Hero or Dick

Hero or Dick - S4., Ep. 1 - EMO

• Kate & KJ • Season 4 • Episode 1

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If you ever sang along to a lyric in your car because it said the thing you couldn’t, this one’s for you.

We open Season Four with special guest Harley, talking emo—where it came from, what it did, and why it still matters. From Rites of Spring cracking the door, to bands like My Chemical Romance and Fall Out Boy turning private pain into something you could sing out loud. Small rooms. Big feelings. No armor.

That’s emo.
 Hero and dick. Sometimes in the same verse.

Thanks for tuning in.

— Kate & KJ

SPEAKER_01:

I think it's I think we're going to be live.

SPEAKER_03:

Here we are at season four.

SPEAKER_01:

Episode one.

SPEAKER_03:

Episode one. Welcome to 2026.

SPEAKER_01:

It is 2026.

SPEAKER_03:

Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01:

And um I guess uh we'll introduce our guests.

SPEAKER_03:

We're gonna jump right into it because we got a lot to say about it. So, but I just want to preface with saying that um when we started this uh to do a podcast called Hero or Dick. Hero Dick. I don't think we said that. Yeah. Um my one of my main goals was to uh learn something and evaluate and uh take something away from it. You know, I don't want to just do kittens every time.

SPEAKER_01:

I like kittens.

SPEAKER_03:

Uh I think they're dicks. Just kidding.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow, all right. Some people do. Some people think kittens are dicks.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, maybe we'll have to explore that, and maybe I will learn something about kittens in the mix.

SPEAKER_01:

So that's why I started the podcast for a different reason.

SPEAKER_03:

Why did you start the podcast?

SPEAKER_01:

To get out of the house, to just hang out with you, Kate. To reconnect. Uh because you you know I don't put much effort into this.

SPEAKER_03:

So it has been nice to reconnect with you too. That is very nice. And so every other week we get together and we visit, and then we have them. Oh, but hey, by the way, we're doing a podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, let's record something. And uh sorry, I'm putting things off, but did you um see the email I sent you?

SPEAKER_03:

No. Oh, I did.

SPEAKER_01:

It gave us the year in uh a year in review from Buzz.

SPEAKER_03:

Let's review at the end of the Yeah, that's fine.

SPEAKER_01:

We can wait.

SPEAKER_03:

But yeah, we're in three years, and yeah, we're we're I'm impressed with what we've done.

SPEAKER_01:

We still haven't done the swag.

SPEAKER_03:

No, that's coming this year.

SPEAKER_01:

Done a live event.

SPEAKER_03:

Maybe coming this year too.

SPEAKER_01:

The Alpina County Alpina County Affairs. Be awesome. All right. Well, let's uh get to the guests, I'm sure she has better things to do.

SPEAKER_03:

So our topic today is emo, and our special guest is Harley.

SPEAKER_01:

Yay!

SPEAKER_03:

Hi, Harley. Hi, everybody. Hi people, thank you for having me. Oh, we're so thrilled that you're here because I knew that you would be an expert, but I didn't think you would be the expert. You might you could write a book. I I think you might need to.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and this is great because I don't really do a lot of research. So I have a crutch again. So no, I guess let's get ripping. And I mean, I uh what to uh the the the folks out there that don't know, I guess, uh, what is emo? Because when you think of it, some people think of it as a culture, some think of it as just music. So, what exactly do you uh do you think it is?

SPEAKER_00:

That's a good question. Um, I think it's all the above because I think of it in terms of like its history and its lineage, where it started, where it's gone, where it is now. And so I primarily think of it as a genre, a sub-genre of um anything that you could consider in the scene. So it's an alternative music. It comes from a lineage of punk, of post-punk, post-hardcore. We don't have to get you know too deep in the weeds. People can Google it. Um but emo is a music that I think was so strong that it became a culture, it became a community, and has um is still has evolved over time since its you know inception, like in the 80s. And we're obviously in 2026, so it's changed uh as people grow up, as people change, as the world and the political context that we live in changes. Um, but it is all of the above because when you love something and when something becomes a part of your identity, you change it, and then it's bigger than just music, right?

SPEAKER_03:

And absolutely everything to everything you just said, and it really does become some people's um It's an identity. It's an identity, yeah. That's a good way to say it. I was gonna say a life, but I mean it's not, but it doesn't have by by saying that I I don't mean I don't think Harley is emo girl like she every aspect of her life is living through emo. But I think there are lots of people like you, Harley, who identify with it and it is a part of their larger life.

SPEAKER_01:

Like the a personal code, you know. Um part of your fiber.

SPEAKER_03:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, I I kind of have that um with I don't like calling it grunge, but like pearl gene in those folks, you know. And so yeah, I can see what are you saying. No, I mean I do have Eddie Vetter underwear on right now.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, we won't ask you to prove it. Okay. I don't think Eddie were underwater.

SPEAKER_01:

That's right. He's a stud, you know. Anyway. Um, so I I guess what are some of the uh you were talking a little bit about, you know, it started as um it just existed because that's who people were and that's what they did. And so uh then it grew. What are some of the first uh bands or like the initial movement? Where do you where did that start, I guess?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, good question. So I I'll also say I'm only 33, so I was born in the early 90s, which means that's the the origin point of emo predates me, and so I was not there, obviously. Sure.

SPEAKER_03:

Um You weren't an emo baby either. I've known her all her life, and she wasn't an emo baby. But I would love to meet an emo baby.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That's true. That was so true. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00:

The hardcore theme in DC was really big at the time. Emo is kind of an accidental offshoot. Um, the the band that is routinely considered the origin point is Rites of Spring. Um, and they pushed it, you know, away from the kind of traditional hardcore into this. What we see now is like this very vulnerable, emotion-driven, heavy emphasis on lyricism that you know drew from other places, but hadn't really been seen to that point. Um, and so in the in the 90s is when the kind of Midwest emo takes hold, which is maybe the most perfect, if you want to be a purist version of the art form happens. Um, with bands like Sunny Day Real Escape, The Promised Ring, Jimmy Eworld is probably the most widely love those goodness. I think as mainstream as a kind of 90s emo can get. Um but then as we move from the 90s to the 2000s, emo gets very mainstream, very fast. Uh, and then you you move into what we call the third wave, which is the bands that everyone remembers from the 2000s as what we call mall emo or hot topic emo. We see the my chemical romances of the world, the Fallout Boys, bands that are mixing pop pump that's like very accessible and very popular with young people. And bringing these kind of legacies of emo, of the vulnerability and the not being afraid to talk about all emotions of the human experience. They kind of blend it and it gets really mainstream and really popular. It's on MTV, it's on, you know, which I think doesn't maybe exist anymore.

SPEAKER_03:

But um it was when MTV was um TV had music videos. Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Um that's what most people in the public, I think, think of when they think of emo, is that wave where it was like really in your face. You see a lot of the clothing, people started dressing really like the swoopy hair.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Everything with a black background, too.

SPEAKER_00:

And those like really choppy layered haircuts. So to your point, I was listening to the music at the time in the early 2000s when I became 10 years old or whatever, old enough to have my first iPod. I didn't dress that way. I wasn't a part of the visible culture, and I think it's probably because I lived in such a rural area. There wasn't any, there wasn't expensive.

SPEAKER_03:

We didn't have a hot topic.

SPEAKER_00:

And so um, you know, I couldn't go to Detroit show when I was 10 years old. So um and then after the early 2000s, people are tired of it. They're burnt out, obviously. With any movement, they're burnt out. And it kind of goes underground, I would say again after that in the 2010s. Um it reverts back to its more 90s, like it's more simple form, it's not mainstream. And then in COVID is where we see this big, what I'm calling it, the fifth wave resurgence. Um and I think that it makes sense. Any big political or cultural event that happens produces art, as you guys well know. And so the COVID experience comes out with a lot of these, you know, newly graduated from high school or newly graduated from college kids that are experiencing something in a collective whatever experience. And so they're writing about it. And so right now I feel like emo is really big again, especially in the Midwest, especially in these places where we're like still trying to process COVID.

SPEAKER_03:

And do you think COVID made a uh I think you use the term hyperlocal?

SPEAKER_04:

Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

So after COVID or during COVID, just because of um convenience, probably too, um it it really became very localized.

SPEAKER_01:

Meaning like localized where? Like just in different areas? So it was kept capturing the mood of what was happening in that specific area.

SPEAKER_03:

Like in Detroit, you're seeing you know, Detroit bands or in, you know, wherever you are.

SPEAKER_01:

What's the uh well uh one question is that 10 years old or whatever or now what were you listening to on that iPod? What what bands were they?

SPEAKER_00:

I I don't know all of this. I've had really great babysitters and really great older cousins that would be like, here you can have this CD, I don't want it. And they went give things to me, or I'd be in their truck, we'd be driving, you know. I was like, I had a summer babysitter when I was like eight, and they put on Sublime, which is not email. And I was like, what is this? And just was totally captivated by it. And then as we get into the iPod generation, we have online ceiling music. So we're using LimeWire, and what you would do is you would download an album that you knew about, like Fallout Boy, that was really popular, and it would bring other albums with you, or you'd buy a CD, and the label would have put another new band CD on top of it. So when you got home with the, for example, like uh Victory Records was considered like the big one of the time. When you would buy the Thursday, Thursday was a big band at this time. When you would buy their album, they'd have the Silverstein album on top of it.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

If you liked it, it's kind of like uh now, if you like this, then you should listen to this. Oh, warp tour. I think I still have a sweat stream.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think that people would that's how it was there. So for me, it was a lot of my chemical romance at the time. Um a lot of the really embarrassing ones.

SPEAKER_01:

Go ahead. What uh where does some fit some 41 fit into this? Because they're kind of punk, aren't they?

SPEAKER_03:

We need that email or the website um that email is this banned email. And you just key in the band email.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah, yeah. I saw that.

SPEAKER_03:

And then it tells you.

SPEAKER_01:

I should have used it.

SPEAKER_03:

Because there was a couple of them that I I tried. So I tried Green Day. No, they're not email. And then I tried one that um uh uh years ago, Cassidy and Jenna and I were obsessed with this band called Thunderbirds Are Now. And they are out of Livonia, Michigan, and they're no longer a band, sadly. But I I've re-listened to them in the past couple days, too, because of this. And I thought, well, they could be emo. And I did type them in and they weren't in the database. So yeah, it said somebody's gonna check it out, but I don't know that that's true.

SPEAKER_00:

Sum 41 is classic pop punk with a hardcore edge. This is me talking. I my PhD is in gender studies, my PhD is not emo, it could be, but it's some people maybe your next one, Candy. My next one, yeah. And so Sum 41, I would say, is an older cousin.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

You have to have the Sum 41s, you have to have the people who took classic punk and pushed it somewhere else before you can then push it towards what we have at the email. And so Sum 41, Green Day out there are like older cousins.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm glad you brought up the older cousins because when we talked earlier, um, you said the scene is kind of like a family tree. And that I think that helps to think of it like a family tree. It's like it's not all, you know, one. It's there is the older cousins, and there's weird cousins, and there's you know, like cousins you don't talk about.

SPEAKER_01:

I think too uh something something that Harley um pointed out was uh emo, it's emotional, of course, emo. And uh the it's very uh it's poetic. I mean they're really they're pretty good at lyrics, uh you know, and I appreciate that being a writer. The thing is, like you can see like you had that, you know, well, we the 80s, nobody that was dumb music. I mean, I like some 80s music, but it's not it's not it's not to your core, it's fun. And then you get the 90s where you got people like Chris Cornell and um Andrew Wood and some folks, they're really digging into lyrics, getting back into lyrics, and then by the time emo comes around, it's like they're really refining the emotional message, you know. It's like that's the focus.

SPEAKER_03:

And when you get down to it, lyrics are poetry, but the music.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, not that we didn't have it before, Jim Morris. I mean it's always been a few outliers, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Uh if you're gonna go overall, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

80s was now when you uh a question, because I you know, I obviously know emo, but not like you do. But I'm just curious in your thoughts. Um emo, you know, because I know my chemical romance has some songs that are almost slow, uh slower songs, but most emo is kind of it does have that punk nature to it, correct?

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely, yeah. Um I think that the bet I mean this is yeah, you're asking my opinion. The best emo, I think, dances the bat dances the dance or strikes the balance between all those this full spectrum of emotions, which is you can think of it as like a quadrant. There's like hyper positive emotion, there's hyper negative emotion, but then the other quadrant, the other axis is there's really quiet, introverted, deep, dark, really scary, really scary quiet. You know those people are like scary quiet. And then really in your face, which is the punk or the hardcore end of the spectrum. And I think the best emo bands, either they're they've they've chosen their quadrant and they hang out there, or they they strike a balance between really really fast drums, really punk, towards more of the math rock, which you can do another episode about math rock. Math rock changes, the finger-picking guitar, the flow, um, and everything kind of in the middle. I think it spans. There are bands that definitely span the that.

SPEAKER_03:

And so, what would you say to um someone who says uh emo is blamed for increased teen depression, self-harm, suicide? Um I I mean, I think you can blame you could say you can change emo with country music or you know, whatever. I think if you are susceptible to that, you you are, you know, anything you hear might bring you up or down. But they did get a bad rap.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. I mean, I think about the dashboard confessional um of the world and the you know, the Hawthorne Heights song was so popular in 04. Put my wrist and black my eyes so I can fall asleep. Like it was very dark, it was very over the top, melodramatic.

SPEAKER_03:

Like Ohio is for lovers? Is that the song?

SPEAKER_00:

And teenagers were screaming that. What does that mean? And I, you know, I see emo as any other cultural object. Do we do we create what we already are? Do we create things that change who we are? Yes. Video games are blamed for a lot of violence. Um sports are blamed for a lot of violence, like everything that we love. I think there's balance. I think it's both. I think that it it did probably encourage people to really, really focus on the darker things. I do think that I have to be careful because I'll be like, damn, I'm spending a lot of time in this mode or whatever. As you get older, I think it's easier to move out. But I think it was overhyped because people after 9-11, kids were really lost. A lot of these bands started because of 9-11. Kids were not through her to turn because the people, the adults around them weren't encouraging them to express their confusion and their dark thoughts. And so I think it became an outlet and probably also became like a circle where it then further isolated kids because they're like, I'm gonna sit in my room and listen to my email playlist. Like that's absolutely true. The extremes, there's always extremes of human behavior, but it also brought community forward for a lot of people and was a place to really think about art and what art can do for us, just like I think any good art. So I feel both and about it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and people don't talk about how many people it has saved.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03:

Maybe that's what we need to concentrate in stuff.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Um, I'm curious. This is a little off track because that's what I like to do. Um, your your PhD is in women's studies.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yeah. My PhD is oh, it's a dual PhD in women's studies and psychology, but not in the city.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh shit, okay. That's awesome. All right, then I won't ask my question. No, I'm kidding. So, no, what I'm interested in is uh this obviously plays into what you studied in some aspects, does it not?

SPEAKER_03:

I mean I think everything in the world does, really. I mean when you get down to it. It does.

SPEAKER_00:

How people like things, how they move in the world in their bodies. Gender studies obviously focuses a lot on gender, race, um, sexual orientation. How does uh is like just observing like how people understand themselves based on like the things they do and the categories they're in. And so I think being a part of in you know, the emo community really early just encouraged me to vote give me gave me language to vocalize.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

I definitely think that's Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I guess yeah, that's what I was kind of driving at because I think a lot of the topics that are uh in the music uh aligns with gender studies and everything else, you know, awareness, making people more aware.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. And I think that emo uh as a as a as a general genre is very um friendly to everybody. You know, they're queer, trans friendly, they're not even though again Harley and I talked about this, even though most of the bands, well, first of all, they're bands, not just like one single guy or girl. Um and most of the members are young, white boys. But even though there's that, they are they are still friendly towards everybody.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. You say queer?

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know. I wasn't there in the 80s, I wasn't there in the 90s. I don't know how queer friendly. I think that just like many communities, it's easy to it's easy to talk about it. I don't know what actually happens. I'm not queer. So like I don't know what the experience of a queer person is, for example, at a show. I don't know personally. I do think the community strives increasingly to be more accessible, to be more inclusive. Um, but you're right that the core of this music is middle-class suburban white boys in Michigan, you know, in Midwest cities, in Philly, in DC, maybe in Long Island, in and they usually have day jobs, like the band is not there.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I don't know at the mall or restaurant. Um yeah, I uh another thing I wrote down that uh you said, Harley, was taste freezes at 33 years old.

SPEAKER_00:

That's like a narrative, that's like something I don't know who said that. You'd have to look up who can credit it, but somebody said that recently that taste tends to freeze around 33 and people have a hard time exploring new things, musically, whatever, after age 33. So I I don't know if that's true, but I can figure out a lot together.

SPEAKER_03:

I know that's not absolutely true.

SPEAKER_01:

It's not true for you, Kate. You've done a lot of things recently.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I mean, that would be kind of I mean I think though at 33 you do know what you like and what you don't like. Sure. And but that's not to say you shouldn't, you know, look at what you think you don't like. Right. Maybe you think you don't like horror movies, but you watch a horror movie and it's great. You know.

SPEAKER_01:

Um what what is your uh I I just want to know more personal things. What what was like some of your favorite uh shows that you've gone to? And why?

SPEAKER_00:

Local each year. Well, okay, to live in the city. Obviously, I live in the suburbs, but before I lived there, it was less accessible. Um now that I live close enough to go to these shows, um, my favorite is Excellency Fest, which is a festival that's actually held in Bay City, Michigan, which is as you guys know. Um Bay City has an underground all music scene, um, and they have a promoter, Excellency Prevent Present, and they do uh a festival every year and bring, I would say the emo bands to know are playing at Excellency Fest.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. Um When does this take place?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, is that summertime? I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's it's usually in August. And what's funny is it's at the the Masonic Temple in basic.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, yes, right.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Oh so they can open the doors.

SPEAKER_00:

We're arm's length, who is they they've been around since like 22 from Toronto, right? Toronto, Ontario. Um I would say they're aren't they Corey's favorite? That's Corey's favorite. Yeah, my husband's favorite of the Timo band. He's a really good sport about it. He's um he's really good about going with me. But uh Ben Quad played. Ben Quad's from Oklahoma City, and Oklahoma City historically is not one of the cities, right, that people think about when they think of emo. And they've come on the scene, they just put out an album like a couple of months ago, and are just blowing up. And they were I mean, the the technical talent uh on the instruments is is really amazing. Punk isn't known historically for being like the best guitar player. You know, you're playing power chords and you're you're just really focused on the energy, but I would say that currently the ability of some of the newer bands has really kind of blown me away. Like probably because they spent years in COVID just playing guitar.

SPEAKER_03:

What else they've got to do, right?

SPEAKER_00:

And then Marquette Michigan has some really amazing bands. Charmer is is a long kind of long tenure or so emo band that is from Marquette. That's been really, really fun to watch. And Casper Fight scene's from Marquette, they're really fun to watch. And they're doing it's because they're a because it's a college tone, or yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

I do think so, yeah. It's the same, you know, you get to know them, they're the same bands, they come to all the shows. And then in Ferndale, this they every summer they have a festival called Pug Fest. And I volunteered, I worked at it um this past year to help out. And uh a lot of bands come in and a lot of smaller bands, a lot of Grand Rapids and uh Kalamazoo bands come in. Saturdays at your place is like the kind of big Kalamazoo band that's kind of blowing up, and they are so fun. And I just they just played actually at the Crowfoot in Pontiac in November, and we got to go see them.

SPEAKER_03:

So I feel like my favorite ones are always the ones I was just at because I think why we're talking about your favorite bands and the and the festivals and such. Can you tell us how you feel about the community of emo?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I I think it's interesting because I'm older now. Um, you know, which is in in the the scene moves quickly. People age out, they go get jobs, they move on. And I feel like as someone who's now in my 30s, which sounds young in general, obviously, I'm older than the bands. I'm older. It's like going to see a sports, you know, going to college basketball game. You're like, I'm older than that. How did that happen? Um, and so I have the perspective of seeing these are, you know, young, young people who are striving to experience something real, and that matters all the time. A lot, uh, you know, I won't go into my you know spiel about capitalism and imperialism, but it's hard to feel things.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It's hard in the digital age to feel something real, to feel authentically connected to someone is hard. It takes work. I don't know if it always took work. I wasn't around. It takes work now. And so what I use what I see when I'm there is people brought together by something that means something to them that are striving to make meaning and experience something real. And that's what feels so good about it. And when I say that, it sounds culty, but a cult wants something from you, right? A cult needs you to do something for them, they want something, they don't want anything from you other than to be in community, and so that's where I was like, I wouldn't put it all the way to cult because then you just go home. Like, there's no ask, there's no, you need to do this, you need to change something about yourself. But that's also the downside. Emo lives in this, like, oh, I don't know what to do. I'm like, this sucks. It doesn't give an avenue forward, and that's like if I was gonna, you know, criticize it, which I absolutely you know hope you guys do.

SPEAKER_03:

It doesn't push you through dark, it lives more in the dark, in the uncertainty, in the like so it's not demanding an outcome from anybody, it's just there for your either enjoy it or yeah, hatred.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, nothing wrong with that. It's the being it's the moment. I think it's um reflective of the fact that life get some feedback there, but life is not tidy. Life is not completed, it's just it's just there and then just one day ends, and all you have are those moments. That's that's kind of what emo is, you know. Absolutely. Well that's how uh I can relate to it. Um because I try to think that my readers are smart enough to figure things out on their own and I don't have to explain everything. Like some writers that have to write a thousand pages, and then I always like to end a story where I feel it ends, and it's never tidy. I think that emo is like that, and I think that's one of the reasons I appreciate it. And I can see why people would bug people. They're like, come on, why are you all so pissed off? You know? What's the you know what's it's not all anger, but you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But the uncertainty and the inaction.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, and that would explain why the um the average female fan is between 13 and 19 years old. Yeah, because this is at the time when that's you know most prevalent.

SPEAKER_01:

I guess we've we've aged aged out of it, Kate.

SPEAKER_03:

We hardly hasn't aged out of it, so I listened to some and I some I liked and some I fast forward to it.

SPEAKER_01:

Good music is good music, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

People are very used to overproduced autotune. Like, even when you think there's not auto tune, there is a lot of it sounds really bad, and we're always laughing about like when they sound bad. I'm like, damn, that's real. I would sound bad too if I tried to convince them. And that's that's definitely a a kind of uh to the on to the e to an ear that's used to hearing things that are produced by robots, it can sound really bad.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. But really real. Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, Harley, you know, uh, my chemical romance is coming to uh I think they're playing in Co America in August. And I think I told you that when we were at Alice Kippers. Um, because they're playing with Iggy Pop.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_03:

Pop is their opening act, and I have actually thought about going just to go see Iggy.

SPEAKER_00:

Just to go see Iggy. That's that'd be awesome.

SPEAKER_03:

But maybe we should go.

SPEAKER_00:

That's a big place, though. It's a little too big. It's like going to see Taylor Swift. It's like I can't really see any like that's a lot of money for an experience. I we I spend most of my time in like the Sanctuary Detroit, which has a cap of like 300.

SPEAKER_03:

That's perfect.

SPEAKER_00:

So I think it's just not my preference, and so I don't usually go to the bigger ones like that. Um, I actually have a theme like them growmates, which is crazy. Um they just got too big.

SPEAKER_04:

They're too big, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I thought they broke up a few years ago.

SPEAKER_03:

And now they're getting back together and doing at least this gig. I don't know how many other ones.

SPEAKER_00:

They broke up, they got back together, but they didn't put out any new music.

SPEAKER_03:

And I'm like, okay, well that's just you know best stuff.

SPEAKER_01:

Best stuff.

SPEAKER_03:

Here's our best stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, they'll they'll I'm sure they'll knock it out of the park.

SPEAKER_03:

But oh America. Um what else should I think is that what you wanna add or that we missed, or any kind of email canon story. Yes, please do.

SPEAKER_00:

Long island, New York. Long Island was a big uh email hub at that time in in the early 2000s. Um there's a really popular, but this is hyperlocal, so like I'm well obviously I was eight, so I didn't, you know, the internet was still young. I wasn't necessarily going on. Yeah, it wasn't so uh national the way it is now, but um there's uh a really tight-knit group of artists, and uh one of them's name is Jesse Lacey, one of them's name is John Nolan. They're like best friends, they're not in a band together, but they're best friends. And something happens between these best friends that sends like a kind of ripple across Emo forever that I think the story is always worth telling. So Jesse Lacy's band is called Brand New.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And John Nolan and Anna Mozaro's band is called Taking Back Sunday.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, Taking Back Sunday is one of my favorites, so I'm biased in this story, which is how I friends, and that's fine. These two best friends experienced some sort of falling out. It is obviously not clear to anybody still to this day, but rumors are that you know somebody went out with someone's girlfriend, someone stole someone's girlfriend. Unclear.

SPEAKER_03:

It's always that, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

So yeah, there was a great friend betrayal between these two, Jesse and John. And uh in 2001, brand new releases a song about it. So this is your classic diss trap. This is maybe the first.

SPEAKER_03:

Maybe that's where Taylor got her ideas.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and you know, Kendrick and Drake and everybody's like I anyone in a community loves a diss track because it's so real. It's risky, it feels risky, which always makes you feel like it's real. So I uh just so just for some context, like Brand New is revered as like musical genius, innovative, poetic work. And then Taking Back Sunday is like anthemic, uh young focused, uh collective experience. They're both really kind of quintessential emo, but quite different in the way that they approach it. And so their disc track exchange is like one of the big kind of like emo stories of our community. So uh brand new puts out a disc track called 70 times seven. Do you guys know the 70 times 7 reference?

SPEAKER_03:

No, not a clue.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, 70 times 7 is a biblical reference.

SPEAKER_03:

That's why we don't know it.

SPEAKER_00:

I think it's in Matthew. Anyway, somebody asked Jesus, oh, like my friend betrayed me. Should I forgive them? And Jesus says, You should not forgive them seven times, but 70 times seven times. So, like the message of it is like you should always forgive, which is classic Jesus. Um, but this song is titled 70 times seven, but it is like I will never forgive you. And the lyrics are so like any emo kid will be like, Oh my god. So I'm just gonna read them to you if that's okay. Um so this is Jesse singing to John. Whoever betrayed who, we're not sure, but Jesse feels betrayed. He says, So is that what you call a getaway? Tell me what you got away with. I've seen more spine in jellyfish, I've seen more guts in 11-year-old kids. Have another drink and drive yourself home. I hope there's ice on all the roads. You think of me when you forget your seatbelt and again when your head goes through the windshield. Is that what you call tact? You're as subtle as a break in the small my back. So let's end this call and end this conversation. Is that what you call a getaway? Well, tell me what you got away with, because you left the phrase from the ties you severed when you said best friends means friends forever.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. That's brutal.

SPEAKER_03:

Every coach says that emo loves sports.

SPEAKER_00:

There are so many emo bands. American footballs.

SPEAKER_03:

That's because they're little white boys.

SPEAKER_00:

Whatever.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That's the ultimate like me. Like friend Raker?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. You guys are there. Oh man, oh man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

No one's no, like, there's no front around it because it's just this small, you're constantly waiting for the next album. And then what complicates it is that shortly after this, a lot of sexual misconduct allegations come out against Jesse from Brand New. They were more young, you know, they were more accessible. A lot about so he disappears and he's like, I'm wounded, I'm, you know, I'm blameless, and everyone's coming after me. And then it was like some pretty significant, which is another problem in the scene in general, is sexual misconduct. And Jeff was like, I'm coming back. And he's brand new has been playing shows again, but most people are like, I'm not going to or what happened. And Taking Back Sunday has, you know, dipped in their quality, but they're still around. You know, they're still around. But um, I always tell that story of like the best emo is like these moments, like you said, a very pointed moment about two friends or whatever they were not being friends anymore, and how we, as like the consumers of this art, are like want more of it, but like anyway, so I always uh have to tell that story.

SPEAKER_01:

It's a great story.

SPEAKER_03:

It's a great story because uh um because you wonder what what happened between them. And everybody likes a good breakup, whether it's friends or what uh or couples or or moms and dads and kids.

SPEAKER_01:

And they're saying shit that maybe we want. say to somebody that's and pissed us off.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. They're saying what maybe we want to say. And then I always wonder, are they faking it just to get to you know their popularity?

SPEAKER_01:

Who cares? It works. I love it. It's a story. I almost I almost respect it more if they planned it. You know what I mean? Like yeah heck yeah. That is art right there.

SPEAKER_03:

Like on the side.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah yeah yeah very cool. I like that yo hell yeah yeah yeah you are blue. Yeah that's very good.

SPEAKER_03:

Look in the mirror look in the mirror all right thanks for letting me oh heck yeah I don't think we have I don't think we have to ask you if you think they they're a hero or dick but with the end we always wrap it up do you think whatever is a hero or dick and I'm getting guessed you think it's a hero.

SPEAKER_00:

I really think it's both I all things I love I think are both.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah it's true we come up with that a lot yeah that or people or things do dickish things but they're overall a hero. Sure. And so I think any uh any genre of music that you want to listen to can be a hero to you. You know what I mean? Like whatever works for you is your hero.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah yeah I would say that it feels like they're heroes to me because they've helped me make meaning of my own life and that's what art does and I appreciate that. I'm grateful to them all these bands that have been around in my time on on this earth I'm very very grateful. So I guess I would say they're heroes. I do want to say that they're dicks just because I don't you know we have a problem in the community of gatekeeping I don't want other people to be like oh what is this thing like this is our thing but want to spread the good word I don't want to do that.

SPEAKER_03:

You don't want everybody to know of a secret place or the good thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah I get it you want to keep it your for you well I'm glad that's all right nobody's listening for that I'm glad that uh emo brought you to us so that's what I like this is very this is very cool.

SPEAKER_03:

I I learned a lot I do learn a lot I remember I said at the beginning of the show I'm here to learn.

SPEAKER_01:

I thought you said you wanted to be with me and do this podcast and hang out.

SPEAKER_03:

Damn it Kate I'm still here I do too um but yeah let's let's let Harley go and um thank you Harley for all your insight I really really appreciate it I will talk to you soon. Thanks Harley I'm going back to my regular job okay thank you exactly by shit that was probably the best episode we've had well Harley she know what are we doing Kate I don't know she should have the show I'm thinking we should maybe have a guest every time well does she know anything else I don't know we can bring her out for that too hey let's do one on women's studies you know again she's a very smart girl um you probably got to get going to another appointment here uh no I got nothing really usually you gotta go and I'm meeting up with a friend but I think she's not done Jimmy with Jimmy is that your friend no Jimmy that's my son's friend Jimmy eats world Jimmy I like those guys the middle that's good so what's the one about uh son of a bitch can't remember the name of it getting up in the morning throw your feet over the bed side of the bed blah blah it doesn't matter that's sublime nope it's definitely Jimmy your world it's um oh is it Jimmy okay uh whatever so for the for the fast five oh let's do that too I had some here but I didn't you don't have any don't even laugh I know so all I did was um I have five different kinds or genres of music uh like I said and I do believe this your genre and your genre if you like listening to the blues then go ahead and listen to the blues that if that works for you I'm asking you personally what you think of these.

SPEAKER_01:

Me? Oh okay if you think they're hero dicks because they're all heroes to someone right yeah okay how about punk hero I agree hero all around how about hip hop wow dead silence oh I feel like I have to say hero why I don't know because it's you don't have to like it I don't like hip hop okay but I do think it's pro pro it's heroic it's giving people a lot of voice I do I like old school hip hop so I'll say it's a hero.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay how about rock and roll come on but think of it some people don't like it I don't I I think classic rock and roll I mean okay it had its time and place but do I need to hear don't stop believing again do I need to hear it? No I'm done change that station done and I don't need to hear Stairway to heaven again it was good for its time I'm done I say hero but yeah hero but everything done play it's hero and done hero and done old country oh fuck um hero I say old school country hero new school country I don't know Merle Haggard you like Maryland I love Johnson I love the beginning of an old country song they always have these nice little intros pay attention crystal gale crystal gale has a beautiful voice the the don't it make my brown eyes blue the sister of Loretta Lynn who love Crystal Gale's hair was long it was very long maybe a little too long get it get a trimming I mean that she's still around she still has long hair she's probably playing a casino could be we'll have to look it up like Shania Twain then we is Shania Twain doing she's like a what do you call those people in casinos she has I think she has a residency at Las Vegas yeah she's like playing a casino is different from having a residency no she has a residency in Vegas Vegas yeah maybe we can get her on the show Shania wait which one anybody probably crystal gale i i think we should name one didn't she date burt reynolds uh I think you no but I think Tammy Wynette did Tammy Wynette people liked her too she was pretty powerful she was I got off track how about metal last one hero I say hero also I like metal do you have any metal albums albums you ever see Metallica I have are they good yeah I mean I know they're good but in concert yeah I went and saw them during the black album phase so that was like my favorite still and I I I enjoyed them very much. They came I remember Maple Ridge Elementary School on recess they came there they came and played in our gymnasium no uh I remember a couple kids man they loved metallic I had no idea who it was this one guy loved Kirk Hammett the guitar and he'd be like doing the air guitar with this Metallica shirt on oh man that's good stuff had a Metallica shirt and actually this is how long ago I went as well it was 34 years ago and I know that because it was just before Jenna was born she's gonna be 33 and uh it was at Castle Farms it was one of the last concerts there and it was my last concert there and then they changed over to now they do weddings in different venues. But it was a Bath and I and of thousands there were it wasn't a big venue but there were still a lot of other people and they were all teenage boys. No kidding we were like the only women there let alone the only ones 21 do a little headbanging we tried yeah we tried really hard they'll have a resonance no they're they'll always be large oh yeah yeah yeah I do like them and I respect them and I'm glad they're still around and I still like their new music too they just keep doing it that's what you're supposed to do.

SPEAKER_01:

Even if you don't listen to you who cares well you get this point in your career.

SPEAKER_03:

And so yeah like us if if nobody was listening to them would they still be playing probably yeah yeah who cares and so we've been on the air for three years. Three years three fourth season here yeah oh yeah no yeah season four episode one no you said four you have you've got notes you followed them we had in 2025 we had 818 minutes online or on air just whatever that's 22 episodes we did 12 eleven out of 12 months I think I was gone one of those months it would have been you yeah you you you have adventures 18 countries 93 cities the most popular Harlan Ohio no not ohio Iowa hey Harlan I love Iowa I really do I have been through it my wife lived there oh my son was born there really where Des Moines wait Ames he was born at Ames okay I wasn't there but no um I like Iowa I like Dubuque Dubuque I really do don't they have some good caves there or something they've got this awesome um ship museum or whatever the hell you call it the Mississippi something maritime museum that's where we need to go for our live show I'd go there let us know Harlan hey what uh country in Auckland New Zealand or something was on there yeah I didn't write down all the country New Zealand yeah New Zealand I'll take it thank you 391 downloads episode two was the most popular 106 I'll never forget it the cows oh the cows is that I'm telling you it was the cows cheese and cows that before we did our cracker eating and then uh Cassidy pointed out we didn't say how many Cassidy's always honest man so keep talking while I count what am I talking about?

SPEAKER_01:

Cassidy's was Joaquin Phoenix a hero or Dick I probably said he was a hero but you don't like him you don't like anybody you don't even like Chabby Chase I I don't but I will watch that that's coming out eh yeah I think it's out oh I watched that John Candy thing. Yeah well kind of while I was taking down the tree and crying I don't like Christmas leaving but that was pretty good kind of sappy she's still counting everybody 12 I don't know what she's counting so we had 17 heroes that's too many out of 22 heroes so we had five dicks that's it yeah but a couple are hero and dicks um let me just point out the dicks Roseanne Barr said why do we even give her the ear time I don't know she's gotta have some good to her ducks ducks we said there were dicks because that corkscrew penis that's enough that one actually got that was in the top three for downloads or most or whatever you call it. I'm surprised I I hear you say rapey raven own the place you got a corkscrew dick? I guess you can George Washington he doesn't even know corkscrew dick we should have said that we're gonna get taken by ice or something say shit like that the founding father we're saying is a dick that's really sad.

SPEAKER_03:

So um and the other one we couldn't decide was Stephen Hawking.

SPEAKER_01:

I feel bad about saying he was a dick.

SPEAKER_03:

You know why? Because he's handicapped and I'm sorry you're handicapped but he was kind of a dick.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you remember the episode of Seinfeld where George is at playing out sports pretending that he can't walk they think he can't walk and so he gets a rascal and then Jerry Seinfeld makes the joke that he's like what'd you do steal that from Stephen Hawking? I saw that episode yesterday and I thought about the that that our podcast episode and it you know it's it because people are disabled or veterans or whatever that doesn't mean they're not rude. Yeah people still can be assholes even if they have a disability or anything. I don't care who you are yeah just because you wear a priest robe doesn't make you good right that's very true that's very true.

SPEAKER_03:

All right well we've this is this is a long one coming back with a a bang and we thank again we thank Carly Yeah that was awesome such wealth of knowledge on emo and many other things so maybe we'll have her back. Trying to give her a squeak okay it's not working no it's it's too cool.

SPEAKER_01:

My duck my duck is because it's a rape look at that my little rapey duck there he goes thanks Carly all right well thanks everybody and uh oh yeah what's it's hero or dick2023 at gmail.com yeah and even on our um if you go to buzz sprout or wherever yeah buzz sprout yeah it's on other places too Spotify Amazon Apple but if you go to Buzzprout you can message us right from but uh buzzsprout it says text us well Doug said he tried it and it didn't work so don't lose that I guess email us and we'll nobody emails anymore we gotta think of something else letter you can write a letter and address it to 119 West Washington Avenue Alpina Michigan 49707 and we'll read your letter right here on the air and we'll get a goddamn t shirt made up and send it to you oh my gosh handwritten letter yes I'll do it a handwritten letter I do too okay I might write one so I get a t shirt all right everybody thanks by

Contributor

Kate & KJ

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