Empathy and Understanding w/Lorenzo Fox

In Episode 7 of Season2, your host Mandy Boutelle engages in a profound conversation with Lorenzo Fox, lead trainer at Synergy Veterinary Behavior in Portland, Oregon. Lorenzo shares his unique journey in the world of positive dog training, delving into his work with animals, particularly dogs with complex behavior issues. His discussion highlights the significance of understanding the underlying causes of animal behaviors, such as undiagnosed physical pain or illness, and underscores the crucial role of building trust and relationships in training. Additionally, Lorenzo opens up about his personal life, discussing his struggles with ADHD and the transformative impact of medication on his life and career.

Lorenzo's journey, from his upbringing on a petting zoo in Kentucky to various roles including wilderness guiding, working in domestic violence shelters, and with at-risk youth, has profoundly shaped his approach to animal training and care. He advocates for a holistic and empathetic approach toward both animals and personal growth.

In this episode, Lorenzo’s background illuminates how his experiences have led him to a career in dog training, demonstrating the interconnection of his past roles and his current passion. Listen to this episode for a refreshing perspective on animal training through the lens of someone with a rich and diverse background, and discover how Lorenzo's unique approach to dog training is informed by his varied experiences and dedication to both animals and personal development.
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Transcript

0:03

Um, Welcome back to the Leashed Mind podcast. I am your host, Mandy Boutelle. On today's episode, I have a conversation with Lorenzo Fox. Lorenzo is the lead trainer at Synergy Veterinary Behavior in Portland, Oregon. In this conversation, Lorenzo discusses his unique journey in the world of positive dog training, highlighting his work with various animals. including dogs with complex behavior issues. He delves into the importance of understanding the underlying causes of animal behaviors, such as undiagnosed physical pain or illness, and emphasizes the crucial role of building trust and relationships in training. Lorenzo also shares insights from his personal life, including his struggles with ADHD and the transformative impact of medication in his life. He stresses the importance of Self awareness and continuous learning for dog trainers and the need to prioritize personal well being and mental health. Lorenzo's journey from growing up on a petting zoo in Kentucky to various roles, including wilderness guiding and working in domestic violence shelters and working with at risk youth. Has shaped his approach to animal training and care. He advocates for a holistic and empathetic approach towards both animals and personal growth. Oh, man, it is so fun to listen back to these conversations after I've had them, especially after it's been a bit, we recorded this over summer, but learning, you know, you meet people online. I use the air quotes, meet, because. I feel like that's how we find a lot of people in the community that we're in. But you meet people online and you don't really know the scope of their background, of their education, and how they worked to get to where they are in their professional journey. So, hearing Lorenzo's background of how he worked with at risk youth and doing the wilderness training with them, and then working with, um, At the petting zoo that he grew up on in Kentucky, and then how all of these factors, when you think about it, it makes sense of why he ended up in dog training, because all of those kind of things pulled up together in a unique way, and so just His approach when it comes to working with these animals is, I mean, we hear it from so many other professionals, but it's, it's refreshing from the lens of having the background that he has. I can't explain it well enough myself, so you need to listen to this episode because it's just so Good. And I know I say that about every episode, but maybe that's just because all of my guests that I keep having on are so fucking awesome. So let's get into the episode with Lorenzo Fox. Lorenzo, I, the second you applied to be on the podcast, I was so excited seeing your name pop up because I have, we've been in the same circle for how many years now, but we've never face to face talked, which is ridiculous. but. All that is to say, I'm just, I'm so excited to have you on and talk with you. Yeah, I'm super excited to be here, too. Um, I think these are all conversations that, are well overdue in lots of industries, but for sure in this, like, very niche space that we occupy in the, like, positive dog world. Our small little corner over here that just keeps growing. Yes. so for those that may not, you know, follow you on all of your very amazing social media accounts, I, I would say that the summer Yoshi account is probably what made me find you and start following you more. Um, but so for those that may not know you, can you just share a little bit of your background and where you work and kind of where you are in your walk of life right now? Yeah. I am the lead trainer at Synergy Veterinary Behavior. We are a specialty, behavior clinic with one of the, you know, very few board certified veterinary behaviorists. Um, although in Portland, we're lucky to have like three, which is awesome. Right. We have the goldmine over here. Yeah. in the world. And, um, Synergy is also one of the very few places that we actually like have a training space. Um, unlike a lot of the, Just like small business dog trainers and in areas like Portland, because it's expensive to have a space, but synergies had one for a long time. And so, uh, I'm actually was, I was really familiar with that space before I started working there full time in early 2020, uh, because, they're the formerly trainer. And my good friend, Sarah McCloud tree is, was, is, and was one of my mentors and also was the only trainer in Portland before 2020 that. Okay. A would let me and Yoshi be in her classes, like, nobody else would allow Yoshi in their, in their spaces, because she trusted me to, to manage Yoshi well, and Yoshi's behavior is pretty extra, Yoshi is my now eight year old staffie, and, and she was also one of the only trainers that, and the only one at the time that I knew of that actually trained the way that I did, and the approach was very, concept and games based and relational versus Sit, sit, sit, sit, sit. Not effective for Yoshi from the get go. So, historically I, like I guess. So right now I am, I would say that I specialize in complex and more severe behavior struggles with, we actually see all animals. We see like. Dogs, cats, horses, birds, but, um, all of my clients, uh, have dogs at the moment. We have a trainer that takes a lot of our cat clients, and, I tend to, I tend to see and help resolve struggles that are, at the intersection of a lot of, like, various complex issues. So like dogs with severe separation anxiety, but also like human directed aggression. A lot of, um, cases where we're, you know, talking a lot about potential behavioral euthanasia because of like bite history situations. we do a lot of engaging with clients whose dogs and other animals are, I mean, I would say like 90 percent plus and that's like a conservative estimate. I'm always going to say almost every client dog I have. I ends up having some kind of physical pain or illness that has been undiagnosed or untreated. and there's a hyper fixation of mine because now I see it everywhere. And, that tends to be one of the. like, I feel uniquely positioned and super lucky to be able to work directly with a veterinary behaviorist as well as a, as well as a certified vet tech in behavior, especially because that means that I can, if I see a dog come in that. You know, we start virtual training with everyone and then I will often invite them in after they have their foundation skills down and the dog is usually prescribed behavior medication. If they are coming to us that things are significant enough, the behavior meds are really, really helpful. and by the time the animal is feeling like I feel like they are ready and could be successful to come in and do in person training, we usually transition to that. And if I see that is walking in a way that's strange, um, or I am seeing. One of the many myriad signs that I've now learned through experience tell me that the dog could be in pain or having chronic illness. Then all I really need to do is reach out to the VB and we can have a conversation about diagnostics or doing pain medication trials. And, uh, that's been a huge growth area for me because I'm somebody with chronic illness and chronic pain. And now that I'm understanding more about how it impacts our pets, it's everywhere. It's like so pervasive. Um, and. If we think about mild to moderate chronic pain and illness and people and how that impacts us like I have chronic migraines, and I know that I can tolerate a level of pain that the average person wouldn't and a lot of people with chronic pain have that experience and you would look at me. At work or at the climbing gym or whatever I'm doing, I have no idea. Yeah, like level seven pain or eight or something. So, uh, so the same is true for our dogs and it's happening all of the time. So I do a lot of that. And then I would say we tend to specialize in, uh, we have a fat phobia program. So I do a lot of cooperative care and cooperative restraint training. and a lot of our client docs have been, like, kicked out of numerous vet clinics, so getting them their, like, basic care is really important. So we do a lot of that.. So, my background is, uh, I grew up in Kentucky. on a petting zoo. So, lots of cool animals. that was really little. And my, grandpa was a conservationist and, um, he opened a, he basically like started collecting. semi exotic animals on our family farm. It's like a 650 acre farm in Kentucky that's been in our family for several generations and in the 80s people started hearing about his animals and they would want to come see them and so in the early 90s he just ended up opening a non profit petting zoo and drive all over the country and like bring home exotic animals from auctions and stuff. So um, I would spend most of my childhood, like summers, like hanging out on the farm and taking care of the animals and working with them. And, they had like, camels and zebras and Arctic foxes and Coata Mundies and all kinds of stuff. so I think I also spent most of my childhood being a dog, like, and I'm like, you know, running through the woods, literally with my dogs and things. So I think. At this point, it's not surprising to anyone that I ended up being an animal trainer and working with animals, but, um, I remember one of your guests said something about how, like, everybody in the 80s and 90s as a kid wanted to be a veterinarian, and that was, like, definitely me also, but, or a wolf biologist, really into wolves, obviously, um, and then I, Got an English degree because I'm a good writer and so random. Yeah, I just went to school. I wasn't going to go to college because I was an angsty kid. And so my, very kind English teacher that connected with me in high school like encouraged me to do the thing and um, while I was in college I started running the climbing gym at Portland State University and leading some of their courses, um, their outdoor trips and all of that and so got really into rock climbing and outdoor leadership and so. For about 10 years, I actually worked, in the wilderness doing, like, wilderness guiding and leadership education, during the summer and fall season. And then in the off season, I actually did, uh, behavior work with kids. So I worked in residential treatment for kids, foster care, um, juvenile justice facilities, that kind of stuff. Um, oh, and domestic violence shelters. I had a, I had a pretty significant crash course, um, during my first job at a DV shelter, where my boss would send me, send me to a bunch of trainings, like, almost every weekend I was going to really incredible trainings, which I feel very lucky for now, and it was all about trauma informed care, uh, because that was definitely, like, the thing in the early 2010s, you know? And learning about how that impacts the brain and learning a lot about attachment theory and how that was, um, how that pertained to being a youth advocate in a DV shelter and services and like crisis. So, I loved that work and I also ended up spending a couple of years working in, at a middle school in North Clackamas as the behavior specialist. And I. I really enjoyed that, like wilderness therapy also with like teens, etc. But the pay is atrocious and the benefits are almost non existent. And so, the burnout's really high and if to do that kind of work and not being able to care for yourself appropriately is like not gonna last. And so, I actually, when I broke up with my partner at the time after, right after we adopted a puppy, Yoshi, and so I kept the puppy, but realized very quickly that she had some very significant behavior struggles, and if I was going to keep her, The clicker training puppy class that we went to is not cutting it and that's when I actually discovered Absolute Dogs based out of the UK. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Tom Mitchell and Lauren Langman back in like 2015 or something. Um, and like that was transformational for me and my dog and so we, I got really into it. I've been to their, I've been there a few times to like work with them and work with the dogs on there. and their facility had gone to their conferences and stuff like that. And so that is, um, that was sort of my entryway into like, Oh, I think I want to do this. As a job and so I had a friend of a friend who had just serendipitously reached out to me in like 2017 or 2018 saying that she is a dog trainer and she worked for Plucky Puppy here in Portland or not anymore, but she did then and they needed an assistant. I was like, perfect. I'm going to try and do the thing. So I left working with kids and then started that. And I have a ton of teaching experience in. All different environments because I was a wilderness educator and so being able to teach classes came really easily to me. And then I started kind of jumped right into the private training thing. And I actually really liked running my own business. Um, and it was a lot of work and I don't administrative stuff like really bad at it. And so it was like December 2019 and. I saw a job posting for a trainer at Synergy and I had been taking Yoshi there for classes and she was a patient there, for the last couple of years before that and I was like, that is the only place that I would work and not work for myself and work for somebody else. Right. So I started there like two weeks before lockdown. Before I never realized that was like that close straight into the frying pan because like out of the frying pan into the fire sort of thing because we just jumped right into virtual training and I had had very little like I'm just learning what what we did there and so that was all very new but yeah then I just dove into doing all these like Facebook lives and doing all this stuff online trying to stay motivated and keep people engaged and busy with their dogs and Yeah, now we're here, and I feel really lucky to have learned a lot from Sarah McCloudry, and also I came into dog training with a pretty strong background in behavior and behavior science from working with kids, and so I think it was just sort of A, like Yoshi gave me like 10 years of experience in about two years because if she was gonna survive, I had to figure something else out because she's still one of the most challenging dogs I've ever worked with. and I just knew right off the bat that working with, like in behavior modification was definitely my path because it just, that just made sense to me. That was wow. Like you just have done a full huge circle to like, end up where you are of, okay. Yeah. I still want to work with animals. That's awesome. I mean, it's like a big bumpy circle. Yeah. It's the sort of thing where like, I, knowing what I know now, I wish that I. Still lived on a petting zoo surrounded by exotic animals. Oh my God, the amount of training you'd be doing non stop. That'd be amazing. But, yeah, so that's, that's where, that's where I'm at now. Wow. So I have so many questions. what you're like, this blew my head off of my body, taking in everything that you've done. No, it's so awesome. I just, I, it's like all the questions are flowing in my brain now and I can't even pick one. Um. But so when you worked with kids and the experience you have from that, where do you notice that overlap? Cause I'm sure you still see that now with working with kids, working with dogs, especially with the big behavior cases, how you handle that and then how you approach training and stuff with dogs right now. Do you see that overlap and do you see, like, do you approach it the same way more or less? Yeah. I think about that a lot. And it's funny that you asked me that right now, because yesterday I saw a client that, I, there's some of my favorite clients, this couple, and I've worked with them for almost two years now, because they adopted a puppy during COVID that from nine weeks, they were like, something's wrong with this puppy, but they did an incredible job with her and got help really soon from numerous folks in town.. And so, one of the things that has happened in the time that I've known them is they had a baby and, they, they were so committed to their dogs and they, like this puppy is doing awesome now and she's almost two and she's doing really well, but they're, um, they bring their kid to all the trainings and he's, you know, I watched him from. I think I first met him when he was like six weeks old and now he's like crawling and smiling and, you know, interacting and that's fun. but he is the cutest kid and he last night was, like crawling up on one of the climbs because he wanted to do, we were doing positioning and handling and he wanted to do what his dog was doing. So I was like, okay, well, here's a station for you. And. And so you like start crawling up on it and, and the client was like, you know, we actually use a lot of the tips and training you kept giving us to work with him. And I was like, yeah, it's the same really. and especially like, I'm a family dog mediator through program and, um, so much of like, so many of her hacks are really just like, Ways that we interact with, human children, and, um, you know, like explaining things to them, right? And giving them the opportunity to, to be wrong and to figure stuff out. And also like observing in a way that is more objective and less full of all of these stories and just letting them do the things that come naturally to them, and finding ways to facilitate that in a way that's safe, et cetera. So, yes, I would say that. One of the, you know, there's some, those are those, there are these really obvious connections between working with kids and working with dogs in terms of before anything else, we need to build a relationship because it doesn't matter how much, you know, about dog training or how, whatever your plan is, if there's not a relationship between. You know, the, the client and the dog that's healthy and starting at least to build trust and starting to give each other the space that they need to like navigate, then nothing is going to be accomplished. And so there's that focus for sure that relational connection and having some kind of secure attachment if there isn't 1 yet. And by attachment, I just mean, uh, the ability to, oh, how do I, like, let's say a healthy attachment would be a child's attachment to their caregiver or guardian that allows them to explore the world and try new things and know that they have a safe anchor to return to. Oh, yeah. Knowing that when the inevitable relational rupture happens, repair is inevitable as well. So that is. You know, if I need help, my securely attached person or creature is going to provide that with me and for me, like having that, that just intuitive, like faith is kind of what healthy attachment is. so facilitating that relationship is really, really important, but I think even more so recently I've been thinking about how. Our relationships with our clients also really have to be done in a, a nurturing way, a way that is, you know, there's that quotation about like. children won't remember what you said or what you did, but they will remember how you made them feel. And that's absolutely true about our clients, because I have some clients that I've worked with for a really long time and for reasons that are not their fault or their dog's fault, they're struggling to make progress or they've made tiny, tiny, tiny little steps in progress, but they're the way that they feel supported and the way that they. Feel enriched and reinforced by our interactions and the space that we've created for them and their dog that they just keep coming back. And that's, um, you know, I think if you are somebody who works in behavior modification, you know that as much as the. aversive trainers would like to pretend it's not the case. It is the case that there's no like finish. If you work with it, there's no point at which it's cured or fixed. That's not a thing. And so if, if I've done my job properly, just like I, I don't have any children, but I've worked with kids a lot and I also am significantly older than my siblings. I have like four little brothers. And so I've done a lot of that when they were little as well. a lot of it is. Helping people feel reinforced and safe to continue trying and continue safe space. Like you said that you're the anchor. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like, we're doing little bits of that with our clients. And if I, if they don't feel, even if we're doing everything right, like logistically and objectively, and like, you know, coming up with our, with our behavior plan, it actually doesn't really matter if they don't feel. If they don't feel like something has shifted, you know, they, they often, if there's anything close to an emergency with dog training, it's people who come to us with their dogs experiencing significant aggressive behaviors. And, you know, or like, my dogs are trying to kill each other or my dog bit my kid in the face like these kinds of things that. Training is never an emergency, but it feels very urgent for them, right? And so, so I think if we are not first identifying that, like. Safe or not safe. And that's what kids and dogs just, and I mean adults for sure too, but we're less aware of it. Our brains are always doing is like safe or not safe, and being able to help them try and facilitate that safe environment is like goes way farther than any kind of training plan. So, I would say. In terms of trauma informed care, one of the things to remember is that when an organism is emotionally overwhelmed, and there is a scientific definition of that when it comes to like chemicals in the brain, they are incapable of making decisions and of processing information. So, today I was, talking to my therapist and I was trying to describe like, you know, it's not that our clients are, it's not that my clients are always, It's having a meltdown or in crisis. There was a crisis and then we see them on the, on the like deescalation trajectory usually, which is actually how I used to describe when I worked as a behavior specialist too, because a kid would have a meltdown in class or a blow up in class, but, and then we would be radioed. By the time I went to the class to pick up the kid, they were now. The peak had happened, the overflow had happened, and now they were at de escalation. The calm down, yeah. Like, now this is where the processing occurs, and the ability to like, now we need to assist with self regulation. So, that like emotional regulation and physiological regulation. And so I said to my, to my therapist, I was like, well you know, if if they're not in crisis, then they're at least experiencing like intermittent overwhelm and he was like, that's really good. Is that over? I don't know. I'm sure it's a thing, but I just like said it because I was thinking about how that's my experience with ADHD. Also, it's like life is just intermittent overwhelm, but we need to be able to identify. When we are feeling overwhelmed, as well as notice when, and of course we're pretty good if you are a reasonably well informed dog training professional, you can identify when a dog is overwhelmed. Right. But are you able to identify when your client or your student is experiencing emotional overwhelm? And that can be so different depending on so many socialization factors. So recognizing when that's happening and switching into like regulatory mode is really important. and helping that de escalation and that regulation. So a lot of what I do now and focus on is like co regulation between dogs and their people. And um, What does that usually look like? Well it looks like, getting them to stop making things, trying to make things happen and just, it's like creating a space of being more physically present in their bodies so that they can observe their dog and just like, just relax, like stop trying to make behavior happen and, and realize that you're existing in this space right now With your pet, with your companion, and if we, I mean, of course there's modalities that help a lot, like I like to use figure eight walking, I like to use take a breath from Leslie McDevitt's Control Unleashed, I definitely teach a lot of deep breathing, but I also like to sometimes just teach it organically by literally, like, you need to roll your shoulders back and take a deep breath and let it out, and You know, relax your arms so they're not tight on the leash and like show your dog what you want him to do. And the average, the average person that I work with is often with a lot of other trainers and they are experiencing their own level of trauma associated with their dog's behavior. Sometimes, and it's like most of the time, the dog is ready to move on and progress and take on more challenge way before the human is, because the human is very wrapped up in their story of the dog's behavior and how it has negatively and sometimes really affected their lives. and, that comes down to like, Yes. Like let's acknowledge those stories. Let's make sure we're like celebrating small wins, et cetera. But don't fester on it. Yeah. Like you won't calm down. And I'm like, okay, I noticed that you are sitting on the edge of your seat. Your shoulders are in your ears, staring at your dog and you're trying to like capture calm. Hello. So it's one of those like just self reflective and self awareness things. I think that for me came from Yoshi spent the first. nine months that I had her after I moved out of my ex's house and I was just living with my two dogs and and her and it was you know my two dogs and yeah and and Yoshi's presence was that I remember like she would pace and and cry and bark all of the time and she's always trying to crawl on my head I couldn't even sit down in my own house for like months because it was so stressful to just be around her and And I remember one time, like, just being really, really frustrated with her behavior, and I was like, why won't you relax? And then I, like, realized that for the past hour, I had been pacing from room to room, looking for things to occupy my brain and my hands. It was like, Oh. Shit. Yeah, I should realize. And then I can try and foster that space for her, but like how disingenuous it is, is it of us to try and demand these things of dogs and of children when we are like pathologically reactive to things all of the time, but because we're adults, it's somehow like. Okay, or socially acceptable, right? Oh, my God. No, you just explained like me going through all of Fern's adolescence and like, I feel like getting a puppy will humble anyone very quickly, especially with one that is so high energy, you know, and I'm sure you experience this too. There's so many times where, you know, we train puppies and we tell our clients, Oh, just do this, and then you get a puppy and you're like, Okay. Book me. I did not know what I was talking about. And like, she just immediately humbled me to the point where I was like, I need to change every way that I am approaching this because everything I told my clients is not applying right now, and I need to be able to sleep and like eat and feed myself so I can take care of her and. Oh, my God. Yes. It's there are points where, of course, we get frustrated. We're human. And I would be like, Can you shut up? Because she would bark so much. And then I'm like, Okay, I'm yelling back at you. Clearly, that's not going to help. Of course, you're going to keep yelling back at me like I need to take it down a little bit. And so, yes, I love that you touch so much on that connection and how we totally affect one another. And if I feel like a lot of the times Trainers are pointing that out to their clients because they don't even see that and it takes someone else coming into the situation and saying like, look, you guys are feeding off one another. Of course, like things are going to change. Um, and everything you just explained the entire time you were explaining just the owner in that scenario and the tension and the how they're presenting themselves. The word that came to mind immediately was guilt because. A lot of the times we feel that guilt of, I'm not enough for my dog. I'm not providing them the right outlet. I'm fucking up. This is my fault. I didn't give them a good quality of life. And then of course, that's going to change how our inner story feels for our dog. Of course, that's going to make us shrivel up and not be present and be in the moment. Cause we're just festering on, you know, we fucked up. We're horrible. Like in that inner self talk is gonna screw us up. Yeah. And it is the kind of thing that, you know, it's not about anything like metaphysical. It's just about manifestation and the, in the, in the context of conditioning. So classical conditioning is happening all the time. And I remember like recently I was watching a webinar with, Ryan Cartlidge and Susan Friedman. And, uh, Susan said something, about how she had just read this. that, like, 80 plus percent of our behaviors are completely classically, like, respond, like, responding to conditioning to the point that, you know, we think we're in control and we never are. And often, the more that Like every, anytime that I think I'm in control or I've got something figured out, I'm immediately knocked back down because especially with working with dogs, you know, and they're like, Oh, okay. I've got a formula for that. And as soon as you think you, you know what you're doing, um, everything goes to shit. That humility is really important. but I, but I think also. the layers of, of social conditioning and judgment and guilt and expectation, expectation. Yes. And especially when people are in front of a trainer. It's so weird. It's the pressure. You're like, I need to like, you're supposed to be doing what he's supposed to, you know, yeah, but dogs to sit over and over again. I think like something that I've learned in my personal life and in my, and it really has become important in my professional life and I'm trying to make it more explicit in the way that I make choices as I see dynamics changing between people and their dogs or between clients like couples and working with their dog is that I definitely ascribe to a relational model and the phrase like, Okay. Let's prioritize the relationship is a really essential phrase for me right now in thinking, um, about not only my personal relationship, even like with my with my partner or with my friends, but also with my dog. And I think it's with my adolescent dog. I have a Dutch shepherd and he, um, Rufio is the first dog that I've ever like, bought, like, went to a breeder and like did the whole thing. Um, Absolutely in no way what I expected and has really, really pushed me to learn so many new things, even beyond like he and Yoshi are similar in some ways, but very, very different dogs. And so just a whole different host of challenges. And, that is super, super humbling because I have to, I've had to really think about the way that I engage in each moment with these expectations and fixation on like, Myself and my needs and protecting myself from all of the self judgment that's probably way more powerful than the like judgment from other people, but I'll and just look at this like creature in front of me who's making choices. And it doesn't actually matter what my, what our long term behavioral goals are in the moment if there is a rupture or a rupture. A disconnect or some kind of like butting heads or a moment of friction that relational rupture if we do not prioritize the relationship aside from the details of the moment, it's probably going to fall apart. And so, slowing myself down with my own like self regulation techniques and just being like. It's actually more important how you feel right now and how, how you, you, the other organism, and me, and like how we feel when this interaction ends and we transition to the next one. And so, that has almost nothing to do with operant conditioning in this, in the, in the context of like, here's my behavior plan. Right, right, right. Like, connection. I just need to like, Like we need to reconnect here. I love the way you explain everything. It's so like soothing on my brain. Um, I'm sure your clients like really benefit from that because just the way you break it down, it's not overwhelming. It's easy for my brain to take in. I'm not like staring off into space, trying to understand what you're explaining. So just that alone, I'm sure. so with. Your background experience with everything you have experienced and after running your own business and then going and working for another business, what has that been like for you in just prioritizing your mental health? With work, but also just, I mean, working for someone else is just a whole different ballgame than working for yourself. Does that make sense? That was a weird question. yeah, that is like, A, I would say it was actually really lucky. And just pure luck that I got this job right before COVID because I actually was able to remain employed, throughout, I went, there was like a month or so where my hours dropped, but then, uh, with the payroll protection and everything, I was actually able to go right back to full time. And that was phenomenal because I probably would have been almost entirely out of work, um, if I had still been working for myself, so that was huge. And, I'm really grateful for that. the other thing that is really helpful is like, right, at least for the last few years as I've been sorting out my mental health and my whole journey, it's been really helpful to be able to clock in and clock out and not need out like add in that I'm not working or getting new clients or doing paperwork or updating my spreadsheet or whatever. You know, accounting stuff that all the nitty gritty in the background every time I'm every moment I'm not doing that is like me losing money and potentially like wasting time and I That that's such a toxic mentality. And so, at the at the time that I was doing it, I was not in a place, I think, where I could adequately manage that in a healthy way or a healthier way, or at least true habits. And I think that's a lot less true now. But the only reason that I've been able to build some of those faculties in myself in terms of managing my own life is, is because I've been able to have it. Consistent employment, like even Synergy has had honestly very few, but some dips where I maybe like wouldn't have clients for a chunk of time. I'm an hourly employee, so I'm still getting paid. It's consistent and I have health insurance for the first time in my life, besides when I was a kid. And so the health insurance was pretty much the only reason that I was able to seek mental health care and physical health care and my gender transition in 2021. In Oregon, that's paid for. I absolutely would not be able to afford have afforded any of that on my own. So of course, that's like a whole systemic problem, but it is the world in which we live right now in this country. And so I think that was that's been huge. And I think there's, I, there are a lot of challenges working for a business that I very dislike for sure. But, I have, I've always believed in what Synergy is doing. And I think that we are doing something that is I don't, nobody else is doing it. And I don't mean that in the way that like other people are doing cooperative care and other people, like other people, you know, we have three veterinary behaviorists in Portland. Like, but we have a very niche demographic of folks that we serve and the types of clients that I get to work with that are just, it's just different. And so I, and I, I want there, I don't, I was just talking to my therapist about this also. It's like, I don't need to be, or want to be like, Like dominate the market. And I think it's industry to continue to be awesome and to affect positive change. It's about like finding your role and your niche and like your thing. And so my thing is not going to be somebody else's. And that's, that's a good thing. That's like positive. Yes. We all need to do the same thing and we really, really shouldn't. People should find their lane and what inspires them and stay in it and beautify it and really enrich it. And it's easy to fall victim to like, Oh, those people are posting that stuff. I have to do the same thing. Oh, I need to get caught up on that new topic and like that new skill or I'm going to fall behind. But like. PREACH! Not my lane like it's it's not inspiring to me and it's not what if I don't feel fully invested and if I don't feel reinforced, then I'm not going to be an effective teacher or an effective coach for my clients. So, I think that that's what I really like about synergy is that. I think Dr. Bali is incredible at what she does, and she's extremely knowledgeable. So, uh, yeah, I think like there's. There's been a, that this place for me at Synergy has been phenomenal for my growth and my learning. And they also, um, Vali and Scott who own the, who own the practice. They also have paid for a lot of continuing education. So I've been able to get certifications that I've really wanted. And Valli is really interested in working with horses and with birds also. So, had some really cool, like interactions and learning around that. So I feel like there's, um, for the most part over the last few years, the benefits of like. outweighed the, the negatives or the risks, but, um, but there's still a lot that I want to do. And so I know that at some point I will be working for myself again, probably, but, uh, but being able to work on my own personal journey and know that I have the security of the job and not having to think about it after I clock off has been essential the last few years for my own, uh, I think for my survival, actually. Like, yeah. So yeah, that's been huge. Well, and I'm sure that just this time away from having to, you know, kind of put your foot off the gas pedal, not have to do all the bullshit that is entailed with running a business. It's going to set you up in a way for when you do choose to start your business, you're going to be prepared because you're going to. It's you gain more experience when you work for someone else. It's just, it has how it happens. so with that, I am very curious how you manage and take care of your mental health, because a lot of us get burnt out. A lot of us deal with compassion, fatigue, and overexerting ourselves. So I'd love to know how you, I don't want to say prevent it. Cause it's not always preventable, but how you notice it and check in with yourself and then. Bounce back from it. If you do get burnt out. yeah. So I think there's all the like normal stuff. So I have kind of been in and out of therapy since I was a kid. My parents divorced when I was really young and I had a really bizarre family, in lovely ways, uh, and also in really, really hard ways. And so, just, uh, I just had like a weird childhood experience that was kind of different than a lot of other people's. And so I, had started that journey when I was young and um, I found, I spent a few years sans therapy and then I found my current therapist like early 2019. So I've actually been seeing him for a really long time. Um, and he actually, I've never had a male therapist until this guy and which helps because I'm actually a man now. So that's helpful. That worked out well. Uh, and at the time I was like, uh, Like, men can't be therapists. They would never do that. Um, which, like, That's how I feel. Like, I feel weird about it. Actually, my therapist agrees. So, it's like, he actually, like, specializes in working with toxic masculinity and runs out, like, healing men and their bullshit. So, yeah, he's great. That's one of the reasons I liked his profile, but it's also because he wrote in his profile that he brings his therapy dog to work. And I was like, Oh, sold. And I was like, so if I show up and this dog is wearing a prong collar, I will know immediately that we are not a good fit. Yeah. Oh, and they weren't? No. Oh yeah. No, he's awesome. Yeah. He's great. His first therapy dog has passed and now there's a, he has the, the second iteration. Um, and I, but I like, We have a, we have a loose boundaries relation, like therapeutic relationship. He also like shares a lot about his own mental health journey, which I really like. and he, so I like, I went through his, the, the whole death of his dog and I've actually been, I see my therapist weekly and I have for, um, so that's been really helpful. Um, I also like, um, I grew up in a family that was pretty like anti western medicaid medicine in general, uh, and I really never I was I was conditioned to be like, Just get over it. Suffering is part of life. You're gonna suffer. It's just what it is and that and that medication is more harmful than good and I hugely disagree now, but, uh, I, I really had to first grapple with that when Yoshi was about a little less than not even two years old and had been It was like the second time she had pretty viciously attacked my other dog. And at the time, I was like, if I'm going to keep this dog, I have to make sure my other dog is safe. And, um, that's when I, I had been taking some classes at Synergy, um, for Yoshi. And like, we took the reactive rover class and we did some nose work, et cetera, because she just couldn't leave the house. Like, There was no walking this dog for years. We have lovely walks now, but it's largely to medication and training. But, I was like, that was my, my comp, my moment. I was just like, I'm going to put her on meds because. I want her to live. And that's where we're at right now, but when I saw your life, yeah, like, and then when I, when I saw how massively helpful it was, I also realized that that's something that we should have done a lot sooner. And I wish that people didn't see medication as a last resort because it should be part of a comprehensive. Behavior modification plan. And also for humans, it should be considered a weight modality. It's not, it's not the devil. And it also doesn't mean you failed at all. And I say that as someone who, like, I have. I'm going to be 35 this year and I have done so many like during my 20s, I was like, I was like, my nickname was the Energizer Bunny. I'm exhausted. I'm tired all the time, but I would, I was constantly doing things. I did everything from like being a firefighter to like doing like, like epic climbing trips to working in like, like wilderness EMT, like I've done all kinds of things. Oh my God. I didn't know life didn't actually have to be that hard. Like everything was so hard for me and all of the time, even when I was very, very young. And so it, when I was in, when, you know, during COVID I went through a really, like I was in a relationship at the beginning of COVID and we, like a lot of people had to kind of, we ended up actually moving in together. I would say prematurely, which we were. pretty honest about at the time, but we couldn't stay where we were and during lockdown we both ended up getting sent home to work and so we ended up renting a house together and, this was someone I'd actually known for a really long time, uh, which is probably the only reason that I didn't respond appropriately to many, many red flags in the first year of the relationship. And, this person ended up having a Very significant and terrifying series of like psychotic breakdowns, but it was like the dead of lockdown like summer of 2020 and it was a super traumatic and it was like the first time that I was like, oh, I am in an abusive relationship I. Never thought that was going to happen to me, but lots of people say that. and so, it, once I finally extricated myself from that, and um, got them out of my space, and out of my life mostly, it was just like me. Alone in the house. Oh, and to be alone with yourself and your thoughts, especially when you can't go anywhere, do anything and socialize. Like, yeah, it was, um, it was a lot. And I think the, the, the first breakthrough for me was that I've always struggled with chronic migraines and, um, it was getting, up until 2020 over the five years before that it was getting significantly worse to the point that I was having like, you know, Curled up on the sidewalk, like throwing up, not able to see like really bad migraines. And I've had themselves like 10 and it got worse and worse until I was like, I can't live like this anymore. I'm always in pain. So I finally like went to the doctor and it was like, I am experiencing this thing. And they were like, that sounds really bad. And so I did like a ton of make sure I didn't have a tumor or whatever, but migraines. And then I started taking preventative meds and I was like. Oh my God, this is like life changing. I was like, I, don't have a headache. Like I, I haven't, I can like go a day without being in severe pain. That's amazing. And that like unlocked for me this, like, maybe I could pursue other things that could make my quality of life better. And my next step was pursuing ADHD, diagnosis and then. Starting ADHD medication dramatically changed my life, uh, in a way that I did not expect. Like, blew me away, and I've corroborated some of the more, surprising impacts with other folks who, like, close friends that saw my journey, and then were like, I think I'm gonna go ask my doctor about this. Because, like, obviously It starts a ripple! Friends also have ADHD, they just don't know. yeah, it was amazing, I think the biggest thing For me was, and my, I didn't tell my good friend this, but she shared it after two weeks of meds. And I was like, I knew it was real. I hadn't made it up. It was that I've spent my whole life like. Two things, like one was constantly subjecting myself to an endless series of like negative self talk and just berating myself in my head. Yes. And constantly about everything and constantly trying to control my behavior and punishing myself repeatedly for not being able to do things that other people have just seemed to be able to do or that I'm supposed to do. Yes. Thanks. A lot of trauma for, you know, neurodivergent kids and, you know, weirdo kids that were accused of their, their mistakes and their errors were moralized and internalized as like, you are like this, right? That's shame. There's something wrong with you. There's something wrong with society. Right. And so it wasn't ever just like, Oh, like, what's wrong? Do you need help? It was always. You need to, you should be able to do this. If you can't, it's because you're willfully not doing it and you don't care. And so constantly like that just was a stream in my head, but also my anxiety has always been really high. And one of the things that was also a constant thing was my brain was always grasping for something to be anxious about and to be worried about. And it's wild that that is a reinforcing. It's like, even when I would have a moment of peace and be like, oh, okay, life feels good. My brain would be like, what's the thing? Is it? Yeah. I'm like, oh yeah, shit. It's that thing related to my taxes or whatever. And then suddenly I'm back in it. And it was like a few weeks into taking meds. And I was like, My brain is, like, quiet. Yes! Oh my god. I keep saying yes because you are literally saying everything in my brain. And I even would be like, Wait, but isn't there something I should be worried about? And my brain was like, It's not a big deal. And having that space open up was mind blowing. And, like, yeah, I was, like, in tears. Like, this is incredible. I didn't know, like, life really doesn't have to be that hard. It really, really doesn't. And then the other thing that happened that my friend also was like, I just noticed that, like, I like myself so much more, like I was just like moving through the world like, Oh, like I enjoy spending time by myself and I like who I am. And I didn't have her been something that had ever crossed my mind. And, like, it seems very simple but it's really not because I massively impacts your emotional experience throughout the day so yeah that was, but in the like 90s when you're kind of. Taught to not really like yourself. Of course, you're going to get in that spiral. And then when you finally are like, wait, I love myself. I love my brain and how it acts and medication helps that sometimes. Yeah. To appreciate, like, I, I, there are things I love about my brain and the way it works and it's one of the reasons that I'm who I am and be able to, and I feel like on that note, like not only with the space opening, but this idea of like, I can like myself, like I can actually. Right, well, proud and feel like I actually pretty cool and maybe worth knowing like, the other part of that for me was then that things that are available to other people might also be available to me that I also am entitled to things and one of the things was that. I have a, a favorite comedian who was my favorite comedian at the time. Their name now is, is River Butcher and that, uh, they had a different name at the time, but I, I, I watched their, their Instagram journey of like starting their gender transition and their, and previously I've always been like, ah, yes, people who are trans. That is a thing that they experience that is exactly in line with everything that I've ever felt about myself, but that's not for me, because I'm not like, that's for them, but I don't get to do those things because of pure all the reasons and then them do that and having this like space open. I was like, I think I'm going to do that thing. And so I just, I actually didn't tell anybody. I, for me, it just felt very, very natural. I just like went to the doctor and was like, I'm going to need some hormones. And then that week I just like texted my family. It was like, Hey, I'm going to do this thing. And it, it was, Obviously, like, the most important thing I've done in my adult life, and I've been able to do it a lot sooner, but that, for me, it was like being able to unlock this concept of not only do I need help, but that, and it's okay, like, it's actually a good and brave thing to ask for help, and I would have said that to anyone, I truly feel that for myself was very different, but that not only that I am able to do it, but that I'm entitled to it, Yes. That I'm entitled to feel better. And there are ways to do that that might seem out of reach, but usually that's only because of the stories that we tell ourselves that are, like, they're self limiting, like, well, and here's why. Here's all the reasons why. Yeah. and I, yeah, I think, like, unlocking that for myself was huge, uh, on, like, a, a, a general basis, but it also meant that now, on a daily basis, on a more, like, micro level. Knowing that I am entitled to a certain amount of care and love for myself, even if, even if nobody else has it for me, which isn't true, but sometimes it feels that way. Right. Means that I am able to establish boundaries and advocate for myself in a way that I haven't. And know that even if Even, like, it's not an all or nothing. Life is never all or nothing, which is a, the all or nothing mentality is very much a pillar of white supremacy, and it is something that I've been trying to deconstruct about myself for a long time in the way that I view things, and the way that I behave, and that looking at nuance and looking at, like, both and nuance and looking at, like, both and Being true, uh, has been huge. And so being able to do things like if I don't finish this task right now, because I feel myself draining, or I feel myself burning out, or I need something as simple as like going to the bathroom or getting a snack, small little things during the day, this is not going to define who I am or make me unworthy of, you're not a failure, an acceptance and the ability, like, even if I. fucked up everything, I would still be entitled to those things. Like having to remind myself of that and also just like actually lean into it, like what does that look like for me, has been huge. And uh, engaging in activities that are unrelated to work. Important. I've been a rock climber for a long time and my climbing partner is one of my very close friends for the last 15 years and we've been climbing together twice a week forever and that's huge. Uh, since January I've been actually going to like a, like a gym gym and doing like weights and stuff and it's this really badass like, uh, gender inclusive gym owned by queer people who all have all these like free BIPOC classes and really prioritize like, like weight neutral stuff and are really Love that. rejecting any kind of like fatphobia or judgment. They don't make comments about aesthetics or anything. It's just like awesome humans and that's been great. and the last thing that has been huge for me in the last like six months is the actual integration of The fact that the vast majority, it's honestly all, but I'd say at least the vast majority of the things that other people do or say, even in my intimate relationships, have really nothing to do with me. And I, what I mean by that is more, it's not that, that that's very different from being accountable for my behavior. That's right. Exactly. Like there is accountability. That is really important and comes with self awareness and deconstruction of all the fucked up conditioning that society has done to us and continues to do to us and how we affect harm, like impact. Yes, we should be accountable for that. But that's very different from taking things personally. And taking it in when you don't need to. Right. And like turning it into. A story about who I am and, how I am perceived and it's so like I have been conditioned to do that my whole life. And so letting go of that and actively reminding myself as I feel like the reactivity coming up in my own emotional experience and that feeling of being unsafe when somebody does something and then feeling like I need to fix it quickly or control it is like. I know have no, I have no control over that. I cannot control what that, what anybody else does, including my adolescent dog. and that, like, it's actually not in any way a reflection on, on me and my, like, sense of stability in myself. So, um, lastly, I also took a really awesome class, um, like an 11 week class doing qigong meditation. Ooh! And I, that's not something my ADHD brain has ever been able to do. That is hard. Which is really cool because you have to memorize a series of hand movements. And that being able to like, it's like fidgeting. Yeah. So I was like, Oh yeah, like I can definitely get with that, but asking me to sit still, no, I'm going to sit still and like, do not know that was like physically painful to me, but yeah. Right. Trying to get the hand movements down and like memorizing the sequence. Like that was really transformative for me as well. Oh my God. I love your brain so much. I love you so much. Just, well, it's because you're saying everything that like is in here for me, but I can't articulate it in the way you do. And just the way you do. Oh my God. Yes, exactly. And oh God, we could, I, we could keep talking for hours, but I'm not going to do that to you. But it's the, me. Oh my god, I don't even know where to start, but it's Not taking in, and you saw this, I did a post on can't remember what it was the least fine. I did a post and it was someone's opinion of you and how you operate your business is none of your damn business. Same thing. Yes, exactly. It's, you know, a lot of the times people will tell us what they think of us and who they think we are. And then we, you know, I love that you're just like, yeah, whatever. but it. A lot of the times for those of us that grew up with that, you know, I grew up with being told that my family wasn't the best. And it was a lot of, you know, I was the redheaded stepchild in my family. I was the only white one in my family. So it was like, you don't belong. You don't belong here. And so. Growing up with that narrative repeatedly, of course, I'm going to feel that way. So of course, I'm going to worry about what everyone else is saying about me to me. And when you're finally able to shake that off and it did take help me getting on, you know, medication to realize that of, wait, I can love myself and I don't need to hear what other people think about me. That doesn't reflect who I am. That doesn't reflect my worth. My work productivity does not affect who I am. That is not me. Being able to reject that and still be a whole human being and love what we do and love ourselves in that aspect is Huge. And I think that a lot of us are just now realizing that, you know, COVID was a blessing and a curse in so many ways, because I think it, it showed a lot of us where we needed to grow and change for sure. Yeah, yeah, I definitely like just sitting with myself for that long and that's it was during that time, like during lockdown and when I was like by myself that I took the cheat on class and that feeling of, of like, Being alone versus feeling alone are different things, and I really like to be alone. I don't like to feel alone, and I think most of my life I actually have felt alone, even when I'm, or sometimes most often when I'm surrounded by people. I'm a really big fan of Bright Eyes and have been for a long time and, uh, he has that line in one of his songs that's like, you know, when I'm completely alone at a table of friends. And I think, that like disconnect and kind of dissociative feeling was such a big part of my life for a long time. And it is very rare these days. And so. Right. That feels like progress. So before I let you go, um, I am curious, what are the steps that you take to not only prioritize yourself with work, but also just be more mindful in how you set things up with your dogs and with your clients? I think part of it is noticing when I am like, you know, if you think about life and activities and our interests as maybe a bunch of different bubbles, then, if I am pouring. a lot of time into a bubble that seems to be getting bigger and bigger and like overshadowing the other ones. I don't want to use the phrase balance because I don't think that's very helpful, but it's more like if I Counterbalance? Yeah, maybe, but like there's only so much space. So if the, if the one bubble is getting too big, the other guys are going to pop because there's, there's, there is unfortunately a combined. I like this analogy. Yes. So when I, when I noticed that that's happening, it usually contributes to, and I can see it happening usually in, an increase in agitation and frustration. and even though I was assigned female at birth, uh, I have very deeply ingrained toxic masculine traits and one of them is that, is that a lot of my emotions have historically come out, uh, through the like, gendered socially acceptable avenue of like anger. And so if I'm upset or feeling overwhelmed or having more tender emotional experiences, it will look like. irritation and irritability stacking up and overreactions to things that are small. So I am, I am a reactive dog. And, uh, when I, when I feel my bucket filling up, I think I find that Interestingly enough, my interactions with my clients a lot of the time are actually quite energizing, as long as we are achieving, like, a relational space. And so, really, like, trying to condition myself to listen more than I talk, which, uh, is a struggle, um, but doing, doing that and also, doing the same with my, with my dogs and my other animals. There's a lot of animals, males, uh, but, like, trying to Slow down and prioritize the relationship, regardless of what feels urgent, because urgency is a construct and the vast majority of the time if we are feeling a sense of urgency, it's because of some kind of like contrived. External structure that actually doesn't matter that much. and with a DHD also, I think we tend to, like those of us who have it tend to be, uh, especially if we were socialized as girls, tend to be more sensitive to that because we know like we wanna be extra early to stuff, because we know how much it sucks to be late. Yep. And there's a lot of pressure, so we're always like putting pressure on ourselves. I actually took a. A weekend, there's like a day seminar with Shade Whitesall, um, last, what even month is it? I used to sometime over the winter. I, I've been, I've been having play struggles with Rufio since he was very little, um, where he was very much like, I want to possess the toy, I do not want to play with you. And I was like, about it. But I'm also realizing that I was like, I'm this is like really unpleasant. It's like not fun for either of us. And I'm definitely making it in our interaction and more punishing for him to want to play with me. And so that was like getting kind of worse. But I was starting to I was trying to figure out what I need to do, and it was to stop doing things, which is a very, like, Daoist thing, like, I never read, like, the, the Dao teaching, like, it's very much about, like, if you do nothing, Everything is done. And that seems silly, but when I was getting to that, starting to get to that understanding, and I had just fully disengaged from trying to make stuff happen with him, and then I took that, that seminar with her, and I got to bring Rufio with me, uh, which was great, and she gave me, you know, even just a few little tidbits during the day that really helped bring it into, into place, and that was very much about, like, relaxing, and not, and like, letting go of my attachment. To what I thought things were supposed to look like, or that final picture, and letting things just be what they are, and, and then, and responding instead of reacting. So, I think, to my level of like trying to be mindful is when I noticed the irritation welling up it's usually because there is a disconnect between myself and the client, or between maybe the client and their dog, or between what I thought, was going to occur, and what I wanted to occur, and what actually needs to happen. So, slowing down, uh, I do a lot of, I've always, because I'm a climber, and I have worked in emergency services, and I have done a lot of like, if I'm good at anything, it is that I am really rock solid in an emergent situation. So when, when the shit hits the fan, I I am at my, my peak. And so, I have actually like conditioned myself to do some really careful breathing and it just happens like through my nose and relaxing and I do that on, on climbs when I feel myself starting to panic. I just breathe and I like, I can feel it through my whole body. And so usually if I find myself doing that, it's usually because something is off with like. My expectation of what I'm trying to force and what actually needs to come out of the interaction. So it's really about like, it's not about me. Right again. Yes. Control of like trying to, to grasp because it just falls, you know, just slips through your fingers. So, I don't know, it might seem kind of metaphysical but I think that. taking a step back when we feel that overwhelm, that intermittent overwhelm is really important. And that can be physically, like, I will say, yes, I changed my state and I will like literally like move and just do something to change the environment to change my internal environment. Like, I'm going to go get something to eat or drink and make sure it has protein in it. I'm going to like. Step outside and look at the sky, or I'm just going to like lay on the floor and have my dog lay his head on my chest. I love floor time. Usually if you come into the training room at any time after like noon in between sessions, I'm probably just laying flat on the floor. So do a lot of floor time. I love that you say that. Cause I was just talking with, uh, Erin Marion from Down to Earth Dog lady yesterday. And I was telling her, I'm like, there are some days where I just, I'm like, I need something to bring me down and I can't think in the moment and I will just lay on the floor and will just come over can't be like a cow. Like, I have to lay on the floor floor. I need the hard surface to just like, bring me down. I don't know what it is, but it's soothing. And I'm just like, we're going to be here for like, 10 minutes. My husband will be walking in and he'll be like, what do you. Do it. And I'm like, I'm just trying to like regulate right now. If you like, after I teach a group class, it's, it's, it's very, I have like an, I have like a teacher persona and it gets, it's a lot and it's all, it's very exhausting. I wouldn't say as much as I'm talking today and in general, I'm not really, I'm, I'm actually like a pretty. I like to be a lone person. And so, so I, when I switch into my instructor persona, it is like very different from my just like day to day. Right. You're on thing. So as soon as everybody leaves and I have cleaned up the first night, all on the floor, just lay down. It's like literally grounding. Probably. I'm sure there's all kinds of physiological stuff with it, but great. Okay. I know I said I was going to let you go, but 1 last thing, advice you have for anyone that is looking to get started. Maybe they're, you know. Or in between starting their own and working for someone else, just any advice you have for anyone that's just getting their toes wet and training. I actually, like, I just taught a lot more classes than I had initially intended to for the whole dog Academy, Portland. And so that cohort of students, I was fortunate to get to know them, but we kind of have a lot of. I've been thinking a lot about that because these are folks who are just getting into the dog trainer certification world. Um, and I think advice, again, I came to it from a weird place. Like I didn't, I didn't do like the Academy of dog trainers or any of those schools because I had all of that behavior stuff already. And so I just sort of like, then I started to, I got like but I would say it's really important to remain. self aware and actively work on extending your, not just your knowledge of, of the incredibly and rapidly growing field that we live in with so many incredible new modalities and discoveries happening. I think that is, it's also really easy and I'm definitely guilty of like going way too far into that. But I think, It is, it is, it can be very reinforcing and it's a kind of a dangerous trap to fall into complacency or doing the same things over and over. So if, if we find ourselves staying within a specific insular community or circle, and, not meeting new people, talking to different, like, dipping into different types of communities and different training. Circles, I guess, uh, learning from lots of different people. Like, I always tell aspiring trainers, like, just, like, find the, the people. And, you know, those folks in the community that I can, you know, list the people that I've learned so much from. That I, I like the way that they present things. I like the way that they teach. I like their priorities. And then I follow them and they bring me to other people to learn from. So, and for me, that big part of that is not just, like, expanding that kind of knowledge of, Not just like, you know, it's not about professional networking, but truly giving yourself access to new information and learning, how can I not only be a better trainer, but actually, like, be less inhibitory toward my animals? How can I be even more cooperative? How can I be more? Genuine and authentic and being aware of this like power relationship between me and this creature and how that impacts Every interaction that we have but also that knowledge about ourselves And so I have been doing One of the things that I couldn't do for years and years before I started adhd meds is read books I am not I didn't make a visual book for years. Yes soon as I started it was a Like i've been voraciously reading now to say that I am listening. It is unaudible But that 100 percent counts. It does. And it means that I'm like, carrying through books. I also have actual books that I read, but a big part of that is like, I love fiction. I also love writing, but I also have been, I invest a lot of time and energy in like, trying to just be a better person. Like, I think that's really essential because I, I see a lot of people in the, in Positive dog trainer community, and it is one of the reasons that I'm like, not super in it, because it, it is, it feels a little punishing to me to try and navigate the very I know what you're trying to say, yeah. Very, like, broader social tendency. to blame and punish other people. Yeah. And even like, even if we prioritize the feelings of the animals, so many people are like, just like bitching about their clients or like, um, talking about even just the phrase, like, Client, I don't even use it anymore. What is it? Um, uh. Compliance? No. Compliance. Yes. Like, ugh. Like. That sounds icky. Word for a dog. Like. I don't want my dog compliant. Yeah. I want my client to feel like they did it themselves. Like, that's, I want them to feel, and often they do, and sometimes I have to struggle, I have dangerous ego, and so like, sometimes that I have to struggle with, like, but I'm the one who got you to that point. No, I'm really not, because I have so little to do with how the shit turns out. I can do, it's a tiny little bit that I have influence over. And so I, I think it was a guide to remember, like I said, kind of at the beginning is like, I I'm barely, I'm just the doorman just like open the door and like, you want, you can, you could try it. Like you can step through if you want to, uh, but like remembering that the instant you think you have it figured out. Is the instant you, you fall off of the rock. Uh, and, and that's It's about, like, just being really aware of your ego and, you know, remembering, like, like, why are you doing this? Like, what is, what is your why? Why are you here? What is, what are you actually doing in this interaction? And I remember when I worked, uh, in a, in the DV shelter here in Portland, I had this, this client, this kid that I, you know, it's like 10 years ago, but I think about him every day and I, I miss this kid and I really hope that he's okay. Uh, he's probably not, but I hope that he is, but, um, He had ADHD. Uh, and now that I, like, think about his behaviors, I watch that, but I connected with him a lot, and he, um, there was this meeting that I tried to have with him and his mom, and his mom had a lot of struggles too, and, uh, he was all over the place, just very, like, fractious behavior, and, um, I couldn't get him to, I couldn't connect with him, and I, I was trying, I was, like, trying to push it, and, um, just in this one specific interaction, Um, And I remember my boss, was checking in with me after, and she was like, this is the one who sent me all these trainings, and she was like, was like, you know, how did it go? And I said, I don't know, like, you just couldn't, like, you wouldn't listen to me, you wouldn't look at me, he was just, like, all over the room doing all these little things, and, and I kept, and I, like, named some of the things that I did, like, that's what it says to do in the books, right? And she was like, Well, what, you know, what was your goal in the interaction? Why were you, why did he need to look at you? And I was like, Oh, I'd say I didn't have, I was like, I, I don't know, I guess I just like, was like, I have to like, follow the instructions and it's like myopic way. And like, this is the way you do it. I supposed to be XYZ, but like, No, because I'd very much then just make it about ourselves. and a lot of the time, especially as a white person, we are really, really good at like gaslighting ourselves and we are really good at convincing ourselves that we're the good guy in the interaction and that we have good intentions. when often it's like the deeper we go down that path, the more we're very much centering ourselves and like wrapping ourselves up in it. Yes. So, that's a really long roundabout answer to basically like, pull your jets, and, uh, one of, one of the things I learned in wilderness medicine, which is very much about like, is this an emergency? Do we need to try and get this person out of the wilderness quickly? Or do they need a bandaid? basically. And so, one of the phrases that came up a lot was, um, It was like two. One is, like, take the time to stop and smoke a cigarette, which means like, just like, there's no reign it in. and like, step back and think. Your first initial reaction, your impulse, it's probably wrong, because it's a conditioned response. think through what you're gonna do and what might need to happen when you're feeling like things aren't going your way. And, uh, The other one is, I mean, go slow to go fast is always really important, of course. it seems like, remember that we're dealing with people in their very intimate relationships. And, that means that if you are not actively If you're working on your own mindset and your ability to care for yourself and to have compassion for other people and learning how to repair relationships, then you're not going to be a very effective dog trainer, which is very silly. It feels weird to say, but it's very real because one of the other things between like the commonalities between raising kids and like working with kids and working with dogs is that we are So Talking about a very intimate and personal relationship that people that have impacts like every moment of these people's lives. Right. You're, we're only seeing a fraction of it. A tiny bit. So. Oh my gosh. Lorenzo, thank you so. So much for coming on. I'm just, I'm so energized from this and I just, I know our listeners are going to, their heads are going to explode with everything you shared. Just it's so awesome. And I'm so grateful that you took the time to come on to talk with me about this and just taking the time out of your day. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate you opening up these conversations and also letting me go on for so long. Um, I, yeah, I do things I think about all the time. So I like any opportunity to share and to, like, hear what other people, think. And I think that these are things we are all thinking about. I hope, I think. But we just need to be, like, open about it. So, um, yeah, thank you for providing that space. Really quick, where can people follow you and find you on social media? let's see, uh. I know you have a few. Yeah, I've got, um, Summer and Yoshi and Rufio. Because I couldn't think of a more clever name. Here's my dog Instagram. I'm also at LorenzoJWX. disclaimer, that is not dog related. Uh, it is very much more. but based in like politics and social justice and my personal life. And then also I'm, yeah, I'm on like Facebook and I'm on TikTok as LorenzoJWX as well.. I will plug all those links so people can follow you and support you and yeah, thank you so much. And if you like what we're doing here on the Leashed Mind podcast and you want to help others find us, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel, follow us on social media, give us a rating wherever you got your podcasts, whether that's leaving a review on Apple or giving us a star rating on Spotify, or just leaving a little R plus on our Facebook page. It's all appreciated. Thank you. And we will be back with another episode. Um,