Hero or Dick - S3., Ep. 23 - George Washington

This week we peel George Washington down to the bone—no marble shine, just the man. The contradictions stack up fast: hundreds enslaved at Mount Vernon, Washington freeing only the people he personally owned after Martha died, Martha burning their letters, and his scorched-earth orders against Native communities. All of it sitting beside the government he helped sketch and the power he refused to keep. The good is real. So is the harm. We hold both.

If you want history without hero worship—and a couple laughs along the way—hit play.

Thanks for being on this ride with us. Welcome to Hero or Dick!

~ Kate & KJ

Transcript

Cold Open In A Noisy Studio

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Bring the water.

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Oh, I'm sorry. That's alright. Oh, there's a roll of toilet paper there though, if you need it.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Spit in.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Alright. Uh we're we're oh yeah, we're recording.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Uh welcome to Hero or Dick.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

That's what we're called.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Season three, episode 22.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

We're once again from the little rattle trap that is Horsefeather Studio. We got a furnace going.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

There's a furnace going. There's buzzing and battles.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Oh, might as well do this right away.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

That always sounds good. Even if it's not a beer.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Hey, speaking of beers.

Sober Nights And Bar Hopping

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Let's speak of beer.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

We we'll we'll babble here for a few minutes because I really don't care too much for our subject matter today.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Oh wow, that's harsh.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

It is harsh, especially when people find out how it is.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

But I don't I don't know if I care about it, but you gotta know. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Well, beer. Beer. So I went out for a family member's birthday recently.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

I haven't been out to the bars, obviously, because I don't drink anymore. And I tell you what, it's the same thing. It's no different. Some of them. But no, it's the same thing, like going out drinking, and going out not drinking. Oh, that is like yeah, like I thought before it was so fun going out and getting looped up and whatever. But I behaved the same. I mean, I had the same amount of fun or not fun that I would have had. We went to three different bars. Oh, did you?

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Now recently I haven't been in here in years, but we went into the bar at the bowling alley, which I menopause lounge.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

I think it's that's what it was called.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

I think it's still that's where you went?

SPEAKER_00 1:39

It was called I we used to call it the menopause. There was, yeah. My buddy and I used to go like at 11 o'clock and in the in the day.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Oh, because they were maybe they were bowling and then they sat in the bar.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Playing some shuffleboard.

Small-Town Bowling Alley Vibes

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Well, uh, they do, you know what? I think it's called the Adobe Room. And um, really nice in there. Yeah, I haven't been in there. So you can play pool by the by the game, like for 75 cents, which is pretty cheap, or you can rent the table for an hour, which is what we did. Oh, all right. And she gave us a deal too. So there wasn't that many, there were nobody was waiting for the table or anything. But um, and they have a beautiful shuffle board, like mini shuffle board thing is really nice one. They have a dart uh uh darts available, so yeah, it was really nice. And sadly, it was Saturday night. There was uh four of us in our group, and then there was one other group of like six people, and that was it. And this was like we left at 11 o'clock and parking lot was empty, and I don't know, maybe they closed at 11. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

No, I always wondered that too. Like they could get more people there, but they don't try to maybe they don't want to, yeah, which is fine because when you do go there, it's pleasant.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Yeah, so staff is usually pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Oh, yeah, they're very food's not too bad.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

I hear they have great pizza, but we didn't just eat, so we did not have to slam back some shots. I did a rum and coke, and then that that was over the course of like two hours because I was the uh did you color your hair?

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Yeah, it didn't looks nice. Oh, look at that. You're so stylish. New jacket, too.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Uh no, this is last year's, but thank you.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

All right, well, you're very coordinated. You got the glasses and you got the hair and the jacket.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

You know, my hair does kind of coordinate with a brown car heart looking. It's not a car heart, though, it's uh something else. Yeah, it's nice.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Something you can't hold your baby.

Broken Washers And Life Logistics

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Nautica.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Nautica, oh mama. I know she is so pretty.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

It's from Costco.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

And I actually have my other coat out, but I wanted to wash it and our washer broke. And you know what? Out of everything in the house that can break, that's the worst?

SPEAKER_00 3:51

It's the worst. Yeah, maybe furnace.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Okay. In the winter this time of year. Um, but you know, you can't wash.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Are you going to the downtown laundromat now?

SPEAKER_01 4:02

No, I'm not. I'm going to Young's and buying a washer after I leave here.

Will Aliens Unite Us

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Um that's something that would bring people together. Before we got on here, we were talking about if somebody's, you know, what it's going to take for people to come together. And we think it might be the aliens.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

I think a third party, um, a common enemy.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

And maybe enemy is even too strong of a word, but until maybe not.

UFO Hearings And The Documentary

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Something that we rally around. Right. Well, age of disclosure. I watched it. The documentary about the legacy program that the Pentagon and the Central Intelligence Agency and Department of Defense have been hiding for years. And you've probably seen some of the congressional hearings.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

I have.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Holy shit. This documentary. What's it called? The Age of Disclosure. And it has like 30 high-ranking officials and governors.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Where would I find this?

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Amazon Prime. And uh I watched it with my son Julian, and Yeah, it's fascinating. Not only, and you heard this probably in some of the congressional hearings, but not only have they captured craft, and so has Russia and China. China. Now that it's like a arms race, like when we were trying to get to the moon, now it's to reverse engineer this these crafts that they found. And they actually have biological remains of some of the passengers of these vehicles. Wow. They say. You know, some people be like, that's a bunch of boneshots.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Yeah, we never want to.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

I think they're making it up. Maybe it is, but it's a very interesting documentary.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

And then maybe we'll rally around that. Or we can rally against uh white male privileged billionaires that murder their wives.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

And chop them up? Is that the guy?

SPEAKER_00 5:45

I don't know. This was just the show called The Beast and Me on Netflix. It's not a documentary, but it's about that. It's really good. Claire Danes. Claire, if you're listening, good job.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Good job, Claire.

Streaming Recs And Celebrity Tangents

SPEAKER_00 5:56

It's funny, she was on Smart List with your buddy Jason Bateman, who, by the way, is featured in Esquire magazine, and all the ladies say he looks dashing.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

It does look dashing usually. And uh I watched one of his movies recently and it was called Zootopia.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Oh, you did, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

It was cute.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Is he the fox voice or something?

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Uh yeah, I think so. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Um it was interesting because I was listening to Smartless and Claire Danes was the guest, and she's pretty interesting. She had she had recently had a kid and she's like my age. So she's got her hands full. She's a woman. She is a woman. Wow. Yeah, I can't have them tried.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

No.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Um, but so then I happened to go on the old Netflix there and that's on Netflix? She was in it. Uh what's it called? The Beast in Me. And you know, I thought it was a little cool because she plays a writer.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Oh. She got that. But what all I'm gonna say is the two new ones I watch were both crap. Jesus, Kate. Well, they were. I watched uh Christmas one with Michelle Pfeiffer, who I I love and she's beautiful, and Dennis Leary, who I used to love, but I don't love them so much, although we do have the same color hair dye. Um, it was called Oh period, what period fun. Oh what fun. It was not fun. No, it was not fun at all. Was it a Netflix or Prime, I think, but it could have been on Netflix. And then the other one I watched was on Netflix or Prime, and it had such potential. It's called Jay Kelly, George Clooney, Adam Sandler.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Uh-oh. I'm not gonna watch that. And I just put it in my list two nights ago.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Oh, what a snoozer!

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Yeah, yeah, they're just banking some of them.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Both of you, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

They're probably not gonna be on the show now.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Well, they probably weren't before, and they don't need the money, but and I mean what it kissed me off is that I saw them both promoting it. Oh, this is a great movie, it's so cool, it's so this, it's so that, and it's like, no, no, it's not. It's not a good movie, you guys. No, it was just boring. It was about a guy who was an actor who shocking. He chose his job over his family, and now he would like his time back.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Oh, imagine that.

Pivot To George Washington

SPEAKER_01 8:18

You know, uh, don't waste your time.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

I'm not gonna do it now. It's coming off my list, but now is the time of year to watch shows up here in the world.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Well, and I was so excited because they're both new, and I'm like, all right, a new one.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

You gotta dust off the oldies. Get your Christmas movies going.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

We did. We dusted off uh oldie last night, and it was delightful. It was called The Christmas Chronicles and Kurt Russell.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Dude, he kicks ass in there.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

I know, it was so funny. I you know, the the jail singing is kind of a little over the top, but he played Elvis before, so he can do that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Yeah. So what's our topic today? Not Christmas.

Washington’s Slavery And Myths

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Can it be something else than George Washington?

SPEAKER_01 9:01

It is George Washington. George Washington George, who you uh, you know, I should say this in the summary, but I'm gonna sum it up right now. Uh if you go on the internet, they have whitewashed George Washington like every other white guy. Really? Yeah, why would they do that? It's like, why? Come on, man. George had slaves. He did this, he did that. And one of them had actually said he when he died, he had 300 slaves because he was unwilling to break up families.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

But he broke up families to get the slaves.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

You have if you have slaves, you have slaves. Right. You can't spin it as, oh, I didn't want to, I didn't want to break up the family. And then uh the other thing is, oh, and then when he died, he let he let uh had something that said all the free all the slaves could be freed.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

But they didn't.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

But there's a little clause in there that says, Oh, after Martha dies, they can all be free. And then what I watched on the Ken Burns document, which was excellent, um, is that Martha was a little afraid that they were going to rally against her. So she let them go early. She didn't wait till she died because she thought they were gonna kill her.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

They might have maybe that's why she burned all those letters. Maybe. You know, she burned them all, right? She only kept three letters between her and Georgie.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Isn't that fascinating?

SPEAKER_01 10:33

I think uh that says a lot. So why did she not want people maybe they were erotic?

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Well, the w the whitewash version that I read it said that she wanted to keep their love and what they really meant to each other to themselves so that the world didn't know about it. So that's whatever. Okay. And I tried this morning, I got up, I'm like, ah, we got the podcast today. I'm trying to psych myself up. And I was thinking, you know what? Could he wasn't the only one that had slaves? I'm not justifying it. You know, I was trying to like say, okay, what what are they gonna say about you and I a hundred years, two hundred years from now? You know, we're we're doing something wrong now, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Oh, that will be busted for later. Yeah, yeah, like we think it's okay now. But yeah, I don't think anyone thought slavery was okay, except the people who owned the slaves and had them making money for them.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Sure. But so No, I I want to make be clear here so I don't get we don't have slaves. Yeah, and I don't think it was appropriate, no. But I'm saying that it was just the that's what unfortunately the way things were fucking stupid. This whole country was built on other people suffering. It is, you know, it still is. Really? I haven't noticed that.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

It's true. So I really had to dig to find something that I liked about George Washington. Oh, come on.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

There had to be plenty. There had to be a few things. He was the natural leader, and he he was strategic strategic uh war dude, general.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

He was a strategic war person. He only won six out of the sixteen battles in the Revolutionary War that he was in charge of. That's not if you're in football, you're not winning. No, I mean, six out of sixteen.

Strengths, Privilege, And Power

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Not going to the Super Bowl with that one. No, no, he was strong, very strong. Did you ever read about that? Like he apparently could throw like these big rocks a long distance. He could go for days like hiking. He was a surveyor in his youth. He was a land surveyor. That wasn't like a desk job. That's like you're cutting trees and bush and going through the property with the machete.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

True.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Um, he did have to endure his father dying when he was young, right? And then his brother died when he was somewhat young, I guess. Um he came from privilege, though.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

He did. He was uh one time the richest man in Virginia, yeah, maybe even the nation.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Well, in Virginia was it though.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

He inherited his first slave, yeah, that's true. He inherited his first slave at age 11. Happy birthday, buddy. It's terrible. It's horrible. I mean, I can't. I can't even imagine. I I have to laugh or I will cry.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Think of the slave. Like you get pulled away from your family, and you're like, okay, you're this 11-year-old's utility vehicle.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Yeah, that's that's bullshit. It's so weird.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

I can't I can't comprehend it.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Okay. Um when he died, he had 300 slaves.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Um, he also owned racehorses. He liked to ride, play billiards, fox hun, dance, whiskey distillery. Break it down.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

He was actually the first break dancer. That's what I could find. I don't think that's well he had a whiskey distillery, which was interesting because he shut the whole shit down and then opened his own distillery, correct?

SPEAKER_01 13:59

Yeah, towards the end, he was uh the founding father of a rye and corn distillery.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

11,000 gallons of rye whiskey.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

That's he did go to um Barbados with his brother Lawrence, and he got smallpox there.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

And when he recovered, it gave him a lifelong immunity to it. So that helped him live longer than most people. He also in his lifetime had dysentery, malaria, tuberculosis, and pneumonia. And yet he still lived.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Died of a getting ahead of myself, but then he died of a throat infection. Trying to get that.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

That was what his throat felt like. Ow.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

He was an agricultural innovator.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

I mean, yeah, because he acquired acres of timber forests that belonged to the natives. Oh my god, it didn't belong to them. Um, they used it because that's what they did and lived off the land and never thought they owned it.

Teeth, Dogs, And Dark Details

SPEAKER_00 14:58

And he was uh a bit of a terrible person when it came to the Native Americans. Yeah. He he uh issued scorch and burn tactics where you just go in and burn everybody, everything. Uh again, part of the times, I guess that's totally acceptable.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

That's uh I don't it's not acceptable.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

It's bad, it's it's inhumane, immoral.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Yeah, no matter what time it is. Do you think people went yay for George when he did that? They did. Well, they probably did.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Well, yeah. I mean, that's how we got it.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Because he was a strong leader, and he did rally troops. Um, you know, he had some big wins, and so after the Revolutionary War, he resigned his military commission.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Um he actually did it like you're supposed to, instead of hanging on to it like some big faces.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Some people do, yeah, and and embellish it more. So I think that's how he became president, though. They're like, he doesn't want to be president, so let's make him president. Or he doesn't want to be king.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

And he did do a couple things. He established the executive branch, including the first cabinet, although his cabinet was only four people, not 850, however, many are on the cabinet now. I don't know. And he did um establish peaceful transition of power. Hey, remember that? And he voluntarily retired after two terms, which set a critical, critical precedent for limited. Yeah, but we're gonna change that. Limited.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Yeah, but we're gonna change that.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Presidential power, limited. And he also started the judicial appointed um so first ever Supreme Court, lower Fed court judge shaping the entire uh federal judiciary system.

Institutions, Courts, And Precedents

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Do you think that we should complain about him because we were reaping the benefits of the fact that he was a tyrannical pecker?

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Um, I think that's you know, uh with a lot of people, he did wow, he did his shared dickish things. I mean and then some. But he did a couple good things, and that's what people, especially on the internet now, um, remember him.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Well, he loved dogs, and some of them were named Sweet Lips, Tipler, Drunkard, and Vulcan.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

He named one Cornwallis Cornwallish after his enemy or some guy that he defeated.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

What about uh did he kick the dog? I want to treat it like shit. Probably he he loved ice cream and he spent a lot of money on it.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

He was that why he didn't have teeth? No, you know why he didn't have teeth? Like to crack that this is gonna hurt for people who who don't like teeth things, so close your ears.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Brooke don't listen.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

This he liked to crack walnuts with his teeth. Come on, and that's how he lost his teeth. And his replacements weren't wooden, they were ivory, animal teeth and slave teeth.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

But he purchased them.

unknown 18:07

He did not.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

That's what I read.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Oh, the slaves?

SPEAKER_00 18:10

The teeth from the slaves.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

He did not.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Come on.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

I he worked out like some layaway plan with him, and he got Hey, you got any extra teeth? Yeah. Um he uh had a fear of he had a fear of being buried alive.

Death, Bloodletting, And Final Words

SPEAKER_01 18:25

He did, which I'm I'm uh that's the only thing I agree with him on. Not the only, but a big one. So he wanted everybody to wait three wait three days before they buried him. Which did they? I think that's a good idea, no matter who you are.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Really?

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

What do you think of that when they uh they do the uh immediate uh cremation on people?

SPEAKER_01 18:50

I think they're trying to hide something.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Suspect, I think so too.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Uh oh, cow's teeth. Going back to teeth, and another thing he had teeth made out of. This will explain a lot lead. Uh what else you got about GW?

SPEAKER_00 19:10

I think you you summed it up.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Oh, he was the first American mule breeder. I thought that was interesting.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

He did it himself.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Kate, what's going on?

SPEAKER_01 19:22

I don't know. I'm buzzing, buzzing, buzzing. Oh, it's all mine.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

I'll just keep my head. Oh, right here. Don't mind us, everybody. We just there we go. It's fixed. Thanks, Tyler. Um no, and so yeah, he ended up dying. Um what he was riding through some freezing rain, he got a throat infection, and then he couldn't breathe. So uh the doctors tried to save him by uh using blistering agents, vinegar mixtures, and they actually uh bled him, bloodletting.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Um show me a time where that worked.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

I'll look it up.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Okay, I'll check.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

GPT it. Um five pints of blood, forty percent of his blood volume. So he was uh conscious through most of the stuff. Uh he knew he was dying, and his final words were simple, and they were I wish I didn't have slaves.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

That was it. Are you kidding?

Verdict: Hero, Dick, Or Both

SPEAKER_00 20:19

I'm kidding. It was no, it was Tiswell. So you obviously think he was a hero. Right?

SPEAKER_01 20:31

I mean he did a couple things, and good for you for being the first president, but no, he is a dick.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Well, he did hold the continental army together.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Did he?

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Yep, and he did refuse monarchy. He did.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

That's one thing I like about it.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

He established the peaceful democratic transfer to power, which he started. Yes, yes. He created institutions and precedents that still guide the presidency, except for some. And then um, I don't know, his relationship with Martha.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

He had a fucking affair.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

I wasn't even gonna mention that, but I did read he had was it a physical one, emotional one? I guess it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

It was an affair.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

It was an affair.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Okay. So you're saying he was a dude.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

He married Martha because she had money. Do you have you seen pictures of her?

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Not not attractive. Have you seen pictures of him? Not attractive.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

There's a couple pictures of him. Hey, did they have kids? Uh no, they did not, but she had some kids because she was married. Oh. And uh widowed. And then he did raise her kids.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

He was a good dad, see?

SPEAKER_01 21:38

No.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

No.

Textbooks, Whitewashing, And Memory

SPEAKER_01 21:39

We don't know that.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

I don't know. He's a dick.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

He's a dick.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

He's a hero, but he's a dick.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

He did a couple heroic things. Well, he did shit that we would.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

No.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Yeah. I don't know. I think we need to stop talking about people.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

No more people.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Well, why do you say that?

SPEAKER_00 22:00

I don't know. Most people, well, some of the people that we talk about in the past, it's just hard because number one, I don't think we could ever comprehend what's like really living in that time. True. It doesn't excuse their behavior, but they probably thought it was the norm.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

It's so and it we don't know. We're going by information. That's like saying every every story in the Bible is true. No, it's not. It can't be. So we're only going by the information we have.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

So and you want to be on the right side of history.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

But sometimes when you're in history living it, you know, you think you're on the right side and you're not.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

I tell you what, though. If they haven't yet, they need to update some textbooks.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Oh my god, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Just not with this, just with everything.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Everything.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

I mean, everything.

Fast Five: Classic Carols

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Well, they have been. They've been whitewashing them, taking stuff out that, and I'm not kidding you. When you um look online, especially stuff that was geared towards homeschooling and towards kids. Oh god. It was like, here, tell your kids about, you know, yes, he was a slave owner, but he he was unwilling to break up the families and sell them.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Yeah. That doesn't and he paid for their teeth. He didn't just take them.

unknown 23:20

No, he didn't.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

I know, but that's in the buttons, right? I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

All right. He's a dick. He's a dick. I had a fast five, and then it's not on it's not on here.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

What what was it? You don't remember?

SPEAKER_00 23:33

It was about things about Washington, I think. Oh, I think it's a good idea. And they would have it would have gone over poorly with you.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

I'm kind of done with him. Um but just do watch the Ken Burns documentary. It's long, but it's about the revolution. Yeah. Tons of pictures. Pictures, pictures, pictures. And um, it's interesting. So what I did was just have uh a few Christmas carols, and you can tell me if they're here or dicks. And these are all traditional ones. What do you think? Was that jingle bells?

SPEAKER_00 24:09

That was five.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Oh, ready for the fast five.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Who was that too? We need better ducks.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Uh how about we three kings?

SPEAKER_00 24:20

I don't like it.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Why?

SPEAKER_00 24:22

I just don't like it.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

They're too pushy, those things. I don't We Three Kings of Orient are. I don't really know any more of a song. That's why I think they bring, aren't they the kings that bring the rewiseman, isn't it? Yeah, they bring the myrrh and gold and something else.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Jerry.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

And isn't that the famous cartoon that says if three women would have came, they would have broken ass rolls. The lady just had a very stereotypical. I don't need gold. I need some diapers.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

That's true. Get some formula. I don't want this kid sucking at me the rest of my days here. Uh uh.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Well, she did uh yeah. Uh how about a way in a manger?

SPEAKER_00 25:06

You know, I do enjoy that little ditty.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

That's a nice story.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

But it is.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

Do you see the manger thing on our house?

SPEAKER_01 25:12

We're not yeah, it looks nice. Oh fuck. We're not really religious. I like your Charlie Brown thing better.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Oh, do you? Yeah, I didn't. Yeah, my mom made that and uh Brooke made the other one. Do you see the stockings too? Oh, I didn't know on the side of the house facing the funeral home. I got a light on it. You can see she painted this window with stockings on it.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

Okay, I did see something in the window, but I couldn't tell what it was. I'll have to pay attention. How about Silent Night?

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Ah, damn, I love that one too.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Do you?

SPEAKER_00 25:38

You know why? Why? I used to go to my grandma Stevens and my brothers and I would sing it for my grandma.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Oh, that's so strange.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

We were horrible. I could tell by the look on my uncle's faces, but and they I bet they loved it.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

She really did. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

My Aunt Jerry loved it too. So that's a good memory. Wait, do you like it?

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Well, now I do.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Okay, thanks. I'll try to think of a Three Kings story for you.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

How about this one? Oh, come, all you faithful.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Only if Robert Goulet is singing it.

Music, Nostalgia, And Debates

SPEAKER_01 26:07

In a circle? Like in it around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like Robert Goulet's good those goulet voice.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Like, I've been turning on uh holiday classics on old Sirius XM, and I swear to God, every time I turn it on, he's blurring something out.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

He is my favorite, favorite is uh Dean Martin's Christmas. Oh my gosh. I just heard one on the way here, uh, Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer. There's a little German accent in there. It's like, what are you doing, Dean?

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Uh he claims he didn't.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

And my favorite rape song, uh What song? The Weather Outside. The rapes.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Yeah, maybe it's cold outside.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Maybe it's cold outside.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

I got that got a badass rap.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Jesus Christ. Bill Cosby being a dumbass around the same time that whole thing came out, right? Well, he was before that, he was a dumbass. But then everyone wants it off to radio. It's not about that. Jesus Christ, people. Oops. No, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Well, that's kind of appropriate.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Um, my second favorite is actually called Date Rape. What's I think Weezer sings it or somebody like who sings Hashby?

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Weezer.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Do they?

SPEAKER_00 27:14

How come I don't know that? Google, where's Tyler?

SPEAKER_01 27:16

I'll Google it.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

You gave him off for the holidays.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Tell me what you think of Joy to the World.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Joy to the world. And he plugs in the lights.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Oh, and of course that came up on my phone.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Did it?

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Oh, on uh Chevy Chase Christmas Vacation. I do not like him, but I love that movie.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Come on. Hot tub time machine.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

He's not in that.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

He's the repairman for the hot tub.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

Oh, he is.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Community.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Yeah, commute. We talked about him. No, he's a dick. I like everything he's in. I think he's kind of a dick.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

I kind of liked him after talking about what a dick he was, though.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Because he doesn't care.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Give me something to shoot for.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:53

Um, what are you looking up again?

SPEAKER_01 27:54

I'm looking up that song, Date Rape. It's Sublime.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Sublime. That's close. Okay.

2026 Plans And Writing Wins

SPEAKER_01 27:59

It's a great song.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Hmm. Not as good as Prison Sex by Tool, probably. What?

SPEAKER_01 28:05

What is that?

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Well, I don't know. Okay. We could talk about some more stuff, but okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Those are my those are the songs that I had. I picked all traditional.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

I like it. We're not doing this anymore, are we? After this.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Um, I think we have one more this year. You mean ever again? No. Are you quitting?

SPEAKER_00 28:22

No.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Are you quiet quitting?

SPEAKER_00 28:24

No, no. I mean um I thought, what is the date today?

SPEAKER_01 28:27

The oh wait. It's a 10th.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

I thought it was the 15th.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

No, well, I think we'll have we'll squeak in one more.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Oh, good. What is it gonna be about? Christmas memories.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

Uh uh okay. Um, I don't know if anybody has um they don't. Uh Duncan Cassidy gave me some.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

So we'll talk.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

There's gotta be something else we can talk about.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

Other than Christmas?

SPEAKER_00 28:53

No, I mean right now. Are we are we done? Are we good?

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Are you still talking?

SPEAKER_00 28:57

I feel like there's other stuff we gotta talk about. You get all your shopping done, Christmas shopping?

SPEAKER_01 29:00

No, no, but um this is 2026, it's gonna be the year of the remodel in our family. Remodel. Because Cassidy's gonna remodel parts of her house, and Jenna and Mike just bought a house and they have some remodeling to do. So that makes Christmas shopping at Lowe's or wherever.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Costco.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

You ever go to Ikea? Cassidy, yes, I have. I loved it. Um, Cassidy got Jenna for a housewarming gift of uh um membership to Costco, and I thought that was genius.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

That is nice.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

I have been to IKEA, and it was genius too.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

You're gonna remodel your house?

SPEAKER_01 29:40

I got a couple things I need done.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

And the building?

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Uh god I'm gonna do it. And the property.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

What else you got?

SPEAKER_01 29:47

I thought you still had property. We do, but I'm not remodeling. Oh, that's right. That's it. That's all I own. What about you? What are you gonna do? What's your well we can talk about it later, but when when you think 2026, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Writing.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

I've been on a roll lately.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Have you?

SPEAKER_00 30:07

Yeah, my wife's even like, wow, you've been putting in dollars. I haven't. I don't know. I'm at 52 years old. I think I'm finally hitting my groove.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Well, Joe King says Who's Joe King? Joe King is Stephen King's.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Who means that's not his name, it's Joe Hill.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

You went to see him.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

We did, he was fabulous and funny. And he said, just keep writing.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

I think a lot of artists, no matter what their medium, they say that if you're a painter, just keep painting. You don't have to keep everything. You can throw it away or you can see you can't throw that away. You can, you know, do anything you want, but just keep doing it. Right. Don't just sit there and go, really need to start writing a lot of things. We get better than it or whatever.

Bookstore Dreams And Sign-Off

SPEAKER_00 30:47

The one thing about writing maybe other arts as well is like I I can go through I have 40 years of material and I can go through that now, some of it, and now there's a part of it that's like, holy shit, that's actually worth expanding. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Take that out of it.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

I don't have to haven't I don't want to say anything, but I I well I can say something because I can't say where it's at because I'm not supposed to, but I entered a uh piece into a contest, I guess. Oh uh it's one of the top three uh flash fiction magazines in the world.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

That's exciting.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

And I made the long list, which out of 1,300 uh down to 50.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

That's exciting right now. Now I made it very good.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

I made it to the short list.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

What how many?

SPEAKER_00 31:38

25 down to out of over 1300. So I'm like, that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

That that alone I can uh use as well are you gonna say it's an honor just to be nominated? But it kinda is out of 1300, and there's 25 left, and well, you're one of them. That's a huge honor.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Well, and hopefully they publish something.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

But wouldn't they publish all 25 eventually?

SPEAKER_00 32:01

I think they're taking it down lower yet. But that was pretty cool. So I'm hitting my stride.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

So when are you gonna know stuff?

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Oh, probably the next week or so. They've been updating me every whatever, and they say, Oh, you can celebrate, and but don't tell anybody.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Like, uh, it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Okay, so luckily nobody's listening. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

But anyhow, so there's some news.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

All right.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

So that's what 2026 is gonna be for me. I'm gonna keep writing.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

2026 is the year of the.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

Do it. I don't know. We gotta do something else, though. We still should do a bookstore.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

Yeah, we should.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

And do our own magazine.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

And online literate, like good stuff. All right, not just everybody gets to get published.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Everybody doesn't win a prize. We're here to criticize. That could be our tagline.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

We're here to criticize.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Everybody doesn't get a prize.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

We're here to criticize.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Hero or dick, the publishing company.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

All right. Well, we better go. Yeah. I gotta go buy a washer.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

What? Oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Well, enjoy everybody.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

Okay, talk to you soon. Bye.