The One Question That Helped Rich-Joseph Facun Find His Photographic Voice, E116

In this episode, Matt sits down with Rich-Joseph Facun, a celebrated American documentary photographer, former photojournalist of 15 years, and founder of the independent publishing imprint Liars Corner. 

In this conversation we discuss his three monographs: Black Diamonds, Little Cities, and 1804, the ethics of street and portrait photography, photographing strangers in Trump-era Appalachia, walking away from photojournalism, finding your photographic voice, and why the global photo book industry urgently needs more marginalised and Indigenous voices.

Other things we discussed:

• Street portraiture, approaching strangers, and consent in documentary photography
• Growing up in a Southern Baptist military family and door-to-door evangelism as training for portrait work
• Photographing Trump-supporting Appalachia as a person of colour with a trans child
• The viral portrait of a stranger with a damaged forehead tattoo crying on the street
• Quitting photojournalism after 15 years and the identity crisis that followed
• Why he stopped using Rembrandt lighting and the decisive moment in his portrait work
• How to find your photographic voice after mastering the craft
• Self-publishing a photo book vs pitching to independent publishers
• The making of Black Diamonds, Little Cities, and 1804
• Launching Liars Corner as an Indigenous-owned photo book imprint in Appalachia
• Elitism, gatekeeping, and barriers to entry inside the global photo book publishing industry
• Mentoring emerging documentary photographers and funding their first monographs
• Why awards, accolades, and staff photographer positions stopped mattering

Rich-Joseph Facun
Instagram: https://instagram.com/facun
Website: https://facun.com
Imprint: https://liarscorner.press

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Transcript

Trailer

Matt 0:00

Having been a photojournalist for I think 15 years, it's a long time to be getting better and better and better at what you do. So then to stop.

Rich-Joseph 0:09

It's been very challenging. If you weren't a photographer making a living as a photojournalist, what would your photography be?

Matt 0:15

What is it that you see in strangers that makes you reach for your camera?

Rich-Joseph 0:19

Everyone looks interesting to me to some degree. We are naturally attracted to people that we see, something about them that we're mirroring or reflective of our own self. Everyone's got a story, and I'm down to hear someone's story.

Matt 0:32

There's a huge responsibility on the photographer to be ethical, have dignity, respect, but also portray the people that you're photographing in a respectful manner.

Rich-Joseph 0:43

Whenever image I make, there's some accountability. People are looking at that.

Matt 0:47

What is involved in that challenge?

Rich-Joseph 0:49

Where'd I even start?

Introducing Rich Joseph Facun

Matt 1:02

Rich Joseph Fakun, what a pleasure to have you on the Mood Podcast. Thank you for joining me.

Rich-Joseph 1:07

Thanks for having me. It's gonna I'm looking forward to this.

Matt 1:10

Yeah, sorry to uh for for those listening. Um Rich Joseph is a little bit under the weather, so we appreciate him even more spending some time with us. So if you hear the odd splatter or cough, then you know why. So sorry to sorry to hear you not so great.

Rich-Joseph 1:26

Thank you.

Matt 1:27

Um, I wanted to start with an opening question. Usually I'll get people to kind of give me a background, but for you, I think I don't know, I'm I'm a huge fan, and and you've been going for a long enough time that we, you know, it might take um 10, 15 minutes just to kind of wade through your background, which we're gonna get to. I'd rather just kind of feed it in as we go. But one thing I'm interested in is how you see people and how you figure out to yourself that you want to take a photo of that person or of that community of those people. So, what is it that you see in strangers that makes you reach for your camera?

Rich-Joseph 2:05

I mean, honestly, I think it's just a mirroring of, and I think this is might be true for a lot of people photographers, um, or people in general, where I think that we are naturally um attracted to uh people that we see something about them that is mirroring or reflective of our own self, or piques our curiosity. So it's a I think it's kind of a a coupling of both that um a degree of curiosity of who this person is, and you see their fit their face or their body language or their present, how they present themselves, and it piques your curiosity and you want to know more about them or what's their story, you know, where they where are they coming from and or where they where have they been. But at the same time, I think it's also just this um natural intuitive feeling that you have when you pass people on the street or when you're driving down the road, and um something about them connects you or you see yourself within that person, whether it's male or female or some other gender. Um it's just I think just this intuitive bond. Um so I don't know.

Matt 3:19

Where do you think that curiosity comes from? Because I I share your in fact, I think I share a lot of your philosophies and the way you think about life with your camera, uh, with yourself. But where do you think that curiosity is driven from? Because a lot of people don't have that curiosity. So is it your upbringing? Is it your background? Is it the the fact that you potentially moved into and you have a you know mixed heritage and maybe um you know identities thrown on you that weren't maybe resonant with how you felt and this thing you have with labels and you know, and maybe I'm putting words into your mouth, but is would that any of those hit the right notes?

Rich-Joseph 4:02

I think some of them for sure. I but I think in general though, um it might stem back from even my upbringing from my dad, my dad was in the military, so we moved every, I think on average, every three years to a different uh town or city, whatever, different port. And um, you know, being the new kid in school every few years, I mean, you either can sit and be quiet and um stay to yourself and be lonely, or you can um, or you can try to make friends and talk and and uh and be uh you know, be genuine, be yourself, but hopefully connect with somebody. I mean, all you need is one good friend, you know, they don't have to be down with everybody. But um, so I think maybe part of that started there, just um being comfortable uh talking with strangers and talking with people. And then then as I was coming up, you know, um, I had so many different jobs as a as a teenager. A lot of those jobs are going door to door, um, like door to door setting leads for window replacements or trying to raise money for Greenpeace or uh what else did we do? Oh, I think, oh, when I'm and I think if I I just remembered this. I think when I was um living in Mississippi, which is for your listeners that um that are not familiar with the states, the it's the deep south of the U.S., which is very um heavily uh populated by Baptists, Southern Baptists, and that's the traditional what you see in the movies where they they uh baptized you know the people in the rivers or in the waters, and that's part of the practice. And during that time in my life, I was raised Southern Baptist, which is really odd, but that's a whole nother story. But um, and if I I just remembered like part of my childhood, we would um go door to door, and uh I guess as a uh in that uh religion, you know, you you're out trying to uh save people's souls. And so uh so I you know, even being very young, I think at that time I probably was from kindergarten to about third grade. So I was going door to door with my with my mom and my sister or other church members and knocking on doors and uh preaching the good word. And um, so it's like, so I mean, I, you know, so you know, you think about those types of experiences, and then um, and then also like coming up as a skateboarder, um, starting around age 12, not you know, not really being confined to just my bedroom being on my phone like a lot of kids today, or being online was more you know interactive life where we're outside and I'm and I'm skating and I'm roaming the streets and I'm in different places, um, meeting different people, different ages, different socioeconomic backgrounds. And um it never, you know, and it never occurred to me that, well, why wouldn't I talk to somebody? So I think that ability to just kind of like socialize and make friends. I mean, my wife was more of an introvert. I'm an introvert nowadays too. We live out in the woods and I really try not to, I don't really like going to town much anymore. But if you get me out and around people, like I just want to talk and get to know you or ask your questions, or you know, if you look, I don't even know if you have to, I mean, everyone looks interesting to me to some degree, like something about that. I might be standing in line to, you know, get a drink or buy a ticket and to the movies or something, and I just strike up a conversation because I think everyone's got a story, and I'm down to hear someone's story. Like, I mean, yeah, everyone has a story, and I love hearing people's stories, and I learned love learning from people, and I think it's a great way to pass the time and uh and just learn about your community. So I I love it. So I think that's a big part of where it all comes from. Just I think when it comes down to it, it's just the love of people and love of stories and sharing stories and uh swapping ideas and concepts and um just seeing where that common ground is between people and between yourself and your community.

Politics, Safety And Finding Common Ground

Matt 8:02

Sorry to cut away from the episode for a minute, but I wanted to talk to you about something very quickly. Now, I spent a long time thinking that isolation was part of the deal when it came to photography. That if you were serious about the work, you did it alone. You'd consume enough, watch enough, read enough, and eventually it would all cohere into something meaningful. And it sometimes did. But mostly I was just alone with my doubts and no one to push back on them. What changed things for me wasn't a course or a workshop. It was a conversation with someone who was doing the same kind of work and cared about it in exactly the same way I did. The doubts didn't disappear, but they got a little bit smaller, and I felt more okay with them. They got named. That's what I'm building with the Mood Insiders. It's a place where the work is taken seriously, where you can bring your questions and, of course, your half-finished ideas, and where someone will actually engage with them. We have the ad-free extended podcast episodes with bonus content. We have monthly masterclasses, QA sessions, and of course the weekly book clubs and direct direct access to me and my team because you don't have to do this alone. So the link is in the show notes, and hopefully, I'll see you inside. Do you love people in today's world? That sounds like a nope, that's fair. I feel like there's two we see uh humans, we see, especially in the world of digitized, digitized media. And you know, I won't even get into politics and all that kind of stuff, but we have this world where we look out and we get all of our information, you know, we're we're subsumed consumed with just so much information at our fingertips, wherever we want to do. If we want to get information, we just go online. And that kind of breeds this misanthropy, I think, and this kind of not hatred of people, but just like this pessimistic, you know, fearful view of people and the world. But then we have this internal, certainly kind of on the more micro sense when we go into our local town or we come across, you know, a colleague or a loved one or a friend or a friend of a friend, or go out for dinner, go have a coffee. And 99% of the time we have wonderful experiences and we remind ourselves how amazing people are. And I think that's I'm answering the question for you. I was talking too much on this episode.

Rich-Joseph 10:38

No, let's let's have a conversation, that's what we're here for. We're all talking.

Matt 10:43

Love of people. I mean, I share that with you when I have a camera in hand, but when I go and you know, certain topics arise with strangers or you see things online, and uh, you know, great example would just be a YouTube comment. You know, something that's so small, you just go, the is wrong with people. Um, and so this is kind of like these two different words. Do you share the same experiences? Because you just talked about how much you know you resonate and love being around people.

Rich-Joseph 11:12

Yeah, I mean, I guess there's a few different uh questions or answers to that. I'll start with one is the beginning is you know, when I started doing my my first monograph, Black Diamonds, um, I had just recently moved to this region. And uh it was right around the time that Trump was running for his his first um term in office. And a lot of people, at least in the media, uh, were talking about and pointing fingers at this part of the region of the country's uh the US saying it was because of Appalachia or it's because of the Midwest, to fly over states that um Trump was, you know, doing so well, and um that there was and it was all driven through racism and pre you know people's prejudices. And having just moved to the area with my family, having just bought some land, um, you know, the we live in Millfield, and so the population there is about 112, 115. Um it's a form of coal mining boom town um from ages ago. There's not much happening there now. So, you know, hearing these things, I was you know a little concerned about how this community would receive me. Um how would how were my family safe? Were they, you know, did I bring them to a where did I bring them? And so um, so with those questions of mine, I you know, I I've always kind of been one to want to find out um the the a truth for myself. It might just be my truth, and I guess I'll just argue and just say that it is just my truth because it's my own personal experience. But based on my on my own personal experience, I was like, okay, well, let me just go out, cruise around, let me meet my neighbors. And the easiest way for me to meet people is through, and probably with you and many photographers, is just having that camera in your hand because I wouldn't pull over on the side of the road and just like get out of my truck and say, like, hey, how are you doing, buddy? You know, like, but I have a camera in my hand. I just, it's like my uh permission slip to go and bug anybody, and they can tell me to go away, and that's fine, I'll respect their space. But like it really is uh my permission slip to just literally pull into their driveway, um, and especially out here in a rural area where I don't pull all the way up into their house. I'll just pull to the edge of their driveway. Um because even when people pull into my driveway, my wife and I both are like, who's coming out of drive? Who is that? Like you get very possessive of your land. And you know, because people aren't usually pulling in your driveway unless they know you and you know that. Yeah, yeah. Um, so uh, you know, I pull in gently, take a peek out, you know, take a walk up and try to say hello. You know, usually the person's out in their y'all, their property or whatever, but um so yeah, you know, so I'm just going out and doing that same thing when I started Black Diamonds, meeting my neighbors, meeting my community, um, stopping uh anytime I saw somebody of interest or anyone I was curious about. Um, and thankfully people were very receptive. Um, most people said it would be fine if I made a portrait of them. And those who weren't interested in being photographed, they would still hang out and talk with me. Um, and I would still do the same. I didn't want to just roll up and say, hey, will you can I make your portrait? And if you say no, then okay, I don't care. Like, I don't care about you, you're not gonna get what I want. I'm leaving. Like I would hang out and talk because like I still want to know about them, find out what their story is. Um and so that was a big uh catalyst to like just getting to know my community is is through Black Diamonds and finding out you know how I would be received. And then if you fast forward, that was I think 2000 I don't know, 2000 something, but anyway. Um fast forward till present day and um still now Trump is back in office, but the that say that vibe that that I think a few things have changed. I've lived here for um over just over a decade now. Um I'm still an outsider, but like I know the community more. I've done three books now in this region. Um I'm not it doesn't feel so exploratory now. And I think when and the thing when I say with exploratory comes to me like a magical feeling. Um like you're you're you're not only discovering your community, but you also becomes a form of self-discovery. Um and so as the political climate has changed, at least in this region and as and presumably um not only nationally, but recently, I think it's become even worldwide. Um I have seen that shift. And um because when I worked on Black Diamonds, I could drive through the country and I never saw any uh well I won't say never, but there was very few political signs either for either party. Um and I think a couple years ago I went back driving through that well a year ago, year ago, I went back driving through kind of that the routes that I would take when I was working on Black Diamonds, um, just to show a friend of mine kind of you know where the book was made and the different spots I would come to, and and I saw signs in support of Trump like all over the place. So the the political tone has changed and and it's and it's odd, but and it does feel make me feel uneasy, but I feel less reluctant to be out there still, because I still feel like I know the community, and I and I and coming back to what you're saying, where I think what you were saying was that you go out and have you know a drink with your neighbor or stranger or whatever, somebody who may not have the same um political views or same views of you that you may have religiously, politically, um intellectually, whatever the case may be. And but you can sit down and have a drink and um really have a great time, have a great conversation. Um and I think that still happens now, but it's there's a lot less, at least for me. Unfortunately, that I have a lot less um flexibility or willingness to hold my hand out and and try to make uh common ground because like I have a trans child, so and and I'm a person of color, my father was an immigrant.

Matt 17:54

Um you're ticking in all the boxes.

Rich-Joseph 17:57

Yeah, you know, you know, I've I've lived on, you know, I've lived on you know, on welfare. Uh I've had I've received, you know, welfare, um, not welfare, but uh food stamps and wick. Wick is like a uh form of government help for um medical care for your children and your and and the the woman who's carrying a child. Um so I've experienced like I've lived as a with a low-income lifestyle. I don't anymore, but I have in the past, and it was extremely helpful. Um, and it's still helpful for many of my neighbors. Um, and trust me, like nobody wants to be on welfare. Um, but I didn't want to be on it, but it certainly helped me to have some social mobility. Had had I not had welfare, you know, help help from the government, I don't even know that I'd be here talking with you on on you know on this podcast. I don't know that I would have been a photographer. Um I don't think that I would have gone to university and received a degree. I wouldn't be here, period. So so bringing it full circle, it's like, you know, yeah, I want to I want to have conversations with people and I want to see the good in mankind and and uh have that hope. But at the same time, it's it's been very challenging to like um you know, certainly have lost or walked away from certain friendships um from family members, um for you know reasons that I mainly, you know, I just couldn't, I can't accept if you can't accept me, that me being like my wife, my trans child, um, and everything that comes with this, then then we're not down. Like I, you know, I just I can't, it's not because we can disagree on like if on food and we can disagree on, you know, I don't really, I'm not, you know, on drinks or things that are minor, but we cannot disagree on the treatment of uh civil rights for people, um, whether they're from you know a BIPOC community or trans or or an LGBTQ community or an immigrant community, what whatever the case may be, like, you know, if it's gonna harm people or create some form of genocide, anything along those lines, like I'm just not down and I can't, I can't like turn the other cheek and pretend like it's okay because it's not. So that's the hard reality.

Matt 20:29

Uh yeah, I mean, I I agree with you on everything you and and I'm always a proponent of of people having different perspectives because that's innate, that's pathological almost that we have different perspectives on life because we've all had different experiences and also different opinions that stem from those perspectives and experiences. But I think that's healthy, but when you are not able to couple that with empathy and compassion, I just don't, I'm the same, I just don't have time for you. And I mean my wife always have this conversation, it almost seems daily these days, but we just look at each other and go, why can't people just be nice? I mean, it sounds it sounds a bit trumped and it sounds a little bit kidding, but like why can't people just be nice to each other? Why do we, you know, you think about all the wars that are going on at the moment and all the political divides and the hatred that gets that gets thrown around on stuff that really just doesn't matter or shouldn't matter, you just think I just don't understand, I just don't understand. I don't and so there is a limit, isn't there? Like you said, there's this line we just go, but if you can't even attempt to just be compassionate or try and understand or come come at me with some level of human dignity, then I just there's no it's a waste of my time and energy, and it's just gonna we talk about this thing about energy all the time that's so um kind of intangible, but it's present, and you just so many people that just sap energy from you that may be like a that may be like a fuel for photography and art and things like that but in a way in in the way to live life it's just exhausting and so I feel you and I don't blame you at all but is that something basically everything you've just described in this kind of philosophy and the the way that you've evolved as a person and again like we we I do want to go back to your history um in a minute as well as talk about books like Black Diamonds but I just want to kind of double click on this a little bit because it's interesting to me. There's this curiosity but this kind of philosophy on with with people with maybe not politics but with sociology and you know with with your family and kind of the the the battles that you've had in life this is this kind of the fuel for what you photograph like choosing subject matter and this kind of your interest in this this space between human uh I guess divide and human opinion and human experiences. Is that you know kind of it seems to be part of what you like to kind of investigate in with a camera.

Rich-Joseph 23:12

I think it's it's it just it's very um back to being intuitive it's it's just what's natural for me. Prior to being a photographer I you know I was a working class I was blue collar um that's even to the today I still that's who I that type of people that community that's I feel most comfortable around those type of people that feels natural to me um and part of it I think maybe is because I don't feel judged and I'm not judging them. We're just we're kind of on this I feel like we're on the same playing ground playing field and you know it's interesting because you're you know I like that you say like well politics aside like what about from the socioeconomic perspective and like I was working um I've been working on this um short form project for the university here um and it's focusing around this nonprofit um not for profit pharmacy and I've met several of their clients and have asked you know can I come to your home and and make some portraits of you uh as part of this project and um interesting enough you know I you get to their homes not all of them but some of them I've gone to and they literally like one gentleman had a framed picture of Trump on his wall and uh you know I I'm it it kind of baffles me because I'm thinking well do you understand that these this nonprofit pharmacy that is helping your sustain the health of your life is funded by grants that the current president is not supporting. Yeah and I'm I don't bring it up that I don't you know because it's not I'm not there to like preach um or give him a sermon it just but it but I'm curious about that like what is the what is the thought process um and then I also start to think like okay well and I've talked my with my wife about this too I was like you know because my wife's very um uh very much abreast with politics and beyond like I just have her give me the cliff notes because I'm like I can't I can't take all that it was like I'm like hold on babe but um yeah um I was like just give me the the points that I need to know and I'll look more into it but you know so I'm sitting there and I think about these these people that I meet and like I said it's more than one you know it and I'm thinking you guys are coming here every day or every week getting these free meds the political party that you're supporting is against this but you're rocking the hat you've got them on your wall at home I'm like I just so it just because it's not that they don't see it as a political party there's a cult that's you know and I don't well that's where I get kind of confused because I'm thinking well okay so then I go you and I or people like you and I my wife and possibly your wife have have not met her but perceive that like they're this is a cult.

Young Fatherhood And Finding Photography

Matt 26:24

But then on the flip let's like play devil's advocate and like flip the coin I'm like well okay he's they're watching you know this news channel we're watching that news channel that's the truth to them this is the truth to us no no I'm right no no no he's right so like what is the truth um I'm not saying I'm not saying like I'm not choosing a side but if we pause for a moment and step aside and go okay I've done this I like thought to myself okay wait am I am I really is this is my reality real am I tripping like is my interpretation as all the news I'm getting tainted and just progressive rhetoric and they're just preaching to the choir I get that and I I totally agree with you and I I think about I always want to play devil's advocate and I and I understand you know if we're I we're getting into the political weeds here but I understand I actually understand why and how Trump was elected whereas a lot of people just can't accept the reasons why but I understand why people went to him as like this savior figure. I get it. But my when you're talking about the specific example of a photo on the wall or whatever it was on the wall but in their own reality it's completely the contradiction that's we're gonna have a problem yeah but I don't like you have to still be able to see with your own eyes what's happening in front of you and what this person stands for that doesn't correlate with what you're seeing in real life or is negatively affecting your own so that that's where like I think that's why I'm confused man because I'm just like yeah yeah because yeah but from a socioeconomic perspective yeah I'm very curious about people regardless of their political stances um and much of that does stem from my my personal life experience of just um you know having a working class background having traveled and lived all throughout the US and having lived abroad um seeing the way different things different communities different cultures um work some for the better some for the worse um it's always been fascinating to me just to understand how the all the idiosyncrasies and all of the um moving parts of a community and a society and of people in general and I really I enjoy it I mean I just I know it's interesting we're so we're so complex aren't we at the end of the day and everyone's so you're right looking but it could be so simple if we could all just be nice yeah now there comes a point in every photographer's journey where gear or technique stops being the question you've learned your camera you can read light you know how to edit how to produce what a good frame looks like and you can probably make one on demand quite easily but something is still missing the work feels good competent maybe even pretty but it doesn't quite feel completely yours. It doesn't really say anything that couldn't have been said by someone else on Instagram with the same camera. That's the moment most people get stuck not at the beginning but right here right there somewhere in the middle of it in the midst of it where you have all the tools but not really any of the language and the reason it's so hard to move past is because nobody can teach you your voice in a tutorial or a silly little YouTube video. Because it's not a setting on the dumb it has to be drawn out of you slowly by methods and introspections that actually allow you to look at yourself and your work and challenge you with the harder questions all in order to draw out your unique and photographic voice. That's what My Voice Alchemy Mentorship program is. It's an online container for photographers who really already know how to use their camera but want to use it to say something that's more meaningful and that actually matters to them. Personalized strategy, honest feedback and the kind of work that builds a body, a voice and a brand that actually gets noticed it's not a cause it's just the thing I always wished I'd had and it's the thing I now spend most of my days doing. The link is in the show notes so if something in this is calling you hit the link and we'll see where you're at yeah and we could still be beautiful and complex but be nice. Yeah I I just yeah anyway look you mentioned your upbringing your background and earlier you talked about how everyone's got a story and you want to kind of hear their story. Tell us your story I know you ended up in photography by accident you were a young father and you had you know you were moving around and you know issues with schooling and give us a kind of a quick quick overview of the Genesis story how kind of you fell into photography what battles you found and then we'll talk about kind of your your first career steps.

Rich-Joseph 31:45

I mean I never intended to be a photographer um you know just like anybody I think we all enjoyed taking pictures uh started out just photographing the skate community that I was a part of I think I was like from the ages 12 13 and then always snapping photos making little skate zines um and then you know I think about 16 realized like you know oh you're gonna be a dad um and well it was right when I turned 17 so in that bam so and and suddenly I'm like oh damn okay what I'm 17 I'm gonna be a dad I'm not you know I'm failing out of uh 12th grade uh not gonna finish college I mean not gonna finish high school if I don't so how am I gonna do this you know you're 17 years old you're you you got your girlfriend pregnant you're you're thinking you know I'm thinking like what do I do? You know where do I um where'd I even start but surprisingly I mean not having any parental guidance um on any of these matters because we didn't I didn't my mom didn't even know that my girlfriend was pregnant. So we didn't tell either of our parents until um I think she was almost six months pregnant because she was tiny and so she would just wear bigger and bigger clothes. I I'm I'm still baffled as a parent now I'm like how they're so clueless how do they not know like did they just not see I mean I I don't know man maybe they didn't want to see anyway so we you know um so I realized you know okay I either need to I need to finish school now I need to graduate now or else I'm not coming back and I'm not gonna have a college I'm not gonna have my school diploma diploma at the very least so I took like seven bells straight you know took classes during my lunch took night school and then took a class in summer school so I could graduate so my daughter was at my high school graduation and then I was 17 and I think at 20 I think I was 27 or 28 or somewhere around there 29 maybe I I because I didn't go back to college until I was in my late 20s. So she was at my high school graduation and then I pictures of her at my college graduation and the and the time in between there it was a matter of just you know figuring out what what am I going to do obviously her mom and I just ended up splitting up you know because 17 18 years old having a child like that's just not going to happen. So we split up eventually um and I ended up like heading out to New Mexico just to kind of pursue something else and didn't quite work out. Came back actually came back to Virginia because I just felt like I needed to be near my child and still trying to figure things out still eight like no I think at this time I'm like 2021. Ended up doing a lot of blue collar work um everything from tree work to brick mason labor to gutter cleaner um and then eventually I was just I I needed I well I was trying to go back to college eventually I did go back I couldn't get funding because my parents made too much to get aid but too little to help me. So I so I ended up going eventually getting um financial aid though because when I think when you hit a certain age you you no longer they no longer rely on your parents um income. So that happened and then I took this photo class and um was like oh man what do I do now? Because I fell in love again like I was I was I got bit by the bug. Yeah I was like oh my God you know and um and then the end of that class I entered like a um a uh juried exhibition and it won this portrait series and so I ended up doing this workshop with like Bill Eperidge and Carol Goosey and um and they and uh this other guy uh Eric Seals and they were all afterwards it was like a week long workshop and they all asked me you know should I pursue um what was I gonna do with this photography and you know was what was my major and I told him no I'm just I'm just trying to get a fine art credit. And then they were like no you you should really consider you know pursuing photojournalism and they told me about some schools and um so it's kind of torn because you know I already had a game plan. I had a scholarship to go on to a four year university and but at the same time I um I couldn't stop thinking about the the pot the unknown the possibilities you know like um I was still in my 20s and I was in my late twenties which is pretty late but and had a kid but at the same time I was still young enough to feel like to have that um you know when you're young and you're naive and you're and and you haven't been beat up too much by the world yet. And so like so I you know I wasn't afraid to to to take chances I still am not but um but I had that youth that vigor and that you have as a as a young person. And um so I just went for it eventually um you know there's obviously like a lot of the hoops I jumped through but I went for it eventually and like ended up with the university and you know so one year you know I was cleaning gutters and then literally a year later I was like at a paid photo internship and a newspaper my bylines you know being put out there and getting calls to come do um internships the follow you know right after my summer internship was over by you know this um amazing photo editor who used to be uh Mike Davis he was a photo editor at um National Geographic and then moved on to these um these other publications in Chicago and and he um saw something in me and and gave me my second internship and um at that internship there were some amazing photographers there. It was like Todd Heisler who's now at the New York Times uh John Lowenstein um those are just two of the big bigger names that were there but several staff photographers there were just doing amazing work and it was so it was like almost going to grad school but I'm in undergrad and and learning from them and seeing the work they do and then seeing um and hearing the way Mike Davis would would talk about photography um and storytelling and just magic man it was magical and and just a wonderful wonderful opportunity that I could never pay back and I'm so grateful I had that that experience and um from there just kept on going man.

Matt 38:34

So that took you into a a period of photojournalism essentially is that correct? Yes so what was photojournalism kind of the the origin of your interest or lessons that you learned from people or interest in people is that curiosity you already had that but what did photojournalism kind of teach you about people that maybe you you had to learn what did photojournalism teach me about people I don't know that it I think it really just enhanced my relationship with people and I don't know that I can pick like one specific thing that it taught me I think it just again it just enhanced that opportunity to build relationships with community with people with the individual um and it also allowed me to understand that there was a not only responsibility and accountability for the way I presented people or community um in print or online or anywhere that you might see an image of my work.

Rich-Joseph 39:43

And so it really taught me this lesson of like I think I'll go back to accountability and like knowing um like for example being here in Appalachia you know having moved here and work and started working on these projects I didn't I wasn't fully aware of the stereotypes that have been spit out visually um about the region. And I didn't realize the sensitivity of of that the nature of that with the people in the community and so as I'm before I even start making images um or actually not before but kind of they um ran parallel to to each other I um started reading reading about Appalachia and um not not just visual image you know I looked at photo books but also wanted to see the conversations that were already out there and quickly realized oh okay like you need to like be very cautious of how you how you walk this line um so again that went back to accountability and you know even when it came down to like sequencing images and books or pairing images or even then there you know I could see how the slight change in in that could change could create a narrative that I didn't necessarily intend it to. So more than once you know because uh my wife Jasmine she's extremely instrumental in all of the work that I do so there's many times where she would call me out and because I was like trying to push it just like a little bit push it push it just massage it push it um and walk that line where like okay because you do you don't want to just water it down to the point where you're not saying anything but you have fear for offending yeah but you also don't want to misrepresent the narrative that you're trying to uh share share with others or being commissioned to like in the photojournalist world how much are you how much are you getting told of what narrative you need to fit into right that well that happens quite a bit I mean it's not intentional and I that's not not I won't say that specifically to the work I do in Appalachia for for editorial clients but from a long-term perspective or career length view of of of that is um I don't think it's intentional to that photojournalists tend to do that but quite often you know you're given an assignment and um they'll say okay well this is the this is the narrative that the writer's working on this is the topic that we're trying to illustrate um so you have to go make images you don't have to but you choose to take on an assignment and make these images that complement that storyline but but you may be out there working and find and more times than than not I certainly have been where I'm at working and the uh during that lot that arc arc of my career and I've and I've thought to myself oh I know this is a story but this is not what I'm seeing like or this is not what I'm feeling like this is not completely accurate. And I've raised questions about it or gone back to an editor and s and and shared that um sometimes it's well received and and other times you know it's like well my phone's not gonna ring for them again and that's fine because like you know I mean um at the time you know I I wasn't ideal to lose client base but like um I mean I was much younger but it's just it's the nature of the job I mean it's the nature of like people want this particular story to be illustrated and that's the way and there's time constraints whereas if you do personal project like because my next question is going to be how do you avoid the stereotypes?

Matt 43:42

You know we certainly in documentary photography there's a huge responsibility on the photographer to be ethical have dignity risk you know respect but also portray the people that you're photographing in a respectful manner or in the way that they maybe not the way they Want to be portrayed because you know you have a camera and you you have your own style and your own process, but there is there is this kind of like this you know, smoke of ethical responsibility around the whole thing. So, you know, speaking of stereotypes, how do you what is the process and how do you, you know, kind of some tips to avoid those stereotypes? Is it just better research? Is it spending time with the people?

Rich-Joseph 44:25

It what what is what is involved in in that general I think it's for me, it's just being it goes back to again being accountable for your own voice. Um and when that kind of well, for example, um, I think a good example is when I was working um as a photojournalist in Norfolk, Virginia, I worked for this paper called The Virginian Pilot. Um that's that paper is the paper that I first started as delivering the paper as a little boy when I was like 12. Then I went, then it did the whole story we talked about, ended up coming back into you know, finding photography, becoming a photojournalist, getting hired on at the at the paper that I first delivered newspapers for. Um that paper at the time was really well um well known for its use of visuals and it won tons of awards and POI, Pictures of Year International for use of visuals and editing, and also for photography that's been done by um the some of the staff members. So um having grown up in that area and returning back to it and working for the paper, um, having my last name, you know, Facoon, it's like, and there was a time like if your last name was Facoon and you lived in the States, like we were related, like you know, um with such an uncommon name. Um so people would recognize that last name and say, oh, that must be Roberto Roberto's uh son, or that must be Erlinda's uh son, or oh, you know, or he used to work for me, you know, doing tree work, or oh, I used to teach him over at uh Green Run High School, or whatever the case. So people knew my name, they knew who I was, or even childhood friends or even present friends would hold me accountable whether I liked it or not. Like if I got it wrong, they would call me out and tell me, you know, um, and um not rude, but they would spank me, you know, and like tell me, like, nah, man, you've screwed up. But on the flip side, they also would reach out when I when they thought I did a good job and pat me on the back and and you know, add a boy and tell me like, you know, they love what I was doing. Um so the level of kind of of counter accountability working there was like it magnified, it was magnified from anywhere else I worked. But that experience was taught me quickly, like people are watching everything that you do, and you need to keep that same mindset, whether you're working in along the Ganges in India, or if you're in the hills, the foothills of the Appalachia, or if I'm on the res in that Navajo Nation, like however, whatever image I make, um there's some accountability. People are looking at that, and it's going to um inform and uh and create a perception of that person or that community or that idea or that concept. And I have to be I have to own up to that, and I hope so I strive to really get it right. Um But that being said, I still coming from a rel uh, you know, originally my double, I was originally I was a double major in philosophy and religious studies. So coming from that background, I still question the the whole concept of objectivity and um are humans capable of uh being objective? And I and I struggle with that because I I don't think that we are. And it's not a critical perspective, it's simply uh an uh a curious uh uh uh uh stance and a questioning of uh what is documentary photography? What is photojournalism? How are we, how can we be objective? Can we be objective? Um, do we need to redefine um what these labels mean and what types of photography and what you know, what is documentary photography, what is post-documentary photography, what is photojournalism? How do we define those concepts today? Are they are our concepts and definitions of those types of photography outdated? Um, and if they are outdated, what direction are they going? And how do we build from that? Because if we are, if I'm honest with myself, like my life experience is certainly going to, and like we talked about before, it's like just my with identity and socioeconomic experiences and on and on and on. As a human, I can do my best to try and be objective, but but I I can't as a human separate my life experience in the the way I, and then my life experience is going to affect even on a subconscious level, how I interpret and filter the world and frame it within an image. So yeah. And then even on top of it, and that's true. And then even that that even if I did, even if I was able to be 100% objective, then I turn that work around to the editorial client, or if I'm making a book, and then I have to do the edit of how will it how it will be sequenced, how will the images be paired, will there be juxtapositions, how will we strengthen or um highlight one image and then make the next frame softer and like to offset the reality of the other frame prior to it? So you're right. So then there is the edit. So is there objectivity? So so that's kind of that's kind of where I'm at.

Leaving Photojournalism To Rebuild A Life

Matt 49:55

Yeah, I love the whole label talk. I think they were just so uh tethered to labels throughout society in general, but definitely in photography. What's your style? What's your voice? What how do you define yourself? And notice I haven't asked you what type of photography you do. I mean, first of all, people watching and listening to this can go and find out if they don't know, but it's you know, we suddenly we put ourselves in boxes with these labels, and it becomes limiting, but in a bad way, I think. Um certainly stifles kind of expression in in some way. Maybe that is a an evolution we haven't quite realized yet that we should be evolving, whether they're labels or just the complete denunciation of labels, I don't know. But um what so what when when you say you spent you know a long time in the photojournalism world, and then there was a period that you stopped photographing altogether, is that correct? Tell it tell us about I'm very, very interested in this because there's so many photographers, certainly photographers at your level, you think they've been doing all their life, they've practiced it, they've mastered it, they're obsessed with it. But they're, you know, having been a photojournalist for I think 15 years, it's a long time to be getting better and better and better at what you do. So then to stop says something quite profound, I think. Can you elaborate on kind of the reasons why you stopped and what what it was for?

Rich-Joseph 51:29

Yeah, and just to kind of give for those who aren't familiar with my work, I'll just do a quick little timeline. So I kind of started as like a snapshot skate photographer with my friends. Then when I took the first photo class at university, I was just doing street photography and street portraiture, but I didn't know that's what it was. I didn't know about labels or categories or genres of photography. It was all just photography. Then I fell into kind of documentary work for like a quick minute and then got into a photo J program where I was trained as a photojournalist. Um, but while I was being trained as a photojournalist, I was still doing street photography because that was what was fun to me. Just like cruise around, walk the strip, around with the ocean front, take pictures of people. Um then did photojournalism for like full time for like 15 years, 15 to 20 years, kind of kind of slowed down towards the last five years. Um then um went into communications and marketing, which is where I am now. But from that very beginning of snapping photos of um just my friend skating till present day, I was always working on books. Um whether the first one was just like DIY, skate zine, Xerox together, stapled, form of storytelling, super basic. Then it moved into like handmade books with handmade prints and then kept growing and growing until where I am today, where I'm putting out um uh through uh uh an imprint that I launched, Lyra's Corner, putting out my most recent monograph, um, 1804. Um but to answer your question, um so about just over 10 years ago, um my wife and I decided we, you know, my wife grew up in LA and we were living in in the South at the time. And she just was like, you know what? I do not want to raise our kids in the South. And I was like, well, first I was like, we don't live in the South, we live on the East Coast. She goes, No, we live in the South. I'm like, no, you know, and then you know, of course, the truck goes by with the Confederate flag, and then there's a uh Civil War, you know, uh Confederate monument down the street. I'm like, okay, okay, maybe we do live in the South. Um, and so I'm like, okay, cool, I'm down with that. So um we started looking for I like looking for alternatives, like um what can I do um beyond photojournalism to take care of my family? Um and so eventually um I found work in communications and marketing at the university here in Ohio. Um, so I originally came here um to work for the medical school. And when I arrived, you know, it was it was an eight to five job, um, Monday through Friday, weekends off. Um and I was able to begin like make making solid plans um and sticking with them with friends or family. Um, we bought some acreage, so it was get really getting done with homesteading. Um, we started skateboard, getting I was always skating, but I got to skate more with my friends and build a skate community here. Um and as that was happening, um, you know, when I think with any career that you do for 20 years, um your identity is shaped by that. That's how you define who you are, typically, generally speaking. So doing photojournalism for that long length of period and then coming here and not having to do it anymore, um few things happen. You know, I'm like I'm I'm not a photojournalist anymore. Like, oh, well, what do I do? And uh so and and I was like, but you know what, I'm kind of cool with that because I've got all this time for me, my family, my friends, and that wasn't something that I always had before. Um and and so I just paused. I thought to myself, well, you know, your work has been shaped for 20 years, whether it was intent in intentionally or just by an organic nature of being a photographer working as an and earning a living as a photojournalist, it's really been the content and aesthetic and everything about it has been driven by photojournalism. And I said, Well, if you weren't a photojournalist, if you weren't a photographer making a living as a photojournalist, what would your photography be? What would it look like? And so I asked myself those questions and I was like, I don't really know. And I was like, and I'm okay with that.

A Head Tattoo Portrait Changes Everything

Matt 56:21

Now, when it comes to photography, the whole infrastructure of the internet rewards speed. Post more, post faster, be first, be everywhere. The algorithm doesn't care whether you went deep. It cares whether you showed up yesterday. And I guess that's not photography specific. Now, for me, I built my work around a different bet that there are people who would rather go slowly and understand something fully than go fast and understand probably nothing. That depth is not a liability, that the work you make when you take your time is categorically different from the work you make when you're chasing the feed, maybe, or chasing the algorithm. Now, the mood insiders is built on that same bet. It's a private community for photographers and visual artists who are serious about the slow work. We have monthly masterclasses where we actually go deep on craft and thinking. We have a weekly book club, monthly QA's. We have the podcast, of course, but ad-free with bonus content, and we have direct access to me and my team. It's not another newsletter you'll forget about, not a Discord server full of noise. It's a room with a small number of serious people and a very clear and supportive focus. It's just $19 a month. The link is in the show notes, and I really hope I can see you inside.

Rich-Joseph 57:40

And I'm also really grateful that I don't have to prove my work to my worthiness of my work to myself or to clients anymore, editorial clients. It's like I'm not looking to win awards, I'm not looking to jump to the next best paper, the next best staff position. Um I just none that all that went out the window. Like awards didn't matter anymore, accolades, great story. None of it mattered, you know, and it's actually a really great place to be because you're, you know, and you're just like, I could do whatever I want, but what is it that I want? And do I, and then I also asked, do I even, do I even want to be um a photographer anymore? Do I is it, do I need to be? Do I, you know, what does it mean to me? What is its, what is its role in my life? And um so having all these other great things happening, hanging out with family, hang out with friends, skating, homesteading, making a decent living, working eight to five, weekends off. I'm just like living large, right? So um uh but I'm at the same time, I'm honestly still having this conversation with myself, thinking about photography and um what what where I wanted it, what relationship I wanted it to have with me. Yeah. Um, and when I did have that relationship, what did I want my work to be? Um and because I had the freedom to go any direction that I would want to. So um I started getting a little bit of itch again, hadn't answered all those questions, bought a camera, put some film in it, and still to this day didn't shoot a frame in that camera. Um that's so wrong, man. That's so entitled and so wrong. Where is it? Yeah, so it's back there somewhere. Um I'm not gonna get into that. All I'm gonna say is I was entitled and I'm like and I'm guilty of it, and I'm I've never grown up that way, but like I'm a but I share that with people because like I did it, I bought it, I didn't use it. Then life went on. Um then a few months later, I bought another camera, and this one I felt a little more comfortable with, and uh brought it with me, it was in my truck. That was a uh that was a Nikon 850. It's been a while now. Eight, I think that's what it is eight, Nikon 850. I think I got it back there somewhere. Um that's collecting dust. I don't use that one anymore either, but um but um uh I did use it a lot. I did I got my money's worth, trust me. But yeah, I did it. And I only I do pull it out every now and then when I'm every now and then when I'm doing uh out with my my friends skating, and I want to just um have more of a workhorse, like a tank kind of body, then I'll take that out and shoot with that. Um but um got that camera sitting with me in my truck. I'm walking out of my the doctor's office and I'm make connect um eyes with this uh this guy and uh I was like, oh man, damn. I've got my truck. I was about to leave. I was like, you know, those conversations you have with yourself, like you know you should be taking this person's picture, man. And you're just you you're just like thinking of all the reasons why you're not going to.

Matt 1:01:14

Is it the tattoo on his head?

Rich-Joseph 1:01:16

Yeah, the one with the damaged tattoo across his forehead. Um and you know, in a matter of like a few seconds, you know, I went through all that mental jargon and then was like, all right, you just gotta do this, man. Like, you just bought another camera and I can use that one now. Like, what is wrong with you? So I hopped out, introduced myself. He was down. I knew exactly where I wanted to do the portrait. Um, put him aside, snapped some frames, started this little tear started dropping down his cheek. And I was like, oh I was like, oh like it was really cold. I was like, I gotta get this and um shot a few frames of that. And I was like, I think I'm good. And I said thanks, and he took off and I like chased after him because I wanted to get his information and um went back and was like processing the work.

Matt 1:02:07

Why was he crying? Did you I never asked, I didn't want to know.

Rich-Joseph 1:02:10

And part of that reason was like as a photo working as a photojournalist, I would have to go ask him is first name, last name, why is he crying? You know, the whole thing. And I was more interested in just like the experience and I wanted it to be ambiguous, and I didn't want to like I didn't want to have answer questions for anybody. I just wanted um, I want I just wanted to do the work, um, make an image and uh let let the audience interpret it. So and uh and we've we he's reached out to me a few times and and I've sent him some books and things like that. And um, but I still have never to this day asked him. And I don't want to know, and I don't want him to ever tell me.

Matt 1:02:48

I don't, I don't I'm gonna find him. I need to know. I need to know.

Rich-Joseph 1:02:54

So like I hope he's okay. He's solid, he's solid. He's he's doing he's doing well.

Matt 1:03:00

So that was kind of like the next catalyst for you to that moment.

Making Black Diamonds And 1804

Rich-Joseph 1:03:05

Well, yeah, when I saw the the photo, you know, on a bigger monitor, you know, you know, and I and it just popped off the screen, and I was like, man, it's like it's on. So I knew it was back, you know, and I and I I wanted to shoot squares, and the 850 allows you to shoot full frame squares. Um and part of that was like, you know, going back into answering some of those questions. Some of those questions were like, well, I wanted a different format, different aspect ratio. I wanted um being in Appalachia and kind of thinking more about the light here, but also thinking about um work that had been previously done in the region, where and also work that I've previously done as a photojournalist being like very rambrant, you know, lit, like in a Rembrandt lighting and super moody. And I just didn't want to do that. Um I didn't want the light to sway the audience one way or the other. I guess I took more of kind of like a vernacular approach or aesthetic. I mean, but instead of like, you know, now new topographic uh movement, like um was just looking at the landscape and photographing that in a vernacular way. I was trying to approach people in that same concept or mindset and treat it in that same um theoretic theory, theory and approach. And so that I so I wanted to see if that concept would work in in my project in this in the series. And um, so I was applying all these different playing with all these different ideas and approaches and decent, you know, images that were not saturated in color, that weren't using Rembrandt lighting, that weren't using moody light to sway you, um using a different aspect ratio, um moving more towards portraiture and away from the capturing the decisive moment. Um everything that was that was a common practice as a photojournalist was like put on the back burner, and I wanted to explore everything that I didn't always get to do just as a as a photographer. Um and so that's kind of where that whole year allowed me to kind of uh was very holistic and allowed me to um pursue the type of photography I'm doing now.

Matt 1:05:24

So let's that photo um wonderful photo, and I'm I love the story, the kind of the seminal moment about you you taking it. That then went into Black Diamonds, is that correct?

Rich-Joseph 1:05:36

Yes, yes.

Matt 1:05:37

Tell us about Black Diamonds and and we can't we don't really have time to really kind of dive into all three of your books, but I want to hear about Black Diamonds and then 1804 and and the publishing house.

Rich-Joseph 1:05:48

Um so Black Diamonds, you know, like I said, we've heard the beginning of that story, and then um as we mentioned earlier, you know, we really I just really um ended up going out through my community and This region was referred to as the Little Cities of Black Diamonds because it was a very prominent area for uh coal mining back in the late 1800s to early 1900s and a little bit beyond that. So extraction of the land was a big thing here. Um and so not only was I looking at, you know, politically how the region was the region really responsible from our, you know, being as being racist and prejud prejudice and creating this new political movement. Who are my neighbors? Got to spend time with people, really explore the region, explore the history of the coal mining communities, um and kind of see what the legacy was ha what was happening today within these uh regions, these coal min former coal mining boomtowns. And being very always having interest having had interest in local history everywhere I've moved, like that was another aspect that I brought into that book. Um again, as I mentioned, it was like very exploratory. It was like a lot of fun to just um go out and uh experience this new community, both from making images. It was exploratory and meeting these people, but it was also uh very internally an exploratory experience for myself from a photography perspective and just developing my craft and developing um narrative visual storytelling with myself. Um so that was the first, like I said, I'd always been making books, but that was the first book that I actually pursued getting published by um a legitimate publisher. In that case, it was Fall Line Press out of Atlanta. Um then I went on to do Little Cities and then moved in, and then um having done those two books, um I felt like the amount of work that goes into making books, um and if that's maybe this is two things. Like one, the amount of work going into making books, but then also being from a skate background where we were always like, if they don't, if you don't have the ramp, or you don't have like the pool, or if you don't have what it is that you want to skate and you've never done it, like we're just gonna figure it out and like make a pool, build a ramp, whatever, whatever it is we want, we're just gonna make it happen. We're gonna make the scene happen and craft it and um create the opportunity for ourselves and not wait for other people to do it for us. So with those things in mind, or that kind of philosophy in mind, um when I came to do 1804, which focuses on the town of Athens, city of Athens, which is kind of a look at a modern iteration of a company town where the economy is so tied with um tied into uh the the local university that without the university, you essentially would be very much like the the communities you see in eight in in black diamonds. Um myself included, like you know, I'm my life um or my living, my what is funded through the university. Um and that's why I'm here. Uh but when COVID hit, people started losing their jobs, myself included. My close some friends started losing jobs, small businesses started closing. So that's when it kind of reinforced the concept that I already thought, like, you know, hey, we this is very much a company town as well. If you're not here in the university, you're you're you're struggling and um to make like a a sustainable living. Um but at the same time I also was looking at you know how how this how the youth culture and socioeconomic statuses and Appalachian culture all kind of created this interesting dichotomy of a community, um, which is a really beautiful thing on um with that where good and bad kind of intersect and grow and um so I went into making 1804 and just decided that with the other two books, I felt like I had to put so much effort into the not only making them, helping with the edit, helping with the marketing, helping with being a you know, doing a lot of the publicity and and everything that goes into, and this is not just unique to me. I mean, everybody that puts a book out has to some degree do quite a bit of legwork. Um not just the shooting, there's like the whole business and marketing end of it that nobody really talks about. Um and so I thought, well, there's no imprints based out of Appalachia, and there's no imprints that I could find, I should say. I don't want to say there's none, because they're probably somebody might be saying the same thing about Appalachia now, but don't know about uh Liar's Corner, the imprint that I launched. Um I you know, so I was like, there's not, there's not a the book, you know, an imprint based in Appalachia, there's not an imprint owned um or operated by an indigenous person. I was like, and it's like 20, you know, 25, 2026, 2020, 2024, whenever 2024 is when I started getting it together. I'm like, why that why is that the case? Like that's and then I look at my bookshelf, and there's just like most of the imprints are owned by the same demographic, and even a lot of the photographers are the same demographic. And I just was like, man, I was like, can't have history, visual history just contained by one dominant community of people or economic class. So I was like, well, I'm gonna just give it a go. I'm gonna try. It is what it is, it works, cool. And if it doesn't work, that's okay too. I'm gonna, but I gotta give it a go and see what happens. And so I put out 1804 and Lion's Corner, and and um, we're just gonna wing it, man.

Launching Liars Corner Press

Matt 1:11:44

I love it. The whole skateboarding mentality of just kind of just making it happen. Just the world is your oyster. Create it if you haven't got it.

Rich-Joseph 1:11:53

100%, man. That goes with everything. It doesn't have to just be books.

Matt 1:11:58

Let's let's talk about books um before we start to wrap up because the photo book industry is is extremely uh niche, but it's almost kind of elitist in a way. And you just touched upon part of that. But so what do you think needs to change with the photo book sector of the or the photo book industry?

Rich-Joseph 1:12:17

I don't know, man. I was just talking to another photographer the other day. Um, he just launched his his own label as well. And and uh we were talking about um different uh like you know, are you gonna do this book show or you're gonna do this book fair or that book fair? And I was like, man. I'm not trying to diss anybody or or call anybody out, but like I told him, and you know, I just I've always kind of tried to I'm reluctant to be a part of the whole industry. And it's nothing against anybody, it's really my own battle with myself because coming up skating again is and and like skateboarding was my passion, still is, but it was my passion as I was coming up, and I, you know, was picking up sponsors and I was traveling and entering contests and winning contests and getting acknowledgement and getting some pictures in the in the you know skate zines and stuff. And and then one day it just felt so diluted and and like I wasn't doing it for the right reasons anymore, and I was discouraged by the industry and just and just it left a really bad taste in my mouth. So I walked away from skateboarding for I like I I remember the contest, it was like the last contest I was in. I cut my run short, I just picked up my board and waved my hand like I was done, and I walked away, and then I quit all my sponsors and I just didn't skate anymore. I skated a little bit, but like not the way I was before, and I just moved on. And that was like kind of at the same time that I was having my the you know, knowing my my child was gonna be born, and and so there was a lot going on mentally, but I was just done. I didn't feel right anymore. And so a big part of me is reluctant, like I was trying to share with the the the this the guy I was talking to on the phone, you know, it's just like man, I just don't want but like photography or the art of making books to become tainted the way skateboarding was for me. And I'm I'm afraid to dive into the pit and go to you know, go to these, be part of that whole system of and there's nothing wrong, like again, like I want to iterate, like I don't know that there's anything wrong with it because I don't go to these things.

Matt 1:14:31

I don't I just feel like I know I know what you're trying to say, and sorry to interrupt, but I think it's important that we we establish what the issue is because I think that the photo book, uh I let's just say the book making and the publishing kind of industry around photography, that I don't I feel like that it's it is systemic and there's some issues there, but the responsibility has to be on um on the publishers themselves and the people behind the publishers to choose the artists and the books that are more diverse, that maybe less mainstream, that are able to be given voices where and I feel like the smaller independent publishing houses are really trying to do that. So I see some really positive steps. So there's it's it's always this balance because you feel we all want the photo book industry to be bigger, and we all want more people to use photo books and buy photo books. I mean, this really is the essence of the art and the true enjoyment of it. But you know, you when you kind of try to expand and grow an industry, there's always comes with commercialization, dilution, um, a race to the bottom, all uh, you know, a lot of the time. Speaking to just kind of a common, homogeneous ground that no one really wants to be a part of anymore. And it can quickly devolve into something that's just a commercial machine. So there's always like this balance of commercial success. I mean, you started your public, you know, the imprint and publishing house for a specific reason. Now, what are you going to do with it? Right. How are you, how are we going to promote those types of causes that are behind a publisher, not necessarily the biggest system in itself. So I think there's there's a there's nuances, of course, and there's responsibilities on both sides of the fence. But I think we have to take individual, well, I say we, I'm not a publisher, but having spoken to many of these publishers, and they're they're again there's commercial pressures, but a lot of them are trying to find the the lesser-known artists, the more unique artists, the more the people that are able to offer more diverse and interesting, unique perspectives through their art, whether it's the medium itself and the way the book is made and the texture, etc., or it's the artwork itself. I do see that, yet I understand completely what you're saying and agree with it wholeheartedly. Just don't know what the solution is. I mean, I'm I'm sorry to kind of take over that, but I I I think I think those I think it's a it's a complicated um area. But if we look at the whole, what's the goal that we want to contribute to, right, with photo books? And I think the main goal is just to get it in more people's hands, get photo books in more people's hands. And yeah, you're gonna get the those mainstream and those kind of historically warped or um tunnel-visioned publishers and books that are gonna keep on coming. But I have seen just in the last few years, let alone the last five to ten, a lot more independent publishers, more a lot more self-publishing has, which is that's gotta be a good thing, right? I think so.

Rich-Joseph 1:17:59

Yeah, I think for sure for sure. I think from for Elias Corn, the niche I was trying to reach is um looking at marginalized and underrepresented communities and artists. Um and just the goal is not necessarily, at least the short-term goal isn't necessarily to build this brand that's going to be even a smaller, well-received uh imprint, like I would say uh trespasser or deadbeat, um, because they're doing wonderful things. Um but ideally, I I think it would be interesting to just provide more of a uh of a mentorship and a avenue or a channel where um you don't I don't need you to come in and be um a photographer at a certain specific level. Obviously, there has to be some degree of of excellence in what you're doing, but um ideally you're emerging and I'm fine, you know, I'm able to find you a home to put these this work body of work into and teach you the knowledge that I have, which still have a lot more to learn myself, but certainly enough to help you get a book into the world. Hopefully that book that you put out will help catapult your career or just build your career that much more until you're at a point where potentially, yeah, you could be picked up by a much larger, more respectable, or um an imprint that has a much larger reach than something I have that I have the capabilities to do. Um because we like we all need some love, man. We need like not everyone's gonna come rolling out in the gate, like ready to be picked up by, you know, even an independent publisher that's on the level of trespasser or deadbeat, or um, you know, Mac was doing really great stuff for quite a while, but unfortunately they've they no, I won't say unfortunately, but they have turned a different down a different road, it seems like, and and they're focusing a lot on A24 and kind of that content, and that's fine. That's their thing. I, you know, and a little sad because I really did like the the artists that they were supporting for quite a while. I think Void's doing some really, really wonderful work lately. Um, been super, super hyped on a lot of stuff they're doing. Um yeah, yeah. So I'm just, you know, and so I'm not I'm not anywhere near that level. I'm just hoping I can bring on bring in, you know, people that are looking to kind of do a lot of the DIY themselves and like, and I'm just gonna be straight with artists that I work with and be like, this is what I'm gonna need from you. This is what you should anticipate. Can you bite all of all of this off and chew it and swallow it and like make it happen? Because um this is kind of what's you're gonna need to do. Um and ideally get to the point where I'm helping fund that artist's publication, not asking them to raise like $20,000, $30,000 on their own. So um just like that's a lot for everybody.

Matt 1:20:54

It's there's a big barrier to entry. And and you know, like like we've talked about this, that can be, I wouldn't say a good thing, but it can can I guess weed out maybe the the work that may not be deserving of a book, or you know, I'm talking from my own personal experience, having had it had some impactful reviews and wanting to make a book, but uh, but more importantly, it's a huge barrier. It seems to be like you have to pitch to 200 publishers to even get a chance with a conversation of one of them, and even then you've got it like said, raise all those funds, and then you're saying, What the f is the point of it? Yeah, like what just to just for me to feed my ego and say, Oh, I've got a book. Yeah, maybe there's some career ladder progressions from it, you're not gonna earn any money from it. Um, you might be lucky to get your money back. So then there's like you either you have to go like full in at the deep end or you self-publish. And if you don't know what you're doing, like that's even bigger risk. So I feel like you're you're kind of attacking a niche in the market which is sorely uh needed. So um kudos to you. And um, don't be surprised if you get an email from me next week about this blows up.

Rich-Joseph 1:22:15

Bing bing bing no, but yeah, I mean, you know, I don't, you know, we'll we'll see what happens, man. Like it's uh it's exciting, it's good for you. Yeah, if like I said, if it don't work for me, then at least maybe I planted a seed in the next person's head and they can build off what I kind of try to do, and then it just goes from there. Like, it's all good, man. You know.

Matt 1:22:37

A short note before we close. For a while now, the first thing I've done most mornings before the camera or any other work or before the coffee, before the endless tabs, is sit 10, 20, 30 minutes just watching the noise inside my head do what noise does. It hasn't just made me calmer in the way people imagine, it's made me more honest, more mindful, more compassionate, and more free in more ways than I could even describe. And that honesty and introspective clarity, more than any lens, workshop, or book, is really what changed my photography. The work I make now comes from a quieter place with more clearness and calmness. I notice what I'm reaching for, and I notice when I'm reaching for the wrong thing. The inner critic still talks, still exists. I just don't believe everything he says anymore. The app I've used for most of this is Waking Up by Sam Harris. It's the one tool I've genuinely kept returning to all this time. This is not a paid sponsorship from them. However, I am an affiliate partner, and for good reason, I believe that this app is worth it more than any other. What's kept me there for years is that it's not just one thing, is a guided daily meditation, which is the spine of it for me. But there are also short daily reflections, a daily quote that tends to do its own quiet work in the background, and these little moments, they call it, of awareness you can drop into during the day. Two-minute resets when the head starts running. There's also an entire library of guest series with teachers I'd never have found on my own, and a lot more besides that. It keeps the practice alive instead of letting it calcify into routine. So a link sits in the show notes for a free 30-day trial and 20% discount on their subscriptions. If you want the longer story, though, of how meditation reshapes my work, there's also a piece linked through my Substack page called There's No Self-Development Without Self-Awareness. Anyway, hope you enjoy. Thanks for listening. Thank you so much for talking to me. It's been uh you're certainly a huge inspiration. And uh, I encourage everyone to go and buy your books, check you out. Where can people find you? Um, other than I guess just website. Are you present social media? Tell people where we can.

Rich-Joseph 1:25:05

Yeah, um on Instagram, I'm at I'm at Facoon, F S N Frank, A-C-U-N, and as in Nancy, it's my last name. Websites, same thing, Facoon.com, super easy, or liars corner.press cool.

Matt 1:25:17

We'll we'll we'll list all those in the in the descriptions. And um, yeah, lastly, just to say thank you. Thanks so much for your time and your evening. Um, hopefully we'll speak again. And uh in the meantime, uh take good care and uh look forward to seeing what you might be working on at the moment, which we didn't talk about, but I I know you keep your cards close to your chest. You got some stuff. We'll we'll keep a lookout for it. And uh hopefully we can we can do this again when when the next book or something is out there.

Rich-Joseph 1:25:56

Yeah, we'll get there. I'll get there. But thanks for having me, Matt. I really it was a pleasure speaking with you and and uh I appreciate your time.