Shelter Work and Entrepreneurship w/Ashley Devine

A quick note - we do discuss the sensitive subject of behavioral euthanasia and euthanasia in general extensively in this episode.

In this episode, we dive deep into the world of animal shelter work and behavior training with, Ashley Devine from Mannered Misfits. 

Ashley offers an invaluable perspective from their six-year stint working in an animal shelter and their experience in the shelter's behavioral program. Their commitment to prioritizing mental health and creating a balance led them to start their own training business. 

We also delve into their experience in shelter work – compassion fatigue, burnout, and the daily stresses that come with it. The episode is a candid reflection on the trials and triumphs of an environment that demands a lot emotionally, yet often remains unseen unless one is directly involved. Ashley’s candid storytelling, interspersed with their infectious sense of humor, makes this episode a must-listen. They share their story and invaluable advice on maintaining mental health in stressful environments and the journey of entrepreneurship.

Get ready to laugh, learn and gain an insight into the world of animal shelters that will leave you with a new level of respect for the people dedicating their lives to it.

Where you can find Ashley:
@manneredmisfits_llc on Instagram
Mannered Misfits Dog Training on Facebook

Transcript

[00:00:07] Welcome back to The Leashed Mind Podcast, mental Health and Dog Training. I am your host, Mandy Boutelle. On today's episode, I have a conversation with Ashley Devine from Mannered Misfits. So before I even really dig into the episode too much and get into this intro, I do want to just put disclaimer out there that in this episode we do talk a lot about behavioral euthanasia and euthanasia in general. 

[00:00:32] If this is a topic, That you're just not ready to listen to right now because of how much we mentioned this. Totally understand. Save this for another time because it is a really good episode. So aside from that, we talk a lot about their extensive background in shelter work since, you know, Ashley worked in a shelter for about six years and then working with the behavioral program within the shelter before they decided to really [00:01:00] prioritize their mental health, take a step back and start their training business. 

[00:01:04] so this episode we really talk about. Starting your own business and the toll and excitement and mental health journey, it is in itself of starting a business. But then we also talk from the perspective of working at a shelter, the compassion fatigue, the burnout, and just. Figuring out ways to better prioritize yourself and your mental health. 

[00:01:25] Being in an environment that is very taxing and comes with a lot of stress and situations that, you know, we don't really hear about often if we don't have friends, colleagues that work in a shelter, we don't really know what they're experiencing. Um, I myself as big of a heart as I have for advocacy and training and behavior. 

[00:01:47] I have always steered clear of shelter work because I know that I would give it too much and it would lead to my detriment. So that's why I have avoided getting involved with shelters and volunteering because I care [00:02:00] way too much and I know I would burn out very quickly. So I, I always have a very, Deep admiration for those that do choose to get into shelter work because it's not an easy feat and it's not for the faint of heart. 

[00:02:13] It's a lot. And Ashley really just lays it all out there along with their fantastic attitude and sense of humor. So I'm not gonna explain too much because I do want you guys to listen to this episode. So let's get into it. 

[00:02:29] let's do this. I have Ashley Devine here with me from Mannered Misfits, L l c. Ashley, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast and talk about all the things, new business and shelter background, and just dig into it with you. So thank you for coming on. Yeah, I like, I will not lie. 

[00:02:47] Uh, when I got your email that you wanted to have me on, I was just like, oh my God. yeah. So I, I thank you so much for like creating this, this is a really cool thing that you're doing and I think that, um, a lot of people will benefit from like listening to [00:03:00] multiple stories. I'm so excited that I know you're an active listener, so I know that. You totally are someone that this really speaks to. You are a new trainer and I feel like this is just gonna help even more people understand that we need to prioritize our mental health in this job, in any career, but specifically this with how taxing it can be on a lot of us. 

[00:03:22] So for those that may not know you, may not follow you. Can you give us a quick, not that quick, but a background story of kinda how you got into training, where you first started with the shelters and kind of how you got to where you are right now? Yeah, absolutely. Um, so for those of you who don't know me, my name is Ashley Devine. 

[00:03:39] I'm a certified professional dog trainer, knowledge assessed. I'm Fear Free certified through the shelters program, through the Fear Free Program. My pronouns are they them. I like to call myself a. Pansexual, queirdo, alien, cowboy, um, just for like a little nice buffer when I talk to clients sometimes. 

[00:03:56] I love that I got started, [00:04:00] um, in training after I adopted, I think this is like nine years ago now, when I adopted my first dog, Layla, who, if you guys follow me on Instagram, you guys are all familiar with her. She's my old lady and my Instagram was actually her Instagram. I remember that first. Um, first, yep. 

[00:04:15] It was her Instagram first. And then when I started, apprenticing to become a dog trainer in the shelter, I had adopted my second dog who her name is Potato. So you guys, if you have followed me, you see how goofy and cute those two are. And, I. Really, really like to preface that they are both so different in their own way. 

[00:04:33] And that really helped me with my training. But I also come from a very religious background actually. And if you're watching this on YouTube and like looking at my house and myself, you can see that that worked out really well for me. I grew up, uh, in the Latter Day Saints Church. Oh wow. So LDS Mor. 

[00:04:52] Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So mental health is not a thing there. It's all about prayers. So [00:05:00] I had a lot of friends that grew up lds. Totally get that. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. So, after this episode comes out, if anyone ever wants to talk about that, I've got, you know, all the support for you because it's a hard thing to, uh, get outta right. 

[00:05:14] What I, what I will say about that is basically I didn't really like know what mental health was. And growing up I was always that quirky kid who something very clearly was not right with me. , and air quotes on that. Oh yeah. I was just that weird kid with like the leg twitch, but also like the random outbursts. 

[00:05:31] And I was not a nice kid. I would bully my, classmates. I was, I would get into fights. , and I always remember like kind of wondering, I'm like, what is wrong with me? And my mom was like, you're fine, you're fine. Nothing. We just need to go to church. And I'm like, peak nineties. Yep. Peak peak nineties, man. 

[00:05:49] And I think like, remembering that now, I'm like, oh man. Like I really was not right in the head. Right. So it was very early on that, one of my guidance counselors [00:06:00] told her like, your child has adhd and. My mom, she, Nope, nope, that's not a thing. That's not a thing. But, now, uh, being in my thirties, I actually didn't get like a full diagnosis until the very beginning of last year. 

[00:06:13] So the year same 2022, and started my, my medical, my med journey. But actually, like having that validation was so, made me feel so much better about, you know, the years I spent like not being able to regulate my, regulate my emotions. So I have a D H D with, complex anxiety and depression, and I have PTs d as well as, dyscalculia. 

[00:06:33] So, math for me, we, we do not see eye to eye man. You and I are just, we are in the same boat. We're vibing so hard. Yes. Oh my God. But I, I, I spent like 31 years of my life just being like, I, this is not a normal way of thinking. This is not a normal way to be and it really did take a, its toll on my job. 

[00:06:53] So, that's just kind of like my mental health history cuz I feel like it's important. It's important. Yes. When pertaining to Yeah. Yeah. But, um, [00:07:00] fast forward to me having one childhood dog. 

[00:07:02] So obviously I know dogs really well and I can do anything. Um, he was a Scottish Terrier. His name was Oliver. I have him tattooed on my body. God, like he was, my gosh, he was great. He had no behavioral issues. Um, he passed away at like 15. So then, long story short, my partner and I at the time decide that we're gonna get a dog and we go to the shelter and we walk like nine dogs that day. 

[00:07:23] And then we come across this dog who is. Covered in diarrhea. Basically, it turns out she was having seizures in her kennel and they just didn't realize it. Oh my God. She was getting bathed every day. She fenced, fought like hell the whole way out of her kennel. in the catch pen, like in the little kennel run that they have you in at most shelters. 

[00:07:42] She ignored us. She was like stressed, scratching, and just like pacing and like trying to dig out. And we were like, this one, this one, I want that one. Yeah, I know we want this one. We're gonna take it home. And uh, we named her Layla and then it started on this whole journey of, you know, like, oh, she's so great. 

[00:07:59] [00:08:00] She's just been sleeping like cuz. In the shelter, no one gets the appropriate amount of sleep or she, you never, never read it. Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. Like it can absolutely affect, affect the dog's behavior. So what started to happen from there? Um, without getting too much into it. Uh, so Layla, if you guys do follow me on my Instagram or really anything, um, Layla has an aggression history. 

[00:08:19] So she had territorial aggression. She was reactive to people coming into our home. She resource guarded, uh, her food and raised spaces from us. So if she was on the bed, she would growl at us if we would come in the room. she resource guarded, like we would get like a new papasan chair and it was hers. 

[00:08:36] She would jump in it and we would try to sit in it with her and she would be like, and we're like oh, stop it. And you know, cuz I'm 24 and I don't know what the hell I'm doing. Right. But I'm trying. And then, uh, she was reactive to dogs. She had really inappropriate play skills. She was not house trained. 

[00:08:52] she was aggressive towards children. Like, and we live, we live next to a daycare, so getting her out the door to go on a walk was hell I'm sure. [00:09:00] Cause she would just be growling and lunging and barking and like, and I want everyone to know that all, all trainers do start somewhere. I bought her a choke chain and a, and a flexi leash. 

[00:09:08] Like an extendable leash. So that was my first pieces of equipment I had Layla on. You were trying. Yeah. You were just grasping for anything. I was like, I need you to not pull and not react and this will help. So, and she also broke out of two of her snap like. Just common buckle collar to go after dogs in PetSmart. 

[00:09:25] Oh fuck. So we were so in over our heads and we were just, you know, trying like the advice of friends and what we thought was right. And, um, she bit me, she bit one of my other friends, she had snapped at multiple people at that point. She had not done any damage on any dogs. But, um, what happened was we were just having great days where like none of this, none of these things were occurring. 

[00:09:47] And then we were having not awesome days. And we waited about nine months before we reached out to someone who then became my, uh, mentor and supervisor. with that being said, we learned a lot. We learned that she was having seizures. She was not [00:10:00] just laying down on the ground and looking all quirky. 

[00:10:02] Nope. Those were seizures. She was having micro seizures. So, I then started to dedicate my time to her and her training. And just became obsessed with it and fell down this rabbit hole of like, positive reinforcement. I started fostering, I started volunteering, and at the time I was just in the middle of like having service industry jobs. 

[00:10:19] I was a server, I was a bartender. I was, you know, but I'd always loved dogs. so, you know, that's where we all start. We love dogs, right? And, and I think what ended up happening was I got really obsessed with like my fosters being so like, oh, they have behavioral needs and I'm gonna work on that too. 

[00:10:36] And then I was like, you know what? I really wanna get into this. And I started volunteering and like doing shelter play groups and then participating in any like evaluations. And mind you, shelter evaluations have really changed in the last so many years, right? Like, they're so irrelevant these days. but I was so fascinated. 

[00:10:52] I'm like, yep, I'm in, I'm in. Let's do this. So I became, An employee at my local Humane Society in 2017, after two years of fostering [00:11:00] and volunteering for them. And that is when I really started to like, just notice, um, I'm, the box just opened up for you. Oh, it really the whole veil drop. Cause I was like, wow, I know nothing. 

[00:11:12] But that was basically like how It's very humbling. Yeah. Oh, it's so humbling because it's like, yeah, you wanna walk dogs and like teach 'em how to sit, but like, no, the laundry has to get done. The kennels need to be cleaned. Right. Oh, and by the way, you have like 40 pounds of donations to move. So it's, it's so strenuous and it's so difficult. 

[00:11:31] But for me, I was just like, you know what? I really think that, like, this is the environment for me. And I was there for six years and just worked up. I did end up leaving that job at the beginning of this year, so January of 2023, I was out of there. 

[00:11:45] But yeah, so that is how I just kind of worked through, what my end goal always was, was to become a dog trainer. And then I got the opportunity to start apprenticing in 2018. I definitely got like, way too far deep in, into behavior [00:12:00] modification in a shelter environment. 

[00:12:01] And is that different? It is a hundred percent different. So, um, you and who behavior modification in a shelter environment, you can start a plan for a dog. So like, let's say you get a dog who is surrendered for, jumping the fence, right? And what you can do is, I mean, you can't really work with that dog in that environment cuz I mean all of our. 

[00:12:19] fences are really high and Right. It's one of, it's one of those things where it's like, you know, you can't correct this behavior, but you can really hope that the next person who takes this dog on will do that. By, um, the behavior waivers that we would send out with the adopters, we would have dogs who would be super comfortable in the shelter environment. 

[00:12:36] And I think the phrase, well, they're really great with me, really stuck with me. I have, I had had many difficult dogs who once they were out of the shelter, they were not the dog I thought they were. And it's because everything's different and the dog is the environment. Mm-hmm. The behavior suppression is very real in the shelter world. 

[00:12:56] So trying to even replicate any kind of [00:13:00] like real life scenario is difficult. Right? Like for a dog that has stranger danger, it's like, okay, well I guess we can like work on this in an office setting, but I mean, that's not gonna translate to a home environment when the dog is super comfortable. Right. 

[00:13:11] Well, and like there's always that rule of what is it Like? Is it the rule of three or rule of four? Mm-hmm. I can't remember that. They always say that it's like three hours, three days, three weeks, three months. But I'm sure that changes for so many situations. But it's you, the dog hasn't even gotten through that stage. 

[00:13:29] And then trying to have that cortisol come down and then get the training in when it's like you've never even witnessed the dog in that state. They're still in this heightened state. It's two different parallels. And trying to get to the root cause, I'm sure that's just beating your head against the wall trying to do it in a sense. 

[00:13:46] Absolutely. And I think that being there for so long, I saw a lot of behavior that I'm really grateful that I did because when the dog starts to exhibit this behavior, another thing is, uh, I've worked with dogs on the [00:14:00] farm who get transferred in from, you know, rural areas. Like that's one thing about Idaho is that everyone thinks it's like this big farm. 

[00:14:06] but I live in the, I live in the capital, so I live in Boise. Right. But I mean, if you drive 30 minutes, like on the highway, you're in the mountains, you're in like the sticks. And it's very difficult for people to kind of assume like, oh, well, I mean, there, there's plenty of rural space out there for these dogs, but when you try to bring these dogs into like suburbia, they're like, I don't know what a leash is. 

[00:14:25] What, why did you name me buddy? I don't know what the hell that is. So of course I'm gonna dig under the fence and try and get away. Where's my, you know, field I was roaming in. Yeah. Yeah. It's very, um, it's very different than what you would think would be like a, a typical dog who, you know, wants to put on a leash in a collar and go for a walk. 

[00:14:42] And now I think we have like this hyped up. Thing about dogs where we want adventure companions and we want dogs that will go to the dog bar and we want dogs that will go to friends' houses and we can have barbecues with a million resources around and there will be no fights. That got me in so much shit with Layla. 

[00:14:59] I [00:15:00] realized that not all dogs are cut out for those types of environments. Right. But it, it's very interesting to me that people, you know, assume that there are outlets for every single dog with every certain kind of behavior when it comes to adopting these animals out. 

[00:15:14] My head's just spinning from that. But it's, it's true. And, and I saw that so much in San Francisco cuz they'd pull from shelters all over California, you know, Chico, San Bernardino, like real more rural areas. Mm-hmm. And then they'd put them in San Francisco and I'm like, this talk has never experienced a city bus going by a lot of, you know, houseless people, you know, burritos on the street, crazy other dogs reacting like. 

[00:15:38] It's so over, it was overstimulating for me to be in that environment. Mm-hmm. So like witness these dogs coming in and having to experience this, it's like, well, yeah, no shit that they are freaking out and aggressive and reactive. Like, how would you feel moving your entire life and then being housed with these random people you do not know, putting their hands near your bowls and touching you and trying to dress you [00:16:00] like. 

[00:16:00] Yeah. Yeah. But we don't think that, we just never make that connection. For some reason. We don't. And I, I, I think one thing that I learned in the shelter world, but also in my business is that, Everybody is like, oh, it'll be like my last dog. And that's never the case. That is never the case. It'll, it'll 100% be like when we had muffins for 13 years and she loved everyone and everything, and now we have this dog who's trying to attack our children. 

[00:16:24] sorry for like the worst case scenario I pick up, but I, I really, I really do think that that's kind of like the mentality of some people. So that's kind of, the unfortunate case, I would say. I do also really think that there is a huge benefit for working with dogs like that though, because you totally step away from all this,  

[00:16:40] like, you need to walk on a loose leash, you need to learn how to sit. Like it's really, it betters you as a professional too. It 100% does I, it's expanding that view. Mm-hmm. But, uh, yeah, some of them were just really severe with their behavior. Some of them were unpredictable. We had a dog who we tried to find motivators for her, I think for two months. And [00:17:00] she never moved. She wouldn't eat in our presence. she didn't enjoy dogs. She would just try to make space for herself. 

[00:17:06] And that breaks my heart. It was sad. It was really sad, but you know, I think it really got my mentality of like, you know, I really need to. Focus on like this dog's genetics and learning history versus being like, oh, you'll love living in an hoa. Like, it sounds like, like I think that it really, I was like, okay, like what is the quality of life here? 

[00:17:30] And that is something I think, getting into, you know, working with some of these dogs, like what is their quality of life and what is the successful outcome for these dogs? So I, that was something, some hard lessons I had to learn, but like, Such normalization around like that trauma uhhuh. And it was just like, well, it's just another day. 

[00:17:49] And I think that that really started to drain me. Um, when I was, working my way through the channels. I had a really, not great diet of like Red Bull and [00:18:00] DoorDash. Oh, I'm sure. Like on fumes, just trying to make it day to day, like Oh yeah. And I like smoked a bunch of cigarettes and, I would still go out like drinking after work cuz I'm like, I can't take this. 

[00:18:12] And it was decompress. It was so hard. Like I, but it was so normalized. It was so normalized. It was just like, yeah. Mm-hmm. But I think that's also how it's that time and I feel like, you know, 2020 was really, I think that was a line of like, okay, shit needs to change like all over everywhere. And I think that was a point for a lot of us where we were just like, okay, how I've been living. 

[00:18:34] For how this long is not productive. People have been burying mental health and not prioritizing it for X amount of time. Like we have this stupid fucking hustle culture of we just gotta put our heads down and we'll move up when that is not the fucking case. Like ever a hundred percent and being in the shelter world will really change your view about, how [00:19:00] much like you can really like save them all. And I say that in air quotes because that is something that really like upsets me. I do my damnedest to make sure that every client has a really realistic expectation in my business because of my shelter perspective, which is something I'm really glad I have because. 

[00:19:19] There are so many, like, um, so the last two or three years I was there, we were doing a process of managed intake. And what that looks like in some shelters is, people have to make appointments. , it's different for if the animal was postop from us, X, Y, Z, but they would have to make appointments to surrender their animals and they would be able to provide personality profiles. 

[00:19:39] I was on the behavior team for the last two years. I was there. I was, , yeah, I was a dog trainer at that point. I was, uh, taking small amounts of clients. Like at the very end of 2020, it was like, okay, like you can start to do the client thing. You can teach classes, like, get out there, Ashley. And I'm like, you're like a wizard away. 

[00:19:56] Like, okay. I'm like, God, I really hope that people like my [00:20:00] disassociative humor. But I, I really, I really, really remember feeling like, At what point is this normal? Because I really did kind of start to feel like having to start your day off with like a really great adoption then end it euthanizing animals. 

[00:20:17] Right. Was just, was just like, okay. And there's like, there's so those polar opposite ends that you don't have control over, but you have to experience it. Well in the shelter world we talk about how important it is, for decompression time for the animals that are into your home and all these things, the employees and the staff. 

[00:20:35] And this goes for every aspect of the shelter world. We do not get to decompression time at all. No. And I had a schedule where it was, I was working from 7:00 AM to 7:30 PM four days a week. Um, because I would work my normal job and then I would go and like teach classes after work. and then I, yeah, and I, it was just like, Hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle, let's go. 

[00:20:57] And then like, I kept moving up the [00:21:00] channels and what I started to realize over time, uh, was just like, you know, maybe with like the whole, I guess like shelter culture is that it will teach you so much about behavior and about yourself. uh, with the managed intake, what it was is, uh, my department's job to call and get more information on the dog. 

[00:21:18] And sometimes it was just asking questions. Sometimes it was just like, oh, he, he doesn't like, cuz there's almost only so much information that you can get in wording, right? It's really working through all the nuances of everything. Right. And also I don't expect, normal staff who have regular behavior knowledge to know, to know what kind of questions to ask and. 

[00:21:38] That I think was the draining factor for me because I ended up getting saddled with a lot of those things, in the summer of 2021 when I broke my knee. So, oh shit. Yep. And I, it was like, well, I can't handle dogs, I can't teach classes, I can't do any of these things. Um, I am super depressed, but hey, do you wanna work at the front desk and get yelled [00:22:00] at and answer phones? 

[00:22:01] And I, it was so sad. And that's when we started this manage intake process. And I would be talking to people at the front desk and I'm like, hobbling over to them on crutches while they're sobbing cuz their aggressive dog is muzzled in the lobby. And I'm like, yeah, so how long have you had so and so? And it's like, oh, she just, uh, like attacked my child, my child's er. 

[00:22:19] And it was things like that that were just so day to day. And I, I worked really closely with animal control, and having to see some of the things that they had to experience also, but also having to like even see that. So it really got to this point of like normalizing that trauma and Oh God, like, yeah, and also like care and like trying to empathize with people and like understand where they're coming from and, and not judge them. 

[00:22:43] Yeah. And not ju totally not judge them. And also be like, because like the animal industry is full of so much shit, it's like there's nothing regulated it. Yeah, like I, I think it was the episode you did with Melania de Martini. but she talked about how like the Google search for like separation anxiety was so [00:23:00] high and it's stuff like that where I'm like, yeah, people don't know any better. 

[00:23:03] Like I was doing the same shit with Layla. I'm like, why is my dog aggressive? Like Google just trying to get answers. Yeah. Yeah. So it was trying to come from an empathetic place and then just taking all of that shit home with me every day. And there it was. It was really hard and, but it was so like, oh, here we are again today at work. 

[00:23:22] Like, you know, and you never know what that day is gonna bring you. You can think it's gonna be right. It's so unpredictable. Yeah. In my last year of being able to be a functional human being and like work with dogs and do all these things, My clients and like my classes were my way of escaping because that was when I got to see dogs out of the shelter. 

[00:23:40] but I do really miss some of like the aspects of sheltering I do. I, I think that, you know, prepping enrichment like for two hours and like getting all dirty was something that I really miss doing. And like, I still do it for my dogs, but I'm like, oh, this is, it's not the same. I'm like, there's only six Licki- mats here. 

[00:23:57] Like, oh, this should be 45 Kongs. Like, [00:24:00] like just, and like putting on a podcast or like some music and just like zone it out and like Right. You know, prepping that to make sure that like those shelter dogs get their needs met. But I think it was when I started to, you know, like get farther into, you know, like the aspects of handling and how to keep yourself safe is when I was like, this shit's real. 

[00:24:19] And some of it is kind of like, Some of it's a little traumatic and there are still some times where I feel it kind of in my body. I think that some of the handling I haven't I've had to do is I, I think like when like the force free stuff started to kind of happen, I was like, am I force free? 

[00:24:33] Because there have been some times where I'm like, oh dude. Yes. Yeah. It's a, it's a matter of my own safety. I it's important you say that cuz I think a lot of times with shelters specifically, you guys need to just keep your safety in mind and sometimes you have to act quick and maybe it's not very force free seeming. 

[00:24:50] And then you question like, am I force free? Do I know what I'm doing? Am I a piece of shit? Like, and that's so not what the, it's even about. In that moment. Yeah. Yeah. And I [00:25:00] think for me, um, but at least like the last year or so, uh, was probably the first year I didn't have to use a control stick, which I was kind of proud of in being experienced in my own handling. 

[00:25:10] I, I mean I had to use a slip lead, which is like the, the like the medium salsa in the, I love that. That's a good way to put it. We can use, we can use the control stick, you know, or like, which is the hot SALs? Or we can like use it's like the lesser of two twos. Yeah. Because yeah, my slip lead was my daily tool. 

[00:25:28] It's like we can't call her every single dog that comes into the shelter. It's not a tool that I use now or recommend, um, for my clients, but, you know, it's like, it's the most Lima way to get a dog outta their kennel that's terrified. Right. and it's not like you're using it for changing a behavior. 

[00:25:42] It's to escort them out of a situation. It's not like, oh, I'm gonna choke you up until you listen to me. Totally. And that's the thing with that, it's completely different context. Yeah. And um, I had to get really savvy with like some of those like, defensive aspects in the shelter where you have to literally [00:26:00] hold the dog away from you because they're literally climbing up the right, they're snapping in your face. 

[00:26:04] and yeah, it's choking the dog, but it's also, I I ha I enjoy having a face. Yeah. And all your fingers. Yeah. And then I would just go home and kind of like sit and just like stare and how do you not like Right. Like how do you take that, how do you, and, and process that. I'm sure you didn't and it just soaked in and you absorbed it all like a sponge. 

[00:26:24] with all of that and you know, let's call it what it is, it's trauma. and I'm sure you have PTSD from it cuz how could you not? That is a very traumatic, a situation to be in for that long, but Right. With all of that and, and deciding like, you know what, I, I wanna keep doing this, but I wanna do the behavior stuff and let's actually go start a business. 

[00:26:45] I'm curious when you just were like, all right, I, I wanna leave the shelter stuff behind and really move on to another way I can help animals in a way that isn't going to add to my detriment. Mm-hmm. When did you kind of have that moment where you're like, [00:27:00] all right, this is, this needs to happen for me? 

[00:27:02] So it was shortly after, um, and if you have been following me on social media, you know that there was like a good seven months of my life that were just like a. It was kind of like that never ending car crash, or just that never ending, like season of a show where you're like, why isn't this ending? 

[00:27:17] This is terrible. Right. I broke my knee. I had to have knee surgery. I, I fully, fully transparency, um, because of all my injury stuff, I still tried to take my certified professional dog trainer exam and I didn't pass the first time. Oh my God. And, and I also, mind you, I have AD H D and I'm like, I can study for this. 

[00:27:35] And I, I went in there on, sometimes that works for us. Sometimes it does. And I, I felt like, wow, I like this fucking sucks. Um, but after my knee surgery I was like, okay, new year, new me, em. And then a few months into that I got hit by a gravel truck, like a Mack truck, and it totaled my car. it. Yeah, I had like internal bruising. 

[00:27:57] Um, potato was in the car with me, unfortunately, so that [00:28:00] was a whole other thing. Oh my God. Um, and then a month later I found out I had to move. So that's how it happens though. It always happens like a certain amount. They just stack up and you're like, I get nothing else now after this. I know after my move I was looking around and I'm like, I swear to God, I don't, just don't, I'm like, I'm, let me breathe. 

[00:28:18] I'm like, I went and got on the meds. Like I, I'm taking better care of myself. I'm eating my vegetables and drinking my water. Like please leave me alone, like for like two seconds. But, I was really like, I was not in a good place. And I think after, , some, how could you be like, yeah, some relationship issues that started happening with me and some of like my coworkers and just, the overall internal dynamic of like the people aspect of the shelter. 

[00:28:41] Because I think that's one thing that people are like, oh, we, we wanna work with dogs because we don't like people. No. In the shelter world, you will deal with many different personalities and some of them have been there longer than you and it shows. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I think when I was like, last year, I'm like, you know what? 

[00:28:56] I'm gonna take that test again and I'm gonna pass it and [00:29:00] I'm gonna do it for me. So I got that done. I passed that exam and I'm like, all right, time to start on a plan. And it took me so long to say, I am going to leave my job at the shelter. Out loud. I don't think I said it until like October of last year, and the first person I said it to was my therapist. 

[00:29:19] And like nobody knew, like, no. Everybody was just like, why was that? Were you, is it like you didn't wanna give it that power yet? Yes. And I was also fucking terrified because that's a big move. I had been doing a lot. Scary. Mm-hmm. I was doing a ton of self gaslighting where I did not feel like I was going to be successful without my mentor At the time he taught me everything. 

[00:29:39] it became very clear that our relationship was different and I'm like, you know what? I feel like things have changed and I just need to move on. And, but I was struggling because of a lot of like the just trauma and like, I'm like, am I gonna be okay? Is anyone gonna like me? Like, am I gonna get enough clients? 

[00:29:56] I think one thing that thankfully has worked out for me in where I live is [00:30:00] because I have lived here my whole life, so I know a lot of people, so that has worked in my favor. But, um, with that being said, it was not until I think the holiday season when I had a week of manage intake phone calls, and I did, I think 12 of them that week. 

[00:30:17] And they all ended in. Recommending behavioral euthanasia. Fuck. And I was like, that's so common though. And I was like, fuck this, I'm done. I tried to bring it up in a staff meeting and I was told, well, this is our job. And so I was like, double fuck this. And then I was told that, you know, I was making it about myself and I'm like, you know what? 

[00:30:36] It, it's okay if people wanna continue to have this mindset, but for me, this is so detrimental to me and how I'm acting and how I am. Like I stopped walking my dogs. I stopped doing things I love, it was so difficult to like, get out of bed Right. And go to work because I'm like, well, another day of this. 

[00:30:54] And I felt like I had to start just thinking about me. And I mean, it does make me sad [00:31:00] to think about like, some of the things that I'm not able to do anymore, but Right. I'm also, um, I, and I didn't even, uh, full transparency. I did not finish my last two weeks of work. I was like, I can't do it anymore. Oh, I'm one of those, I don't give two weeks. 

[00:31:14] I, I'm done. I'm done. Yeah. And usually when that happens, the business or job I'm leaving doesn't deserve my last two weeks. So, you know, my biggest thing, I think when I was leaving is that it was already being treated as if I was not there anymore. So I'm like, all right, all right. Peace. I'm good. I'm good. 

[00:31:30] Yeah. And I, it was important for me to make sure a couple of people were, um, set up for success before I left. And I made, I made sure by my damnedest that I did that for lunch. You can do so much. Can. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I didn't want to burn all these bridges, but I think when I was putting in my two weeks, it was very much like, oh, okay. 

[00:31:47] I make ship. Think there is, yeah. I'm jumping ship. And they were just like, oh, okay. And then I realized like, oh, we're all replaceable. Okay, bye. Like, I was there for six years, didn't get a car. No, like, Well, goodbye. I got a lot of like tears from people that were like, I [00:32:00] can't believe you're leaving. And I'm like, yeah, me either. 

[00:32:02] Like, it was like the last day I was there, I helped euthanize three dogs. Fuck. Because that probably people help had to be the final thing for you. Just like, I don't have to endure this again. Mm-hmm. And I was just like, you know what, it's my last day we're short staffed cuz we always were in the last year I was there and I was like, I'm done. 

[00:32:21] And I remember just being like, because another thing I did too was I got, um, my euthanasia certification. So I was doing euthanasia and, um, I, there were so many things that were just like normalized. There was actually one time where I was out with a friend who, I, she very much reminds me of me when I was her age. 

[00:32:41] But we were out with, my partner just having drinks and talking and her and I were talking about, just like the dogs that we had to euthanize and like how much we loved them and how we wanted to be there for them. 

[00:32:53] And I look over at my partner and he's crying and we're both like, oh, are you okay? Because we are [00:33:00] so desensitized to it, desensitized to that shit. And I was like, that's when I, and that was during the weeks of like, I think like my final days there and I was just like, holy fuck. Like I am not well in this moment. 

[00:33:14] So I think that was the right call to leave. And I still have like remnants. Uh, my first, I call him my problem child. He is not a problem child. He is just unfortunately the product of um, you know, not great genetics, socializing, genetic, and yeah. And genetics and you know, like not. he was a five month old St. 

[00:33:31] Bernard, Husky mi I don't know, something. Um, his name was Tate. He was a beautiful dog and he was five months old when he went to bite quarantine. because he, his family had been grabbing his tail when he was chasing the cat. And he finally turned around and was like, I'm done. So, yeah, it was a level three bite, if you're familiar with the Dr. 

[00:33:47] Ian Dun Dunbar Bite Scale, just a puncture on the hand. but I, for whatever reason, just latched onto this dog. And I think that was the first dog that I was like, he loves me, like, I'm gonna help him. I'm gonna fix [00:34:00] him. Like it's gonna be great. And then it kind of spiraled from there. And like, what was really hard was that I fostered him and he was so good. 

[00:34:08] But very nervous of people, primarily men because who isn't, um, in this world. 

[00:34:12] Right. But I do, I do think that, You know, having dogs as like his reinforcer was so great for him. And then like he and I just really bonded, but he did not show well on the adoption floor. He was at the back of his kennel, cowering Rowling, like not doing well. and what was presented to me was that what we'll send him to, the inmate program, which is where, um, which was an old program we used to have before the pandemic where you would, we would send the dogs to the inmates and they would train them. 

[00:34:38] And, um, the director of that program at the time and I were close and I was like, please make sure that he goes with someone that is very good with shy dogs. And she was like, absolutely. And she did take that seriously. And that's something I'm grateful to her for doing. But I got updates from the prison and they were not good. 

[00:34:56] He started displaying a lot more, idiopathic aggression. So [00:35:00] like, he would be soliciting for attention and then turning around and just biting the hand of the trainer and. almost breaking skin. he would growl at people who he had seen before, including the cellmate of the trainer. 

[00:35:11] there were so many other things that happened and, uh, it was, it got to a point where he became so severely, like, unpredictable that they pulled me into the office and they were like, we cannot place Tate safely. So they gave me the option of, well, we can, have him go back to foster with you because I know he did well or we'll have to consider behavioral euthanasia for him. 

[00:35:32] And that's when I backpedaled a lot. Whenever he was around my friend, I always had him dragging a leash to make sure there was a layer of management in case he got uncomfortable and I needed to grab him. He never got a hundred percent comfortable with my roommate, who was a man at the time. And I was already doing so many preventative things to make sure that this dog did not rehearse his bite history. 

[00:35:52] And by the time, He was outta that program. He was nine months old and fuck. So nine months old, adolescent with a bite history and [00:36:00] all of that. Your beginning experience to life. Yeah. And hoping to be like, all right, normal person who wants a nice looking dog. Like he had bi colored eyes, he had one brown eye, one blue eye. 

[00:36:10] Like him and Layla loved each other like they would play all the time. And I remember being like, it is not fair to me to bring this dog home if the other person that lives with me is not safe. And I know that you had talked about your previous dog Pip and how you could leave the house and as a social 20 something, I'm like, that's not something I'm willing to sacrifice. 

[00:36:31] Because also he was a big ass dog by the time he was nine months and he was only gonna get bigger. So, um, I agreed with the decision to euthanize him and I was there for that. And after that it kind of started this spiral of like, Hoping these dogs that liked me would make it outta the shelter. And some of them did and some of them didn't. 

[00:36:50] I, and I think that that was something that hit me pretty hard was, uh, seeing, and like another thing was seeing some of them like go out and be like, this is the home. This is it. And then they would [00:37:00] come back and I'm like, so that also can lead to a lot of burnout in the shelter environment because it's just like you, you keep seeing them go through it and you're just like hoping every time it's gonna stick. 

[00:37:10] But the likeliness of it working every time it happens is a little less each time. Well, and, um, being, uh, pushed in and out of the shelter environment, honestly, like it, the dogs get no time to decompress. Um, their behavior withers so much. on my local Humane Society's website right now, because I got the bug, I looked and I was just like, you know, I'm just gonna see who's on there. 

[00:37:31] There is a dog on there right now who has been in and out of the shelter. 10 times since I was employed there. Yeah. And I am just like, and I'm just staring and I'm like, are you kidding me? But then I'm also like, you know what? This is why I don't need to look at these things because it's good confirmation. 

[00:37:47] Yeah. Yes. And it's like, but those are boundaries you have to set up for yourself when you do these things. It's really, it's, it's a struggle. It's really like, you know, when a dog gets adopted and you, like, for me, I was like, here's my [00:38:00] business card, here's my extension. You call me if you have any issues. 

[00:38:03] And sometimes I'd be like, you know what? No news is good news. Yeah. And I would just, yep. And I would just let, let it go, go out. And the staff, um, when I became a little bit more like senior, I guess is the word for, for it. Excuse me. My staff would be like, I wonder how like so-and-so's doing. And I'm like, I'm, I'm sure they're great. 

[00:38:19] I'm sure that they're wonderful if we haven't heard anything. Yeah. Yeah. And then I would try to give them a little bit of like positive reinforcement. if I did get a client who had adopted a shelter dog and they signed them up for a class or they were a private client of mine, that's huge. And be like, yeah. 

[00:38:34] And I'll be like, Hey, remember so-and-so, like their, um, new dog guardian reached out to me like, we're gonna do training. And so like, but then I also felt like I was trying to prepare them for the initial burnout that they're gonna experience because like the turnover at that job is also another thing that's just constant. 

[00:38:51] And, A lot of people get into it because they love dogs. And then on their first day they'll see a really severe dog fight, or they'll be like, oh, I really like [00:39:00] this dog in the kennel. And that dog is on the euthanasia list for the day. And it's just a constant cycle of those same things. before I left, this might enr you, um, but I'm gonna bring it up. 

[00:39:11] Uh, before I left the organization, as of 2023, was gonna give all the employees one mental health day paid. 

[00:39:18] Just one. Just one. That's all you know you need. That's what the fuck. What, what the fuck? Well, okay, so I think, yeah, on that note, let's talk about your mental health with your business and how you were able to prioritize that. Cuz I'm curious, just after experiencing all of this and the toll on your mental health, when you went into setting up your business mm-hmm. 

[00:39:43] Were you just very firm of like, all right, we gotta set this up in a way where this really aids my mental health because you already know where it could go if you didn't do that. so was there a point where you were just like, I need to have these boundaries, like from the get go, like when you were approaching starting your business, were [00:40:00] you already kind of thinking of ways to set that up for yourself? 

[00:40:03] Yes and no. So, um, I'm also glad that I've been listening to this podcast because guess what I did, I deleted my work email off. I, Hey, because, I thought when I, so. When I initially, was at the shelter, I ran our whole training program, all of the correspondence. I was in charge of like so many. And that's another thing too, about like being in the shelter, you wear so many different hats. 

[00:40:24] It's just like, oh, you can help with this too, right? And I'm like, totally. But like inside, I'm screaming internally. So when I finally was like, okay, I need to leave. I'm just gonna see how this goes, fingers crossed, and just hope for the best. So I thought I was gonna like, go into it, like hard boundaries. 

[00:40:42] Like, I'm not gonna check my email past 4:00 PM and like, that did not happen because like, not when you're first starting and you need clients. And another thing too is that I was planning on taking a very, a long break. I was not going to start my business as soon as I did because I had let some of my clients know, just in the, I [00:41:00] didn't send out like a big email and like go rogue and be like, I'm out of here. 

[00:41:03] Like, I'm jumping shit. Follow me. Like become. Become a mannered misfit with me. and so I had seen some clients like, just in passing, um, I run into a few of them at the store and they're like, oh my God, I've been trying to find you since you left because I don't, I wanna work with you. And I'm like, that makes me happy. 

[00:41:19] But that's awesome. I was trying to like, take some time to just like be air force. That transitional Yeah, like fun employed and like go to the skate park during the day and like, you know, like sleep in until noon, which does not happen, but stay in bed until noon and like still your cup back up. Yeah. 

[00:41:37] Yeah. Because my cup was like empty and spilled out all of the floor and the cup was cracked, like cracked and had a leak and was draining. Yeah. I'm like, I'm trying to like glue this cup back together. Like, oh my God, I am so fucked up from this job I had and. Then I started getting these really reaffirming texts. 

[00:41:54] And I think one big thing I'm really grateful for about this platform is how fucking supportive [00:42:00] everybody was because I felt so alone. Like I got reached out to by like people that I've idolized forever, about, you know, like doing my business and like being so supportive. Like, um, Juliana de Williams of JW reached out to me and was just like, yeah. 

[00:42:15] And, , Karishma Warr, they're fucking wonderful. Calm Canine. Yes. I, so all these people that I'm like idolizing and I'm just like, but they see what you're doing. Yeah. And they know they've been there. And one person I really spoke with, um, that like it meant the world to me was, um, Emily from Wild but Hurt Dogs in Canada. 

[00:42:34] And she told me about her experience of being a behavior department manager in a shelter for nine years. And that's when I was like, Oh my God, thank you. Like, thank you for that. I needed to hear that because once you're out of the shelter, you think that like, you're gonna go into life like hardcore, like no more looking at itself. 

[00:42:50] Full steam ahead. Yeah. Yeah. Full steam ahead. Like, I am prioritizing me. Damn it. And then it was all of a sudden I was getting these really reaffirming texts of like, congratulations on [00:43:00] starting your business. And then it was like, but can we get in with you now because we would love to. And I'm like, you know what? 

[00:43:06] Sure. And my, my sweet friend was just like, do you have a logo? I'm like, dude, I don't have anything. I don't even have, like, I, I had a business name. That was it. And I was just like, fingers crossed. And I had no content. I had like some Instagram content. I had to delete a lot of stuff from the shelter because I didn't wanna use anything where I was wearing a staff shirt. 

[00:43:24] Understandable. And, um, yeah. Yeah. Just for, you know, my own, like, I don't wanna burn that voice. You wanna break away from it too and start off clean on your own. Exactly. So I very much was just like, okay, I can do this. So my friend was like, boom, here's your logo. And it was like made on Canva in five minutes. 

[00:43:40] And I'm like, awesome, thank you. And then I'm like, and then I'm like, how do I schedule people? And someone's like, get Calendly. I'm like, perfect. So I'm literally just flying by the seat of my pants. And then that's when the A D H D sets in and I'm just like, oh God. And I'm like, okay. Like okay, I have to make all these videos and I have to film. 

[00:43:58] And I would be sitting [00:44:00] here and I would start crying cuz I'm like, can't. Hi. Yeah, yeah. What's up? Hey. Hello. Have your, how's that? Yeah. Staring at your like Excel spreadsheet that you can't make cuz you're so overwhelmed and Oh my God, it was so hard. I know that feeling. Yes. And, but I felt, I started to feel so much pressure. 

[00:44:17] I'm like, the people need me, but then. They're fine. Like they need you, but like they don't want you to, you know, throw yourself over the bridge trying to figure it out like they need you. Yes. But like get your things in order and then they will be ready when you are ready. Yes. And I think it's hard to think in that moment cuz you just get so excited and you wanna help them and get going and, but you're like, oh wait, I'm still burnt out. 

[00:44:39] Yes. So that was something I had to start learning really quickly. Um, one thing was that my email notifications were always on. Yeah. And I was doing that. I was like, oh, there's totally stuff I could do today. Like I need to do, the, I need to like make my content okay. And like I'll sit down and do that, but then I would end up being like, how to rip out my own, yeah. 

[00:44:59] My own [00:45:00] baseboard heaters. Like, wait, why am I looking at that? No, back to the content. Okay. And just like, oh my God. Yes. Beating myself up. Cuz there was, to full, full disclosure, there was a day where I'm like, fuck this. And I like ripped out my baseboard heaters cuz I'm like, I can't take this paper. Oh hey. 

[00:45:13] Yeah. I feel that I'm in a fixer upper. Yeah. And, but now here we are. I'm four months in. So I would say that mannered misfits, Um, the birthday for it is in January, so I'm, oh my God. I'm still very much like a, as you said earlier, my bus, my business is in utero. I know that Spark bitch had said like, we're still a baby, we're four years old. 

[00:45:32] I'm like, I'm like four months old and I'm just like, I don't even like know how to like move my fingers yet, but I, I think what really helped me and my mental health was knowing when I am leading myself into burnout and knowing when shit is, like, when I'm like kicking my ass about getting out of bed at 7:00 AM to work out. 

[00:45:50] Like why, why do I need to do that at 7:00 AM What is so important? I set my own schedule now. Make, yes. It's hard though to break out of that. yeah. And like, you know, [00:46:00] really beating myself up about like, oh my God, I didn't get any of my videos edited today. Because I took the dogs on a walk. Like how fucking they're you? 

[00:46:07] Horrible person. Yeah. Yeah. So I was doing a lot of self-sabotaging at first, and now I'm like, you know what? That person who just um, dmd me on Instagram about trading, they can wait. They can wait until tomorrow. Yes. Same with my friends who text me occasionally and like, th this is 100% like not a dig at them. 

[00:46:23] Cuz I do have friends that are clients, which makes me feel really good that they trust me enough to like, you know, prioritize their dogs, like behavior modification journey. Right. One thing I thought was really cool is that they're like, yeah, no, I just wanted to share this with you. I don't expect you to respond to me right away. 

[00:46:38] And I'm like, thank you. So I think that stuff like that is positive reinforcement for me without burning myself out. So now, now that we're a few months in, um, because after I. After I like got my business insurance and got my l l c, it was like, let's go like, get content. Like I'm, I am here. And I was getting like floods of people who were like, [00:47:00] oh, hey. 

[00:47:00] And then I, I had clients that I had at the shelter Google searching me and. Like stuff like that because they were like, oh my god, Ashley's off. So exciting. Yeah. Like Ashley's off the website, like, where did they go? And then they were trying to find me and like, that meant the world for me, that has to feel so good knowing that like they needed you, you provided so much value mm-hmm. 

[00:47:20] To their lives that they're like, we gotta find them. And also I think being able to offer, um, the shelter perspective to some clients, right? And like offer that realism to them, um, when they are, which is why all my consultations are virtual. Like, I need to have a conversation with you and get to like the nitty gritty of what is going on and like, what is going to be best for you. 

[00:47:39] And, cause I think this has only happened one time, but about 15 minutes into that conversation I started talking about how the prognosis of this dog is poor just based on like some of the aggression history. And I think that that was, Something I wouldn't have had, had I not had so many conversations about behavioral euthanasia. 

[00:47:58] And whereas it led me to such [00:48:00] burnout, I was so grateful that I was able to give these people some peace of mind and some grace and some empathy from someone who has been there. And so that meant the absolute world me that I was able to do that for them because, you know, it was intra household dog aggression. 

[00:48:15] It was complex medical issues, it was occasional idiopathic aggression. And I was like, this is just not safe. So I, I think that giving them that like, you know, empathy and like keeping that conversation open of like this, from a trainer perspective, the realism, it, it's pretty poor. Like it would've been, you know, baby, double baby gates anchored into every doorway it would have been. 

[00:48:38] Um, and the dog also had containment anxiety cuz he couldn't crater So there goes one layer of management I can't use, and complete separation from the other dogs. And also dragging a leash in the house in case she decided to start stabbing. And, and it was just so many things where I'm like, if I did not have that experience that I did in my career, you wouldn't know how to tackle that. 

[00:48:58] I wouldn't. And I was really grateful I [00:49:00] had that. So when I started my business, um, I definitely did some things for my mental health. One of those things being was I unfollowed, my previous organization's social media pages because I, I just had to, I, my work email is not on my phone anymore. It just became too much. 

[00:49:15] I now just have my Google calendar and just so that's what I can see for the day. And like I, cuz I need to pull up people's addresses when I'm out. Right. You have to reference it. Yeah. Yeah. And I, Try my hardest not to talk about work with like my friends. Um, it's hard. It takes a little time. Even like when my, my, when my partner and I first see, started seeing each other, his dog would do some like random reactive behaviors and seeing the way that he handled it, I just had to be like, Ashley, you're not working right now. 

[00:49:44] Just, yep. And then I waited for him to kind of bridge that gap of like, so what else could I do here? And I'm like, well, I'm glad you asked, but I'm also just like, I'm just trying to exist as a person because, um, I also like to do things that I break up into my day. Like I will be like, oh, I have a [00:50:00] free morning. So one thing I've been doing lately, and I really love it. I don't set an alarm if I don't have anything in the morning. Yes. Like if I don't have, if all my stuff is in the afternoon, if I am caught up on clerical to where I don't have to wake up at the crack of dawn, you wake up and you wake up. 

[00:50:13] Yeah, I wake up when I wake up and like, like today I had an alarm. Yesterday I had an alarm, but like Tuesday after I got, just got back from like a music festival, I'm like, no alarm. My first one, my first thing is at noon I will be awake by then. Right. Um, so giving myself that permission to, as someone who had an alarm going off five days outta the week to be like, you know what? 

[00:50:33] No more alarm and I that I feel like I sleep better. Like I'm sure. Yes. And not like kicking myself like, you need to get out of bed and walk the dogs like I, and or like you need to do your workouts and your meditation and like your positive fucking affirmations. You don't need that. 

[00:50:49] Some days you just need to snooze a little longer. Have a longer morning and just move how you need. And that took me years. To realize like, oh, the [00:51:00] routine I'm trying to create every single day isn't gonna work every single day. What do you mean? I don't wake up the same way every single day, but that's really how it is. 

[00:51:08] And I have plenty of days during the week where I'm like, okay, I'll wake up a little later. Okay. I don't have to start anything until like 10. Cool. I will give myself the morning and not check my email until 10 because, yeah. The thing is like, and I try to make this clear to people because, and that's why I'm such a fucking like about email on your phone, is because if someone's emailing you, they're not expecting an immediate response. 

[00:51:35] Mm-hmm. Text message maybe, but even that, that can wait, but email, oh yes, texting, like email, they'll, they don't expect an immediate response. They expect, you know, a one to three day response and you can take your time on that. And it's okay to have those times when it's like, okay, these are the hours I check my email and I do not check them after this time. 

[00:51:54] That just, and it doesn't look bad from your perspective, it looks like you are a [00:52:00] professional who really has hours where you handle things. And the right people will respect that. The ones that push that are not the clients for you. You do not want clients pushing your boundaries. Well, and another thing that I forgot to mention earlier in my shelter career, I would get frantic phone calls forwarded to me by Postadoption adopters because their dog was exhibiting this behavior and they're super freaked out. 

[00:52:21] Or their, their newly adopted dog just got out and attacked another dog, or bit their kid or like won't stop chasing their cat or peeing in the house. And I'm just like, I don't need to call you back right now. Right? I would be sitting at my desk trying to catch up from like two days of being off work and I had three email accounts at my job. 

[00:52:38] I had three that I had to look at. And I know for someone with adhd, I'm like, why? That's not, well, you know, I'm, I'm just, doing the most for the least amount of money possible. Right. Salt in the air. Just had to say that. I, I will say that, just giving myself that permission to not be like, oh, this, my phone needs to be answered right away. 

[00:52:56] Cause I do have a Google Voice account. I have a phone number that [00:53:00] people ca can call and text me on, and I'm not working that it's off, it's turned off. I'm like, you can wait. Like this is not an emergency. Because in my mind, if this is an emergency, You need to be considering if this dog is right for your home. 

[00:53:12] You need to be considering if, you know, this rescheduling thing just has to happen right now. Because a lot of, a lot of what I talk to my clients about is like our own anxiety because there's that stupid myth that like our anxiety feeds into our dogs. Yeah. And I just rolled my eyes heavily at that. 

[00:53:28] Yes, yes. If no one is watching on YouTube right now, Mandy is giving me some wonderful facial expressions. But I, yeah, it's just all like, debunking all these myths and telling people to give themselves that permission of, you know, I, I will not like put on my trainer hat and be like, this is fixable for a situation that I do not think is safe. 

[00:53:46] And I'm. So grateful for my shelter career, for the, for that like time that I spent there to get a sense of realism, for a success rate of a dog in a certain environment. And also with the history. Because I mean, this just might not be the right [00:54:00] dog for that Right. 

[00:54:00] Environment really. And, um, yeah. Yeah. And like, you know, validating their guilty feelings and validating their, their really deep like sadness about the situation. I have had people cry, like I've cried with people like it. It's a hard thing to do because you get so judged on the other end of the spectrum. 

[00:54:19] And I think that was another thing about the shelter world, is that it is internally full of a lot of judgmental people. because I could say every time I watched one of my favorite dogs gave return. Like, oh, that person sucks. Oh, that, that person doesn't know what they're doing. I, and occasionally there were times where it was like, yes, an older person, um, may have adopted a puppy who was, it was just not a good fit. 

[00:54:38] but I have some clients who have really young, active dogs and they're older and they're kicking ass. So sometimes it's not right. Sometimes it's not always about like the judgmental aspect. It's just about like, if it is a frustrating situation, giving yourself permission to be a little frustrated, but figuring out what you can do moving forward. 

[00:54:55] and I think that that's, something that I have to give myself permission about, like with my business and [00:55:00] also with self-sabotaging and like not, I think it was when I actually had a business is when I started to get more imposter syndrome. Cause I'm like, look at how good quality all of these are filmed. 

[00:55:11] And I'm like, why don't I have a ring light? Why don't I have this? Like, and I, like, I will leave a session that was fucking amazing and then I'll be like, I didn't film any of that because I'm so prioritized to the dog and my client. You're in the moment, their time. And yeah, we had a, um, I went and did some training with my friends in Salt Lake, because they're clients mine virtually. 

[00:55:30] And I had two amazing sessions. And we're driving away from their house to our Airbnb. And I'm like, I didn't film a single thing of that. 

[00:55:37] And then I'm like, you know what? It went great and that's the point. But yes, I know that when, when a situation is happening later is when I will try and film it as best I can. and I think that's another thing too about like mental health on Instagram and social media. Like do not feel pressured to. 

[00:55:53] Film every single thing that you do, and try to replicate those things because I've tried and just like really [00:56:00] quick shout out to Kayla with the Toby project because some of her, like fanny pack cam stuff, I've tried to do that and it's just like the zipper and then like whatever is happening and I'm like, well, this isn't working, but like if that's in your repertoire to do that, hell yes for you. But don't ever feel, if you're listening to this, like don't ever feel pressured to create that same replicable content that you would like, hope and pray is, modeled after someone else you saw online. Like everyone on social media is so different, but it's something that I'm so grateful for, especially when I was leaving my job and starting my business. 

[00:56:29] I got like mounds of support from total strangers and that's something that I will always be grateful for. Well, and don't forget that we just established that you are still a little, you know, in uterus business and of course mm-hmm. You're not gonna think to film things and come with like, filming equipment and, and have things ready because you're just trying to be present in the moment with your clients. 

[00:56:52] And that's all you should worry about in the beginning. Don't worry about filming and making things pretty because you're still getting established. We don't [00:57:00] need to worry about that right now. And the people that do have the pretty content and are doing so much, they have teams, they have a staff. Yeah. 

[00:57:06] That is different. And they have worked very hard to get to that point. And you will get there not four months of just owning your business. It takes time. Exactly. And exactly. But um, yeah, steering back to like, you know, giving ourselves grace for when we do start businesses. I think that that was something I, I did struggle with for a while and it's, it's gotten a lot better because I have all these ideas. 

[00:57:27] Like, when idea that I, I need to like get my shit together about is, my webinar, it's called Cue the Chaos. Shout out to Joy at Comfort, the Dog Training for helping me. I love that. Yeah. for helping me come up with that name. because initially that's what I was gonna name my business, but that would've been good. 

[00:57:44] I know, but after talking to a lot of people, I, like, I have, so I love Manner, like slow. Yeah. I, I needed a business name that wasn't going to be so like I. Off-putting to people where they're like, I'm already in chaos. Why the hell would I want more? So I do feel like [00:58:00] mannered ness is better, but Cue the Chaos is actually gonna be a, a webinar about some of, uh, the filming that I did when I was in the shelter that I'm able to use with certain dogs. 

[00:58:08] And like, one thing I will say for like, any new trainer listening, like volunteer at a shelter or even become employed at one for maybe not six years. But you know what, if you wanna do that, like by all means like, maybe even like a year and learn, like learn so much from these dogs and like learn what you can do because you are working with dogs who, despite all these programs and despite all these things, like they do not get their needs met. 

[00:58:30] And you will learn so much about skills that you will take to real life clients with real life dogs. Because I don't think I've taught one single dog how to sit since I started my business. They just do it. Like I, that's so, I love that though, cuz it's true. It's just, it's like, Expanding their world and, and teaching them all these things and, and helping the parents have these outlets for them and working together. 

[00:58:55] Like the obedience shit will come in time as they settle in. [00:59:00] Yeah. Like it'll just be natural. Yeah. Yeah, looks like a dog will sit down eventually. Like, and same with laying down. Like we'll work on that later. You know what's really cool? Validating their feelings and making sure they're not nervous about shit you're gonna be dealing with every day. 

[00:59:12] Same with the, like puppies. I'm like, take your puppy out. Look at some stuff. Touch your puppy. Like, make sure you're like understanding their body language and their consent and like maybe you can work on their name. Like, that's it, that's all I care about, about Right now's, it's all like beginnings, like, yeah, no, it's, well, and it's interesting cuz I feel like when I was raising my puppy, I told clients a lot things in the moment with their puppies, but I didn't have a puppy. 

[00:59:35] And then after getting my puppy, I'm like, oh, this is why they were like, what the fuck, Mandy? I was like, you just go through it. I'm like, oh yeah, I see how that didn't happen. Why am I you trying this when it's just not gonna work and I just need to let her be a puppy even though she's a heathen. Yeah, I had a, I had a client last night who their dog is now entering adolescences and we were talking about like declining behavior and all these things and Yeah, you scoff cuz you know, [01:00:00] that's so natural. 

[01:00:00] Yeah. And I was like, you guys, you can just tell me like, he kind of sucks right now. Like, it's okay to just like say that and just get it out and not bottle it up because you wanna keep like the positive bus going, I think that, you know, like just giving people permission to be frustrated if that need comes around also like, Figuring out what you can learn from those moments. 

[01:00:19] Because I was so angry with Layla all the time that our first year together, that I don't, it's not that I don't get upset with her now occasionally, but I, I learned so many things from my career and positive reinforcement training that now give me those better permission and it, it totally repaired our relationship. 

[01:00:37] Cuz I had to recondition her name. If I would say Layla and I could have a piece piece of chicken, she would look at me for, she'd be like, fuck you. I had to buy a new interesting. I had to buy a new bed because I sent her to go lay down so many times cuz I was so pissed at her for growling and snapping at my friends. 

[01:00:52] That has to be a great story to share with clients too and get them to understand that that, you know, it can change, [01:01:00] it can improve. It can totally change. And I, I always want people to know, like it's not just my dogs. It's like so many of my clients' dogs too, where like things will get better. I really think that like, it's so important to just like, just remember it's okay to be a normal person. Like I, we are, we, none of us are perfect. Like imposter syndrome is gonna get us all. 

[01:01:18] But I think giving ourselves grace. We need to be nice to ourselves. We really do. And I think that removing myself from an environment, that. Led me to a lot of burnout and pretty severe depression did not deter me from not loving the rescue world and not really like encouraging people to get involved with your local shelters. 

[01:01:37] Especially if you're like, wanting to become a dog trainer, that's amazing. You'll learn so much, and that is something that I stress to people every single day. I think that, my, my biggest permission that I give to myself is not to be angry at the place. Um, that really like exhausted me because it's, it's not the fault of that. 

[01:01:53] It's easy to do that. The fault of the dogs. Yeah. Um, because there were a lot of dogs that I work with there, that are no longer with us, [01:02:00] but I know I tried my damnedest and I learned a lot from every single dog I worked with and every single. Person I talked to who was having, a really hard time with their dog. 

[01:02:08] Every class I taught, every single thing taught me that everything is so different. And that is something that I'll carry with me throughout. Um, I just, I love that even though you've had that experience and that has been your journey and it's long one, that that hasn't deterred you from still pursuing a career with dogs and still mm-hmm. 

[01:02:29] Advocating for shelters and, and still having that connection and being able to work with people in shelters. It's just, that's huge. And that really shows how much you genuinely care and empathize for that entire, the industry and just for, you know, people that are going through that because it's not, It's not an easy path to walk and I know. 

[01:02:50] Mm-hmm. That can really wear people down and make people just be like, fuck this, I'm done. I don't want to be around animals again. Cuz it can really wear you down. Mm-hmm And I think it's so [01:03:00] important that you still want to have a career in this and you're still fired up about it. I can see that. I see everything you're posting just cuz I don't comment or respond to things. 

[01:03:09] Cuz I barely have the spoons doesn't mean I don't see it and acknowledge. Mm-hmm. Like you're still fired up and I can tell that you really enjoy what you do, but being a new business owner is overwhelming in its own. Oh, it totally is. I was like, I am gonna not let myself get burnt out. Oh my God. 

[01:03:27] Why am I letting like my. Like Google voice account go off all day. Like, what the hell is wrong with me? So finally, and honestly, some of the things you've said in this podcast have been so helpful. Um, one thing about the hustle culture of a shelter world is that a break is totally not normalized. It's like, oh, but we can like eat our lunch and then we can answer emails and put notes in about our evaluations and like, fuck that. 

[01:03:48] I, I, I cannot tell you how much joy I get now eating a nice lunch and like watching tv. Right. And like, not, and like, and like looking at roller skates [01:04:00] cuz I really want a new pair of roller skates, but like, I just doing something else that doesn't work. I'm like, I am allowed to give myself a fucking break. 

[01:04:06] Like, and I finding more joy in things you enjoy. Yeah. Because all of that was gone when I was in my, in my job. And I, I really think that leaving that job is like, my doctor and my therapist were like, you seem. Better. And I'm like, right, yes. That's how it's though. That is some, it is something that I encourage a lot of, like new trainers to just try out, like even if it's just volunteering, like getting in with, um, the behavior department in your shelter. 

[01:04:32] Just go walk some dogs, man. Like that's what they need. Like they need to be walked, they need to be fostered. They need just general like sniffy stuff, like the obedience stuff will come later when someone's repeating to them to sit down 15 times. Right. Like they don't owe you anything. Like they just wanna go pee on stuff and like eat some enrichment. 

[01:04:51] So I think, yeah, and like honestly, yeah, their lives need to be so much more enriched. So that is something I 100% encourage doing. Um, my friend actually [01:05:00] became the director of a, shelter in my area and, she also has a bajillion years of shelter experience, but it was so. Great. Being able to connect with her, after I was leaving my job and then she was, , starting her director position. She told me something that will kind of stick with me forever. And it's, people and animal welfare will fail upward because they are not given the correct tools and resources and, mental health things that they need. And it'll just, it'll just be this never ending lag. 

[01:05:30] And that is something that will sit with me forever. Um, because I've watched that environment do that to people and I still am, and I'm just like, you know, I am, I am so grateful for my time there. And that is, What I encourage people to do in small doses. but I am always available if anyone ever has any questions about volunteering with your local shelter or things to kind of be aware of. 

[01:05:49] Um, working with dogs who have weird behaviors from shelters. It's kind of like my bread and butter. So that is all stuff that I am like really very thankful that I, I [01:06:00] have in my, in my belt. 

[01:06:01] That's interesting. I bet the further your career expands, you're gonna notice where you're niching down more and specializing more because you have that background. And I'm sure over as time goes on, you're gonna see even more of the value in having that background and how much it's gonna elevate your career because you have that experience as traumatizing as it was living through it. 

[01:06:22] But yeah, it's really assisting your, your, oh, I can't think of the word. Your repertoire and your toolbox. Yes. As a trainer. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. So I mean, and that was one thing I was like, I'm not gonna be able to like get clientele. Like, I'm still, I think like being a trainer, I have about like five years of experience now. 

[01:06:43] three of them being on my own. And I, I tell my clients like, you know, my business is still really new. And they're like, we had no idea. Like, you just seem really see smart. And I'm like, and. Uh, because I like to be honest with people. but yeah, they appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that [01:07:00] that's something I'm really grateful that I have is like years of training experience, but also years of shelter experience as well. 

[01:07:05] So I am so glad that, I did start my own thing because it's also, I, I think though that episode of Smart Bitch like, making your business yours, I'm like, hell yes. Like I want people to know that, like I can help them with their dog's behavior, but I also don't wanna take away from the fact that like we all have our own little misfit and it's okay to like acknowledge them as well, behave, but also not take away these like beautiful little temperaments that they have that we love so much about them. 

[01:07:32] Right. Ugh. I just think you are such a beautiful human being and I just love getting to hear this experience. I love where you are headed with your career. It's been so cool watching it from just the sidelines of Instagram and now being able to talk through it with you and have more of understanding. 

[01:07:50] It's, I'm just so excited for you and I am just so excited that you came on and that we could talk about this because it's an angle that we don't really talk about mu [01:08:00] much of. Mm-hmm. And we don't really even see this overlap or the need for more mental health prioritization, in shelters. 

[01:08:08] Specifically because that is, oh, we can go down a rabbit hole on that in a whole other episode, I'm really, I'm happy to see that you are starting off your business, prioritizing your mental health, and you are seeing how important that is in your business. And I'm really glad to hear you have your email off your phone. Yes. Oh my God. And I'm eating like your little recipe of like fried rice with an egg and like veggies. 

[01:08:31] I had some this morning, so it's so quick. Yes. And dude, I don't have a kitchen. I have three appliances in this tiny little hut. Hey, you can do it with that. Yeah. Yeah. And so I gotta like, make meals that are easy, but it's like, I don't have a fucking oven. I don't have room for one, so I No, you know, just have to get creative. 

[01:08:47] But I'm so glad that like one of the things you talked about was food and that is some that is, that is a very, relationship. I can do a whole episode about that. Don't tell me about that. You really, you, you might have to, especially for my shelter people, because it's like [01:09:00] drinking Dutch brothers and eating McDonald's all the time. 

[01:09:02] Combined with energy drinks and just like the lack of nutrition is so, it was so relevant in my shelter career.  

[01:09:09] Well I'm just so excited to give this to other people to listen to and mm-hmm. Hopefully they find some benefit. I know they will. So do you, you have any advice for anyone that is just getting started? Because I think it's so badass that you kind of just hit the ground running and just went for it because I think more of us need to know that that is okay. 

[01:09:30] We do not need to have it all planned out. Yes. So, something I will say that I started to realize over time when I was leaving my job is that, um, Whereas it might seem like the place is gonna fall apart without you, it won't, it will still remain standing. What you can do is take away what you've learned and, prioritize yourself and your wellbeing because this is gonna sound kind of shitty, but you don't really owe anyone anything. 

[01:09:54] And I think that you really should just, if you, if you feel like she did a job like I [01:10:00] did for the last year I was there, then you should absolutely start looking at other ways to work out of it. If you are looking into getting, trying to get your own business off the ground, just start, talking to your friends, getting on your social media and just like making connections. 

[01:10:14] I made so many amazing connections on Instagram that I am so grateful for and I think that really benefited me. But, um, you're allowed to be scared, but you're also allowed to just do it. Yes, just do it. Don't fucking trademark me Nike, but just do it. Oh, this is such a great way to end this. Thank you so much for coming on, Ashley. 

[01:10:33] Yeah, no problem. Mandy. 

[01:10:35] And if you like today's episode, you like what we're doing here on the Leashed Mind podcast, please feel free to follow us on social media, subscribe to our YouTube channel, tag us share with a friend, like just give a little r plus and we'll be back with another episode.