The MOOD Podcast
In The MOOD Podcast, Matt Jacob, renowned cultural portrait photographer, dives deep into the world of photography and the visual arts, with guests from all around the creative industry, across all parts of the globe, sharing inspiring stories and experiences that will leave you wanting more. With years of experience and a passion for storytelling, Matt has become a master of capturing lesser-told human stories through his photography, and teams up with other special artists from around the world to showcase insights, experiences and opinions within the diverse and sometimes controversial photography world.
You can watch these podcasts on his Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay.
You can also follow Matt's work on his Instagram @mattyj_ay and his website: https://mattjacobphotography.com.
The MOOD Podcast
Why Photography Works Better When You Stop Faking It - Phil Sharp, E101
Phil Sharp, an award winning British portrait photographer, talks about the human core of portrait photography and why music, language, and time can turn performance into truth. We challenge received wisdom about headshots, explore photography books and business, look ahead to portraits in an AI world, and attempt to dismantle the myth that great images come from gear, tricks, or perfectly controlled sets. Phil's work relies on a deeper element: the moment a person stops performing.
What's discussed in this episode:
- Portraiture as human connection, not just technique
- Creating safe space with empathy and careful language
- Using music to trigger sincere emotion
- Balancing performance and authenticity in front of camera
- Session pacing, energy, and knowing when to stop
- Pricing, packages, and word-of-mouth workflow
- Books, prints, and the pros and cons of publishing
- AI’s impact and why presence still matters
- Finding voice over style through repetition and reflection
I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation with Phil - a long time fan of his, it was good to have a conversation about photography as human connection, not necessary technical domination.
Subscribe to the MOOD Podcast for more conversations with the world’s leading creative thinkers.
Follow Phil and his work:
Website: www.philsharp-photo.com
Instagram: @philsharp
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This episode is sponsored by Strata Editions - use discount code MOOD for 10% discount on their store - visit strata-editions.com to shop and see their collections.
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Thank you for listening and for being a part of this incredible community. You can also watch this episode on my YouTube channel (link below) where I also share insights, photography tips and behind-the-scenes content on my channel as well as my social media, so make sure to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Threads and TikTok or check out my website for my complete portfolio of work.
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Welcome to the Mood Podcast, uncovering the art of conversation through the lens of photography and creativity one frame at a time. I'm your host, Matt Jacob, and my guest today is no other than Phil Sharp, a British portrait photographer best known for his striking, intimate portraits of actors, musicians, and artists. And his work is being published widely across the UK and beyond, recognized for its honesty, simplicity, and unmistakable emotional depth. But what sets him apart isn't just the quality of his light or composition, it's the way he sees people and connects with them. There's something profoundly human in every image he makes, a sense that he's searching not just for perfection, but for truth and authenticity to go with it. In my chat with him, we explore the alchemy that happens between photographer and sitter, that quiet electric space where emotion really lives. We talk about authenticity versus performance, how to build trust, and what it means to truly see someone through the lens. Phil shares how boredom can also be a creative catalyst, how resistance leads to revelation, or why the future of portraiture lies not in technical perfection, but more in emotional presence. We also unpack how he developed his distinct style and voice, the role of vulnerability in art, and how he keeps meaning alive in an age of repetition, formula, and now AI. So here he is, Phil Sharp. All right, I'm here with Phil Sharp. Absolute pleasure, Honor. Thanks so much for jumping online with me and for the Moo podcast. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00:You're welcome.
SPEAKER_02:Phil, I wanted to uh kind of dive straight in. I think I don't think we have enough time for kind of the small talk. We'll get into kind of your background and pedigree while we do that. But your work is hugely inspirational. I've been a fan for for a few years now as a portrait photographer myself. I've always kind of certainly in recent times looked up to your work without wanting without wanting to copy it too much. But I'm I'm really interested in in the this genre of portrait photography. I want to know, like uh I I've listened to you before and read a lot of what you've written about before as well as studied your work. And I want to understand what portraiture teaches you about humanity, like really kind of gets into the psyche of yourself as much as other people and how that really formulated in your early years as a photographer.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's a good good big question to start on. Yeah, I mean, I suppose portraiture to me is fundamental fundamentally about sort of you know human relations. If you really sort of boil it down, it is about being in a room with somebody else. And as I've gone on, yeah, you you really sort of realize the the sort of technical side of photography really does sort of take second place to just one's behaviour with other people, basically, and that is just you know essentially what you're capturing as a as a portrait photographer. Which I I think I think even as a young photographer you sort of know that's the case, but obviously you have to get good at the technical stuff, so you sort of focus on that necessarily first. But yeah, it's it's all about I suppose I suppose I'm just try trying to understand people and and then you know there there's that thing about all portrait photographers, or in fact what I think all portrait artists are always essentially just taking pictures of themselves or painting themselves, like and I think there's a sort of certain truth to that. It's sort of you know, my approach is has sort of you know become like the only way that I can really do it, I suppose. And you know, why I ask myself, like, why is that? And it's just because well, it's that's the way it makes sense for me to to do it, you know, and so and I suppose that's how you'd sort of develop a a fingerprint as a photographer, it's just sort of trusting your instincts and the way you want to do it, and yeah, and then that becomes just that's the way your images look because that's the way they look. I don't know, it's it's sort of something fundamental about one's personality that makes them look a certain way.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, sorry to cut away and interrupt, but I did want to mention the current sponsor of the show, and it's not often we have sponsors on the Mood Podcast, but I really did want to connect with this project and feature them as much as possible where I could. They are Strata Editions, which is an experimental photography project and store in Livingston, Montana, in the US, whom I had the luxury to visit when I was passing through a while back on a photography project, and I was blown away. They are primarily a photo book store and exhibition gallery space, presenting collections of photo books, photographic art, and furniture, all designed in-house. By focusing on visual and material work through a thematic lens, they offer a space to consider the relationships between photography, self, environment, and production. The works they share tell stories about themselves as well as how they tell the stories that matter to them. Physically, Strata Edition serves as a reading room, workshop, and exhibition space for anyone who passes through its doors. Online, their e-commerce game in the photo book world is legit, and some of the books in their collections are not even readily available for purchase anywhere else. They're either sold out or out of print or imported. The titles they offer have been made available directly by the publishers or the artists themselves, and their hope is that you'll want to share these books with friends and family and add them to your own library. And I highly recommend you do. I have a few of my own favorite books from these guys. I love them. They offer artist exhibitions and shows consistently also throughout the year, and continue in their own reflections on the relationship between people and environment in this region. So go check them out. They're great guys, excellent platform. Shoot them a follow. Use the discount code in the description to grab a 10% discount on your order. Do be mindful though, they do only ship inside the US at this stage. All right, back to the episode. How was where did the I guess the interest in in other humans is almost innate in people, right? So I'm not gonna kind of ask you, well, why are you why are you interested in people? But where when did you re realize that that was what took your interest? Or when did you realize that that was a way you could earn money from your photography if that was the case?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, I think I think that's it. I mean, I think as a photographer, you have to keep an eye on the business side of things. I kind of always knew I wanted to make a make a living as a photographer. So I think taking pictures of people is quite hard. So there's less people that do that. So I sort of, I suppose at one point I was like, well, I do want to take pictures of people. I'm not I'm not interested enough in food or cars or weddings, I suppose. Well, there's nothing wrong with people that do that. I've done weddings, you know, and nothing wrong with that. But yeah, I suppose I always thought that photographing people is a challenge. So and I I suppose I thought that it's something that sort of going back to your first question, it's like you I think one learns as much about themselves as you do about the other person when you're working with somebody. So I suppose I'd always I thought I'd always find it interesting and you know, and I think that has played out. And yeah, I think one of the reasons I love photographing people is because it you know every day does sort of feel like a new job in a way. Like when I open the door to a a new sitter and i you know it it it doesn't feel like the shoot I did yesterday because the person is different. Like I might I have a way that I like to work and but that person will have a completely different energy to the person before. Even if they are, you know, even they could be, you know, the same sort of demographic of person, they could be at the same agency, the same age, but you know, they'll be a they could look similar, but they'll they'll be different. So in that way it feels like every every shoot is a sort of is a blank canvas. So yeah, I guess I just knew from uh from early on that I would hopefully find it a rewarding way to spend my work in life, I suppose.
SPEAKER_02:Give me some idea of of how you've evolved as a person through doing this craft. I imagine, you know, the things that come to mind just through my own experience, but as well as kind of seeing a little bit of behind the scenes of how you work, patience, empathy. I mean, it was really interesting. I think I I heard maybe it was the chat you had with Sean, Sean Tucker, who was also on the show earlier this year. Well, you said many of us feel nervous, right? Walking in, even if there may be actors who I know you you photograph a lot, but nervous walking to a room either full of strangers or just with one stranger that you haven't kind of and then suddenly now this camera and this kind of weird contrived environment. Is that a real skill to kind of a understand that energy and to empathize with it and then to provide this almost this safe space where people can really eventually be themselves? Is this you know that maybe is that probably putting words in your mouth? Is that something that you've really learned to hone over the years? And and if so, is there anything else that's really for sure?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's all it's it's all stuff I I've I've it's you know, continual learning process, and you know, I never stop learning. You know, so my Yeah, the way I communicate with my sort of sitter is constantly evolving, and you know, and it check changes from person to person. It isn't sort of you know one sort of set way of doing things. It's because yeah, I think empathy is really the you know one of the key ingredients to be in to what I do at least. Yeah, you have to you have to understand how your sitter is is is feeling to some degree in order to get the best out of them or to get them to where you want them to sort of be with you in that environment, I suppose. And so yeah, I mean I yeah, and and everyone differently it can be professional actors, you know. They're it can they could you know professional actors can still be very shy and nervous, and you know, uh actors are just like any any other job, actually. You know, there's a full spectrum of type of person that does that particular job. So, but I guess what I what I do expect from actors, I suppose what I try to do is communicate to whoever I'm working with in a language that I understand and or language that I think they'll understand rather, and what an actor should understand is that their thoughts and feelings and body language are all communicating something, and so you know that's what I'm gonna be photographing, and so and so when they sort of you know first sit down, I'll be taking pictures of somebody who will be thinking, I wonder what I should be doing. That's what the pictures will say, because that's what the person is thinking. But then as time moves on, hopefully my sit will start thinking or feeling other things, and then that's what I start to photograph. So yeah, it's not it's not really uh I was chatting to somebody at a party once and I was explaining kind of what I do, and she works as she had something to do with like neurolinguistic programming, basically, and she was like, Oh, you're you're what you're doing is neurolinguistic pro programming, and I was like, Oh, okay. I hadn't really thought about it like that, but you know, the the words you use when you meet somebody, and I don't I don't really think about this in my personal life at all, but like in my professional life, I suppose I do. But it's like, uh, you know, I I won't I won't say to somebody like uh I won't even say like, oh, don't be nervous, because I don't want to say the word nervous. I'd say like, you know, this is this process is is easy, you know. This is a space where you can like just do your do your job. Just like using like positive words rather than like, you know, don't be stressed. Because I often, you know, I think you're sort of putting that word into someone's head.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, I just think you can use language, and it's not about like tricking people, it's not, you know, you're not, but it's just about yeah, trying to create an environment. Because your sitter in my in my w work, obviously, like you're both trying to do the same thing, right? You're both trying to make a good picture together. Like your sitter wants to help you to help them, you know. So you're just trying to like find your way together to make that happen for each other. I think, you know, the the only times I sort of struggle, I think, is if somebody has a lack of experience and or they've got too many like preconceived ideas of like what they should be doing. Uh but it, you know, again, if it if it's if it's an actor and it, you know, it could be the sort of actor who is sort of like, you know, sort of a generally sort of nervous and sort of stressy kind of person, but they they will understand that what you're doing is making something together. So, you know, what you're fundamentally doing is create is make turning this 3D real life space that you're in, and you're converting it into two dimensions, and what what is that gonna communicate? That image that you make together, like what is that so you know, anyone with any type of experience as an actor will kind of understand that that's what you're trying to do together, and so and so yeah, it's this sort of space between performance, but then like all good, you know, really good performance, uh it's actually truthful. So that's the that's the um sort of little frequency that me and my sitters try to sort of meet on, I suppose.
SPEAKER_02:Tori, what do you mean when you say, you know, I understand this dichotomy or this I hope this kind of evolution from performance because everyone performs in their own way when they come in, right? Especially if it's new to them, whether they're an actor, great performance, you know, that that's kind of often their natural state. Or if it's a non-actor, they're still they still have the shield on and a mask until you're able to really get underneath and allow them to show their true selves. What do you mean like per good performance is really truth? Is is that what do you what do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I suppose it's it's it's it's a performance in the sense that they are sat in front of you and you're pointing a camera at them. So but I think because what you know, my what I do, what I've sort of ended up doing is it's just basically telling my citizens just to like listen to music, you know, just play music loud and just listen. And so it's a performance in the sense that yeah, like you know, that you've constructed this environment. But then I think, yeah, it it really I suppose it's the the the the sense of sort of sincerity or sort of truthfulness, I suppose, just comes from when I think I sense that my sitter has sort of stopped trying to do anything other than listen to music and then just have the capacity to be able to sort of share that with the camera to some degree.
SPEAKER_02:As in whatever's coming up for them in that moment.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I think you know, music can trigger thoughts of you know family and lovers and you know, memories of all sorts, and so I suppose it's those kind of emotions or or sort of like I don't care what they're thinking about or whatever, you know what I mean? That's irrelevant to me, but but I can sense I can sense I mean just chap I was photographing yesterday, he's lovely, lovely guy, like quite quite kind of inexperienced, and uh, you know, it probably took about two hours until I really sensed that it sort of clicked for him that like oh like it's those it's the personal feelings that I should be that's okay for me to be thinking about and then there's this sort of like realization in your sitters that that's the interesting stuff, it's not you know, don't don't don't try and look interesting Don't try and do anything you know it's yeah it's a it's it's a weird paradox. There's a lot of paradoxes in photography, I think. There's a lot of paradoxes in sort of talking about this, you know, like yes I tell my sitters like don't you don't need to think about how the pictures look at all because if that's what you're thinking about, that's what the pictures will look. There'll be pictures of somebody thinking about how do I look. Maybe that's what you want. I mean, that's what sort of fashion photography is in a way, right? It's like, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's you know, somebody like just looking pretty cool, and that's great. But it's not necessarily what I'm doing, I suppose.
SPEAKER_02:So, what is your goal when when you have someone booking you and they come into the room? Where what is your do you I have so many questions? Like, how much do you prep? Is there an intent behind it before they even walk in? Or are you just kind of like this blank canvas and you're just gonna you want to obviously break down those metaphorical barriers that they have that any human has when they they walk into to that studio, whether they're experienced or not? Or do you do you have how much is balanced between kind of prep with a goal in mind? I.e., you know, you want to get, for example, you you want to just get the truth, or you want to capture whatever they are feeling in a moment, or or do you have kind of no goals, no intent, just see what happens, kind of not wing it, of course, because but you you're comfortable enough to wing it and just kind of adapt with how it how it comes on the day. So so is there a balance, you know, I know it's complex, but how do you pro pro process it?
SPEAKER_00:No, I do I do I do sort of wing it to a certain degree. I mean, I you know, I'm I have my own studio and like all my kind of stuff in here. So I have no I have no plan at all actually other than I I wanna I wanna take I want to take the best picture of that person and I get I get annoyed when it might be generally like I don't know somebody might do a shoot with another photographer after if I think that photographer that picture of that person is better than my picture. So I suppose I just want to be like I just want to try and make you know like the sort of defining picture of that person which I you know I don't don't always manage to do, but yeah, I don't I don't have a plan. I mean as soon as I as soon as because I you know I'll obviously look people up when they've booked with me and see what they look like or whatever and you know broadly see what sort of stuff they've done. So I'll have a like an idea of that person in my head, but like the moment I open that door, like that all of that that vision of that person gets sucked out immediately. So it's it's interesting how like all of that is then yeah, just not becomes completely separate to the person in front of me. So so no, I mean I've said this before elsewhere, where I kind of feel like I have a sort of jazz jazzy approach where yeah, I have all you know different sort of lights and backgrounds and different bits and bobs. And yeah, then I now I I suppose I'm at a point now where I just trust my instincts to to how I want to photograph this person. And you know, the first half an hour, hour working with somebody, like I'm kind of really just m moving around them and getting them to sort of move, and I'm not necessarily expecting like any of those early images to be that good, but I'm and it's one of the reasons I feel like I am quite a digital photographer in that way, is that I'm just kind of learning to look at that person and learning how to photograph them, I suppose, and what what I think they're capable of and you know what they're gonna be sort of comfortable doing. And you know you can glean that by how they uh responding to certain pieces of music or like the maybe the clothes that they've sort of brought with them, or the sort of stuff that they wanna talk about. You know, if somebody what's a good example, like you know, just w where were sort of chatting and they might like the chat this week was like, Oh you know, I probably just said oh have you had a good week, and they're like, Yeah, I went to see the new Paul Thomas Anderson film, and you know, and then then you could you then you're talking about sort of cinema, and then you kind of know, you know, and you're talking about phantom thread, or sort of, you know, then you can you're sort of opening up about certain visual language, so it's like, okay, like then I I sort of know I know this person will speak an interesting visual language with me somehow, you know what I mean? Or certain piece of music might come on and they're like, oh yeah, like you know, this sounds like blah blah blah, and then so yeah, it's uh it's a dance, I suppose. I think a photo shoot is quite a lot like dancing, like and I and I and I you so in in two ways. So in in in in a way where I feel like at the start of a shoot, you know, I'm I'm leading the dance and I will sort of lead the steps. But then, you know, as my as we sort of warm up with each other and my sitter sort of grows in confidence, then they'll start to lead, you know, they'll do something, and then it's like, uh great, like let's do that again, try it like this, you know, and then so they'll they'll they'll kind of understand that I want them to start to sort of take the lead. And uh and and the second way I suppose is you know, I I will say to my sitter, like you I mean you can't actually dance if you want to, you can but like if you if you imagine just your depending on the composition or whatever, if someone's ha you know, expression and head and arms and these things, like imagine if you're just dancing with that part of your body. Like when you're dancing, you're not thinking about what you're doing, right? You don't, you're not like okay, and now I'm gonna move my arm there, and I'm gonna move my foot there, and then then I'm gonna move that arm, and you know what I mean? You're not operating on that level of consciousness, it's a more unconscious thing, and that's what makes it interesting. And so, yeah, I feel like with my sitters, I kind of want them to start to move on that sort of frequency, I suppose. That makes sense.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, because I I I guess the the unconscious or subconscious is really where the true persona is at. And if that's kind of your interest and that where your curiosity drives you, then that's kind of what you want to get to. Whether it's just that true self in the in that specific time, that specific moment, that specific place, then great. Or if it's something a little bit more deeper than that. So yeah, I totally understand that. And that your process is fascinating to me because you're almost creating or trying to force them into this forced boredom or vacuum where they've kind of run out of run out of energy or they've run out of things to think about, or they've run out of effort to kind of keep this, you know, persona alive, and then they just eventually surrender to to the process and to you and to this collaboration that that they're making. And you know, at that your shoots that can last, correct me if I'm wrong, you know, half a day, right? And it's it's at some point you kind of wear them down into really showing their authentic self. So that that process is fast, but where did you you know, we're talking NLP and we're talking real people skills, really like skillful ways to understand people, not to manipulate them, but to kind of like you said, dance with them, which is you know, really, really difficult to do, especially if you're a photographer, you know, it should be operating a camera, not you know, not providing therapeutic space, right? But that again, that there's this beautiful symbiosis. Where did you learn where did you learn these skills and where where did you kind of learn all of this stuff that you you really makes you you know separate you from kind of the average portrait photographer?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, it's when I how old would I have been early 20s? I worked in a family portrait studio. There was a there was a franchise in the UK, I don't know if it was elsewhere called Venture, which a sort of white cube. It was the first sort of brand to do kind of very sort of active sort of family portraits, basically. Like people would be sort of you get people sort of all jumping on each other and like you know, just hugging and pushing into each other, and just so you're capturing people sort of laughing and stuff. Uh and and I worked I worked in in that studio for a year, and I I learned and the the way that business worked was they would sort of sell vouchers for sort of£25, I think, and that would sort of entitle you you'd get the shoot, and then you'd get like a kind of small print, and then obviously they would sort of upsell you to try and get you to to spend on what the chute was worth, which would have been you know, several you know, a grand at least, I suppose. But you know, every so often somebody would spend like three, four, five grand, and that was the sort of business model. But but it meant that you you got a lot of families who you know just spend 20.
SPEAKER_02:25 quid didn't weren't interested in the in the shoot didn't like each other uh didn't want to be there and it was still my job to try and get like an interesting photograph out of out of these people and so you know I suppose that's that set me on the path of of of sort of trying to understand like how to how to get something out of people but I mean that was you know completely completely different to what I do now but I but I suppose you know looking back that was sort of formative in a way of uh you know of spending a year being kind of like fronted with that scenario like day in day out and and and then and then sort of really since then it's just evolved from from you know trying to shoot as regularly as I can you know the importance of the music has evolved from you know I would always play music but it was it didn't start off like being the thing but uh but it you know I I suppose I would just notice more and more like oh like I think this piece of music is like you know triggering something in my sitter yeah so it's really evolved from like from that to just be like yeah just listen you know just that it feels like the sort of natural evolution I suppose of like like why why like let's let's just cut to the chase like it's the music that you can use and again you know with and you know I would you know I sort of try to learn about I've never been an actor or anything but I tried to learn about actors and acting and how they work and how they do what they do and then and so like you know all actors are different they all do it in a different way so there's not one way of doing it but uh you know what what how can I how can I help an actor along and so giving an actor something to do and in my case listen to the music that's the thing you should be doing in this scene if you like with the music specifically just to kind of double click on that do you is this is this your music uh that you kind of put on or is it their music that they request or you ask them how does how does that no no it's it's not music that I make no no and then my wife is a musician uh and I do play her no I mean your your is it your taste and your playlists or is it their is it theirs?
SPEAKER_00:It's my music yeah and people would people would say oh do you mind if I play put on some of put on a playlist or play something and I used to be like yeah of course no problem but actually now I I say no for two two reasons again first one is because it could be terrible and uh I don't want to listen to that but actually the main reason really is because I want my sitter to be surprised I suppose I don't want them to have a if it's something that they like yeah I like how I feel when I play this piece of music like it's gonna be a it's it's less interesting it's not it's not gonna capture them by surprise or you know it's not like I think I want them to hear a piece of music that's gonna trigger something in them that's not like I don't know a bit too it's a bit too comfortable. It's a bit boring if it's like oh yeah this is yeah I don't know it's I think if it's a piece of music even though they actually and this is one of the joys in what I do like um just a couple of weeks ago there was a guy and and this is all in my head but I sensed that he'd never really appreciated like jazz music before say and there's a like a miles davis song came on and I could sense it was like blowing his mind and that's that's what I want to take pictures of I suppose is like you know and it it wasn't it wasn't doing a huge amount I think it's those kind of sort of feelings that I'm interested in in my sitters and so yeah I d I I think um when you're if I've sort of got my sitter in a state where they are they're kind of just listening to music and then it's sort of you I I think you can become just like more open to to stuff right your sort of your conscious mind of what you sort of look like and don't like as sort of definers of your personality sort of get broken down a bit and so and I think in that way you know mu music sort of communicates and sort of cuts through something and so you know you can take a picture of somebody smiling by saying smile or you can take a picture of someone smiling when they have the they the synapses in their brain have connected to appreciate like Miles Davis playing the trumpet and it's a different type of smile you know so it's a sort of you know it's it's it's profound I think so if I can photograph people in those kind of moments then if it feels profound to me then I think the picture will be be profound you know so and it and you know it feels like it feels like a sort of cheat code that I get to play you know music it feels you know it's like a su it's an it such an easy thing to do in a way like the musician has done all the work and now I'm just using that you know and I and I I think I think if somebody if a sitter is I don't know like you know like we're saying there's sort of you know you're guarded when you first meet somebody or in this sort of situation but like a a musician is sort of bearing their soul then it gives the person who's listening to the music it's like oh I that's what I have to do you know like that that musician is is is bearing all of their like pain or you know is talking about something like you know I I can empathize with that and I can do that now here.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah it's almost like a language informed by the musician to go and express themselves right to go and feel comfortable you know expressing themselves in whichever way they want to and I I know what you mean by like finding a little not a hack but like you're almost like you know you said a cheat sheet is that something that you you embrace or you know I I speak to a lot of photographers me including it's like if it's not difficult I don't feel like it's worth it if that makes sense. Like it's if the photograph is too easy or the experience is too easy I'm just like well it's not very good then because I didn't work hard enough for it. Do you find that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah just about but I think yeah if it's if it's too easy doesn't feel yeah I think that's true. I think if somebody comes in to see me and they are they can be overconfident I suppose or they can just be very like you know think that they know exactly what I want them to do and then and it's I always feel like you know that's that's not really what we're looking for. You have to you can't fake it really I suppose is is how I feel. I want yeah I want them to to to kind of give me more I think some older actors who conversely I mean talking about like lack of experience like I think in a way sort of over experience can be problematic as well in a sense where somebody kind of they've done loads of headshots done loads of portraits so like I know what I know how to do this let's just crack on and it's like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa and I wouldn't say this but I'm like you're not you're not really showing any respect to the process you know you're not you're not engaging in it deeply enough you know so that can be frustrating but you know sometimes those shoots it's like you know if that's how again I I wouldn't say this but I'm what I'm thinking is like okay well if that's how you if you want to do it this way then that's how we'll do it. Like it is on it is on you but I would rather spend this time getting something more interesting but yeah it's not always possible. So yeah you have to know you have to know I yeah I yeah those can be frustrating I think because it feels like a sort of missed opportunity or you know yeah somebody just not yeah not giving the process it it you know the respect it deserves.
SPEAKER_02:Like not me but the the the process you know is that an indication of that industry or that sector of the industry being quite formulaic generally speaking certainly when it comes to headshots certainly when it comes to kind of like editorial stuff where these people have done it so many times that they're just walking into another room to get headshot and then off they go yeah I think so I think so I had an older a slightly older actress come to see me she was a lovely lady but she was sort of I was trying to explain my process and like listen to the music and you know I could sort of sense she was just like didn't get it and you know in a sort of image saturated world you know I think you've got it doesn't like it it's a paradox with it doesn't matter what you look like in a way like what what matters is like what are you are you communicating anything through the image even just the fact that you're like a human being like is that is that you know and uh okay it's a headshot but who who are you trying to appeal to really and it and fundamentally it's like okay there's there's the actors there's the agents there's the casting directors and then the casting directors are using the images by talking to like producers and directors and sometimes like writers you know and all these creative visual people and so it's like look you can afford to speak an interesting creative language it's you know like okay fine if you're working in commercials and you're selling toothpaste or whatever maybe it doesn't matter but if you want to be doing interesting theatre or you know it's it's a creative industry you're in.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah like you could be interesting like it it can be it can be and she was like no like people look at headshots and they go pretty not pretty pretty not pretty you know and I was like I mean maybe that's how it used to be but I I don't think it's like that anymore and I was surprised at just like wow it's dismissive of like you know and it's like and I and I and it's also like I think think of this process as like a discrete creative project that you can make good like we can make something good together that is interesting outside of any of that context. And timeless yeah yeah just exactly like an image for your great grandchildren to be like wow like look at great grandmother in like 2025 like wow like you know it's be gonna be hopefully be yeah this was before ai like how how how did people took how do people take images back then manually that's crazy. Yeah yeah yeah exactly exactly yeah who knows who knows so yeah it's can be quite hard if yeah people are not sort of and I don't expect again I don't expect people to come into the room and know that because they're just like I've just been told I need a headshot I'm gonna go and get a headshot you know but then like once you're in the room it's like okay let's you know let's make something interesting.
SPEAKER_02:Do they often like raise their eyebrows about the length of time? I mean you must brief them like I'm gonna need you for four or five hours maybe did they do you get some raised eyebrows at that I mean people I mean I'm I'm finding I take less time now to be fair I suppose just put miles davis on and it happens fast yeah yeah so sometimes sometimes four rarely over four hours now I suppose four or five I don't know three two to four I suppose is pretty part no I think I think generally people are happy to spend time because I mean what I do isn't particularly cheap so it's like they there's a sense of wanting to get their money's worth I suppose and but it yeah it's a it's an energy thing like I shoot earlier this week you know excellent actress did sort of you know kind of hit the ground running in a in a way you know we're getting pretty good stuff earlier on was sort of into got my process and so and then so there's there's you know you can I can sort of feel this sort of pattern where you're sort of you know you're sort of getting good stuff and then there's kind of this point where like you just sense that the we're both kind of knackered and and then you you know I'll often sort of try and shoot through that a bit and sense can like well we get a second wind but sometimes it's like ah no no we we got the good stuff earlier that's fine you know and and then sometimes yeah I could be like working with somebody for two hours and sort of thinking to myself you know maybe maybe maybe we do have the good stuff maybe it's that's as good as we're gonna get and then I sort of sense like oh I know now I think they they have finally got it like okay great and then we shoot for another two hours because it's like it's taken two hours for them to kind of interesting yes it was going to be one of my questions like how you maintain that energy but also how you identify when you know you can sometimes force it right and how to identify when when you've got enough and and when I think you've just answered that question yeah yeah I I feel like well I was gonna say I feel like I'm sort of like you know like ringing ringing out a flannel or something of water and it's like I kind of I kind of want to know it's like that's it.
SPEAKER_00:It's done.
SPEAKER_02:There's nothing because again I I I want to know that I've taken the best picture you know I don't want to no regrets yeah no leave nothing left leave leave nothing out there. Yeah. Yeah exactly I feel like you know sometimes though when I I go home and like I'm just I'm completely exhausted like I it is it is quite a sort of physically and mentally draining process actually and as I get older I sort of it's the people side of it right it's the human connection it's not just like thinking about the photograph like what how do I get a photograph like technical stuff lighting composition all of that kind of stuff is I'm sure like most professional photographers is just second nature most of the time it's it's exhausting like spending one hour with another human and engaging them or needing to engage them or or get them somehow connecting with you all the time one hour is is it is exhausting a a teacher knows that right or a mentor or what you know even with podcasts like just that kind of intentional conversation and trying to kind of get something out of it it's it's tiring let alone two hours three hours four hours it's you know any photographers out there didn't portrait photographers out there can kind of empathize with that that's why I kind of even my eyebrows are a little bit raised when I found out some of the length of your lengths of your portrait sessions but that's why the results are so amazing. And tell me by the way I just want to like mention for for our non-uk audience that's the first time I've heard the word flannel for many years and I miss it. I love that word but I'm just trying to think of like the European or or or American alternative I guess just like wet towel right yeah yeah but I was thinking as well like is there a more I think that's probably quite a UK word I was thinking is there a more international what is a flannel it's like a small wet towel like a a loofah I don't know like face towel face towel face towel a face towel yeah yeah yeah anyway let's pivot a little bit I want to kind of now move into the business side of things and I want to like understand what you do with these images. Obviously like this one thing getting them and then you know what give us an idea of your business model surrounding these types types of shoots I mean like a lot of photographers I don't know I mean I don't I don't consider myself a very good businessman at all so I I have a I have a separate website for my kind of headshot actor business because like working with actors you're basically charging a lot less than you would do a for any kind of commercial shoot brand shoot I suppose so so you kind of have to keep the two things separate.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah I mean I have a couple of different packages for want of a better term I suppose where people can depending on their budget I suppose I get a rough idea of how much time and not effort but yeah I don't know and I I suppose if somebody somebody could basically spend buy like a a portrait shoot uh and then I know I'm gonna sort of pull out all the stops and then but somebody might just kind of want a quick headshot and they bring you know they they're a student or they're a you know young actor and they don't have a big budget and you know it's not really it's not sort of a huge amount of money at that end that I charge but I I kind I like working with actors and so I don't I don't want to kind of not do that work actually. And so and you know the slightly annoying thing is I st I I you know it's important that I only work with like one person a day. So but yeah if somebody's not paying me a huge amount of money like it I I know that I can I can kind of call it after a couple of hours if I if I want to you know like I've given them the you know what I've said I'll give them it might be somebody that I'm enjoying working with and will sort of work longer but yeah that side of I mean all of my business is word of mouth like I don't you know I don't do an uh other than Instagram I don't have any I don't do any marketing at all.
SPEAKER_02:Wow which that's awesome I should do well no I mean it's not awesome really I should do I should do more but I'm I'm too busy taking pictures which is what I enjoy doing and so oh it's just so difficult isn't it we all just want to have a camera in hand and go out and just do the process but we have to like you know certainly if you you rely on that for income you have to do all of the stuff that you know the marketing and the admin and the legal stuff and the pitching and the oh it's just nonstop and this now there's the social media stuff and oh what do I need to know about AI to just to not be obsolete in two years time right and it's just kind of just keeping all of this keep keeping up with all of it.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly keeping all those sort of balls in the air but I think I think I'm not I don't know I'm I'm not very good at like emailing the same people like over and over again and not getting a response I suppose. It's just like and so you know I do get I do get bits of commercial work come in like I've gotten I've gotten lazy in the sense that I like my my studio and my process and the way I kind of work is what interests me. I don't know like working with sort of big agencies on projects with like loads of voices and uh just find I'm like as I get older I'm more and more like I don't know I'd rather do just lots of small jobs. I'm happy doing that and like you know yeah I don't know just just working on I can't I've never really been good at pretending that I care about your brand you know I can like I can like the people but I it's just not you know so with just through word of mouth like how how many shoots are you doing a week because it's obviously quite intensive and that's like a whole day basically to do a shoot right yeah I try and keep it to to three like this this week was four and yeah it's a bit too much occasionally it's five and it I I'm unwell so you don't need to market you don't need to do marketing then really if you're you know your main revenue stream is well the marketing is the pictures themselves I suppose and then you know like I'm lucky that actors it's a self-propagating network where actors talk to actors working with other actors you know so uh and you know actors should be getting new images every two or three years so I get repeat work as well that way uh and yeah and it you know and that's actually one of the real joys in what I do is working with the same actor sort of over time.
SPEAKER_02:So you know some actors now I've worked with three four five times over the past sort of 13 years 13 14 years and so seeing how we've both sort of developed as as artists is is one of the real joys I think when I'm older and I look back at my work and I'm like oh wow like you know I started work we started working together when you were like 17 and now you're 60 and like you know we've got this amazing archive of images that we've made together like what a joy that will be I think you know I can sense like what really matters for you is is the people right it's yeah okay the photographs are extremely important that's what you do but you know what's deeper and more enjoyable than that or more meaningful is the connections you have with the people especially those those that come back would that be would that be true yeah yeah I think so but I mean I think that's true for every everyone really in everything like whatever job you're doing like if you don't like the people you're working with or like you know or or if you don't that's that's that's really what what what we're all doing I suppose is just yeah good point communicating with other people and yeah trying to make interesting things speak make interesting things speak off the page and when when we think about the actual I guess these days pixels right I know you've you've done a book a a while ago I don't have my hands on a on a copy of it but I've I've seen kind of some of the pages online is that something that really like you would want to go into more I know you've done done the odd exhibition as well and and prints is you know we live in a world of just screens and digitization is that something that interests you like obviously as photographers we love to see you know physical photographs rather than just something on on a on a laptop screen or a phone screen is that something that you have planned for the future yeah yeah yeah I would definitely want to make another book yeah I love I love um I love photography books I guess I always feel like you know what if my what if my I mean I and you I I have made a a book already and that was that was interesting to do and yeah I definitely want to make another one but I always feel a bit like oh what if like what if I take a really good picture next week and that that's I don't know not that's not in the book.
SPEAKER_00:It's like so I don't know I I find it hard to sort of draw a line in the sand and sort of see my work as a as a body of work but yeah I tried you know I don't get much kind of industry interest in my work really like from I sort of again like approached a couple of publishers and just been like I don't know do you want to have a meeting or anything and like I get nothing. I get not not even like a response so it's it's sort of feels like I don't know I just continue to make the work and then I don't know I will I will do something at some point. Yeah and it's it is it is nice seeing making big prints and sort of displaying them I do I do enjoy that process. I think it is important to see work in print so yeah so I will I will do another another one at some point but it's yeah it's a it's a it's an it's a entirely sort of separate creative process that is very hard.
SPEAKER_02:You made a book no but I'm working on potentially one it's hopefully within the next year I'll be I should be in a position to to finish the work by kind of Q1 next year and then it's then it's going out into the big bad world and finding a publisher and pitch it and doing all that pitching and networking and all that kind of stuff which is I guess part of the challenge and some of the joy but you know that these types of endeavors which it can be so fulfilling for us as photographers they a lot of the time they cost a shitload of money. They don't make you anything other than potentially a bit of authority in the space or a bit of reputation and maybe a widening of a network and a few more opportunities that might come from it. But in terms of like a a revenue stream a book is probably you know you Got to be like top 1% to really kind of make a good living from selling photo books. It's more like you said, it's more like a separate creative endeavor that's just we do for fun or for an artistic kind of output, right? An artistic kind of in endeavor, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I sold all my you know, I made 300 and I sold them all and they you know they went all around the world, which was really nice. But who is your publisher? I just self-published. I just I just did it myself. Yeah, I spoke to a guy called good photographer called Neil McDermott, who has made some nice books, and yeah, he was like the only way you'll ever even really break even is if you self-publish. Like going through a publisher is gonna cost you money weirdly. You know, I and this is going back like this is sort of just about pre-COVID, I suppose. All this is all constantly changing. So, I mean, who knows now?
SPEAKER_02:But uh I see it more of like a marketing tool, like a marketing expense almost. Like obviously, you don't want to lose money on a book. If you I think if you can break even with a publisher, then you're doing all right. If you make any money, then you're doing great. But you know, they both have pros and cons because if you self-publish, you've got to I don't know, it's like a maze, isn't it? And then you know, a publisher might come with a bit of gravitas and some, you know, obviously a skill set that you would have to learn yourself, and maybe some networking and some connections that would be really proud uh powerful for you. But they take they take a huge cut quite rightly, but yes.
SPEAKER_00:I think I mean they take take everything, basically. You might you know, like you say, so it ends up being like a marketing kind of thing. But yeah, I mean I would probably try and go through a publisher again purely because I think just sending the the process of set sending, not even like the marketing, because I didn't really have to do a huge amount, but just sending it the books, and then ones getting like caught up in various customs and people having to pay like all of that sort of stuff, and you know, and then at various and I feel like the world now, like all of that sort of stuff is particularly volatile, isn't it? I know a couple of weeks ago, like the US were like gonna start charging like you know, set extra tax on these particular book imports, and then they didn't, and then they did again, you know, and it's like so yeah, all of that sort of stuff is just a headache, which yeah, you're once publisher or whatever, you know, but we can do all of that sort of stuff for you.
SPEAKER_02:So, how do you see the next, you know, how do you see I mean, both the macro and micro environments in your world? Like I don't want I've talked about AI so much, I you know, either just with myself or with with other podcast guests, and I don't really want to kind of go into that again. It's kind of there and we'll deal with it. But where where do you see portraiture like being what is the future of it? You know, it could headshot world, portraiture. How do you see that evolving or devolving over the next, I mean, five to ten years? Do you think it's gonna change much? Or do you think kind of this essence of human connection through portrait photography will always be as prominent and profound as it is now?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean I I'd like to think like I I don't I don't really think about it in a sort of hugely broader context in a way, but I mean I I think what I do, I'd like to think what I do like has a value and has created a sort of a way of doing things that you know has a has a real value. And I think you know the AI for me without going too deep into AI, like sort of made me think about like well what is the point of what I do? Like, you know, if like what is it and I think you know that's that's fine. It's like what what can what can you do that AI can't do? You know, and I think if you're if you're an artist or you know, photographer and you're like, oh actually, you know, we don't we don't need stock photography anymore. Like we don't need p p pictures of people in an office standing around pointing at a laptop holding a cup of coffee anymore. But then if there wasn't you know what I mean? That but that wasn't that wasn't really art anyway, right? That was just like that was always commerce, and so now AI can do that for us. So so those photographers I guess are done. I would like to think what I do is is different to that and has and has value. Yeah, I I think with my sort of optimistic kind of cap on, I think AI might actually make what what sort of good photographers do more valuable.
SPEAKER_02:I'm with you on that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's that kind of capturing, you know, real sort of human interactions and sort of taking things on to a sort of a sort of higher level in like how and what you're trying to sort of communicate uh you know, the the deep sort of humanness of the portrait situation and the sort of stuff we've been talking about, you know, hopefully that sort of becomes more valuable. So yeah, for me it's a sort of slow but kind of constant evolution, I suppose, in like how I work and what I do. And I don't I don't really plan it too much, but I do sort of notice you know, I look back, I suppose, at pictures I took sort of three or four years ago, it's like okay, like I am doing things in a slightly different way, or so I don't I don't really try and overthink it too much. And I feel like I'm yeah, you sort of I suppose look look to the past or you know, to help you inform the future in some ways, or you know, I'll discover a new artist or photographer that inspires me, and it'll be like, oh, I'll start I'll go down that road a little bit. But in a way, like not really trying to sort of reinvent the wheel or you know, I so I suppose it's there's a sense of like the more you know, the more things change, the more they stay the same, where you know, like technology and society kind of evolves and changes, I change and evolve and stuff, but like you know, you can look at portraits from 2000, 3000 years ago and they're kind of doing the same thing where it's like if it's there's it the Greek portraits they found, you know, and they're they're they're beautiful, and they the person that created them, I think, essentially doing what I do, you know, and like and just that that's that that fundamental idea that as the when the viewer looks at the the image they sense that there's another human being there, and that's you know, that's the that's the that's the connection you're trying to make when you've converted the 3D world into a 2D world, you're just saying like, oh you look, you're not alone. There's you know, there's another human being there.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's like a little visual hug, isn't it? And and do you find you know, I'd love to hear your thoughts because I know I know that you you come up against this something, or maybe not come up against it, but you observe it sometimes that and I imagine it's the case that many people try to copy your style and the way the way you present your images, which is I guess just just a byproduct of the world that we live in today. It's it's especially if you put your stuff online for everyone to see, people are just gonna rip it, right? But obviously, like everything that we've talked about for the last hour or so is is why your photographs are so profound and unique, and you know, there is a voice there, it's not about style, right? There's a big difference between style and voice. So I would love to hear what you think because we've wrapped we we've started to wrap this up, but for those younger photographers starting to come into space, looking up to the likes of Phil Sharp and just going, Well, I really want to do what he does, and I want to do it as well as he does, but I want to do it my own way. How can people go and figure out what their voice is? It's one thing learning style, and it's kind of more the technical side of things, but how can they really give me some tips and some advice as to how people can really figure out that voice? I don't know. I don't know. Just go and do it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Like, I think finding that balance between like inspiration and then like doing it your way is is is tricky. I think I don't know, I think it's hard to I don't know, you if you try and if you try and sort of replicate something too much, you know, it always just looks like a sort of bad sort of facsimile, you know. It's it's sort of because I don't because you're not you're not really putting yourself into it. You know, you're not you you haven't in a sense you haven't done like the hard yards to like get to that point to sort of understanding like why you're sort of making the choices that you are and so you know it I there's I'm inspired by other photographers, and I will see something that a photographer's done, and I'm like, oh, I wonder if I can sort of bring that into my work in a way, and so we are you know are all doing it all the time, but I think you have to you have to set yourself high standards for your own work, I think. The highest possible standards, and and really be like, you know I I think when you're younger you have to kind of be like, okay, well this this this photograph I've taken, like it's better than the one I took last week, but it's still terrible. You know, like so why is it why is it why is it so bad? Like, let me take a better one next week and and kind of really go through that pain to to sort of to make yourself get better. I think if you just look at another photographer and think, well I'll just do that uh and just cop and copy it perfectly, it it's like I don't I don't know, it might it might you know you might still it might work on a level, but I just think you you're you're not you're you're lacking something fundamental. Some something sort of yeah, I don't know, just yeah, you just haven't you gotta you just gotta take loads of photographs. Like it's such a boring answer.
SPEAKER_02:No, yeah, yeah. I mean it's everyone's answer.
SPEAKER_00:I yeah, I don't know, you sort of I I set myself up in a situation where I want I wanted to be like working all the time basically to get better as a photographer. So I just wanted to be shooting as often as possible. And so even when I wasn't being commissioned, I was just I just would set up shoots, you know, just walking down the street and seeing people and being like, oh, you know, can I take your picture? Actually, can can can we meet up in a couple of days and like do so, you know, just you know, just uh yeah, just relentlessly taking pictures. And I just don't, yeah, there's no I just don't think there's any real shortcuts. It's like you just gotta you gotta do it, and then like I suppose look back over your work and just sort of piece things together and be like, well, what are what is it I'm interested in actually, you know.
SPEAKER_02:That then that is it. It's it's like part of being a good artist or in whatever kind of subgenre is real, it's kind of getting to know yourself. And I think this is a bit of a kind of soppy answer, but getting to know yourself a little bit and knowing yourself, knowing what you'd like and what you're bad at, what you need to be better at, what's interest to you, what drives your curiosity, and and just kind of going down these avenues, these Swiss cheese holes, until you figure out okay, like okay, this is really where I feel comfortable.
SPEAKER_00:And even though obviously the commercial side of photography is is really crucial if you want to you know do it professionally, you you've got to sort of balance that with like people people will eventually hire you because you have an artistic approach, and especially more and more in the AI age, it's like so the the weirdnesses, your weird interests, your weird psychological makeup or whatever, like that's what ultimately is gonna be interesting to other people. So don't don't pander to what you think other people sort of want to see. You know, your the weird pictures that you make, that those are gonna be the interesting ones, and then you know, maybe you'll find a way of like turning that into something that you can sort of sell to other people, or you can find it in a way to sort of, you know, I wish I'd have known that earlier, actually, like not to sort of try and not try and please some imaginary client that I didn't even have. It's like the you know, the weird, and you know, know that your that your life is interesting, like your family, your friends, the places that you go, you know, all of that stuff is interesting. So your job as a photographer is to like make it visually interesting to other people. Like learn to take pictures of the mundane in an interesting way, which is uh yeah, ultimately what I've done, I suppose, is like people's faces. You know, we see people's faces all the time, but it's like so in what in some way it's um it's a mundane thing, right? But within it, it can be endlessly fascinating. So like I personally find like most images of like sunsets and bridges quite boring. Bridges, you know, like you know what I mean, like those types of images. Like wave going over some rocks, like you know, seeing the same picture a lot.
SPEAKER_02:A million times, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and you know, I'm being glib, but like it can be pretty pretty boring. So I think but if I uh yeah, if I was you know, so I'd growing up in like in my teens, I suppose in Milton Keynes a sort of new city, which to me was quite boring place to sort of grow up in lots of ways. But like if I you know, if I'd have if I'd have had somebody to tell me like, no, no, this is like a particular place and a particular time in history, those weird little things that you're interested in as you walk to school or whatever, those textures on that underpass, or like, you know, this building, or you know, like all of that stuff is interesting. It will be, you know, is it is it actually interesting? If you find it interesting, there'll be somebody else that finds it interesting. So like those those things are what's what other people will yeah, find interesting, and like the weirder the better, I suppose. You know, embrace that sort of weirdness within you, because that's actually what's interesting.
SPEAKER_02:Well, Phil, you must be so weird because you're so good at what you do. But you know, you've you've been great to talk to you. Thank you so much for for joining me. I'm extremely tempted now to when I'm over in the UK next, uh, give you a call and and buy one of your packages. But I'd love to love to be photographed by you one day because I think you're you're I don't really photograph other photographers, actually. Oh, okay. Well, maybe I can convince you.
SPEAKER_00:We could certainly have a coffee or a beer or something, but yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02:All right. Well, I won't.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I I know what that's like. It's not uh it's not a nice experience. Look, Phil, thank you so much. Uh Lady, get on with your the rest of your day, and you know, I know the audience is gonna absolutely love hearing what you've had to say. And uh I wish you all the best. We'll look out for another book, and and in the meantime, keep keep up the incredible work. You're inspiring more people than you realise. I know that. So yeah, thank you once again.
SPEAKER_00:Oh nice. Well, thanks very much for for having me on. I enjoyed it. All right, cheers, Phil. Cheers, mate.
