Transforming Challenges into Triumphs w/ Hayley Martinez

In Episode 5 of Season 2 your host Mandy Boutelle welcomes Hayley Martinez from Nakama Dog Training. Haley shares her remarkable journey from launching a pet-sitting business at 15 to evolving into a professional dog trainer. Her specialty lies in addressing aggression, anxiety, and fear-related issues in dogs, a field demanding both skill and empathy. Haley candidly discusses her shift from balanced, compulsion-based training methods to a more humane, force-free, reward-based approach, underscoring the importance of evolving training techniques in response to growing knowledge and experience.

The episode delves into the challenges Hayley faces in balancing her thriving business with personal struggles, such as ADHD and anxiety — a relatable topic for many. She emphasizes the necessity of charging what one's service is truly worth to prevent burnout, a common issue in the dog training industry.

This conversation extends to the value of community support among dog trainers, the significance of continuous learning, and the pursuit of certifications to enhance credibility and skills. Hayley's insights into managing a business while prioritizing mental health and personal care offer invaluable lessons. This episode is a must-listen for anyone in the pet care industry, particularly those navigating similar challenges in their professional and personal lives.
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Transcript

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Um, Welcome back to the Leashed Mind Podcast. I'm your host, Mandy Boutelle. On today's episode, I have a conversation with Haley Martinez from Nakama Dog Training. Haley shares her journey from starting a pet sitting business at 15 to becoming a professional dog trainer specializing in aggression, anxiety, and fear related issues in dogs. She discusses her evolution in training methods moving away from balanced, uh, compulsion based training to more force free reward based approaches. Haley highlights the challenges of balancing her business with personal struggles like ADHD and anxiety. Which a lot of us can relate to the importance of charging what she's worth to avoid burnout as well. Because I feel like a lot of the times we forget to charge our worth when it comes to the help, information and guidance we are providing with our clients. We need to have a livable wage and I think that usually will. of our stress because we are so stressed about money, but also trying to help out our clients and then we get so burnt out trying to balance all these plates. So we really hone in on that. Haley also touches on this Significance of having community support among other dog trainers and the value of continuous learning and certification within the field. we also talk about the complexities and rewards of working in dog training and emphasizing the need for personal care while maintaining and working towards professional growth. So I hope you guys like this episode. Let's get into it. Haley, I was so excited when I saw that you applied to be on the podcast and now I'm excited to actually be talking with you finally. I feel like we've been internet friends in the same circle for a couple years now. Yeah, it's really great to finally kind of meet you. I, I've been a big fan of the Woof Cultr stuff. I have about eight or nine shirts and the hat and, um, and then I'm also a big fan of this podcast. I've been. Looking up all the episodes and listening to them recently, so thank you for both of those services. Well, I am honored to be able to provide that. Um, I'm really excited to have you on, primarily just because, you know, a lot of us, we have ADHD, a lot of us have anxiety, and then we try and throw a business in that. And I know navigating that is hard on itself, but then having our brains work against us. just really throws a wrench in everything. So, I know that you were diagnosed with ADHD, you have anxiety as well, so I really want to touch on first, when you got into dog training and kind of how that kind of took off. And then we'll get into all the mental health nitty gritty. Sure, absolutely. so I started Being interested in dog training, out of high school, I started a pet sitting business when I was 15. Oh, wow. and, you know, just me on my bike going around the neighborhood and stuff, and what started was there were some dogs that I would take care of and they would drive me crazy. They bark too much or they jump around or, you know, they're just being dogs, very frustrating. So I was like, what can I do to keep myself sane while I'm working with these dogs? So I just started looking into that kind of stuff. This was also when, um. You know, the dog whisperer was really popular on television and, I'm embarrassed now to say, but I do have to acknowledge that's where I started. I kind of started somewhere like him, but then a lot of it was self study. So I started out that way, like I'm one of BC's in Milan. And then as I kept learning about things, I realized. I don't want to be like him. Educating myself? Yeah. Yeah. That's not the best way to go. and then after I became, I turned 18 and I could work with animals professionally, I started working at dog daycares and, grooming salons and pet stores. and I've also been in a vet, veterinary offices a couple of times. So I kind of did all of that and then I did actual training in my early twenties. Before I moved out here to Oregon, I'm from Maine originally. Oh, okay. because I worked at a pet store and they wanted to start, like, dog training classes. The person in charge of that used to be my boss at a dog daycare. so very small community. so, uh, that I started working under her and then I moved out here, worked under a couple other trainers, and then kind of started off my own part time, while I still worked in pet retail. And then in 2020, I did full time. Wow. Sense. Yep. You just like hit the ground running. I love that you just were like 15. I know I want to be with animals and you just. Streamline that, that's so awesome. I've worked with, yeah, and when I was a child, I wanted to be a zoologist. But, once I got to college, I was like, that's too much school. Same, same, right? So, So yeah, it's been, gosh, I just turned 34, so 19 years that I've worked with dogs in some way. That's so awesome. And that you still, I hope you still love it if you're doing it this long. Oh, I absolutely love it. Um, especially now that I work for myself. Um, I pay my, I pay myself pretty well. And, as you deserve. Yeah. And I work the least amount of hours per week I've ever worked and I've made more than I've ever made. So that's a really good balance for me. Just because, you know, working all the time. was a lot of burnout, and I was always tired and things like that. So being able to kind of shrink myself down and still be able to make money I need to have the lifestyle I want is really nice I'm curious, so when did you decide, like, Okay, I want to work for my own? And Before you answer that, as someone that has anxiety myself, I feel like that is really just like, whoo, that's a big leap in anxiety inducing. It was, it was really scary. my big, one of my biggest, and I've figured this out through therapy and stuff too, one of my biggest triggers is actually worrying about money. Yeah, almost. Makes sense. But now that I'm an adult and I'm in charge of that, it's just been like, I'd never have enough money. Same. Even though I'm fine, I've never been in a situation where, you know, I ran out of food or utilities or I was homeless or anything like that. It's just the worry. Yep, it just is. And I like to plan ahead for that kind of thing. So like I just, I just bought a house, so I was planning for that for years before I've actually, I actually got to do it. I probably could have become full time before I actually did, but because of that worry about I'll never have enough money, I delayed it for a very long time. so I was overworking myself. I had like a full time job than a part time job. that was a lot. I was really, really home. I think the last job I had, I was just kind of hitting a wall. and you know, it wasn't. It wasn't anything to do with, um, the, where I worked or the staff or my boss or anything. I was just like, this, I just don't want to do this anymore. Like the overworking part? Yeah. It's working that long. Too much. and I was like, but I really want to do dogs. Dog training was not for work to me. I could have a bad day at work. I could go train a dog and I'd be good. I was feeling better. so, I was just like, I gotta, might as well do it. I had money saved, so I was like, well, worst case scenario, I can kind of, fall back on that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my husband works, so we have his salary too. And by that time, I had built up a reputation of sorts, at a lot of people that would refer me. So I never really stalled. Oh wow. I just kind of expanded and, and was going. So. Yeah, it worked really well. So, and if, yeah, I was scared, it was, you know, it kept me up at night and stuff, but, um, I was just very lucky that I had all kind of that, that, uh, cushion of, Clientele and referrals and stuff to fall back on and then just go, which I'll have to do all over again now that I'm moving to Salem. Well, and there's always the bonus of, like those that offer virtual training. Like you always kind of have that backup of like, okay, I still have the clients. in that regard, but then it's getting more of the in person, which I know plenty of people I can refer you to, so that won't be a problem. Yeah, um, I still, most of my clients are in person. Um, even during the pandemic, I was one of the few people who, around at least for a while, who still had in person as an offering. Right. Of course, we social distanced and masked and everything. so that really helped, And yeah, I've only had a few people do virtual training so far. I would like to get more into it. and I am looking into how to make that a better option for everybody. But, for now. In person is, is way, I actually prefer in person too. I was just gonna say, I feel like it's the, not that there's anything wrong with virtual training, but like, just, it's the in person, it's the connection, it's doing the application, it's helping critiquing the mechanics, I, it's just, there's something more like, oof. with it. Yeah. So, I totally get that. And I'm very, I'm very hands on teaching, if I can. So, if the dog is okay with me handling them and working with them, then I, I do. I'm like, here, I will show you. and it seems a lot of, a lot of people are able to respond to that and, learn that way. Right? It's, it's that visual learning and, and applying it. I totally get that. I'm the same way. Um, so wow. Moving and having your business and being able to do that. How has the anxiety been with that? It's been okay. I think I'm not as worried as I thought I was going to be. And my therapist was like, Hey, let's prepare you for that because, I have a goal. It's, with my anxiety, even as a toddler, that's when it first kind of came out, if I have set plans and they, and they work and they happen, it's great. It's when those plans get changed that I can get triggered. So as a toddler, that would be like, um, my mom told me in preschool, I would throw tantrums if they change the schedule of the day. That's understandable. So if, you know, they were like, oh, it's snack time now and it was not snack, that, time was not snack time yesterday, I would be like, no. They're changing their routine and the flow. So that was the very first sign that something, and it, you know, sounded like, obviously I don't remember, but it sounded like more than usual toddler being ridiculous. Right. Kind of thing. And it's always been that way. So like, even now, like if I plan a vacation, I need to know what I'm doing every single day, if it's just, we're just going to hang out, go to this destination and chill, I'm like, no. I can't, I can't do that. It freaks me out, and I can't have a good time. you know, obviously, chilly, relaxing and chilling is nice, but if that's the entire plan for the whole vacation, I'm like, no, I can't do that. When are we, when are we leaving? When are we going to eat? When are we going to do this? When are we going to do that? Right. so with the house, and I'm kind of in charge of it. My husband's very passive. He's just like, you do it. So, that's like Josh. Yes. Yep. so I'm like, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna move on these days. We're going to switch all our addresses over. We're going to sell these, these items we're not going to bring. I'm going to go down there this day, this day, this day, this day, and clean this, this, this because the house is pretty dirty. Oh yeah, I mean that's, people coming in to look at it, I, yeah, don't even get me started. Yeah, well I learned yesterday that the linoleum on the kitchen, in the kitchen is a different color than it looks. To clean it. Like, great, wasn't expecting that, but okay, great. Yeah, so, but I've, I've got plans. to do that, um, and the goal is live in this house and make, make it livable and it's ours. Make it your home. Yeah. And that is a big life goal that I've had for a really long time. I've hated being in apartments and I've been in them for eight years. So I'm like, no, I want a house. so I, I'm okay. I'm, I'm okay. And unless something, yeah, that was the thing is I would worry, especially with the, um, buying process. I'd worry that there's going to be a wrench in the, something will fall through, um, you know, the seller's going to. Be difficult, you know, we're gonna find something. We're gonna find something that's like, no We're not gonna buy this now because it's so bad and that never happened And I've always been a pessimist With my own with my own stuff I think if and I think it's also part of anxiety is I think the worst is gonna happen Yeah, but now at this point And this, my age and where I am with therapy and medication, I can acknowledge that, maybe think that, but I'm not always stuck on it like I used to be. Like I used to just be stuck on this bad thing will happen and then just not do anything about it. Yep. Yep. Um, so I'm able to kind of break, I mean, that still happens sometimes, but it's very, it's pretty rare compared to when I was younger. Well, and that, like, let's just tie that right into dog training, because I feel like a lot of the times when we are dealing with, you know, difficult behaviors, air quotes on difficult because it ranges, but in that, right? It's, it's always trying to think of the next step and always trying to be prepared and what if this happens, what if this trigger happens out of the way, but having the, and it takes time to create the toolkit in ourselves of, okay, but this is what I'm going to do when this happens. This is what I do when this happens. There are different ways to break it up to approach and handle certain situations, whether it be management training. And I feel like a lot of the times we forget that myself included. that we can totally reach into those toolboxes that we have that we develop over time to offset that. And it, you know, medication, stress management, having things planned out in a way so that we have less to worry about. I am such an anxious person and It's taken years for me to get out of the, I don't want to say obsessive, but just the festering and not being able to let go of the, my mom used to call it future tripping. I'd always be future tripping. She's like, stop, you don't need to be worrying about that. So like a week out. And I'm like, but I need to plan now and be prepared. But then it takes me out of the moment. Of just being present. And when I made that connection, I was just like, okay, I can worry about that. Then right now I'm just going to do what I'm good at, but of course that's the learned skill and it takes time and. Navigating a business is a whole other beast when you have anxiety. Oh, yeah. Like, you think of everything. Yeah. I have no business background, so I'm just making Most of us don't, yeah. We're winging it. and it's, I mean, it's worked so far, but, yeah, and sometimes It is, and I, I also future trip as we've kind of already established, so, I like that word for it. You can take it. You know, I do have to kind of stop myself from doing that too, because I can still get worried about the business stuff. Sure. It's understandable. Okay, I'm making money, it's nice, I would like some more. Can I make more? I mean, I don't expect to be a millionaire or anything, but I'm like, can I make a little bit more? Live comfortably. Not worry. Yeah. Especially now that I've got a house to take care of. Right. Um, you know, and then I'm like, well. Should, you know, how am I going to expand? Like should I expand? Do I want to expand? Do I want it to be just me? Do I want to hire somebody someday? and I, at this point, wouldn't really work. So, if I worry about that too much, you know, it just messes things up and I get really kind of anxious. and my anxiety can definitely, I'm pretty good at compartmentalizing, but it, it has Come out before or at least I think it is like, I don't think anyone notices during sessions, but I can be like, Oh no, or like, think about that again. Like, Oh no money. And I'm like, why am I thinking about this? I need to be here right now. It's like, how did I even get there? How'd that thought even get in here? Get away. Or like, um, or I'm, I'm very, I'm very harsh on myself and my performance. So if I make a mistake, I. Internally, I'm like screaming. I'm like, no, I'm so stupid. I'm so dumb. Why? They know, they know , they, I'm a fraud. Clients don't know. I mean, not perfect, so I have made mistakes, but if I do, I fix it. and they've never caused any problems like damage, right. Injury or anything. So, it's just little things like, oh, I should have brought the dog away sooner before he barked at the. Right. I should have noticed. But, yeah. Trial and error, yeah. I'm the only one that's noticing this. Maybe if another trainer was watching me, they'd notice too. But, then, then I would, I would welcome that as, as a critique. I'm like, yes, thank you for telling me. Right. You're like, take me out of my head and just tell me that, please. Help me. I'm, I'm open to constructive criticism, absolutely. Especially from people that I value their opinion. It's when our own criticism hits us and we just like pull it apart. Oh, I am so good at doing that. It's such a great skill I have. I wish I could do that more often to myself because I'm my own worst enemy when it comes to that kind of thing. It's well, it's so easy to Get into our heads and just it's so easy to be negative with ourselves of like, you didn't do this right. You didn't time that correctly. You screwed up doing this when it's like, okay, you're human. What happened in the situation that maybe made you not really think in that moment? What prompted this to happen? And You know, it's the same thing that we say to clients when they're like, oh, it's my fault. Like, I'm the reason my dog reacted. I'm the reason they had that. When you come in as a professional and you're like, no, okay, actually it, this is what's going on in the environment. There were these really loud things going on in the background. You felt tense. Like there are so many other factors and we explain that to our clients, but when we're. In the heat of the anxiety and feeling the pressure, we can't tell ourselves that. We can't rationalize that. And that's so human of us to do that. It is. It's, it's funny. It's, it's exactly what I do. Especially because most of my workload is, is reactive and fearful and aggressive dogs. so I have that conversation with clients all the time. Right. And I can't turn around and have that conversation with myself. No. It's definitely something I'm trying to work on. but. At this point, I, I, I really can't, really can't, it's, it's baby steps too and just like noticing little things here and there and it's like, okay, well, I'm going to work on that here and there, but you know, you're human and I, I think for a lot of us that, you know, I feel like a lot of dog trainers, we have Some type of mental health going on and that's why we do what we do because we care so much and we're so empathetic and so understanding. And a lot of us have some form of anxiety, whether it be really high or it being a little more manageable. But we can relate to the situation and training so much that I think that's why we like it so much. Because we're like, we're not going to fix this, but we can fix that. Yeah, you know I and I've noticed that too. I was like wow a lot of us are struggling with these be certain things, or neurodivergent or things like that. Right. I always wondered why, but that's a great, that's a great insight on that observation. I like it. It's taken a lot of therapy for me to figure that one out. And uh, I think having an ADHD diagnosis. in my thirties definitely helped explain a lot of like, Oh, that's why I bounced around from career to career. And that's why I really love dog training. Cause it's the visual, the physical and being present and out and applying things with my hands. And just, it's, it's a different way behind, you know, now I sit behind a desk and so it's really different for me. But, figuring out that balance, I don't even know where I'm going with this, but, same thing. know, I, I really think one of the reasons that I find, I don't find it work. Like, the one, the one aspect of this job I dislike the most is the paperwork part. Oh yeah, sure. I send, I send progress reports every time and everything and emails and I'm just like, you know, and I can sit there and it will take me like 20 minutes to make like a four sentence email because I don't want to do this. but yeah, the other stuff is great. Right. It's the non paperwork things, right? Yeah. and I really think for me because that one of those major triggers I've always had is. the lack of, or a feeling of lack of control. Because I think that's what it boils down to. If like my schedule is different or my plan changes, it's I feel like I'm losing control. and not that that makes me a control freak or anything, where I'm like, good, I'm controlling the dogs. Like, I don't think that at all. because I'm not. It's more of having like a plan. And then the plan changing. Yep. Yeah, I, I know what I'm going to do. I know what to do whenever every scenario pops up. and I can do, and I can also compartmentalize. So like if, you know, oh, that dog had a big reaction. or the other day, I was working with an aggressive dog and we were in a park and, the owner the client, accidentally dropped the leash when the dog was reacting. did, there was no danger though, the other dog was on, behind a fence, so there wasn't, no one's going to get it. Oh, okay. but, so I just, okay, I just went over and got it back. It's that panic. Yeah. I brought it back. But inside I'm like, oh no, you know, oh, it's a good thing there's a fence. What if there wasn't a fence? What if another dog comes over? Because it ran really quickly. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I can just kind of take over and just, nope, we're going to move them, and then we're fine, and we're going to reassess, and we're good. It's so funny how the trainer, the trainer brain can override that. Yeah. You switch into that mode. Yeah, and it's, it's, I'm not scared of them. Like, I have been in some situations where I could have gotten hurt if something went wrong. or even a little bit more wrong, uh, but I don't, I don't panic, like I've had, I've had teeth here in front of my face, um, you know, I've been able to dodge, you know, a bite a couple times, um, and those are all on me, cause then I'll look back on it, I'm like, okay, how could I have set up, uh, this scenario better, so that didn't happen, um, and I've learned from those, those, uh, errors, so. Now, when I work with aggression, I'm very careful and over careful, probably some people think, but I just Hey, you can't be too careful with that. Yeah. Exactly. I'm curious. So, when you've had that kind of situation happen where you're like, Okay, I need to be more careful. I need to set this up better. Have you encountered that How do I want to ask this? Have you encountered that in a way where you have had some type of roadblock in your business, something that is just like, Oh, okay. That is like panic attack. Very stressful. Did not prepare for that. Now I need to figure out a plan. Have you hit something like that in your business where you've kind of had to approach it the way you did for like a training case where you're just like, Oh, I need to like pivot and like figure out how to handle this differently next time. for the business aspect. Yeah. It could be anything. Not quite yet. Okay, good. To be perfectly honest, I think this is because it's just me. Okay. Hey. So that's a little, that's a little easy, you know, this moving and having to reset all my clientele again is It's a big one. Yeah. Hopefully not gonna be a roadblock, but I'm prepared for it to be. Good. For a while. I mean, I moved across country. And I did it, so. You've done it before. You can do it again. I can do it. I think if the only thing I can't would come close to that and it's not really much of a road block yet, is I'm trying to decide what to do with my business. In the aspect of what I'm offering. Oh, okay. So I'm off, I offer a little bit of everything right now, and I like everything, but I just recently have started to actually say, Hey, I specialize in aggression and anxieties and fear. And I think what made me hesitate for that for so long was because there, since there's no regulatory Committee or anything. Right. You can say that and not and no matter what so I was always really nervous Like what if I say that and then someone's like no you're not or something But I believe I am because it's about 90 percent of My workload now. Right. And it's my favorite thing to do and the thing I have been learning a lot more about with continued education and I feel confident that I'm able to do most of those cases and I am all I'm also very open to referring out if I'm like, you know what? I can't I can't do this one And I let people know I have evaluations before we sure. Yeah, so if they as that happens, I'm like I can't do this I don't say it that way It's like You need a little more help Then I can give you. So here are some are some people who can help you much better than I can. Right. I think there's nothing wrong with that, especially when you're niching down is hard and and choosing to. It almost feels, and correct me if I'm wrong, but sometimes it feels like you're letting go of other opportunities when it's like, but you can lean into something that you're really good at. Yeah, I just have to, it's, it's more of my self doubt coming through. Sure, of course. Take the plunge. I probably will eventually. And just, what I'll probably do is just erase, like, I don't, like, take off the puppy stuff and stuff. I love doing that too. It's very refreshing. It's good in between. It gives you a little burst of joy here and there. To have just a silly little puppy bouncing around versus a dog that hates me. Or wants to eat me. Or wants to eat everybody else. Right. But I, I think when you're choosing to specialize in something, I think a lot of the times people are like, well then that means I can't take on, you know, obedience and puppies. You still can, but I think it's more sprinkle throughout here and there. But I think the big, heavy behavior, aggression, reactivity things. A lot of people don't want to touch that because it's big, heavy, and when we lived in San Francisco, we specialized in reactivity, and we were one of the few trainers that took that on because a lot of people didn't want to touch that, and then all the puppy people would want to come to us, and they're like, do you train that? Like, it doesn't really say on your website, and we're like, oh, yeah, we do. We just, you know, we specialize in this, but we totally take that on, and then they'd be like, oh, okay, great. But being able, because then what will happen, I'm sure you know this, but what will happen if you do choose to specialize is that people will know to refer to you, too. And then you become that source that people start referring to. And then it even looks better when you're like, oh, I have a waitlist. I'm so popular and busy because I'm so good at this. Now I have a waitlist. And then people are like, oh, now I need to wait to work with them. Yeah, no, you're, you're 100 percent correct. I just, I just need to take that plunge. I'll probably do it after I've established myself. Oh, yeah, I get settled in my new community and stuff. And I do need to look at the the training field down there, too. There's some great trainers down there. I've already kind of connected with a couple of them, and I look forward to meeting them, in person. But I don't necessarily know if there's any spots that needs to be filled. I've just been told, yeah, we need more force free down here. So I was like, good, I'll do it. They do. Yes, they do. and my circle's gonna, my, My service here is going to be pretty big, so I'm going to kind of go out into the little towns a little bit and do, if they, if they want me, and do that, so. Hey, if you're willing to come to McMinnville, let me know. I can refer so many people to you because we have no trainers here. Oh no, really? Yeah, that's why I briefly debated getting into it. I'm like, I can't be the only one. I'll have to see how that, how that would work out, but I'll definitely look into it. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, it's like a 45 minute drive, I think, and yeah, it's just a lot of the old school César Millan kind of people out here, which is normal. I mean, it's more country. It makes sense. Definitely. I, uh, we were walking, we were driving around and I was like, Oh, I saw someone carry treats and they treated their dog. And my husband's like, pretty sure I saw a prong collar on that lab. And I was like, you know what? I was happy they had a bag of treats. Don't, don't rain on my parade. So when you decided to start your business that is quite a big leap and Then just, I feel like a lot of the times we start businesses and we don't realize that a good chunk of it is being an entrepreneur and doing marketing and sales and getting people to, you know, buy your services. And I'm curious, just how was it going into that with anxiety, with ADHD and Learning, not, not, not only learning how to do it, but then executing it and, and building the clientele up, because I know that's, that's a beast. I did it very slowly. Okay. and I think that helped, because I didn't, I didn't get too crazy. it did help that I had been in the pet community for so long, that people already kind of knew me. so. Before my last, uh, pet retail job, I worked at, um, Fang in Portland, in North Portland. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and I became the dog. person. Like, and this had happened in other pet stores I had worked in too. so, you know, if the, if there's any questions about training or harnesses or behavioral stuff, they're like, let's go get Haley. And I just, and I just want to send, I had people who were like, Oh, do you train? I was like, yes, I do. or I had people come in who, um, You know, they were dog, like, uh, Club Canine, which is a great dog place, dog boarding place. They were across the street, or they still are, so they would come in. That probably worked out perfectly. Yeah. They'd come in and, um, you know, talk to them and stuff. that's also how I met, Shel, who he and I and a few other people started 4 3 Oregon. Oh! I did not know that! Oh my god! I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that. It's been kind of in hibernation for a while. That's a big deal, though. Um, because one of us moved to Indiana, and then I'm moving, and then Shel moved to Canada, and uh, it's Lorenzo who works at Synergy Veterinary Behavior. I'm talking to them right after you. I'm so excited. They're the best. It's I I've learned so much from Lorenzo. Oh my god. Not even funny. And I'm, in a good way, jealous of that. Oh, I love every single account they have. There's just so much, like, just bursting with information. Mm hmm. but yeah. We were all, we all started Forestry Oregon. And, you know, it's been, yeah, it's kind of been in hibernation just cause we've been so busy, but it exists still and we're not gonna stop it or anything, but first and foremost, it's that directory, that's on the website is, and it's very useful and we get, we get hits, so people. People use it. Can you explain what Force Free Oregon is? Because I'm a nerd and I know what it is, but I want you to explain it. So, Force Free Oregon is a directory of, force free, fear free, reward based, pet professionals in the state of Oregon because it was so difficult to find them. Yes. And they exist, but, you know, unless you Google, you search the exact Right thing they would get lost in this avalanche of not so great places, right and having to weed through Yeah, especially when they're like ads and all that stuff. So we it's completely free to use it's free to join It's just, it's separated by like groomers, and pet stores, and trainers, and behaviorists, and boarding, and dog walking, I believe. And so we just have it, have everybody listed, we have links to their websites, or their social media, And so you can just go ahead and and pick who you want to work with and everybody has been vetted by us so either we knew them or We really did took a deep dive into their online presence to make sure because a lot of the not so great especially trainers The not so great ones are very good at hiding that. Yes So, um, you know, like you have to go into the bottom of their about page to find, oh, yep, there's a shot caller on the dog. they're very good at it. Or zero certifications and you're like, oh, they just, they grew up with dogs for 20 years and that's their experience. Right. Which there are some great trainers around without certifications. Sure, yes. Because certification can be, um, you know, prohibitive, like, costs and things. Yes, good point. But, yeah, if there's continuing education of some sort, that's always, that's always good. Seeking, yeah, seeking education and more information is always the most crucial point of that. I will plug a link to all of that so people can find that. Yeah, fantastic. So we do stand by everybody on that list. and, you know, if, It turns out we were wrong and, or they switched over, to something else, then, you know, we'll take them off. So, but yeah, it's just easy. So if you type force free in Oregon, which if you're looking for that, you will type that in. First thing that comes up. I hope so. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. But yeah, it will pop up and you know, I'm on there too and so that's helpful and I've had a few people find me through that website as well, so. That's awesome. I totally forgot that you were connected to that. But, yeah, Force Free Oregon's a big deal. I'm excited to be, you know, on that list and be included in that. And I know that, um, certain businesses in Oregon will have that little badge on their website, too. I know I have it, because I'm so proud to have that. But, yeah, that's another way to spot Force Free trainers in Oregon. And I love that, like, I thought the dog training community in San Francisco was pretty frickin awesome. But the dog training community in Oregon, I'm realizing, is even more awesome. It's really great. It's very connected. We're all really supportive of each other. Yes. We don't compete. Like, I mean, There are enough dogs to go around. Yeah, don't go in this town. That's my town. You know, we don't, nobody does any of that. I have been referred to by other trainers who they either couldn't do, What they need to be done or they didn't have time or something like that And I'm happy to do the same I have had to do that now because I'll have people from up here in the area be like hey I'm like I can't moving here And that's so helpful yeah, and I'm I'm and I'm happy to do that or if you know if Um, I've had, I've had a few times where someone's like, Oh, well, I decided to go with this group class instead. I'm like, Oh, that's great. Cause I like them. They're fantastic. No hard feelings. I'm totally fine with that. and like I said, I've had a couple of people in Salem already reach out like, Hey, let's grab lunch when you, when you're down here and stuff. So yeah, I'm really, I'm really excited to start building up a network down there again and expanding on this one. Right. Oh, well, and let's just, you know, talk about community on that point, because I feel like a lot of the times, and I talked about this so much in the podcast that the dog training community was isolating for so long. And for so long, a lot of us didn't feel like we could reach out to one another, whether it be we feel like we're competition or just feeling like the other doesn't want to interact. And Bye. Bye. Nowadays, I feel like we are seeing more people connect with one another, more people are sharing business ideas and not having that fear of, well, they're going to go and steal that because there's so many other ways we can branch off and help one another that I, and I'm, my question is with this is that I'm curious how you feel about having that sense of community now and how it's helped with your business. I think it's helped. immensely. Not only with, you know, referrals and all that stuff. but just the fact that you, like you said, you can reach out to somebody. you're talking about Lorenzo. I've asked Lorenzo a ton of questions. And they're so nice, like they immediately are like, here, here's all this information. If anyone's not watching YouTube, I'm like pulling things from my head. Yeah, and I've worked with them briefly too. so that's where that relationship started. But even after that, I still could reach out. you know, I've asked them stuff about my own dog. and just. Or can you explain how this works? Like, I, for some reason, my brain cannot comprehend some of the physical therapy exercises. I could, yeah. I could do that. Like, with like, uh, back end awareness. I cannot. I'm like, how do I start that? I cannot do it. Same. Yes. It's so, like, you can show me a thousand videos, or you, I'm like, I don't know. So Application and watching are so different. Yeah, so help me out. Like what is this? and, and other people too, um, you know, I see something on like their Instagram, I'm like, that's so cool, I never thought of it that way, or how did you start that, or where did you buy that equipment? Right. I know. And yeah, no one's ever said, no one's ever ignored me. Don't ask me. No one's ever said, uh, pay me before I tell you, you know, or something like that. Um, so it's, it's really, really great. Yeah. No one is in fear of each other. I know. It's just, it's an awesome time to be a dog trainer. I feel like in, in that regard, as far as like community and being able to help one another, I've noticed for sure. Absolutely, absolutely. the only divide, really, that I still see is, um, is the, you know, the force free versus aversive, which, um, That's always gonna be there. Yeah, and it's true, and I will admit that there are some times where I'm not, you know, I'm, I'm on the fence with how, To really bridge that gap or if I can, if there's a point to, cause it definitely, when I've tried before, it doesn't go very well because it, it really depends. so I kind of do like, it was funny. Cause sometimes I'll leave little tidbits in like a comment section for. Somebody else. And then depending on my mood or depending on how terrible that video is, I'll, I'll be snarky. Oh, I, yeah. It's not helpful. I understand in the long run it's not helpful, but it's kind of for me venting. And it's too, it's usually people who I'm like, they're never going to change. It's usually more, those more of the really rich and famous ones. So like, yeah, they're not going to change because they'll lose all their money. So, I love it. Just tell it like it is. Yes. Yeah. I mean, and I'm not saying everyone go be rude in comment sections. No. It's not good. but I will admit that sometimes I will tip into that. And then I do have to pull myself out because I can. Get too far in and then I turned back into my nasty teenager self. Yes! Oh, that's such a good comparison! Yes! I wasn't a very nice teenager. Oh no, I wasn't either. I will admit it. Um, and that's, you know, a lot. Teenager and then having the anxiety and all that stuff is, did not help. I did. mellow out a bit. He kind of ended puberty, but it was, it was a whirlwind for a while. yeah, that's why I, I was on Tik Tok for three months and then I took myself off because it got so bad and not just with bullying for me, where it's usually I'm like bullies. I was actually like crying and I'm like, why am I crying? It got really, really bad. And then I was being really mean. to some people, not Reactive, but it was I was being very defensive and reactive. I was a reactive dog Basically. So I took myself off. I'm like, this is just stupid. Hey, that's a big mental health. And I will never go, I'll never go back. I'll be the old people on Instagram and Facebook, I guess. I guess we're old now, I'm not sure. Uh, yeah, we're creepin we're creepin to 40. We're a ways away, but we're still creepin there. Um, no, I like that you brought up social media, cause that is a hard topic, especially in our community, because There is that divide and it's so easy to see all these videos and it irks us because we know what is really going on because we understand things and you just see it and it's just like I can't not comment on that. Um, and for those not watching YouTube, I twitched my eye a ton because it's so infuriating. I avoided TikTok for at least like two years. I refuse to get on. People are like, oh, get TikTok. I'm like, no. Why? I don't like, like, I hear people complain about it all the time. Why would I subject myself to that? like, I visually, I just don't want to see that shit. And I did create a TikTok, but only just to have, like, I didn't want anyone stealing my handle. So I was like, okay, I'm just going to create this, just like I did with Twitter. I'm like, I'm just going to create the handle and I'm not going to go on. And then people will tag me and they'll be like, oh, I didn't, you know, I tagged you on TikTok and I didn't see you. And I'm like, I don't, I have it, but I'm not active. Like, you want to talk to me, talk to me on any other platform. Not that. I check it maybe once every three months. For my mental health, because it's too much. I was going down that rabbit hole. I was like on there for like hours. It's so easy. And now Instagram is turning into it too, and it's really frustrating. but I'm trying, like I'm making more videos now, but I have to. Because it is, it is my advertisement. Basically, is, is Instagram. Yeah. Facebook, I kind of am lazy about posting on there. I don't have as much traffic. It's a different demographic on Facebook, too. It depends on what your audience is. It is. You know, it's everyone who remembers before Facebook existed is on Facebook, and then everyone else who's always noted is like, eh, Facebook's old. Right, that's exactly it. Oh, you're aging us right now. Yes, that is exactly it. It's fine. I reference MySpace on here plenty, so. I remember MySpace. MySpace is too complicated. You have to do all the HTML stuff. All the coding. That's how it got us all into it. But I love that you. Don't touch that Instagram and social media as a form of your marketing, because a lot of the times it is for a lot of us, and I mean, hello, that's how I built Woof Culture. I wouldn't be here without it. Yeah, and now if I record during sessions, I'll, you know, I'll say thanks for the commercial. When it comes out. Everything is content now. Yes. And it is. Like, I had a video, kind of, uh, featured by, by Zach George, in the wint last winter. Yeah. And my followers tripled. I'm sure. Because of that. so that was cool. And so I'm like, well, cool. That helped. I didn't, I, it's, I didn't have to ever, uh, you know, I didn't have to pay for that. Right. Or anything. See, that was really nice, um, which is funny because speaking of snarky in comments, I will, some of his comments, I, well, not his comments, but his comment sections. Right. That's what I'll snark the most, and he was, he like, he, either he or who, or his wife, or whoever runs the account, I'm not sure. He was like, hey, we see you in the comments all the time, and they're really great. So I was like, cool, thanks. You're like, thanks for the R Yeah. But yeah, it's, I do my best and I do, I do, I will also sometimes kind of make posts a little bit personal, where I do get kind of worried sometimes if that's the most appropriate thing as a business, but at the same time, social media has made lots of businesses kind of more About the individual and real and yeah, um, so like, yeah, if I'm really frustrated about something I saw online or I had a frustrating Client or something. I mean, I don't name names or anything. Sure. I'll just be like, hey remember trainers are people too or You know, it's not instantaneous like like you actually have to work So And hopefully that doesn't scare anybody off, but No, I, I think that's a great point. before I let you go, I wanted to ask, because I can't remember if you mentioned it before we hit record, but you said that, you know, now you have a lower number of clients, but you are charging accurately so that you are, you know, getting paid well and you are getting paid what you deserve. Cause a lot of the times, we, especially when we're first starting out, we try to just take everything on and, you know, kind of have a maybe lower tier pricing so that people want to But then we realized soon enough once we start getting traction that we're not getting a paid enough and it's like oh shit I need to raise prices. So When did you? actively, like, say, okay, I'm going to raise my prices, I need to make money. And how did, where was your anxiety in that? Because I know that's, that's a huge step. I started the same, where I was really cheap. Well, I wasn't really cheap, I wasn't the cheapest, but what I did In the market, to get a ballpark of everyone. Yeah, I took the ballpark and then kind of went with that, and But yeah, it was the same. I was working too much, and I was getting burnt out. I did see also that, when the prices were lower, I had less commitment from more clients. so I think it's like, you get what you pay for, kind of thing. And then as I And what they're investing, too. Because if there's that money that they put into it, they're more likely to Yeah. Invest in it. And I mean, and that still happens, even with the pri my pricing the way it is now, but I saw as I, I increased it and I was increasing it like every year just by a tiny bit. Good. and as I might have gotten less, but, Like the quality of clients. The quality of client was better, the compliance was better, the, uh, effort and the follow through was better. Um, so, yeah. I'm probably going to, I usually did the, um, beginning of the year, and I might do that again. Um, because we're, um, After I move, so January, I might change them again, uh, and I also know there's a little bit different demographic down in Salem than Right, there's always that. So I'm gonna have to feel that out a little bit, um, cause I, I don't want to be Inaccessible either. Right. There is always that give and take with it, too. Yeah, so I was worried about that But then when that didn't happen like oh, no one's it's like, oh, no one's gonna call me now like that never happened Clients got better So and then I've I've learned from you know, I've done tried to do some business stuff, but I've had like some webinars like about dog training business and stuff and One that thing that really stuck with me that a bunch of them said was like charge what you're worth and then Charge until they stop coming. Like, or like, charge the price. So, if you have your price, and you suddenly don't get anybody, then okay, maybe it's too much. And then you shouldn't adjust it. But until then, just go for it. Until you're at a number where you're happy. Um, and I've also gotten more certification since then. I have four. Um, soon to be five, if I ever finish my family dog mediator one, um, I've been very slow on that. I'm not a very good self at your pace learner. I'm not. I just kind of forget about it. I'm the same way. I need the pressure. I need someone like giving me deadlines and getting things done. Yeah. So I'll have, I'll have five and I think that'll be it. Like, I'm like, okay, I'm good. At least for now. Um, so. All of that education and experience and time, I, I, it's worth getting paid for. Right. So, um, yeah, charge what you're worth, really. That's, that's the biggest thing that I see dog trainers not doing, and it makes me so upset for them, because They deserve to have a living wage. They deserve to have a comfortable life and not be, you know, having a second job on top of running a business. It's not feasible. And, you know, it's what dog trainers do is such a big deal and they deserve to get paid what they're worth. They are providing so much to their clients and I think that a lot of times they just think, um, and something I thought too for a long time is I'm just a dog trainer. Like, I'm just, I'm a dog walker that knows about behavior when it's like, pfft, that is the furthest thing from the truth. Like, you are helping change, you know, not only the dog's life, but the human's life, and their connection with their dog. Of course you deserve to get paid what you're worth. And the right clientele will pay that. And that's the thing, is marketing to your correct audience that wants to invest in that. Yep. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I agree. I agree. And it's worth it. So like, um, and so like veterinary behaviors, for example, are pretty expensive, but I mean, my dog is a patient of Dr. Pachel at Animal Behavior Clinic. It's expensive, but worth it, in my opinion. So I paid it. Right. Same. I'm like, that's going to set us back. But I'm like, it's worth getting that help because I am like drowning. So yeah, no resources. And all the, all the VBs have put in so much time and education and stuff. So, and they do a lot. So same thing with trainers and walkers and. And things like that. Especially if you're just starting in the business, there's so much more to it than just hanging out with dogs, too. Right, and I think one thing I want to add to that is that dog trainers don't pay themselves for their admin time. And so, you know, think of that when you are doing your business, setting things up. Pay yourself for the admin time, so that needs to be put into your fees that you are applying to people, because I think a lot of the times they think, okay, I'm charging for the service, when it's like, okay, but what goes into that service? How much time are you spending writing these, um, you know, I can't think of the words right now, because I'm not training actively. Progress reports. Yes, progress reports. Like, the time it takes to do that, you need to be getting paid for that. That is still work, and I think a lot of the times we forget that, so. Oh, yes! So many helpful little nuggets. Um, do, is there any last bit of advice you have for anyone that is changing their business, just starting? if you can do it without getting overwhelmed, do a lot of your research first. if you have the ability to be flexible and take things slow. Definitely take things slow. Don't get over, that's what helped me a lot, don't get overwhelmed by like oh this person has all these flashy ads and equipment and they're putting out 8, 000 videos a day and you know they just bought a facility and you know all this stuff. Right. I mean that's all built up over time. Don't feel that you need to be exactly like that. I mean, that's good goals to have if you want to have those goals as a business, but it's growth. It takes time. Yeah, and and they didn't start that way. and just do what makes you do what makes you feel comfortable at your own pace and everything and pick it, yeah. Have goals for your money that where make it so you can live, basically, and live the lifestyle that you want. And then there'll be so much less things to worry about, definitely. but yeah, I, I'm not much of a. No, that was so good. That was perfect. Those are such great points and ones that we, you know, a lot of the times we don't think about. So that was awesome. Thank you so much for coming on. Haley has been such a pleasure talking with you. It was great talking to you too. And if you like what we're doing here on the Leashed Mind podcast and you want to help others find us, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel, follow us on social media, give us a rating wherever you got your podcasts, whether that's leaving a review on Apple or giving us a star rating on Spotify, or just leaving a little R plus on our Facebook page. It's all appreciated. Thank you. And we will be back with another episode. Um,