Say hello via text message and join in the conversation!
Pat Kay is a renowned photographer, content creator and now podcast host. So it seemed apt to hone in on the dissonance between art and content creation, and if indeed it's just an illusion.
Pat, with his wealth of experience across various creative domains, also talks frankly about the homogenization of 'art' in today's social media-driven culture. And together we discuss a label transformation from 'artist' to 'content creator' where we can be commercially savvy, without losing the soul of artistic integrity. It's a candid, but needed, look at the compromises needed to flourish in an era where digital presence is king.
We discuss many other topics as well, including the importance of digital assets, business-drivers in photography, the difference between good and great, and the future of photography in general. Pat also shares with me his transition to vlogging and podcasting, and how building a new community in Japan has sparked both personal growth and creative rejuvenation. We touch on the ethical quandaries of contributing to social media and consider our artistic responsibilities amidst the rising tide of AI in creative fields.
Find Pat's work on his platforms below:
Website: https://patkay.com/
Instagram: @pat_kay
YouTube: @patkay
____________________________________________
Thank you for listening and for being a part of this incredible community. You can also watch this episode on my YouTube channel (link below) where I also share insights, photography tips and behind-the-scenes content on my channel as well as my social media, so make sure to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and TikTok or check out my website for my complete portfolio of work.
yoreh.
www.yoreh.co
discount code: moodpdcst.23
My FREE eBook:
www.form.jotform.com/240303428580046
My FREE Lighting Tutorial:
www.mattjacobphotography.com/free-tutorial-sign-up
YouTube:
www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay
Website:
www.mattjacobphotography.com
Socials:
IG @mattyj_ay | X @mattyj_ay | YouTube @mattyj_ay | TikTok @mattyj_ay
Say hello via text message and join in the conversation!
Pat Kay is a renowned photographer, content creator and now podcast host. So it seemed apt to hone in on the dissonance between art and content creation, and if indeed it's just an illusion.
Pat, with his wealth of experience across various creative domains, also talks frankly about the homogenization of 'art' in today's social media-driven culture. And together we discuss a label transformation from 'artist' to 'content creator' where we can be commercially savvy, without losing the soul of artistic integrity. It's a candid, but needed, look at the compromises needed to flourish in an era where digital presence is king.
We discuss many other topics as well, including the importance of digital assets, business-drivers in photography, the difference between good and great, and the future of photography in general. Pat also shares with me his transition to vlogging and podcasting, and how building a new community in Japan has sparked both personal growth and creative rejuvenation. We touch on the ethical quandaries of contributing to social media and consider our artistic responsibilities amidst the rising tide of AI in creative fields.
Find Pat's work on his platforms below:
Website: https://patkay.com/
Instagram: @pat_kay
YouTube: @patkay
____________________________________________
Thank you for listening and for being a part of this incredible community. You can also watch this episode on my YouTube channel (link below) where I also share insights, photography tips and behind-the-scenes content on my channel as well as my social media, so make sure to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and TikTok or check out my website for my complete portfolio of work.
yoreh.
www.yoreh.co
discount code: moodpdcst.23
My FREE eBook:
www.form.jotform.com/240303428580046
My FREE Lighting Tutorial:
www.mattjacobphotography.com/free-tutorial-sign-up
YouTube:
www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay
Website:
www.mattjacobphotography.com
Socials:
IG @mattyj_ay | X @mattyj_ay | YouTube @mattyj_ay | TikTok @mattyj_ay
In terms of where I see photography going. Man, it's hard.
Speaker 2:Do you think the creativity is becoming a little bit stripped out of our daily lives?
Speaker 1:People don't really think for themselves anymore.
Speaker 2:Kind of feel a sentiment from you that you've fallen out of love with photography a little bit.
Speaker 1:If you asked anyone five years ago what photography would be like, they would not say. You put your images into reels and that's how you grow as a photographer.
Speaker 2:What is your overall opinion of social media, if you?
Speaker 1:are playing to win, then that means short form video. That doesn't necessarily mean it feels good. There's nothing worse than someone wanting to be your friend because you have X amount of followers on Instagram.
Speaker 2:Is AI a big part of your systems?
Speaker 1:Your job is going to be in jeopardy very, very soon.
Speaker 2:Where does your creativity come from? Let's dive into the art versus content. Art, in my context anyway, is context anyway, is Mr Pat Kay Extremely excited to welcome you to the move podcast.
Speaker 1:Thanks for joining. Hello, Thank you for having me Very very excited.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I thought I'd start by asking you a question which I think is right in your wheelhouse right now, because we're obviously going to talk about, you know, the changes you made on on your kind of direction and new things you're bringing out, and I thought so. I thought I'd ask with a question about creativity. Do you think that, as we are moving on in the world, do you think that creativity is becoming a little bit stripped out of our daily lives?
Speaker 1:stripped out of our daily lives?
Speaker 1:Um, tough one to say from, I guess, a a day-to-day perspective for like an ordinary person, but I know, in terms of as a creative person, I think creativity in general it's not being stripped out per se.
Speaker 1:In my opinion, it's more becoming homogenized. So, you know, for people who don't really understand the, the, the true depth of that, that word it's, it's it's more along the lines of, like you know, milk, for example, has to become kind of broken down, to be processed by humans so that we can then digest it and all the rest of it. It's this process of breaking things down so they become uniform and acceptable. And I think, in terms of creativity, today, that is most certainly happening. You know, you see everyone trend jacking, for example, these days on reels and short form content and all these kinds of things. And whilst there are pros and cons for those actions, the homogenization means that people don't really think for themselves anymore. They just get little pieces and little prompts in order to do something that is creative don't get me wrong but is not necessarily original or unique in any way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I talk about that a lot as, as well, the difference between uniqueness and originality. I think you see, I asked that question because I totally agree with you. I see it all the time. As people get more access to platforms, technology, education, it's so, you know, ubiquitous, right? It's so much easier for people who are not necessarily original in their own thinking, or maybe they are, but it's it's easier just to take from someone else right and emulate or imitate, rather than actually, you know, be truly creative. So how does that affect you right now, as you're sat here, being a creative for? Or maybe you can tell us your background in a minute, but for a long time, right, you've been doing this for a very long time. Um, how? Or maybe you can tell us your background in a minute, but for a long time, right, you've been doing this for a very long time. How are you having to adapt with that kind of competition or change as we move forward?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, as a little bit of a background I've been doing, I've been a full-time creative, for you know, coming up to very close to 20 years now, across many different disciplines, and photography for me has been something that is definitely in the latter half of that, coming up to a decade now.
Speaker 1:But really, the process to answer your question is really one of adaptation, and as I get older, I think, the more I let go from the, the previous kind of stance that I had on art versus content, which is something that I think about um, quite a lot uh, and I've I've let go a lot of, of a lot of the, the kind of things that hold you back as an artist, in the context of being a person who strives to make their art commercially acceptable and, you know, as as an artist who tries to uh create a business for themselves, to create a life that they love.
Speaker 1:For me, the, the idea of, like you know, competition and, especially in this current scenario that we have, of just like a like a creative explosion, essentially of of people just making content all the time, all this this short form content going on, I think, yeah, it's just adaptation, it's really about letting go. For me personally, anyway, letting go of the the prejudices that I held before in terms of like art needs to be a certain way, uh, and then adapting and adopting to what's going on around me now in order to, to survive and to thrive give us a bit of background and you know how you you did start and what was around, when you know in terms of available to you when you did start okay, creme, if I'm wrong that you know you started purely as a photographer right, uh, so I mean, my very, very beginnings is actually from design.
Speaker 1:So, in terms of overall art, um, you know, I I first started as a graphic designer, uh, way back when.
Speaker 1:You know, even before that I I have been messing around with photoshop since, like, I was 13 years old. But I started off as a graphic designer, moved into web design, moved into UX design and then finally into product and then from there I did a complete like 180 and then jumped straight into photography, and so, in terms of the you know, the industries, the creative industries that I've seen, anyway, it's, it's been, it's been interesting because the views of both you know, product design and, uh, photography and social media in general are actually quite, uh, quite similar. You know, the progression of the internet and the progression of social media in general are actually quite, quite similar. You know, the progression of the internet and the progression of social media over time has been something that I think a lot of artists just end up adopting and, you know, just just gravitating and evolving into, regardless of of what kind of industry and background that they have. And, yeah, so it's definitely an adaptation process.
Speaker 2:Let's dive into the art versus content subject a little bit, because it is quite contentious. It's also quite gray in terms of the definitions of both and how to overlap and can you overlap? And what's better and what's good for good for society, what isn't? Does it even matter? Give us your you know, as your opinions or your philosophies around those two pillars change. Give us where you are at the moment in terms of your definitions of each, how you position yourself within you know, the middle or one of those types of purpose.
Speaker 1:Yeah, tricky, tricky and loaded Um, and I think, yeah, one thing that I've learned over time is to actually give myself a little bit of grace and a little bit of leeway on changing my answer about this over time. Because you know your experiences change over time and circumstances change over time and needs change over time. Because you know your experiences change over time and and circumstances change over time and needs change over time and all these kind of things. But the general gist of how I see art versus content is art, in my, my context anyway, is very much about self-expression in the purest form for myself. And then the content side of things isn't necessarily art per se, but it is the creation of something that serves a greater maybe not actually greater, but most certainly a different purpose. So the way I see art and content in a practical sense for me nowadays is I take photos for myself as art. I travel a lot, I live in Japan, I'm always doing domestic travel here and I'm always going out to taking photos and documenting my experiences out there. That for me is and feels more like art. And then there will be cases where to feed the business, to feed, you know, social media, to feed my clients. Even I have to create or use the skills that I would use for my art to make content.
Speaker 1:And the content side of things is, you know, sometimes some of the things that I make as art turn up and end up being content. But I think the differences between the two for me right now is the context to which they lie in and the wrapping and the container to which they live in. Right, so you know where I might take a photo for myself as art at a beautiful landscape location, or what have you? When I package that up in a four by five crop factor, you know, at 1350 by 1080 pixels on Instagram, that is then content. And same thing with, you know, if I'm rolling with a piece of, you know, piece of content for a campaign or something like that, you know, I will make sure that the things that are towards the objective are getting, you know, done as content. But I'm using the skills for my art to to feed all of that.
Speaker 1:And so, you know, for me, I used to have a very uh, I don't know, I don't know what the right word is, but I used to have a little bit of a negative stance towards art versus content. I used to be very all about art. That's the world that I came from. That is the kind of mindset that I was brought up in. I was very into the whole art mindset, into the whole art mindset. Um, and then, as I've grown my business over time, more and more content kind of mindset has started to to to play in to what I do, and so now I'm very much half half, very much in the middle. You know, I make sure to feed my artistic side, but I also make sure to feed my, my content. I also make sure to feed my my content side as well.
Speaker 2:should we care about that question anyway, or those topics should? Should we even care? If they're conflated with each other, are we just happy that they are? They are their own entities and, depending on which, what intent you you have behind you in creating content or creating art, it doesn't matter. I mean, I'm kind of probably where you were in terms of kind of this negative standpoint on the whole content culture that we find ourselves in, because I think it gets abused a little bit and I think it now becomes a status game more than anything, rather than like an integrity game.
Speaker 2:That's a complete generalization, not to say there aren't some fantastic content creators out there who are hugely valuable, hugely inspirational. But I just generally go back to the modernization and ubiquitous nature of being able to create content. And it could be the most banal content, but if it gets clicks and you get paid for it, then you're just going to keep doing it and that can only be bad for the world generally, you know, without being too grandiose. So I'm kind of, I'm still there, I'm working my way through it, but uh, you know, does it even? Does it even matter? We just accept it and and kind of make it worth our while, depending on what we want to do.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think it matters more in the sense of having intentionality behind both of those things. So you mentioned integrity and I 100% agree. If you asked me this question four or five years ago, I would have said you know probably the same questions as you in reply. But over time I've realized that you know integrity as, like you, don't always need to have integrity for the one side of you that you feel most righteous about. Um, at least that has been my experience. So what I kind of came to the conclusion of for myself is you know integrity can exist not only in you as an artist, creating things to express in the purest form, but it can also exist in terms of the content that you make. You know you can be, you can hold a level of integrity for the content that you make towards, uh, you know building your personal brand or towards, you know, facilitating the needs of a client for a campaign or, to a lesser degree, uh, integrity towards building your social media platform and doing it for clout and all the rest of it. But to say that, one the benefits of the other, my, my life. I don't necessarily want to be too hard on the art side anymore because, whilst I like, absolutely enjoy the outside and that is most certainly necessary I have found that a balance of of art and content has been far more beneficial than leaning too far towards one or the other.
Speaker 1:Um being said, you mentioned social media and just the constant battle towards clout and chasing, fame and fortune and all the rest of it.
Speaker 1:I most certainly don't disagree with you. I think there are many, many examples, perhaps now more so than ever, that, of people who lean too far into the content side of things and that's all they do and that's all they chase, that's all they want, and don't stop to realize that they, for themselves, can lead an equally fulfilling life. On the other, as a creative person, you understand the differences between the two and the conflation of them together and how you can bring those two parts into your process, because we all, as creative people, have some kind of artistic side and we also have some kind of content side. So for me, the answer, the answer is really about how you can take those two things and mash them together and create, that you know, effectively, a life that you love in doing so together and create that, you know, effectively a life that you love in doing so, which you you seem to have done, which we'll get on to a minute, but the, I think, content.
Speaker 2:You know that. I think the problem we face is we're a little bit snobby. We, as in the proverbial, we, as artists, we're a little bit snobby, you know. It's like oh, oh well, you know, content creators can't be artists, right, but artists can be content creators. You know, we can go into your world and we can mix and match, but you guys, no, no, no, you're just a YouTuber. You can't, you don't know what art means, which is obviously bullshit. You know, we're all creatives.
Speaker 2:Depending on how you define creative, which I think is an extremely difficult word to define, I think they can both coexist in a happy medium. The problem is probably us, us as an artist, who don't want them to come over to our side, if you know what I mean. But creating content, you're inputting a level of art. Whether that's a huge level of art or a good quality level of art, you know that's up to the viewer and the audience, I guess. But how have you done it? So, on the outset, it seems like you have found that balance really well.
Speaker 2:I know you've taken some recent shifts in terms of maybe I don't know keeping the content level up there, but doing it in a different way with your new account, doing more vlogs and stuff like that. Give us a background into your content creation world with, you know, having so much success on YouTube and being the educator that people look up to and and having integrity. I think that's why you are so revered in this space. I think that's why you are so revered in this space. You make it genuine about you, but with quality content and with value. So give us an idea, all of us who want to be artistic and giving value on YouTube and also growing. How do we do it? What's the secret? Or?
Speaker 1:what's been working for you in that space. I mean, thank you for the, the lovely words, um, most certainly very high praise. I don't know if I'm deserving of, but, um, yeah, I think, for for me, I am fortunate to have been in a position where I can effectively compartmentalize what I'm creating, and it's just something that's been on my mind for ever since I started. You know Instagram and and photography and stuff like that. This idea that, like my, my life has, has certain bubbles, you know, certain compartments that things go into, and I have a different mindset when I go into all these different things. Um, as it pertains to the, to the YouTube space, you know it's it.
Speaker 1:It is one about authenticity and trying to be helpful and valuable to people, first and foremost, but it is also, and and this might you know, I guess um bemoan some people to say, but youtube for me is most certainly content first, um, I've tried in the past to make it more artistic, but I think as a, as a vehicle that attaches to my, my overall business, as as a, you know, an artist, as a quote, unquote influencer although we all hate that word uh, as a photographer, you know, um, youtube for me is most certainly has been beneficial for the business side of things, and so that's why I've been taking more of a content stance towards it, and this is pre the, the podcast that I'm doing Um, but that also allows me, as content, to make it better in terms of value, so I can put more value into the videos because I see it as content, because I can systematize it and structure it in a certain way and make sure I'm hitting all the beats of value that I'm trying to deliver on something that, to me, is most certainly content value that I'm trying to deliver on something that to me is is most certainly content.
Speaker 1:Um, and hopefully, what do you mean? The beats? So so, like as in um, sorry, when I, when I say beats of of a of a given video, um, I just mean like overall, like touch points in in the overall story. You know the beginning, middle, the end or the points that I want to come across and all the rest of it. But, yeah, the direction for me in YouTube and I've been fortunate to treat YouTube like content, but also not as a piece of critical, like a critical pillar in my overall creative business YouTube for me is not that. So I've had the liberty of being able to pivot to doing this podcast, because I want to serve people but I also get. Well, I also have been kind of bored recently of doing it in the way that I have done it over the last few years, and so the question was always you know, how can I continue delivering value but do it in a way that feels more creatively energizing for this current stage of my life? And so that's why I've pivoted the main channel into a podcast channel, for now, at least for the first, you know, dozen, two dozen episodes, while I sorted out and even figure out whether I like podcasting or not, you know, I haven't even done that, and but giving myself the grace of being like, okay, I'm just gonna see how it goes, and and treat this as an experiment and then, you know, reassess later, um, I think is very, very important.
Speaker 1:And then the other is a second channel for vlogs, which is effectively me making videos, very roughly, that serve as, uh, time capsules for my life while I'm in Japan, because I just recently moved here.
Speaker 1:I do a lot of travel here and have been since, you know, 2016, 2017. And I want to make sure that I have something that I can look back on and, you know, have some fond memories of, you know, have some fond memories of, frankly, and then, if that also happens to, then, you know, help other people or entertain other people with the content that I make there, then that's fantastic and that will be great. Aside from that, you know, instagram for me is a blend of both art and content. The art side of things is most certainly my passion, which is photography, so anytime I'm sharing a set of images, that for me, is is me trying to, to demonstrate the art that that I love doing. Uh, and then, on Instagram, all the short form content, all the video stuff is most certainly content, for you know the algorithm and the rest of all of the business side of things and you know how it goes.
Speaker 2:How much time, then, do you spend compartmentalizing these, you know? Or how much time do you spend doing your YouTube? Spend doing your youtube, doing your socials and building that side of your business? And then what else is there outside of the digital space that you you kind of turn your attention to, ie photography and client jobs and things like that?
Speaker 1:give us an idea of roughly what percentages they make up of your, your overall model in terms of, like my overall time spent working, or are you referring to like just living life?
Speaker 2:no, I just mean like, yeah, working, but within your work, how much of that is the time you spend making videos? How much of it is you know selling digital, creating digital assets? How much of it is client work? How much of it is you know selling digital, creating digital assets? How much of it is client work?
Speaker 1:how much of it is just getting just going out and shooting, like we all seem to forget to do that a lot of the time honestly, yeah, yeah, um, I I would say on on that, most certainly less time that I want to spend out shooting, uh, but also, you know, you go through seasons and and get inspired to do certain things. Or cherry blossom season here in Japan just recently finished up and I was shooting like crazy for that. So it varies, like all good answers do, and I think spending time making content is perhaps the majority of time that I spend working, which actually for me is not ideal. I would much rather spend half the time working on the business side of things. But I've set the business up in such a way that I've kind of done it once and it's quite hands-off for the most part, which is lovely, freeing me up for like 75 content time really, uh, but realistically I would like to have that as like half content, half business. But I'm I've got a new thing starting, you know of, on this podcast, and so I've got to pay that attention uh, at least for the next couple of months, and so it's it's unfeasible for me to to give myself such high standards for for that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:Um, but yeah, on the the content side, I would say YouTube takes up the most amount of time. Making videos is a very slow process and I don't have an editor and I'm currently trying to find one and it, it, it's, it's, it's a lot, um, doing photos is actually quite quick. So the editing process for me, as, as I'm sure you can relate, um for photos is is, you know, it's very streamlined, um, and for me it's it is very quick. It's very streamlined, um, and for me it's it is very quick, uh, and so I would say, in terms of like, let's say, youtube versus photos and Instagram, youtube is like maybe 80% and then the photo is like 20% of the time. From there in the business, uh, you know, digital products is is my, my shtick and that's where I do make the bulk of my, my income and honestly, like I would say, the digital product side of things is is the the largest part, but it's, in the relative scheme of of of my overall week, not that big of a time commitment at all.
Speaker 2:So I guess that's the beauty of digital products, right Is? You spend obviously a lot of time and effort creating the first one, then maybe a few iterations, but once they're there, you've got to push it a little bit. Do some marketing, be present, be online and just do what you normally do. Anyway, that's the beauty of it. But yeah, you've got some fantastic products.
Speaker 2:If you were to recommend anyone you know out of all of them, uh, you know which one would you say is your favorite, or at least the best for budding young budding photographers?
Speaker 1:uh, definitely my courses.
Speaker 1:I mean both as a consumer or if you are a beginner wanting to build your own digital product, like on both sides.
Speaker 1:Um, I think courses are amazing, especially if you have, you know, not a lot of time to learn, um, and you want to learn from someone who has been there and done that and have the accolades and all the rest of it, um, but then also on the flip side of someone who has been there and done that and have the accolades and all the rest of it, but then also on the flip side of someone who has been in the game for a little while and wants to start making their photography a full-time thing, you know, and they want to do digital products, then I would highly recommend that as a thing to do as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I am very bullish on courses, but I'm bullish on digital products just in general as well. You know, I sell a bunch of like photography guides. I was, you know, as far as I know, the very first person, first creator, to make a photography guide book online many, many years ago, and I'm extremely bullish on that as well. So, you know all, all of all of the digital products, man, I uh definitely highly recommend.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I bought your Japan one a while ago. I used to spend a lot of time in Japan and, um, figured, if I'm going to spend time here, I might as well do some shooting, um, but yeah, I the the quality of of your certainly those guides, um, or any of your others, but the, the, the graphic design caliber definitely comes through in all of your visuals and your aesthetics, um, which is just fantastic. I love, I love the way you design things and also explain things. So you know one other reason, but I perceive your YouTube to be so, so good and so valuable and successful. We're going to touch on, you know, maybe you're going to stop doing that a little bit but the education side of things. Why? Why the education side of things? Was it an easy route to go down? Did you find you know teaching people or compartmentalizing, how to explain things, an easy thing for you? Um, and if so, like, give give us some advice how to kind of explain things easily?
Speaker 1:um, so the whole teaching thing really came from my previous career as a product designer. Um, you know, product design ux design specifically and then and then learning how to do product management and and all the rest of it and combine those things together. I think is is such a like we think of photography as such a huge skill set with like a whole bunch of sub skills and subcategories and stuff like that, but compared to, let's say, like anything in product design, it's gigantic. There's so much to learn and, being you know, in the industry for so long, I was in a position where I would have to teach a lot of the people that I was managing and you know I would always run workshops and in product design we would use these things called design tools, which are effectively pockets of knowledge and technical know-how of how to deliver a certain thing in an efficient manner, and it really breaks down the explanation process of of how you get a point across, of how people pay attention to certain things, or you know how, even how you deliver a message using your tone of voice and using pacing. All of those, those little aspects of how to deliver a message, were things that I could leverage in my YouTube career and in explaining things to people in a photography context you know there are.
Speaker 1:I love to workshop. Well, I used to love to workshop anyway, where I would get you know for, for you know, say, we were building a feature or something like that. You know, just getting people in a room and then having a whiteboard and then facilitating the brainstorming session of you know how we would solve a given product or feature or issue or whatever the case may be. That was my jam. I loved doing that, and so trying to translate that to YouTube meant that I was doing things like trying to break down a concept abstractly, explain that abstraction, but then also give examples of that extraction, because people learn in different ways.
Speaker 1:There are a lot of cases where I discovered along the journey that, conceptually, when you explain something, maybe half of the population understands what you're saying and can, like get it off the concept alone, but then the other half is like what are you talking about? What is this? Um, and you know, combining those two and giving a practical like OK, this is the nuts and bolts of how you actually do something and the concept of it and then explaining it in a way that is Easy to understand, but less like I explain this to you like a five year old, but but maybe I explained this to you like a 15-year-old or something like. That Is my general formula of like how I teach anything really.
Speaker 2:So now you maybe taking a step away from that a little bit in terms of the education stuff on YouTube.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, and I talked about this on my most recent podcast, I think, um, but I am kind of bored of teaching the same photographic concepts over and over again. You know, photography is a finite skill and there's only so many things you can teach, and there's only so many things you can teach and there's only so many ways you can teach it. And especially if you have a very specific or unique way of teaching that thing, then it's repeatable-ness. It's just not great, like you end up having to explain the same concepts over and over again in the same way, and for me, that's incredibly boring as a person who is a creative and needs new stimulus and needs new input to make things to a higher caliber.
Speaker 1:You know, I once very, very many, many, many, many years ago, heard this idea of how creativity works, and this was like very, very early on in my graphic design career, but I've never forgot it and it is really in my mind. The idea of how creativity works is like like a, you know, like a galaxy of stars, right, and all of these stars are different nodes of, you know, knowledge or inspiration, and it is the the conjoining and, you know, the network of all of these different nodes that lead to more creative output. And so when the nodes are stale and you know you don't get any new sensory input or there there isn't um you know, new, fresh inspiration coming in, you don't have any new associations to make. And so for me, I was I'm very cognizant of that for my YouTube channel and constantly having to repeat the same nodes of how to teach photography over and over and over again, it gets a little bit stale for me. So that's why I decided to move on and do something else, and now I'm a podcast host.
Speaker 2:How are you finding that? Tell us a little bit about the podcast and your experience of it so far.
Speaker 1:It's been fun. It's been fun I tried to leverage a lot of my product design researching days, because in product design, especially in UX design, we had to interview people a lot, because in order to understand the motivations and thoughts of a given feature or product or whatever, you would have to ask people and you would have to interview people in a certain way so that you know exactly whether or not the thing that you're building is the right thing to begin with and the solution that you're creating is the right thing. And I thought I could leverage that and I'm trying to leverage that as a creative podcast creator now, I'm finding that it's hard to keep a conversation flowing in the way that I want to sometimes, and that's been a whole like kind of skill that I've had to develop over time, which has been very interesting and quite fulfilling actually. But I like the process, I like understanding more about people.
Speaker 1:You know I maybe to my own detriment have only interviewed people that I know right now and I know somewhat well right now, um, and I know somewhat well, um, and that will be a new challenge when I interview someone completely different who I know nothing about and I've only researched, you know, the day before or whatever. Um, but it's been an incredibly fun process, you know, finding uh, new ways to set up a podcast, to deliver it, to package it up in in. In a certain way, I decided to go for a more cinematic viewing experience. So, you know, I've got the reverse lighting going on, I've got heavy contrast and a lot of shadows and and all the rest of it just to make the visuals kind of interesting. And then the general throughput of the through line of the conversation is about, you know, creative success and how full-timers have made it effectively doing what they love doing. And so, yeah, it's just been a new creative challenge and it's been really fun.
Speaker 2:And how? Let's reverse that question onto yourself how do you define your success or future success, and how do you know if you've made it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the. I think it's like you have. There's this analogy of like and I'm going to butcher this but your goals are like climbing a mountain right, and you have all these trials and tribulations along the way and eventually you reach the summit of this mountain only to find that, you know, over yonder there's a bigger mountain, and so you have to climb down and then summit that mountain. And so I think, for me, the idea of success is a lot like that Once you've reached the top of a given mountain, knowing that there's always going to be another one, and that success is not really necessarily a place you arrive at and stay at, but it should be something that is constantly moving.
Speaker 1:And so, you know, for me, previously, especially in the last maybe four or five years, my, my definition of success was really achieving a level of financial and time freedom, uh, such that I could go and do the things that I love doing. And especially in the last maybe one or two years, I've found a lot of that success. But now I'm on the journey of finding the next mountain to climb. I don't necessarily know what that is or what like the hard definition of that success looks like, but I know that it involves helping as many people as I can and really being of value to the community that I'm in the the community that I'm in, and I know that it involves a level of me sharing my journey and the story of of how I got here. So it's not concrete, but that's the best I can come up with do you worry that?
Speaker 2:uh, worries the wrong word. But do you? Does it become concerning to you, if you kind of shift gears a little bit like you've done, that you might lose some of your previously loyal audience, certainly on the digital space like YouTube?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think tactically yes, and that was something that I knew 100% going into it. I have spoken to a lot of different successful creators on YouTube and the consensus is that, 100%, I'm going to lose a lot of my audience. Frankly, pivoting to doing this thing, I won't lose the people who were serious about being a creative, which is the main persona that I was targeting anyway, because if you are a serious creative, then learning from other serious creatives is most certainly going to be, you know, a prerogative for you. Um, I think there's a common misconception that my audience, my, my potential audience to target was always like beginner photographers and to some degree, that's true, but to like the, the real core of it was you can be a beginner photographer, but are you serious about being a good one, right? Um, and and I was always looking for that intentional creative, that intentional person who wants to do the best that they can in whatever they do, and that's the person that I was targeting and that's the person that I want to keep on the channel. And so, like I said before, you know, I think I was very fortunate to have the freedoms to be able to pivot in YouTube, because so many of so much of the other side of my life.
Speaker 1:The business side of things is, uh, quite successful, and so YouTube was never and my audience is never like the main pillar of you know what drives my, my success in terms of time freedom and financial freedom and those kinds of things. So I have the creative freedom and the liberty to to do that and make that change, um, but, yeah, I, I don't mind it. I know it means that less people are going to see it, um, but I'll just, you know, build it up and and we'll, we'll see how it goes. Like I said, it's, it's an experiment and it might not be forever, but it might be. I, I honestly, I just don't, I don't know, but I definitely want to give it a chance, because the alternative, which was staying and and doing what I was doing previously, is not something that keeps me very creatively fulfilled and that, above all else, is is then like is the most important thing so whether the podcast is essentially to replace your education videos or are you still going to do a few photography education videos?
Speaker 1:the plan is at the moment to replace it completely and then limit the education portion to like online paid effectively.
Speaker 1:So you know I do beginner style courses already but the plan is to bolster that out and build that out significantly more as courses and have the podcast be effectively like a lead funnel for that and so that way I can kind of coming back to compartmentalizing again, yeah, just segregate the audiences and those kinds of things in a way that makes more sense to me and that to me feels better because the education stuff.
Speaker 1:You know I would argue that for me it takes longer than the average person to make a good piece of educational content because I really care about how it's delivered and I'm very thoughtful about how I structure things.
Speaker 1:You know there is a flow and a cadence and a sensibility for how things connect. How things connect and I have, especially in my last courses, have really enjoyed the creation process of how the course flows from start to finish, how you have all these different beats and how all the beats connect together and how at the end, once you've gone through it all, it's like okay, now I have this gigantic web of understanding and I can't do that on a single YouTube video, or even like a series of YouTube videos, for that matter, like it's. You know, the daily grind or the weekly grind of a YouTube channel is so hardcore that it's hard to plan, you know, for a 20 video series on a given topic or whatever. But for me it's much easier to compartmentalize that as a course that I can then, you know, have live elsewhere and have more tight control over.
Speaker 2:Also, there's the argument that that kind of stuff shouldn't be free. If you're going to go into a level of depth, that is, 20 videos of 20 minutes each, you know it's. It's great that YouTube allows free access, especially free education, but they, you know, there has to be a point where it's like, you know, we're so used to getting everything for free. It's like social media is free. Well, it should be the other way around. You know, how much are you willing to pay for your Instagram access? How much are you willing to pay for YouTube access?
Speaker 2:Um, and there was a point on the other side, as the people producing those videos, producing that content, it's like, hang on a minute, you know, put it, I know how I've just done my first course. My goodness, I mean, I was going into it thinking, you know, know, this is going to be a lot of work, and then, when I started writing it and filming it, oh, my goodness, it's, it's a lot, and I, you know, I, I wouldn't dream of of undervaluing that or at least put it, giving it away for free, right, unless there was another intent behind that. So, um, yeah, I don't really have a yeah yeah, I, yeah, I was going to.
Speaker 1:I was going to mention, like the, the pain I empathize with tremendously. You know, my last course was 45,000 words condensed down and and your average novel is, like you know, 20,000 words or whatever it is, and so, like, doing that level of work on something is insanely, it's insanely valuable. But it's also, to your point, like something you should be paying for. You know something where you have, like, yeah, it's incredible the amount of free things you can learn from YouTube. But also, you know, to have someone accelerate that for you and not have you looking around doing search queries on YouTube for days and days and days, you know is tremendously valuable and worth paying for, I think. Anyway.
Speaker 2:And I think it's evergreen. You know it'll always be here. And that kind of leads me on to my next question with you. Was this pivot a deliberate decision based on where you think the future of your business is most opportune, or do you, was it just a feat more from the gut and intuition, like, yeah, I just bought this. I want to do something different. I have an interest in talking to other creators, or I, I'm guessing, but like me as a bit of both yeah, it's definitely a bit of both, um, a lot of reasons uh, coalescing together.
Speaker 1:You know, there there's the most certainly the financial side of things, where I wanted to build out my, my learning platforms and help people in that way.
Speaker 1:There was the creative side of things, where I am was bored with what I was doing and then wanted something new and something fresh. And then there's even, like, the personal side of things, right, so you know, I'm new to Japan. I don't know that many people here. You know, as a person who has moved to a different country, I'm sure you can relate. But building up a network of people here honestly, through a podcast, is my own selfish, like um, thing. You know, meeting the creators here and and and building my network here and, and you know everyone in Japan who is a creative. I would love to meet them, you know, and start to make friends, and I mentioned this on on my last podcast.
Speaker 1:But you know, in Sydney, when I first started photography, I like one of the first things that I did was was build a gigantic community and you know there was like 20, 30, 40 of us that were pretty close in Sydney and then me and my two other mates, we used to run huge like I'm talking hundreds and hundreds of people, like photo walks in Sydney, and having a sense of community in that way is just something that was just so amazing. I wouldn't replicate it again to that degree here in Tokyo, but I most certainly want to make new friends and find the other creatives here. But I most certainly want to make new friends and, and you know, find the other creatives here. So on top of that, you know, there's also the personal development side of things.
Speaker 1:For me is like I am most normally in quite a big introvert and I I like my time alone, um, you know, I am seen more at home than anywhere else, you know, and getting people into my studio and interacting with them is a great way to to bolster against that and to to really aid my own self-development in that way. So many, many reasons, many, many reasons. And that is not to say again that it's the right reason, that it's the right decision. Sorry, but like it it might be, um, and I'm just going to see how it goes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like talking into a mirror. I love, I love the guts that you have to just try something, um, in the face of the public, right, we? We have to remember that you know you're putting yourself out there, uh, with a new product, essentially, and saying, hey, you know, what do we think? Let's see if this works. And I love, love, I love that, because so many people are kind of too scared to to do that right, so good for you. I know exactly how you feel, and so what if it's selfish?
Speaker 2:I think everything we do, certainly as artists and creatives, like you know, you do it to get something back and that's okay, that's life, right, it's whether that's money or fame, or likes or audience, or just validation, whatever it is. Like that's cool, like it's likes or audience or just validation, whatever it is. Like that's cool, like it's better that you're doing something that you passionately want to do as well. I say to the beginners out there all the time like just do something you really want to do and fuck everything else, like doesn't matter about anything else, and just do it and see where it goes. It might it might be nothing right, but it might be everything.
Speaker 1:So um, yeah, on that, how, how has it been for you and your podcast? Cause you also have a creative podcast, which is what we're talking about now. But, as a creative person, who I would assume is a photographer first and foremost, correct me if I'm wrong, but you know, how has creating a podcast been for you?
Speaker 2:I absolutely love it and I'm yet to realize any, I guess, any kind of conventional metrics of success with it. I have money, sponsors and I'm kind of keep trying to keep I mean I'm not getting loads of people banging my door for a start, but those that have done them. I want to align with my values in terms of the podcast and just enjoy doing these conversations while I can, without any other distractions. So I mean still early phases of growing and I'm enjoying the process, but it's fucking hard work. It's it's. You know, when you are, like you said, photographer first, which I am, that is my obsession, that's my passion. Now people know me as a, as the podcast guy, so that kind of creates in me a little bit. No, we'd know I'm like I'm a better photographer than I am a podcast host. But like it's, you know, I have to make peace with that, um, and you know, maybe it's the same with you as well. You know you known more as a YouTuber than a, than a photographer. I look it's. Does it matter? Um, you know, like you said at the beginning at the top of this show, that art that is purely for that self-expression and for yourself. That's really what matters, and if people want to identify you with something else, then then okay, it's depends how that's going to shape up. But, yeah, I started this for exactly the same reasons you did.
Speaker 2:We moved to Bali a couple of years ago. I had, or I had, an idea that I wanted to start podcasts. I was doing like Instagram lives during COVID and enjoyed the interaction and enjoyed the networking, and I was still relatively new in photography. So I wanted, like you, I just wanted to meet other photographers and kind of learn from them, right, like how do you do this and what are you doing and what's your life like? And the beauty of it is everyone has a completely different journey, right, and that's some people may end up in the same place, but hearing about that journey and and I've done, there's nearly 50 episodes now and my network is is just that's the biggest benefit of it. You know it's.
Speaker 2:I just love having now a very good kind of network of people who who I can call my, can call them friends or call them associates or whatever, or just podcast guests, but just meeting other people and interacting that way. I find a lot of fulfillment from it, and even on the online ones, I much rather have people in the studio, but I can't get everyone to Bali right. So that is a challenge I don't know if you'll face that I'm sure you will at some point. But getting either funds behind it where you can fly big names over, or somehow getting people to come to Bali to sit in the studio. Or renting go flying somewhere to meet people, rent a studio for a couple of days and then trying to figure out getting 10 guests all in. So you know, it's just kind of enjoying that process and figuring out where it goes. So, um, yeah, I empathize with you completely and I have no doubt you'll. You'll absolutely love it, if you're not doing so already yeah, we're getting there, definitely.
Speaker 1:I. I have already kind of faced that issue already with, like, whether or not to have people in studio or online and and and you know, there's just so many amazing creatives all over the world. I'm fortunate that a lot of them love Japan and end up just flying here for, you know, tourism and and just for holidays and stuff like that. So that was most certainly a very big thing for for me starting it here in Japan as opposed to like over in Sydney or something like that, starting it here in Japan as opposed to like over in Sydney or something like that. But yeah, I'm in the same boat. I wonder if I should keep it in person only or, you know, do online like this and stuff like that. I don't know the answer.
Speaker 2:Well, look, if I, I feel you, um, again, it's, it's almost a dilution of your artistic integrity. If you don't do it in studio, it's uh, I feel like that anyway. It's like, well, it's just a zoom call, right, it's like it's just not the same. It's people won't want to watch that as much as they will in the studio and it's you don't have the interpersonal reaction, which is what it's all about Really. The it's all about really, the art of conversation gets kind of interrupted by. You know, we've already had technical issues just with wi-fi and just the screen in between you, right, so it's although there's great benefits to that, because I wouldn't be able to talk to you otherwise and some of the guests I've had and I've got coming up are huge and I just wouldn't, and they're in the us or they're in the uk or australia or something. I just maybe in the future I can start, you know, treating it more like a business where we, we, we, you're a bit firmer on that. But yeah, I, I get it and it's just a. You know what?
Speaker 2:I decided that I wanted to get an episode out every week in order to grow, and so you know to do that, what with my own travels as well. I just couldn't, I just couldn't not do some online. So I think one in kind of six or seven are online at the moment, which I'm that ratio I'm okay with. But uh, if it starts to become 50, 50, I just you know, I don't know about you. I, the podcasts I watch and listen to, they're not online. They're either audio only or they're studio based. So that's just me, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah no, I feel exactly the same sentiment and also like for me at the start of my journey. I still have yet to really master the craft of conversation in person in a podcast context, and that's something that I really want to work on being able to facilitate conversations with someone here. You're certainly most different to doing it online, as this is, but you know, there's a set of challenges for both, and as long as we get enjoyment out of doing both, then it's all good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I watched I didn't watch all three episodes, I watched bits of your first three and certainly the production value and the the thing, the things you talk about and having an intention. So what I love about you and your channel is having an intention behind everything you do and, you know, having a consistency with that. I think that's that's going to take you, take you very far. So, um, you know, you know, good luck with it. Uh, I'd certainly be watching that space and I'd be. I'd be keep on enjoying it.
Speaker 1:Thank you, I am Certainly.
Speaker 2:Speaking of the future, um, let's kind of we'll wrap up with talking more about um, I guess, where this space is going. You know we we touched on podcasts. I know some people who think podcasts are so competitive these days and so ubiquitous that it's almost impossible to kind of break ground in that space. I've talked to other people who are very experienced with it and say it's the future of communication. I've talked to other people like have it as part of a diversified business model.
Speaker 2:It doesn't have to be the one and only part of your business, right? Which is where kind of you and I might fit in. It's just, it's a thing we do and if we can make something of it, great, but it's just part of the bigger picture. Podcasting aside, though, I just want to talk about photography first, because it's hard to not watch your last video about changing gears and correct me if I'm wrong here, but kind of feel a sentiment from you that you've fallen out of love with photography a little bit, certainly the education side of it, whether that's impacted your general love for photography and kind of made you look at video a little bit more. But with that in mind, give us an, give us an opinion as to where the photography world moves forward over the next 5, 10, 20 years?
Speaker 1:Yeah, hard to say. I'll clarify a little bit of what you mentioned previously and then I'll get back to that. In terms of, like the love of my photography, I think doing it in such a intense way in terms of like the love of my photography, I think, uh, doing it in such a intense way in terms of education, most certainly has has diluted some of the love a little bit. Uh, but now, especially in the last you know month or two, having just gone past cherry blossom season and stuff like that and taking photos for myself and kind of almost fallen in love with it again, um, that has been very nourishing to my soul and definitely, you know, I'll be doing photography till I die and for me it's it's just a natural extension of of how I choose to express myself as a person in terms of, um, oh, where I see photography going? Man, it's hard, like it's hard to predict. Yeah, I mean, if you, if you asked anyone five years ago what photography would be like, they would not say you put your images into reels and that's how you grow as a photographer nowadays. Like it's just not. Yeah, no, you weren't ever going to get that answer. Um, and so I I don't know where it's going.
Speaker 1:Um, I do know that, as social media progresses, um, and and I'm not sure about you, but you know I've been at the forefront of social media since it was a thing, like you know, since the beginnings of Instagram, since the beginnings of MySpace and all the rest of it, like I've seen it grow and change and, you know, move around in all sorts of shapes and forms all up until this point.
Speaker 1:And so I know with certainty that I can't tell you where it's going next, but adapting to it and just just being open to to what happens next, I think is is the most important thing you can do as a photographer to keep the, the art that you have and the love that you have for the act of taking photos, as pure as you can.
Speaker 1:But then again, compartmentalizing that to then wrap it up and package it and deliver it in a way that suits the time that you're in. And today, you know it does mean if, if you are playing to win uh on, and I'm talking specifically Instagram here if you are playing to win, then that means short form video and there's like, unfortunately, no denying it. That doesn't necessarily mean it feels good or feels any better to do it, but if you're playing to win, that is the way to win. You know, I've seen a lot of photographers try and buck the trend and remain very loyal to the roots of posting images and carousels only. And um, there are some people with success, but by and large it doesn't really work at the moment, and I think adaptability, above all, is probably a better and safer bet for most creatives, in my opinion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's understanding how you want to win and at what cost, right? So I see the most successful people, photographers, on instagram purely posting images, carousels, whatever. Um, having got into it early, I, you know, to answer your original question, I, I got into it late. I put I was uh, hey, I still have a detest for social media, but I understand the, the utility of it and I'm more than happy to lean into that need and that, the utility of social media generally speaking, for society. I don't think it's helping us, it's giving us a net positive right.
Speaker 2:There are obviously many good things about it, but, as photographers, like you know, I got into it late, so it late, so I had to hustle. I had to figure out a way to, to, to do reels and I was okay, like this is an ick factor I'm not comfortable with. This is this is a cost that I I'm not comfortable with, but the great that the means for me justified sorry, the end justifies the means. Um, because I want to get my art in front of people and that's kind of where the podcast took over. So now I just I don't really do photographic reels, I do podcast reels, probably what people see more than my photos, so I don't know how that might fit into your, uh, your, your model. What is your overall opinion of, of social media and with specific emphasis on photographers, you know, do you think it's helping, helping us? Do you think it's something that's um, we, we, we should be, we should embrace?
Speaker 1:many, many, many thoughts on this. Um, it's, it's something that I I think about a lot, uh, and something that I talk about a lot with, with my own you know, my own circles here and, um, a lot of my photography friends and stuff like that. You know, I envy the people who can just go out, take photos and then maybe share it with their parents or their friends on instagram or whatever, and that's it, and there's no like pressure. There's no, that's it and there's no like pressure. There's no, uh, seconding content to to other platforms. There's no different meanings or deeper like strategies behind the things that you make, just pure, unadulterated. I'm clicking the shutter. This is, for me, the end. Like, I'm not on social media, blah, blah, blah. Like that for me. I'm so envious of that, but I would never return to it.
Speaker 1:I think for me, as a photographer and as a person who wants to get their art out and to make a business with their art and to be successful in that way, I think it's a trade-off. You have to do it because you have to remember, like, if you want your art to be in front of as many people as possible, then you need to have some level of financial freedom, incentive, perpetual motion in order to continue to facilitate the growth of that. And so, like you, can't get bigger and bigger and bigger and have your art get more and more in front of people without the process of social media. Unfortunately and there I know a lot of photographers out there who don't use it at all but who have heaps of clients, you know, do campaigns, commercial campaigns, or maybe they're in house somewhere and they love it for those reasons. And if that's you, then that's amazing.
Speaker 1:And you know, if you don't need social media, then you will know. If you don't need social media. You know, I liken this to and maybe this is not true for everyone, but you know a car mechanic. They work on cars all day. The last thing they want to do when they come home is work on a car. For some people, that's the same with photography. And you know, if you don't need social media for your life to be like that, then that's amazing For everyone else. If you don't need social media for your life to be like that, then that's amazing for everyone else. If you're taking your, your business, seriously, social media is unavoidable, and I think what you've done with identifying the level of like ick factor for the things that you make. Um, I think that's that's really smart and that's a really great way to emotionally detach yourself from the things that require the business to grow versus the things that require your own spirit and your soul and your creative function to grow. So yeah, a necessary evil, unfortunately.
Speaker 2:Well, if you're going to get to hopefully we'll get to 80, 90 years old yeah, a necessary evil, unfortunately. The fact how, how social media gained you a big audience, and then the, the experience you you had with those audience, or the, the money you made from that audience, or the workshops and encounters that you leveraged from that audience, right, so you know. Again, it comes back to intent and your perception of it's like social media is just it's a, it's a vehicle right, it's a vehicle you've got to drive that vehicle.
Speaker 2:It's a tool, yes, um, but you don't have to like it. You know when this is. This is the difference. People aren't asking everyone to like social media. It's like no, do you like doing your accounts? Do you like writing emails? No, but it's a it's. It's you have to do it to move forward and to to grow and to, you know, reach a goal that whatever you want to get to.
Speaker 1:So uh, anyway, I think it digress. No, I mean not at all, but like I think it becomes easier when you you have a coping mechanism to make it easier for yourself if you do have a lot of resistance against using it. So I like I would implore anyone watching this or listening to this to if they aren't considering social media at the moment to to find coping mechanisms against being on there and for being on there. Sorry, um, because you you need to be on there if you want to take it seriously, but that doesn't mean you have to have a shit time while you're doing it.
Speaker 2:Hmm, yeah, I mean the arguments that that I get is, you know, just, yeah, I mean the arguments that I get is, you know, just, you can feel like a sellout, right? If you're not and again it goes back to what we were talking earlier in the conversation about art versus content Just because you treat something purely as content doesn't mean you're a sellout as an artist, right. As long as we understand that that is true in every facet of the argument, then it's okay. It's like taking a paycheck for a client job you don't really want to do. You're not a sellout, You're trying to make a living. Again, as long as there's intent behind it towards some specific end result, then it's okay. Now, do we and this is a question for you is do we have ethical responsibilities? Do we have other type of responsibilities as artists and content creators, to put a level of integrity behind it, a level of truth, a level of education, something that is of significant value, rather than the banal and asinine shit you see all over TikTok and Instagram and the rest.
Speaker 1:I don't think anyone has a responsibility. That might be controversial, but I think on the flip side of that, because no one has a responsibility to do those things, people who do often end up succeeding. And so if you do have a relationship with your audience such that every time they look at a piece of your content or your name pops up in their feed, they know they're going to get high quality something right, then you immediately stand out in a sea of shit and I think that is the defining factor for many people. Like you said, I 100% agree. There is so much crap out there and I'm just as guilty as the next person, as you know, to to producing stuff like that. But the things that always transcend trends, transcend. You know what's in vogue at the minute. It's just always high quality, hard work at the end of the day. And you know if you hard work at the end of the day and you know if you, if you aren't willing to to put that in, you don't have to like but you're not going to get the results that you're looking for, and so it's. It is really this mentality of like are you playing to win or are you playing to just like dip your toes in and maybe find it lukewarm and that's kind of it right, like where, what are you doing?
Speaker 1:I always say, I always resonate with, with the idea that you know you are. What you do is effectively how you do everything. Right, you know what you do in anything is, is is very representative of of the rest of your life. If you put in a hundred percent here, you put in a hundred percent there, you're always putting your hundred percent in. That's the kind of person you are, um, and that's the kind of person that I want to be. You know, when I'm very driven for a certain thing route, whatever the case may be, like when I'm in, I'm all in all the time. I'm never like half in or anything like that, um, and and that's the way I prefer, prefer it really. But yeah again, it's not a a responsibility, it's a, it's a choice and I choose to put my effort in.
Speaker 2:Do you throw kind of influences into that circle as well? I mean we mentioned them, them. I mean we mentioned that that term earlier.
Speaker 1:Effectively. We are also influencers too, yeah.
Speaker 2:Again, though, it comes back to the intent Are you, are you putting something out there to get likes, right, To get attention, which is generally the society we find ourselves in? Very generally, we'd find ourselves in attention seeking and attention grabbing society where that's from the conglomerates that run these platforms, or if it's the general public who essentially drive the decisions of the conglomerates that run the platforms, then you know, that's for me that's a disingenuous intent, right, but if we're putting stuff out there to make an impact not necessarily to make an influence or get validation back from it, we're putting stuff out there to make an impact, and I think they can both have exactly the same output, make an impact, and I think they can both have exactly the same output, but they, they, you know, one one would garner a better kind of audience or better impact from the audience than than the other one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would. I would generally agree with that. Um, I think my stance has softened a little bit, as I mentioned before, like over the years, in terms of like people who make content for the purposes of seeking an audience, and of likes and views and and and all that kind of stuff. For me, the thing that has softened up my opinion on those people and myself included, because you know we're all some at least somewhat guilty of it is the fact that these kind of things have existed always, you know, way before social media. You know the. The fact that like you see us, like back in the 80s, when you saw your favorite celebrity on the TV smoking a cigarette and you buying that cigarette and smoking yourself made you feel like that person. And then you doing it in front of your friends who you know we're also smoking different cigarettes, or whatever the case may be Like you're always doing it to some degree for the sake of someone else, and that's just the nature of being a social animal and I think for me that is that perspective has softened that a lot because over over my years of like being on on platforms and in social media.
Speaker 1:You know, I've I've come across so many uh clout chases and you know people who are doing it for man. There are absolutely scummy behavior I've encountered over the years, I'm sure, and, yeah, and, and you know, like I, I both sympathize and empathize with that, whilst I don't align with it. I understand why these people are doing it and the feeling that it gives them. That being said, there's nothing worse than someone wanting to be your friend because you have X amount of followers on Instagram or whatever. That's the worst. I understand the human nature behind it and I I definitely don't um disagree, but it's not something that I align with okay, I, I accept your opinion and, um, I I think you're more right than I am.
Speaker 2:Put it it that way, definitely. Um, you know it's something that it's it's very difficult to judge. You know everyone's got to go out there and earn their living. Um, you know it's. It's just a matter of how, how responsible. You know, and look, if people and this is this is the second side of the argument Look if you become big enough, if people and this is the second side of the argument look if you become big enough to pick any, I mean in our space, maybe someone like Peter McKinnon right, you're a good photographer, you're an even better video creator and definitely an influencer, but in a, I dare to say, artistic sense.
Speaker 2:What are you going to do with that? You know it's like you. You know the Jeff Bezos and the Elon Musk as well. What are you? Are you going to use that success, that money, the, the influence, that you have to do some good? You know I've, I'm a firm believer in that. You should at least do something that is good or give back to those in need, whether that's. You know, I'm not getting on my high horse about charities or anything, although that'd be fantastic.
Speaker 2:But, um, you know, if you're able to give back in, in, in in some way to those that need it, or in a position that they would benefit hugely from it, rather than running off into the sunset with your fame and fortune, right? So I think, again, it comes down to that responsibility of like it or lump it. You know, it's the same question with sportsmen, like how responsible should a famous sportsman act? Some people say, well, they do whatever they want, they are who they are. Just because they're famous is not their fault, right? Just because they're rich is not necessarily their fault, it's just the market they're in, but they're in the public domain. Therefore they should behave responsibly. And so it's kind of a similar analogy, I think, and there's no right or wrong.
Speaker 1:Of course it's just an interesting conversation. Have you ever heard of the analogy of, and paraphrasing again? But the sentiment generally is that coming into money really accentuates and paraphrasing again but the sentiment generally is that, like, if coming into money really accentuates who that person actually is, right, it's not necessarily that it changes but it amplifies, right? I think fame and social media influence and followers and having social clout is the same thing. I think the bigger your audience gets, the more your personality, your true inner personality, gets amplified. If that means you were previously a scum dog and you get a lot of followers and now you're just an even bigger one, right? Or if it means that you've always been somewhat altruistic, then you know, the bigger the platform you have, the more of that you're going to be.
Speaker 1:I think it's very hard for people to well at least in my experience, you know, seeing it in the social media sphere I think it's hard for people to go one way and then suddenly have followers and then turn it around and be like no, I suddenly don't want to give any value and I'm just doing it for myself and my own self-serving purpose and all the rest of it. I think more often than not in the case that I've seen. It is most certainly an expansion of who you already are, and, whilst being altruistic and being value driven is certainly something that I align with, um, I don't think everyone is born that way and I don't think everyone really cares about being that way either.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of people are very self-serving, um, because, as humans, that's, that's effectively who we are yeah, I totally agree with you and, um, an expanse of who you are is definitely expansion of who you are is definitely something I think is very true. Uh, when you become more rich or more famous or, you know, growing in that that arena, I, I guess my, my issue is not with the individual, right, it's with the, the tribal nature with which we, we act, which is, again, it's that's evolutionary, that's that goes back thousands of years, but, uh, it's more the systems, right, we should not have systems that allow those people with a pure intent of getting rich and famous to then easily get rich and famous through just chasing algorithm, right, chasing clickbait, chasing outrage, chasing naked videos or car crashes, right, it's like this is, this is a system, that's that's fundamentally faulty and I it all it does is promote. It doesn't promote the altruistic people, it doesn't promote the people that want to do good, because those people that want to do good generally aren't the ones that will sell themselves just to climb up the ladder of of the algorithm platform. So, look, I don't you. So look, I guess this is a wider conversation about life in general, but it is a big part of our lives, especially when it comes to the younger generation, and I don't envy parents and how they navigate the maze of introducing this kind of thing to you know, we can't reconcile this right. It's an impossible thing to you know, we can't reconcile this right. It's an impossible thing to really understand truly and to to point yourself or to position yourself within that kind of maze.
Speaker 2:I just, yeah, it's, and it's moving so fast. And uh, same with ai. Right, I mean, it's moving so fast. Where do we go with regulations and stuff like that? Um, you know, maybe we end on on that kind of thing with technology moving forward. Is ai a big part of your systems? Is it a big part of your, your mindset, moving forward and, if so, what are the details of that?
Speaker 1:I think, um, initially, at least the last, like maybe year or so less so in the last few months, that's for sure. Um, I've tried to be on the forefront of ai and understand the potential and what it means to people as creatives moving forward because, much like you know, the television killed the radio and the internet killed the television. It's like AI is going to kill a lot of the utilitarian nature of art in general. You know people who need stock videos. Stock photos need to consign artists for a specific job or a specific shoot or whatever. Like a lot of that is going to be eradicated in the coming years and my big concern about that was how do you then make it as a creative person in AI world? Don't have the answer to that, but I'm at least, uh, you know, keeping it top of mind.
Speaker 1:Um, and Because it is a technology that is going to consume a lot of things, and where I ultimately arrive at that in terms of mindset is one of the few things that it's going to take a long time to replace is the idea of a personality, is the idea of a personality of you and I as people with specific character traits, who are reputable people that other people can trust Influencers, but not in the influencer age, more like your local doctor being able to trust a local doctor that they know what they're doing right.
Speaker 1:That kind of vocation and sentiment, I think, is something that is going to take a long time to go away in the world of AI. So it is something that I have my eye on, for sure, but everything else, tactically, as a creative, it's honestly pretty up for grabs at the moment. And there's, you know, I did a video, a sponsored video, on an AI editing piece of software. Every single edit, like thousands of images in like just a few hours. And a world like that is is one where a lot of photographers are going to have to find their, their point of difference, their way of surviving, because if you, as a today, are making photos in a utilitarian sense, your job is going to be in jeopardy very, very soon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you're very right and this kind of goes back to the first question I asked you in terms of is creativity being driven out or at least diminishing in our world? And hey look, I can see both sides of it where, you know, the true creators will rise above and we'll stay, you know, stay at the top in terms of integral content, integral art and real kind of real life changing pieces of work. But I can also see how, you know, maybe the, the I don't know how to say it the weaker creators or the part-time creators, or a certain section of those creatives will not be needed anymore or will struggle to be creative. Right, because you know, I'm sure you've experienced it much like the rest of us, if I want to write a script for something, or if I want to write an article for something, it's like I'm not writing that a hundred percent myself anymore. You know I'm, I'm, I'm throwing it into chat, gpt at some point to check, or I'm getting it to at least give me summary bullet points that I can go off from.
Speaker 2:And you know I was just doing this the other day. I was going this is this is this is what it's like. Now I don't, can't comprehend again what you. Your answer to the first question is I can't comprehend, kind of, what it's going to be like don't know where it's going to be in five, 10 years time. So yeah, I totally agree with this kind of up for grabs, but um, with that, though I know I did sound a little bit, you know.
Speaker 1:So with that, though I know I did sound a little bit, you know, doomsday-ish on that advice, but I think, further to what you were mentioning, I am generally optimistic about stay on the forefront and you can understand how things are going to move and adapt and therefore be more agile when the time comes, when you know you, as that person leveraging AI as it is, will have more signals to understand where the market is going and what's happening than the person who you know buries their head in the sand and like refuses to admit that AI is going to take over the world because it's, it's. You know they're not close to it at all. So, you know, being optimistic about the technology, I think, is for me the right play, um, and will enable you to to really be on top of the game. So, yeah, that's. I just wanted to throw that in there not to sound all negative and stuff.
Speaker 2:I think I used to be negative I think we all were when it first kind of hit, hit our screens a few years ago, even though we've had ai in photography world for years. But in terms of like more kind of um, popularist introduction, yeah, I mean immediately fear kind of hits home and then it's like, oh, hang on, you know, maybe photography real for human photography becomes even more valuable because it's less kind of commodified. But really, like, the true essence of creativity, right, is what you're intimating is being able to adapt, positioning yourself, go okay. Well, this challenge has come up. How am I going to create something, either from that or around it or using it? Right, that is true creativity. It's not making a video on youtube, it's being creative with what comes your way, right, and, you know, make a flight with improvisation a little bit, but just generally on the higher level. That is. That is a what, true creativity, and that's why the true creators will outlast and will be evergreen in that, in that space.
Speaker 2:Last couple of questions what, what you know in terms of creativity? Where, where does your creativity come from? Is it a? Is it a conscious sit down, creative session with yourself, or is it constant things coming into your mind that you've got to kind of compartmentalize. Do you have some big inspirations that you look to or have looked to that you garner kind of creativity from?
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I addressed this in one of my very earlier YouTube videos actually, and it's a line that I live by and have lived by for many years, in that quality input equals quality output and if you have fresh, good, solid, new, regular input coming in all the time, your output is always going to be great. And so, specifically on that point, you know I deliberately don't consume any other podcasts, really, aside a few. I don't consume other people's photographs. I don't consume, you know, a lot of traditional social media that most people would consume.
Speaker 1:Sure, I fall victim to, to doom scrolling every now and then on on the reels or whatever, but by and large, my, my inputs are elsewhere. You know, they are from walking around, um I, which I do quite a lot. They are from different disciplines, like design, or different disciplines like music, and you know just a lot of different arenas that you can then take inspirations from that other people wouldn't normally and then fold into your own thing, right. So you know, one very pertinent example of that is the whole podcast, you know, doing it in a cinematic way. I took from a podcast called Modern Wisdom and that's him just talking about self-development and getting all of these like amazing self-development style people on and I love the idea of like taking something that's so usually mundane and quite ordinary in terms of visual presentation and just taking it to 11 and just putting a nice cinematic spin on it, something nice to look at.
Speaker 1:You know, that idea is not something that you would have got if you just purely looked at one segment of podcast, like if you, if you were in only creativity or photography podcasts, you probably wouldn't have ever seen that Um. Or if you were in in some other kind of photography only like maybe maybe you might not have seen it, maybe you would have, I don't know. But taking inspirations from the outside areas of of where you usually um reside is is always a good thing in my book and always quality input for me. So I'm very conscious about where I get my inputs from and just making sure that they are diverse. The diversification is probably the biggest thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's that's hugely important and that that podcast is good for that as well. Modern wisdom, and there are a few out there that can give a balanced, diverse array of guests, I guess, and and host it pretty well. But, um, yeah, you look, your podcast looks fantastic. I love the aesthetics, love the conversations. I wish you all the best with it. Um, and before I say thank you and and um, see you next time. There's a question from our previous guest who we kind of. We have completely ripped this off. Another podcast the Diver CEO podcast who gets his guest?
Speaker 2:You're right, I guess it's the next one. I just thought it was a great. I love it and the guest I had on last time, casey Fatchett. He asked what is something small or unexpected that brings you joy?
Speaker 1:small but unexpected. That brings me joy especially yeah, I mean, uh, uh, my, this is just a pertinent to me because I just spent a bunch of money on this but I have a recent obsession and I'm talking about like in the last few years of like being obsessed with the way that I carry things in terms of like little bags or like satchels and like crossbody satchels or like backpacks or, like you know, just like EDC stuff cross-border sexuals or like backpacks or, like you know, just like edc stuff, um, but you know my, my partner will attest like I've got like a wall of like little, like side bags and hip bags and and all sorts of little stuff.
Speaker 1:but it just makes me happy because like then I can carry my things I don't know yeah, I've been really trying to like reduce down my my photography load recently and and so like. Just carrying just a few items um every day rather than a gigantic, you know camera backpack just gives me like tremendous joy, not only internally but on my back. And yeah, and it's just a random, random thing I've enjoyed cool man.
Speaker 2:Well, I look forward to seeing some of those bags on your vlogs when time permits. So, uh, pat, it's been an absolute pleasure. I really enjoyed the conversations. Um, certainly, uh, we, we resonate with each other's opinion on a lot of the things we talked about, so thanks for taking the time on on on a sunday to to sit with me. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Hopefully we can do it again sometime yeah, no worries, thank you so much for having me on it was really fun.
Speaker 2:Thanks, good luck with the podcast and the new channel. Cheers.