Freelance Writing Business Tips That Actually Work with Mandy Ellis

Are you tired of feast-and-famine freelance cycles and clients who treat you like an order taker?

In this episode of The Talk Freelance To Me® Podcast, host Ashley Cisneros Mejia sits down with powerhouse freelance coach and writer Mandy Ellis for a truth-packed conversation about what it really takes to grow a sustainable freelance writing business. 

We didn’t sugarcoat anything.

We covered what most creative freelancers wrestle with behind the scenes: boundary-setting, bad-fit clients, burnout, pricing confusion, feast-or-famine cycles, the pressure to be “always on,” and the shame that creeps in when you’re secretly ready to burn it all down and start fresh. Mandy gets it. And she brings real strategies and mindset shifts that can help you find your footing again.

THIS is the episode to help you reset and move forward with clarity. Don’t miss it. 

ABOUT MANDY ELLIS

Mandy Ellis is an award-winning, six-figure freelance writer and coach who, over the last 12 years, has called Fortune 500 companies, scrappy start-ups, and national newsstand magazines her clients. She's helped thousands of writers quickly build high-earning businesses they adore over the last decade. Connect with Mandy on YouTube, LinkedIn, and Instagram. 

Visit her website to learn about her free, live masterclass for freelancers on Sept. 16th, 17th, and 23rd: https://www.mandyellis.com/masterclass

Full show notes here.

Chapters

• 1:17 Meet Mandy Ellis + Her Freelance Origin Story
• 5:37 The myth of “no work” on LinkedIn vs. the silent 6-figure writers
• 8:17 Why your data spreadsheet is your best business coach
• 9:17 Red light vs. green light clients: different languages, different planets
• 19:54 The "cake and icing" niche strategy explained
• 29:24 The long game of authentic networking and pitching
• 45:41 Being respected vs. being bossed around: how to tell the difference
• 49:32 Mandy’s marketing spreadsheets and color-coded tracking system
• 59:00 Details on Mandy’s Masterclass + Freelance Writer Wealth Lab

Transcript

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 0:00

Hi there, it's Ashley. Quick note. The following episode has adult language. Please be advised for any little ears that might be around. Now, let's get into the episode.

, Mandy Ellis: 0:12

if writers could stop worrying so much about the self-doubt and the imposter syndrome and am I good enough or, mm. If you could stop worrying about that, you would see like how much you're needed.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 0:23

Welcome to Talk Freelance to me, the podcast for women freelance writers, 10 99 independent contractors and solopreneurs. I'm your host, Ashley Ci SDOs Mejia. For more than 20 years, I've worked as a journalist and freelance writer. Today as a mom of three kids, I'm passionate about helping other women leverage the freedom that freelance offers on top freelance. To me, we're all about the business of freelancing. If you want to learn how to monetize your talents, make money on your own terms, and design a flexible work life that actually works for you. This show is for you.. If you've been feeling discouraged about Maybe it's all the AI noise or the constant flood of this industry is dead. Takes well, today's episode is going to feel like a deep breath. I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Mandy Ellis, an award-winning six figure freelance writer and coach who's worked with Fortune 500 companies, national magazines, and scrappy startups for almost 15 years. She's the creator of Freelance Writer Wealth Lab and the Breakthrough Community, and she's helped. Thousands of writers build high earning businesses that they actually enjoy. I loved the opportunity to talk shop with someone else who's been in freelance for a while, and I really appreciate that. Mandy isn't just handing out advice. She's a working writer. She rolls up her sleeves and she. Can still do the work. So she brings deep clarity, strategy, and a real take to the conversation that we're having now. If you need some fresh ideas about how to find great clients, how to stay steady in your business and grow without burning out, this episode is for you. Let's get into it. I am super excited to introduce you to someone that I really admire. I love her content, her messaging, the wonderful Mandy Ellis. Mandy, welcome to the show.

Mandy Ellis: 2:32

I am so excited to be here and I can't wait to talk more about freelance writing.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 2:37

Oh my goodness. I, like I said before, I was watching your YouTube videos about just some of your insights, really from everything that you've learned from your decades working in freelance, from working with community, other writers all around the world. You've done digital products and have events and groups and things. It's so awesome, inspiring to see everything that you've achieved in your freelance career. But take us back a little bit. How did you get started in this crazy world of freelance?

Mandy Ellis: 3:04

So my story, I think is like other people's where I had, it took me, so I'm a millennial and it took me 10 months to get my first full-time job. I submitted hundreds and hundreds of applications. This was during the great recession, and I got my first job and a year later they were like, Hey, we are gonna lay you off. And I was like, oh shit. So I was like, I just got this thing. Yeah. And so they were like, by the end of the, we're gonna cut your hours and by the end of the month you're gonna be laid off. And I was like, I always wanted to be a freelance writer. I had a fiction, a creative writing fiction degree, and that's what I wanted to do. So I was like, oh, I'll just get on the platforms. And so that turned out that was, that's a different story we can talk about later, but I got on the platforms and. I, it turned out by the end of the month, they were like, Hey, just kidding, we're gonna keep you on. And I was like, thanks for the false alarm, but I'm gonna solve this. So I had the basically hot poker in the butt to like, Hey, you need to get started on this. And then basically, I think it was 15 to 18 months later, I left for full-time. So that was like June, 2024. So, or 20 24, 20 14. And like a lot of writers where you're like, Hey, I wanna do this writing thing. And then some kind of event kicks it off, you're gonna lose your job. The publication dies, or something happens and you're like, oh, I'll just get on the platforms. And then I had my identity stolen and I was working for, I worked $25 for 1500 words. And I had someone who was like, Hey, you charge $30 an hour, would you work at $15 an hour? And I was like, sure. And it was, it was a whole thing. But now that I've eaten all the fruit from the dumb dumb tree, I actually built a business I really love.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 4:39

I love it, man. What a story. What a, and I feel like so much resonates, like with me, with your story.'cause we've been through it. Us millennials, us, I don't know if I'm a Zenni or what, like I, but we have been through it. And I think to some effect, maybe it gives us a little bit of resilience. Like with everything that we're seeing now is, we've seen this show before. Yeah. We've seen, and so I think it, it, I know that those, those challenges came early in our careers, but I think we're, we're better for it. And thinking about that a little bit, we were talking before we got started, just about a lot of the sentiment that out there right now about freelance, about the nature of the industry, about where it's going in the future. You work with a lot of freelancers as a freelance coach, especially with freelancers who are doing well, I think six figure freelancers, which is so cool. What do you see that freelancers get wrong about the industry and when they're trying to find those good clients?

Mandy Ellis: 5:37

Yeah, so just what we were talking about earlier is when you get on LinkedIn mm-hmm. And you see a bunch of people panicking about not having work. There's a couple things at play here. So we've seen this story before. This happens all the time, and there's two paths. One is, oh my God, there's no working clients for anybody and everything's burning down. The other one is, oh my gosh, everyone has working clients and I don't, now, what am I doing wrong? Everything's terrible. That's the two paths we often take when we get on LinkedIn and everyone's panicking. But what I want you to decompress here is that the successful freelance writers don't have time most of the time to be on LinkedIn. You will see successful freelance writers on LinkedIn, but most of the people making six figures or whatever, they're not posting on LinkedIn like they're doing the work. They have deadlines, they have clients, they are prioritizing the needle moving activities. So that's the first thing is really pay attention to remember that there is a very large silent freelance writing community making big bucks from great clients who are not on LinkedIn. Pro, like talking a lot or taking up space. So that's the first thing. I always try to remember that.'cause when I would panic about my business and then I'd realize like, why are all these, like all these people make money? Like I would go look at other freelancers and I would talk to them and I'd be like, how are they making money? And I'm like, oh, like my perception is off. Like my perception from looking at the panic is off.'cause all these people are like, I'm working. Like I don't have time for that social media stuff right now. Yeah. So that's the first thing. Second thing is I often end up talking to writers and students who are doing spray and pray. So they're like, just send the lois the letters of introduction to introduction to business clients or pitches to magazines. And they're not actually thinking about who is this for? Should I narrow down these clients? Should I think about some data and information that can help me? Really, I call it the pre-filtering process, but really filter down. Who I'm sending these Lois and pitches to, so then I can get better results.'cause I already know I'm reaching this better tier rather than just spraying and being like, oh my God. Send everything out and hope it works. And the other things, I have a couple things in here that I wrote down just to make sure that we talk about them. So I think a lot of times too is the feast and famine comes from not feeding the marketing beast. Mm-hmm.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 7:46

So

Mandy Ellis: 7:46

I call it feeding the marketing tamagotchi. That thing needs to be fed all the time. You gotta take care of it. I think that that was a big mistake I made for. At least half of my career was not doing feed, sending the lois 50 to 75 Lois to these selected, you know, how to look at these clients and pick the right ones every month and really doing that, filling that pipeline consistency. And then if you don't, you ride this big feast and famine rollercoaster and it ends up being this big drama lama cycle that you don't really have to go through. So instead of looking at who are my best clients. What is the data? What's their revenue ranges? What niches are they in? What projects are they working on? What topics are we typically writing about? What titles am I typically reaching out to? What's my LOI or pitch response rate? Like they miss all the data and then they ride feast and famine.'cause they're too, they're like, I need work right now. Oh my God. Instead of looking at like the things in their business, their business will tell them the answer I this. There is data there. I think that's something that, uh, oftentimes get gets missed is this gold nugget data that's like literally in front of you. It is literally in front of you. If you just dig into your, yes, it's a little 95 to have the spreadsheet or a 98, but I think this spreadsheet, it just gives you a very clear look of here's my best clients. Why are they answering, why are we doing this? What did they say on the call? What can I. Gather from this data to then inform my process. So I'm not like out there spraying and praying or, or just hoping something works out. Like I have this very curated plan for my specific business. Uh, the next thing is, I know you were gonna ask me about red light clients, and this is, is the big difference between, I call 'em red lights, but red flag and green flag clients is they totally speak different languages. They can't have a conversation with each other. Yeah. So if you are a red light client gets on the a call with a green light client, they can't talk to each other. They, the green light clients speak a totally different language. And this is something where like you have to speak that language in your LinkedIn and your website and writers are like so afraid of being like, I have to be professional. I have to put, I'm so insecure. I have so much self doubt. Please just take me seriously as a writer instead of being like, how do I talk the same talk as my ideal clients? Like how do I. Speak their same language and attract them through my website in LinkedIn. And this is, I call this the tuning fork technique, but you're, you're on the same level as them and red light clients, like they can't, they reject each other. So if you write for green light clients and you understand how to actually do that, you reject those red light clients. And that's something where writers will be like, I don't understand why I'm attracting all these tire kickers and I'm doing this. It's like you're speaking the wrong language. So there's a lot of these interconnected problems and a lot of them have to do with marketing or understanding your clients, where writers just miss some things that are in front of them. Like that data would tell you a lot. Your client calls will tell you a lot about what to put. What are your best clients saying to put in your copy and how do you actually get out a FE of Pam and you have to feed the beast, right? Feed the marketing tamagotchi. So yeah, I think there's a bunch of things, especially when there's a lot of panic that people forget about. It's like sometimes that answer is like right in front of you in the data in your business.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 10:48

Hmm. Gold. Drop the mic. So good. Mandy. So good. I'm glad I took notes. Yes, yes. We need all of that highlighted. Everybody needs to get, get the show notes, get the transcript, and paste that. Paste that on your laptop. Get a piece of tape and put it on your monitor. I think some of the things that I really enjoyed, really appreciate about what you're bringing out is just that intention that's required. Mm-hmm. It's, the difference is, I think us being in charge of our business, of treating what we're doing as a business and not being passive, not accepting, just. Anything, any person you know, with a pulse and a dollar. That's the recipe for, for burnout, for unhappiness, that we actually have to look, be business owners, look at our data, think about how we're messaging about ourselves, about our services, or about the transformation that we can offer clients and taking control of that and spray and pay and play. That's the opposite, right? It's just, it's being in a position of desperation and, and that insecurity where we're just hoping someone will ask us to dance. And this is so different. Yes, because this, what you're talking about is identifying. Who do I wanna dance with and, and I'm gonna go after that person or that, that client. Yeah. That is super, super empowering. I think too, if, if we can give ourselves the permission to do that, or the reminder to do that, to assume that role because no one else is gonna do it. We we're freelancers. It's just us usually. So I really appreciate that. That's awesome. I,

Mandy Ellis: 12:18

I love that you said transformation. Like if, if we could convince. More writers to understand their unique skills that provide the transformation for their clients. Magic will happen if we could. That's one of my things is I don't want everybody to be a mini version of someone else. Yes, I want you to be more like yourself. And the more you are yourself, the more you can take those unique skills and that provides a very clear transformation for your clients. It, it all comes together. It all makes sense together. If you just look at it. From the point of view as like it's not desperation, perspiration, it's a transformation I'm providing for my clients, and I'm actually giving them like a, I have this stat that I looked up the other day that was the average content marketing project makes a million in revenue. Wow. To what percentage of that million are you getting? It's not gonna be 1%. So like you need to understand that transformational value, like just the average, that's not even the good ones. The average content marketing project makes a million in revenue. So if you can just remember that and be like, what unique skills am I bringing to this project? Or maybe this niche, or what is my knowledge, experience, expertise, skills, help my clients get the transformation they want. That's, that's the key, that transformation is the key.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 13:30

Wow, that's powerful. And that transformation that does level the playing field, I think, or it levels kind of these dynamics of power with the client is that we're coming to them having done our homework and well aware of the value that we bring, the value that we can share with them, and making their job easier, helping them achieve whatever their objectives or goals are. And that, that's way different than some of the other, I feel like themes that I've seen or like the, the, the vibe and, and some of these spaces like on LinkedIn and others where it's just very much of. Everybody's freaking out and looking at each other and maybe being feeling sad, you know that they're not.'cause there's, there's other people. For everyone that's saying the sky is falling. There's other people who are saying, I don't know what you guys are talking about. I'm making, I made more money than ever. Yes. And then a lot of times I am sure writers that you work with too, because I've, I've heard of some in, in my network are just, they feel bad. What's wrong with me? What am I, I don't understand, but we're looking at the wrong. We're looking in the wrong place. We're looking right at our peers. Instead of what you are saying, which is looking in our own business and taking note of the clues, what is our business telling us? Yes. So good, Mandy.

Mandy Ellis: 14:40

Yeah, but also it's like there's a guilt too. This is a weird thing that happens with writers. If they make six figures, like my most successful writers are not posting, Hey, I'm having the best year ever. Mm-hmm. I hit six figures. I left my full-time job in nine months. I did this thing. I replaced my full-time income. Like they're not talking about that. Yeah. There's a guilt of, hey, if I'm doing well, is that taking away from somebody else and mm-hmm. I think that goes back to like really working on that abundance mindset. Yes. And I, I think about that is. The way I think about it is it's like sunlight. You and I, Ashley can't go outside and get more than everybody else. It just is available, right? Yeah. That was the best example I've ever heard of. It is it's just sunlight. So it's not that we have to feel guilty for excelling when other people are struggling. And I know that maybe this is true in your business, like my best years were during like some of the quote like worst times. Yeah. And some of my worst years were during the best times. Right. And I had people who had, I had freelance friends who were booked so solid during COVID that they were farming out tons of work. My work got shut off for like months. I forget. It was like three months, maybe four. But then it picked right back up and it was, I was super busy. It, it's this weird kind of thing where like it's really not about the outside stuff. It's remembering there is working clients. I don't need a lot. I need two to five. Three to five clients. I don't need tens of thousands. And there's a lot of, we don't have to have guilt about doing well just'cause other people are struggling. There's this, we, we actually, if you can help the people who are struggling, definitely try to do that. Re recommend work referrals, give them advice, whatever. But I also think that we should have this, remember there's, there's this little ecosystem that happens where some people do well, some people aren't doing well, but it is a ride. You have to ride the ride sometimes. Like we've been here before, right? We've been through this kind of cycle of up and down and panic with freelance writing before people have done well, people have not done well. It's, it's about what you and I talked about is like solving that ever-changing puzzle. That's part of the, that's part of the ride.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 16:42

Absolutely. I love that you said ride. I live here in Florida and sometimes I tell my husband that I'm riding the wave because when the right wave comes and I just, I can't, can't talk right now. Gotta ride the wave, gotta surf because you don't know when the next one. Is going to come. And, and I know that sounds maybe like scarcity mindset, but just understanding that there's ebbs and flows that your ebbs and flows are, might be different than someone else's. That there really are no rules to any of this. They certainly freelance. I've never found it to stay nice and neat in these guardrails. It just doesn't. So

Mandy Ellis: 17:14

not for Yeah, not for me either. Like I've, the, the ebb and flow thing is, is a natural part of business. Mm-hmm. It is. Just as you evolve as a writer, you're gonna target different projects. You're gonna try different things. It would be really uncommon for someone to write only blog posts for 20 years that just right it, or, or only this for people change their business. And that's part of the ebb and flow too, is if you change your business, now you gotta figure out, okay, what's the next part of this? What's the next piece of the puzzle? And I, I feel like the ebb and flow is a natural part of be being an evolving writer. It's not wrong. It's just a natural piece of the puzzle.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 17:51

So cool, so cool. I know you talked a moment ago about some of your best years were years that other people weren't doing so well and vice versa. And I've also heard you talk about niches and how there's really no rules when it comes to that either. I know that you've done a lot with tech, like property tech, hospitality, tech, I think I heard, and then also SaaS. How did you decide that those were niches that you wanted to work in and how can newer freelancers who are listening to this figure out where to plant their flag? Where should they get started?

Mandy Ellis: 18:25

So I started with straight food and travel. That's what I knew. That's like what I did. And so I started there and I just, it, I guess it evolved organically. So for me, I had an editor who was like, Hey. Do you wanna write about real estate? And I was like, sounds good. So I started writing about real estate. I fell in love with it. And then that led to me starting to see this thing called prop tech. And I was like, what's that? And it was emerging. And so that I was like, Hmm, I should start targeting clients here. And so that kind of grew naturally. And Hospitality Tech came from, I was writing for, working with restaurants, doesn't quite, they don't have a ton of money, but they're definitely using these tech products, these SaaS and hospitality tech products. So I realized the content that I would write for this magazine is the exact same thing that I can write for this client and get paid a lot more money to do it. It's the exact same stuff I would get published in a magazine and get paid double or more to do it. And so I started making kind of these connections between my magazine work and these kind of natural movements of like prop tech growing. And then I was, when I first, early in my career. I burned out really well, not early, I guess it was 2018. I burned out really bad, so I worked every single day. From April to September, I had two days off and I took one week off and then I slept 13 hours a night for three weeks and took three months off.'cause it was awful. It was awful. And I was working 10 to 15 hour days from April to September. And in that thing I realized, oh, this is not working. So that led me to what I teach my students, which is cake and icing. It's a cake and icing niches strategy. So I think about it as like there are cake niches and these cake niches, they have hundreds of thousands if not millions of clients. There are a ton of them there. There a lot of them are things that people don't even think about. Like Vener, veterinary SaaS or Vet Tech, or, there's the big ones, right? Like IOT. But travel and food, those can be cake niches. But these cake niches, they typically have somewhere. I like raise the number a little bit. It's 20 million to 80 million ish in revenue or funding, you're typically looking at series B or series C. And beyond startups, you're looking for kind of mid-size companies. These are places that typically continue on, they're typically businesses that are on the edge of growth. And then you have icing companies. They make somewhere around 10 to 20 million, maybe a little bit less, or they might be something where you can do good work, but there's just not a lot of volume. So it could be like gardening or it could be like adventure travel, or it could be something like sustainable farming. And what you do here is you find this natural balance, like you're picking niches between, 'cause I knew when I was working with magazines and working in certain niches, I was like, this is not sustainable. Like this is not gonna work. Right. So I, I started realizing the revenue ranges connected to like how many companies there are to make a. To send Lois and you balance this cake and icing so that you're like, okay, I still, I, all these things I'm interested in, but I now have this good balance of like things that make money, things that feed my writer soul. Yes, things that are creative, things that are interesting to me, but maybe not as interesting as writing about gardening, but I still love it and I still make more money. So for me, burning out led me to that kind of balance in the niches. So for me, I feel like niches aren't forever, they're just something as a starting point to give you direction. Because when you're starting as a freelance writer, you're like, what am I doing? So I always ask the question, like, if you're a generalist, like who are you targeting? If you're a generalist, you don't have any niches. Where are you going? And it's really hard to answer that question. But if you pick a few niches and you just get started and you learn the process of what does this client look like? What's their revenue like? Who am I reaching out to? What's the title? What niche are they in? Like you get that data, then you can start evolving that process or other niches.'cause you know the process now. So if you start with an industry or a niche, then you have at least a process that you can repeat for other things to say, oh, I noticed my highest response rate and my best clients are in SaaS, but I'm also getting, let's say. Five grand a year writing about gardening for these places. So that's a good balance of, let's say I make 60 grand writing for SaaS prop tech and hospitality tech, and I make five grand from this icing thing. I get to combine all my different likes and interests. And the other thing too is, is I think a lot of people think the tech stuff is like very different. It's not, you're writing for like usually regular people unless you're doing like DevOps or something really complicated. But usually you're writing for regular people about how to use this thing, right? Mm-hmm. Hospitality tech is like, how do we tell a restaurant owner or someone who works at the front desk of a hotel how to use a point of sale system like Square? Like how do we, it's a regular person or how do we like explain to someone like a location and what they might be able to do at a smart hotel, which would be an article you could write for any magazine. So I think the idea here is it's not so much techie, but there are certain data points and you usually can write very similar content that you would for a magazine for these companies.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 23:24

That's so cool. I love this concept of cake and ice being, it sounds delicious. It's delicious. And way more sustainable, way more sustainable when you get to do the things that you mentioned, content that feeds your writer's soul. And I think that that is, so that's, that's missing sometimes I feel like in these conversations that we see on LinkedIn or in other virtual water coolers is it's all about money and money and money and, and we need that. We cannot ignore that. We need to look at our revenue and our profit and things like that. Yeah. But that's, I feel like if I, any writer that I talk to, the vast majority, I feel like studied literature or English or journalism like me or whatever. We all have that love of storytelling of communication. Yes. It's not all. For us, for a lot of us, I feel like about, uh, just about the money. We we're in this for a specific reason because that's what we like to do. We're curious people. We like to communicate. We'd like to make the connections, synthesize information, translate it in different ways for whoever we're trying to reach. And I don't, I don't hear a lot of people talking about that, about that icing. Yeah. So I really love that Mandy.

Mandy Ellis: 24:36

It's also the storytelling. Yeah. Like we could talk about ai, like I have seen so much more of a focus on storytelling now with all this AI content coming out, coming out. It's that's what we're doing. That's what we're good at. Go tell the stories, right? Yes. It's, that's the important pieces. Like it's not a tech company. Tell the story, tell the story. Like mm-hmm. I think those kind of evergreen blog posts or those kind of like more generic kind of copy or the things that AI puts out is, it's not, it doesn't connect with people through the story. They can't tell the story. They can't put together, Hey, I ate all the fruit from the Dum tree and I burned out and I made all these mistakes. They can't do that. Yeah. And I, I feel like there has been a bigger push into storytelling over the last, maybe even year or two with all the AI content. So that's, that's what we wanna do. Tell more stories. Go do that. Find the people telling the stories and go work with them.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 25:31

Absolutely, absolutely. Nobody ever says when they're a kid, Hey mommy, read me a white paper. It's always, mommy read me a story. Daddy read me a story. It's never, daddy read me a brochure. So we need to just understand that that's where we shine and to to be better at that, to revisit those things. I think that's how we differentiate ourselves. That's really cool. Really cool. I was looking at your website and noting like you've worked with some really cool brands like Costco. I'm a big Costco fan, Conde Nas, traveler, Forbes. These are like household names that you've contributed to along the way. How did you get connections with some of these big brands? How did you also build that credibility with them where they kept coming back to you and giving you more stories?

Mandy Ellis: 26:19

Yeah, so this is something where I think it's, part of it is persistence. So Costco was really early in my journey and that was like the easiest, most fun thing I've done. It was a dollar a word and it was for their Costco Connection magazine. I think they still pay a dollar. Yeah. If not more. And that was like reaching out. I sent them an LOI pitch hybrid, which is basically like part of your LOI plus a few headlines, Hey, does this work for you? And they were like, here's our little magical guide on what we're looking for. And I was like, okay, they still send that out. So that was like straight pitch. The magazine, Costco and Costco connection is fun to do. I think Costco does do other things like white papers and business things. So, but I really liked the magazine. So that was, that was like literally pitching. The other one was, so Conde Nast Traveler was, I've read that for. My, I don't know, not my whole life, but pretty much like I love the magazine and I had a writer here in Austin and I was like, I love your work. I had been following her work for like several years and I was like, you're in Austin, can we meet up? And she was like, sure. And I had written for afar and a few other places by then, and we talked about it and she was like, we just got along. We had similar experiences and she ended up recommending me for something. So I got recommended from making that connection, but I also pitched them stuff. So from getting that recommendation. Then I was learning more about the pitching process with them and getting more ideas. So then I was like, great, now I have this regular kind of like update, it's like the Austin Guide stuff. And then just sending them pitches, like they know me, I've got this kind of relationship with them. And I had already written for afar, which I had pitched a ton of times to get articles in there. So I had that idea of what, what's a good pitch for these higher end magazines? How should I kind of like organize this? And, and then Forbes was an editor, so I had an editor that I worked with. I really liked working with her. She ended up moving to Forbes and she was like, Hey, do you wanna write this stuff? And I was like, sure. And so for me it's like a big Mitch mix between, I had already been pitching, I had already been sending stuff out, I had stuff in other magazines. And then I made some connections with people just doing good work. Like a lot of it comes down to that writer had read my work so she could recommend me to CNT 'cause she'd read my work. Work. Right? Yeah. And then that editor knew me. She knew I did good work, so then she could recommend me for something else. And then. Really working on those pitching skills is important when you're working with magazines.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 28:37

Love it. So you actually did the work. Yeah. Yeah. You actually put some sweat into it. Yeah, I put a lot of

Mandy Ellis: 28:42

tears into it too. Yeah. Like I remember I pitched afar for forever. I pitched afar, so many ideas, so many follow-ups, and I finally figured it out. It took me, I don't remember how long it was. It was a long time, and I have, I don't know how many articles are in there. It's not like a ton, maybe it's four or five or three or something. But that's something where it's, that was a big process of me, like crying about it and being, we're gonna get it. Yeah. And it was just really working on the pitching skills. Pitching is a muscle.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 29:10

Mm.

Mandy Ellis: 29:10

I was not good at it. I was not good at, at coming up with ideas. I was very much the writer who was like, what about this idea? And they're like, that's a book. And I'm like, oh. So it's like too wide. And I think just practicing those skills and really, I, I have always reached out to writers where I'm like, I admire your work. There's a, a writer who is the Texas monthly restaurant reviewer, pat Sharp for 900 years. And I was like, I love your work. I reached out to her on LinkedIn. I was like, this is, I love your stuff. And I would read it every time her stuff came out, I would read it. I think that's like. A good practice as a writer is, I'm not expecting Pat Sharp to do anything. I wasn't expecting this other writer to do anything. Yeah. But I loved her work and I was like, I just wanna meet you and talk about your work and learn what, what you've done and, 'cause it's really cool. And I think that interest then ends up maybe leading to stuff in the future, like this did for, for Conde Nast. But I think it's also, you learn a lot of really tried and tested tips just from reaching out to people and being like, I love your work. Do you, do you have any recommendations? Or, I love this article. Like, how did you work on your word choice or descriptions or whatever.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 30:17

That's so cool. That's so cool. I, I wanna call out something, is that you took interest in people in a genuine way when you talked about the writer who recommended you, you said something like that you knew each other for seven years and the other, the editor who went to Forbes, who got the position at Forbes, you had worked with her, you had delivered good stuff to her. Clear. You had a relationship before and she knew that you would get stuff, good stuff and done on time, make her job easier. And so she pulled you into the next place where she was Forbes. And I feel like that's something, I feel like there's a lot of people who want a magic pill, a quick fix, and it's just, it's not, maybe you get lucky, but I think for a lot of us, me included. We had to put in the work, we had to, to use that muscle, we had to build those relationships and connect with people in an authentic way. Mm-hmm. And I think one of the most beautiful things, you know how psychologists say that the most beautiful sound to people is the sound of their own name. I think next to that, I think for a writer, it's, I've read your article, I've read your stuff, I read your, I listened to your podcast, I watched your video, that when you're a creator like we are, and how much goes into putting out something and how much vulner vulnerability it takes to create something, to put it out in the world and wins and see how people are gonna receive it. When you connect with someone in a way where you show that. Genuine, authentic interest in their craft and what they create. That's how you do it. I feel like everybody needs to know that. Also on LinkedIn. I don't know if you, I'm sure you get pitches from people trying to sell you things on LinkedIn. Yes.

Mandy Ellis: 31:56

I'm

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 31:57

just like, is the Who told you?

Mandy Ellis: 31:59

Yeah. I'm like, how did you even find, yeah,

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 32:02

I know. That's just, it's, that's not the way that you started a relationship with someone. I love these, these things that you've shared.

Mandy Ellis: 32:10

I think it's, it's two, it's that writer I had followed her work for, for several years. I think it was two or three years. I didn't know her until I met her there, but we had, we, it wasn't like an automatic thing where like she was like, I'm gonna recommend you. It was like we had built a relationship. We were talking to each other like she had read my work. That was a long, I feel like the relationship thing is, is the long game. Yeah. It's like I'm not expecting anything. I just think your stuff is cool and I wanna talk to you and this is interesting, like I think. Feeding like your inner writing geek too, of, oh my God, this is cool. Tell me about it. I think that really helps your business. Even if it's like in the, in the beginning you're like really interested in this thing. It does end up snowballing and I feel like this is like one of those things, especially when we're talking about LinkedIn. I am very much, especially when you're building relationships, it should be from that genuine, what you did is cool or I wanna, I saw this thing in what about this? Rather than just like an email to someone. Give me some advice like about what you know, or, I know a lot of people, this is like my kind of. Pa off pathway, but my, I know a lot of people are like, oh, just get on LinkedIn and build the relationship with someone for two weeks and then then ask about work and me. That's, if you want work, just ask for the work. Go in for the ask. Mm-hmm. Start from a genuine, transparent place and just be like, hi, do you need help? I would love to help you. Just, just tell them, rather than secretly going around and being like, okay, I'm gonna build this genuine relationship and then I'm gonna ask for the work. It's not, there's always, I, I feel like there's like an underlying current, like it can't be genuine if your current is like, when do I ask for the work?

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 33:45

Yes. Just

Mandy Ellis: 33:45

start from the beginning. I want some work. You're reaching out to a client. Just be like, hi, I wanna work with you. Do you need help? Just be, be straightforward and transparent. That's a lot easier. To then build a relationship and with other writers, I feel like read their work. Yeah, that's, we start as readers like, just like you said is you don't read me a white paper, you read me a story, but we start as readers. Yeah. So read people's work, find stuff that's interesting. Ask them questions, rather than just reach out to randos and be like, hi, tell me some stuff. And I feel like that gets missed. When people get in that panic stage, they're panicked about this and they're missing the part of, remember what was interesting about writing? Go do that. Go ask other people questions. Go be curious. Go do the research, go read stuff, and then take the next step of build a relationship or just tell people you want work. Just, just be upfront about it. I want to work with you.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 34:37

Yes. Yes. Yeah. I feel like so many people want this formulaic. Programmatic plug and play solution, like you said. Okay. Two weeks to pretend to be their friend and then go for the kill. Yes. Yes. And I feel like that's, people can sense it. We're humans. I think everything, like I'm seeing like the through line with what you're sharing is just to be human again. Be a writer again and tell the story. Be a real person. Yeah. Who would've fun out?

Mandy Ellis: 35:01

Yeah. It's, it's weird when I feel like, I think when you get further in your career, like we have, you get these pitches like pretty much every day or, or at least every week, where you're just like, why? Why is this here? Right? What is this? This is hot garbage. But it's, it's like early in your career, you're surrounded by silence, but it doesn't mean you can't connect with people on a human or writer level. It doesn't mean you can't, like I always recommend to my students is use your personality. Go out there and talk to people. Ask people questions. Do ask the things that you're interested in. Read their work. Find examples you like, and, and see where those have come from. What clients, what companies like, what are they doing? And I feel like there's, like I, I think. We lose a lot of that personality when we're like, oh, there's just like a magic formula. Like I will use this template and do this thing and then, and it's very rigid. But freelance writing, like we've talked about is a, is a puzzle. Yes. You, there are templates, there are examples. There are things that we can do. There's definitely stuff that we can use as building blocks that people have tested for sure. But you have to be yourself. You still have to put your personality in there. You still have to figure out your clients. You still have to be a real person with people. You're not gonna get on a call and be like, okay, let me just read my script. I mean, okay, cool. No one would do that. That'd be nuts.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 36:18

I love it. I love it. You were talking earlier about these red light clients versus these green light clients, and I think there's so much gold and wisdom there because I feel like you've seen it. You've seen. You gotta kiss the frogs and you get the good clients too. Yep. So can you talk a little bit more about that, about what separates, like one of these diamond clients versus these other ones that are just not aligned, that don't pay well, that sap your energy and just aren't good for your business?

Mandy Ellis: 36:49

Yeah, so the first thing is what we talked about earlier, which is like they're on different planets. They live different lives, they speak different languages. They can't have a conversation with each other. So that should tell you a lot where if you are getting a lot of red light clients, you're having the wrong conversation. Like whatever you're saying on your LinkedIn website, client calls, we're on the wrong thing. So the other thing is you actually have to, I always talk about digging for diamond clients. You're not gonna have diamond clients just show up. They, they, they are something where you need to feed the marketing toag, Tamagotchi. You need to track that data. The more you can know about your clients and the way you are writing that website and taking care of updating your LinkedIn copy and updating your website copy with more of the phrases that Greenlight clients like.'cause you tracked them in your sheet. This is one of my Greenlight clients. You know what they said? Put that in your copy. Then you'll start attracting these better clients and repelling the red light ones. I feel like too, this is like. The diamond clients end up sticking out. Like they are the ones where you get on a call and they can tell you, we're creating this type of content for this type of audience with this goal. We're tracking it with these metrics. We know how things work. We value you. We know that things are being adjusted, but we want a long-term relationship with someone. To work on this. Like they're in the, the trenches of the content. They're not getting on a call where they like can't explain something or they're like, someone told me to start a blog. And you're like, oh dear. Oh God, it's 2025. Oh God. And they're like very clear. They're clear about expectations. They're clear about a long-term partnership. They very much fit your personality and work style. They're like, Hey, typically we do this and this, and you're like, sounds good. So if they typically use Slack and email and you're like, I use that all the time, sounds good. There's this very specific set of things like they're able to explain the project, they're able to tell you a budget, or they're able to say, Hey, here's what we worked on before. Here's what we're thinking. They're able to talk about other projects in the pipeline. They're able to be very direct with you rather than beating around the bush. And I feel like a lot of times when I've been on calls with. Red light clients, it's like they're treating me like an employee or they're like, convince me to hire you. I'm, I'm talking to a hundred other writers, convince me to hire you. I'm like, no, Ew, no, because like green light clients are diamond. Like your diamond clients are like your best of best green light clients, right? So they're getting on there with the express purpose of finding the right writer for their brand. They're not trying to interview a ton of people and then be like, we have six different options. Like they're, they've done the research, they know what, they're right. They've, they looked at your clips, they found your website, or they responded to an LOI. They looked at stuff, they're like, Hey, this could be the right person. And Red light clients are very much, this is a job interview. Convince me to hire you. What, what would you say if I said this? And it's, I don't know, like, why are you asking me that? And let's see. Oh, the other thing is that, this is something that I noticed with Red Light clients is they often are like, I'm just gonna talk at you, and then you make some copy and like that with no getting triggered. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. They're like, I'm just gonna tell, talk at you. And then you figure it out and you're like, what are we even doing here? And there is often like this, like I'll know it when I see it. Type of mindset. And it's just, it is totally the opposite. I always had this, I had this in my own business, but also with my students, is you immediately see the divergence, like mm-hmm. Someone is, we have, we have $5,000, we wanna do two white papers. Does that work for you? And you can say yes or no. We wanna build this long-term relationship. We have a case study we wanna do per quarter. We have this other stuff going. Like they can clearly outline it, Hey, we're tracking these metrics. Success to us looks like 2000 more subscribers or success to us just looks like getting this content out regularly. There's very clear stuff. Red light clients are like. Just all over the place and whatever in that red light client call, whatever dysfunction or whatever's happening, that will continue into the relationship. There's no magic. Like they signed the contract, gave you some money. Now things change there. You will continual, continually be on this rollercoaster of them putting the onus on you. You're the writer, you figure it out. I'm, I, it only would take me one hour. It should take you 30 minutes. Or it's just, it's, it's very clear when you get on calls or you see how they work when you're like, oh, this client's like actually telling me the shit. Like they're telling me the things I need to know in order to price the project or the budget or does this work? We're playing, we're both in the NFL, we're not like one of us is in the peewees and one is one of us is in the NFL. We're in the same league. Like we get each other.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 41:22

Golden golden. I have, I think you must have been spying on all the clients that I used to work with when I first started because Yep. All of those, my goodness, getting someone who knows what they want and has it together and yeah, it's okay if they're, they have a couple questions and they lean on you for that, you know that input, but there is a stark difference with a client that knows what they want, that has a plan versus one that they, they don't know what they want. Or it's al always, I always would attract people that would come to me almost like too late. Yes, there was some kind of fundamental business issue happening in their company. Maybe it was operations may, maybe it was customer service, maybe it was the product, but itself, the service itself, and they'd wanna use whatever, maybe they called it inbound marketing back in like, mm-hmm. 2010 or something that it was, oh, I just need to do social media. It was, they just kept thinking of what is my. What is my, I don't wanna say rival, but what is my competitor doing? And let me just try to copy that and slap it on like a bandaid and fix things. And I'm just like, you are setting me up to fail. Oh yeah. You're absolutely setting me up to fail. And we can do all the blogs in the world and all the downloads and all the things, but if we don't pop under the hood and figure out what is going on with your company, all the marketing in the world is not gonna fix this because people can see that this is not what we're saying. It is. And I, I think my personality now that I've. Learned way too much from the dumb dumb tree is myself. Yep. Yep. I, I think I realized that's not every business problem is not ours to solve.'cause I think before I would be like, let me, let me help you, let me help you get clarity. Let's talk about this tomorrow. And now. I just realized now if you're not, like you said on the same league, mostly speaking the same language, then we just have to say thank you and maybe we can reunite later. We have a clearer picture of what might, what your goals are. Good. You don't wanna be

Mandy Ellis: 43:28

riding that like broken pony. That

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 43:30

pony

Mandy Ellis: 43:30

is not gonna work. That's the pony that's on the thing with the fair. That's just going in a circle where you're like, didn't we just do this? What's happening?

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 43:38

I don't know what, I don't know what kind of bait I was using because I have attracted lots of those broken ponies and I don't know if it's being too nice. I don't know if it's smiling too much, laughing too much. But yes, something in my brand was telling those people go to her, she can fix us, and there was just a lot of, a lot of burnout from that. So that is such good. Good information.

Mandy Ellis: 44:01

I did that too, though. I did that. Yeah. Like I, I, I would be so overly willing to help and I, I had to work on people pleasing, but then I got to the same place as you was like, good marketing. Can't say save a bad product. Yes. There's no amount of good marketing that can save a bad product. And if you can't talk to your audience, you have nothing. If you can't actually talk to them in their own language and tell the story and be part of the conversation with them, it's over. So no matter how much I wanna help you, or I wanna people please my way, or I'm sure you've had this too, like I've been paid some good money and I'm just like, the money's not worth it. This is crazy. Yes. I have to leave. Yeah. There, there is this thing when, when I was like starting out, I was like, oh, if they just give me some money, like I can fix it. Like I can solve the problem. But then you get to a point where someone gives you. Five grand or three grand a month on a three to six month retainer, you're like, sweet, I've got some money. Yeah. And then you get halfway through that retainer and you're like, oh no. Like this is, this is not worth the money. This is causing me so many, I have an ulcer and a headache all the time. I can't do this. So like there's, there's this thing that happens with red light clients where like you, I think that's what starts breaking that kind of barrier down to I can't do this. Like even if I wanted to, I can't work with these types of clients. And then you start being like, I need these other clients. So some of us, me and sounds like you. Yeah. We, we have to get to that point of, oh, like this bridge is not, this is not gonna work. Like we have to do it ourselves. And then we have to see it break in front of our eyes to move on to the green light clients and the diamond clients.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 45:37

So, so, so true. So good. You said something else when, when you were talking earlier about that they respect you or that they're taking you seriously or they appreciate you and that is something that I think we need to highlight. Double click on. Mm-hmm. Bold. Mm-hmm. Make bigger because I feel, and I don't know if it's a function of people's perception about freelance writers, other people's perception about, I watched one of your videos about the myths of freelancing, and you were talking about if you buy into these ideas that it's oversaturated and there's too many, oh, yeah. I think there's other people, our clients, or would be clients that. Maybe sometimes also believe that and they take us for granted or think that we're all in the peewee division and Yep. That we are just busy bees and note takers and little robots and they just give us an order and we take it, we bring them back the order. And that is something that, what you mentioned about being appreciated, being respected, that's, that's a huge differentiation. Differentiator that I've experienced. Yes. Because I've been in way in many situations where I've been, they wanted to treat me like an employee or they wanted to just say, okay, that's fine, but my, my 18-year-old kid over here says that this is gonna work. And I'm like, okay, well get, get sunny to do it.

Mandy Ellis: 46:54

You're like, how long has that 18-year-old kid I've been working in this industry. Like longer than that kid has been alive. No, no.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 47:01

Yes, no, that's so, that's so good. Mandy. Those are things that I think we all need to like. Like our little punch list when we're evaluating a client because it is a mutual relationship. I feel like that dynamic and that took a little bit for me to learn.'cause I feel like when you're a W2 employee, there is this power structure. Yes. My boss and then I'm just, I'm please hire me. And they hire you and you gotta do the right thing. So you get good marks on your evaluation where maybe you can get a 3% raise and you're, they're definitely getting in control. Your employer is, and your clients are, are too. We, we do have bosses. They're, all of our clients are our bosses. But I think it's different in that it's, I feel like the level, in a good situation, the playing field is more level where we are consultants, we can come and help them. Reach their goals. Not that we are gonna be just an order taker and then be held. When they wanna judge success, then they're then we're in trouble if they didn't listen to what we advise them. So

Mandy Ellis: 48:05

yeah, I feel like that too is part of the transition, like me leaving my full-time job and then starting the business. Mm-hmm. I think one of the longest lessons that took me to learn was like you and your clients are equals you are equal. Yes. If you wanna negotiate, yes. If you want to ask for more money, if you need a deadline extension, like you are 50 50 in this partnership, and most of the time you should not be taking more. 50 to 70, maybe sometimes 80%. If you're doing like messaging or strategy of responsibility for that project, like most of the time it's 50 to 60 to 70% of responsibility. And when we start taking all the responsibility, then it becomes this huge like employee style relationship where you're no longer equals, like they're your boss. They're just telling you what to do. And like we, you're res like if it doesn't work now, now you're totally responsible, which makes no sense,

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 48:59

you know? Right. Yeah. So good, so good. I wanted to talk to you, you mentioned earlier about spreadsheets and sometimes those are, might be mm-hmm. 1998, but that's okay. 1998 was a good spreadsheet. Yeah,

Mandy Ellis: 49:10

yeah, yeah. I need the spreadsheet.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 49:12

Yes. Can you talk to me about pitching, about feeding that marketing Tim Tamagotchi? What are those systems that you use that you advise your, your clients and your groups to? How do you use that and how do you look at the data when and seeing like what data points tell you what to tweak to make those pipelines better?

Mandy Ellis: 49:32

Yeah, so I have two separate spreadsheets, one's for magazines and one's for Lois'cause they're different things. But you should be tracking your revenue ranges for clients. Like every, everything in your spreadsheet, right? You should have the contact who, what their email is, where you reached out, the title of that person. You should have the revenue, like the current revenue or funding of every company, the niche that they're in, the types of projects that they work on, which you can see from their website. You can see it on social media too. And then any follow-ups or anything that you've done. And then you're gonna go through that spreadsheet for your lois and be like. Who's responding, right? Mm-hmm. So I like color coding. That makes it easy for me. So who's responding? And we make them yellow or orange. Okay. This is my typical response rate every month, and your response rate could be anywhere from 10 to 30%. That's what I've gotten with Lois over 10 plus years. I think right now it's 8%. That's what I've been hearing from other writers and my students like it's around 8%, but 10, somewhere between 10 and 30 should be your response rate. And then you have a color code of here's all the people that responded from that color code. Who then became a client, right? We make them green. So yellow is who responded green became a client, and now we know that our clients like, here's these three clients. They have between, this is how I did it. So my, my best clients I know make between 20 to 50 million their series B and series C startups. And I know that from the sheet telling me like, here's who became a client. They have between 20 and 50 million in, in funding. And you're tracking those things so that you have, Hey, like my LOI percentage is going down. Do I need to change the revenue range or maybe the niches that I'm targeting. But you have it all clear there. This is who didn't respond at all. Here's the yellow people who I'm gonna follow up with. Here's the green people who became clients. And that way it's like a visual representation. And every month you have a new spreadsheet where you type all that out. And then I use Boomerang to follow up. So like anytime I need to follow up with a client, I just tell Boomerang, put this back in my inbox. You can use. The Gmail feature, the snooze feature, but Boomerang lets you do it where it says, Hey, if no reply, put this back in my inbox. So that really helps. Now with magazines, what we're looking at is like the most of the time that's like, when did I send the pitch? What pitch was that? What magazine was it? What was the title? Like the editor's title?'cause they can be all over the place. What was the email address? And then what other five to 10 magazines could I send this idea to? So that way when you're sending these and you're like, okay, let me go back and look at all the pitches I sent this month. I can now see which ones were accepted, which ones they were like, Hey, hold on a second, or something happened. And then I can go back and say, okay, out of these 50 pitches I sent, I'm gonna resend these 12 to these other five to 10 magazines that I've already put in my spreadsheet. So it's easier for me to track like. Who's responding, where the ideas are, what stage the ideas are in, and then if I need to follow up, boomerang that message. But I feel a lot of that is just, this is stuff people should be tracking. Like you need to know how, like for me, the response rate of your lois is more significant than how, like where, what stage do people become a client? Because that is something I can't control. I can control what I'm sending in my LOI, I can control who I'm sending it to and I can control how many I send. And that gives me a better indicator of, now that I know who's responding, I'm gonna double down on that. Now I know who's becoming a dominant client, I'm gonna double down on that. So now I'm able to keep iterating that data to then track things appropriately, but get closer and closer to that diamond, that series B, series C startup of 20 to 50 million, or whoever your ideal client is, and magazines too. It's like when I write the pitch, I already have. Right. This took many years, but like I'm, I can think of other magazines. I'm like, oh, this would be a fit for these three magazines. So that way when I follow up, I don't have to like reinvent the wheel. I left myself a note of, okay, now that you did this, go send it to these people. It makes it a lot easier. And, and the spreadsheet is, I think you need that big picture view. I've had people do it in a Word doc and I just feel like it's, you don't wanna scan down, you wanna scan across because then you can see like all the matching colors and the, the numbers and you can keep like it, it's a lot easier to see visually that way.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 53:48

Man, this is so good. So, so good. Mandy, I love this. And I think this, this is what we need to do. I'm to be as detailed

Mandy Ellis: 53:55

as possible. I'm trying to like, that's my, my thing is like try to help people with like as specific as I could be.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 54:00

Yes. And we need more of that. We don't need the theory. We need the application. We need the real life. We need the real, because everything. When you were talking about paying attention to the data in our business and letting it inform us and letting it Yeah. Tell us what it needs. Yeah. That's such a better use of our time. When we were talking about beginning, how everybody's saying, oh, freelance writing is dead and freelancing is gonna go away, and all of these things, it's okay, but based on what data? Because

Mandy Ellis: 54:30

yes, if

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 54:30

we look inside, if we're spending so much of our time paying attention to what everybody's saying, and if we just redirected that attention to us to take to writing the notes to ourselves, like you said, I, I love that idea. Um, because I feel like a lot of us were juggling multiple things. Yep. Multiple assignments or projects, so helping ourselves, being a good helper to ourselves by, by, by giving our ourselves those notes on what to do next, using tools like Boomerang. And paying attention to the data. Putting it, we we're spending time, I feel like on the wrong things. I'm, I'm, I'm all about feelings and I feel like, all right, we wanna punch a pillow. Let's do it. Wanna cry it out? Great. Yeah. And then we need to bust out our spreadsheet and do what you're saying.

Mandy Ellis: 55:12

Yeah. Without the, without the spreadsheet. This is like why I, the, the spreadsheet came about after a while in my business. Mm-hmm. But it was like, I, I keep, I've gotten students and this, this always is like a reminder to me. I've had students who have been writing for 20 or 30 years. I've had students who. Who have been getting legit referrals for 15 to 20 years, like they have never marketed and now everything dries up. This is what happens. I love referrals more referrals. All the referrals. Yeah. But you, there is a point in everybody's business this, I have seen this across too many businesses where that dries up. Yes. Without the spreadsheet. Now what are we gonna do? Even if you were getting referrals. We need that data. We need to know what to do because once the referrals dry up, because they always do. There is always a point. I don't, like I said, sometimes it's. 30 years into someone's business and they're like, now I can't pay my bills and I'm screwed. But you have to have the information. And now we have, we missed 30 years of data that would've made it really easy to go find a couple of clients. Wow. Right. So if we can learn, just just write it down. Just write it down. Now, even if you, your business is referral based, because that will give you the, the tools and do some light marketing, because if the referral thing dries up or the platforms die overnight, which they have many times or something happens, you need to know how to actually do it. And that data, you can't get it back like you have to do it now. So I, I, that's always a reminder to me is yes. Is it annoying? Sometimes yes. Do I not wanna do it? Yes. Is it, is it a pain in the butt to color code and do all the math and Yes. But like without it, you're not gonna end up building this. This like ongoing ecosystem, great business that actually allows you to do things like dream vacations or take more time off or work with dream clients and not run yourself in the ground. Like you need that stuff. That's like the geeky stuff that people skip. That's really important.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 57:11

Oh my gosh. I, when I was in doing, I think I took a financial accounting class and I remember the, the professor was always like, you make what you measure. And I think I've heard remixes, like whatever gets measured. It's paid attention to or something. I, I'm gonna mess that one up, but it's so true, Mandy, what you're saying about putting, pulling up our sleeves and doing the work and logging it in and paying attention. That's true. If we're budgeting for our personal finances, it's true. If we're trying to get healthier and paying attention to our movement and eating well, drinking water, I know you drink a lot of water and electrolytes and things and I was like, I need to drink my water today. But yeah. What we pay, what we pay our attention to, there's a saying about, you know what we, wherever our energy goes, energy flows or something. Yeah. Whatever. We pay attention wherever your focus

Mandy Ellis: 57:58

goes. Yeah. Yes. Where energy flows, I think. Yes. Thank you.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 58:02

Yeah, that's exactly it. We have to be out of everybody else's business and into our own business and thinking about what is actually working for us. I also appreciated when you were talking about the pitching being a muscle. And I think the marketing, and I know pitching can be, it's awesome. Yeah, all of it. The writing us, writing us nerding out with other writers and like how they do their craft. We cannot. Sit idly on our laurels or past accomplishments. Yes. Because yes, the world is changing. You were talking about that, about all the changes that we've weathered as an industry. Mm-hmm. And it will continue to change. And so we cannot, we have to stay active and doing, doing that work if we wanna still be here. So

Mandy Ellis: 58:46

I feel like that's a natural thing too, that writers, if they could, if writers could stop worrying so much about the self-doubt and the imposter syndrome and am I good enough or, mm. If you could stop worrying about that, you would see like how much you're needed. Yes. See how much bad writing is out there, and how much you needed, and how much you can translate. Like a lot of people get stuck. Especially, I know you and I have similar backgrounds where it's like we get stuck in creative or we get stuck in journalism. Mm-hmm. Or we get stuck in this format. But that format applies to so many things. Yeah. It, you just get lost, right? They're like, no, I wanna be like a creative blah, blah. You can do that, but you can apply that over here for this type of client. Like you can do this. At same works and works pretty similar and get paid money to do it. Yeah. So instead of getting like stuck here where you're like, I wanna do this, you can start seeing the opportunities of like how much we are needed and how much, this was something, I did this, I wrote down these stats where like it's like 60% of hiring managers or oh no, is 95% of hiring managers are gonna hire more freelance writers over the next two to five years. And there was like this study that showed that top businesses thought of us as like the strategic edge, like we are the strategic edge that helps them innovate and come up with better ideas and we actually boost morale. That was something that was really interesting is like when, when they bring in a freelancer, we boost morale of our, of the company and the clients, like they get more excited. So we offer more than just like typing skills and ideas and building, like I said, like the marketing and the idea generation. Those are muscles. You build 'em up over time, but it's also like you can bring a lot of positive energy just to your clients and that is a, a thing we forget about. We're just like, oh, like all I do is write this thing. No, no, we do a lot. Yeah. Speak.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 1:00:37

Yay. Here. Here. Yeah.

Mandy Ellis: 1:00:41

Yeah.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 1:00:41

This is so, Mandy, I have enjoyed this conversation so much. Me too. Thank you for being so generous. Of course. With the writing community, with my community, with all of the students that you serve. I know you have a masterclass coming up. I know you have a community. Can you tell us about some of those things? When is your masterclass? How can we be a part of it?

Mandy Ellis: 1:01:01

Sure. So it's in September. I have three. It's a live masterclass, so I have three different spots. It's on the 16th, September 16th, September 17th, and September 23rd. So if you go to mandy ellis.com/masterclass, you can sign up. It's coming up in a few weeks. We're gonna do a little workshopping in there too. So anytime I do a live class, I try to do some workshop stuff so it's not writing stuff. Business stuff, work, work, shopping. But we're gonna do that. And that leads into my course that's opening up. So I have Freelance Writer Wealth Lab, which is my 12 week group coaching and course experience where we have twice weekly Live q and ass. There are seven in-depth modules that talk you through. Everything I've talked through today, like they go through all the things and they help you get from, um, really struggling to attract those diamond clients or work with those diamond clients and worrying about marketing and what do I do when and how to do that. And you're getting really to what like my students have done is hit five figure months and or work with dream clients or scale your your business so that you're not spending so much time on the nitty gritty. Like I really try to help them with systems so they get their time back. So that's gonna open up, you can go to mandis.com/wealth lab to check that out. But those two things are coming up in September. The Wealth Lab opens on the 16th, but that's, yeah, that's the same day as the first free live masterclass. But yeah, those two things are coming up in September.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 1:02:26

I love that. Talk about a powerful way to really think about where we take our businesses as we approach the end of the year, which I still can't even believe that that's. We're already halfway, we're in the second half, and then even into 2026. I, I think that timing is beautiful. Yes. And really taking our business Yeah. To the next level. I, I'm so

Mandy Ellis: 1:02:44

glad you said that. I wanna, the, the thing, the last thing we should mention is I, I think most writers, and this is what I've noticed in the data in my business, September through January, February, is like my favorite marketing slash client time of the year. That is my best time to plant seeds, to get new work and get paid in December for work that starts in January. And Yes. Okay, good.'cause like sometimes I'm just like, I don't know about you, but my summers are either super busy or debt. July and August for me is either super busy or dead. This year it was dead. I know that from the, my business, I'm not gonna panic 'cause I have the data, but September through January, February, sometimes March, that is like my favorite time to like. Beast mode. All the lois, the pitching, get the clients.'cause people are trying to finish their budget by December. Like they, they're like, Hey, if we don't use it, we're gonna lose it. So like Right. This is the time to get in there. Yeah. This is the time to do it.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 1:03:36

Yay. I'm gonna have all the information in the show notes. I think, like you said, you anybody can benefit from this whether you're new to freelancing or you've been doing it for 20 years or more and maybe never had to market before and you need some help with that. That sounds like such an exciting opportunity. Mandy, thank you for being on the show. Thank you for everything that you offer, all the positivity and energy that you give. It's been so cool having you on the show today.

Mandy Ellis: 1:04:02

Well, I'm, I'm glad we got to talk, Ashley, and thanks for inviting me on. I, I, I just love talking about freelance writing. It's one of my geeky, I wanna talk about it more, so I'm, I'm just glad that we, you and I got to talk about it more and express all our geekiness together.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 1:04:16

Yes. There's not many places we can do that. Not everybody understands this flavor of entrepreneurship, so it's so cool. Thank you again, Mandy.

Mandy Ellis: 1:04:24

Thank you so much, Ashley.

Ashley Cisneros Mejia: 1:04:28

With that, we've come to the end of another episode. Please make sure you hit subscribe and give me a five star review on Apple. Check out the show notes and grab my free niches. Get Riches freelance writing worksheet to brainstorm the best niches for your writing business. Until next time, this is Ashley Cisneros Mejia. Don't forget we all get this. Precious life. Don't constrain yourself to a box that you are never meant to fit in. It is your right to profit from your own creative gifts. Our music was composed by Donna Raphael of World Instrumentals Talk. Freelance to me is a product of Phoenix Creative Studio.