Embracing It All w/Karen Chapdelaine

Season 2, Episode 1, your host Mandy Boutelle engages in a heartfelt conversation with Karen Chapdelaine, a renowned dog trainer known for her empathetic approach.

 Karen, shares her unique journey in the dog training world, highlighting the importance of showcasing both triumphs and challenges. This episode delves into the refreshingly honest perspective of normalizing the struggles and flaws inherent in dog training, offering a sense of solidarity and reassurance to listeners. Mandy and Karen explore the role of mental health and vulnerability in the pet care industry, particularly in the wake of 2020, a pivotal year that saw many grappling with the challenges of starting their businesses amid a global crisis.

The discussion evolves to cover the transformative shift from a competitive to a collaborative mindset within the dog training community.  Karen shares her insights from her personal experiences as a dog trainer and business owner, candidly addressing her journey with OCD and emphasizing the significance of self-care and setting boundaries.

This episode is not only informative but also imbued with laughter and light-heartedness, as Karen's relatable and gentle approach to dog training shines through.

 Listeners are invited to join this enriching conversation that promises a blend of professional insights, personal stories, and an uplifting message for all dog trainers and pet care enthusiasts.
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https://thetimelessdog.com/
Follow her on Instagram - @thetimelessdog
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Transcript

0:08

Welcome back to the Leashed Mind Podcast. I am your host, Mandy Boutelle. On today's episode, I have a conversation with Karen Chapdelaine from The Timeless Dog. If you are on Instagram or TikTok, then you will know Karen because she has such Good. And you feel good when you watch her reels. And I think that's because she has a very empathetic approach when it comes to dog training, like a lot of us have. but Karen has really made a point of showing both the successes and the failures of, dog training as a parent and as a business owner. I think it is really refreshing to be reassured that we all have the same struggles. We all have relatively the same flaws and that's okay. Normalizing that is huge because then I think we'll get to a point where we can stop beating ourselves up and comparing ourselves to others when we all kind of struggle with the same things. So we discussed that as well as the role of mental health and vulnerability in the profession as a whole, especially since 2020 when I feel like that was a lot of like a period where a lot of people were starting their businesses. And that was already a time where everyone's mental health was, like, spread very thin. But we also talk about the evolution, that we have noticed from having that competitive view to a more collaborative view., a lot of us started our careers. When I say a lot of us, I mean those of us that are in our, like, early to mid 30s and, like, late 20s, where a lot of us started our dog training careers. Probably around like 2016 to 2018, things were really competitive. There wasn't that collaborative like, Hey, you are sharing a client with me. Let's compare notes. This is how I worked on this. Do you need help with this? And inspiring and, and collaborating with others. So we talk about how we've kind of noticed that evolution through social media with trainers. And then we also discuss, Karen's insights from her own journey as a dog. Trainer and business owner while managing personal challenges like her OCD and the significance of self care and setting boundaries in running a dog training business because a lot of us kind of just go into this blind. A lot of us don't really know a Much about entrepreneurship or being a business owner. We just want to train the dogs. So we talk about how that kind of affects us and how we've worked through those hurdles and how we continue to work through them. So I think you guys are really going to love this episode. Karen is so funny. There's so much laughter throughout it. So let's get into it. Karen, I am so excited to finally be talking with you. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for having me. I'm, I'm so excited. This is gonna be so much fun. I know, we've, so, for those of us that, you know, don't know who you are, Karen has her whole Instagram of KarenCJ, her and her German Shepherd. She runs the Timeless Dog training. So a lot of the times I think a lot of people know you just from your very relatable reels on Instagram and just the way you like approach dog training of very gentle but fun and reassuring people that like we're flawed and it's okay. Oh yes. I think that's why we connected right away too. I think so. I agree. always like to make sure I'm showing. The failures, because I feel like sometimes we don't as trainers. We like to show the pretty picture. Perfect. Yeah, I want to be like, I'm a disaster. This is why you should follow me and love me. Trust me. Well, and I think that really, people appreciate the vulnerability, and they really do like, 2020 was a real turning point for a lot of us, and just really like looking at our mental health, and it was right there, and we couldn't run away from it, and so it gave us a chance to be vulnerable on internet, on social media, and I think that's how a lot of us have connected, because we've seen other people open up. Absolutely, I completely agree, and I think it's, it's been a really neat experience. Especially for me, where I live, I'm so far away from most people. So to have an online community to lean on is wonderful. Right, and I'm curious, since we're talking about community, and I just, started probably around the time I did with training. What year did you start? I didn't become certified until 2017, I believe it was. Um, but I had been, you know, dabbling in the training before then. Okay, yeah, that's like around the time. I think I like got a toe in in like 2015 and I went from there. like back then, there was not a dog training, like, Online, like maybe Facebook groups, but I'm not someone that likes Facebook groups. there's just, I don't know, too, too, too hairy. I, I, like, there wasn't really much of like an online support. There wasn't really anyone to communicate with and network with. And no one was really online. And like, I remember when I did my training program, were like, oh, there are these people you can follow. And like, here's these Facebook groups. I'm like. I don't want to wade through that and like try to find my people. Like it's so hard. and now Instagram, it's like, you just find one person and then you're like, oh, and then there's this and then there's this and then it's like, it's beautiful and it's awesome. And it makes me so happy and excited for the younger generations that are just getting started. Yeah. So I think especially, I don't know if it was the same experience for you or not, but when I started. Very competitive. Yes! Oh my god, I just had this conversation. And it was either my clients, you can't have them. So, and now I just feel like it's, Oh, yeah, I worked with them. Here's the back, you know, I think it's, it's a beautiful evolution I think I'm seeing. Yes! Oh my God, I'm so glad you talked about that because I literally just recorded an episode with uh, Mikkel Becker from Fear Free Pets. and we were talking about how the industry, it used to be very competitive and it was a lot of like Oh my god, I remember, like, pre 2020 and people being like, this person posted on social media and the post looks like mine. And it's like, okay, well, we all talk about the same shit, so how are we not going to have similar content? Like, come on, be nice. There's only so many ways to teach a dog to sit, so. And there's so many ways we can regurgitate it. Exactly. I love that it's more like, okay, here is how I handled this. How would you handle this? And asking opinions and getting ideas and not feeling inferior to one another, at least I hope that's how people are feeling now. I think unfortunately there will probably always be like a little bit. that because we're humans and we always compare and have self doubt, but I, I do agree with you. I feel like we're starting to come to a place where we can just talk to each other and it's not about who's better than the next person. when I, it's interesting because I'm curious if you feel this way too, because I feel like for a while there, maybe it was like peak 2019, 2020. But, like, it was all about, like, oh, how many followers do I have? Like, I'm growing. This person has this many followers. Oh my gosh, yes. And, like, but that doesn't really equate to, like, you knowing what you know. We all know the same stuff. It's, it's just a matter of content. Yes, exactly. I completely agree. And, like, I'm a relatively small account, and I, I would rather a small quality group of people that have 50, 000 followers and they're all going, that's wrong, this is wrong, that's wrong. Which, I mean, you're going to get no matter how many followers you have. and that's something about, like, why I really wanted to have you on the podcast is because you have really learned To lean into your niche and lean into what you're good at. And like you just said, like you have that small quality and that is important. It's not about like catering to the masses and being able to accommodate everyone. It's not realistic. and it's not fun because then I feel like you're not being true to yourself and I also create content that I want to watch and that makes it more fun and it's not, it doesn't feel like a job and it's just. This is, this is how I want to learn. I hope you have fun, and I hope you enjoy it, and maybe laugh. Right, and just, I don't know, it's, I think it's also your tone of voice, like you're just so soft spoken and gentle, and like, every time I see any of your reels, I'm just like, if I were her client, I would feel so, like, heard, and just like, Oh, like she told me I don't need to be perfect with my training and it's okay, I mess up and my dog ops out like, okay, like, and that's what people need. They don't, you know, it's, it's a different approach. And I love it. It's just people need that tenderness. Oh, absolutely. And I, I think sometimes we get so caught up in the perfection and also like, yes, we're, we're dealing with serious things. Yeah. But just because it's serious behaviors doesn't mean we have to be. So strict and not have fun. I, I like to live by the motto, if you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong. So it should be fun and you should be enjoying it. And if you're not, we got, we got to change something. And do you, speaking of what you specialize in, do you specialize in reactivity and do you handle aggression too? Yes, reactivity and aggression. I prefer the bitey dogs. You need a sense of humor for that. Oh, big time. Big time. and I think that also helps my clients as well because they come in with these dogs and they've had traumatic experiences with them and they go, they're so broken down and they feel like there's no hope sometimes. And I like to just remind them that, yes, you can have these big feelings. I'm not going to discredit them. They're there and they're valid. But let's find a little bit of humor in this, and then we can make it a little bit lighter, and it doesn't feel as daunting as a task anymore. and just, you know, the heaviness of, you know, my dog bit someone, or they had a, you know, big explosive emotional reaction, and, and, The mental circus we put ourselves through when those things happen and being able to say like, no, it's okay, like, we got to move through it, but we're not going to beat ourselves up about it. Because what's that going to do? Exactly. It doesn't solve anything. It just kind of, think it also kind of holds us back from getting results. Because speaking from personal experience, my Guy CJ is a reactive dog, and I went through that whole stage of feeling like a failure. I'm a dog trainer How can I have a bad dog? Right. And once I kind of let that go that any dog can bite, any dog can react, I found grace for myself And I want to give that to my clients that there's a light at the end of the tunnel even if it's this big right now. I love that. That's such a good outlook to have and you just, it's, know that it takes time to get that kind of positivity and develop that. That is a muscle that needs to be strengthened. Absolutely. Oh, big time. It, it took, it took years for me, especially with that whole, I'm a dog trainer, I shouldn't have a dog like this. and once I let go of that, and now I'm not saying that there aren't days that I'm just like, oh. Yeah, you're human. Yeah, we're gonna have those moments. Right, and I think, like, just, oh god, navigating that and then navigating being a business owner and, Entrepreneur and wearing all the hats, like, let's get into that. a lot. It's a lot. Yeah, and like, I know firsthand, like, it can be so daunting when you look at the big picture of everything that needs to be executed and it's only you doing it. And. A lot of the times we just get into that fucking shame spiral of, well, this person's doing it this way and I'm not operating that way. I should be operating on that level. Cause I started around the same time they did. So why aren't I there? And it's just, everyone's journey is going to be different. Big time, big time. You, you hit it right on the head, because there's also to kind of loop the two together. There are people that have. started after me, and they already have a larger social media platform, and so there can be those moments that I go, okay, well, what did I do wrong? But then I have to go, that's their journey, this is mine, and maybe one day I'll get there, and if I don't, that's okay. It's going to be all right. Yeah, and it's, it's not to lessen your skill set or lessen your knowledge. It's just, you know, some people don't like being as active on social media. Some people It's exhausting. Yeah, like, I hate it. There are times where I'm just like, I just want to delete everything off of my phone and throw it out the window. Like, I hate it. There are days I would, oh, I would join you. We could just throw it right out the window and keep going. But I think a lot of the times The biggest thing is the comparison factor, for me at least, that's something I noticed in the beginning before I was even on dog training social media. It was just like, the critiquing and the comparing, it's like, I know what I'm doing. So why am I beating myself up like this? And then there's also just days where I deeply miss the over filtered and over saturated just photos of Instagram. I hate the reels. It over complicates all of it, and you can't find the nuance in it either. And then there's always those accounts which, no shame to them, all positivity towards them, but they're like, this hack and this audio, and I'm like, Can I just post a picture? With my own audio? Yeah, exactly. Um, but I, I really want to dig into your professional growth and your mental health journey. Um, I know you told me that you have OCD, so I'm really curious to just hear how you've navigated that while being a business owner. Well, I love the, like, light eye twitch, like, okay, okay, we got this. So I have dealt with OCD pretty much all my life, um, and my specific form or outlet, I guess you could say, is more related towards numbers, and that can obviously have an effect when we're talking about repetitions and things like that. So finding a way to balance that with actually dog training and then running the business. can be a challenge on some days, to say the least. Um, and especially where, like, I am very fortunate, I'm very lucky to have a small training facility. And another way that my OCD presents itself is through, um, like locks and light switches. So I have to do like locks four times and so there's unfortunately times where muscle memory, a client comes in, I close the door and I go to lock it and then I go, Oh crap, here we go. It's going to be okay. We're going to get through this. Um, but I, I think it's just important again, like I've said to, to just remember to give yourself grace in those moments. And I try to find the humor in it as well to. To be like, you know, this is what my brain decided today and I don't necessarily have complete control over it. And then I kind of equate that to dogs. This is what your dog's brain decided to do today and they didn't necessarily have control over it. So that's one way I try to make it lighter, but also Help my clients understand myself and their dog. I love that. I love that so much and I appreciate the Finding the humor in that too. And but that's so true. Like some days we wake up and our brains just not we're not connecting. The synapses are firing off and we just can't do it. Like, yeah, exactly. And it's, again, just like kind of giving myself the grace and finding that happy muscle. It's, it's taken a while to find the humor in it because, you know, there's been people that have been like, Oh, you don't have OCD. Oh, just move on, get over it. Things like that. Exactly. But you know yourself better than everybody, just like you know your dog better than everybody. So, you know, stand up for yourself in those moments, and if they ask for more justification, move on. Those aren't your people. You don't need to justify yourself to anybody. Yes! Oh my god, I knew this was going to be a good conversation, but it's true. It's, I feel like a lot of us, you know, we get into this profession because we love animals. That's, we kind of got to. If, if you're doing this and you don't love animals, why are you here? Um, but it's not the money. Ain't that the truth? After being in it with my husband and us both having the same career, I'm like, one of us needs to make more. But it's, you know, we get into this because we are empathetic people. We, we love animals. We love helping people. If you're getting into this and you're not doing those things, then you're going to hate your job, but, but it's a reason we get into this. And then a lot of the times we get really stressed out with work and things pile up. And then our brain just. Short circuits, and we can't handle it all, and going through all that, and I'm explaining this because that is how I noticed I had ADHD. Because, and I talked about this in episode three, but I went from being active all the time and being outside all the time, working with my hands and then being in front of a desk and I was like, Oh, what's this? wasn't here before. I used to be able to think and not have all these problems. Like, why am I crying? Because my brain is so overwhelming. Like, but it really. Doing this job and wearing all the hats, it really pulls that in front of you and you have to look at it and acknowledge it because it's just going to wear you down and you're not going to be able to do what you want to do with your career. One million percent. I think especially it was, like you said, 2020 when we all had to look at ourselves in the mirror for an extended period of time. Um, I also deal with really, debilitating, chronic migraines, and as a small business owner, for the longest time, I felt like I have to push through this, I have to show up for my clients, I have to be there, but then it got to the point that I was, I was regularly cancelling people because I was violently ill from migraines, and then that was kind of like, okay, nope, enough, I'm going to take care of myself so that I can take care of my clients. And it's not always easy, but we've gotta, we've gotta take care of ourselves. And I know that like, it's, it's hard having to cancel because we need money. It's our income. Exactly. If we don't work, we don't have money. Um, and that's how we get into that habit of, I need to be productive, I need to push through it, I'm just being weak, maybe I, I just need water, I'll be fine. I don't need rest. Oh no, what's that? That wouldn't be the thing. but we get into that and then it's so hard to get out of that cycle once we get the wheel going and then it's just I envision like the hamster running and then the wheel just keeps going and the hamster's like Against the cage, like, oh. Exactly. And then, but then in the same exact breath that I'm pushing through, I'm telling my clients, You've got to give your dog a chance to rest. You've got to take breaks. You've got to relax. You need downtime, yeah. And somehow I'm not hearing this for myself. You know, it's like, what is going on? The amount of times I have had this exact conversation and we have this connection of like, Oh, what? I'm like my client? Why? I deserve the same downtime? What are you talking about? That can't be right. But it's like, oh, and I'm so glad you mentioned the migraines because I just connected just now. Like, when I was peak, like, training and walking full time, like, go, go, go, go, like, leave home at 8 a. m., not back until 6 or 7 p. m., I used to get horrible migraines. And I never even equated that to stress. I thought, like, I just wasn't eating or drinking enough, which might have been the case, but Yeah, that's true. And I think, like, a big thing, like, and I believe most people that will watch this will understand, but I just want to make it very clear. A migraine is not a headache. It is not a fucking headache. It is blinding. You can't even be in a bright room. Movement makes you nauseous. Like, you just want to put like a hot pack on your eyes and like sink into your bed. It's horrible. Luckily, I had clients that understood, but there's always that one. Well, and like, there's always that guilt of like, Oh, 100 percent yes. They think I'm making it up. I'm using the migraine excuse when it's like, No, I, I really, I can't drive without feeling like I might, you know, go off the road. Exactly. Really, and, and, Oh, it's a headache. Fluffy still needs to walk. I'm pretty sure Fluffy will be okay. Right. And it's like, I have had instances where I've pushed myself, and I'm sure you have too, with a migraine and showed up to a client's house and the session went horrible. And it's like, so why did I do this if it went to shit anyway? Yeah. And we didn't make any progress and I just made myself feel worse. And then it also goes back into that kind of self doubt idea of, do I really know what I'm talking about? Can I help these people? Because you start to doubt yourself because I should be able to push through this migraine and still be of quality when that's not how this works. No, and that's not how successful people operate. They listen to their bodies. They take care of their bodies so that they don't get to this point. Which, if you're watching right now, you should probably take a sip of water. So, just saying. I know. Why don't we just do it every time that you and I take a sip, they take a sip. Oh, yes! I love that. I feel like a lot of the times It's very easy to get in our own heads and, and really let that run wild. And I am the first to admit I will overthink every single thing. I loved, and I say this very sarcastically, every training session I would get in the car and that is where you start picking it apart and you're like, did I explain that right? Did I? Give them too much information. Did I joke too much? And then it's like, did I use the right tone? When it's like, Oh my God. Okay. They paid you for the session. They like, just, they take everything you say, you know, as God's word. Like, that's how it is. Like. You're the professional, they are coming to you, they are not overthinking it the way you are overthinking it. And, I had a conversation with Mikkel , and, and we were talking about how, you know, our clients can only handle so much per session. And, lot of us, we come into the session, especially when we're, you know, green baby trainers and we're very passionate about what we do. We're just like, here is all this information. Don't know how I expect you to process it, but I'm going to drop it all on you. And then you have all these things to work on when it's like they can probably digest and handle like three things. Exactly, and that's kind of what I do, so the first thing I do now to remind myself is that these people sought me out. I did not seek Look for them. So then, not to like discredit that or anything, but it just kind of takes some of the pressure off of me. Like they chose me. And then one of the things I do is I always keep a session to three items. And I always explain it to people that I know for me, after three things, I, I start to forget what the first one was. So it's absolutely important to know. to find that balance. I'm curious if that bleeds into your work life for you because for me, like, you see my whiteboard, it's like I have it funneled and literally, well, we're not looking at it today. It's a long one today, but usually I only have like three or four things that I do because that is all my brain can tackle. After like four things, I'm like, like, I can't do anymore. I think in a way, like, I'm kind of bleh. opposite of you, I can't write it down. I can't write it down because then I instantly get like overwhelmed and I just go, I could see that. I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. Seeing it listed out is overwhelming. Totally. It is. I mean, I love that idea. I wish my brain would accept it, but for me it's like, exactly, exactly. So I just have to go with like, I know if I don't get this done, I'm going to obsess about it and I'm not going to be able to relax and then that's going to manifest in me standing at the front door, locking and unlocking it for half an hour. So that's for, that's how my brain works, but I wish, I wish I could use that whiteboard system. That looks so nice. Well, and that's the thing for me, and this isn't to convince you to do it, but, for me, like, that's how it was. Like, cause Josh got a whiteboard, and I was like, that looks daunting as fuck. Like, I don't wanna do that. then I remember going to sit down and like write out my goals for the year. And I just started sobbing because I couldn't think of goals. That, like, I wanted to achieve. I couldn't get to that place of, like, what are some things, like, I just, I never set goals, and it's like, well, yeah, that's why I'm not getting where I want to be, because I'm not, But also, like, planners never worked for me. I have so many unused planners or, like, planners I tried for, like, a week or two. I don't think to open the book and, like, go and do that. See, and planners, a planner is my best friend. Oh, funny! That's so funny. Oh my god. So, it's like, that's what I'm talking about. It's different things, which is the opposite. But it works for us, and that's alright. I love that little counterbalance. You're just like, this doesn't work, but this works. That's so funny. I want to use a planner. I think that's so cool. And I would love to have the aesthetic of having my little planner. Oh, because they're so fun. They're so cute. I love the designs., but it's also like, if you could see the rest of my desk, it's chaos. So it's like, to me, the whiteboard looks like a dream, cause it's up off the desk. It's all like contained, you know, so it's very tempting. The idea, because like, you have like this nice line down the middle, and it's just like, to go through all those steps is too much for my brain, versus this. It's already got the lines. It's already made! Yeah, I don't have to really think. I love that. Yeah, just what works for me. That, and that works. I love that we just explained that, because I feel like a lot of people are probably like, I don't like a planner or I don't like the whiteboard, like, it's just in there, but what it is, those are just two different forms of brain dumping. Exactly. It's just getting our thoughts out in different ways. And I think having a place to do that and an outlet for that helps so that it's not spinning in here the entire time. Absolutely. Because that is what will happen and that, for me, you know, flight, freeze, fawn, mine is. Freeze. So if I get overwhelmed with my thoughts, that's what happens. I freeze up and then I start crying because I just can't handle it. Exactly, and that's the difference for me because like the whiteboard has like unlimited potential. And it's like I could go, I could make plans five years from now versus the planner. It's like you got 30 days, Karen. This is what you're working with. This is all you got to focus on. So that's why, that's what works for me versus unlimited potential. I love that you start doodling mountains and stuff. Oh, for sure. For sure. I mean, I have a whiteboard in my training facility to like Be able to show people something. Notes and stuff, yeah. But then like sometimes i'm just like oh a pretty flower You know when i'm like, okay karen calm down I know when I got my whiteboard i'm like I need all the markers I don't know. Obviously. I do. I want every color. Yeah, but then we always just end up using black because like, green sometimes can be seen, sometimes it can't. The blue runs out, so. know, my husband's like, why is everything written in pink? I'm like, that's what I was feeling this week, okay? I needed some pep. And it needs to bring you joy, all right? that's a great way to jump off of that and explain to people that just, it, it's really leaning into how your brain works and. It's okay to do that. Like, that is how successful people operate. They aren't just challenging, I mean, they were challenging ourselves, but it's not in a way to our detriment. And we're not breaking ourselves down with, you know, trying to do it the way everyone else is doing it. Yeah, you don't have to force yourself into anybody else's mold. You can create your own. And that's really important. And again, that's another thing that comes with You know, time and age, deciding that, you know, the planner doesn't work for you, so I'm going to do this, or maybe, maybe post it notes is what works for you. You, you have to figure out what works for your brain. And that's all trial and error. You know, I, I can't tell you the amount of planners I have tried, and it. Finally took the whiteboard and I don't even know how we got to that point. I think it's because my husband and I read The One Thing, which I will recommend that book to anyone. It's so helpful. Um, in just like narrowing down to like, what's your one thing? And in daily, what is the one thing you focus on? Because sometimes everything can be too much. Maybe we just need to focus on one thing at a time. Yeah. Um, and it's so funny because I was talking with Josh the other night, and he was like, that book really changed, like, your entire outlook. And I'm like, I don't know. Like, that guy needs to give me some points. I will just sling his book left and right, like. Well, I'm going to have to go check it out now. I'm going to have to go, go get it, so. It, well, and it's like, that's how we approach training, though. It's one thing at a time. But we never make it our, like, back to ourselves of, like, one thing at a time. It really is, like, that simple. And I think especially from, like, the ADHD standpoint, there's also kind of that level of, like, shame of, I bought another notebook and it didn't work. Who cares? So you bought a notebook and it didn't work. Maybe it will be the next one, but putting that shame on yourself isn't, again, it's another thing to, it's hard to get rid of, but you know, I like my stack of notebooks, so. and it's like I say as I'm using my fidget spinner to keep me on track, like Just so everyone knows, every time I'm recording, this is what I am doing. It is on my desk and I'm spinning it to keep my thoughts going. And this is something I talk about a lot, it's habits. And I think we have this notion that habits have to be the exact same every day, because it's a habit. But, for those of us with our beautiful, different brains, We don't have that option. We get to change it and have like habit A, B, C, D, and I have all those different habits of, you know, this morning I woke up and I did not feel as shiny and sparkly as I usually do, which, you know, is rare. Um, it's maybe one week out of the month. I feel that good. I woke up and I was just like, I don't feel like doing my usual thing. I do, it's not, I'm going to feel pissed off and it's going to irritate me. So do your backup plan. That's okay. And that's not making you any less than you're still going to be productive. Maybe you need a longer morning. Maybe you need to, you know, get outside without your dog. It's just, we're not allowing ourselves to have that time for ourselves. And let's get into that. think the big thing you hit on, is the idea of doing stuff without your dog. Because I think, especially, again, going into that idea of I'm a dog trainer, I have to do it with my dog all the time. When I stopped, mean, like, I still walk CJ, but when I stopped always taking him on every single walk, it was kind of a Oh, I, I actually do walk faster, it's like you get to know yourself again. Tune in. Yeah, because I know, at least for me, as a reactive dog owner, most of the time on the walk, I'm, my attention is on my dog. Hypervigilant. Yeah. Exactly. So when you give that up. You get to know yourself again, and it can be scary. It can be. But to honor ourselves and give ourselves that grace we talk about, you've got to get to know who you are. Oh, I love that. And, and it really is like, we have to be hyper aware of our environment, constantly scanning, I kind of think of it as Like, when I'm walking with Fern, I'm kind of tuned in to her frequency. I'm not tuned in to myself. I'm not really checked in with myself. It's her and what's going on. But that's like, sometimes you just gotta decompress on your own and go for a walk by yourself, and I feel like when you suggest that to people, a lot of the times they're like, I love walking with my dog. That's great, and you should, and that's great for you guys, but you also need that time to yourself, and I think you hit that on the head of like, in this profession, we have this, no one's telling us this, but we have this thought and feeling of like, I am professionally doing this, therefore my dog needs to be my shadow, and we need to do everything together, which is super awesome, and I think that's great, but that's not the case, and you deserve the time with yourself to unpack everything. You don't just deserve it, you need it. Yes! It's the only way you're going to get to that next place or that next step, it's you have to remember. what you like outside of dogs. I know that's wild, but there are things outside of dogs. Absolutely. That's so important and I'm not saying that like go leave your dog at home go do your own thing, but it's just little ways that we want to show ourselves love because it is a matter of showing ourselves different ways of love and I Have talked about this in other episodes of I'm the first person I would break a promise to don't deserve To, you know, and if a friend did that to me, I would feel so jilted and upset. But why do I not allow myself that space and do that to myself? And so I had this conversation with Josh, my husband, and I was just like, you know, we, we want to get in shape. We want to be more active, like the rest of the world. And it's, you know, I finally was like, oh, I made this promise to myself and I'm going to keep it like. Because this is going to better myself, it affects my mental health, it affects how I sleep, and, know, talking about sleep, like, you do not need to be working until 11 p. m. You do not need to be on social media worrying about what someone is posting on your business account at 10, 11 p. m. at night. Those aren't business hours. and honestly, some of the best business advice I ever got was from you to take the work email off the phone. honest to God, life's changing. Yeah. When? Life's changing. was a few months ago. Oh, hey. I, and maybe a little bit longer, but I was like, you know what, I'm going on vacation. I, I know. That's a great time to start. If it comes up, I'm going to look at it. And I know it's also can be sometimes a point of contention in my marriage that, hey, we're out to dinner. Can you not be working right now? And so taking it off my phone, it's like, wake up now and I'm not immediately diving into work. It's just like. This is lovely. Oh, I'm so glad you said that. And I'm so glad that that's worked for you. But see, it really is, it's like, it's that being able to let go of that. hard. And it doesn't have to be like an earth shattering change. It's just taking the email off your phone. And it makes a huge difference. Like literally, logging out of your email account. That's all it is. Like, I still have my personal email on my phone, and that's fine. I need that for shopping. Well, I mean, come on. Come on. Not doctor's appointments, it's for shopping. Oh, no, definitely not. But, I'm curious, so now do you have, like, windows of when you check your email, and when you operate that, and then you're able to leave it? So I, I do still need improvement in that area. Okay. Um, but yes, yeah, I do. I go, okay, you know, 10 o'clock I'm going to sit down and do this and then I'm going to leave it. And then I do not check it or if like some, some of my tech, excuse me, some of my clients have my phone number, not all of them. but if they text me the very first time they text me, I let them know, hey, after six o'clock. I will not be responding to you. I'm not trying to be rude, but see you tomorrow. So it's, it's tough and setting those times and it, it's tweaking little things in your life, but it does make a big difference. I, the client texting, that is one thing that like, that was a hard thing for me when I was a walker and a trainer. Because you're kind of on call, and they want to like, you know, have this quick question, and oh, this happened, and it's usually not an emergency. And if it is, you shouldn't be the person they are contacting in an emergency. It should be their vet or the emergency, like. And I think it's one of those things that we need to do it. Sooner rather than later, because unfortunately for me, another big change that I made, which a lot of businesses and people are always like, how does that work for you? But I actually took my phone number off of my website entirely. Yeah. Um, because there was the, the catalyst for me was somebody, wasn't even a client, called me 14 times in two hours. And it was just because their dog was pulling on a leash. Oh, F off. Exactly. No. So after the 14th one, I was like. You are not a client I want to work with. Really? Yeah. Um, so it's, it's, you could, you'll still get clients. If you take your phone number off the website, they can email you. Most people prefer it. Um, I also like the paper trail idea of it so that I can go back for the ADHD brain and be like, wait, what did you say you wanted to work on? Right. What did we talk about? Yeah. Um, well, yeah. And, and. That's such a nice boundary for you to have with your business and you're right It's not going to affect your you know income and and who's contacting you You're right. Most people want to contact via email unless it's urgent. They will call you but like even that like when people Reach out via email. They're not expecting an immediate response if they are they have very unrealistic standards of the human race right But that's the thing of You know, a lot of times people will say like, Oh, I don't want to take my work email off my phone. That's how I communicate with clients. Okay, well then maybe let's consider having another form of communication. Maybe let's consider using a certain app. Or, you know, texting within a certain window. And that's Cause it's like really the only times you're going to need that conversation. And to have Anything communicated from your phone while you're mobile. It's going to be quick things of like, Hey, I'm here or like, Hey, I'm going to go around the corner and then I'll pop out like those things. But I feel like just being able to say, like, these are the delegated windows. When I check my email, it helps have the boundaries for you with your work, but then it also has the boundaries of your clients of this is when I check my email. This is when you will get a response and they're not going to be mean to you about it. It's your business like So they're going to be respectful of like wow They're really professional and they like really, you know care about how they operate their business And another boundary for me is that if it if that is something that upsets that person Then you're not, yeah, you're not a client for me. I'm allowed to have a life outside of this business. when you are my client, I'll give you my number. But it is for these circumstances. But if you can't respect that, I can't respond to an email. The second you send it, then this isn't going to work. I think it's also, I think, I will be honest here though, that there are still those days that are deeply ingrained from back when it was competitive of, I have to email this person back. I need this client. Right. I need clients. Because I don't want them to look for somebody else either. Right. Open there, yes. I gotta email them before so and so can email, you know, it's like you gotta undo that as well. Yeah, that's well, and I think that is a great thing to touch on because when you're just getting started, you're trying to, you know, you're hungry, you want the clients, you want to just take what you can get. But think it is good to still have that boundary when you're getting started so that you don't have to like advocate for yourself afterwards. And then, like, have these boundaries afterwards. Because then your clients, you know, older clients are gonna be like, What the heck you doing? Like, I used to be able to text you at 8 p. m. at night. it's a learning curve. It's a learning experience. You know, I feel like growing up millennials in the generation we did, being on social media, it was always, like, quick and aim. And all these quick responses that, like, we're used to that instant. And it's, like, Like, y'all, like, remember when we didn't have cell phones? What a time. I know. I, like, you could leave and someone couldn't talk to you. Yeah. But, no, you were great. I think another one of the, like, the best business advice I ever got was from a business professor I had, who is amazing and I still keep in contact with to this day. He always said that don't discount your prices. Don't sell yourself short. From the beginning, because if you start out, the way you start out is the way you're going to have to continue because people are going to expect that of you. So it's the same idea with the emails and the text message. If you start out allowing it, it's just going to continue. And it's harder to backtrack from that after it's already been, you know, a precedence for so long. Absolutely. Oh my god, yes. Let's not lowball our services. Oh my god, 100 percent no. No. And I think that's another thing baby trainers can struggle with sometimes, especially when they're like just starting out or maybe they're not certified yet. They don't necessarily feel like they deserve it. But like, Like they have to pay their dues. Yeah, which like, look, yes, you still need to get the education. You still need to understand what you're selling because we are selling a product at the end of the day. Right. But, the other side I always think of too is that if I come into a new area, And I'm, I'm not going to use realistic prices, but if I'm saying 50 for an hour session, but then the trainer that's been here forever is doing 100 an hour and then they're going to be like, well, what the hell? Now you're driving my prices down. So it's a symbiotic relationship. You have to check the market. Yeah. Well, and like to piggyback on that, like a lot of the times, so, you know, we had our walking business and we had certain rates. I don't even know how much they were now. It was so long ago. I can't even think about that. But there were times, you know, we had like the middle of the road like, okay, people are usually charging this much. Like we're going to charge like around there. And then you'd see this new green little baby walker come in charging like 25 a walk. I think ours were like maybe 36 a walk. And I'm like, what are you doing? why are you doing that to yourself? And it's not. first of all people are going to be like, why is it so cheap? That's sketch Second of all people are going to be like am I getting enough value when i'm chart like paying this little And third of all you're doing yourself a disservice because everyone else in the market is not charging that low And so like think of the time and the work and the you know That's a thing that like a lot of people don't think of all the work that actually goes into what they're doing And and they just want to accommodate Clients and their wallets, which I completely understand in this economy but we gotta live especially like for dog walkers too because I believe you and I took the same walking course through, um, it used to be dog tech. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm aging myself again. Um, and, and like, I remember when I would tell people, well, I'm a certified dog walker and they'd be like, They think that's bullshit. Yep. Like, no, it actually is a thing. I took a course. That's what you should be looking for. Like, it's not a joke. So you, you do have to, you know, know what you're talking about, but at the same time know your worth. Yes. Well, and we're investing in our education. So why wouldn't we? Have our prices reflect the knowledge that we gained and you're so right like I remember When I had times I was like, I am a certified professional dog walker and they're like that's not Anyone can be a dog walker. I'm like, they can, but I'm not going to abuse your dog. Like, that's the thing. Those of us that weren't certified. Oh, I have so many horror stories. Like, oh gosh. Yeah. And I still just remember like part of the course. I don't know if it was the same for you or not. But, um, when I took it, we had to interview our instructor. for the position of becoming a dog walker as like if we were the client and it was like I remember I was asking all of these questions like do you provide the treats? Do you do this? Do you do that? And all this stuff and like other people were like I never even thought to ask those questions and I'm like well you want to know if you're going to need to bring the treats for the dog if there's allergy like there's It's not just clipping on a leash and going. Right. Yes. And the people that think that, you know, those are the people hiring the rover walkers and WAG and things like that. But if they're coming to you, it's because they want a professional. that is educated in the topic. And that's the other thing. If you are, you know, cutting up the treats and you are paying for the treats, that goes into that pricing. Like, the time it takes to cut the treats up, the expense, like, I feel like a lot of the times, like, we forget that, like, we do a lot and we pay for a lot in our business. But then we're like, why aren't we making money? Right, and then it goes back into that spiral. I'm not enough. Why aren't don't why don't I have enough followers? Why don't I have enough this that next thing and like because we're not charging enough We need to know our worth right and in oh, yeah let's go back to social media and followers and that and you know, that's that is a place of There, there is some worth in that and there is some value in that, but and that's a great leak magnet for getting new clients, but at the same time, those people online aren't paying you. And I see this so much that I see so many trainers following other trainers and I'm like, that's great. We need that support. But don't worry about what another trainer is, you know, saying about your business because they're not your client. Your, your audience is not dog trainers, unless you are like a mentor or like you're doing a podcast like this. You know, my market is dog trainers. I talk to dog trainers. That's my people, not, like, it's just different. And so for dog trainers, I feel like a lot of the times, and when I say dog trainers, I mean professionals in general. but it's just, it's, we get stuck in the wording things in a specific way because we're worried about how a dog trainer is going to perceive it when it's like, that's not how a dog owner perceives it. And they're not going to understand it that way with all the behavior and the training lingo, like really simplify it and break it down for them. And I think that's why, like, I can have so much fun on social media, because for me, I, I'm a very open book, a very honest person. At least I like to think I am. I haven't made a dime off of social media as far as clients. Yeah. My, any, any The biggest monetary amount I have made off of social media has been through brand deals, and so I also am always very honest about that, because, you know, I'll, every once in a while, it seems like it comes all at once, I'll get all these products that I have to unbox and show, and I make sure that I tell people, this isn't real life, this, this doesn't happen every Tuesday for me. And, and. My, the content that I put out is for fun, for, you know, a 30 second educational clip. But I'm not getting my clients off of social media, I'm getting them from the next town over. So I don't stress as much about the quality, or the right audio, or any of that. Like, let's relax everybody and just have some fun again. Right, and, and I think that social media is, It's the place for sharing tips and, you know, sharing wins and, and sharing hard moments. But it's not, you know, you can market your services there, sure, but that's not gonna be your main source of income. And I've seen so many awesome trainer friends of mine get so caught up in the, I didn't make enough reels today and I needed to film this reel and oh, this asshole commented this thing on this reel. And it's just like, Why are you letting that take your energy? Like that, you can turn your phone off. Those people do not, they are not paying for your time. They don't deserve it, like. Exactly, that's, that's exactly it. Because, it's also in the name. Social media. It's not work media. It's, it's, we're supposed to be having fun with this. It doesn't have to be this complicated. If I have to do a reel more than three times, I'm out. I'm out. I have better things to do with my day. I will say though, unfortunately, sometimes the OCD kicks in and I'm like, we're gonna do this. Perfected! We're gonna get this. But, so, it's let's have some fun again, people. Right. And the other side of it, too, is then, like you were saying, you get the people that come in and go, Because they take your 30 second clip as Bible, and this is the only way to Fix this problem or deal with it when it's like, oh, cause like, I think today I posted one about like the up down game and I, I haven't checked that I posted it, but I'm sure somebody is going to be like, well, why aren't you doing this? Or why aren't you doing that? That's great. But how's that going to work with my ex pound dog in this situation? It's like, well, you wouldn't do this. Exactly. Or maybe this is just like part of the plan, not the whole plan. So. Just like how this is like on. smidgen of my business, not my entire business. Like, I don't know, maybe get crazy, book a session. We could figure this out some deeper ways. But that's social media in general. I feel like it's it's toxic. But then like the dog training community, it can get more toxic just in the sense of like, are so many angles I could approach this with. Um, Oh, let's just dive in. A balance versus positive. That, watch us set the world on fire right there. Well, there's that one. Okay, we'll go with that one then. You lead the way. But that's true. I mean, and I'm, I am Woof Cultr. Like, I was in the middle of that fire. 2019, whoo, you wanna, you wanna see me, like, upset, like, go back to 2019 and 2020 of, like, all the balance people, like, almost every popular balance training account, I have them blocked. There's a reason for that, like, it's because, like, they were either resharing my shit and then bad mouthing me, or they were, like, commenting, and then, like, all the cluster of them started going, and thank God social media, At least now, I don't think it's like that now, but that was a test for me in navigating that, because a lot of people were like, That Ditch the Prong t shirt really pissed people off, well, and I think the other thing is, and I've said this a few times, like, is that I think we've just forgotten how to talk to each other. Yeah. And I think that's why, like, I'm really excited about this experience, and I mean, we, we agree on things anyway. But, like, We have to be able to talk to people that we disagree with. Yes. And that doesn't mean we agree with them. But the only way we're going to actually change the dog community is by having meaningful conversations. There are, there's still plenty of people that deserve to be blocked and I don't want to talk to you. Let's be honest with ourselves. I don't want to, I don't want it to seem like the people that are interested in positive, like come to us, let's have a conversation and because I think I'm in the same exact breath. This might get me cancelled, but there are things that I can learn from the balance side of things. Because if I don't know what you are about, how can I be against it? Like, I have to be educated on it. Now, I'm not going to use those methods, but I am not going to go into it without an educated point of view. Right. So, and I think if I'm willing to learn from you. in some ways that opens up the conversation for that person to learn from me in some ways. And that's how we change things by continuing to build on that. Oh my god, yes. That's, that's so right. And, you know, it's, these people that use the aversive tools, they wouldn't be getting into the profession if they didn't like dogs, too. I mean, yeah, a lot of us have that like, oh, it's for the money, and well, And ego, and sure, yeah, I'm sure that that is the case for a lot of people, but The other side of it is they are getting into training because they care about animals and when they're balanced, they still, the right ones, I'm using a lot of air quotes because I don't know how to navigate this, but it's, you're doing great. but, but there are some that are getting their education and, and they are balanced in the way because they do know about, oh my god, they don't know about the quadrants, but it is that. So it's like, of course, there are going to be some moments of connection and a lot of moments of disconnect. And I just, I don't know. I feel like there is a lot of. We shouldn't have a bridge, we shouldn't have those conversations, and that's fine. You don't need to be the person that has the conversation. Leave that to the people that are open to it. I kind of think, uh, kind of in my brain, where my brain's headed right now, and kind of a perfect analogy for what we've been talking about is, you're a white floored person, I'm a planner person. Yeah! We, the goal is the same, but the approach is different. Yeah, and we have to be able to, like I said, I can learn things from your beautiful whiteboard and you can learn things from my notebook. but it, we have to be able to talk about the differences. To get anywhere and I think we've just really forgotten how to be white for people and notebook people. Yeah, well, and, and just be understanding of another human being like, yes, they might use different methods and this is, you know, don't cancel me and, and don't come for me with this. We'll be canceled together. Like, it's not that I agree with any of it. No, of course you don't. Everyone listening to this knows how. Much, I advocate for force free methods, but it's, I don't think that people can cross over if there isn't a bridge to cross over, and that will be my stance, I will die on that hill, because that's just, that's, how can we expect it to change if we are not being an example and just continuously yelling into the void of, you suck. Because, and that's, you know, there's no room for abusers and the people that actually use them in an abusive way, but I think it's very easy to teach those that are wanting to learn. And again, like you said, it's those that are wanting to learn. Absolutely. Completely agree. Still block the, the bad ones. Go for it. That block button's there for a reason. We're not, we're not saying you got to keep them on your page. There's not, there's no need for that. But it's, it's just, the grace we give ourselves with our dogs, we need to give that grace to other people too, and ourselves. Yes! And, so, that's, that's one off of the social media thing. The, the other is, and I'm sure you've encountered this too, a lot of old high school friends in the DMs asking us for, Hey, my dog just started jumping on the furniture, and like, what do you do in this situation? Well, I'll tell you what little green baby trainer Mandy used to do in that situation. She would send you a whole list of like things that could happen and then she realized that people didn't listen to her because they weren't investing in money in it. And so then it turned into, well, why don't we book a session? That weeds them through and shuts them up real fast. See, I, um, believe it or not, was not very popular in high school. So, from the very beginning, I had zero issue with that. I went, you didn't talk to me in high school? Mm mm. You can book a session. Book a session. Book a session. That's true, I mean, it's just, it's like they think like, oh, we went to school together, and I follow you on social media, therefore I can ask you for free advice. Again, again, you didn't talk to me in the lunch line, you didn't talk to me in English. You need the help now? Now when I'm, now when I'm, now when I'm cool, right. You can hire me. Exactly, exactly. Now, of course, there, there are those friends that, like, I did actually talk to in high school, and I'm like, look. They're your best friend. Yeah, it's like a warm off. Yeah, this one right here. Yeah. But, but the same thing happens though, cause, um, not, not to throw anybody under the bus. Um, but, like, working within family. They, uh, and I, and they don't necessarily follow through. Family is the one that will never listen. Yes, it is. And it's infuriating because it's like, I told you how to fix this. told you. Oh, yeah. Yep. And then, like, and now I've just gotten to the point with, even with family, like, no, I'm not going to help. I'm really sorry. I, I've tried. If you didn't, you can hire somebody else. And that's a hard place to get to. It is, and if my sister in law is listening to this, I love you. but, yeah, she's related to three people with training certifications who have told her constantly to, you know, not let your dog off leash in certain situations and let her charge, but she keeps doing it, and she's like, I just don't know. And I'm like, Yo, like, we have, like, approached this how many times? Like, we're gonna beat our heads into the wall with this, like, come on. What is it about, what is it about sisters or sisters in law? Katie, I love you as well, um, but we can stop the barking if you would just do some more enrichment. how it is. It's, and it's like, God, we love our family, but oh my God, just listen to me. I am the professional. think it's, it's that, like, relation of just, like, it's hard for them to see you in another light and take you seriously. you know, bless my sister in law. She has shown up with, like, a workbook and, like, ready to take notes. Get applied. Well, and I think it's also very, like, I think that's also a good thing to acknowledge, though, because it's the same with my clients, at least, I find. Like, most of the time, it's the wife that will bring the dog. Oh my god, I just had this conversation today. Yes. And then, so then I always make the joke at the end. Next time, bring your husband because husbands typically listen better to somebody else. And the wife then always laughs and goes, yeah, you're right. So it's the same dynamic with our clients too, that they've then got to pass the information along and get that buy in. Right! Yes! Oh my god, no, , why is it that like 90 percent of the time it's the wife that reaches out for the training and then, you know, the husband would be walking around in the background like now this dog does the shit and, and then it's like, okay, now how are you going to get him on board? Like, that's always the case. Then that's always, I never understood that dynamic. Well, and I just had like, for the first time, it was the exact. Kind of opposite. The wife reached out, but only the husband came, and it was two different stories. The wife was sending in the email, Oh, he's biting, he's jumping, he's aggressive, and then the husband comes in, Oh, he's never bitten, he's, yeah, he jumps, but I don't mind, and I'm like, Okay, well, what are we gonna work on? You're like, there's a communication error here, and I'm not ready to play therapist. Exactly. And boy, do we ever sometimes. You know what's funny is don't know about you, but like, I, I feel like a lot of, uh, training instructors will be like, Yeah, you know, you're going to play therapist a little bit. You'll be marriage counselor a little bit. But they didn't prepare us for the mental health side of that. And like the amount of like, awkward conversations and fights that like a lot of us have had to sit and be like, can I walk out or are they going to notice if I leave, like? And that's one of the things I really try to instill in anybody that kind of comes to me for any type of like mentoring. I always go, burnout is so real. Compassion fatigue is so real. So you have to set the boundaries now. And most importantly, you have to take the days off. Oh my god, days off. Yeah, what is that? Well, and, and it's, I am one of those people that will try to be productive on my day off. I, will get in that habit of like, okay, like, it's a Monday, it's my Sunday, It's my day off still, and I shouldn't be doing things, but like, what if I check my email? No, no, no, no, no. don't need to do that. Like, it's, why? Nothing is going to be that critical. Maybe for me with Woof Cultr, because I have to check orders, and so like I check really quick, but I check once and that's it. And that's a boundary, because like anything else it can get handled after the fact. Absolutely. I like to embrace what I call potato time, and that is becoming one with your sofa. And just turning on whichever streaming platform you want and just turn into a potato. and it's, it's, it's hard. Because like you said, there's some days you're like, ooh, probably should go out and read. Or I could, you just antsy. Yeah. Embrace potato time. important. I love that. That's accurate though, like it's it's really just recharging your cup And like we need it because like you can only run on fumes for so long before you're just like crying every single day and don't want to get out of bed and you start feeling resentful about your job, which is very easy to get into that. And I think it's also important to acknowledge that you can do all of the right things. You can take your days off. You can set the boundaries, but they're still going to be those days. Oh, I'm so happy you said that, yeah. Yeah, it's, you're, we're gonna have those days where we struggle, we're gonna have the days where you drank enough water and you still get a migraine and you have to cancel the clients and, and it's just, That's life, and we have to remember that. We're humans. We're living life just like everyone else. And that's not how you're operating every single day. Like, you're allowed to have these down days of like, okay, I'm just, I need a mental health day. I have had plenty of instances, you know, Josh, have completely Different work ethics and it complements each other so well, although he works a little too much sometimes, um, But it will some days he works on his day off and I am like, well, he's working I should be working and I'm like I need to be productive like him because if he's working to get ahead Maybe I need to be working to get ahead and it's like no no no no no it has taken me years to break that and be like, that's him. We don't operate on that level because when we operate on that level, we crash and burn. And we hit a very dark period and it's hard to come back from that. So let's not do that. Let's not. No, you're right because, yeah, it's the same for us. There are days when, you know, we'll be outside doing something and go, Oh, I should go out and help him. And you get that guilt. But it's like, no, that's what he chose to do. He didn't ask you. Exactly. Yeah. And, and I like my, my potato time. I love that. I think everyone should just embrace them. They get one potato day out of the week. By order of Karen. Well. This has been such a fun conversation. It's, I'm just, uh, I, I hope people really see the value in this and understand that, like, whether it be, you know, ADHD, OCD, just, Overwhelm mental health and, you know, physical health, disability problems, whatever it frickin is, you can still enjoy your business. You can still set your business up in a way where you are enjoying it and not hating it. It's just, it's a lot of trial and error and learning what works best for us. And maybe that is, you know, connecting and networking with other colleagues. Just asking them what worked for them and taking little tidbits that worked for you. That's all this is. And that's why I'm doing this podcast, because I hope people can just like take little pieces out. Absolutely. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Karen. It's been so awesome. Thank you It's been so much fun. And if you like what we're doing here on the Leashed Mind podcast and you want to help others find us, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel, follow us on social media, give us a rating wherever you got your podcasts, whether that's leaving a review on Apple or giving us a star rating on Spotify, or just leaving a little R plus on our Facebook page. It's all appreciated. Thank you. And we will be back with another episode. Um,