Say hello via text message and join in the conversation!
Daniel Kordan is a world-renowned photographer, artist and adventurer.
With his lens, and the support of millions of followers, Daniel enjoys uncovering the intimate dance of traditions and landscapes, guiding us through a world where photography is not just a profession but a heartfelt exploration of culture and adventure.
In my conversation with him we discuss many aspects of his journey, how to grow a huge audience as a photographer, as well as experiences and opinions on photography, travel and culture. You’ll also hear us talk about: the art of real engagement, revealing how personal encounters and local insights deepen the richness of visual narratives; the dance between the authentic touch of a photographer's eye and the emerging impact of AI technology in the craft; education and tips for budding photographers in the realms of personal branding and career growth, and much much more.
A real pleasure to grab such a busy man and sit him in my studio for a good chat.
Find Daniel and his other platforms on his IG page: @danielkordan
_________________________________________________________________________
Thank you for listening and for being a part of this incredible community. You can also watch this episode on my YouTube channel (link below) where I also share insights, photography tips and behind-the-scenes content on my channel as well as my social media, so make sure to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and TikTok or check out my website for my complete portfolio of work.
yoreh.
www.yoreh.co
discount code: moodpdcst.23
My FREE eBook:
www.form.jotform.com/240303428580046
My FREE Lighting Tutorial:
www.mattjacobphotography.com/free-tutorial-sign-up
YouTube:
www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay
Website:
www.mattjacobphotography.com
Socials:
IG @mattyj_ay | X @mattyj_ay | YouTube @mattyj_ay | TikTok @mattyj_ay
Say hello via text message and join in the conversation!
Daniel Kordan is a world-renowned photographer, artist and adventurer.
With his lens, and the support of millions of followers, Daniel enjoys uncovering the intimate dance of traditions and landscapes, guiding us through a world where photography is not just a profession but a heartfelt exploration of culture and adventure.
In my conversation with him we discuss many aspects of his journey, how to grow a huge audience as a photographer, as well as experiences and opinions on photography, travel and culture. You’ll also hear us talk about: the art of real engagement, revealing how personal encounters and local insights deepen the richness of visual narratives; the dance between the authentic touch of a photographer's eye and the emerging impact of AI technology in the craft; education and tips for budding photographers in the realms of personal branding and career growth, and much much more.
A real pleasure to grab such a busy man and sit him in my studio for a good chat.
Find Daniel and his other platforms on his IG page: @danielkordan
_________________________________________________________________________
Thank you for listening and for being a part of this incredible community. You can also watch this episode on my YouTube channel (link below) where I also share insights, photography tips and behind-the-scenes content on my channel as well as my social media, so make sure to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and TikTok or check out my website for my complete portfolio of work.
yoreh.
www.yoreh.co
discount code: moodpdcst.23
My FREE eBook:
www.form.jotform.com/240303428580046
My FREE Lighting Tutorial:
www.mattjacobphotography.com/free-tutorial-sign-up
YouTube:
www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay
Website:
www.mattjacobphotography.com
Socials:
IG @mattyj_ay | X @mattyj_ay | YouTube @mattyj_ay | TikTok @mattyj_ay
I'm a really weird introvert.
Speaker 2:Let's say I want to talk about the number 2.3 million.
Speaker 1:When you reach 10,000, 100,000, you're happy. But let's say, after 100,000, it doesn't matter really. It's just some number out there which doesn't reflect your actual reach, your actual connection to the audience. In the beginning, at the very beginning, when I started photography, I tried many different genres. I did a lot of weddings. Where did the passion for photography come from? About 15, 16 years ago, I started my first photography tours. What are the biggest challenges? The biggest challenge is not to die. It was just one of the stories. You want more. Of course. Eventually your name will become your brand, brand.
Speaker 2:Don't be shy telling the world about your niche it's a lot harder to be a photographer these days. Would you agree with that? No, I don't agree with that. When it all gets too dark, what helps you find the light?
Speaker 1:oh.
Speaker 2:All right, mr Daniel Corden. Thank you so much for joining me on the Mood Podcast.
Speaker 1:It's my pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we finally got you on. You're a very difficult man to nail down. We're going to talk about your schedule later on, but before we do, tell us about you and photography. Why photography?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, since you invited me, I was two times in Antarctica already, so it was easier to reach Antarctica. Yeah, so I was born in Russia myself, but now I live in the world. For the last 15 years and two of the last years I spent in Bali the world for last 15 years and two of the last years I spent in bali. So that's, uh, my main goal is actually, my main genre is landscape photography, travel photography.
Speaker 1:I admire local cultures. That's why bali is my second home now, because it's not only about the nature but also about the people. So they welcomed us and I love the combination here of, uh, what I like to shoot actually what I like to photograph, that's, uh, local balinese culture, with all the ceremonies, which are really beautiful, and a line of the amazing nature of indonesia. So that's, uh, my home now and a good base to explore asia. So in previous years I was traveling a lot all over the world. In fact, that was all over US, all over Europe, and now I focus primarily on Asian regions. I travel a lot around Indonesia itself you know, it's 17,000 islands here plus, so I have a whole lifetime to explore most of them and then Vietnam, japan my favorites, china as well. So I'd say, last few years I just focused on asian regions for landscape and nature photography why photography?
Speaker 2:what was it about photography that drew you in initially and when was it? When did you start?
Speaker 1:uh, yeah, well, initially, uh, I started actually as a mountain uh climbing guide in university. Okay, it was a past life, it was like 20 years ago or so. But uh, photography, well, I mean, if you travel to such amazing places in mountains, mostly around the post-soviet spaces, like kyrgyzstan, kazakhstan, tajikistan, pamir mountains, so I was taking a small camera with me all over and throughout all these years I just gained some portfolio images from all the mountain regions and well, eventually people started also asking me to teach them photography. So about 15, 16 years ago, I started my first photography tours, and first photography tours were in prussia, in europe, also in tuscany, in provence, in france. So since then I started also teaching people photography.
Speaker 1:So, slowly, my passion of traveling, of hiking in mountains, is actually transformed into photography. So now I like more uh, watching the mountains from uh, from outside, let's say, but sometimes even here in indonesia I like to hike some mountains. So here, uh, I hiked batur ragung, of course, in bali and other islands. Uh, like uh, lambok, I hiked rur Rangoon, of course, in Bali and other islands, like Lombok. I hiked Rinjani volcano, which was absolutely incredible. So, those who love hiking, it's just a must go to explore. Have you been there?
Speaker 2:I've been to Lombok. No, I haven't been up Rinjani. It looks too dangerous no, it's not why? Because I've seen videos of people falling, or at least the climbing, certainly near the top, where it's not. Why? Because I've seen videos of people falling, or at least the climbing, certainly near the top, where it's literally uh, you know, almost a 90 degree drop each side of where you, you know, and it's rubble. It's not very safe footing. But you know I'm not a big hiker.
Speaker 1:I you know, I'd rather just watch someone do it on tv, I don't know. I think it's more dangerous to ride the bike in bali than hiking that is true, that is, that is probably very true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but literally, yeah, it's, it's not for everyone for sure. I remember very well this last uh ascent, the very last part of rinjani. You think you're already on top, you can see the top, you can almost touch it, but then you make a step, make it two steps and, uh, you go step back because it's a soft sand on top and then it's really like starting 1 am in the night. It just kills you to meet sunrise, of course. 1 am you go from the camp, from the base camp. It's about four or five days trek you can take. So it's not just about reaching the top, not just about the way, the destination, but uh, it's about the places you can see on the way also. But uh, this very last part it's, it's really the hardest, I'd say where did the passion for photography come then?
Speaker 2:because you know, obviously you started as a mountaineer, or at least an adventurer, who enjoyed hiking and getting out into landscape in nature, and was it the documenting that landscape was just the visual aesthetics of a photograph that really intrigued you I'd say the passion comes mostly from childhood, from my childhood, when, uh, we didn't travel much as my parents were, uh, basically locked on their job pretty much and their work, and then we didn't go outside at all.
Speaker 1:So I just went outside with my uh, just my friends, just to hang out in some lakes in the Lake region, okay, close to Moscow, under Moscow, yeah, and uh, then I was just dreaming about traveling all my childhood until pretty much 16, 17 years old. So I was just dreaming and traveling all my childhood until pretty much 16-17 years old. I was just dreaming and reading a lot of books on adventures. So I read a lot of books on polar explorers, on Amundsen, shackleton, all these crazy stories, shackleton, on endurance he got stranded in South Georgia, how he was crossing and crossing the mountains, surviving, basically. So jack london stories as well. Yeah, so all the stories about uh exploration adventures it was just in the books and then, uh, I was missing it in real life. And when you dream so long then you cannot travel at all and the dream suddenly transforms into something bigger. So now I'm actually living my dream, yeah, good for you.
Speaker 1:Where did the camera? Why pick up a camera? Well, the first it was just to document these hiking trips with students. I was in a university and it was Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology, so I was studying physics, not photography, it was not my profession at all, but it helped me a lot because I have a community of like-minded people who like to travel, who like hiking, and that was just documenting the groups, basically taking pictures of people, of portraits, so we have some reports, uh, out of this trip. It was, um, basically it was like adventure tourism, which is kind of a sports discipline. So we were, we needed these reports to document and to apply for a kind of next, next grade of the sports, to compete also with other groups of hikers, this kind of university, uh, challenge university mountain club. So it's from there.
Speaker 1:But even before that I was doing a lot of painting stuff. I was in the painting school when I was a kid and I think it helped a lot also to understand the color, to be more bold with colors and compositions. So this combination between the passion for the painting and the passion for hiking, for traveling, well, actually it transforms into photography and when I started it was like 18 years ago or so. It was the first, the era of the first digital cameras, in fact. Yeah. So we had first Nikon's there. At first I was shooting Nikon already for 18 years or so I can imagine, but started actually with Konica Minolta and I also took just a bit of the film air as well. I was shooting on a Kiev camera it's like a medium format camera so I had a scanner which I used to develop the slides, the film from Kyiv. So first I experimented a bit with the film photography as well.
Speaker 2:Do you learn with film?
Speaker 1:essentially, yeah, because with film I needed a lot of precision. Yeah, it's not just you click here and there like we do right now, so I need to go somewhere for this one shot that I had in mind. I had some experiments, let's say, with pinhole photography. Yeah, that was like 16, 17 years old. They were experimenting instead of uh, just looking at my other friends who were just drinking and partying Smoking. I was out with a couple of introvert friends outside in the nature just positioning the camera doing this one perfect shot somewhere.
Speaker 1:Would, you consider yourself as an introvert. I'm a really weird introvert. I'd say yes, I think so Originally, yes, but well, now when I find my passion, I think maybe it transforms my character as well, because I love sharing my knowledge with other people. So I made a few photography courses. I do workshops, photography workshops this is my main job, my main business at the moment. Photography workshops, this is my main job, my main business at the moment. And uh, well, I, I guess I just hang along with the groups.
Speaker 2:well, I imagine as a I mean as a photographer. I always think us photographers are often quite introverted, or at least individual, it's not. It's not, I mean studio staff, yeah, but there's still one photographer. You may have a team around you, but there's one guy pressing that shutter button, right. So it's often you find a lot of introverts going into photography. But when you quickly realize, oh, to make a business out of this, I have to talk with other people and maybe teach other people or be presentable or somehow learn some other skills, that's, I think, the beauty of photography you.
Speaker 1:It kind of forces you to come out of yourself a little bit or at least find a new version of yourself yeah, and still I think that, uh, being a terrorist, that actually helps a lot with teaching workshops because you understand people more. Sometimes I actually feel more like a psychologist guiding all my groups other than actual photographer, because you need to understand if this person feels good on a trip, does he need more attention? Or another person need more attention, sometimes people you know they also. They don't talk to you about that, they can just send you some review in the end, but during the trip you actually need to read the people and talk individually to everyone to improve the photography, improve their skills.
Speaker 2:You need more personal approach to everyone, so like a mentorship, yeah empathy, must you know, is a is a really underrated skill, and when you're dealing with other people who want to learn, you have to be able to read people, right? You have to be able to read people but also understand their point of view. Um, it's really, really difficult. Um, we're going to, we're going to talk about your workshops later, but before we do, you know, I want to talk about the number 2.3 million. You've got 2.3 million followers on Instagram, which is kind of insane when you think about it for a photographer I mean, there are a few photographers that have that have you know, you could probably list them on two hands, right? How does that make you feel?
Speaker 1:I'd say, for me, the first maybe 10 000 or maybe first 100 000 were quite a challenge. I was excited about that, especially it was a few years back when Instagram was not on Facebook, so it was quite clear how you can grow the audience. Yeah, now, with all these changing algorithms, it's really challenging. But back then again, when you reach 10,000, 100,000, you're happy. But after 100,000, it doesn't matter really. It's just some number out there which doesn't reflect the actual reach, the actual connection to the audience or impact of this number on your business. So what I find more essential is actual connection to existing audience, existing real people, real clients that I had on the trips and connection via newsletters and the actual personal connection as well. So this is what's essential. But other than that, you realize that at any moment by someone out there in the meta and Facebook, they can change the algorithm and you can say goodbye to all these millions of people that are out there. So it really is just a uh, just the number.
Speaker 2:I think that's why it's important Just make sure you're doing. You're doing it because you enjoy it right there.
Speaker 2:You know that will always protect you against future challenges. You mentioned your audience. How do you connect with your audience when it's so vast? I imagine you put those people in where you can put them anywhere right 2.3 million people. It's a city. How do you connect with? You must get thousands of messages every day. You know your comments and just generally people wanting your attention or wanting something from you or wanting help or just saying hello. What is the strategy to connect with so many people and keep that audience interested, engaged and loyal?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so my main strategy was always just sharing honestly, uh, everything I'm doing, basically everywhere and traveling. All the pictures, all the reels that we do now, the stories, so I get a bit more personal. Just tell, uh, about the challenges that I have through the stories or the reels that we have, so people will understand that it's not just the picture. Especially now, with the era of AI, people need more personal experiences from you. So this is what I did all the time, just sharing with everyone. But, moreover, when I travel to a certain country, let's say, I like to connect with local people.
Speaker 1:When I first came to bali, first to come to indonesia, I traveled a lot with local photographers and even doing photography tours, photography business. That my main goal is always to connect to the local guides. So I never had to guide, let's say, myself. I always hire, always hire local drivers, local photographers. I try to help them out there also to gain some audience. And here in Indonesia we spend a lot with photographers from different islands as well. So when I go to Lombok, I travel with photographers from Lombok, from Zimbabwe as well, from Rajampat I also travel with local people as well, from rajampat, uh say, also travel local people as well, papua.
Speaker 1:So I think it's the key to connect to the real people and sometimes actually this number that we talk about, the millions of people out there.
Speaker 1:In the millions you can find certainly someone, even from some small community out there, in particular any particular country. I remember even uh, there were funny cases we went in greenland many times on the sailing boat, exploring all over the greenland, and once we docked in a really small village with just about 200 people in the village and they still have a small shop like a little supermarket there at the bay. So I go to supermarket and the girl at the counter actually recognizes me wow, are you, daniel famous? Yes, yes, daniel. But that connection, it also led me to, um, some good, good things, like they suggest where to go, they suggest where we can get some some food, places we can visit. Even this is like an explored region, totally unexplored. So I talk to locals and they tell me okay, so suggestions, okay, you can go there, you can see this place, you can stay there. So it really helps, especially if we're talking about less explored regions of the world.
Speaker 2:How do you find these places then? I mean, obviously there's once you're there and I know exactly how you feel and I think it's so important for us as photographers. I think we have a responsibility to, when you go into someone else's, not just a photographer, it's just as people. Even if you're a tourist, you can go into someone else's country. Meet the people right, give them respect, learn a little bit about their culture. Really, you can only do that by speaking with them directly right.
Speaker 2:Not through Instagram, not through the internet, not through any of that. So push that aside. But how do you find the places? Talk to us about your process of research and logistics and going to these places. How do you pick them? How do you know where, where to go? Is it recommendations or do you just sit down and do some research? Right, I want to pick a new place well, actually I do a lot of research.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I do the same amount of time of research is actually there out there in the fields, but some trips, of course, are more spontaneous, to say, which are more wild. So my, I will share my algorithm, how I do that. So, first of all, again, the the biggest secret is actually being connected to locals. You will never achieve anything yourself, yes, especially if we're talking about Indonesia. Yeah, there are some places like in Sumba, where you're also going to go soon. So in Sumba, I just go there and connect with local photographers or local people who can bring me out there. So you will never find all the small places just driving. You will find, probably by driving, but it will take you forever, yeah. And then, uh, um, this first stage it's always try to find some local. Yeah, try to find some local. Yeah, try to find some local. Talk to them, maybe, learn a little bit of their language as well, and then they help you to already understand everything on location. So that's number one. If we're talking about well-developed places like in europe and us, of course everything is out there, so everything is photographed. For me it's a little bit more boring. That was the reason for me to move to asia, to focus on the indonesia and less traveled places, on vietnam as well. Because, yeah, locals they know the spots, they travel there, but for western people it's like totally hidden world, absolutely hidden world. And still, if we're talking about western world, like us, all information is out there. You just need to sit with the map and do some research. It helps a lot, just uh understand.
Speaker 1:Uh, even by instagram, like my last trip was in japan, yeah, I was sign up, I was following many Japanese photographers for many years and when I see something interesting, I just uh find the picture. I find sometimes people put the Gail tag in the picture. I put it on the map. So I have custom maps for every country. So I'm just, instead of some dumb scrolling, I find the picture. Even the location is not there.
Speaker 1:You can always run the Google search by the image and then you can still find the location of the image. You can put it on the map and then, once the trip is ready, maybe in the future, you already have this map with locations. So pretty much it's not just on Google Maps, it's also in the head, because I know this place, I found it, I know, then I understand maps. It's also in the head because I know this place, I found it. I know, then I understand the axis. I try to make the logistics so bit, make the chain, make logistics between the spots, how to arrange this perfectly. And then this part of the of the trips of adventure is actually. That's the big part for me, because I just like to sit there next to the map and plan all this exciting. Yeah, yeah, yeah for me where's your favorite?
Speaker 2:where's your favorite place? If you had, you had to pick one. Your favorite place, just generally, not necessarily for a photo tour or workshop well, you mean just all over the world. Yep, well, I guess it's always the place where you are right now yes, in the studio on studio on the Moon podcast, in the studio on your podcast Drinking great coffee. Yeah, yeah drinking amazing coffee no would it be somewhere crazy like Antarctica, or would it be more kind of close to home, somewhere like Bali or somewhere that you frequent a lot?
Speaker 1:That's a really complicated question because how you can compare Antarctica with Bali.
Speaker 2:But there's got to be somewhere you look forward to going, to going to every year.
Speaker 1:There's got to be someone like oh, I want to go back there, I want to go back to so many spots?
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, what about from your client perspective? So, people who come on your workshops and photo tours, what's the most popular one?
Speaker 1:I'd say I can give you top five or top ten, maybe all the places. Yeah, give me top three. Yeah, top three. Okay, narrow down. So, of course, top one is indonesia for me. Okay, that's why I moved here from all the places around the world, I moved to indonesia because this is absolutely spectacular I'm not talking only about the bal.
Speaker 1:So there are so many islands, so different cultures, with amazing landscape and uh, as explorer, is photographer, is just a paradise. So you go out there, you fly one hour from Bali and then, uh, you're the only foreigner Like uh the. My recent trips, uh, was to uh Bengay islands, to Sulawesi, to Toraja, one week. I haven't seen a single foreigner there, and even people like kids are curious. They come to you, they, they smile at you, they try to to meet you. Super friendly country, indonesia. It's not just about how you travel, it's about how people welcome you, and this is number one, for sure, and then second place for me I'd say it's uh, patagonia okay yeah, patagonia, it's absolute favorite that I look forward to go every year because I can see that it's the most beautiful mountains in the world.
Speaker 1:When you stay there and you see the mountains far away up in the sky, it's just piercing the sky with this sharp uh sharp teeth. That's crazy wildlife as well all the pumas that we track there, so it's absolutely epic. So not not actually not a single picture that you will see that will represent the feel when you're out there in this open space, when you see these beautiful mountains out there. And actually, the third country that I'm really looking forward to return now it's Vietnam. It's my recent new favorite.
Speaker 1:I was traveling last year to Vietnam for almost a month. So I traveled with my friend Viet from north to south by car about 5,000 kilometers or so. It's crazy, yeah, all over the place in one month. And I was just surprised how amazing people are Very friendly people again, but the most amazing it's like they stuck in some time like 15th, 16th century. They stuck in some time like 15 16th century, when you see all these people on uh, on them on bicycles or even carrying all the haystacks, manual plows in the field yeah, not even the plows, they're just cutting the fields or like using the shovels, whatever. So it's really crazy. Yeah, the scenery, the culture and it's just wonderful.
Speaker 1:And of course, it's this. This list of free is changing all the time. Yeah, because, uh, I make, I like to return to the same places. So when you return to the same places, you get better connection to the people. You work on the project and it's like you know, I originated from the science, so my background was physics and we did the same. We were solving these problems. Yeah, first you need to understand if this topic is fresh. Actually, if there is a lot of pictures of the same matter, it doesn't even make sense to start the project. Right, if it's something new, if it's something interesting, you work on it and eventually, after many months, many years of working, you have this material and you can do some exhibitions, you can do the books and you make a solid portfolio, solid connection to the people as well.
Speaker 2:So it leads you to something bigger than just a tourist trip to some destination do you find that harder to do now just because of the increased ubiquity of social media and digital presence? You know, there's photos of everything. I mean there are still places in the world that are undocumented, but they're dwindling by the day. Right? It's more difficult, well, I find anyway, than about you. You travel a lot more, but is it more difficult for you to find those untold stories and those undocumented people and landscapes?
Speaker 1:I don't think so. There's always something new out there. It's just that you don't need to repeat the same after others. If you just repeat, of course it's good as a process of teaching, let's say so. If you want to learn something, it's nice to repeat.
Speaker 1:But then eventually, at a certain point, you realize that you need to find your niche. And to find your niche you need your own style, and I'm not talking about only the style of editing your niche. You need your own style, and I'm not talking about only the style of editing. It's the style of, uh, the images that you aim to get, and I always aim to get something unique and interesting that you can tell the story about. It's not just about the pictures, it's all also about the story of your adventure, the story about the phenomenon and, just to name a few recent projects, uh, one of the interesting projects that I had was to go to glowworm caves in New Zealand. That was there last December and to spend more than a week in the case. So I went to, uh, five or six different glowworm caves and I tried to negotiate with the.
Speaker 1:Some caves they have the owners. Some caves they belong to government and most of them actually privately run and I needed to negotiate with the owners about me getting there. And let's say, like example, one of the caves, uh, was filmed in the bbc planet earth, so it was narrated by david atan borough, that amazing program, yeah, visited the cave himself. It was a spellbound cave in new zealand. So I found the owners, I sent them the message. They were very busy and I needed to actually they give me any reply. I needed to return the same day, uh, back to bali, back to indonesia. And then they messaged me in the evening, when I'm already driving to christ church, like 1000 kilometers or so from this cave, and they messaged me okay, daniel, you can come tomorrow. Okay. So what I did? I changed my tickets, yeah one Turned around.
Speaker 1:Turned around Drive all the night. 6 am, I was there at the cave. I was taking pictures standing half water with all the eels trying to bite me all over like this in the cold water and well, taking pictures of the most amazing glowworm cave in New Zealand. And, yeah, that's how I do it. So eventually, yeah, the moral here that after I spent almost a week there, I had a collection of glow worm pictures from all over the caves and I can tell this kind of stories and the words is some media requested some photos from me. We made some articles. So this is how you can do something out of it.
Speaker 2:How do you teach people, then, to find their style? What is the process for a beginner or even an intermediate who doesn't quite know where they fit in their photography journey, or photography voice and style? What is your kind of advice to them when you're, when you're teaching them about style and aesthetics and yeah, I think the main advice is actually to try to get out there to travel with this photographer.
Speaker 1:So many of photographers like me we have photography workshops and actually going even to one of the strips it will. It can change your life completely, because, one thing, when you watch this uh through the internet, you see the pictures. Another, when you stay next to a photographer, you actually see how he works, how, uh, he manages the trip and how he edited the images, what's his philosophy behind all this. So, when you actually travel with a real person that inspires a lot for entire life, it can change, uh, completely. But again, the main thing is to try to find your niche, your style. So it may be not just the editing style, which is which is, of course, very essential. It's important.
Speaker 1:Nowadays it's, uh, I'd say, much easier to develop other than developing the actual style of your photography, what you aim for. This is quite a complicated process but, again, just watching, following others, it helps a lot. So maybe put some target. Try it me myself in the in the beginning, at the very beginning, when I started photography, I tried many different genres, so I didn't limit myself to landscape only never. Actually. First, when I started photography. I did a lot of weddings oh, did you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was like a black, black stain on my career. Yeah, I can joke now, but in the beginning it was a good income as well. Many people struggle first of all about how to actually make a living out of that. Yeah, you cannot make a living straight away from the landscape or from posting on social media. There must be some applications.
Speaker 1:Like you, do some interior photography, do some weddings, and it helps you to practice, help you to maybe earn some money on the equipment which helped me a lot and give some, give you some experience and connection to photography community, and then after that it's like you can take off already. After that you start, you can start, and after that it's like you can take off already. After that you can start doing smaller things, like your personal landscape trips, let's say, or whatever the passion calls you, portrait trips, whatever, but it will be your personal projects, so it's not just like a dream life when you can go out and do whatever you want. You still need to have a lot of planning. You still need some uh projects that actually bring, bring you some income, which is not always crosses with your passion and there's a great way to find your style as well.
Speaker 2:Not only do you learn techniques, you learn how to deal with people, you learn how to deal in business. Right, I feel? I feel like us as photographers we don't see what's required to go into it. Before we go into it it's like, oh, I want to go and take photos, start taking photos. Like now, I have to kind of get some money from this and I have no business skills or experience, and that's a big part of it, right? It's not only the technical aspects of being able to take a photo. It's learning how to pitch yourself, how to create a brand and how to do these jobs where you kind of just have to say, yes, I'll do them to get some money coming through the door, right? So is that something that you talk about a lot in your? I mean, talk us about, talk to us about your workshops and your tours. Are they very education-based or are they more like guiding? You know how, how do you go about that?
Speaker 1:it depends, let's say it depends on the destination, on the trip, and depends on the people, what you, what they aim for, what they aim to find. Okay, they always can find something. Let's say, some people, they're very experienced, so they come, just like they come to indonesia, so, so I can bring them to the places. I can organize all these amazing stages with Balinese dancers, or maybe with Brahma horses, with Sumba horses as well. So we do a lot of stages. If you come along, then it will be much more expensive actually than the cost of workshop to organize it yourself. This kind of things, as I like to. Again, I like to combine nature plus culture in many of the of the shots, and people can do the portraits, they can do some genre photography in some villages, so they can always find something for themselves. Or if someone come to get the knowledge from me, they always will get it. They can ask me any question. I'm always open to share my knowledge.
Speaker 2:So it depends, uh, of the goal of the actual person that comes here always find something on the strips you talked about, um, how to finding one's style, certainly with editing, which is kind of a whole thing in itself, right. How do you go about finding an intent with your editing style, or at least what you're trying to say in your photos Is there, you know. Do you pay much attention to that in terms of documenting what you're seeing, with how you represent it in the photo? Like, take your glowworm example. What are you thinking about when you're taking those photos? Like I want to capture this exactly how it is, or I want to make more of an artistic aesthetic uh.
Speaker 1:Well, it's also quite complicated question right now because you know there's a lot of ai coming in. So I personally tend to uh do editing more natural way right now. So then it was before when we all played with the hdr and we all played with kind of uh, just uh how to explain a bit over editing, let's say yeah. So now I try to find more simpler nature scenes with a bit of less editing but focusing more on the phenomenon itself. Yes, focusing on phenomenon.
Speaker 1:Let's say this uh, photos we're talking from new zealand there's not much editing. Of course it's post-processing for the noise, but it is what the camera captures. Of course it's a long exposure that you cannot even see by your own eyes yeah, but still, many of the recent shoots I edit just a little bit. Yeah, so I try not to over edit. I'd say it's a bit of trend also in photography to opposite AI yeah, opposite that you can achieve with artificial intelligence, which is sometimes most of the the time I'd say, killing the natural way, natural experience of what you can what way elaborate on on the ai influence in photography?
Speaker 1:yeah, the influence. Of course it's a lot of influence, yeah, but nothing will change the real experience of the people, real experience of you being there at sunrise and witnessing the rise of the sun and feeling the smell, feeling the sounds of nature. So then, still, people will keep traveling, keep taking photos, and this feels more like a tool, more like a toy. Yeah, people play uh for a while, but of course, the tool part, the toolkit part of this is quite amazing as it simplifies the editing a lot as well. So let's say, uh, I use not just lightroom or photoshop for editing, we'll talk about that. I use some software like skyloom, and skyloom they have luminar. Let's say, they have ai for dust spots removal or even for the wire removal from your pictures. Really, yeah, so this always struggle for photographers you have to brush it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can just click one button and it removes all the dust spots.
Speaker 1:So, to this extent, when you can use as a tool which, uh, not bringing anything artificial to your images, but just removing some crap from your photos, um, this, this is acceptable for me and this is this part I love a lot so your line is as long as you're not adding things into image, you're you're okay with taking things out. Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm kind of with you on that. I think most photographers will remove even the smallest of distractions right, and even back in the film days you're dodgy and burning and that's kind of the same thing. What about AI in the bigger picture, when we think about the future of photography and jobs and paid work, and how do you think ai is going to kind of take over parts of photography, if at all?
Speaker 1:so I think it's. It's just uh remember the times, uh, when uh the digital era came no, I'm too young, daniel yeah, I, I remember, yeah, I remember what happened there. So basically, people were always complaining about that. When digital era came, they said it's the end of the film. And well, it was not the end, it was just another stage. Let's say, and here's the same. So let's say, instead of being like digital, let's say, additionally to being a digital artist, we have a new tool to explore. So, like being AI operator instead.
Speaker 1:Of being like a digital painter. So these things, we can use it as a tool which helps to improve our photography, but it's not a replacement for photography, it's just another, another application. It's another area that we can incorporate, and I see a lot of nice, uh nice stuff that people do with the composites, with ai. I'm totally fine with that. It's recognizable that it's AI and it's beautiful, of course. But I will stay for sure with photography, with real photography, real experience. This is the part that drives me most in photography. These are stories that you can tell, these are experiences that you can share with other people. So this part is essential for me. Not just sitting in front of computer and generating some random images which, uh, which doesn't have the story behind, which doesn't have any experience behind it.
Speaker 2:It's more like design, isn't it? Yes, I think we're too eager to a lot of people out there, too quick to conflate ai, image generation as photography or with photography, and just see completely different. They can both coexist absolutely fine, they just shouldn't be mixed. I mean they will be mixed, certainly when it comes to documentary photography, for example. There'll be misinformation out there. And then I think it comes down to the regulation of real images, right, how do we authenticate them? You know, if you see two images, how do we know which one's real and which one isn't? But I agree in terms of the personal aspect, then it's about sharing. It's about having these experiences and sharing these experiences with other people.
Speaker 1:So that's why it would always be around, even in editing. There's a trend of being more realistic right now in landscape photography, just focusing on some small nature scenes as well, opposite to ai with this pictures which are screaming with color, with some unnatural way of presentation. Then I see many photographers also tend to capture some small, simple scenes, some forest and the fog or beautiful trees or some abstracts, opposite of being this non-realistic with AI. So it's kind of the tendency right now in landscape photography at least.
Speaker 2:How do you see the world of photography changing in the future? Let's talk about how you see photography and its value in today's world. What with social media being bigger than ever. Everyone seems to have a camera in their pocket. It's more competitive, it seems. Brands seem to want to pay less for jobs. It's everyone's got a course out is more competitive. I mean, you, you're kind of the pioneer in a lot of these things, but generally speaking, it's. It's a lot harder to be a photographer these days. Would you agree with that?
Speaker 2:no I don't agree with that, okay, why?
Speaker 1:no, not really, because I'd say many people complain also social media, how hard it is to grow the social media. But well, I just started also experimenting with reels. It was, for me, not just a serious thing, it's like a game, I'd say. Of course, I still focus on photography, on my projects, but I started just after taking a picture, I started recording some videos Just after I finished photography, posting this, posting some parts from the drone as well. And well, surprisingly, I started getting like millions of views. Yeah, so last year in October, I traveled to Vietnam. After return from Vietnam, I had plus 200,000 followers just after one trip. And it doesn't have to do anything with my existing following, because if you have the video that is not going viral, like's say just a like, a few thousand views, it doesn't affect at all. But once you get viral and instagram shows your video to many random people out there, you start getting a really good reach.
Speaker 1:And I see many photographers who like telling the story, who like telling the story with their reels as well. They can gain a lot of following in a very short time. And this is something that never happened before, because before what happened? How you grow the social media, you grow it very slowly, steadily. You post every day. Every day you get a small growing. There's nothing like that. Every day you get a small growing. There's nothing like that. Yet you photography can bring you immediately like thousands of new followers like this.
Speaker 1:So now I see a lot of young people, 18, 20 year old, who are very active with the video, who can do many things together that photos and videos and tell the story about that. With a lot of energy, they can be very successful in very short period of time. So, instead of complaining about algorithms, just try to experiment and do something new. Of course, all these videos it's not just like I'm filming them all the time. I'm still focusing on photography, but it's a small fun part for me just also to tell the backstage, to tell the story love bts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's fun yeah, yeah, just just like this but social media aside, to make a full-time living to make full-time income as a photographer not a videographer, not someone who makes videos. Because we're moving, the general demand is more for video than it is for still images. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the situation. To be a full-time photographer. I live off money from photography. You still think it's not that difficult to do, or do you think it is more competitive, so it's more difficult to do? Do you think the demand is still there it was always competitive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was, no matter, um, just when it was five years ago, ten years ago, it was always competitive. It was always hard, but for me it's a challenge that make make it worth doing that. If it would be easy, that would be maybe not so interesting for me to do photography business, but here you always have a challenge how to plan your trips, how to plan your life, your business. And that's the thing. When you work for yourself, like this, when you're not working for some big corporation or just what people get used, yeah, seven, like five days a week you go for for a job and you have steady income.
Speaker 1:No, here you're risking all the time and you need to get ready for these risks for me which actually this is something that makes life interesting just not understanding what will happen next, next day, yeah, so you're always experimenting, you're always risking and, uh, the more you risk, the more you you gain eventually, of course. Let's say we have some uh, uh, some trips, let's say, to Antarctica. Yeah, it's not just you know you get the group to Antarctica. You need to pay thousands of dollars of deposits for Antarctic cruise ships, for chartering ships. That's a huge risk, even for me nowadays. But well, eventually, if you get the group and everything happening, then well, it's well paid off.
Speaker 2:Let's say how do you get the group? How do you as a someone who doesn't have a few million followers, who could put a reel on or could put a story on, and immediately you got probably tens of thousands of people, hundreds of thousands of people were seeing it right, but you're a photographer that wants to do similar things. Go and do workshops, go on expeditions with people. What is your recommendation to them? Uh, to make that work and to start out doing those kind of things.
Speaker 1:I'd say the best recommendation is start with the local markets. Okay, let's say, uh, with something smaller. Find this little niche in something even for, let's say, we started talking about antarctica, polar regions. There are a lot of new cruise ships right now and they're looking for uh, for employees yeah. They're looking for photographers on board yeah, and I know some uh photographers who doesn't even have any following. They just apply to many cruise. So they just send one letter and this is what I suggest to do, and it works actually just to send the small email, like a few words, explaining who you are, what you want to achieve there, what you will bring to this people yeah, just explaining about yourself, about your passion, and send this email to like a hundred cruise ships out there, yeah, and maybe someone will reply. Those who replied already interested, you can start the conversation. I'd say maybe 10, 10 percent or maybe even less will reply at all, yeah, and then those who reply, you can already start talking. Maybe arrange some conversation when you can call and actually see the person uh, at least in zoom. Yeah, and then you can already start talking. Maybe arrange some conversation when you can call and actually see the person uh, at least in zoom. Yeah, and then you can discuss the things and then someone can accept you eventually, it doesn't matter how my, how many followers you have. Yeah, it really.
Speaker 1:I've seen a lot of photographers who are just passionate about what they want to achieve. Who are just passionate about what they want to achieve. And well, the same applies to working with brands, working with uh, uh, how the projects. Let's say this is my main approach. Let's say, when I traveled in europe, uh, but I'll say I need the car. Yeah, I need the car for like one month of traveling around the europe.
Speaker 1:So let's say the same I send this message to the marketing people of different brands, of Audi, mercedes and so on. So, eventually, marketing teams from Audi, they replied and we talked and they gave me the car for a month project. So I had a car. The same happening with hotels, resorts and not some smaller resorts which are talking about Indonesia and not maybe on bali or some other small islands. They will be happy to to see the photographers, even with a smaller following. Yeah, but if you're passionate, if you send these messages out there, your mails, and start talking, reminding, don't forget to remind as well. Follow up, yeah, as many, I like you actually how you follow up with me. That's why I'm here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, yeah. I mean yeah, I have a very simple system for that and I'm sure everyone does for getting jobs or networking or whatever the goal is right. It's just a follow-up system.
Speaker 1:And yeah, same with me. Let's say, I have so many emails that sometimes just get lost and they just drowned there. So you're not replying, not because, uh, you don't want to, but because it's just simply the email drowned and we're so busy. We live the moment right now.
Speaker 2:So when you remind someone, it's just it's perfect to be to you you always reply to my messages and that stood out for me because so many big people, someone with even 100,000 followers on Instagram, let alone 2.3 million you can imagine how many messages they get. I mean, I have a few hundred thousand. There's lots of messages, most of them fucking stupid messages, but a lot of messages every day to get on and reply to, right. So I really appreciate like and I'm not a verified account so I don't go to the top of your message feed, I'm sure. So that goes a long way as well with people wanting to start out in photography. How you handle yourself, how you do communicate your integrity behind replying to emails at some point or at least apologizing if they're really late, and just that general way of carrying yourself, I mean that's got to be just as important as your photography skills.
Speaker 1:Yeah and say also being more personal. Let's say, if I see the message you asked me in the beginning, like how you sort all these messages right, and if I see the message which is not not personal, so I think it's like a bot or it's automated, you know. But if someone put a simple phrase like hello Daniel, how are you? I'm a follower, um, my name is this, I work here and there. Just a simple, very just a few words put there, just simple greeting, personal greeting, and it already changes everything. So I want to reply this message, I want to get in touch with the person. But when you have a message like where is it Jude? No, it's just filtering this out.
Speaker 2:Well, there you go, guys. If you want to message Daniel on Instagram and you want to get a reply, now you know how. Yeah, not just me. No, I'm just joking me. Yeah anyone.
Speaker 1:So anyone. Even even if you want to get some job again, it's bad. It's best to address it. Not even we're talking about Antarctic as an example, right, you address it. Not just Antarctic cruise ship, like Hello cruise ship. No, it doesn't. There is a marketing person out there who's responsible for everything, or the officer which is responsible for hiring, for HR as well. So you find this in the contact section, you find the name and you address this person and it will raise your chances of getting reply for hundreds of times, getting more personal. I think it's also the key for success as well.
Speaker 2:So when we're talking about jobs and kind of the approach to outreach, getting jobs, how do you recommend that? Let's say, I'm a beginner photographer but I have complete passion for it, but I'm nowhere in terms of earning from photography. But I've decided right, old life is over, I'm a photographer. Now where do I start?
Speaker 1:uh, it doesn't work like that. No, it's a, it's a dream scenario. No, it doesn't work like this either, because I can say honestly no course can can change it just like that. So it's still. It's a hard work. For me, it was a very smooth transition from what I did. I did a lot of businesses in my life. It was. Some of them were photography related, like I mentioned, the wedding photography. I had a digital agency also. We some websites. We designed websites so a bit of a similar field to photography as well when I used a lot of photoshop. Just being there in the community and slowly introducing yourself in this field. That helps a lot, but it's not a fast transition. I'd say it's smooth. For me, it took almost almost eight years to establish photography trips, photography tours, and back then there was no social media. Yeah, again, we're talking about the challenges how competitive it was. It was quite hard to do the trips without the social media. It's not just like you make a post on social media, you advertise, you bring the people make a group.
Speaker 1:No, you needed to do the proper website. You needed to do the proper advertising on google. Sometimes the proper ceo of your website send a letter. Yes, yes, find, uh, yeah, find this audience and keep this audience in the newsletters and emails. So it was. It was different, but it was always challenging. I'd say so just being this kind of swiss knife man which takes care of everything, of the marketing or the photography, of the editing. Of course, that will bring you out there, but it takes time.
Speaker 2:Just get out and do it right, start somewhere. I think there's many people and I've done this as well. It's like you know, learn this, learn this. I need to find out about that and just get out and do something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if we're talking about the earning money, the income, of course, here you need to find a niche. If you're just having fun experimenting with photography, then basically you just free, on your own, spend as much money as you want out there in the fields on different types of photography, types of photography, but here is certainly some niche, some projects you work on that will help you to focus on one particular goal what about the creativity behind what you do?
Speaker 2:I mean, how much emphasis do you place on being creative or getting inspiration from other artists or other photographers, or do you, you know, go out on these projects, just go, I'm just gonna see what happens well, it's, uh, always some balance about the creativity.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I find myself that I give too much of myself on workshops and I don't even have time to photograph myself on photography workshops because I do a lot of teaching there, so mostly just conversation with people and barely have time to shoot myself. So that's why I try to do part-time projects for myself only, yeah. So when I go out there, explore new places and this helped me a lot, yeah, not just going to the same spots, yeah, but also exploring something new, something different, something unique that gives me inspiration on its own. Let's say Also, again, that's why I do workshops as well. It's not just about, uh, uh, teaching people, but they also teach me something.
Speaker 1:Even if we go to the same places, then still, I see, okay, they find a new angle. So someone shows me the picture. It's totally different from what I get used to see, even if you've been there hundreds of times different people, different perspective, different vision as well. So they always teach you something new. They refresh your thinking as well. So when you share your passion with other photographers, with the real people out there in the field, that inspires a lot as well. So just being alone, being a single photographer out there, I'd say you may lose the passion quite easy, but other people that surround you that you see the passion in their eyes, you can see the sparkle. That sparkle can go to you as well and just be there with other people, so share it. How does it go the other way? How do you inspire other people? So share it.
Speaker 2:How does it go the other way? How do you inspire other people? Because you do, obviously, but is that again? Is that a conscious strategic effort, especially when you do workshops Like well, I've got to be the guy that inspires these eight people, or however many people, to be better people and better photographers.
Speaker 1:Well, I'd say just being there at sunrise it's an amazing place, like in zumba, uh, dancing trees of zumba at sunrise, when you walk on the water and you can see this burning sky. At sunrise, you can see perfect reflection, like you're walking on the water among all these beautiful twisted trees and you can see this happy smiles on people faces. That's just inspiration by by itself. Yeah, I even find sometimes difficult when I go myself just to wake up for sunrise and it happened, yeah, yeah, it happened many times. Like I open the window, I can see it's cloudy, it's overcast and I'm not going there. Yeah, but then you're with the group, you wake up anyway. It's cloudy, it's overcast and I'm not going there, yeah, but then you're with the group, you wake up, anyway, it's even it's raining. You go there and there is a small opening in the sky and the whole sky is just burning and you see the rainbows, unicorns and stuff like that. Unicorns, yeah, it depends on how much you sleep depends how many drugs you take on what you drink.
Speaker 1:But yeah, when you see that, of course it's just, you realize that you're the puck, yes, you're the part of the puck of photographers and we all inspire ourselves to wake up this freaking 3-4am. When we go to Bromo, let's say, we wake up 2am in the night to get there by 4 am or so and then there's no way you can get this done alone. Yeah, when you unpack of them, the group, of course you encourage each other and you inspire each other as well there's a challenge for sure.
Speaker 2:What other challenges do you face on a kind of daily basis as a well-established, successful photographer, leading groups all around the world? That in itself seems like just many challenges, but give us an idea of like daniel corden daily life, of what are the the biggest challenges. You might say children, but what are the biggest challenges you?
Speaker 1:you face, the biggest challenge is not to die actually yeah, okay, right, I have.
Speaker 2:I have no argument with that, just survive yeah just survival process.
Speaker 1:You know, this happened many times, even here in indonesia, almost die so many times.
Speaker 2:Well, I did have a question about that. Actually, we might as well jump into that. You know, give it, give us some stories about some dangerous situations. Or because you know the I travel a lot and compared to you, I don't travel much, but I do travel. You know, all the time, um, and even myself, there are many, many situations every month. I'm just like this doesn't feel great, you know. So you must have many examples, especially in certain countries, um, can you, can you pick out any any good stories?
Speaker 1:I hope you have time until evening because you can hit it for a long time. Well, yeah, even even we talk about indonesia. Yes, last, last year I nearly died after tsunami took me out to the sea. So I was in Lombok Island at sunrise and then, with the local guide, local photographer, jack, it was very calm, it was low tide, of course, we checked the tide, everything and we hiked one hour to the very beautiful spot in Lombok, beautiful beach there. So we stay on the rocks, very calm, everything, and then, out of nowhere, huge waves start hitting us. So we climbed the tallest rock, maybe six meter tall rock, and the waves were still so high, so something unusual happening. But there is no, there was no way to retreat back because behind me there was a wall, rocky, rocky wall, rocky surface. So there is no way we can just climb the rocky wall. We're already quite high.
Speaker 1:And then eventually, the waves were quite high, so high that they took us out to the sea, all the equipment, everything waves just splashed us like all over six, seven meter tall waves, and then it was like a washing machine. So I already said goodbye to everyone, actually, because I felt this all over the wave was just throwing me from the rock to the rock. I was feeding me with a head, so a few times almost like I see the dark in front of my eyes. I was underwater for five minutes, so maybe six, seven waves hitting me. So between the waves I had the chance just to grab on some rock to get some air. But I was just holding on my life trying to get out, to swim out of the sea. I lost all my fingerprints on my, on my hands. Actually was all me at the rock, yeah, because it tried to get, and then eventually the wave throw me out of the sea, just like that. Actually was all me at the rock, yeah, because it tried to get, and then eventually the wave throw me out of the sea, just like that.
Speaker 1:I was all covered with blood all over, from head to uh to the feet. The first thing I checked if my, my skull it was okay, but it was uh. The uh concussion was so bad that I felt it's like cracked my head already it's cracked. And then I see the blood all over. So basically all body was cut. It was with bruises. And then, the craziest part, actually even my, my, my shorts. I was naked. So the wave was so, so strong that they even took my, my shoes out and all my my, even my t-shirts were just torn apart. They took out to the sea. It was, uh, just like that. My friend jack. He was the same, approximately a bit better condition, but still we lost everything. Of course, everything we had, all equipment, everything is gone. And then we needed to walk back almost an hour and a half to the car along the shore and there aren't exactly great hospitals like nearby in Lombok.
Speaker 1:We took the car, of course, all bleeding, and then after 20 minutes we get to the emergency room in Kuta in Lombok. There were some girls that were in shock when they saw me there, all blood, like a mummy going like this. I was, of course, on adrenaline. Yeah, yeah, of course. What?
Speaker 2:was the diagnosis. I mean, have you?
Speaker 1:I was presumed concussion, yeah concussion cuts all over, so they were stitching me almost the whole day long like this in emergency, then transferred to the hospital and eventually I spent like two weeks so in the hospital. So there was like all covered with bandages all over, like a mummy, just eyes out like this. And then the girls. They were coming every every day and when taking out all the bandages, making the new little little pieces of the skin on my body, this was, uh, did you get a good photo though?
Speaker 2:Oh, no Cause you cameras are lost. I have a photo. I can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have a photo because later on, uh, our friends came to search for our equipment and actually found my phone. The smartphone survived. And then, uh, um, the phone, the found the camera, of course all broken the lenses, but they take the card out and the, the card survived, yeah, so they found the backpack, thrown out to the rocks, actually.
Speaker 2:so and did you find out? You said this was last year. Uh, last year was it a tsunami? I mean, was there an earthquake offshore?
Speaker 1:yeah, later later we checked, it was unusual. There was a series of earthquakes, about four to five force a series of them. So after the series of earthquakes, uh, outside of lombok the seas produced this kind of waves. Okay, all right. Yeah, so they produced the waves which actually took us, took us away from the sea now.
Speaker 2:Does that change? Does that change your approach or thinking? When you go on these trips, are you a bit more careful or you just not really.
Speaker 1:I'm just enjoying the life of one more, just just another challenge to not die yeah, another challenge. It was just one of the stories. You want more. I have a lot of stories.
Speaker 2:Do you have any where you might have been threatened by other people or the?
Speaker 1:you know there's some other human interactions that might be a little scary many times, also almost nearly died in johannesburg in south africa yeah, we were passing by just by car and we needed just to to get some, uh, some money from atm and it was surrounded by by kids with knives, actual kids like 12 year old, 15 year old kids in johannesburg, and then they actually threatened me with knives just next to atm. But then I was lucky because my my guide, my driver, he had a gun, so he just fired in the air and then the kids just run away. Yes, they were quite serious about what they were doing. You know, this is all but nice around you and a lot of carjackings there as well, in johannesburg stopping a red light and yeah, yeah, yeah, it was just one of the cases.
Speaker 1:Another case was also very dangerous. I was in the border between chile and bolivia and I was stuck on the car. So I rented the car from chile and there was a pickup apparently it was a back wheel drive which I realized only when I got stuck in the desert somewhere just in between.
Speaker 2:Did you have a four-wheel drive well.
Speaker 1:I rented this as a foldable drive but they gave me the freaking back wheel drive pickup car.
Speaker 1:So, anyway, my back wheels were was stuck in the sand and in fact I was rescued by bolivia drug dealers, which just they, they wanted actually to to carjack and just take my car away. Apparently they see me in the desert were very happy, like easy target. But then we started the conversation. They realized that they're actually quite poor. I don't have much money on me and then I'm actually from russia and we're quite happy about this fact. Why? Yeah, you know they're like communists and okay, like that. So we talked about some, some things with them and eventually they just helped me to get out. You know, after a good conversation, a bit of drinking with each other under the stars, they they sit on the back of the pickup, a few people and other people who helped to put the car out. Yeah, it was maybe. I was quite relaxed about that. I don't know why, actually, because it was very scary. Sounds like you were drunk. Yeah, yeah, maybe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was actually really yeah yeah, um, I mean, I'm sure you've got thousands of stories. We could sit here for hours. But, um, do you journal any of it? Or at least now you probably have some more BTS so you can maybe document some of these situations.
Speaker 1:Well, this kind of situations you don't really want to film that's true, but you, I mean you can write, write about them. Yeah, I can write about them and general stories of meeting people.
Speaker 1:I sometimes do the vlog, okay now but honestly, I don't have much time to to edit. I need just to hire someone to help me to edit and many times I just film the vlog on my smartphone. I have actual vlog from many of the places that I visited recently and I just need to find someone to help me with that plenty of people around indonesia can help you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, you mentioned russia. Do you? Do you miss, miss your your home country?
Speaker 1:well, I kind of miss it in the terms of traveling as well, because russia is fantastic, uh nature country. Unfortunately quite hard situation there at the moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I was traveling a lot do you have family back there at the moment?
Speaker 1:yeah, my, my family, my wife and kids, they're here in bali, but my parents they're there in russia, have a lot of friends from there and actually, well, I've loved a lot traveling there because this is the country where you actually get a real adventure when you travel, especially in the winter. Yeah, especially in the winter. So one of the winter adventures I had during pandemic I just went out with local community of, with nene's people. So there's indigenous people that live in the north of him Himal region and it was minus 40, minus 45 Celsius all the two weeks that I stayed with them.
Speaker 1:So I stayed with the people when they were migrating from the south to the north, the reindeer. They had about 3,000 reindeer and they migrated to the north with all these thousands of reindeer. So they assembled kind of trains with reindeer, so train by train. You know they and they move every day. So they assemble the gear tent and every day they needed to assemble it back in the new, new place you can't place. So imagine assembling thousands of reindeer in this kind of sledges, the trains. They put all the provisions, they put everything they have, and every day we moved more and more like hundreds of kilometers to the north of russia and we used to stay to help them, to stay with them in this kind of tense, in this crazy temperatures. So they were eating mostly reindeer. There was like a food for them, like a storage that then when they cut reindeer they they drink the blood of reindeer, like this warm blood, and then they cook some meat. So this is pretty much the only thing they eat out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was like that for two weeks. Then you travel even in the night and the northern lights because this is a polar region, so this is insane of roar and you're traveling with the reindeer and they gave me actual um, the snowmobile. So I was riding the snowmobile and trying to get over and take some pictures of dell, of them, document this lifestyle. So it's a bit far from landscape photography, but I did quite a unique project on the culture, on the portraits and these people.
Speaker 1:As a northman they're quite close to outsiders, so they first days they don't even want to show up to myself. I was just stick to one family, like all the woman, old, man that welcome me to the community. I bring some gifts, some money for them as well. So this that was the reason. But then later on. I was just. They see that I help them, I am the part of community and they kind of opened themselves to myself. This was the way to do this, this project. So after a week, after 10 days, I was already like the part of the family, let's say.
Speaker 2:What is it like back in Russia at the moment with your family? There Is everything just continuing as normal. Or have they experienced a lot of different difficulties and challenges with just living daily life? Because we don't hear much about it, do we?
Speaker 1:People just live their daily life, yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's just the same.
Speaker 1:Everywhere it's the same. I mean, whatever country we take which is under the conflict, as we take Iran, we take Pakistan, afghanistan, north Korea, let's's say, people leave what they get used to, they go to work, they leave the world, they, they just continue living whatever they have yeah. But if we take, uh, the geopolitical situation and things like return the moment, okay, okay, let's move on um, what is your?
Speaker 2:approach to personal branding and is it a kind of a deliberate business approach to creating a daniel corden brand, or do you, again, do you just not really pay much attention to that? Or is it a recommendation that you you advise to beginners to think about that kind of way of marketing yourself?
Speaker 1:yeah, of course, eventually your name will become your brand, it's for sure, yeah, and then, uh, I make this uh niche for myself as photography tours it's daniel cordon photography tour, so many people associate also tours it's daniel cordon photography tours, so many people associate also myself as as the leader, is organizer of photography trips. And then, uh depends how you present yourself. If you present yourself as an influencer, if you work with brands, with airlines, then, yeah, maybe you need to tell this the world about that. So don't be shy. Telling the world about, about your niche, about, uh, about what you do. Um, yeah, but again, it takes, takes some time. It takes maybe years and years it does, yeah, it does.
Speaker 2:You need important for people to be patient. I think, um, it's difficult. In that respect, then, what is the difference that you can maybe explain to us between good and great when it comes to photography or branding or business?
Speaker 1:Good and great. The great is the actual four of the good. It's not compatible. Sometimes.
Speaker 1:Sometimes being and doing great it actually it prohibits you to grow a certain moment.
Speaker 1:It's like the strive for perfection and what they see many photographers they they tend to be perfectionist, they tend to to do the things perfect and that actually stops you from growing. So sometimes, better doing things good with passion, but not trying to be great, and I find it many times, uh, basically in everything we do in photography tours as well, you're trying to be, we do in photography tours as well. You're trying to be, to be great, to maybe book some, some luxury hotels or bring people to the best spots every day, but then realize the people, they are too tired and that is the only thing they needed. It's just a one day of break, one day of spa or massage instead of going all the time out there in the fields. You just need to give them some break. Yeah, just relax, and then when you kill yourself like that, it's just uh, both in the, in the strife of being perfect, of being great, you just lose your passion. On that it's always also about about the balance and how do you avoid burnout?
Speaker 2:I mean you, you are one of the busiest photographers out there and what I can see, you must you know, you've experienced burnout before. How do you, how do you manage that these days?
Speaker 1:yeah, again, taking easy sometimes. Just, you don't take it easy. No, even you're not right. Actually, even on the trips that I do, I try to balance let's say, antarctica trips, antarctica trips what we did, we partnered with the best cruise ship out there. So on this cruise ship we have jacuzzis, we have spa, we have massages, people get rooms with balconies, so it's actually the best boat out there. Yes, it's not cheap. So our tours there were priced almost like 20 grand for two weeks, but people get the flight to Antarctica so they don't need to sail there for like three days to Antarctica, they just fly in two hours. You are there. So, of course, everything we include in the cost. But it's also comfortable for me as well as a tour leader, so it's comfortable.
Speaker 1:I don't get it uh like too tiring, too exhausting. I can go to gym, I can go. I can also have some time in the restaurant as well, and meanwhile we have absolutely amazing crew the local crew that help with the people, that help to bring them on 20 Zodiacs immediately just land on the shore. It works like a clock. So you always have some budget also to delegate some responsibilities to other people as well and trying to get everything yourself.
Speaker 1:That's also it kills you, and that helped me a lot at certain moment realize that I cannot do everything myself. I cannot drive the people, I cannot teach them, I cannot organize all the meals myself, which I was doing at the very beginning of my photography tours. Now we have, even if we go to remote destination, organized drivers, organized private chef, so the only thing I need to do is just to teach people and enjoy the trip myself. Yeah, so that helped me a lot. To organize the crew, organize helpers. Here in Bali, I have amazing guides, amazing locals like Odi, who take a lot of responsibility from myself on guiding people. Yes, I pay them very well for that, and well, that pays me back as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely yeah, good for you. What is more important for you, certainly on these trips, is it getting the photo or is it the encounter in terms of the experience, which which was more important of course, the experience itself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not just the final picture that we get, but it's just experiencing balinese culture, experiencing the food as well. Let's say when, when I travel, I had the, it's actually the worst job ever. You know, I need to go and taste some food in different restaurants. Oh, I even try different coffee shops, so you know how exhausting it is. So you know how exhausting it is. Jokes aside, yeah, it's just the part of the trips as well. It's not just the photos there, but I need to bring people also to some good restaurants.
Speaker 1:We go to Japan, let's say, we go to Japan. I bring them to some Japanese performances, like Kabuki theater in Japan, kyotooto, so they also experience a bit of culture. Because if you, if you don't admire, if you don't understand that you don't love, love the local culture, you will never get beautiful pictures of that. It's just the part of the passion understanding the local, local culture as well. So this is always part of my trips, my experiences, that I want to show them beautiful people. That's why we have all these stages with ligonk, with baronk dances, all over, balinese temples, balinese places.
Speaker 2:Not we just contribute to the local culture, but I teach people to and I transfer them the passion to, to the culture, to photography as well I feel like your um, your motivation is more towards an insular approach to photography, as in, you want to have this amazing experience within, within closed doors almost, and the photos are just kind of maybe something that comes from them.
Speaker 2:Right is there? Is there an importance for photographers to educate the, the outside world with displays of photographs and the story behind them, or do you? I guess that's where the question of the encounter or photo comes from, because if you, if you, put a lot of importance on a photo, it's because you want to show other people or educate other people or make people aware of impactful causes or whatever your story might be, especially when we're going to untold places with really interesting people that no one really knows about. You kind of need the photographic art and evidence to support the story that you're trying to tell. But I feel like with you and there's no right or wrong at all but I feel like with you that comes after just making sure you and your people, who've paid a lot of money to come, have the best experience possible. Am I correct in in saying that? Yeah?
Speaker 1:see. Also it's about the, you're correct. It's about the mission, it's about what you want to tell with your photography afterwards. This is quite essential part for me, because if we talk about the wild nature, I always try people, try to tell people, to give them idea how you treat the nature properly, that simple things like do not litter. If you go to Antarctica, let's say, you must protect the nature. So just put this mission in your words, in your descriptions, in your videos, whatever.
Speaker 1:If we're talking about the culture, like Balinese culture, let's say in particular, like we're here in Bali, in Indonesia, that I see there's a tendency that people, younger generations, they go to cities and they don't get involved too much in the traditions. But this is also what I want to tell, not just photographers around the world, but also to locals, that they must value, they must preserve the traditions as well. Yeah, that's why this is quite, quite essential, because with the modern global world, we're just mixing to some gray color and you see how much color in the costumes and traditions that balinese people do. Let's say, you go to some other countries, you see, like Adidas t-shirt, you can see just simple shorts and people don't wear these costumes. They don't pass the traditions anymore. They okay with some, with the classical Western culture with the global culture.
Speaker 2:I totally agree with you. But on the other side of the argument is that it might give the locals a better life. You know, being more westernized, being more commercialized, being more I, I guess, just you know merged with the kind of developed way of living, right, I mean, there's us on this side, as photographers and travelers, like well, we want to experience. For me, you have two types of beauty in the world. One is nature, which is both getting destroyed. But, you know, imagine a mountain range that was just a flat gray of nothing, right, this is.
Speaker 2:That is an analogy for human society these days, like we have, you know, a hundred years ago had all these different, even 50, 20 years ago had all these different nuances of cultures. Now it's becoming more homogenized and, like you said, just gray. You know, more and more people are becoming the same as more and more people and we're losing these beautiful traditions, beautiful ways of life. But for those people it might be more beneficial for them to become a little bit more, I guess, westernized and developed in in that way yeah, I have also many stories on this matter and let me tell you one story about masai people.
Speaker 1:So masai in africa had a separate project for them masai in samburu. I actually traveled with the tribe of Masai in Africa, just out there in the wild, camping with them, and I saw that a lot of Masai most of them in fact they flee like that in the cities and they actually they're quite good warriors, they're quite good in fights and protection. This is why most of the banks there in Kenya, they actually hired them as security. So Masai is quite famous for security. So what happens? And they appear in the city. They have these wages, classical security wages. They have the small house, the small home, but they're getting trapped there. Let's say they. Of course they lose the part of the cultural heritage, the in the safe environment of the city, but, uh, they trapped. They received this wage, the, enough to pay for the food for the small house, but nothing more. It's, it's, it's. It's a trap for them and it's more. Moreover, it's a trap of humanity as well, because when I traveled with my sign the wild, just by the broken branch On the path they can tell it was a little part. They're female, two years old. It went this direction. Let's say so they.
Speaker 1:They bear the knowledge about the planet, about the animals, about the world. And what happens next? The city starts getting more and more of the national park because no one cares anymore of the nature. Like them, they're not protecting it anymore. So they're like these small tribes, they're ambassadors of our knowledge of nature. And imagine we lose these people around the world to the big cities? So what will be left of our planet on the big scale? This is how I see the situation. So these people are small cultures. They bear the knowledge about our planet, about how to protect our planet, how to treat it well. So, eventually, the values they're changing. So they're changing to the, to the consuming, to the oil, to getting more money.
Speaker 1:So it's a money culture threat of consumerism is yeah upon us everywhere yeah, and it happens with all the small cultures the similar way around the world. So that's why, at a certain moment, I try to dedicate my work not just for landscape, but about the, but on the interaction of cultures with landscape, cultures that treat nature with respect yeah, and a part of that, a part of that nature, part of that landscape, what's your overall view on?
Speaker 2:I mean, I can, I can guess, but on nature today, the threat of climate change, the threat of the way humans treat this planet, how do you see it kind of devolving over the next couple of decades? And what can we do as both people but also as photographers? What can we do to help?
Speaker 1:people, but also as photographers. What can we do to help? What we can do to help the most thing we need to spread the message for protection of the nature. Yeah, that's that's why I travel to polar regions, always try to tell the story about what's happening with the polar regions and how can we protect the nature, how, how can we treat it Well, even just, let's say, by not littering, by admiring the nature, we already help the planet by living a bit more sustainable life that we have just by seeing, uh, this trash and trying to give the people a message not to litter, not to make the people a message not to litter, not to make the fire, just not to approach close to, let's say, bird colonies, not to disturb them. Just the simple things that help to educate younger generations why do you think people don't really care?
Speaker 1:that's. That's a good question. I think it's lack of education like this, because they they just used to see it what their parents doing, what the let's say what their older generation can just take the plastic bottle, throw it away, okay, I can do the same, just nothing is happening. It's not, it's not bad. So this is their mentality and they don't see the bigger picture what's happening. But if everyone will start spreading the simple messages around the world that I think the world will change for better.
Speaker 1:Even here in Indonesia we participated in some events, like I donated to seeding new mangroves. Even in the north of bali there were some research programs led by uh plateran hotels also they they just planted new mangroves there in the north, and mangroves they are lungs of the planet. It's they produce the most oxygen on the planet. And I also bring my kids and we seeded a few mangrove trees there and they put the names and it's so cool and the kids were really uh proud about that. And I think if more locals will be involved in that, it will also change our planet for for better, just keeping keeping it for better education has just everything, isn't it?
Speaker 2:it really is. I think that will always allow. The more aware you are of things, the more you end up caring about those things, or at least you use you. We don't know what we don't know, right, so we it's once. We do know something.
Speaker 1:Often the majority of humans care about what something, or they, at least they can make a conscious and responsible decision not to right yeah, with simple things like we have a small, we live in a small village in bali and here in lot on doing the boot. And then I saw some people from time to time. I bring my kids to the kindergarten, yeah, every morning, and I see people just throwing the trash in the river like the bags. So I simply stopped a few times and say some few words and smile to them like not being aggressive, but tell them that it's not good and this is that it pollutes, and show them some pictures, what's happening with the ocean. And then, uh, yeah, and this was certain time I didn't see them there anymore, so they stopped doing that.
Speaker 2:Just put it in another part of the river, yeah, as we wrap up, daniel, tell us something about yourself that no one else knows well, not so many people actually know that I'm also the father of three kids, of three daughters.
Speaker 1:The third daughter, she's two years old. She was born here in Bali. Yes, she's two years old, she was born in Bali. I spend quite a good time here with them when I'm here in Bali, so when I'm posting some images from around the world, so maybe I'm just sitting with my kids somewhere enjoying the sea that I like, also surfing, skiing a bit. When I go to Japan, I usually spend a few more days just skiing there, and this is something I usually don't some smaller resources such beautiful parts?
Speaker 1:yes, so some small resources. I usually don't Niseko and Akuba. Yeah, some smaller resources. Such beautiful parts? Yeah, so some small resources. I usually don't post much from there either.
Speaker 2:Yes, People forget that you know someone who has 2.3 million followers. They forget that, oh, it's actually a human that has a personal life, and you don't post everything about your personal life, right? Yeah, I don't post everything about your personal life.
Speaker 1:Right it's. Yeah, I think that's important. Yeah, I don't like posting about the keys or the personal things. Yeah, it's for me, it's like a sacred something.
Speaker 2:Yeah of course, and so it should be. We're gonna finish with um, a lucky dip conversation card and um. So if I ask you to just pick any card and hand it to me and I'll ask it to you, oh, okay.
Speaker 1:Ready. I like tricky questions.
Speaker 2:When it all gets too dark, what helps you find the light?
Speaker 1:This could be literal, I guess, in a photographic sense but, I, think the question is more philosophical than well, actually it's a very good question, because for every photographer, I'm sure there is a part where you inspired and the part where you are in some depression also, because everything you do is just you do yourself. It's always ups and downs and this is also about the previous question that sometimes I do not want to share about that. When things get dark, like when I got some serious injury that we talked about last year, things were absolutely dark. I didn't even know that I can move or not. But then what happened next? All my friends from lombok, even from bali, they come to hospital. They bring some chicken satay, they bring some grilled fish to me and then the food in hospital was terrible actually, it was really bad. But then everyone bring a lot of food. We had like a festival there. I was still on the bed like that. But seeing all the friends, seeing them smiling and having fun, that actually brings the light. Yeah and people.
Speaker 1:Yes, so when you feel and when I feel, sometimes dark or depressed, it's not just about the photography. Sometimes I don't have inspiration even to take my camera out. I I just go hang out with some other photographers, I talk to them and, well, this is where I get the light from. From other people it's just the passing, the sparkle.
Speaker 2:What a wonderful answer and a great way to end the show. Thank you so much. You've given us a lot of light and a lot of inspiration, as you have done with millions of people, so thank you so much for coming and I look forward to going shooting with you at some point in Bali for sure, yeah, that's my pleasure.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much Thanks.