in that artwork and your photos? I mean by the sounds of it it's, I mean, like with all of us, it's constantly evolving, but there is a commonality amongst all of them. So how do you kind of identify yourself in the images?

Speaker 1: 1:13:17

I think I'm the type of person who I'm a social being Right. I like to talk to people In the classroom, I love to teach, I love a night out at the pub with just a few friends, and I think my photography has to I don't know reflect the humanity of the moment. There has to be some sort of connection. So if someone looks at a Trevor Cole photograph, I want them to think oh you've obviously you know the person's relaxed, you've obviously created a little bond.

Speaker 1: 1:13:59

So I think it's that bond that I want people to see, that you know even if they're looking away or something, you know that there's been a moment where you know they've been relaxed with me. They've enjoyed sitting with a green tea in the streets of Kabul or Peshawar. So I want to capture life that connects and not disconnects.

Speaker 2: 1:14:37

I love, love that. I love the way you put that. Well, how do you, how do you then translate that to your education and what advice can you give or do you give to those aspiring photographers who are looking to infuse you know a lot more meaning and purpose in their photography? It's quite often the stumbling block, right?

Speaker 1: 1:14:58

come and tour with me. Basically, I would encourage people to take time to get to know their subjects, to wander the streets, sit down, down, have a chai, sit down on an old log and watch, look, observe, take photos that really reflect moments where you know, you know, you've, you've talked, you've maybe gone up to an old tribesman and you've patted him on the shoulder and said how are you doing? And you know, it works so, so well. And even you know, in places like harar in eastern ethiopia, which is strictly conservative, muslim, um, men are never a problem.

Speaker 1: 1:16:06

But you know, if you sit down on the street and you pop your camera up, you know, at a woman's face and she goes, no, no, no, no, no. And then you know, you, you, you, you, you say you do it again. You know, and you know, and you, you just have a little bit of a laugh with them. You'd be amazed how many times they'll say okay, okay, um, I'll let you take the photo. So I mean, there's a hell of a lot of rejections as well, but at the end of the day, you have to try and you have to be positive. You have to be a little bit, I think, extrovert in some ways. Being introvert doesn't really help with the camera, because if you're shy, they'll shy away camera, because if you're shy, they'll shy away um, um.

Speaker 2: 1:17:06

So you know it's good to be social smile goes a long way right, absolutely to breaking that barrier of trust and, um, you know, as soon as, as soon as you get let in, the world is usually your oyster. Well, okay, we're going to end with a conversation card question. Actually, this question came from our last podcast guest, p Aerts, who actually this is one of the best questions I've seen asked. So if you need extra time to answer this and this could actually go into a longer conversation, because I think it's a really, really important question I don't think it's important. Actually, I think it's a very interesting question that we we can talk about and the question is what is more important, the encounter or the photograph, and why?

Speaker 1: 1:17:53

well, I I think my my answer is they're both inextricably connected. Um it is absolutely as a cop-out um, but I would, I, I would have to say, um, it's the encounter that creates the photograph. But if I didn't get the photograph, then I think the encounter is much more important. If I didn't get the shot, I would be happy to have made a friend, if only for a moment, with the person that I'm interested in photographing.

Speaker 2: 1:18:46

Um, so the photograph is going to have no value unless there's an encounter yes, but if we're trying to educate, make people aware, tell a story, make an impact, hopefully we have to get a photo. So then that begs the question would you still, with that goal in mind, get a photo, at risk of damaging the encounter and the quality of the encounter?

Speaker 1: 1:19:41

and the way in which you interact with the person when you encounter them, that will get you the photograph. If you don't do that well, then the photograph becomes worthless, because only a good photograph will emerge from a good encounter.

Speaker 2: 1:20:06

Very good answer. We'll leave it at that, trevor. Thank you so much for joining me today, especially on a Saturday, and taking the time to answer some kind of tricky questions. But I really enjoyed talking more about kind of the real meaning philosophies behind your wonderful images. So keep going and I really hope I can join you one day, maybe on that Angola tour in September, but let's see. Thank you once again, trevor.

Speaker 1: 1:20:37

Come, come, come. Honestly, I, I, I would you know, because I I'll take into consideration here, as I said, you're in poverty state and give you a very good deal okay, all right, well, let's, let's, let's talk more until then.

Speaker 2: 1:20:54

On that note, thanks so much, and and take, take good care of yourself.