The MOOD Podcast
In The MOOD Podcast, Matt Jacob, renowned cultural portrait photographer, dives deep into the world of photography and the visual arts, with guests from all around the creative industry, across all parts of the globe, sharing inspiring stories and experiences that will leave you wanting more. With years of experience and a passion for storytelling, Matt has become a master of capturing lesser-told human stories through his photography, and teams up with other special artists from around the world to showcase insights, experiences and opinions within the diverse and sometimes controversial photography world.
You can watch these podcasts on his Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay.
You can also follow Matt's work on his Instagram @mattyj_ay and his website: https://mattjacobphotography.com.
The MOOD Podcast
Ami Vitale's Vision to Use Photography for Real-World Impact E099
Step into the world of Ami Vitale, National Geographic photographer, filmmaker, and founder of Vital Impacts, as she shares her journey from covering conflict zones to telling the most urgent conservation stories of our time.
In this conversation on the MOOD Podcast, Ami reveals why hope and action matter more than despair, the ethical responsibilities of storytelling, and how photographers can shape narratives that inspire real change.
She discusses her 17-year project documenting the northern white rhino’s fight for survival, the role of AI in creativity, and how grants, mentorship, and authentic voices are reshaping the future of photography.
If you’re a creator, conservationist, or simply someone who believes in the power of stories to change the world, this episode will leave you rethinking your role in shaping the future.
👉 Subscribe to the MOOD Podcast for more conversations with the world’s leading creative thinkers.
Follow Ami Vitale
Instagram: https://www.amivitale.com/
Website: https://www.instagram.com/amivitale/
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(00:00) Intro
(02:06) Finding Hope Amid Global Despair
(07:11) Why People Don’t Care About Environmental Crises
(12:22) Embracing Discomfort to Reconnect With the World
(15:17) Balancing Photography With Responsibility to Communities
(18:10) The Ethics of Storytelling
(23:13) Documenting Tourism’s Impact on Rural Landscapes
(24:28) Pitching the Northern White Rhino Story
(28:06) How Grants & Vital Impacts Support Emerging Photographers
(36:30) Why Authenticity in Storytelling Beats AI-Generated Work
(40:02) From War Zones to Conservation Photography
(45:22) Including Local Communities in Wildlife Conservation Stories
(48:17) Environmental Storytelling
(50:40) How Media Narratives Shape Fear & Engagement
(53:29) The Northern White Rhino Conservation Effort Explained
(1:02:01) Ami’s Creative Process: Balancing Planning & Spontaneity
(1:05:01) Redefining Success: From Front Covers to Supporting Others
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Welcome to the Mood Podcast, uncovering the art of conversation through the lens of photography and creativity, one frame at a time. I'm your host, matt Jacob, and thank you once again for joining me in today's conversation. My guest this week is Amy Vitale, a world-renowned photographer, filmmaker and storyteller, whose work has taken her from documenting war zones to becoming probably one of the most influential voices in conservation photography. Over the course of her career, amy has shed light on humanity's darkest conflicts and most hopeful triumphs, capturing images that remind us of our interconnectedness with each other and the natural world, as well as filling front pages of magazines. Her storytelling has illuminated the plight of endangered species, the resilience of communities and the urgent call to reimagine our relationship with nature and with the planet.
Speaker 1:In my conversation with her, we really explored how Amy's early experiences covering conflict shaped her shift into conservation storytelling and what those lessons reveal about our collective bond with nature. We talked about the power and responsibility of photography, not only as a tool to witness suffering, but as a force for empathy, solutions and change. You'll hear Amy's reflections on documenting Sudan, the last male northern white rhino, and how moments of despair can also lead to hope and collaboration. We also dive into the future of photography in an AI-driven world, the role of mentorship for emerging storytellers and the deeply human qualities that make photographs resonate well beyond aesthetics. So here is the wonderful Amy Vitale. Amy Vitale, thank you so much for joining me on the Moo Podcast. It's an absolute pleasure and privilege to have you from the other side of the world, it seems. Thank you for joining me.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love how connected we all really are these days.
Speaker 1:It's such a privilege to be able to do this, but I'm going to make your life a little bit more difficult and put you on the spot straight away, because we just don't have enough time to just go through everything and ask my million questions that I really want to dive into, so I'm going to just get straight to the point and we'll we'll see where it goes from there. My biggest, I guess, feeling and philosophy or should I say doubts and concerns as well as you know the, the optimism that's somewhere inside of me, just feels like in a world where it seems like everything is more broken than ever. I want to hear you, or I want to know, what you think in terms of where we can find hope, what?
Speaker 2:a fantastic way to start this. I really mean that, because if there's one takeaway from this conversation, it is just about this, and that is this idea like, if we only pay attention to the headlines, um, there's just the. The appropriate response is despair, but, honestly, when you go into the world and wrap your arms around it, you realize that it's one piece of the story and that actually we are in the middle of the story and so much of the hope, personally, I see, is in, you know, in the rivers and the trees and the nature and the creatures around us. And if you listen really closely, they're all telling us um a lot of things, and I think some of them are that just grief and hope lived side by side and that our future is actually not written yet we, we get to decide. Um, you know what the story is and I think our hope is that, um, that we all choose to not just feel but to act and to move beyond. Um, I think, like you know, just observation and become, I would say, like realizing the power within all of us, like the power of you know, us each as individuals, to make concrete changes in our future, in our world, create changes in our, in our future, in our world, um, and, and you know I've I think that there's just so many beautiful stories I see all the time when I choose to look, um, and that you know I've recently been looking at all the, the trees, um, you know, outside, and I think it's so funny when you start paying attention to the nature around us and you realize, like how we've made ourselves the center of the story.
Speaker 2:And you know, in some ways, like humans have turned this narrative around, where we're like, oh, they're just the backdrop to our story. When, when, actually, if you're paying attention, you realize like we are the backdrop to their story. They've been around, you know, thousands of years, longer than the same thing with species. And you know, and I just I love going to nature honestly for, um, the sense of hope, like I mean, look at any creature, look at monarch butterflies, like I love thinking about, like the journey they make, this journey around the world, and not one single life will ever be able to see the whole journey. But yet somehow they know, you know, the next generation, where to go, to pick up that journey and to keep going, where they need to go, and there's just something so magical and wondrous about life in this.
Speaker 2:You know just everything around us and it's not that I don't feel despair and that I'm, you know, just ignoring all of the things that we are doing, the impacts that we are having. I mean, I know very well Um, but I also know that when we give it a chance, like just even a tiny chance, um, how resilient, uh, and I know that that word is really overused, but um, I really overused, but um, I, I have seen how nature and humans can heal and regenerate, and you know so much of that is just about um, paying attention and figuring out, like, how, how do we heal ourselves in this world around us and I know that's very long winded, but um, world around us, and I know that's very long-winded, but um, but yeah, I, I actually have quite a lot of hope and optimism for this world.
Speaker 1:Well, that's um, it was wonderful to hear, and there's so many things that we can. We can take away from just what you said, and you know I don't want to dwell too much on your background because we have limited time, people can go and you know you're, you're very much um present in the, in the, in the we can. You know I've obviously followed you for a long time and and this is a common theme of of your narrative and what you talk about and what you try and educate and what's so inspiring is you, you live through what you, you talk about. But when we see statistics and data like 73 percent of wildlife disappear in the last 50 years in the last 50 years, blows my mind in both an extremely sad way but a very shocking way, and it's sometimes, I feel like hope can become despair, quite change into despair quite rapidly, and hope is this artificial thing that we cling on to just to try and make ourselves feel better. How can we move from hope to activism or change? Or whether it's us or the other side of the world who aren't kind of at the forefront of this, what can we do with our cameras, with our voices, to in order to try and and make a difference.
Speaker 1:And I'm going to bookend that question with with a, I guess, a deeper one that I'm not sure we know the answer to but why do you think so many people don't care about these existential threats, not just to ourselves, but to the planet, to the wildlife, to nature, to everything that that you and I and many other people care about? What is it? What is it ingrained? You know, I, I I watch a lot of this stuff, I, I read a lot of this stuff. We care a lot about the same things that you do and we. The biggest question that always sits over the top of me is why does no one else care? Why are we this self-centered species that just care about making the next buck and getting attention from the wrong areas rather than giving attention and paying attention to the more meaningful ones? That is many questions in one statement. Pick anything and run with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean, I think that humanity is incredibly, you know, we're we're so intelligent and we have, like, this ability. We're probably the only species that has the ability to, like, look in the past and also think about the future. Right, and, and that's really, really special. I think, though, in our great, you know, discoveries to make this world more comfortable for ourselves, what we've done is actually created this world where we're so disconnected in a lot of ways and scared, I think, of discomfort, you know, and actually, I think many of us who have the privilege of really embracing the discomfort and that I mean in many ways, like metaphorically and literally, like whether it is, you know, intellectual discomfort or physical discomfort, for some spiritual discomfort, like whatever it is, I think a lot of it is wrapped around, like this desire to put ourselves in a cocoon and not have to feel the discomfort, and actually, when we can't escape it, truthfully it is part of being human, and I think, when we, we walk towards all the things that make us afraid, um you it, it reconnects you it, um, when you choose to feel, really feel the despair of what is happening. You know, I started off and mentioned it earlier, but, like, love and grief are our neighbors, you know. They are intricately connected and I think by trying to prevent ourselves from grieving, it also means that we're not loving in the same way and and that we need to all open up ourselves, um, and our hearts and um allow ourselves to love um, one another, um, this world, the creatures we don't understand, that might make us, you know, feel afraid, um, and and and, and I think we're so afraid of like fear and disconnection. All those things are so intricately connected and um, and I just think, on a pragmatic level, like it's so easy to get reconnected. Um, it just involves, like really pushing yourselves, uh, pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, um, and I think like we all have to work to that um, and once you're there, you realize, like how absolutely magnificent and how little there is to be afraid of.
Speaker 2:Um, I'm talking in big sweeping terms here. There's a lot to be afraid of, actually, but at the same time I just think about, for me it's like the natural world, and I also mean that you don't have to travel far. Even in the most urban landscapes on the planet, there is so much nature all around us. You don't have to travel to the remote, most remote places on the planet, and, in fact, I don't think it's good to do that because, you know, we need to keep some of these places, uh, pristine and we don't need more human impact, like one of my things lately, like we don't all need to be going to Antarctica and to, like, all corners of the planet and, um, you know, we're impacting nature.
Speaker 2:So how do we live more? You know it's a question for all of us how do we live, um, with less, um a little more in our communities, less, a little more in our communities? And I think when you are, like, really fully involved in your community, you see how much you can do, and all the stories that I tell in my work are really very much based on communities coming together to like reimagine this world which we've woven, and it's really important to remember that we have woven this, like we've done this, um, and that, you know, human ingenuity is beautiful, but I do think, um, you know you've asked these big questions. I don't know the answer to all of them, but I I think that over and over again, I see that that it's really important not to just give up, like you know, just empathy and love and care and being engaged and wrapping your arms around anything you can. That um arms around anything you can, that makes you more engaged, is like the way forward.
Speaker 1:It also helps oneself because we find more fulfillment and meaning in that. So it goes both ways. And you talk about collaboration a lot and I really resonate with that. We grieve together, we laugh together, we love together and we suffer together. So even if it's something happening the other side of the world and I know you've talked about this before there's something that is part of us that suffers with that.
Speaker 1:It's important to, like you said, lean into that discomfort and try and find love from that. Um, where does the? I was trying to stop the big questions now, but where does for us, where does the camera come into it? Because you talked about, you know, and I totally agree with you I, I find this, this balance, difficult to maintain all the time.
Speaker 1:It's like we want to go and experience these wonderful parts of the world, these wonderful cultures that we know really deep down, we know very little about, as you know, people in a normal environment and as a photographer who's interested in these stories and these cultures, we want to be able to go and, you know, selfishly, potentially capture that, but work with them in a collaborative way and hopefully a responsibly way. Many people that go on these photo tours that don't do things responsibly. But when the deeper stories and the bigger stories come around which is, I guess, where you fit in and you know you're telling these really deep and meaningful uh, stories how do we, how do we balance the responsibility of not ruining a place or not really damaging a culture by encouraging more people to go there, but also, more importantly, tell that story and make people aware of?
Speaker 2:it, this nonprofit that supports environmentally oriented storytellers is. I wanted to empower more, you know, visual storytellers to focus on stories in their backyard, because I think it is so important that you know, unless there's, like, really a reason and you've been putting in the, you know the, the years and the time, um, like, those kinds of stories take years and years and years, and I think that, um, you know, I I began my work as a photojournalist working for, you know, international news agencies, and they would parachute me in to places all over the world immediately recognize, like, the, the trouble with that and how much ignorance comes along and how much misrepresentation. And so I started very early on thinking about these questions about, like, who gets to tell the story and what is the story, and, um, I don't think we actually focus enough on the ethics and the, you know, asking ourselves these questions and like the why, why are you telling this story? And I actually think that, um, it's really important to find a story and just commit to it for a very long time, and I think the best way to do that is to do something that is close to you. For so many reasons. It's better for the planet, um, your connections are deeper.
Speaker 2:Um, and you know, and then yet, yeah, I'm a hypocrite totally because, like some of the stories that I have spent the longest on, I've been working on a story coming up on 17 years now with the Northern white rhinos and like, the way that happened was that I started that story when nobody cared about it and I was like pitching it to everybody and the editor's eyes glazed over. Um, I got a hundred percent rejection when I pitched that story originally. When they were moving at the time, there were only eight of them known to be alive. When they were moving at the time, there were only eight of them known to be alive. And I just thought to myself, like why isn't this? Why is nobody getting it? Like, this seems really important to me. I'm going to witness, possibly, the extinction of this magnificent creature, and so I think it was like some of the stories that are far away from me physically, it was like really they were. They began a long time ago when nobody else was interested in them, and so for me that's always been like my, I have a checklist of like when I'm going to start a story and it's like is this, is this a story that has an important message for all of us Is there, like you know?
Speaker 2:Can it be a blueprint for other places? Is there a sense of urgency to telling it now? Why am I the person to tell it? And you know, just like a whole bunch of questions that I ask myself. And I think that all of us need to do that.
Speaker 2:And I also think it doesn't mean that just because you're not from a community or a place, you shouldn't tell a story, because, honestly, sometimes, like an outside set of eyes can be really useful, but you need to commit to it over time and let the story evolve and do justice to it and not be exploitative, because we know how easy it is to exploit. So I think about all of these questions. I actually think a nice way to work is like having collaborations where you know you, if you're not from a community, you're really working in collaboration with the communities and you know and perhaps, like you know, helping support some of their storytellers and you know giving. You know this it's got be generous both ways and trust and like the relationships and trust have to be there. But I mean, I love that you're asking that question and I think it's something we all need to think about more and more. I mean, I really like my main dream and focus is like focusing on things right here, because all the issues are literally the same across the planet in terms of you know, when it comes to environmental issues like I promise you know, most stories are it's the same thing being played out everywhere we are. We are causing such, you know, damage to this, this world, and, like you can find a story in your backyard.
Speaker 2:And the last thing I would say about that is one thing I noticed is a lot of photographers will see what's already been done and like try to go in and tell a story again and I'm like, why aren't you guys finding a new story? Because there are millions of stories of communities who actually need a visual storyteller. It is the currency of today and, you know, powerful photo stories can actually move the pendulum and create great change. I mean, that's why I believe in it so much. I really have seen what good, powerful storytelling can do to create positive change and support for communities and I always wonder why are the photographers going and doing the same exact story and very often repeating an old story that has evolved? That has happened to me so many times where I can tell when somebody's like gone into you know a community, um and and you're like you know the community very well you're like that's an old story, why aren't they? You know you can tell what's going on. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:it does. All of that makes sense and I have so many questions that are that are going to stem from from that. But I I resonate deeply because I'm trying to do a story of my own that no one else I don't think is is doing at the moment. But time is against me because it's to do with I'm not going to tell you where it is, but it's to do with the impact of tourism on a, on a rural landscape, essentially, and how modernization is can be a good or bad thing, depending on which side of the fence you sit on.
Speaker 1:And there's a lot of collaboration and like a really, really personal story for me, but it's it's a rush against time because you know, we're all expanding, we're all modernizing.
Speaker 1:There's very few parts of the world and uh, that that have kind of still the the rawness that one would want for for such a topic. So I I feel like I feel like we're kind of running out of time in some, some respect with stories like that, and it's often easier for people to just go and copy a story, because now a lot of people live for attention and likes and follows and maybe that's that that's the new currency or the, the currency of today in terms of the attention economy and how photographers can get a leg up in the industry. Um, I don't know, I'm I'm surmising a little bit there, but I can understand that, that mitigation of risk to go and try something new and try and tell something that hasn't been told. But I want to ask you, going back to the pitches of your story of the Northern White Rhinos back 17 years ago, why do you think, or, if you know, why did you get rejected all the time? What was it about that pitch? That didn't, it didn't interest great question.
Speaker 2:I actually wrote out all the rejections, all the editors that rejected, and I wrote them back and asked them like, if you have time, could you tell me why? Not everybody responded but a few did, and it was fascinating because they all basically responded in the same way and it taught me so much about, like, what you need to include in your pitches or grants or whatever you know it is you're working on, and I think a few things like um one. As photographers, sometimes you need to really actually always. You know we assume people might understand what we're going to show, and then I realized like they don't even understand, like, what images I'm going to make. So you need to explain visuals and if you can even go and do a little reconnaissance and make some images to be able to share what the possibilities are and then lay out what your visual plan is. Because so many stories are really great stories but that they all said the same thing it could be a great story for radio, but we don't think it's a photo story. And I was like good, good to hear um, but then I like, um, yeah, I need to tell them and really draw out a visual plan and map for them. And that's the truth. Like so many editors are, you know, in an office in a big urban place, they have no clue what you're going to show. They thought that I would never see the rhinos, that they would be in these crates, that they would be on an airplane, that we would never really see them. And I was like, oh well, let me show you.
Speaker 2:And then the second piece was why? Now, like, is there a sense of urgency? And I think I didn't express that this was urgent for this moment that like this was, you know, also being able to show that you're gonna, um, not just cover an event, but like there's a sense of urgency to the whole story, and it's not just this one event, but like this thing is unfolding and I am the one to be telling the story right now. And then you have to express how you have your access. Like I was absolute, nobody, nobody knew me, nobody cared about me, and it was like, well, do you have access? And I did, because I had lived in the Czech Republic and for four years before and created all these relationships.
Speaker 2:So kind of urgency, access. Why are you the person to tell that story? How is it visual? And yeah, and I think those are a few of the points that I now like in all of the, I like to force myself to apply for grants every single year because it keeps me it. Actually, I realized when you write a grant it helps you actually understand your story better, because sometimes we go in and we have this very vague idea and they really drill down and ask you tough questions that we all need to be answering for ourselves and to the communities we're working in too. So, yeah, I love that question and I would say for anybody applying for grants or sending pitches, never be afraid to ask why when you're rejected, sometimes they won't be able to respond, but it's a really great way to learn and make your story better.
Speaker 1:It was really good to hear how you iterated that process through asking yourself questions and then trying to figure out a way you can expose what you're thinking or visualizing with some images, so that you know even more. So today, I imagine that you know people just want to see one page of image and then they kind of have a feeling about it already. Tell us a little bit more about the grant process for someone who's a little bit ignorant like myself in terms of that world. Obviously we're all familiar with pitches, but how are the grants different and what's the application process? Who gives grants? What is that whole world like?
Speaker 2:I'm so glad you asked this. I don't know when you're airing this, but I hope soon because I created a nonprofit called Vital Impacts. We give out $50,000 in grants every year, plus 10 more spots where we really partner up each mentee with the people that are like the best in the business that can truly open up doors and change your life and create opportunities for you. Like, that is my goal. I don't want to just like have this like mentoring program on paper. I really want to uplift new voices and get work into the world.
Speaker 2:That is important and it's through exhibitions and publishing and we have so many like it's just this great opportunity and I'm shocked because we're two and a half weeks away from the deadline and I can't even tell you how few people have applied. I'm like what you know when I am applying? I mean, there's so many grants actually out there. This is funding to allow you to not have to report to an editor in the same way, like we partner you up with a very good editor but you don't have their agenda to fulfill. You can actually work on something with total freedom and intellectual freedom and the ability to like pursue a story with like the ultimate. You know, freedom, I mean, isn't that what we all want? To be an artist to explore, like all the richness inside of you, you know, and I just am completely surprised why there are not more people applying.
Speaker 1:And I. How do we apply to you?
Speaker 2:Tell us more about that, Just go to our website, vitalimpactsorg, and actually we host it. We keep it on um. The grant goes through a website called PICTER P-I-C-T-E-R. And if you don't apply on Pictor because Pictor sends you newsletters every week that give you not just Vital Impacts grants but every grant that is being hosted on Pictor. So it has never been easier.
Speaker 2:Honestly, my whole career was launched because I did apply for grants early on and the amazing thing is, even if you don't get the grant this happened to me multiple times An editor like there's all these judges judging the grants, you know, and and the judges would write me later saying you know you didn't get the grant, but I really liked your story and maybe we can publish it in this magazine. And that happened to me multiple times where I just created amazing connections because you never know, and it's not even just about winning. It's like there's so many reasons why to apply. It makes you a better writer. It makes you a better storyteller.
Speaker 2:You learn what you're going to like. It just helps you focus a little more on it. Makes you a better storyteller. You learn what you're going to like. It just helps you focus a little more on what it is you're trying to create and it gives you you know. This introduces you to this whole world of editors you don't even know yet or who don't know you, so there's just like there's not. You gain something even just by applying. But yeah, I would encourage everybody who doesn't think they have you know, the skill, like I think a lot of us are really self-critical. I mean, I know I am, and I've also learned to not to not be so proud to just try, you know, just try for things and you just never know.
Speaker 1:It's that discomfort thing, isn't it? You know it's a lot of imposter syndrome discomfort, oh, I'll never get it, so there's no point doing it. But actually, you know, you hit a really good point there. A, you practice articulating your pitch or your application and your story, which everyone's up in their own head, right, until we actually write things down and plan things out, or jump on a call or actually vocalize things. Only then do we really, you know, a few things, click, oh yeah, I can explain it that way, or that means more to me and I'll take that direction. So there's that.
Speaker 1:But also, just as importantly, you're going to make connections. You're going to even get your website in front of people or your portfolio in front of people, and you don't know who's seeing it right. And in this day and age where people are just, you know, have social media accounts coming out of their backsides and just so many distractions and's so much stuff, especially in the photography world, where it's it seems to be quite saturated in that respect it isn't, but the way we perceive other other photographers is it's, it's almost invaluable. And if these applications are free, then there's no reason not not to do it right yeah, some of them, um, uh, have a fee.
Speaker 2:We have fee waivers, so you just have to write us if you know, if you genuinely cannot afford it. But you know there's great expense to going through applications because we pay all of our judges and for their time. So we have a small. It's $25. And I think you know, but there's plenty of free things. And if you genuinely can't afford something, just write people and ask them and say I can't afford it and you know again, like, there's always ways.
Speaker 2:And the other last thing I would say about it is the other beautiful piece of it is we're all trying to find our voices, you know, like, and we're all evolving, hopefully, all the time. So I find these exercises really healthy and allowing you know, every time I write a new grant, like, it helps me find, find my voice and why am I doing this, and like, really have this kind of honest conversation with myself. And I think sometimes, you know, in this world of social media, there's so much posturing and people like trying to, you know, do things for what they think other people want, their perception of what others want, and I hope that, you know, certainly with Vital Impacts. I hope that people get past that and realize, like this is an opportunity to like dig deep into yourself, like why you know, what are you truly passionate about, why do care about this, why do you want others to care about it? And I just think, like these are the conversations I want to start creating, um, and like a, a real honesty and vulnerability, because we need that right now.
Speaker 2:Like there's just so much artificialness and, like you know, and and I feel it, and the other last thing I will say, speaking of artificialness, you know, I know it's easy to use like AI to write grants, but I feel it the second I read them, I would much rather see a grant that is not perfect. You know, I love the imperfections, I love hearing authenticity in voice and I can actually feel when somebody is like sent over this, like grammatically and perfectly written but absolutely soulless essay.
Speaker 1:I want to see your soul, I want to see who you are, I want the imperfections my concern is that ai will get so good, super intelligent, ai will get so good in the next few years that it will be able to replicate that soul even better than we can articulate it right.
Speaker 2:But that's, that's just, I guess, my pessimism for another time, because currently I'm not feeling that. I'm feeling, um, I get a lot of essays that were definitely generated in AI and I guess that is my advice to people Like try to first dig deep and figure out. Like, what is it you're trying to say?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when you're talking about that artificiality artificialness, the level of artificiality, or certainly in social media, I think that's going to be essentially replaced by ai anyway.
Speaker 1:So I think those if it now is the time to really ask yourself those questions, especially as a photographer or storyteller or or some you know everyone that's trying to find meaning in a craft and trying to find a way to find their voice, which is not an easy, easy thing to do um, they, this is the time to really go deep and to figure out what means the most to you and ask that yourself, those questions, and how you can make potentially a difference or something a little bit more deep and meaningful than what is essentially going to be replaced by AI in that kind of superficial sense anyway.
Speaker 1:So I think, you know, now's a better time than ever, because those stories are going to be we, with grant applications crying out for the authenticity and the real person behind these sentiments and these meaningful stories that people want to tell. So I think I mean I don't know whether you agree with me that I mean we can talk a little bit about AI, but I think, in terms of photography, you know, we can be concerned about it on one aspect, because, you know, synthetic image generation, artificial image generation, is going to replace a certain uh aspect of photography, but, in my opinion, like these real human connections, collaborations, stories are going to be more of more value than ever. Would you agree with that?
Speaker 2:100, and I mean I guess that's like the. The point is like just get out there and do the work and your work will show like there's no, no replacement for just good, hard energy being spent on your craft. Right, and I think you know storytelling is the oldest thing. Like way before people were even, you know, making art on cave walls, they were out telling good stories. Like it's the thing that makes us human, it differentiates us from you know, other species. I believe is like that. That again, like looking back in the past, thinking about the future. That's what makes us human. I don't think that's ever going away. We love story. It shapes us.
Speaker 1:So tell me, rewind a little bit, because I'm interested in your pivot from photojournalism to essentially environmental or nature wildlife photography whatever we want to put a label on it what was the seminal moment for you there?
Speaker 2:Your background in photojournal really, in the beginning, very interested just in humanity and wanting to understand, just understand the world. And I think early on was always very curious. I wanted to get out from, you know, the community I grew up in and wanted to know what else was out in the world, and that really led me to be very much a nomad for a lot of my life, just, you know, in a constant state of motion, living in many, many different places and very much drawn to the craft of visual storytelling. Pretty early on and um, and it led me down this path right away, where I began kind of covering the horrors of the world, the wars, conflicts, um, and I did that for about a decade and really, like in the beginning, was being sent to places like Gaza and Afghanistan and um, and then realizing pretty quickly that I wanted to go deep and learn language, learn culture, learn like if I'm going to be telling stories, I wanted to live in those places and live the stories. So I ended up living in Kashmir for four years and um, you know, and really tried to go find the stories that I thought were not being covered by media, like. One of the first stories I did on my own was um in Angola and I remember trying to pitch it to editors and their eyes glazed over and they were like amy, nobody cares about angola. I was like how do you know? You haven't even seen the story. How do you know?
Speaker 2:And I self-funded like I in the beginning, nobody would actually hire me as a photographer, so I had to work as an editor, which was a blessing in disguise, because I learned the business, I learned how the whole news industry works and I worked for Associated Press in Washington DC and New York, at the hub of these places, of these places, and my job like it was super interesting, um, to kind of see how news was being reported and what the whole. And I felt like, um, I had this chance to, you know, go and do storytelling and journalism and kind of fill the holes that I was seeing and journalism and kind of fill the holes that I was seeing. And when I say that I mean I really felt like we were really good at responding to crises, like reporting on it. But I noticed pretty early on that Like we would do like a news press event of a story that really deserved long-term storytelling and so, rather than like photographing a talking head. I was like why don't I just dig down deep into one of these news and spend years working on it and showing the nuance? And so that was kind of early on. And then kind of going and investing in these stories myself in the beginning because nobody would hire me early, early on to do the long-term storytelling. So I started taking my savings and going to places and then pitching the story after, and then that's when I learned all about grants. So I started applying for grants and that was kind of my pathway.
Speaker 2:So then, after about a decade of this, I began to realize like wow, you know, almost every single one of the stories at the backdrop was the natural world, but we weren't focusing on that, you know. And actually the erosion of the natural world leads to more human suffering, to more human suffering when there is a breakdown in our environment and there's like lack of clean water or lack of resources, like it leads to more conflict. And so I just kind of did this 180 and realized like I want to start including nature and um and our environment into the actual stories. And and that has just led me down this really beautiful path where I would like ask a question and and then start researching and realize that there were major holes in almost every single story, like even the poaching story.
Speaker 2:Rhino poaching is like all I was seeing when I started.
Speaker 2:That story was kind of you know, um, outsiders talking about the poaching crisis, and I began to ask, like, what are the communities living with the rhinos think? Do they care? Do they love them? You know, what do these creatures mean to them? Who are the poachers? How is this happening? And, bottom line, what is the solution? Like, is there a solution?
Speaker 2:And I just kept going down these rabbit holes and realizing like the people living with the wildlife are the best protectors and why are we telling their stories?
Speaker 2:And I kept going down and down and down and finding amazing stories that really were not being told.
Speaker 2:And you know, now there's a much everybody's telling stories and including, you know, the communities, which is fantastic, but they were largely being left out of stories when I began and I was like, why is this happening? Um, we still do that in a lot of cases and I think it's so important to engage with the communities you're working with and you know, asking them. And then I think now more and more about, like the ancient guardians. You know it's not just humans, it's, you know, trees and wildlife, and you know they play this indispensable role. You know, from big mega fauna to the tiniest of creatures, you know, and we all inhabit this earth and I think, like now, I'm more curious about shining a light on the. You know, the less charismatic creatures who don't get that attention. So there's like that's what I mean is like instead of going for the stories that have already been told, and told very well, try and find the stories that actually could use really great storytellers.
Speaker 1:I've always wondered why we treat an ant differently to a cow or a dog. Right, there's this hierarchy of animals that we, as a sentient being, we treat so differently. It's always fascinated me. That's definitely for another time, but it's such a wonderful principle to think about us as part of the landscape, not as ruling it right, and if only we all had that mentality, I think the world would obviously be a better place. But do you think this is just an education issue, or is it a greed issue? Is it ignorance issue? Because we are going down the path right now, mainly due to climate change, of there being a lack of food and a lack of water, certainly in the West, as much, as we're destroying the lands as well, as we're getting bigger floods and larger droughts, and this is only going one way.
Speaker 2:I love that, but, and you know, we now, I think, as journalists, tend to focus on the despair again, and not that we shouldn't, like we need to talk about that, but then I think about the reverse of that, like think about the magic and the wonder and like how can we tell those stories of, like these other beings who make the air we breathe and they shape the water we drink and they eat trees, eat sunlight and turn it into food?
Speaker 2:And like, how incredible is that without all of these things, we're nothing. But instead of I think we need to like really think about and be clever storytellers and like maybe shift that narrative and talk about get people out into the world again, like it's magic, it's so magical. And I just, you know, I think that there's like, I think about it a lot Like how do we, you know, as storytellers, make people care, make them want to engage and I think a lot of it is in just that, like not only focusing on the fact that we are going I mean, yes, we're going through the sixth great extinction, purely human driven like I think that is all beaten into all of our consciousness, you know, and and I think it actually makes people recoil and like just want to tune it out and I want to make people tune in. And how to make people tune in? It's like making it fun again in a way. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think we're innately drawn to shock horror drama, right, this is the clickbait society. Shock horror drama, right. This is. This is what this is the clickbait society, and it's just what's what gets people eyes on, whatever we want to get their eyes on. So there is this element of you know, how do we? We want to garner people's attention on the right things and then the positive things and the incredible difference so many wonderful people and establishments and nature are making around the world. But it's, it's not that it's boring, it's just people, people for some reason don't want to see those stories, or they do, but it gets drowned out by the more interesting and more shocking stories, which is war, conflict, you know, and all of that politics and how afraid I mean.
Speaker 2:Honestly, think about the power structures it actually benefits they want us to focus on. You know, this idea that AI could, uh, you know, take over the world. And what would that? What would? What would happen when actually the real danger of AI is not that, the real danger is all the energy it consumes and the water, and, like I just think about, uh, you know, taking a few steps back and realizing, like we, as the journalist and the you know, photographers and the stories we choose to share, um, are they pushing people more into that like place of not wanting to engage, really deeply afraid of one another? The world is this terrible place. Humans are horrible. Um, we're this just rapacious, evil species, or you know? And and then, like, kind of it creates a self-fulfilling prophecy, in a way, when you do that, and then, you know, allows these people to invest in going to bars when actually we've been given we are on the most beautiful little patch of real estate and why?
Speaker 2:I think about that a lot, like these narratives that we kind of regurgitate and tell over and over again, instead of like, uh, thinking about, like, how do you turn a story on its head and reignite like real passion around um, you know, getting engaged, because we are all like we're such an amazing, humans are amazing, and I, I just I think that's it. I just I think it's not enough to only tell and it's not that I don't want to tell the tragic parts, because, honestly, you need both to keep people engaged. It can't just be this like beautiful, very surfacy, like look how beautiful the world is. That's not at all what I'm saying. It's like you know, the best stories have complexity and they talk about the challenges but also talk about, you know, the hope and um, and like all of it, it needs to be in the story.
Speaker 1:Tell us about this wonderful story. I'm conscious of your time so we're wrapping up soon, but tell, tell me about this wonderful story. Well, wonderful in in, in a kind of um ambivalent sense. Uh, the, the story of the Northern white rhinos, and it's sad in its essence but it's extremely hopeful and positive in its progress, one hopes. Now. This is off the back of a recent documentary that features you and some other incredible scientists and Kenyans who are doing such fantastic work and have done for many years with these wonderful creatures. Can you give us a bit? I mean, I'm not sure how much you can talk about it, but obviously the documentary is out there, so I encourage everyone to go and watch that. It's extremely moving, extremely well told by yourself and the producers and everyone that's in it. Fascinating. Didn't quite realize we were at such, a, such a dire state. But can you tell us a little bit more about the that story in itself, but also what's been happening since you guys shot that and if there's any updates that that we can be privy to?
Speaker 2:yes, well, I mean, I think the beautiful part of this story is actually the collaboration between so many different, incredibly committed human beings, from Zacharia and all of the keepers I mean, all of them are amazing and the rangers and the people on the front lines with the animals day in and day out, to, you know, the, the veterinarians and Kenya wildlife service. Like there's just and it's like this international collaboration from uh bio rescue, like just a lot of people, and I feel like to me, that piece of the story isn't always told and it's such an important piece is like that is half the battle, is like bringing a diverse group of people into one space, together for this greater mission than themselves. And, by the way, these people like are paying for their flights every time to get to kenya. Like there's so much commitment, um and and uh, you know, they uh in the darkest hour. Like there were, you know, first eight northern white rhinos left known to be alive on the planet in 2009, and they moved four of them to kenya in the hopes that they could breed and possibly save the species. Tragically, it never happened. The two females were not able to hold a pregnancy a viable pregnancy and then the two males died and then I had been keeping in touch was there and then, in the darkest hour, when you feel like there is no hope, that this I mean. I mean, really, they are magnificent creatures and I literally fell in love with them, being so close to them and realize, like their sentience, realize how important they are to our whole ecosystem, and and so it was down to two females. And then, uh, bio rescue, who had been working with them very closely for a while, really during the pandemic, right before the pandemic started, um going and collecting uh the immature eggs of the last females, and now it's just one female fought to that. They collect the eggs, then they have to fly them to uh italy where aventia labs like take the frozen sperm, make these embryos anyway. Long story short, they've like created these embryos and then the final step um has been how do you create a viable pregnancy in a surrogate from a closely related species? And they did. They actually created, they made a.
Speaker 2:The film shows all of this, but basically they were able to take a Southern white rhino embryo. They wanted to do a test before they use those precious Northern white rhino embryos in a surrogate. And they did. They had a viable 70 day old fetus, and then climate change came and brought these like unimaginable rains to Kenya and it unearthed this bacteria that lives in the soil for centuries, and the rains were so, you just so, um, uh, strong and and violent. And it unearthed this bacteria, clostridius, and instantly killed the surrogate and her fetus and this bowl that was being used. And then they, you know, quickly. We were also shocked and didn't even understand what happened. And then the test came back and they, um, they vaccinated.
Speaker 2:Everybody always asks, like, what about the other rhinos? Well, they were able to vaccinate the rhinos against this bacteria. Um, and now the next phase is like actually implanting northern white rhino embryos into surrogates, and that is happening, and I am, I think people need to watch the film and I, I, um, can't share much more other than to say that, um, I believe that we will see Northern white rhinos roaming the plains of Africa again. And you know, the key, though, to remember is like, let's not wait for science to save us, like, is it possible? Yes, probably, yes, it is, but do we want to wait for the you know the end of, you know the last moments to be saving species? And I think like the best part about this work is that they can actually be working on other rhino species, other species that are, you know, on the edge of extinction, not down to two females, but other species. So there's a lot of lessons here.
Speaker 2:It's been this like, truly like heartbreaking story of ups and downs where you're just, you know, emotionally it's exhausting.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't know how to explain to people, but it's not like all hopeful at all and it's heartbreaking.
Speaker 2:But I also, at the end of the day day, look at all the people I admire in the world and all the advocates and people who have created great change, and I realize we may never be alive to see the impacts of our work, but that's not what drives us like we're in the middle of the story right now when it comes to this planet and everything we're doing to it, and the story's not what drives us Like we're in the middle of the story right now when it comes to this planet and everything we're doing to it, and the story is not written Like we all get to decide what we all do with our lives, and I would just say that all of us have a role to play, you know, whether it is the storytellers or the scientists, or just being a good human and thinking about our consumption and how to be a better human, uh, on this planet, you know, and that we're in this beautiful web together and um, and then you know there's this.
Speaker 2:I love this author, richard powers, and really talks about this. He's like your suffering is my suffering. I'm like, absolutely, that's right, your joy is my joy. And and kind of really getting into that in a heartfelt way, you start to feel it and understand, um, and and then your work becomes something outside of yourself in a way.
Speaker 1:And yeah, what are you thinking about and yeah, it does. And last question for you but what are you thinking about? I realize we've had this conversation and we haven't really talked about photography much, but what are you thinking about as a photographer, right In you know, when you go to Kenya for these trips, do you go with a, you know, pre pre-planned kind of I want to get these shots and I want to try and tell this specific element of the story, or are you just rolling with it in a kind of really journalistic way and, seeing what you can capture at the time, what's your, what's your process like in these, these types of trips?
Speaker 2:great, question um, a little of both. And also I should say I'm a filmmaker and a lot of the footage in the Last Rhinos was mine. Was it Okay?
Speaker 1:wonderful.
Speaker 2:So I was doing a lot, and I'm always doing a lot, like you're in front of the camera, you're behind the camera, you're writing, you're making films, you're making pictures, and do I plan? Absolutely, I do a lot of planning, but I also leave enough space for, you know, the things I didn't imagine, leave space for whatever happens in front of me to just simply document. I never like try to, um, you know, push and create, like those scenes, and less like I'm doing an interview, you know, um, but I guess I really am a documentarian and I'm just trying to tell story and thinking of all the ways to to tell it, um, creatively, and all the tools we have. Like, we have so many tools these days, so there's just a lot of gear you're thinking about, from audio to multiple cameras to, um, you know, is this going to be a stills moment or is this going to be a video moment, and so it's just like a lot of preparation and gear and just tech that goes behind a lot of it.
Speaker 2:Um, so, with those stories there, you know there's a lot that I'm juggling in my brain and trying to make sure, you know, capturing important moments. Sometimes I can't be in those spaces, so I have remote cameras there. So, yeah, there's just like lots of that. And then, you know, on other stories, I like to be able to just be totally free and be more creative and like feel the moments and, just, you know, listen a little bit more, and that's also a beautiful space to be in and, to be honest, I'm really kind of craving that. I'm really ready to wrap up some of these, like you know, decades old stories I've been working on and be like my work is done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just give birth already, Come on.
Speaker 2:It's like I want to start something that is, just you know, going to challenge my brain in different ways. So what does success mean to you in that respect, then?
Speaker 1:Because just you know, gonna challenge my brain in different ways. So what? What does success mean to you in that respect? Then? Because you know you talked about the, the um, the fetus that was was born, which was your incredible photo of that fetus in in, in two palms of the hands. That that made the nat geo front cover and, um, many photographers in in that genre would feel that when I get a photograph from the front cover of naturopathic, that's I'm, I've done it right. So what is? What is that? I know that's not really um, any kind of definition of success, but what does it mean to you now in terms of, like, a successful project or success as a kind of a generic term?
Speaker 2:well, I always feel slightly embarrassed because there is so much emphasis on us as the storytellers and to me it's like, oh my goodness, you know the, the, all the people that actually deserve the recognition couldn't even, they weren't even named in the film, and that broke my heart, to be honest, because there's so many people that deserve to be a part and named and recognized. And you know, and at the same time I'm so grateful to national geographic for believing in this story and putting their time and energy and resources and the whole team I mean that was a multiple people that came over and were documenting that and really a part of it. So that that was amazing because you know why is like I genuinely can say like my goal is to shine a light and like help the people that need the support. Frankly, getting more financial support for the science, for the conservation you know we need, and I believe you know I also have seen how the storytelling can do that you know, just some of I've experienced this where, like you know, an image I've taken has been able to actually I can go and advocate it and it raises millions of dollars for the organizations whose stories I'm telling. So that is what I believe is drives me and makes me happy to see that happen and it doesn't always happen, but when it does, you're like that's amazing, um, and there's power in that.
Speaker 2:But I think, what does success mean to me? Honestly, I really want to fade away a little bit now and, um, do things to support other people. There's millions of stories that need to be told, and how can I, you know, open those doors for others now? How can I? You know, I've had that privilege of entering some of these spaces and now I feel like my role is to, like, keep that door open, come on in, because we need to nurture and support so many people who never had access to spaces. So I think about that a lot and and then also just like really doing some deep soul searching myself right now, like what is it that I, how I want to be spending my very limited time on this planet? And you know, really, that's that's what I'm thinking about right, right now.
Speaker 1:Well, amy, I wish you the best of luck with all of your future endeavors that you continue to be such a huge inspiration for literally millions of people. So if we had more people like you on this planet, we probably wouldn't be in some of the despairing situations that we are. So thank you so much for the incredible work and inspiration you do provide so many people, including myself, and I'm extremely grateful that you can spend time with me and with other people spreading such good messages and inspiring so many people. So hope we can meet one day, and I wish you the best of luck with Vital Impacts. What a wonderful with other people spreading such good messages and inspiring so many people. So, you know, hope we can meet one day and I wish you the best of luck with Vital Impacts.
Speaker 1:What a wonderful organization. We didn't really talk about that that much, but I would encourage people to go and apply for the recent grant. Remind me of the deadline so that we can September 15th, september 15th, so we'll get this out before then, and if people are watching listening to this, then get onto the application process. I know it will. So, amy, without further ado, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. I just want to throw it back to you Like thank you for taking the time and, really you know, giving space to so many other people. I really appreciate your work and it's a real privilege to be here. Thank you, matt.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
