Scaling Success w/Andre Yeu

In Episode 6 of Season 2 your host Mandy Boutelle engages in an enlightening conversation with Andre Yeu from When Hounds Fly. Andre, a seasoned dog trainer, shares the remarkable journey of growing his business to five locations across two cities, managing a team of 10 full-time and 12 part-time employees. His ability to sustain passion, professionalism, and care for his clients, himself, and his team is nothing short of inspiring. 

This episode is packed with valuable insights from a trainer who has not only scaled his business significantly but also maintained a love for his work.

Andre discusses his approach to business growth, emphasizing the importance of gradual and sustainable expansion. His story is a testament to the power of learning through trial and error and the significance of finding a balance between professional success and personal well-being.

The episode also delves into Andre's techniques for delegating tasks and managing a large team while ensuring his own mental health. His advice on setting boundaries, prioritizing core values over skills when hiring, and maintaining a healthy work-life balance is invaluable for any entrepreneur or dog trainer looking to grow their business. Andre's journey offers motivation and practical strategies for thriving in the dog training industry while fostering personal and professional growth.
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Books & Shows mentioned in this episode:
INC.com, Productivity Tip of the Day Podcast
Masters of Scale by Reid Hoffman
Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg
Crucial Conversations by Joseph Grenny
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Want to support Andre?
whenhoundsfly.com
YouTube Channel, When Hounds Fly Dog Training
Follow on IG - @andre_yeu
Follow on TikTok - @andre_yeu

Transcript

0:03

Um, Welcome back to the Leashed Mind podcast I am your host, Mandy Boutelle. On today's episode, I have a conversation with Andre Yeu from When Hounds Fly. wow. This conversation, I'm just, I'm speechless. You guys are just going to find so many valuable nuggets in this conversation. Um, I mean, there's a reason that Andre has. Five locations of his business and, you know, 10 full time employees, 12 part time employees, and he is still able to enjoy what he does and take vacations and just do everything he does with such professionalism and such care for not only his clients, himself, but his employees as well. just, You know, there's, I say there's a reason because it's just so clear with how he shared so much of his wisdom and knowledge and trial and error. It's impressive to speak with a trainer who has grown their business so much over X amount of time and see that they still love what they do and that they still are so passionate about what they do. It's not something you see all the time. But, yeah, just, I've always been a very big fan of Andrei's, and so to finally have this conversation with him and to kind of get inside his brain a little bit more, it's such a good episode. And he was so kind after we, uh, stopped recording. He took a second and was just like, oh, do you You know, let's talk about why you can't delegate, because I don't know if you guys know this, but I have a very hard time passing any of my work off to anybody else. I am the queen of I can do it all. I can take it all on. Let me just get burnt out real quick. And, you know, Andre took the time after we recorded to be like, okay, well, let's just talk through this. And he Explained it to me in a way that, you know, I've talked to so many people about being unable to delegate and task things out when that's all I tell you guys to do. And so he helped me figure that out. And oh, my gosh, Andre, if you're listening to this, you're. Amazing. And I appreciate you and admire you so much, but enough of that, I'm going to get into the episode with you guys. And I'm really curious what you are going to pull from this episode and how you are going to find a way to start tasking things out and start planning how you want to grow your business. You can do it. It's just taking the time to learn as you go and grow slow because there is nothing wrong with slow growth. So let's get into the episode. All right, Andre, thank you so much for coming on the Leashed Mind podcast. I have so many questions for you, but first, just thank you so much for coming on. Mandy, it's my pleasure. Thanks for inviting me. Yeah. So one of the main reasons I really wanted to have you on the podcast, I admire you so much and everything you do because I, you have what, five locations of your business? Yeah, I mean, across two cities, one in Toronto and one in Vancouver. That's impressive, especially, you know, being a dog trainer, I don't think a lot of us even think or dream to scale that big or even realizing that that's something we can do. So that's something I really want to talk about with you today and just how you're able to do that, how you're able to prioritize your mental health and take care of all your employees in that process. so, before, like, We even really dig into things. When you got started, did you always kind of have the idea of like, I want to go big? Absolutely not. Really? Oh. Yeah, not at all. So I, I tell all my team members that I tell people that are thinking about working here or joining our team. And to this day, I still say it. When Hounds Fly as a, the whole idea of a dog training business was and still is an experiment. Really? Oh, I love that. That's awesome. It's an experiment. Like, I, when I first started it, I was in the middle of KPA, and I knew that I was going to start some kind of training business, but I wasn't really sure of the structure of it. I had no, I had no definite plans or vision, no business plan. And what happened was, midway through Karen Pryor Academy, I just randomly said, you know what, like, this is kind of cool, like, my, my instructor Steve Benjamin, he had a basement in, uh, Endicott, New York, and I was like, basements, right, at least it's probably pretty reasonable, this is kind of a cool space, I'm just gonna go check to see, like, What the real estate, commercial real estate in my neighborhood looks like. What would that even look like? Yeah. Yeah, and I just went to the listings and I found a space and I, and I looked at it and I saw the price and I just sort of went to my, my dad and my partner and I was like, I could try this thing. And if it doesn't work after a year, I'll just get rid of it and I'll just go get a job. And that's basically the origin of my business. So it really has been an experiment. I did not have grandiose plans from day one. They were literally like every single, every single, um, step in my, in my journey. And the growth of our business has really been all about, like just taking one base at a time. No, no home runs. I love that. Well, and, and that's the way to grow because you need to be comfortable with being uncomfortable and learning as you go. And with how much you have. Put so much just effort into your business and I see how much effort you support your employees and how much you take care of them and getting an education and expanding. Just I can't imagine how daunting that must have felt in the process of growing because. you know, growth is never a comfortable thing. Um, so how was that journey for you? And just, you know, when did you first start taking on employees and thinking like, okay, this can, this can turn into something? Yeah, it actually took me four years before I offered my first full time salaried Like steady paycheck position to my first hire prior to that point, it had all been contractors in part time where, where I know nobody was counting on me to make rent or their mortgage or, you know, keep their, like, keep the lights on. Sure. So it was 2014, four years into it where I said, you know what, I think we're big enough at the point where like, yeah, I could probably support someone and I could pay them this amount, which would be the living wage and that I would feel good about it. And I was like, all right, let's do it. And that was like. And that, that was like a major sort of like step in the staircase of growth because this was the first time that I was responsible for someone's like rent and like their livelihood. And that if the business failed, they'd be laid off and they'd be out of work and then they would be like, so yeah, so it wasn't until four years. So, I didn't have very, in the initial days, very rapid. growth plans. And I think that if I were to do it now and I were to start a business now knowing what I know now I could have done it more aggressively, but I really did sort of like very incrementally. Get into entrepreneurship. I wasn't I didn't have a big plan to start with and and it took me a while I mean four years that's still that's a baby business in itself because I feel like even in the first year you learn so much and Then by year two, you're like, okay. I have enough clients. I feel confident and then to grow that big Even four years and just to be like, okay, I'm ready. That's a big leap. So it's, it's huge to see how much you've expanded now. It's crazy. Um, when did you get your first location? So the first location was this tiny little basement that we actually still have now. It's our first location. So it was the one that I went It was one of the first listings I found in the middle of Karen Pryor Academy when I just said, I could look for a basement. And the listing popped up. And it's literally a 10 minute walk from my house that I see. Oh, that's so ideal. It's the first neighborhood and it's still there. So we had that since the very beginning 2010 because I knew that I did want to do group classes. I wanted to be focused around a physical location. That was the model that I was interested in, in building. Okay. I love that. And So, what interested you with doing the group classes? Because not all of us, you know, gravitate towards that right off the bat. Yeah, I think that group classes for me are attractive because they really bring the price per lesson down for people. Yeah, it's more accessible. I look at some of the price tags for like private lesson packages or like board and trains and it's like no single client of our company, no single client in the history of our business has ever paid that kind of money for everything. Like, I, like, I think the first year when we launched puppy classes, there were 160 for four classes or five classes. Like everything was under like 200 and people could take one or two programs. I mean, it's more expensive now, inflation, 15 years. But the whole point was like this made dog training and good dog training. Accessible to people of all kinds of income. And that's really important to me. And yes, we are interested in looking at things like day training, or like more intensive private lesson packages, obviously, as we diversify our service offerings. But I'll never get rid of group classes, because I want to make sure that people that, you know, that are in the lower end of the socioeconomic, uh, tiers in our community, you know, if they, if they sacrifice could still come to our puppy start right classes and still come to our foundation skills class to get access. That's really the main reason. That's so awesome. I love that you prioritize that with your business. And, um, so let's switch gears here really quick and talk about social media because that is a beast in its own. And I. I really admire the way that you navigate Instagram and TikTok because it can be very hairy and you could trip up on a lot of things. but I have always, and I say this to my husband, who you know as well, it's, I always admire how you just approach every topic you want to talk about with just, it's just you, you know what you're talking about and you say it in a way where you're just. So not worried about what anyone else has to say. And I think, I know, that a good business owner does that. Because it's, you can't, I don't know, it's just a lot of the times you see people just kind of like word vomiting on social media. And then they're like, oh wait, no, wait, I didn't mean to say that. But you, the way you project yourself and put yourself out there, it's just, it's real, it's honest, and you're just like, no, these are the facts. Like, there was a reel you made, and it was about someone, you know, talking about some book they read, and you're like, I know you didn't read that, and I'm like, God, his personality and attitude is just like, But you are doing it in a way where you're just like, nope, here's the facts, this is the information. So, I'm just curious, have you always just kind of felt that way of approaching social media, or did you kind of have to swat away some biases and Get rid of the judgment lingering. I think that how I present myself on social media is how I present myself in the real world. So, so I really just have to be authentic. And for me, one of the most important things is honesty and truth. Like, I really, really care about honesty and truth. It's one of my non negotiables. I don't work with, partner, interact with people that, that don't believe in the truth. And that could be as, as direct as lying. Like people that Say X when they know the truth is Y. Like, uh, did you take that thing? No, I didn't, but they did. Like, that's, that's the most baseline, like, that's table stakes in terms of honesty. But honesty can also, like, dishonesty can also be, like, willfully misrepresenting facts. Yes. Right. To present it in a way that strengthens one's personal opinion or position. That kind of dishonesty really drives me crazy. Because Yes. Thank you. People who have an interest in just winning arguments are not interested in truth. So, if I'm going to present something publicly, regardless of what it is, if it's an opinion, I'll say it's an opinion. Therefore, an opinion, you know, isn't facts, it's just how I feel. And if that's how I feel, that's all it is. But if I'm going to present facts, I'm going to be pretty damn sure that it's the truth. And if you were to ask 99, or 100 people, 97 percent would Agree that what I've stated is the truth. Right. So if I pursue all my messaging or the things I say in public with the, with the sense that yes, what I'm saying is true, it's based on what I know, I've done some due diligence, I believe it's true, I'm not presenting in a way where I'm trying to twist it so I win an argument, then I have absolutely no fears about things that come out of my mouth. Because if someone gets, if someone in society gets in trouble for speaking the truth. And that's really the problem of society, not the person, and that's my honest opinion. And that's why I'm not too worried about getting cancelled, because I just try to be really careful. I'm gonna say something that's fact based, I'm gonna do my homework, and you know, if it turns out that I was wrong and the facts are something else, then for sure I would, not backpedal, but I would, uh, correct myself and say that. I thought this was true, but it wasn't, and uh, I acknowledge that, but A dog walker once told me this, and I don't know where he got it from, but he said that if you always tell the truth, you never have to worry about remembering what you lied about. Hey, that's true, yeah. So because I always ask myself if I'm going to say something on camera, is it true? Right. Is it really true? Yes. It is. Then I really don't have to worry about anything. Ah. I just, I love how real you are. That is such a genuine response and I just, oh, you're so awesome. I admire you so much. making me blush. Well, you deserve the R You're so awesome and I don't think you heard enough. so on top of doing all this, on top of, you're also a instructor for the flagship Karen Pryor. Professional trainer program, correct? Yeah, that's right. Oh my god. So, doing all these things, I really want to hone in and learn how you prioritize yourself and your mental health. Um, I do know, because those of us that follow you on social media will see that you are very active in, you're very active in general, but in Muay Thai, and I do see you do your cold plunges, and so I do want to ask about that as well. That was an experiment, I've done it like three times, and I made, I made that cold plunge for people at our gym because they wanted one, but I, and I've experimented with it, but I don't do it regularly, but I do, but one, of course, taking care of myself physically is very important, and that's the basic tenets that we would coach our clients with dogs. Sure. How's your dog sleeping? Is your dog sleeping 16 hours a day? Well, for us, it should be seven or eight. Right. And how many people can honestly say they consistently get seven or eight? I'm not in that party. Yeah, no. Even me, like, often I'll get 7 or 8, but not consistently. And then we think about dogs and diet. Like, we would scrutinize a dog's diet. Like, we would look at the bag and the ingredients and make sure it's balanced. But, you know, we owe it to ourselves to do the same about how we eat. That's super essential to being healthy. And then exercise is the same thing. Like, you would look at a dog and you would say, well, you know, how's the physical conditioning of that dog? Like, we do keen eye fitness, we think about how much exercise they're getting, aqua therapy. Well, you know, if we care about ourselves the way we care about our dogs, that would be important too. So, yeah, no question. Taking care of myself physically is one of the pillars of making sure that I That I show up every day, and that I keep on going. Oh, that's so important. I love that you did that comparison because, oh my god, there are so many times where I will read the labels on my dog and my cat's food and I'm like, oh, they're not eating that. I'm not giving that to them. But I will totally go grab a bag of chips or hit up McDonald's when I feel lazy and then I wonder why I feel like crap the next day. So yes, totally love that explanation. so let's see here with boundaries within your business, um, having how many employees do you have now? So right now it's, it's about 10 full time and then about 12 part time and contractors. If we Grouped everyone together. That's amazing. Oh my God. Just that's incredible. but so boundaries with your staff and with clients, what does that look like? And how do you kind of just start that from the get go so that nothing gets crossed in the crosshairs there? Yeah. And that's something that I built into the way I wanted to operate from day one. So the strangest thing, weirds people out sometimes, or they say, that makes a lot of sense, it really depends, is that OneHoundsFly does not have a working phone number. Oh my god, that's amazing. You cannot phone us. It's actually really good. Yeah, so, you're, you're, yeah, because you know the downsides of always being accessible, you know that that's amazing, but other people think, how do you operate? So we have a phone number and it goes to voicemail that basically says we don't check the voicemail. That's the first thing that we did from day one so that we could control how and when people interacted with us so that we could have professional boundaries. And in terms of, and you know, we've grown so now, yeah, our clients can talk to us, but they can request a 50 minute phone call and they can book a phone time slot and then we'll call them at the time they've agreed to. And then, you know, then we can help them out. so not being always on is really important. And in the early days was. I'm not going to use, I'm not going to operate my business from my cell phone or back pocket. Never did. Did you, like, think that from the get go? From the get go. Oh, yes. Okay. Because it becomes untenable. You know that between text messaging and being called at random times, like always on is, it's not going to fly. It really doesn't. So we've never done that. when my, when our instructors and myself, I still see clients on a limited basis. We don't give them our cell phones, so they can't call us or text us random questions. And yeah, like, we want to be able to support our clients, but we can't support them if we're always worried about getting interrupted. And staying present and focused on things you're working on is really important for mental health, and I've all my notifications are turned off on my phone. Like, I don't have a single I mean, you you also are the same way too, right? What's the point? I can't. It's a distraction and it's anxiety inducing. Totally. So you're very disciplined about how your phone is configured, as is mine. So we don't want to get pings and dings all the time. That's boundaries between clients. Inter company wide, we have clear usage policies regarding how we DM one another or how we make people's phones light up. So we do use Slack as our internal communication platform. Okay. And the rules are you don't Slack people on their day off. People have different days off because we're a service based business, and our profiles have our days off listed there so you can check. And we have general guidelines regarding don't ping outside of these core hours. With the exception of the following, like, emergencies, like. Right. Like, just, I mean, an emergency. Yeah, like, like an emergency such as, like, I have to teach Saturday morning at four hours and I woke up and this has occurred and I can't teach my shift. Right. That would be an example of something that justifies making phones go beep. but otherwise, uh, we have, uh, we're pretty good at being quiet in terms of. Notifications and messages outside of core hours. So that's a boundary in our company that that's part of our core values. And, other boundaries, like, like I really try, it's really hard, but I really, really try as an entrepreneur, no matter what, to just say no and make sure that I have at least one full day a week where I don't do anything related to, to business, it is very hard because it's just, Oh, I could just squeeze that one little one hour thing there on my day off and it won't be a big deal. But that's a false, that's like a, that's, you're just lying to yourself. Cause it ends up becoming two things and then you just, you worked for seven days in a row. I love that you touched on that because the amount of times Josh and I will have our time off and then we'll just be like, oh, hey, I had this idea. And I'm like, no, no, no, it's not. Work time. I can't go into work mode because then it's just you get into that cycle and you're always talking about work You never get a turn off. I really love that you like respect Employees off hours and that you all kind of have that that's so awesome And I feel like a lot of the times when we have employees we don't really I love that that's a way that you instill boundaries. I'm curious, do you ever have employees, or not employees, um, clients that are just like, no, I, I need a number, I need to be able to be in contact with you fast. I mean, maybe, but that is set up pretty early in terms of how we onboard clients, that if that was a deal breaker for them, then we're not. The provider from them. Perfect answer. I love that. Um, well, and it just sounds like having your business set up in this way, it's going to ensure that boundaries don't get crossed. There's always clear communication. Someone is there to handle some emergency in some aspect, but you just, it sounds like anytime something's going to drop, you have a way to pick it up and that's so awesome. Um, did it take time to develop that and figure that out to work for you? For sure. It's all, it's all trial and error learning in terms of like what works and uncovering problems and then having conversations about systems or things to try. We've gone back and forth between different variations until ultimately find what works. So that's the, that's like the business philosophy of like continuous improvement or Kaizen, like move the garbage bin one inch closer to the, the factory floor. And that saves over the course of the year, like 5, 000 hours of labor. That's really the attitude that I've taken to, that we take as a, as a team to just always, always make it better. what was that you mentioned Kaizen? Yeah, Kaizen is a, Kaizen is a business philosophy from, from Japan. Okay. And it just literally, I mean, not, maybe not literally, but it indirectly translates as continuous improvement. Oh, I love that. So like always encourage like looking at a process or a thing and ask yourself, like, how could it be better? Even incrementally by one percent. So shit happens. And at the time like you deal with it but then afterwards you ask the question like what caused that to blow up and What systems or processes could be put in place to reduce the likelihood of that happening again that that's really important to It's a long term, like, longevity in the business. Right, and be able to sustain and keep doing what you're doing and enjoy what you're doing. Speaking of enjoying what you're doing, you would not be able to do that if you did not have the opportunities to be able to delegate and task out. When you finally decided to hire employees and do that, What did that feel like for you as an entrepreneur and a business owner to be able to like say, okay I can give this to you and you're going to take care of it and I don't have to worry Once you get it, right, it's very liberating for your mind. Like it just feels so good It really does but it's really hard. It's really hard to do Well, was it hard to let go of some things because it's the it's the hardest thing It is the hardest thing because intellectually, you know that you need to But you shouldn't be doing this thing. And sometimes the things are very trivial, like changing light bulbs. I know that sounds really silly, but for a long time, I had an aversion to hiring tradespeople to like fix small things because to get someone to come change a light bulb would probably cost like 200 bucks. Right. But I could just go climb up on that ladder myself and do it in 10 minutes as an example. And yes, in the early days when you're starting your business, yes, you don't have 200 to hire someone to change a light bulb, but that's the philosophical sort of leap that you have to take. But it's really hard to, to let go because you either think, Oh, this is costing me so much money. And now you have anxieties about loss, right? Like I'm losing money because of this at all. No, I won't have enough money. And there's a lot of anxiety about loss. Right. And not having it. and then you let, hire people and you let go of things and the next thing you have to let go of is the fact that process is less important than outcome. Oh, yes. So if they do it differently than you, but it gets the job done at an 80 percent as, at 80 percent quality or even 80 percent efficiency is what you would have done it perfectly, but yours wasn't perfect, you just thought it was. Then, then you're good, but a lot of people have a hard time letting go of or accepting that. Your way to do this task may not be the best way for another person. And if the outcome is the same anyways, why are you worried about it? So you gotta get over that ego hump. And that can get very infuriating. Like, like getting angry is naturally part of something, of the process of bringing on team members. Because anger comes from the disappointment one feels from what you expected something to look like and what it ended up looking like. And it's going to happen when you hire people. It's going to happen, right? Because they, people have different experiences, different backgrounds, different ways of thinking about things and learning to just handle that and like, let it go is like the next major, major hurdle. So first is financial loss. Second is control freak, like let go of being a control freak and dealing with like the fact that people do things differently. That's okay. And then I think like the, the last bit, that's really, really, really hard. Is, learning to actually shut off, and this is the phase that I'm at. I went away for an entire month last year, and it was part of an experiment where I told my general manager, this was, uh, I told my general manager in winter of 20, January of 22, in July, I'd be gone for a month, and I would not access email, phone, you couldn't reach me. And the test was to make sure that this business could run by itself with me basically gone. Whew! Where was your anxiety with that, though? Well, at, you know, initially it was pretty stressful, but by the end of that 30 days, things were great. That's amazing. That's part of an entrepreneur having to learn how to relax again. I feel like you're speaking to me personally, because I am in that boat, too, and I can't do that. That's so hard. Yeah, could you automate and delegate everything so that you could go away for 30 days and then the first week or two you're going to be like twitching. Right, you're gonna be like, I need to check my laptop. Why can't I check these things? Yeah, or like, I need to work on something. I need to drive something forward. And I need to like, but your job at this point is to learn how to do nothing if you really want to be a successful entrepreneur, because That's what's going to get you like to the next major level. How was it coming back after that and just seeing like, okay, wow. Like nothing fell apart. There were no fires. Yeah, it was a very uneventful July and August, like nothing that exciting happened in the business. All the numbers were the way they were. Everything was relatively fine. That has to feel good knowing that you have that now. Like you tested it, now you know. Exactly. Like that, that's, it was so good feeling. It felt great. And, but, to get to that level, it's a lot of heartache. Right? Starting off with like, seeing the bank account drain as you hire more people to do things that you could do yourself. Oh yes. And then being, and then getting over yourself in terms of like, the disappointment you feel when things aren't done quite the way you would have done. Get over yourself. And then once you've actually got good people or, or vendors that do all these things for you, and then you literally have A well oiled machine that runs by itself. Just leave it alone. Like, don't touch it. A lot of entrepreneurs that I talk to often say that we create our own dumpster fires. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, and it stems from a lot of worry and us trying to insert ourselves and be like, no, no, no, I got it, I got it, I got it. Like, you don't need to do it. I got it. And then it's just like, okay, then why are we hiring people if we're not letting them do their job? Exactly. Ugh. Ah, my gosh, that was, you're blowing my mind and this is so beneficial to me as well because This is everything I need here, too. Okay, good. So, for anyone that is, doesn't matter where they are in their business journey, but maybe they're just like, okay, maybe I might be able to hire a VA. Or maybe I do take on a part time trainer. What advice do you have for anyone that's in that boat right now? Oh yeah, let me share with you all the mistakes I made so that you can avoid many of them. And the first, I've had excellent people that have been with us and have moved on. Uh, and I've also made mistakes in terms of bringing on people. And I think that the first piece of advice I have to give for you is, or to your listeners as well, is don't worry about the skills. So much as how people view the world and what their core values are. Ooh, that's the most important thing because, um, we're allowed to swear on this podcast. You said like, um, I think it was, I think it was, um, a podcast I listened to where Uber, uh, they were talking about Uber's rise from like scrappy startup to like well organized, like real business. And in the early days, uh, they hired all sorts of talented, wickedly smart people. But they had no consideration about, like, people's values. And there were actually a lot of, there was actually a lot of, like, toxicity in their organization. So at some point in time, a professional CEO was brought in, and I'm, if I'm remembering the story correctly, and the phrase that he said was, no brilliant assholes. Oh my god, yeah. Wow. That's common sense, but really. Which basically means, like, I don't care how technically competent you are. If you're not the type of person I would want to hang out with and we see eye to eye about how the world works and what is fair and what is decent, it'll never work out anyways. Yep. So, yeah, so like if I were to receive like a resume that came in and said, I'm not picking any certifications, just using those examples, like CDBC, CBTK, KPA, like all the things, 10 years experience, checked all the boxes, like holy smokes, this resume is like fire, like this person is brilliant. But I interviewed them and I talked to them about how they relate to people. What they think is fair, what they think is right and wrong in the world. And if those are, if our Venn diagrams were like this and not touching, that I'd pass on that candidate. I wouldn't bring in that brilliant person. So, I feel that if you're gonna bring in your first person, yes, they have a certain level of skills that are required, but make that secondary to interview questions and getting to know them, where you can see that, yeah, this person really sees eye to eye about things like We should treat people fairly, that equity is important, equity and inclusion and diversity is important, and that, they talk about clients in a way that you'd want to talk about clients, meaning like these are people that are doing their best, as opposed to like, not talking down on them, yeah, not talking down on them, even things like attitudes regarding how they treat people that don't train like us, like that's, That's, that tells a lot about a person's character, because, you know, so that's, that's my number one, that's my first recommendation. Look for core value fit versus skills first. And then the second that I think is really important, and this is, this might be harsh sounding, but it is true. The, um, Slow to hire, but very quick to fire. Ooh, I like that. Do you want to, and I just stole this from someone else. So take your time to figure out whether someone has the right core value fit and you see eye to eye on things and their skills are appropriate. For what you need. There is a baseline level of skills, of course, right? Have you touched a dog? Yes. Okay But you're gonna do your best and you're gonna make an offer and usually when the thirst first 30 to 60 days You will know Instinctually whether you made a good choice or not, right? Otherwise red flags will pop up that make you go Did they just do that? Right. Or did they just say that? Or really, did that just happen? Trust your gut when that happens. Because it never gets better after the, after the honeymoon period. It only gets worse. Right. And then it gets harder to try and let them go, and Totally. Because they become more dependent on you, uh, labor laws in your state or province might make it harder to terminate someone after X days, 90 days on where we're from. So you're better off to cut your losses early. If you see major, if you see things pop up early, that make you question. Yeah. And I'll share some examples of like things that are non negotiable for me. Like being punctual is super important for me. Yeah, heck yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's table stakes, right? But a lot of people show up to meetings three, four minutes late, like, all the time. That's a red flag. I'll share some other examples of people that have told me stories. this is in a corporate setting, but, uh, in a, in a meeting with a client, a new hire started checking their phone. Like, yeah, I My eyes are bugging out of my head right now, you guys. Like, what's that Seems really basic, but these are real life stories, and like All right, that alone there was enough for that person who told me that story to be like, this person's not making it past the week. Fair point though. I mean. Because it's only going to get worse after the honeymoon period. So that, those are examples of like, uh, be quick to fire. Okay. If you see things early on in your relationship where it's like, whoa, whoa, that's. That's a red flag. Like, trust your gut. Because it doesn't get better over time. Well, and that's a representation of your business. If you're hiring someone, too, and they're like, well, my trainer was tuned into their phone a good chunk of the time. It's like, oh, okay, great. That's awesome. We don't want to hear that. Yeah. Yeah. Because if they're doing it in front of you, for example, then when you're not there. So those are those are my main pieces of advice is like, yeah, like, don't go by skill. Go by core value fit. I used to use the word culture, but then That's a little bit antiquated because that implies that you hire people that are from the same, like, part of the world as you, but core values transcend, like, boundaries, right? Right. Like, honesty is not exclusively a Canadian thing. Like, all people think honesty is important, right? Regardless of where they are in the world. Yeah, um, the entire time you said that, like, ethics just kept popping up in my head. Like, that's just another core value that's super important, you know? Yeah. Ugh. Yes. so with all this, before I let you go, because this conversation has been so beneficial, um, do you have any books, podcasts, anything that you listen to that has really helped, you know, expand your view on this and prepare you better as an entrepreneur that you think our listeners could benefit from? Yeah. For, uh, for people that are interested in growing teams and, uh, becoming entrepreneurial, um, a daily podcast that I listened to on my. On my, uh, Google, um, home device is the INC Productivity Tip of the Day, INC, Ink Productivity Tip of the Day. Ooh, okay. And Ink is actually, well, it used to be a, it probably still is, it originated as a magazine, INC Magazine. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, INC. com. Yeah, so that's a, like, INC. com and their daily, like, five minute brief, like, news briefing that I get on my Google Home every morning on my routine is, like, It's just a good way to get five minutes of like business wisdom every day. And a lot of it is tailored towards like entrepreneurs and preventing burnout and stuff like that. So that's huge. for inspiration, I love listening to the Harvard Business Review podcasts. Interesting. Okay. I can see why though. Because they tell stories of like really inspiring people that are usually tasked with like turning around organizations that are toxic or that have inviting. And these are lessons that, yeah, these are like Fortune 500 companies, but those lessons, they're just around people. Right. So you can take those lessons and bring them down to your team of three and they still hold true. And then the last sort of resource that I'd recommend is, There's another new podcast that I started listening to called Masters of Scale. Of Scale? Scale, yeah. Masters of Scale. Okay. And it, It was created by the people that launched the magazine Fast Company, which was another com, 1. 0, like, print magazine that was all about, like, tech companies back in their early 00s. And it, it's also another really good, that's where I got the story about Uber, for example. They tell, like, really well edited stories of companies that have turned around, or like, Or falling apart and what the lessons are. And, and again, most lessons, because companies are basically collections of people. Most of the lessons are just about people. Well, I, I really love that you are able to, because I feel like a lot of times we listen to podcasts, books, whatever, and We see it only in the perspective they're telling it and instead of finding a way to apply it to our business. And so I love that you are able to do that. And so I hope that people do listen to that and are able to do that as well, because we need all the help we can get, especially as entrepreneurs, it's, it's rough out there. And I don't think a lot of these are geared towards dog trainers. But at the end of the day, you are a business, you are an entrepreneur, you oversee employees, so rules still apply. any last bit of advice you want to share before I let you go? Um, yeah, I think that the last piece of advice that I, that, that I want to share, and I sort of already alluded to this, is I started my business as a, a fairly competent dog trainer, cause I, I started my business as I was finishing Karen Prior Academy. Back in 20, 2009, 2010. So those skills are fairly good. And I had a background working in the corporate world. So my ability to like do processes and basic sales and marketing, those are also quite good as well. But the hardest thing, the hardest thing that I've had to learn is how to grow teams and get people to work together. And get better at managing people. And if there's one thing that, if someone, if a mentor had told me this in 2010 and I invested in that right at the beginning, our business would probably be five times bigger than it is today. And it is really about learning the, the skills of having really good conversations. Conversations around topics that are very challenging and difficult. Because you'll need that with your clients. But if you're gonna go beyond just yourself, or you can just talk to yourself. You're going to have to get really good.. Um, you're going to need to get really good at having difficult conversations with your vendors, your contractors, and your employees. So there's two more resources that I encourage people to look into. If you want to go more woo woo and sort of like soft feeling, Marshall Rosenberg's Nonviolent Communication is a great book and resource. I've always been curious about that book. It's a little too, it's a little too like personal relationship. Oriented to me because the way the syntax works might be regarded as a little bit, I'm not sure what the right word is, but unprofessional. It's more about, but I would talk to like a friend or a family member that way. And then you can find a way to spin it with clients too. Yeah, but the less woo woo way built for the boardroom way that I really love. is Crucial Conversations. Okay. Which Is that a book? It was a book that came out in the early 00s. And in fact, I had a copy of it when I was still in the corporate world, but I never read it. And if I did, if I did. But anyways, found it later. The book is excellent. There's a lot of, like, online resources and train and they even have, like, webinars you can attend to learn more about it. Mastering the art of having Difficult conversations without either apologizing for it, which is, which is classically what women who are socialized in the Western world do. I'm sorry I have to do this, but that diminishes the message. Or the way that males are socialized in the Western world is to become obnoxiously aggressive about stuff. Mm hmm. Right? Yeah. When, when they're starting to feel like there's conflict, neither are good to either shrink away, minimize, or avoid, or become obnoxiously aggressive. The right way to have conversations with people is really about that middle path. And these are skills that are not taught in school. At the time they were not taught to me in the corporate world, there were no training classes in the early and mid 00s about this stuff. I had to stumble upon it myself just in the last five, six years. Right. You have to go out and find that information. Yeah, and now that I have found it, like, jeez, I wish I knew this stuff 15 years ago, so. Always. That's the extra resource. Learn how to communicate and learn how to have conversations that are difficult when there's conflict. If you can handle that really well, because businesses are just collections of people, that will enable growth more than any specific strategy or secret or pricing or patent. It's just collections of people. So get really good at that. I'm going to have to bring you on for another episode just to talk about difficult conversations because that is one we have not talked about yet. I'd be happy to share my stories of all the mistakes I've made. Thank you so much for coming Andre it's been such a pleasure talking with you, and I know our listeners are going to benefit so much from this episode. Great, Mandy. Well, uh, thanks for inviting me, and yeah, I look forward to being a guest again whenever you want, just to reach out to me. And if you like what we're doing here on the Leashed Mind podcast and you want to help others find us, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel, follow us on social media, give us a rating wherever you got your podcasts, whether that's leaving a review on Apple or giving us a star rating on Spotify, or just leaving a little R plus on our Facebook page. It's all appreciated. Thank you. And we will be back with another episode. Um,