Hero or Dick
Welcome to Hero or Dick — the podcast where Kate and KJ dig into the strange, funny, and unforgettable corners of history, pop culture, and everything in between. Each episode, we take on famous (and infamous) figures, events, and ideas, breaking them down with humor, insight, and just enough irreverence to ask the question that matters: hero…or dick?
From legendary icons to the odd stories behind movies, music, and everyday life, we pull the threads that make people and moments extraordinary. Along the way, you’ll get Kate’s infamous Fast Five lists (and KJ forgetting his), personal anecdotes, and plenty of chances to weigh in with your own takes.
Ever wondered if a celebrated artist was secretly a scoundrel? Or if a movie villain actually had a point? We live in those gray areas — the messy, funny, human places where the line between hero and dick isn’t so clear.
Join us bi-weekly for deep dives, playful banter, and the kind of conversations that leave you laughing, thinking, and maybe a little surprised. Whether you’re here for the history, the pop culture, or just to see if Kate finally got her car back, Hero or Dick is your go-to podcast for stories that entertain as much as they reveal.
Write in with your suggestions, stories, or just a friendly hello at heroordick2023@gmail.com.
Subscribe today — because life, like our podcast, is never just black and white.
Thanks!
~ Kate & KJ
Hero or Dick
Hero or Dick - S3., Ep. 18 - Why Late Night Still Matters
The night’s messy and honest—perfect for comedy to tell the truth. From Carson’s cool to Letterman’s edge, Rivers’ rebellion to Conan’s redemption, late-night TV has always tested who gets to speak after midnight. We talk about ego, chaos, politics, and the power of a live moment—when the wrong word can end a career or make history.
Another Hero or Dick? episode—where fame meets fallout and we decide who lands where.
Thanks for tuning in!
~ Kate & KJ
Are we on?
SPEAKER_01:Hello? Hi. Welcome, Kate.
SPEAKER_02:Hi, Kate Jade.
SPEAKER_01:It's kind of weird that we would have technical difficulties.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I can't believe it.
SPEAKER_01:It's fucking crazy.
SPEAKER_02:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and there's probably gonna be noise in the background because we there's no construction next time. You know, I want to know actually, what the fuck was that guy just doing out there? I just noticed. I should go up. He was on on your side on our side, and he was up over there.
SPEAKER_02:Looking at our building.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I love these. No disrespect to the hardworking construction men and women out there, but I can't believe how many.
SPEAKER_02:Smoke all the weed you want to get out of work.
SPEAKER_01:On the fucking job. Pull your head out of your ass. And do the job. People are paying you to do a good job. And when you're in a certain state of mind, perhaps you're not making the best decisions.
SPEAKER_03:Perhaps.
SPEAKER_01:Anyhow, we're broadcasting live from Horse Feather Studio in Alpina.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Michigan.
SPEAKER_02:And it's beautiful out. It's October something. October 8th.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_02:And yesterday it was, I don't know, 70 degrees, day before, 80 something.
SPEAKER_01:Nuts.
SPEAKER_02:So it's great. We like this.
SPEAKER_01:Um, Kate just got back from another trip.
SPEAKER_02:I had a whirlwind trip that I'm gonna tell you about really quick before we talk about our topic. So I went last Thursday morning with my favorite sister-in-law, Jennifer, and her sister, Julie, and we went down to my niece's Harley's. And we first what we did was um Harley works for this great company called Lineage, and they um they're the world's largest operator of temperature-controlled warehouses and a global provider of end-to-end cold chain logistics solutions. And they do this by partnering with food and beverage companies to store, move, and distribute food to those people who need it who don't have it otherwise. So, one of their customers is called Forgotten Harvest, and they have a beautiful warehouse. This was the cleanest warehouse I was ever in in any point of my life. And I've been in some warehouses. It was clean, it was well organized, and we went there and volunteered for a few hours, and we um we crushed cardboard, which was very satisfying. Put it in the big crusher, pull the handle down, wow. That's very satisfying. You end up with the compressed um cardboard, and then after that, we went and packed potatoes, which is not as satisfying, but needs to be done.
SPEAKER_00:What'd you pack them with? We'd pack them in.
SPEAKER_02:We just put them in paper bags for distribution.
SPEAKER_00:Gotcha. Did you bring any home?
SPEAKER_02:I didn't, but they look pretty good. And they have a this uh place, this Forgotten Harvest, also has a farm. So they do a lot of fresh foods, but then they they um have oh just well a warehouse full of donated foods from you know straight from the manufacturers like Nabisco and whoever else. I don't know. I didn't deal with any canned goods, so some people were looking at expiration dates, making sure everything was good on that, and then they were packing boxes. Um, there was a bunch of GM employees there that were in line packing boxes for giveaway. That's cool. Yeah, it was really cool, and they they were so organized and so clean. It was it was a really um, it was really a joy to volunteer there. So we did that for a few hours. Then we went in and had a delicious dinner, and then we went to Pine Knob, and we saw Judas Priest and Alice Cooper. Nice, yes, it was it was more than nice. They both put on a great show. I mean, they're still rocking it out. I did wear earplugs the whole time, most of the time. For Judas Priest, especially, they were loud and proud, and they were really, but they they have a lot of great songs. I was like, oh, I forgot they did that. So good for them. And then Alice came out, and that guy is 77 years old. I think he's 77, puts on a fabulous show. Fabulous. He played old songs and new songs. I didn't know some of the new songs, but um, he played my favorite Alice Cooper song, which is Cold Ethel.
SPEAKER_01:I haven't heard that. Uh you should listen to it. We'll have to.
SPEAKER_02:Uh so it was a wonderful time. They do, because they're right in a um a residential area, really, they have a strict shutdown time of 11 o'clock. So they only play till 11, which is fine. It takes you about an hour to leave there. And then we went back to Harley's, where we spent the night at her beautiful house, and she's a lovely hostess. And then we got up the next morning and I came back to northern Michigan. They dropped me off, literally dropped me off in Cassidy's driveway and left. And then Mike picked me up about 10 minutes later. And Mike and I went to Crystal Mountain to meet Cassidy and Doug and Jenna and her mic. Nice. And we uh we didn't do too much Friday night, and then Saturday. Um uh Cassidy and Doug opted out. Cassidy is still, you know, kind of limping along. But we went down the slide at Crystal Mountain, and that was lots of fun. You get up on the you're on the sled thing, and you have a throttle, you can push forward, you go fast, push back, you break, and you ride the chair limp, chair lift up, and then go down, and then you go down on the slide. It was a blast, it was so much fun. We did it twice. Did you really? Yeah, we did it. We we knew we were gonna go once, we went once, and then we all went again. So that was fun. And then we went to a um a private tour uh that Doug had bought at an auction of Iron Fish Distillery. Oh boy, which is this really cool place just out in the middle of nowhere.
SPEAKER_01:Whiskey and gin.
SPEAKER_02:It it is whiskey gin. We did a bourbon taste.
SPEAKER_01:It's a vodka too, don't they?
SPEAKER_02:Uh they do. They do. They do a little bit of everything. Everything was delicious. Some people thought it was a little more delicious than others. So then we all had to go take a nap.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And that was fine. Then we went out for a lovely dinner and we stayed in this beautiful condo right at Crystal Mountain.
SPEAKER_03:Very cool.
SPEAKER_02:Very nice, very nice. Uh, we had a great time. Yeah. So that's what my whirlwind.
SPEAKER_01:You know how to do it. You know? It was fun. That's awesome. Here, I'm bitching about how it takes me three or four days just to learn how to relax, and you're off hanging out with Alice Cooper and sliding down hills. Oh, God. Shame on me.
SPEAKER_02:But if you work, work, work.
SPEAKER_01:Because you get used to it, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You get used to it. And was it so you had a week off?
SPEAKER_01:Yep. But we Sunday through Wednesday was in the UP um with Jovi. So that was fun.
SPEAKER_02:Looking at schools.
SPEAKER_01:Looking at schools.
SPEAKER_02:And then it's hard when you work though to relax because I think you're always thinking, God, when I get back, I'm gonna have 800 emails.
SPEAKER_00:Oh god, that's yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And you know, there's always that work hanging over your head. I mean, I did do Did you relax?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, I did some work on one of our rental properties. And then I did some work at the cottage and I did some stuff around the house, but I mean I did get a lot of naps in.
SPEAKER_02:All right.
SPEAKER_01:And I watched Did you read no actually? I did writing though.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01:That counts. That's nice. And I watched it. I watched Halloween.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, the monthly Halloween. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That still holds up.
SPEAKER_02:It does. That's Jamie Lake Curtis, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and we're 29-year-old co-stars. You know how those kids actually they are 29. Those aren't kids. I looked it up because I'm like, why in the 70s and 80s do so many of the teenagers look like they're in their late 20s and 30s?
SPEAKER_03:Because they are.
SPEAKER_01:They were. Because uh child labor laws, they could work the shit out of the adults. They can't do that to the kids. Uh Jamie Lee Curtis was 19 at the time. Um, the other ones are 28, 29. God, I want to say 25.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That was a scary effing movie. When it came out, I went to the movie theater, the actual theater, not a drive-in, although that would be scary too.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And terrified.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's got the s long, slow camera angles. It's all suspense. It's not the slasher ship that they have now. Gorgon.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. It's more the anticipation of what's coming. Kind of like that Blair Witch project. Yeah. Never have nothing happens in that movie. Good movie. But the suspense of what might happen.
SPEAKER_01:It was so well done that at the end when the guy's standing in the corner looking at the wall, it seemed like it was frightening as hell. And it's it's not. But it was not.
SPEAKER_02:When you if you look at it with different eyes.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So this is a good month because I like watching those.
SPEAKER_02:Well, there's plenty to choose from.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:How about what's your other favorite one?
SPEAKER_01:Um, not real scary, but I like the birds. You know, it's probably terrifying for its time.
SPEAKER_02:And um, you know, I don't think I would classify that as a how as a Halloween.
SPEAKER_01:No, but I watch it this time of year. Um one my daughter loves that I watch is QB Halloween.
SPEAKER_02:Adam Sandler's I am a little ashamed to say I've seen it.
SPEAKER_01:It's it's interesting. Um, but I mean then you got Adam Sandler funny. Nightmare on Elm Street, The Shining. That's not a Halloween movie, but anything scary. I like torturing myself. So they have nightmares, can't sleep.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I don't like the ones of like uh, you know, isn't it scream where he's in the house?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I like scream.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That's spooky.
SPEAKER_02:That's he's in the house.
SPEAKER_01:And you don't know who it is. You think it's and it turns out, well, like you want to rune if it's a little bit.
SPEAKER_02:Don't twist it.
SPEAKER_01:Drew Barrymore's in it for like five minutes. Isn't that crazy? She does good. She does. What else? Nightmare on Elm Street, it's okay. I don't really like the Texas Chainsaw Mask group.
SPEAKER_02:No, that's just a little Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Friday the 13th is okay. But don't mean to offend anybody.
SPEAKER_02:There's so many of them too. Now there's literally like on number 20 or whatever.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Fright night. Remember the original Fright Night? I don't remember that.
SPEAKER_00:Wow.
SPEAKER_02:No. But there's lots of they're all on streaming services this month for sure. So get your full of those. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:But we're not talking about movies. Really, we're talking about um, it's kind of a timely relative.
SPEAKER_02:It's when we picked it. Yeah, we picked uh the topic this week is late-night talk show.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Shows and hosts, but late night talk shows.
SPEAKER_01:Sure.
SPEAKER_02:And so when we chose it, was when Jimmy Kimwell got let's say laid off.
SPEAKER_01:Shame on him.
SPEAKER_02:For voicing his opinion.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I think that's what you're supposed to do in that job.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it's pretty much well, as I found out, um, it's really what late night has been since it's been on TV. And it's been on TV ever almost ever since there's been TV. The the pioneer that I learned the most about, um, and was surprised to hear, is Faye Emerson. She is had a talk show host, or she had a talk show from 1949. What? Until 1952. It was 15 minutes show uh um and it was shown on CBS. It was a mix of politics and entertainment.
SPEAKER_00:I never heard of it.
SPEAKER_02:Just like today.
SPEAKER_00:Good job.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So yeah, you don't hear about her. Of course. You don't hear about the men. Yeah. Uh and so then uh Steve Allen was another pioneer. You probably read about him 1954 to 57. He kind of started the modern talk show staples, including the opening monologue, the audience participation, celebrity interviews.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:The musical guest. He was one of the first, right?
SPEAKER_02:And he was on NBC. He was the Tonight Show. And they all kind of have similar names, so it's hard to keep track of them. But uh then after Steve Allen left that show, Jack Parr came on the Tonight Show. He focused more on interviews. Um I don't write the years that he was on there, but he was on there until probably early 60s, because that's when the King of Late Night took over that the Tonight Show, Johnny Carson. Everybody's heard of him. He was on for 30 years. 30 years. He had a partner. Yeah, what was his name?
SPEAKER_01:Ed McMahon. The sweepstakes guy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, Johnny Carson and Ed McMahon.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, he was Mr. Charming.
SPEAKER_02:1962 to 1992. He perfected the opening monologue, the desk desk segment, interviews, music, and he had a lot of um shtick that he did, like a lot of characters. So, but yeah, many funny moments for sure. And he uh, well, we'll talk about that after. Then it in the 80s to the 90s was the late night wars, is what they call that era. Because there was David Letterman who was on late night after Johnny and was famously passed over to succeed Carson. Everybody thought he would. I think even he thought he would. He didn't, and he didn't. They chose who'd they choose.
SPEAKER_01:Wasn't it that one guy, the car guy?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Jay Leno. I don't know. Jay Leno I've never really thought he was very funny. No, he did some good interviews for sure, but you know. So um that so because he got passed over, David Letterman went to CBS and hosted the late show, went head to head with Jay Leno.
SPEAKER_01:He sure did.
SPEAKER_02:He did.
SPEAKER_01:I liked Letterman.
SPEAKER_02:I did too. Um, if I was gonna choose between the two of them, I always watched Letterman.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, me too.
SPEAKER_02:He just said quirkier.
SPEAKER_01:You know, he's not so well he made you uncomfortable at times, which was kind of cool.
SPEAKER_02:Uh yeah, he pushed it. I like the way he pushed the but I like their their skits and they were just kind of the top ten list? Oh my god, the top ten list. Come on.
SPEAKER_01:Musical guests.
SPEAKER_02:Lots of cutting edge.
SPEAKER_01:I like that he was good friends with my good friend Eddie Vedder.
SPEAKER_02:He was. He played on his last show. Yep. Do you know what song he played? Just say no.
SPEAKER_01:I do. Hold on. I can see Better Man.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, took me a minute.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I didn't look that up either, folks. I was sitting here thinking and thinking, thinking.
SPEAKER_02:I saw that.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, dang.
SPEAKER_02:So uh going back to Johnny Carson, who when he was gone, he would have guest hosts, and one of his guests so host, frequent guest hosts, was Joan Rivers. And then she was the first female to get a late show in 1986.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but didn't he, you know, well, I guess I love digging people. Yeah, he ended up blacklisting her. Yeah, he did um after she started her uh own show.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, Johnny was Which come on, Johnny. He was a little uh he was charming on screen, but he was a booze bag. Serially unfaithful, begging people left and right. Yep. So um but he started in Nebraska Radio.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, he was from Nebraska, moved into some TV comedy and then hosted Who Do You Trust?
SPEAKER_01:And then he inherited The Tonight Show.
SPEAKER_02:And there he stayed. And he was great at it.
SPEAKER_01:Great at what he did.
SPEAKER_02:Great at sitting behind the desk interviewing people, smoking cigarettes, smoking away.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_02:Those were the days he was smoking weed? No. Oh, that's right, he wasn't. No, not supposed to be. I think he thought hippies did that. So then the uh also in the 80s uh slash 90s, 89 to 94 was Arsenio Hall. Yes. We be having a ball. Yeah. That was his tagline.
SPEAKER_01:But he got uh woo woo derailed because he booked Lewis Varrakott.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, really?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Oh. But did he make it on? Did they interview him?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they had him on there. He booked him, and then the advertisers were like, see ya.
SPEAKER_02:And he was in syndication too, so he was not on, you know, one of the big three.
SPEAKER_01:Right. What happened? Is he still around?
SPEAKER_02:He hasn't called me lately.
SPEAKER_01:No. Uh who has called you?
SPEAKER_02:Uh Conan O'Brien.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, Conan.
SPEAKER_02:Conan. I just heard him on the way here. Uh because I have his channel on Sirius.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I thought he was on your voicemail. No, he wasn't. Wasn't weren't we trying to get him on this show?
SPEAKER_02:I would love to have him on the show. Conan, call us.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Or email us.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, at uh what's our email? Hero or dick 2024 33. Son of a I knew it was old.
SPEAKER_02:It is. It's three seasons, three years old.
SPEAKER_01:Hero or dick 2023 at gmail.com. Because why pay for an email address, right? I like that we have a oh yeah. You know, we're down-to-earth people.
SPEAKER_02:We don't have an Instagram or anything.
SPEAKER_01:We lost all our staff.
SPEAKER_02:No.
unknown:No.
SPEAKER_01:All right.
SPEAKER_02:So Conan took over David Letterman's late night in 1993, which was on after the tonight show, remember it? So that was late. That was like started at 1230. Um, it wasn't the days of VCR though, so you could tape up. But he his quirky sense of humor earned him a cult following.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:And he did inherit the tonight show from Leno briefly. Then he lost it after a brief controversial run. Namely, you know, they really screwed him over. So Jay Leno's like, oh, okay, I'll give you the tonight show, but hey, I'm gonna have my own show at 10 o'clock. That's not fair to no. And so Conan, who was in New York, moved all his staff, his family, everybody out to New York, and then lost his job. And I heard him interviewed after or just talking about it and saying, you know, we we get on here and we're ready to go and we did it, and then they're like, oh yeah, you're done. It wasn't even a year, I think.
SPEAKER_04:No.
SPEAKER_02:So then he moved to um where did he go? Is it Fox? NBC did pay Conan 45 million to leave.
SPEAKER_01:That's pretty good departure. Yeah. Why can't people pay us to leave?
SPEAKER_02:Oh well, I'll leave right now if somebody gives me a buck.
SPEAKER_01:A buck? You can't leave for a buck. He wrote for Saturday Night Live. He did. And The Simpsons. Your favorite show.
SPEAKER_02:Which I have to say, I thank you, Cassidy, for the Halloween Simpsons advent calendar. It's quite delightful. Is it? Every day there's a new look.
SPEAKER_01:You love those calendars.
SPEAKER_02:I am the queen of the advent calendars. If you want an advent calendar, call me.
SPEAKER_01:Or a towel. But I forgot to mention.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, there's a towel.
SPEAKER_01:Because I like to interrupt the flow of things. That Kate gave me a gift from her road trip, and it's a pickle towel. It's a towel with all these pickles on it. Very sweet.
SPEAKER_02:Commemorating our pickle episode.
SPEAKER_01:It's a pickle episode, which people should check out. I should keep a running tally of the case.
SPEAKER_02:That was a good episode because people were passionate about pickles.
SPEAKER_01:Cows and pickles, apparently. Cow, the cow one picked ass. Anyway, sorry.
SPEAKER_02:Anywho. So MBC paid him off.
SPEAKER_01:$45 million to leave.
SPEAKER_02:$45 million, which he kept$30 million, and he gave the rest to his staff.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, he's an awesome guy.
SPEAKER_02:Cool guy.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Paid his staff because they weren't going to get paid.
SPEAKER_02:Because they weren't.
SPEAKER_01:He's one of the few of these people posts that really never had a scandal. I mean, he's just a no, he's just a dude.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:He's a hero to me already.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, Conan, you're a hero. Um, I was gonna say something else about Coco.
SPEAKER_01:Coco, Team Coco.
SPEAKER_02:Team Coco.
SPEAKER_01:His podcast gets asked.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it does. It is a very good podcast. Um when he he did start another show, and I can't remember what channel it was on. It was on something. And um I I did hear him speak of that recently too, because they're like, you know, you get ready to do this show. I think this was the late night show, and you you gear up to it, and he said, We did it, we we you know threw ourselves into it, the writers, the everybody, you know, and we did this show and we had the party, and then they're uh, okay, we gotta do it tomorrow, too. Oh fuck.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So so currently these are the the late night shows. The tonight show with Jimmy Fallon, and then after that is the late show with Seth Myers, who is a genius. Um, then on ABC is Jimmy Kimmel Live, CBS until May has still has the late show, and it's got Stephen Colbert. And then on Comedy Central is uh The Daily Show with Jon Stewart, who should be president. And uh last week tonight is John Oliver. I think he's on HBO. Are all those guys still on the air? Yeah, these are current.
SPEAKER_01:I know, but well, Kimmel wasn't for a little bit.
SPEAKER_02:Didn't Colbert get Colbert is canceled, but he's on until May.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:His show will end in May, sadly. Because of budget is what they told him. It's probably politics, but I'm not gonna go into that. So I love it.
SPEAKER_01:You get right past it. I love it.
SPEAKER_02:So my extreme late night show would have the antics of Jimmy Kimmel, because I love them. They go on the street and ask people, you know, what I think the other night they had three people and they had Jimmy uh pick which one was not high. So I like their antics. I like um the monologue. I like Stephen Colbert's monologue, but I I really like Jon Stewart's monologue. I think it's always smart and funny and makes you think. I I I like that. Um I like Stephen Colbert's band also, but I love Jimmy Fallon's band because I love Yukist Love. He's the leader of that band. He is the best. There, but their whole band is great. What about Paul Schaefer? He wasn't, I'm just going by current. I know. But I love Paul Schaefer. Yeah, he's Canadian. Come on.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, he's an interesting little fella.
SPEAKER_02:And he always picked a song, and I don't I don't recognize if people still do this, bands still do this. You know, if if Kim is coming out, he picks a song specially for you, you know. I I can't think of a song specially for you right now, but if you go back and look at uh reruns of it, you know, when that's cool that he he really was thoughtful about it. So I do like Stephen Colbert's quiz, too, that he gives everybody. I think that's kind of interesting. So those are all the current ones. I'm gonna tell you now the ones that have failed, and there's many.
SPEAKER_01:Let it rip, man.
SPEAKER_02:All right, 93 Shiny Chase.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, he tanked.
SPEAKER_02:He was one of our tanked.
SPEAKER_01:We had a show about him.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Uh Alec Baldwin 2018. Uh didn't work. Keenan Ivory Wayne's. Didn't work.
SPEAKER_01:No.
SPEAKER_02:Uh Dennis Miller.
SPEAKER_01:He lasted for a little while, didn't he?
SPEAKER_02:Not long.
SPEAKER_01:He's kind of got a shtick.
SPEAKER_02:He d he does. And it was his it was in '92, so it was his SNL era. Um yeah. How about the magic hour with Magic Johnson? Didn't work. I don't remember that one. You know, you got you got something else he's good at, so that's good.
SPEAKER_00:So the b-ball.
SPEAKER_02:Um a little late with Lily Sign. I don't know that one.
SPEAKER_00:Nope.
SPEAKER_02:How about Sharon Osborne? She had one in 2003.
SPEAKER_01:That must have been around the time they were doing the other show, too. The husband.
SPEAKER_02:I think she just had too much going on.
SPEAKER_01:Sure.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Here, here's one I'm thankfully missed. 1989 Pat Seijack show.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, come on. That sounds like a winner.
SPEAKER_02:He didn't have Anna.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that's true. She makes that guy.
SPEAKER_02:She made that guy. She did. 2004, John McEnroe tried it out. Didn't work for him. This one surprised me. 2006 to 7, Megan Malale. Funny lady. Didn't work. Didn't work out for her. And then there's um there's another one that I have never seen and probably never will. It is, it said that there it gets the highest ratings of them all. It's a very conservative view. Gutfield. Gutfield? It's on Fox. But it's on at 10, not 11:30 or 11:35. So I don't really count it. Uh so and now we have to talk about a little bit about the politics of late night. Because politics has always been a staple of late night. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And hosts uh even that Faye Emerson, she regularly interviewed political and intellectual figures, along with, you know, entertainment people too. Johnny Carson kind of avoided the political taking a political stance, like that's so obvious of people today, but he always gave um humor about the situations. Like when you're going through Watergate, you can't just let that slide. I mean, that affected everything, everyone in the country for a long time, for a couple of years. So um one of his uh democracy means that anyone can grow up to be president, and anyone who doesn't grow up can be vice president. He was slamming Dan Quayle, but he never came out and set up.
SPEAKER_00:Sure.
SPEAKER_02:Um the common 80s and 90s jokes were about Tip O'Neill and Ted Kennedy drinking, Ron Reagan being old, Dan Quayle being dumb. Uh and some say he couldn't have a show today. I don't know. You can't. That's a that's a guesstimate, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I don't know. That's pretty risky stuff.
SPEAKER_02:Um he had such a then he could have a broad audience. I mean, there wasn't, you know, 800 other things to watch or see or do or be online or whatever. You know, people just watched him at 1130.
SPEAKER_01:That's what you did. Yeah, now you don't have to stay up until 11, 11.30. You can tape stuff.
SPEAKER_02:You get it you can get it all day long, whether you want or not.
SPEAKER_01:YouTube podcasts, you name it, it's there.
SPEAKER_02:Now it's more a progressive activist approach, no matter either side. No matter what side or no side you're taking, that's what it seems to be. Um, but don't forget about this show, which I don't know if you would categorize it as a late night. I guess it was on late night in 93 and on was uh politically incorrect. Oh, indeed. Yeah, which was a great show, I thought. And they got canceled because they said something you know somebody thought was inappropriate. And you know who they were replaced with, though? Jimmy Kimmel. So jokes on you.
SPEAKER_01:Just depends who's funding the shows, the advertisers and who they're backing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And the daily show, fake news, Colbert Report. I mean, Colbert Report was totally just a satire of somebody else, but people thought it was real too. Yeah. And John Stewart, as you know, controversial as he is, um, he advocates for the James Sudd uh Sud Droga, nine eleven Health and Compensation Act for all the workers who were at who cleaned up nine eleven, like or died during. So he he has lebbed Congress for for the survivors and the families. I did not know that. Yeah. Like he is Big time into that. Yeah. So say what you will about him. He does good too. Um, and I also Jack Parr. He had a scandal.
SPEAKER_01:What was it?
SPEAKER_02:His scandal was he walked out of a show out of the show for a month because the censors wouldn't let him mention. He had a joke about uh WC water closet and can't even toilet. Well, this is in the 50s. It's terrible. Yeah, and the censor was like, no, you can't say that. How dare you? But it's a joke. Yeah. And they just said no. So he was on air live, mind you, and he said, I'll be leaving the tonight's show. There must be a better way to uh make a living than this. And the announcer Hugh Downs had to finish the show.
SPEAKER_01:No kidding.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And so a month passes, and he finds out, you know, he bantered, you know, I'm sure he negotiated whatever, and he came back on. And um it it was all over the newspapers. Every paper had an article about his obscene joke about a toilet.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, the corporate decision was to, they, you know, didn't want to say it, but he thought that was wrong. So he negotiated, though, and he went back on air. And when he came on, he said, Remember, I told you there must be a better way to make a living than this. Well, it turns out there's not.
SPEAKER_01:Uh that's a good recovery, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yes. So he came back.
SPEAKER_01:Um, Jimmy Fallon.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You like him.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, he's okay.
SPEAKER_01:Accused of drinking on the job.
SPEAKER_02:Jimmy Fallon.
SPEAKER_01:Toxic work environment.
SPEAKER_02:I heard that. And they say that he lacks interviewing chops because you know he's just kind of like he does, because he's he's kind of spazzy, you know. He does good, uh like plays games and whatever, and that part is really good, but I've never seen a great interview by him.
SPEAKER_01:What about the time he ruffled Trump's hair?
SPEAKER_02:Okay, that was great. Um also he's so spazzy that he um kind of laughs after everything. Everything is hilarious, and it's like to talk to these people.
SPEAKER_01:He's just a nervous guy, maybe. That's why he has to drink. He's got anxiety. Trust me. Um, his net worth is$60 million, by the way.
SPEAKER_02:Good job, Jimmy.
SPEAKER_01:You ever hear of David Letterman?
SPEAKER_02:I heard of him.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, we've been talking about him. Did we do a show about him?
SPEAKER_02:I think so.
SPEAKER_01:I think we have.
SPEAKER_02:I love his beard. I love bearded David Letterman.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, pretty bad. Hey, what's that show he has now on Netflix or had?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah, and he interviews.
SPEAKER_01:Oh he spends like a lot of time with people.
SPEAKER_02:He spends like a whole hour or more with people prominent people, and I can't think of the name of it.
SPEAKER_01:That was pretty good. But he uh the you know, he's like the inner room, he's gonna be the guy with the sharpest wit. You know what I mean? Brilliant. I love his dry humor. Moody, cruel. Uh 2009, he admitted to multiple affairs with staff and an extortion attempt.
SPEAKER_02:Right. But also, he was in a a long-term relationship, but they were not married. Um, and somebody, I think one of the people he was messing around with, her boyfriend said, I'm gonna blackmail you. And he said, I'm gonna go on T on TV and say and admit to everything. And people thought it was a joke at first. I can't remember watching it, and they're like, What's going on? That nervous laugh. And then he's like, No, this is real. Someone's trying to blackmail me, and I just want to say I've already, you know, worked it out. I think he went on to marry that woman too.
SPEAKER_01:And I think that he was he was a dick, but I also think he admitted that and that he grew a lot and it's changed a lot. And I think age is part of that. And um he has had a son, too.
SPEAKER_02:And he said that changed his whole perspective.
SPEAKER_01:That'll do it to you. Yeah. Well, sometimes people sometimes. Um I know you always want to know this. His net worth 400 million.
SPEAKER_02:400 million. Living up in the hills of Montana.
SPEAKER_01:And and um your friend Johnny, I already capped on him, I know. Booze bag slut.
SPEAKER_02:Um which Johnny was that? Cars Carson.
SPEAKER_01:300 million he was worth back in that time.
SPEAKER_02:In that day.
SPEAKER_01:Um I already talked about Arsenio Hall.
unknown:Not worth 20 million. Not now.
SPEAKER_01:No. Um Bill Maher. We didn't talk about him.
SPEAKER_02:Well, he we did talk about politically incorrect.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:What's his show now? Um I watch it.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know, but he annoys me a bit. He's not bad. It's just like he's very self-important. A lot of those guys are.
SPEAKER_02:Um, but yeah, I don't love every single thing about him, but you know, um, 140 million.
SPEAKER_01:Good job, Bill.
SPEAKER_02:Um buy a lot of weed with that.
SPEAKER_01:He smokes a lot of weed on that show. Um, Letterman uh started as a weatherman in Indianapolis.
SPEAKER_02:He did. It was and then he had a morning show too. It was hilarious because I can remember being home from school and watching it.
SPEAKER_01:That's how Carson saw he saw him on that morning show. On the morning show? Um, then you know, your favorite Jay Leno. Um they call him the blue collar comic.
SPEAKER_02:He is probably worth, I'm gonna guess, 500 million.
SPEAKER_01:You know what? I don't think I have his um Oh wait, yeah, I do. You're you're good.
SPEAKER_02:500 million.
SPEAKER_01:450 million.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I again not a big fan. I think I brought him up though a few podcasts ago, how he cares for his wife.
SPEAKER_02:He does. She has Alzheimer's, and he chooses to do it himself. And his wife also did a lot of good for um countries where women have had no rights.
SPEAKER_01:That's definitely countries like that. There is like the United States. Um yeah, he uh he's kind of a love emerate him kind of fella. I do like the fact this whole story about his wife, but that's what you should do anyway, take care of your wife. And then um he's got a great car collection.
SPEAKER_02:He does have an awesome car.
SPEAKER_01:Holy smoke alone.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's a good one. He just that's what he spends his money on.
SPEAKER_01:Did you get your car yet? Weren't you gonna buy a Ferrari?
SPEAKER_02:No, I don't want a Ferrari. Never a Ferrari. I want one like you have.
SPEAKER_01:I'll sell you that one.
SPEAKER_02:Why?
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. I'm always interested in other vehicles. Oh. Um what do I have here? Uh well, we talked about Conan, Harvard, Harvard Lampoon president, and then they did the Saturday Night Live thing, of course, and the Simpsons. Jimmy Fallon. He was on SNL. Um, his movie career, not so good.
SPEAKER_02:No, um movie with Queen of Let's find where Taxi Driver. Oh my god, they did. I can't remember the time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. But um you were incredibly prepared, so you made my work easy here.
SPEAKER_02:So you're saying that all the big hitters they make a lot of money.
SPEAKER_01:They do.
SPEAKER_02:They do.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. There were some um, I don't know, I had some side stuff, like awful interviews.
SPEAKER_02:What's the awful interview?
SPEAKER_01:Well, like um some interviews that didn't go as planned for certain hosts, certain late night shows. The one that I like to talk about is the Joaquin Phoenix one where he was on Letterman.
SPEAKER_02:That was weird.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and it was like he was turning into a rapper, and so he didn't say anything. And it kind of pissed Dave Letterman off, and it turned out it was a hoax, but super weird. Uh Madonna, when she was on Letterman in 1994, she dropped the F bomb 14 times and it pissed Dave off. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um how about Drew Merrymore when she was up there and did the old flashes at him. And they just thought, oh, she was on Stephen Colbert, and she because after he was canceled, and she wore she's 50 now, and she had some shirt on, and she uh like ripped it open and it said, I love Stephen Colbert, or something like that.
SPEAKER_01:She's she's something we should do a show on her. I mean, it started when she was a kid. Oh my god, she was doing drugs and hanging in plugs when she was nine or ten.
SPEAKER_02:It's like sober since she's 12.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But yeah, she was funny on that show, and she has her own talk show, but it's not late night, so we won't talk about it.
SPEAKER_01:Wait, she has a talk show?
SPEAKER_02:She does during the day, or she did. I don't know if she still does.
SPEAKER_01:I think so. Um, you already covered Joan Rivers. Chelsea Handler uh had Chelsea lately.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah, Chelsea.
SPEAKER_01:From 2007 to 2014, it was on E. Wow. Um, it was their biggest hit show.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I bet.
SPEAKER_01:Uh Samantha B, Full Frontal. Yeah, yeah. 2016 to 2022. She was missed political satire. She's pretty sharp. And then you talked about Lily, which I forgot about. Um but yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so um when we chose this as our topic, Jimmy Kimmel had been not canceled, but taught a lesson. Uh laid off. I don't know what you would say. And then they decided that he could come back on, and he never apologized or anything for what he said. And if you go back and listen to what he said, he didn't say anything disparaging. He actually didn't say anything but good. Um, hey, let's all try to, you know, get along. And but he did say something against the current administration and they didn't like that, and that's why it happened, I'm sure. But on um But here's the thing with that.
SPEAKER_01:Now uh they they laid him off or gave him a break, but here's the thing. Had people not started canceling their subscriptions to things and pissing and moaning, other stars stepping up and people saying, Fuck that. Guess what? They would have let them go.
SPEAKER_02:They would have.
SPEAKER_01:Because they were just gauging it to see how they would hand, you know, are we gonna be okay?
SPEAKER_02:And thankfully people did step up and said, Well, you're not gonna do that. Right. You're not gonna let him just say his speak his mind. And he And it it wasn't he didn't he didn't slam anyone except maybe one person.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but the amount of slamming that him and Jon Stewart and other folks do, which is often in a comedic tone, is nothing compared to the shit that some of these people say that is just downright evil and shameful. It shouldn't even be said.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, it's a free country, say what you want, but it's yeah, it's the um First Amendment.
SPEAKER_02:How do you pull the very first amendment?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, how do you pull um someone who's doing their job and saying some things, but then pour millions into the pockets of someone that's spouting hateful things.
SPEAKER_02:Right. And just because you don't agree with what somebody's saying doesn't mean you get to shut them down. No matter how high up in the government you are or low in the government. You know, it is our First Amendment to have freedom of speech.
SPEAKER_01:And it's a scary time, right?
SPEAKER_02:It is because there people are testing it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, uh, we should be able to test it, but they shouldn't be trying to shut everybody up. The piece the people trying to shut the people up are the ones that maybe should think about shutting up because they're spewing bullshit.
SPEAKER_02:It is, that's true. Fucking pisses me off. We don't we try not to talk power. Sorry, but it's true, and you how can you not talk about it? Yeah, I mean, it's happening everywhere. We want, you know, we want to speak our minds uh just like everybody would talk about it.
SPEAKER_01:That's healthy, it should be healthy discourse.
SPEAKER_02:So what if you don't agree with somebody? There is nobody on the face of the earth that you or me or anybody is going to agree with 100%. No, no, you know, it there's just no way, and that's what makes us diverse and interesting and human.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you should be able to sit down with somebody that you totally don't like, can't agree with, and talk through things. Yeah, it might get testy, it might get frustrated, but you should be able to equally both talk about your sides and why you feel that way. Yes, and you should be able to explain why you feel that way too, because I think a lot of people can't. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:Like they just know like Well, and so let's take this away from it too. When somebody who I totally disagree with explains something to me, I'll try to listen and understand.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Because I think that's more than half the battle, you know. The only way I'm gonna change your mind, then it it doesn't matter. You know what I mean? It it I think you have to really put yourself in other people's shoes. It's hard to do. It's hard to do. I I get it, it's hard to do, but we need to do that. So for late night talk shows, I give them a hero uh for the most part, even though they keep people up a little too late when they gotta work the next day. Uh or whether you pay attention to them or whether you fall asleep by them, I still think they're a hero.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Me too. Okay. It's healthy for the country, for the world.
SPEAKER_02:Now, for our Fast Five, I just want to mention that it's also banned book week. And, you know, again, free speech. So your the books you want to ban might not be what I want to ban. And so if somebody writes a book and puts a book out there, I say whoever wants to read it should read it. And if you're over 18, you can make your own choices. If you're not, and your parents, you know, need to make that choice. I get it. That's fine. I'm not gonna, you know, give a five-year-old the joy of sex book. But when if you're old enough to make a decision when you get even teenagery, if you have those choices, then you know, you should be able to have have a choice.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Banned books. What is this? 1812? I mean, I understand. You want to ban books though, but you don't fucking internet.
SPEAKER_02:I know. Well, and that that's what I was gonna say is that you can ban. I have a whole list of banned books. You can ban all these books, and guess what? Your kid that you're banning these from can go online on their phone. It's like and not only get them, but get you know, something more. I don't want to say worse, but well, yeah, it could be worse.
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah, and it's it's like when the parent tells you, I don't want you to listen to Guns N' Roses. Guess what you're gonna do? You're gonna want to listen to Guns N Roses. Don't see that girl anymore. I think I'm gonna go see that girl, you know?
SPEAKER_02:And if you you know, don't watch that movie because there's sex in it. Well, guess what? Teenagers know about sex. Yeah, I hope they know about sex, and I hope that parent's telling them, here, watch this movie. You know, I will watch this movie with you, or uh, well, let's read the book together. Sure. Whatever.
SPEAKER_01:But they're parenting, that's a whole other topic. I don't know. That's a bad book. Yeah, that's like policy.
SPEAKER_02:So here's some banned books. Um, I've only read a few of them, they're mostly uh young adult books, which I love reading in young adult books. They're first of all, they're sometimes they're shorter than a novel.
SPEAKER_00:I like a short book.
SPEAKER_02:And I like a short story or a short book. Sometimes, yeah. But Kite Runner is a great book. But yeah, there's some not so great things going on there because guess what? That's life.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Um how about the uh of mice and men? Oh, it's a great book. It is a great book, it's a great movie, many versions, all great. And yeah, there's some nasty. Well, there's not even really nasty.
SPEAKER_03:No, why is that one banned?
SPEAKER_02:I don't know. I don't I didn't write down why. And then there's some that are pretty obvious. The the the first book that has been banned in 21, 22, 23 is called Gender Queer. And it's a young adult novel about somebody testing their gender.
SPEAKER_01:Which and their sexuality.
SPEAKER_02:Maybe some kids can relate to that, but maybe their parents don't want to.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I I guess I could understand if you didn't want to keep it in a school where younger kids could get it, but in a public library, I think it should be available. Because maybe your parents aren't understanding of it, but you are no matter what.
SPEAKER_01:You know, you're sitting there thinking you're a piece of shit, you're no good, you want to kill yourself, nobody understands me. Your parents are denying who you are. You're like, this is what I mean. You find the book, you're like, oh my god, I'm not alone in the world. I want to live, I want to be a good person, and I want to care for people. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:And that's what a lot of these books are. You know, uh uh, all boys aren't blue, say it's the same um subject. Uh the bluest eye, that one I think is more um child molestation.
SPEAKER_01:What? We don't want that.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it happens. No, no. We don't want.
SPEAKER_01:No, what is it? Well, I guess I don't know. But it must be about.
SPEAKER_02:It's Tony Morrison.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, well, for fuck's sake, she's not gonna write something that's gonna okay.
SPEAKER_02:She won a Nobel Peace Prize.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:A Nobel Prize. Is it up for that, isn't he? No, he's not because three scientists want to.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, but he does have his dollar his dollar coin. He's trying to come up.
SPEAKER_02:You gotta buy that though. This one's pretty obvious. This book is gay. Oh, gee, what's that about?
SPEAKER_01:Isn't that happiness?
SPEAKER_02:That used to be it used to be what I thought was interesting was uh also the whole Harry Potter series. Some people have an issue with that.
SPEAKER_01:It's a goddamn witchcraft book.
SPEAKER_02:And now that author is uh against gender changing. I don't know her.
SPEAKER_00:That's her opinion, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And that's her opinion, but um, like she's pretty vocal about it. Like a lot of people who like Terry Potter are saying no to it because of that.
SPEAKER_01:But it's what I mean. It's her opinion, yeah, for sure. Because a lot of these people that write these books can be total pieces of garbage. And they write a book that's good or bad.
SPEAKER_02:How about Captain Underpants, though?
SPEAKER_01:Oh my god, dude, those are hilarious.
SPEAKER_02:Oh god, I love underpants in them.
SPEAKER_01:So well, everyone wears underpants. Well, no, not everybody.
SPEAKER_02:I'm loving it. So those are our fast five, and I'm suggesting you go and read a band book this week.
SPEAKER_01:Buy one.
SPEAKER_02:Buy one even better.
SPEAKER_01:And and share it. Or burn it. That's your right, too. If you want to burn the fucking thing, go for it. Remember, they did that to albums too, you know?
SPEAKER_02:Burning albums, again, it goes back to what you like, it probably may not be what I like, and so don't ban it for everybody. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you get to say, nobody can read this.
SPEAKER_01:It's like saying, hey, I hate chocolate ice cream. Nobody's getting it.
SPEAKER_02:I'm allergic to it. It may gives me the runs. Nobody gets it.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:No, that's not fair.
SPEAKER_01:It's not fair. I like chocolate ice cream.
SPEAKER_02:I do too with sprinkles. Okay. All right, everyone.
SPEAKER_01:Any shout-outs? Anything else you want to get?
SPEAKER_02:I shouted out already, badly. Who to Harley for giving us such a great time.
SPEAKER_01:All right. I got nothing.
SPEAKER_02:Then you got nothing to lose.
SPEAKER_01:All right. Well, thanks, everybody. Bye-bye.
