Advocacy & Resilience w/Annie Phenix

A quick note - there are brief mentions of  euthanasia and suicide.

In our second-to-last episode Mandy is joined by Annie Phenix, the founder of The Official Midnight Dog Walkers Club, Facebook group - a vibrant community dedicated to owners and trainers of reactive and aggressive dogs. Our conversation goes further into Annie’s journey of establishing the Phenix Advocacy Center, aimed at prioritizing self-care amongst R+ pet professionals and forming a much-needed dialogue on these critical issues. She is also the acclaimed author of "The Midnight Dog Walkers". This book, though out of print, became a valuable resource for trainers worldwide, and has gotten a revamp with a second edition "Positive Training for Aggressive and Reactive Dogs."

By the end of the episode, listeners will gain insight into the less-discussed emotional toll of this profession and how a sense of community and a collective commitment to welfare and kindness can be a life preserver in this demanding industry.

Links to sites/groups mentioned in this episode:
------
The Official Midnight Dog Walker Club’s FB private group with trainers and owners:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/1713528972260741

The Phenix Advocacy Center(PAC) website:  https://phenixadvocacycenter.com/

The PAC Members private FB group:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/1425276967879834

The PAC FB page (public): https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100089557613242

Colleen Pelar:  https://colleenpelar.com/

Andrew Hale’s Dog Centred Care FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1102691126911105

Dr. Laura Donaldson’s website:  https://fourpawsfourdirections.com

Transcript

[00:00:07] Welcome back to The Leashed Mind Podcast, mental Health and Dog Training. I am your host, Mandy Boutelle. On today's episode, I have a conversation with Annie Phenix from, well, let's see here. I think you will most know Annie from her book that she wrote. A few years ago called Midnight Dog Walkers Positive Training and Practical Advice for Living with reactive and aggressive dogs. 

[00:00:32] It's a really popular book, not just for dog trainers, but for , pet parents, and just, , kind of figuring out how to navigate life with a reactive, aggressive dog. But she's also most known for her business and her advocacy for dog trainers and navigating having a business and prioritizing their mental health, which is, you know, kind of why I wanted to have her on the podcast for talking about mental health, talking about growing [00:01:00] your business and finding ways to. 

[00:01:02] Best have it work for yourself. So her other big venture that she has been working on is the Phenix Advocacy Center where you can join their Facebook group. There is a huge list of resources peer to peer support for r plus canine professionals. 

[00:01:20] Just having resources and figuring out how to run our business in a way that sets us up in the best way possible while really prioritizing mental health and taking care of ourselves so that we're not getting burnt out. We're not dealing with cyber bullies, we're not dealing with. imposter syndrome or finding ways to bounce back from that. 

[00:01:38] So that's kind of a lot of the things that Annie and I cover in this episode. We talk about all those, key touch points when it comes to mental health and running our business. But we also talk about how she has created, first it started with the Midnight Dog Walkers Facebook group, which still exists. 

[00:01:55] It's there for reactive and aggressive dog. Parents and pet professionals as [00:02:00] well. It's kind of all clustered. One in that. And then the Phenix Advocacy Center Facebook group and website is more for r plus pet professionals and focusing on prioritizing themselves within their business. So long intro, but let's get into the episode. 

[00:02:16] . Annie, it is such an honor to finally have you on. I'm so excited to just talk all mental health with you. Thank you for being here, and thank you for having this podcast. 

[00:02:24] I think it's a shining light on problems that we need to be addressing sooner than later, like now, few years ago, even right well, speaking of being a shining light, I really want to introduce you and our listeners to each other because a lot of our listeners may not even know about you just yet, which I think is a shame, and they need to know more about you and the Midnight dog Walker and your Facebook group. 

[00:02:49] So would you do me the honor of giving them a little intro on that? Yeah, I wrote the Midnight Dog Walkers, a book about reactivity mostly, but it's also kind of a part memoir of my experience with [00:03:00] working with rescue dogs. I wrote that back in 2016. It's now outta print, which I don't agree with that, but I'm not the publisher so . Trainers really liked it and sold it in their classes, my next book, which is this one is gonna be, this is supposed to be a second edition of the midnight dog Walkers. 

[00:03:15] Oh, funny. They left me alone and they shouldn't have done it cause I wrote way too much and it's not, it's all new. There's like one chapter that is, was in the midnight dog walker, so it's all new information. Oh, okay. And out of that, the first book we created, a Facebook, private Facebook group of support. 

[00:03:30] It's owners and trainers, which is kinda unique. And it's the Midnight Dog Walkers Club. And, people are welcome to join us there. It's, our basic rules are don't be a jerk and don't promote anything that harms an animal, a dog, tools or methodologies. And people don't, we don't, so many people don't join Facebook groups anymore because they can just, if they're not moderated, they just, well, you, you just not using it. 

[00:03:53] Right. Or you're stupid. I know the quadrants, but you went to the wrong school. Oh my God. Yes. That is why I avoid Facebook [00:04:00] groups. Like, are we in high school? Could we not? And some people apparently just go to instigate and they're, they're not welcome. And we will catch you and you will be, you know, I don't care who you are and how many followers you, followers you have. 

[00:04:10] And, um, and then this year I started the Phoenix Advocacy Group for Positive Reinforcement Professionals. And that includes rumors, dog walkers. It's not just trainers or behaviors. It's just specifically for professionals. And, I'd love to talk about the advocacy. Yes. Yes. I would love to. It's, it's been remarkable. 

[00:04:30] Um, it's one of those things that it's like, why didn't you do this And I actually went through, I, I asked, um, other people to volunteer and we have 25 core core volunteers that started it. We've gone through specific peer to peer support. Training is, that's what our group is. 

[00:04:44] It's peer to peer support training, which I didn't know was the thing. I didn't, it was new to me. and I, I learned so much and I'm still learning. We're still, we're raising money to take more courses for our moderators. We have 10 moderators, well volunteer. We have no money. We're starting right this money, we are getting our nonprofit status. 

[00:04:59] And then [00:05:00] we will be able to do a whole lot more for and on behalf of positive reinforcement trainers. Like we are a fierce advocacy group. Young, we're young, but we're also I call us the Crohn's, 

[00:05:11] Crohn's, and Neil, I say, because Neil is our one, one male volunteer who stepped up Neil Stein and he's wonderful. but so we're not, we're not young. The organization is young, but it's, you know, hundreds of years put together of experience as trainers. And we wanna fill in that missing gap that has been absent, um, where we have your back and support you. 

[00:05:29] We advocate for you in whatever ways that that develops, including in the media. I come from a media background, like if you see an awful story with outdated science, being quoted, we're gonna have specialists, including me because I am a journalist, contact the reporter and just try to gently, oh, by the way, the science that you're coded was 400 years old or whatever. 

[00:05:49] Right. Or I call it, um, abusive science or, um, cruel science. It's some of the, most of it the dog training is based on was very cruel to, to dogs. Right. Or [00:06:00] discredited, like dominance theory. Right. So, anyway, so that's part of the accuracy. We, , we're very much, I feel like we're kind of a sister organization to the not one more vet, organization, which is a nonprofit, which they started their group after. 

[00:06:11] they know from actually census. data that veterinarians have, unfortunately an extremely high suicide rate. Right. Burnout and everything else. so they started not one more vet and they started in 2016 and now they're, they have 10 employees and they do, they have fundraiser. 

[00:06:26] I mean, they, they're, they're well, adapted to the environment and they, their whole goal is let's not lose another vet. Mm-hmm. You know, and let's, we'll provide mental support. We'll provide financial support, we'll provide, now they even have legal support. So cuz they're praise Oh, that's huge for veterinarians. 

[00:06:41] And that's, so we, they helped me. I went, I found them. And so they kind of went through all of the early problems of that kind of group. They figured it all out in the, you know, the trouble spots and what to watch out for. Right. We hit the ground running and, um, opened our Facebook group. After two months of training, we opened it April 3rd. 

[00:06:57] And, um, it's just been remarkable. I mean, some of the stuff makes [00:07:00] you just cry that people Absolutely. That we have to endure because we don't have any guidance. And so we're all just kind of, like I said before we hit record, we're all kind of just drowning on our own, figuring out how to navigate it, and it's hard to find a life preserver when we're already drowning. 

[00:07:16] I would love to hear about what made you kind of just even get the idea to start this group and, and start advocating for this. I, I'm assuming it was born from personal experience. Oh, yes and no. I am not a trainer who says, let's make friends and I'll hold hands with someone who I feel is abusing a dog. 

[00:07:36] Right. That's not a person I want in my life or in my. I don't wanna see their feed, I don't wanna see the dog being harmed. So I'm not one of those trainers. And then the other part is, well, we're all force free trainers and then you see us tribally not being force free with one another. Right. So then you, you do, you trust and you either leave the industry and I left for five years. 

[00:07:55] So yeah, I had burnout. I would say burnout in large part because of that, but also dealing with [00:08:00] clients and also dealing with behavior. Cuz I'm, I've always worked behavior. I left for five years. I wasn't in any goods after my book came out. , for a lot of reasons we were moving houses and all sorts of stuff. 

[00:08:08] And I had a great time. I had a wonderful time, I bet. Started painting furniture, chalk paint furniture, which I, I'm not a good painter, but chalk paint is very forgiving. I would sell it and make, you know, make enough to put more paint basically. Right. Fun. Okay. Time in so many years that I didn't care about where the furniture went. 

[00:08:27] And what kinda home it had, you know, kick burn it in your stove. I don't care because it wasn't alive. So that was freeing. And I do recommend trainers have, before you get into the industry, have Right. doesn't involve a live animal, so you have some comparison. Right, right. Stressful. Our jobs are, so anyway, that's writing this book and the new book, and I wasn't going to, because I was retired, I, I mean, I would work with clients one on one every now, you know, one or two a month. 

[00:08:50] But I wasn't active really in the industry. And my publisher contacted me years ago and said, Hey, could you just do a second edition of the midnight dog walkers? Luckily valued my [00:09:00] expertise and did listen to me, but I couldn't find, I wanted the name because. Their point was no one knows what the midnight dog walker, what a midnight dog walker is. I said, right, you do if you have a reactive dog, because they're walking at midnight or 5:00 AM to avoid the triggers. 

[00:09:12] But if you have a dog that's barking too much or chasing, or some of these other, or separation anxiety, you may not. I agree. You may not know what that means. That's a very specific reactive dog on leash. And that's what that book was mostly about. this book, I, I did agree to do it at the very last minute. 

[00:09:27] I was, I had no intention, because it's hard, it's hard to write a book. It took two years. And I decided halfway right through this book to interview 17, it ended up being 17 experts around the world. 

[00:09:36] for different parts, you know, which expert on the ground, which expert might fit nicely into this chapter on raising puppies. Right. I love that  

[00:09:43] that's the reason I love this book so much is the interviews because it profoundly changed me because I was still pretty curmudgeonly. Like, it's terrible. The infighting is terrible. We're never gonna get better as an industry. It's toxic. It was toxic to me. It's toxic to many of us. Oh yeah. And it's hard for the dogs. 

[00:09:58] It, it's a horrible, and we [00:10:00] have kind of ruined dogs in my opinion. they're troubled, they're exceeding trouble. But in interviewing these people, I got a renewed, lease on training a new I, new enthusiasm that I had lost. I don't know if, if I, oh, interesting. I don't know if I ever really had it, cuz I'm like, this sucks for dogs. 

[00:10:16] And the pressure is if you don't fix it, then the dog might, might die. Right? You might sleep if you're in behavior work. So anyway, long story, long-winded story. These had a profound aside on me because they're optimi. I asked them, are you optimistic or pessimistic about the future of dog welfare? 

[00:10:31] Everyone said they're optimistic, incredibly optimistic. And I'm like, why? That's interesting. Yeah. I love to ask questions. , why are you optimistic? And each one told me, and they're doing incredible things. Okay. After incredible things with dogs because Midnight dog walkers was a lot about, counter conditioning and desensitizing, cuz that was 2016. That was our, to me, our biggest tool besides it was BAT and all these other programs, they're wonderful programs, but they were kind of new it newer. 

[00:10:56] Yep. And conditioning is old, very old and [00:11:00] based on what I called science. so I wanted to address other behavioral issues. so I finished writing the book and what I realized, cause we did a lot of Zoom cause of Covid. I talked to more trainers. I'm still trying to answer the question of how I started. 

[00:11:12] No, you're great. I talked to more trainers in the last, since Covid and the last two or three years than I have in 25 years as a trainer. Oh, I'm sure. Because of the book and because that's how we talk now. We don't go to conferences or we didn't. Right. So this, it's kind of, COVID kind of helped the industry in some way. People had such a profound impact on me. Like I realized how much connection we have that is not apparent on Facebook because of the tribalism and the fighting and you don't do my program. 

[00:11:37] But you don't use my science that I approve of that I know better than you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You have that title you're inferior, just shut up already and please try to be kind to one another as I shut up. That was eye opener. You know, and so I started doing interviews and I interviewed like Malena de Martini's in there, for separation anxiety. You know, I went to the kind of the known experts that are in the positive. It's all positive reinforcement, of course. but [00:12:00] then, After I started talking to these people, I'm like, they're really kind. Well, I kind of chose kind people I think because I didn't see them fighting or screaming about themselves and how they're the best, right? 

[00:12:10] So They were truly in it for the same reasons I got into it. We just have dogs first and foremost. Right? And then you've kinda fell in love with the people who love the dogs, at least those who aren't causing you trouble as clients So that just like, what are we doing? So we were doing all these interviews and, and then more friends. I made more friends with trainers, you know, that I knew from afar basically. But what I would do is say, say anyone listening, if you're a young trainer, new trainer, you have questions about the industry, just contact me. my dms are open. 

[00:12:36] Just opening the conversation and knowing they have someone to communicate with and they can Cause for years, yeah, we haven't felt that. Yeah. Like the founders, which were mostly women of positive reinforcement, thought like hell and went through hell, just like with women's movements everywhere, right? 

[00:12:52] But then it seemed to be camps. I'm in this camp, I'm in the people underneath them and maybe some of the old, old timers. I'm an old timer, so I can say [00:13:00] that. Just tribalism. It feels It's the hair splitting in the side picking, and you're not doing it the way I'm doing it. You didn't learn this the way I learned this, and so therefore you don't know enough. 

[00:13:10] I know more you shouldn't be teaching. And it's just like, oh, you're not allowing anyone to catch up to you though. Yeah. And shaming, like, yes. And we're all traumatized anyway. Okay. So I, oh yeah, let's get into that. If you're, if you're traumatized as a kid, you fall in love with dogs, you'll probably end up being a dog trainer. 

[00:13:26] so, people were contacting me over Zoom and things were happening in the industry that always happened, which is this Force Free trainer yelled at this Force Free trainer over X, Y, and Z and this force free trainer's, fans on this page yelled at, attacked. Yes, yes. And you're stupid. 

[00:13:41] And how dare. And so then instead of like, if you're gonna attack people, how about the aversive trainers to me? Like, if that's what you wanna do. Go and defend dogs against people who are really hurting them. Don't attack people on your side. Yeah. They're not harming dogs that the whole existence. Even if you don't agree with how they're doing it, I mean, they're not, still not harming dogs. 

[00:13:59] You [00:14:00] just don't like the science they like, basically. Right. They like, so, so many people contacted me last year because there were several big explosions and there will be months the month after that it just, it will go on. But some of these really hurt, many trainers because it was confusing as some of the things that were happening because they're like, but we thought this person was on our team 100% and now I'm curious. 

[00:14:20] I don't think this person is necessarily on our team. Whatever. They were really upset. So for like 10 days I got all these calls and I'm, I'm so glad they reached out to me. But what I realized is I don't really know how to help except to listen. Right. So then I, I found out, I started talking to them, not one more vet like how did you get started? 

[00:14:36] And they were tremendous and amazing. they now have 30,000 veterinarians and vet techs in their Facebook group. That's incredible. Lawyers, CPAs, they, one thing they do, which I, this is one reason I want us to have money and it's so, so simple, is to do gift baskets for veterinarians who are having a hard time. 

[00:14:54] Oh, I love that. Have another trainer sent a gift basket to a [00:15:00] trainer, you know, to say, I see that you're suffering. Cuz people will say on their Facebook page or they get, or we see them, having a hard time. Yeah. You know, so that's one thing that's very high on our agenda. But then I've realized the peer to peer support thing is a real thing that's been going on for maybe 10 or 20 years in organizations. 

[00:15:16] And I'm like, we don't have peer to peer support. Not a formal. Do you not, not in that way of, of talking about the personal stuff. It, it might be like business consulting and talking about how to approach like a training plan, but never the personal mental health side of it ever. You don't what is wrong with us? 

[00:15:33] Why do we not discuss what is so taxing? I'm curious if it's like, do we just, and by we, I I I mean the schools in the courses, do we just assume that like, oh, they'll get a therapist and they can handle that in therapy? Cause it's like we need it for like the profession that we're in though, it's animal welfare is what it's Right. 

[00:15:53] No matter what you're teaching, even though you're a sports trainer, the animal welfare is still there. and the heartache is still there in all, everything that [00:16:00] we do because maybe the dog hates agility and you're in, you know, you have to try to Convince the owner not to force the, you know, whatever it is. 

[00:16:06] Right. Dealing with other people. I mean, some people have got, and there's been some books and stuff, but the schools, in my opinion, are mostly training how to train, which is great, but it's, I tell 'em, I tell trainers, you are an entrepreneur and think of yourself as that way. 

[00:16:20] You're not just a dog trainer and you also have to make money, by the way, right? Yes. And, and so many times you see them pumping out all this free content on YouTube, on social media, and it's just, and I've said this in several episodes of the podcast, but you're not getting paid for that. You're putting this out there to try and attract your clients maybe, but the likelihood of those people taking you seriously enough to pay you isn't in your favor. 

[00:16:46] And so we just keep grinding ourselves into the ground to do this, but we're not getting ahead. And then we wonder why we're burnt out and hate our profession. I think it's passion. Yes. You know, we love dogs and I've even taken a step back because now thankfully [00:17:00] trainers are talking about trauma in dogs and what we have traumatized them, but that also makes us reflect on ourselves or should about our own trauma because we all have trauma. 

[00:17:09] Yes. Andrew Hail, who I interviewed in the book and we've become friends, he said something very early that in fact a lot of what Andrew said to me made me stop writing the book like I Need. Because he has a series called series called Beyond the Operant that's on YouTube. And I'm like, what is beyond the operant? 

[00:17:23] What are these people? Because I had left for five years, so I did right. Yeah. To get reacquainted. So I asked who, what, where, when, and why and I can't. One thing he said that made a profound impact on my life, it's a little thing, but he said when he meets a new dog or a new person, he presumes they have experienced trauma. 

[00:17:36] I think that's a great way to approach that. And we don't give, dog trainers are so beaten down I think is like looking so tired. Even if they're not even on social media, just our jobs are that demanding and we don't ever talk about it. That then if you get some criticism either from a client or the neighbor or your uncle or social media bullying, cyber bullying, which is a real thing, it just, it can feel devastated. 

[00:17:57] Devastating because you're so strung out and you're so [00:18:00] exhausted. It's like the nail in the coffin and people leave Goodbye. I quit this industry. The average, according to the Census Bureau was two years pathetic. A friend of mine said, she's on my board actually, of the, Phoenix Advocacy Center. She said that's, drug counselors last longer than that. 

[00:18:12] Addiction counselors last longer than they do. My mom was a substance abuse counselor and she was in it for like five or six years, and I'm just, yeah, that, that is a great comparison. I should tell her that because I lasted as a dog. Professional, like as a trainer for maybe four years, if that, and then I left because I, it, it was shouldering everything from my clients and, and I know that we're supposed to be that support for them, but it was not knowing how to process that for myself, and instead it got internalized and then it manifested into, well, I don't know. 

[00:18:46] I don't have enough information. I don't know who to talk to about this because none of us. We're talking about our mental health, and this was like 20 18, 20 19. It was just like you said, we go through these training programs. I went through a training [00:19:00] program, never talked about mental health. It was, you know, learning theory, uh, a how we apply things, mechanics. 

[00:19:07] It was never, you know, here's how you navigate this situation. Here's how it might affect your mental health. Like n it just never came up. And it's interesting cuz my mentors at the time, I know they had a lot of stress and, and a lot going on, so I can only imagine where their mental health was at that state and, and them being over threshold and, and teaching younger trainers. 

[00:19:27] Like even going from that perspective, you can't even imagine. Yeah, I, I asked on our Facebook group recently if you met a, doesn't have to be a young person, but a bright person who's new to the dog training. Green. Yeah, green whatever their age. And they, um, definitely wanna do positive reinforcement. 

[00:19:43] Would you recommend they pursue this career? No. Very, very interesting. The more burnt out, the toasty ones of us that are 40 and up said, no, hell no. Right? Do anything. We a garbage collector, which they earn a heck of a lot more money than we do, you know? the average by the way is 35,000 a year, [00:20:00] according, again, to the Census Bureau. 

[00:20:01] and it, and part of it is we are not a real profession. We are not viewed as a real profession. We are not called a professionals. And that's why we call ourselves in the group professionals. It's the advocacy center for canine professionals. And I encourage trainers to call each other professionals and act professional as well. 

[00:20:17] Go ahead and throw that in. Right. The reason, oh, this just hit me in the gut. I've been through a whole grieving process, creating this, advocacy group that I never, and the book that I never expected But now I'm in this very deep and I'm glad that I am because it, it has moved me along in my maturity and growth and in ways that I never ever imagined. Right. It kicked me so hard. Was talking to, there were five veterinarians who started not one more bet on their own because it was a crisis. One reason that we know that veterinarians have such a high suicide rate, and this is, I learned this from not one more vet people, is on a death certificate. 

[00:20:50] It lists your profession. And so the US government has been tracking suicide and all sorts of stuff from death certificates. And so it'll say veterinarian suicide. If that's what happened, [00:21:00] guess what? No one's tracking dog trainers. And the vet said that to me. We won't know how high your su your industry suicide rate or burnout rate really is. 

[00:21:07] Because, no, you're not a profession. And I'm like, we're too, we're a profession. And so we don't know. I have, and part of my advocacy is reaching out to universities that are studying stuff like this in veterinarians saying, could you a dog trainers? Cuz we don't know other than what anecdotally we tell each other and we see people leaving and you never hear from them again. 

[00:21:25] Good. Really good trainers. Far too many. And that's another reason I started it. It's like if we can keep the good ones in and lift you up and help you out, we finally, the calvary, very belatedly is showing up to try to help you stay in this industry because it's desperately needed. I, the census bureau was like in 2000 and you know, they keep calling you until you are harassing you, until you fill right and I probably put author or writer. 

[00:21:46] I don't think I've put dog trainer. So we don't know what we don't know. And how do you measure and how do you see progress? If they, they do know they, since you did. I did see that, that it said two years was the average. So somebody is somewhere in the system. Someone's putting it [00:22:00] down. Yeah. And something like 30,000 trainers in the uf. 

[00:22:03] But who, it's a guess who the hell no. And how many are aversive and how many are force free? I've asked them universities, we just know what we feel.  

[00:22:09] And dogs are so loved. Those people who love dogs, really love dogs. And some people will do anything, help their dog, including hiring us and working sometimes very long programs with us. And so dogs are loved. So why aren't trainers loved? Right? And why isn't the industry kinder to itself? Like, I've started to tell trainers, and I'm gonna do this in my group. 

[00:22:29] I'm gonna say you guys are Effing fantastic. Trainers are amazing. When I said to these, these, I asked for volunteers and the midnight dog walkers. Do you wanna help me start? Not really only, I only knew I wanted you to be structured, like not one more vet and that we would be a nonprofit and we would grow. 

[00:22:43] That was the, the structure that I had in mind and just peer to peer support, whatever that was. Yeah. 24 other people, they said yes, and they're busy and they're tired and they needed this support all along, but they never got it. and then we just, you know, I had a list of things. I need volunteers for this and this and this and this. 

[00:22:59] Bam, bam. Including [00:23:00] a logo. Neil, got us a Rubenstein, got us the logo. He has a friend who does logos, so we had a logo within a month and stuff like that that you have to pay for. It's very expensive, right? Yeah. I make logos so I know. So these dog trainers are very fast. What they do. They're very accomplished, they're very smart. 

[00:23:17] They love to learn. And so we were all just, we wanna know more about peer to peer support. And they, so we had a course, we have, um, requirements, some for volunteers and some for different ones. For moderators, we had to learn the language of not giving advice, So that was new for me. 

[00:23:31] Like all of the peer to peer stuff was new for me. I just wanted a better way to help people who were contacting me constantly saying they wanna quit. It's horrible, they're depressed. Imposter syndrome, all of it. Toxic stew, because I was saying contact me and we'll talk about it. And I'm like, I have to do better. 

[00:23:46] I mean, I can't. Listening is wonderful and that is what peer to peer support is. It's often just listening and sharing experiences, but peer to peer support is a, is a real concrete thing. And. Not all, and not everyone is perfect or nice, even side, but there are [00:24:00] more good kind people than there are nasty people. The nasty ones who wanna fight are fighting in, in our groups. And on their page, and I have blocked the hell out of them. I don't care if I see them being nasty. I'm not communicating with them because I don't communicate with abusers, period any fine. I don't want that in crap in my life. But if I see a force free trainer being just, I mean, we can, off of a bad day, I've been rude. 

[00:24:18] Right, right. We get, we get snappy, we get irritable. But that's different from just saying you don't know what you're talking about. Shut up. Yeah. Yeah. And belittling, yeah, belittling. So we have been belittled and put down, and so I'm now saying, but you're fantastic and you need to hear, you're fantastic and you need people who've been in the industry. 

[00:24:35] Maybe some of us have some names in the industry and some don't. But we have withstood the test of time and we're here to tell you, you're doing fine. You're doing better than fine. You're saving, literally saving this beloved animal's life day in and day out. we just need to help you focus on yourself a little bit more because they don't Right. 

[00:24:51] Well, cuz it's, and I, I think this is, you know, just how a lot of us are because we get in this industry because we love animals so much [00:25:00] because we want to help others so much that we just give and give and give. And here, how can I help you this way? Here I have a response for you this way. And we're just giving, giving, giving. 

[00:25:10] But nothing is making its way back to us. We are not filling up our own cup. Our cup is empty and we are pouring, trickling out our cup to everybody else. But then we don't realize that like, oh, I'm, I'm taking care of everyone else. I'm not taking care of myself. But we don't feel like, at least this is what I encountered, is I never felt like I deserved to have a space to talk about that because I thought, well, maybe I'm just anxious. 

[00:25:35] I'm overthinking it. Maybe I'm the only one feeling this way. And since I started this podcast, oh, I am realizing that is not the case. and having these conversations with other people in the industry, it's very comforting and reassuring to know that one way in another, in our careers, we have all felt this way. 

[00:25:55] And it's interesting to hear how others have navigated that [00:26:00] when we haven't had the support. But those of us that could be on that level didn't make it there. Because we didn't have that support. So it's interesting to have that contrast in how others have been able to work through it. Yeah. But I'm sure it came at a detriment to their mental health as well. 

[00:26:14] That's why I say I went through a grieving process because I realized I needed this, I needed what we're now providing and just really getting started. we, it doesn't, it did not and still doesn't exist except, I mean, there's little pockets, but it's getting there. Yeah. But talking about it. But, so think every other profession helps itself and we, we don't, and so that's what we're, that's what we're doing. 

[00:26:33] But I also wanna go back to the concept of trauma. Because we all have had trauma. Even if you had the most loving, wonderful family, you'll still experience trauma because life has trauma in it. You might lose your dog, you might lose a parent, you might lose a sibling, you might get divorced, even though you still love each other. 

[00:26:48] You know, there's trauma in being alive, period. Right. Particularly people who are coaching, a couple of trainers who are, no, they, but now they're coaching other trainers. That's what they do full-time now. Report to me [00:27:00] that the level of, traumatic childhood experiences is chronic childhood. 

[00:27:04] And that's me., In dog trainers, particularly on the force free side because, it's Colleen Pilar. It's, I dunno if you've had her own. Yes, I'm talking with her in July. I'm actually very excited. She is. Shell blow your head, but Anyway, she's so amazing. she is the one who pointed out to me in a very, I mean, I kind of sense this, like I wrote a little, I love doing little memes in my spare time. 

[00:27:22] And one of my memes was, often a dog is a child's first experience with love. Oh my God. Yes. Because it should be your parents. Right. Somehow a dog gives you, because a dog at least sees you. And wants to be petted and it wants to be affectionate. So I became very passionate about defending dogs because that was the only place I got love in my house. So that's a traumatic childhood and I know that it was, I've done a whole lot of healing. I'm almost 60, but I'm never let go of defending dogs. I mean, that's the one thing, like if I see a dog abused, I will interject myself if I see it happening in front of it, you know? 

[00:27:54] Absolutely. it's that connection and, and that early experience of it's unconditional [00:28:00] love for me, I, I completely experienced that. That was, I had cats growing up and that was my first experience of unconditional love. And they love me no matter what. And so when you experience that, you just, you feel that fierceness of, they are a helpless animal and I need to advocate for them cuz they cannot talk. 

[00:28:16] So who else is gonna do it? But then somehow we're still not considered professionals, even though it's our entire career. And it's more than that. It's our heart and soul as these young. Yes. And Colleen, pointed out that because of that early trauma, we get into helping and rescues and saving dogs. 

[00:28:31] Like I came out of rescue, we fostered 400 dogs. I was very serious about it in Texas. then you get into the dog world and the trauma is, again, back in your life because what's happening to the treatment of the dogs, either by the owners, probably not because they called us, but still they're doing what they saw on TV as we know on bad television. 

[00:28:49] Right. so you're witnessing that early, early trauma of the one thing that saw you. Oh my God, I never even, you're blowing my mind. I got this from Colleen. So, cuz the brain, you know, [00:29:00] understands that level of trauma. And I think it's adrenaline rush and, stress. Yes. Stress like so much. The good guys or the good relationship seems boring and too smooth. It's too safe there. Isn't that, that fear? Oh my God, yes. We could go into a whole thing about that, but then we get into dogs thinking, oh, this will be fun. 

[00:29:19] I love dogs. I love that. I love them. As opposed to an electrician. They might like how electrician works, but they don't, they don't love it. You, there's a certain level of passion that you can only hit with that. I mean, so that's why it's so painful when you get it and no one warned you. And so what do we do? We go back into the trauma trying to, I think, fix it in a way we're trying to fix our own trauma or re like recategorize it kind of, yeah, no, for me, that's what Colleen said that I wanted to point out. So our exquisite ability, those of us who work in whatever behavior training, when we can see and feel a dog suffering by their body language, we, the best trainers have a very, like, don't do that to your dog. 

[00:29:56] I can see him the, just the hunching or the very [00:30:00] lick Lipping. Yeah. Very subtle. We feel it. We feel the dog suffering and we see it and you can't unsee it. But we see it all too well because we're hypervigilant. We had to be hyper. We're in that trauma response. We had to be hypervigilant if you had a crappy home because you never know or you had to fight flight fawn. 

[00:30:16] And I've learned fight. I grew out of it fighting. I think it's, some anger is healthy and women are not supposed to be angry. But I was pissed. I remember looking at my family like, do you not treat me like that? What is your damn problem? so my impulse is to fight and fight for dogs. And now I'm like, I'm trying to like hone it and listen to myself. Laura Donaldson calls it, um, cognitive reappraisal, which I teach reactive dogs, cognitive reappraisal. Like, take a deep breath and think about it.  

[00:30:41] As an example, I was, I just did a really nice presentation for an international group. I thought it went well. I got great feedback. I had nothing negative. And then a man slides into my dms complaining of all things, oh God, he's not listening. You know, it was just a regular webinar with my little face in the corner and slide my face and it really tired him out trying to see his face. 

[00:30:59] Like, [00:31:00] you don't, you don't go into a woman's dms and say shit like that, man. Just do not, do not comment on how we look or how big or small our face is and what the hell does that have to do with what you were presenting about. Oh, I just have so much rage right now. Like, oh. and then I thought, you know what? 

[00:31:16] You're not worth my energy. This is your, this is your problem. And I didn't, did not. Take away from my confidence or my, all of the positive feedback that I got, which was good, 99 wonderful things and one nasty thing, but younger me, tired, me, exhausted me would've been crushed, right? I thought, what's wrong with my, what I have to do, I have to fix it. 

[00:31:34] And, and that would've been the one thing you would've festered on and thought about and, and you would've ignored all the positive feedback you got. That's how I was in my past lives. And I think they want that. I think they want us to shut up, basically. Always. We were trolling want us to shut up and some of us are just, we can't, you can't set us up. 

[00:31:50] I was, um, speaking with Tabitha Kucera from Chirrups and Chatter and I, we had a whole discussion about how, you know, we're just, we're not meant for everyone. [00:32:00] And I have had to tell myself that repeatedly of, I am not everyone's cup of tea. I am not meant to make everyone happy, but the people that do like me and, and do agree with me, Those will be my biggest supporters. 

[00:32:11] And those are the people that matter. But the the ones that don't, they're gonna keep falling off to the wayside unless they are really determined to drag you down, they're gonna let it go and drop off and go harass somebody else when you don't give into it. no response. Yeah. And, and that's been a matter of me, you know, protecting my mental health and just block and delete because some situations there, there is a time for a response and to acknowledge someone, but a lot of times it's not worth your energy. 

[00:32:36] It's just not because what, what can come from that, aside from maybe opening up their perspective, but that's also not your job. That's exactly, yes. This is what we're talking about in our advocacy. We're teaching trainers don't take on the weight to the world. You already have the weight of the world. 

[00:32:51] Yes, you do so much. And I say that we are the kind, we're we are the, infantry, women of kindness, cuz most of us are women in the [00:33:00] industry. We carry the industry, but cause we're women and cause we live in a patriarchal society. 

[00:33:05] We are, we are told to put ourselves last as moms, as spouses, and now as trainers and who's been defending us. That's why, that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. Who defends us? Well, we're trying to defend the dog. That's something that hurts us to our core when we see them being mistreated. So it's like a, it's a raw wound that we go into every day. 

[00:33:24] Right. And it can be healing like those dogs that I rescued and fostered, that was probably more healing to me than training because they were gonna be euthanized and they were puppies, you know, they had done nothing wrong or very young dog or whatever. that I do think, but even I can get outta control. 

[00:33:39] Right? And then it's just an onslaught of tragedy. It can be like, we are also interviewing trainers who don't have this heartache. they're, I mean, they might be there, but they've managed it and they control their schedule and they. Have exercise and they eat real meals. 

[00:33:53] They're not addicted. Cuz that's another way to get through this is to get yourself addicted to something. Food, alcohol, well, and it's, you [00:34:00] know, I have my own experience of relying too much on marijuana while I was a walker and a trainer. 

[00:34:05] And I have never talked about that publicly until right now. But it's because I would get so trigger stacked throughout my day of working with clients all the time and handling intense behavior cases, coming home to my tiny apartment and having to then work with my own personal dogs and shitty neighbors. 

[00:34:25] And it's just, we get to the point where you're like, I just need to numb everything because I'm thinking of so much all the time. And so we, we do turn to other ways to turn that off so that we can actually feel normal, but then it just, it stops us from thinking of and processing it in a healthy manner. 

[00:34:45] I wanna go back to where you mentioned about courses and, and not touching on the mental health aspect on that, because that is something I am very passionate about, because I have done several, professional training courses and neither of the ones I have done [00:35:00] touched on that at all. And I'm curious where you would like to see that change and how you would like to see that change. 

[00:35:06] Because for me, I think it needs to go hand in hand with the training programs and. I think before they even start the training programs, they need to really say, Hey, this is what you're getting into. These are the statistics of the burnout. This is how we navigate it, and, and having that handholding. So I'm curious how you would approach putting that into a training course. 

[00:35:29] Well, my first thought was that's nothing thing happened because it's money. People are making money. But that's not necessarily true because it depends on who's running the course and what the real reason for the course is. If it's just money, they don't care if they just want your money. And if you, you know, drink yourself to death, who cares? 

[00:35:43] That exists, even in the positive side, it's, it's a money making endeavor versus that passion that we have. Oh, yes. But there are, there are some schools that I think that, you know, maybe that's what we need to do as advocates is go sit down with their director and say, you know what? Other schools have suicide hotlines. 

[00:35:59] You know, within [00:36:00] their curriculum, they have counselors on staff, they have real life, you know, learning and like how to be an entrepreneur and how to keep your head above water while you're making $35,000 a year. If you're working your butt off, you know, one client, one dog at a time. Maybe if you're making, if you're doing classes and a lot of classes, which are exhausting, maybe you're making 50. 

[00:36:18] If, but that's, but then you're burnt out and like very poor. Like what kind of life is that? Like, would we have entered this? we're never off unless you physically take control of your calendar and block it out, which we don't do because we have that one. 

[00:36:31] It's a passion and we wanna save all the animals. And two, we're told not to take care of ourselves as a society. So it feels we're never taught how to structure our calendars in that sense, unless we work with a business coach. And that's more money. Exactly. That we don't have, I almost think, Colleen talked about this too, but she calls it chasing certifications. 

[00:36:47] for a long time, yes. When I was working part-time as a trainer, if I didn't have the husband that I have who he makes a nice living and he's enormously supportive, I could not take those five years off. Right. Very aware of that. that is if you don't have a partner who [00:37:00] makes more than you do, because they probably will, cuz we don't make a lot of money and even so, and if you, we don't have kids, you know, I would've not been able to take that time and recover and do what I'm doing now. 

[00:37:10] you own the store, you're the you if you don't show up and if you don't get new clients, you're not making money. You may not pay your car payment. You can't pay your expensive dog food cuz you know the good dog food to get. But chasing certifications is very interesting and Colleen talked about this. 

[00:37:24] Colleen Pilar. she has a Facebook group too on colleen pilar.com, she said that some of that is, she can describe it way better than I can is, Kind of like maybe this next course it'll make sense to me, right? Yes. Maybe this will touch on what I need. Maybe this will be the, you know, ignition. 

[00:37:40] I need to really turn it on for me. Oh my God, yes. And very few are talking. They are talking about it now. Barely. We're barely still just, that's why I said I went through a grief process. Like why did we let all of these trainers leave our industry and not fight for them because we were too exhausted? 

[00:37:54] I'd love to know, cuz I'm one that left 

[00:37:57] I have to struggle with. But if you [00:38:00] asked me, you hadn't been a trainer and you said, oh, should I become a trainer? I would really pause and say I can't. I don't right now. I don't know. Not unless you have friends who are not trainers. Support system. But, so if we come from a place of trauma, the dog or the cat or the horse or whatever, kind of rescued us, and then we end up defending them and then we throw ourselves back into it. And no one is telling you, no one, no one talks about it. And then you are kind of befuddled and you do get tired and there's no, when you're burn out, it's like a blackness and I, it's like a depression, a deepest, darkest depression where you can't, you know, even if you went to a counselor, like one session isn't going to cure it. 

[00:38:37] You need, I took five years and I had no intention of coming back. I was really, really having a good life and I'm having a good life now, but only because of the advocacy work that Right. Well, and you know how to moderate the business aspect and, and to really prioritize yourself because you've had those outlets and, and you're helping other trainers. 

[00:38:55] So you're, you're more in it now. That has given me, like, I, when we first started, I would jump out of bed at, [00:39:00] I never did that as a trainer. Well, first of all, you're exhausted. Because we do love to learn. Good trainers love to learn. We're just not learning this stuff to help ourselves. 

[00:39:07] Right. Very well. Cause it's not being offered recently. But, I love the peer to peer support because I, I was really bad about trying to solve my friend's problems or other doc. Well, have you considered, well, this is what I did. Mm-hmm. And I still, to this day, and I went through two months of training, peer to peer support training, I still, I start typing out something. 

[00:39:25] Well, what I would do is, and that's not helpful. No. People wanna be heard and they wanna be seen and that you can share your experience For sure. And that's what we do. That's completely different. Like, we've learned a whole new language of how to respond that I did not know existed. And I wanna teach that language of response. 

[00:39:42] To other trainers so that you're not, we're not caught up in that. Well, here's, here's what I did. If you were to, it's a trauma response almost. Yes, I think it is. It is because, oh God, you're blowing my brain with this, Annie. But it's true. It's, we, we have that deep feeling of, okay, they're in this [00:40:00] moment, we need to help them. 

[00:40:01] And so here's what I did, here's what I helped. And we throw it all up and it's just like, here, let me help you. Let me help you. But that's our trauma response of we just here, here, here, here, here. When it's like, oh, wait, no, that may not be what they need. Their trauma response might be different, and we actually might be making things a lot worse. 

[00:40:18] And that's not seeing them or hearing them. And it is that, it's that, hamster wheel. It just keeps going. And now whenever I have, I'm much better at listening to my body. Your body knows before your brain does, especially a trauma response, will come out of your body. The body keeps the score. Yes. Love that book. 

[00:40:34] Just real quick, one of my trauma response I only realized in the last two years was a trauma response because I've studying trauma was I started studying for dogs and then I thought, well, I need to look at myself here, even through tons of therapy. And I feel pretty happy in life and pretty satisfied. 

[00:40:48] I had a trauma response, a startle response for years. I've been married, a wonderful man for 25 years if I'm tired or if it's a Wednesday and he opens the door and I didn't expect him to, like, I didn't hear him. I can [00:41:00] jump same. That is a trauma response. And I react and I'm just, I snap. 

[00:41:04] And he's like, whoa. And I'm like, I shit. I'm sorry. That caught me off guard and that was my initial reaction. And living with that. Like my husband has the patience at the saint. So he same, he adapted, he clumps down the hall or in the middle of all of this starting advocacy center and really taking deep dive on human trauma and my own responses in spite of having felt like I studied it all my life as a survivor. 

[00:41:28] One, he thought I was asleep. Cause he gets up before me and he's on the other side of the door and he's opening as quiet as he can cuz he's a great guy. And I have a heavy coffee cup with my hand on the other side and I didn't see him. And he opens the door and I screamed and I, here comes the coffee cup. 

[00:41:42] Like I fight, I'm a fighter. I had to stop like override your lizard brain. Just not hit my husband in the face. Right. And that scared me. Like it's just me and him and Covid. It's not, no one else is here, right? But learned trauma, you cannot control that. 

[00:41:56] And so then the only thing that has helped me is cold showers, [00:42:00] which I hated, especially in the winter in Utah. But just a blip. Like some people only take cold showers. I can't do that. . So that gets into our own physical trauma response. You have to be aware that you're doing it. And it took me a very long time. He knew that. But we never really, it's just kinda, I'm weird. 

[00:42:13] That's just a weird thing. I do. I also traced it back to a memory of my jerk big brother who was abusive. He also grew up in the same horrible circumstance that I did. but he was physically abusive, like not sexually, which so many dog trainers also had sexual assault in the background. Right. Or get the dick pics in their dms. 

[00:42:32] Or, or, or, or actually preyed upon. Damaged and harmed so many. And then the women who didn't believe the women, it's a secondary trauma. Okay. Oh, yeah. But I traced my trauma response not only to the chronic trauma that you cannot get out of, kind of like a dog feeling that you learned helplessness, except I learned to fight like a dog. 

[00:42:48] Right. You know, because my brother was physically punching me all the time. So you dog trainer and you know, you had trauma as a childhood, chronic trauma, or it could be a one time incident, but it's usually chronic and you have no way to escape because you're the [00:43:00] kid. 

[00:43:00] I would encourage you to start looking at yourself very, very carefully. Not in a judgment way, but just say, what is my, you take care of yourself. Yeah. What is my lizard brain seeing to keep me safe? That is a safety response. Me jumping and smacking back was a safety response. Right? it's just, well, and, and, and then we. If we've lived through situations like that. And then we see that on social media with dogs, we see those guilty, stupid fucking videos all the time of dogs made to look guilty. And I'm using air quotes cuz it's utter bullshit. 

[00:43:31] and, and just things like that that triggers that trauma response. And, and I personally cannot watch certain videos, specifically with, with aversive and balanced trainers. They, I cannot stomach them. I do not wanna see that dog stressed. I don't care if someone is stitching a video together to show a well, here's how I'd handle that situation. 

[00:43:53] I don't care cause I don't wanna see it. I'm al I've already, you know, unfollowed or muted you because I don't wanna see that again. It's too much. It's [00:44:00] triggering. And I think a lot of times we, people are better about censoring it now. But for the longest time we didn't, and we were constantly exposing people to that. 

[00:44:08] And then we'd have these big explosions on social media comments blow up and people wouldn't know why. And it's just like, well, you just showed them a lot of things that are very triggering. Of course they're gonna have this response. And there's just that. I hate social media. I love it and I hate it, but there is just such a disconnect when it comes to this kind of stuff. 

[00:44:28] I'm the same way. And that, to me, so deeply empathetic and compassionate towards animals first. And then you find your tribe for people who also feel that way. We think there's a lot of us, a couple of missteps along the way, but I think it's, I call it secondary trauma. When you see the dog, you know what the adversive trainers are doing. 

[00:44:45] We, you know, the pain is suffering. I'm the same way. I, I will remember that image for a month. I, I wake up in the middle of the night thinking about a dog. I don't wanna see it either. It doesn't mean I ignore it. I know it's happening and I fought against it my entire life. We don't need to see it to know it's happening though. 

[00:44:59] But so [00:45:00] you then speak up on social media and say, this hurts. We don't usually say, this hurts my feelings, but that's what it is. This, this concern, this is reactivating my trauma response. Right. You say, I don't wanna see it. I know what they do. And then you get, just be nice to them. You, we need to be inclusive. 

[00:45:15] That is the most disgusting thing that our side has done, and I don't understand it. And I think it goes back to money. Let's all just get along so we can all sell more shit to their side and they can sell maybe their shot collars and we get a few of the. I think it's traumatizing. It, it's gaslighting to say you're not seeing what you think you're seeing. 

[00:45:34] You're just, if you just would have them over for coffee, you'd, and let them explain their tools. Just be nice. It being nice is telling a trauma survivor to take their trauma and shut up. Right. Don't bother me with your crap. As I got another agenda, which may or may not be so in my, my courses or whatever, it's right. 

[00:45:53] And since I have been very vocal about that, do not tell me what I, that I'm not, that I'm, don't see what I know I'm seeing. I know that [00:46:00] animal is suffering. Don't tell me it's something different. I know what I'm seeing. I have eyes and don't tell me to be different, right? That I don't want anyone in my life. 

[00:46:06] And I do memes about it and then they all come from me, the ones that I haven't blocked and then I just go block some more. But really it's that kind of secondary trauma is toxic as hell and very prevalent on the force free side. Do not tell us to be nice to people who abuse animals. Right. And I, so this is interesting, this is an interesting thing to get into because I don't disagree with you. 

[00:46:27] I think that there we don't need to be following these people that use these methods. I, for one, you know, I do Woof Cultr. I am a very big advocate in force free. And I will never, I do not follow people that use those tools. And if they end up switching over and using those tools, that's an immediate unfollow. 

[00:46:46] I don't need to ask for why they did that. As soon as I see it, you're done in my book. I have plenty of balanced people that follow me and I think that's great because they're seeing the ways we approach it. They're seeing the accounts that I share and, and [00:47:00] use my platform for. They're constantly exposed to it, so they're not gonna not see it. 

[00:47:04] But when I see accounts follow me that, you know, have prong collars and shock collars, I'm just like, oh, like why are you following me? But I've learned to switch that in, like clearly they're coming here for a reason. Maybe they might be considering leaving those tools, whatever it is. But I'm happy to see those people following more positive accounts and not being a dick. 

[00:47:25] Yeah, that's because that's the thing, it's if you're gonna come onto my account, don't be an asshole. Respect my account. And the ones that do do, and I'm like, okay, you can stay here. And the ones that don't, I'm like, all right, goodbye kick rocks. but it's not, you know, a lot of the times we hear like, keep the conversation open and, and we need to have bridges. 

[00:47:43] It's, I, I think it's okay to, cuz how are people gonna cross over if that bridge isn't there? I think it's great to have that bridge. I think it's great that we. Keep it open so that people can keep coming over and crossing over. But I don't think that we need to go and say, Hey, don't like what you're [00:48:00] doing. 

[00:48:00] Come over here. That's not our responsibility. We can have the resources and provide that and have that information and leave it open to people. But the second someone is mean or clearly not interested in learning, those people don't belong here. Those people, they can get information elsewhere. There's so much information everywhere, but that's not our job. 

[00:48:20] I agree. It's not our job. And I remind trainer cuz that our job is to find each other, find our, our kind, the kind people and help each other out. That's where my 90% of my focus is. and that's a lot more productive and healthy and life versus fighting against people who are gonna harm dogs. And I have said many times, and in memes, I know to make memes the world with every one of them is that we're there is a vulnerable pop population. 

[00:48:44] Predators show up. Yes. It's like the Boy Scouts. 80,000 lawsuits, 80,000 boys were harmed. So because people are vulnerable and it's a vulnerability. 

[00:48:55] Yes. Dogs are vulnerable. So we also have to be aware that there are predators in, and [00:49:00] they do not care about the dog. They see it as a way to make money. Yes. I was just gonna say that. Or make a lot money. So I agree with you that for like them following you is you, is different to me than. 

[00:49:09] And if they're receptive, they're receptive, or if they're laugh following or hate following, we don't know. But as long as they're not intruding saying rude shit because Addison immediately goodbye. that's up to them while they chose that action. But that's different than to me, than telling me, you go be nice, Annie. 

[00:49:22] Go be nice oh yeah. No, don't go be nice to them. They don't deserve that. They don't, you don't. That that is not on you. It's like, if I knew my neighbor was beaten, I thought of his children. Well, first of all, I'd do something about it. Right. I'd report report. but I'm not hanging him over for coffee. 

[00:49:36] I'm not being nice to him. Right, exactly. And, and that's the thing. Yeah. It, it's, I see where people get confused of like, oh, well, you're telling me to have a conversation. No, we are not saying, have that conversation. Do not invite them over for coffee. That is not your job. But if someone asks a genuine question and, and they are curious about switching over, then by all means, but don't. 

[00:49:58] Engage if you know [00:50:00] it's going to deplete your meter and that is going to run you out because not everyone deserves your energy and your time. And, and that is something that social media and and being very empathetic and compassionate people, we feel that we owe those people that time and that response. 

[00:50:17] No, you don't. And no is a complete sentence like so many people say. And you know, no answer is an answer. I've had women say it feels rude to block. I'm like, they're rude to you, to your face. They're coming onto your space and being rude to you. That's so interesting. And I think that can go down to trauma in society and how women are treated completely. 

[00:50:39] Phone response and people pleasing response. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. it's, it's just that, oh wait, no, I'm sorry. I, I you were being mean, but here, let me, you know, break it down and explain it for you and shrink myself down. I don't even say I'm sorry unless I really know that I did something to hurt somebody's feelings. 

[00:50:56] but I did not apologize for my existence anymore at all. I'm [00:51:00] just, it's like I'm taking up space. If you don't like it, block me. You know? Yes. And, and you're allowed to cuz it's your space. And they want us to. Society does not as a whole, and it just keeps you keep narrowing it down. Society says women should be silent and, you know, be pretty and be soft and keep sweet. 

[00:51:15] There's a whole Mormon F D l S thing. Oh, I watched that whole thing. Yes. keep sweet and pray. That was, I had so much rage after watching that. Right. It's, that is a whole other conversation that a lot of us don't need to hear because it is traumatic. Yeah. It, it's just, it's for me, when I hear people saying, and we don't have to go down this, but I do wanna touch on it, it, it's, when I hear people say like, oh, it's not being used correctly and it's not. 

[00:51:42] That's like the nineties and saying, oh, well you just didn't use the wooden spoon correctly. You didn't use the right belt. Like it's, that is abuse. You were just telling me that I didn't abuse my dog correctly. I didn't punish them correctly. Like why gaslighting? Yes. Yeah. It's so much to wade through. That's why I come [00:52:00] outta toxic stew. Like I love that. We've had some psychologists talk to our members group and one of the psychologists said that she's, she works with children at risk in another country and she says she does not wake up in the morning, flip her computer open and see, you're so stupid. 

[00:52:13] You're using clinical psychology wrong. You're using the tools wrong. And they're not at each other's throats because there's licensing, there's formal training that they all have agreed on. And if you find out that a colleague is harming children, In their care to report them. Report. We don't have anyone to, we can't do that. 

[00:52:29] We don't have anyone to report it to because, not in this country. Not in this industry. Cuz we're so unregulated. We don't deserve to be considered a real profession, therefore we don't deserve to have regulation. But you know, Joe Schmoe, who's lived with dogs 30 years, can go and teach everyone else and, and have a platform. 

[00:52:47] And don't get me started on the he who must not be named that Bonks dogs. Like yeah, it's makes millions, well right. And we're just like, well let's talk to the person cuz they're on social media and they're easy to get ahold of and attack [00:53:00] when it's like, ow. 

[00:53:01] But who's like, what is that really doing? And who's time is it wasting? Like it's wasting your time and your energy. But always follow the money, including look at board directors of any organization you belong to because there's one popular organization who's director is on their training director of PET Safe, and they say, this is positive reinforcement. 

[00:53:21] Go look. I mean it's, go on LinkedIn and look up. That's where I found it. Look up all the board members of any organization except for something like Professional Guild because they're upfront. They drew a line in this sand and said, we do not endorse these tools and if you're, you sign up for our group and we can't you using it, we will. 

[00:53:37] There will be a consequence. The other groups are kind of like, nos nudge, we need, there's, it's a little blurred line that's hair split. Then go look at the board members and see who's making some money, and if they're making money off Pet Safe equip more, whatever company that sell, there's tons of companies that sell these collars. 

[00:53:53] Because there's big money in it, then you need to ask some questions. Just ask, why are you on that board positive reinforcement trainer? I don't understand. [00:54:00] And I'm sure it's gonna be a lot of humming and hawing and Oh, hmm. but it's like, okay, but why can't you give a straight answer for that? 

[00:54:06] Oh, don't, don't encourage me. I don't need to be contacting people. But, but I think, oh God, just, it's, and we wonder why our mental health is so worn down in this profession. The trust and, and being able to feel like we can trust superiors and mentors and, and people that are leading the industry. 

[00:54:24] It, it's hard to figure out who to believe, who we can talk to about things, that it's not gonna get back to somebody else. And. Oh, and eventually what we want for our members is to have, like, everybody has the, you know, whatever memberships they belong to, they have their logo on their website. Eventually we wanna have, we call it the PAC Phoenix Advocacy Center. 

[00:54:44] You should yes. Mean they've either gone through some training or they're committed to kindness. Could you just, it's a safe space. It's like a stamp of approval of like, this is a safe space 

[00:54:55] cyber bullying, yes, you can respond in anger, but if we see you bullying, in fact, there was a [00:55:00] member, um, that had transphobia crap on their website, on their Facebook openly. And I'm like we say, we do not discriminate against marginalized groups. Period. End of story. It's blasted through the group because I will not, but that's bullying and it's dangerous for those people. 

[00:55:14] So I am, we do not put up with that shit. They have to agree to shit when they come into their group and right is in our group and it just, do they think, cuz it's not in the group, people won't see that. Like if you're a racist or if you're a homophobic person, get outta here and you know you don't belong in this industry. 

[00:55:30] Yeah. That's my line. I don't want you in my group. Not welcome. Cuz that's mean and it's cruel. Just cuz you don't understand it or you don't like it, you still don't get to be cruel about it. At least that I, if I see it right, stay Right now we have 200 members and if we stay gendered members, but I feel like there's, again, there's more of us like that are fine, that are caring, that aren't completely on the floor in a fetal practition. 

[00:55:50] But, you know, we might have been in the past, but we have some extra spoons that we wanna help. so that you don't get to the place we got and you leave, you know, people, good people leave and I just want that I, if we [00:56:00] can provide. That sense of safety and, camaraderie that's been so sorely missing forever. 

[00:56:06] you know, please come join us for members. So Annie, if you know, maybe someone is just struggling right now, who cares if they have been in it for 20 years, maybe they are just now considering getting into a training program. Where do you recommend they start and how could they connect with you? I have in here, it's gonna make a lot of people very angry. 

[00:56:27] I, in the very back it's, I, I call it who you can trust with your dog. What's the book that you're showing just for those that might be not watching? Yeah. Positive Training for Aggressive and Reactive Dogs. And the 17 experts in here, the interviews, which are, are just fascinating. 

[00:56:40] By the way. Some of the experts did go long, um, but we didn't have any like space, so, uh, they didn't give us a limit, so I just, I didn't cut any interviews. Oh, wow. Thing since they did cut a few, but they're gonna put up a website. I don't have it yet with the entire interviews. Like some are four or five pages, which is really Oh, that's incredible. 

[00:56:58] Did that. But I list in the [00:57:00] back of the book organizations that you can trust schools. Okay, great. individuals, it's, I think I, us Canada, some Australia and the uk. because I think that's really important too, you know, like, absolutely. Let's put a, that's the other thing. I want trainers who are listening to here think about really hard, where you put your money, you know, the next course that you're gonna take, the next accreditation. 

[00:57:18] Go and look at all the board members, find out really what they believe because there's, like we said, nudge, nudge, wing, twink, it's all fine. Go. And you have every right to do that. Email the board members and say, well, how come you're on this? what do you really, what's really happening here? And same with courses. 

[00:57:33] Look at every single course because it's, is it really force free? Is the person presenting it? Maybe it's, cuz I've been an investigative journalist, it's not hard to find this stuff out. Oh, sometimes it's, sometimes they're stuff. Right. but that's what this book is for, is for owners and trainers, but mostly owners to get to the bottom of the, the truth. 

[00:57:50] I journalists seek the truth. and that's what I hope this is as well as step by step, you know, and the greats of the industry, like Malena, they too, I think introduced us, uh, with separation anxiety and, [00:58:00] just like every major thing is. That owners tell us they have problems with in studies and an experience, our experience, is touched on in the book. 

[00:58:08] Doesn't mean you're now a certified separation anxiety, but you can start. Great. Well I'm excited for that book to come out. So I will be sure to plug everything in. Um, if anyone wants to connect with you now, where's the best place to connect with you? 

[00:58:23] Would that be the Midnight Doc Walker's Facebook group? that's a good place, but if they can privately, they can either email me at annie@phoenixdogs.com and it's P H E N I X. No, o dogs. And then, my Facebook page, people message me all the time that we're not necessarily friends cuz that I have it set so that they can you're, you're just like a page to follow. 

[00:58:41] And I, I always respond. I try to always respond unless they're rude and then they just get blocked, rude, or mean. Well, it has been such a pleasure having you on the podcast. I hope that anyone listening just really takes to heart your mission and knows that they are not alone in this and they can absolutely [00:59:00] manage their career in a way that it prioritizes their mental health. 

[00:59:03] And I love everything you're doing. I'm so grateful that there are people like you in this industry really advocating for professionals and advocating for mental health in this field. Cuz we need it. It takes, more than a village and we're gonna get there. I know. It just takes time. And I'm just, I'm so honored that I gotta have this conversation with you. 

[00:59:22] Well, thank you for having this forum because this is what you're, you're talking about all the time on this and it's crucial. And I invite people to check out our website, the phoenix advocacy center.com. and to join us in the members group, we just ask you that you're current or retired, professional, dedicated to force free methods, period, end of story. 

[00:59:39] and don't be a jerk. And if you like today's episode, you like what we're doing here on the Leashed Mind podcast, please feel free to follow us on social media, subscribe to our YouTube channel, tag us share with a friend, like just give a little r plus and we'll be back with another episode.