Ep. 88: When You’ve Been Driven Mad and Snap: The Power of Reactive Abuse

Kerry: [00:00:00] Have you been provoked to the point of breaking? Well, this week, Rosanna Faye joins me to talk about reactive abuse. What is it, and why do toxic people use this strategy to drive us insane?

A few weeks ago, I had a podcast episode with Lisa Sonni where we talked about how narcissistic abuse almost always leads to violence. In fact, it was really a triggering episode for me because I realized, as I was sitting there listening to the progression, that I could see that I was in the progression—that mine was worsening—and that probably violence was coming up next. I hadn’t really put that together until I was talking to Lisa; it was really powerful. But one of the responses I got about it was, “Can we talk about reactive abuse? How does that [00:01:00] differ from domestic violence? Is it the same? Is it different? Why is it different? How does that happen?” It’s not something I’ve really talked a whole lot about, and I’ve kind of been challenging myself why. I think partly because I resist trying to be like that. I really try to be a very controlled person, although I have felt at the end of myself in that relationship—definitely at the end of myself—because usually the relationships I’ve been in have been so lopsided when it came to the equity of power that I knew that if I lost it, it would be over. And so I never lost it. The threat of losing the relationship was too great, so I knew I better not go there. So I didn’t. I feel a little like I’m not as well-versed in this personally, although I know a lot about it. Is this something you’ve struggled with ever?

Ro: Well, you know me, I’m not an angry person at all. Actually, a lot of my friends and family would say I’m quite gentle, pretty calm. That’s my character. The behaviors I have around people are—I was a doula [00:02:00] for eight years—so being a birth doula, sitting with women who are laboring, they need a calming presence, they need a warm person around them to give them that safe environment. So I always felt like that. And my ex never actually went fully violent, although some people would argue that certain aspects of emotional abuse are physical abuse. But he didn’t hurt me or harm me physically by putting hands on me, by pushing toward me, anything like that. He didn’t even really throw things at me. But I did that. He would get me to a place where there was one time I threw a plate at his face. It didn’t hit him, but it hit the wall behind him. And for a couple of years—I don’t know if it was a little over a year—there was a dent in the wall. And he would always bring it up. He would say, “Remember when you got mad? You got violent, you got angry,” and he would raise his voice and get really scary, but he would always bring up that dent. I think he would purposely position me in the kitchen [00:03:00] in that spot so that I could see it when we were fighting, so that he could point to it and remind me, “You do things too. You’re abusive too. Don’t be coming at me and saying that I’m abusive. Look what you did. Remember that a year and a half ago?” And if we still lived in that house, we never got that fixed. Like, we lived in that house for a year before we moved. We probably would have never gotten it fixed. He would have made some excuse to keep reminding me. Just like when you hear it—you know, I have clients who say their ex will take photos of them or videos of them in this sort of rage.

One of the things I remembered was I was not in my own integrity. This wasn’t something I would do. This was out of character for me. I don’t get angry. I don’t blow up like that. So I think back to this little dog that I had. He was the sweetest. He was a Yorkie Shih Tzu. His name was Eddie. He was the sweetest, kindest dog. So cuddly, so sweet. And when I got back together with my ex before we got married, he would [00:04:00] pick at him a little bit. Like, he would pull on his tail, or he would stand in between his food dish and the dog. And my dog would come up, and he would kind of get scared until one day he turned around and tried to bite him and started barking. This was not his character; this was not something Eddie would ever do. And I think to that—that was like me. I wouldn’t do stuff like that. I don’t throw things at people. I don’t throw plates in anyone’s face. And of course, I felt bad about that dent in the wall. It was a reminder that I’m capable of that. But I wish someone had told me that that’s not you. That’s something you did out of character, and that’s how you know it’s reactive. This is a reaction that they fed. They teased that out of you. He teased that out of me. And it worked. And the little smile that he got on his face when I threw it... Now, if someone threw a plate in my face, I wouldn’t be smiling. I wouldn’t be happy that I accomplished anything. I wouldn’t think I’d teased that out, and yes, I got them to get angry. I’d be scared. I’d [00:05:00] get out of the way, and I would be fearful of what they were gonna do next. No, he was happy. He was happy he got the result that he wanted by egging me on and pushing my buttons and pulling my tail, like he did with Eddie. He was happy that he got that result. That’s, I think, my experience of reactive abuse. And a lot of what I hear from my clients—what their experience is—is this isn’t something they normally do. They don’t operate this way.

Kerry: Yeah, I think your use of the dog as an example is powerful. We have seen people do that. We’ve seen kids, for example, do that, where they poke at an animal, grab it by the tail, maybe pick it up by the tail. They’ll pull at its hair, pull out the whiskers, and then when the animal scratches or bites back, we’re not surprised. You were deliberately jabbing at this creature, trying to drive a response out of them, just to see how far you can irritate them. I think that’s a beautiful picture for what happens in these relationships, that there are some people who on purpose want to set it up to make you feel bad [00:06:00], to make you look crazy. And that’s what your ex—you described it—your ex would even position himself later so he could point at that little dent mark and say, “See, you lost control here. You’re not all that. There’s something wrong with you too. Don’t think it’s just me. It’s you too.”

Ro: Yeah. I would bring up those words, domestic violence. It was kind of big around then—you know, there’d be movies, there would be TV shows—and I would bring that up and say that this was happening in our house. And he would say, “Yeah, you’re right. See, remember domestic violence? Who’s the violent one? Domestic violence. Who’s the one that throws stuff? Who’s the one that’s creating all this damage to our home? Look who’s the one that—I’m scared of you. Like, you’re the one that I should be scared of because you’re the one who lashes out. I’m calm.” And it wasn’t always a plate. It was me maybe yelling or raising my voice. Or it was almost like a protest for, “Just stop! Like, please just leave me alone!” And I would yell so loudly because I just didn’t feel like he was hearing me or [00:07:00] listening to my needs at all. And I would have to almost, on the top of my lungs, scream, and he would be so calm and so collected and almost satisfied that I was in this space. It made me question a lot about myself. Am I an angry person? Do I do this? Am I doing this because I’m just mad and angry? Do I need to take anger management classes? Do I need to go see somebody about my anger issues? He would say I had anger issues, and for moments, I would believe it because the evidence was there. I was angry. There were times that I was angry, but I forgot the lead-up to it, and I forgot where it was from and how it was caused. And it actually took my focus off of the initial abuse, which was him coming at me. So now it’s on me and my behavior and my actions, and I forgot about his actions and what led me to this.

Kerry: And on top of it, to the outside world, if they were to look at both people—he said, she said situation—you look worse.

Ro: Mm-hmm.

Kerry: Yeah. Did you happen to watch [00:08:00] Dirty John? There are two seasons of it. There’s season one...

Ro: A long time ago. Yeah. When it first came out.

Kerry: Yeah.

Ro: I do remember elements of it, but uh... Yeah, I remember it.

Kerry: The second one was Betty Broderick’s story, which I think at the end of it, she ends up murdering him and his girlfriend in their beds.

Ro: Yes, I remember that series more because that struck a chord with me. Obviously not the end part, but just the anger that she felt. She was so sweet and so kind and just loved her husband so much. And then she started changing, like she started disappearing, almost getting to this angry place, and everyone around her thought she was nuts, that she was crazy.

Kerry: Right? When really she was being set up. You know, I don’t remember all the details, but essentially he had a lot of power in the community—enough that he could make it look like she was the crazy one. And basically, he was gaslighting the community and gaslighting her, making her feel increasingly crazy, like she had to disprove this, and there was no way [00:09:00] to disprove it. So finally, what she thought was her only way to resolve this was to get them out of her life. But what hit me as I was listening to you and thinking of that story is that I have a feeling that reactive abuse is a common occurrence when they’re in a covertly abusive relationship, when there’s a lot of not only coercive control but also covert strategies. I think passive-aggressive strategies and gaslighting—things that make you feel crazy, like your reality doesn’t line up. I was even thinking of the Gaslight movie where I think there are sounds at night—“No, you’re making it up,” or the gaslight’s flickering, and the person’s literally making the gaslight flicker, and they say, “No, it looks normal.” And the crazier you feel, the more panic you feel inside you, and then you want to beat something down to push your truth across, like, “No, this is really what’s happening to me!” And it just escalates and builds up and builds up until finally, you explode. And when you explode, you do this massive reaction of, “I want to hurt you or show you how much pain [00:10:00] I’m in, so I’m going to do something really radical as a way to show you that I can’t do this or I can’t continue this anymore.” I know that people who have this happen to them feel frantic, out of control, powerless, at the end of their rope—frantic. I wish we didn’t name it reactive abuse. Because to me, they’re not trying to be abusive. Ultimately, it’s not good behavior—it’s harmful behavior—but it is a reaction to deliberate provocation, and I think we miss that point.

Ro: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s really just putting an end to it. Like, the three words that came up in my head every time this ever happened to me—and I think about Eddie, my dog—he would turn around and bite, or he would snarl at first, and then he would bite or start barking. It’s like, “Make it stop.”

Kerry: Yeah.

Ro: Those were the three words. Out of desperation, I was so desperate to just... What he was saying to me, doing to me—“Look at your face. Look at what you’re doing. You’re just sitting around doing nothing all day. Can’t even cook, the dinner is salty.” “Make it stop.” And something else kicks in in me, just like my dog, when he turns around and bites. I turn around and throw a plate because I just want whatever he’s doing to stop. And it’s like something takes over me, and it’s something out of my character. And I do whatever, by any means necessary, to make this abuse stop. So when I think of reactive abuse, I don’t think of being abusive. I think, “This is the abuse. What’s happening is like when we talk about emotional abuse, financial abuse, when we talk about sexual abuse, it’s abuse. This is reactive abuse, so it’s not me being abusive. What’s happening to me is reactive abuse.” That’s how I see it. In language, that’s how I’ve reconciled this, because I didn’t like that term either. Reactive abuse really felt icky to me because I felt, “I’m now an abuser? Like, now I’m an abuser? Like, now we’re both... That’s how he would say it: we’re both very abusive. Yes, there’s domestic violence happening in this home. Look at this dent in the wall. We’re both in this. Domestic violence is a marriage thing—it’s a husband and wife; we’re both in this.” No, this was reactive abuse. What was happening was similar to financial abuse, similar to emotional abuse. It’s a type of abuse, and this is what was going on. And when I was able to look at it like that, I was out of the picture of abuse. I was just experiencing reactive abuse as a whole. And yeah, it’s wild to me, the things we can do when we’re in this space.

Kerry: And I think the other intent of it is to make the person who’s experiencing it feel crazy, to feel like they’re the one who is the bad person in the relationship. They’re the cause of the problems. I get it online. I’m sure you do too. People approach you and say, “How do I know I’m not the problem?” They say, “I’m the problem.” So how do I know I’m not the problem? Did you think that you were the problem?

Ro: Yes. [00:13:00] Absolutely. Yeah. And that was part of gaslighting that I didn’t know then. I know now, but I didn’t know then that he was shifting my reality. He was changing things around. He was bringing that up and bringing up a small little bit of evidence that is true, and then building a story around it to change what actually happened—that I just lashed out for no reason, that I just threw a plate because I was mad, that I’m an angry person, that I don’t know how to have real conversations. When the conversations were just insults towards me and how I ran the family, I did start to question, “Who am I? Am I angry? Do I need help? Am I the problem?” And I really did believe I was the problem.

Kerry: So how did you break out of that so that you knew that you weren’t the problem? Because I don’t think, now looking back at it, you think, “Yeah, I was the problem.”

Ro: No.

Kerry: I know you would say no. Like Eddie, he provoked me.

Ro: I see it now. Was I able to break free from that earlier in the marriage? No.

Kerry: How did you get there then? Because I don’t see it that way today.

Ro: There was a moment—and we [00:14:00] talked about this in a different conversation—where he got an extra amount of time with me. We had this big breakdown after silent treatment. And he looked at me, and he wanted me. And he said that I didn’t want him, and that we were going to just, you know, end the marriage, and it was my fault. And I looked back at that. When I finally left two years later, I looked back at that and realized all of that was a lie. All of that was just a way for me to feel bad for him. And when I no longer felt bad for him, I was able to see everything. It was when I dropped my concern for him. His victimhood, or however he played as a victim, didn’t play on me anymore. And I was able to see it. And I tell this to clients all the time—when you know you’re going to leave someone, when you know that the relationship is over, when you know, you’re able to unlock something and see all the games that were happening behind the scenes. You’re able to see it. It wasn’t until I knew that I had to leave and I stopped caring for him [00:15:00] that I could see it. And I couldn’t see it until that key was unlocked. I couldn’t see it until I knew for sure. When that switch was off and it was over-over.

Kerry: While you were talking, I had the same thought that—and I was just thinking of it in more different terms—it takes emotional detachment.

Ro: Yes. Stop. Yeah. Yeah. Emotional detachment.

Kerry: Yeah. Because really what reactive abuse is—and I love your definition that you’re putting it. Reactive abuse is: they’re on purpose trying to get a reaction out of you. They’re abusing you by driving you to a reaction. I always took it from the opposite direction of, “My reaction is abusive because I’m reacting in an abusive way.” I love the fact that you turned it. I think that’s a better way to view this. It’s a form of abuse, and they’re driving you to a reaction.

Ro: Mm-hmm.

Kerry: But I think what it really indicates to the person who’s reacting is that they’re emotionally—I'm going to use this term again. I know I used it in a previous podcast—they’re emotionally fused. And I don’t think most of us really know what fusion is. What it is is that when we don’t feel like we can manage our own [00:16:00] interior experience and feelings, we count on another person or in a relationship to do that work for us. So a really simple example is if I’m having a bad day where I just don’t like the way I feel in my body, and I put on an outfit and ask, “Does this make me look fat?” I’m asking you to, in that moment, soothe me because I’m not able to soothe myself.

Ro: Ah, I see. Mm-hmm.

Kerry: Yeah. And I’m depending on you to do a work that really is my own job. Because it’s my own job to get in touch with myself and make peace with myself or to get in touch with myself and do something with myself. But it’s really my work. My insecurity is my work. But I’m putting it out on you and asking you to do that work for me because I’m not capable or don’t know how, or it’s not sufficient, or for some reason, it doesn’t work the way that it should work. But we all do this all the time with each other, and when the relationships are not as healthy, there’s greater emotional fusion. So what happens in these relationships is we often say, “I need you to love me, to like me, to [00:17:00] accept me, to have space for me. I need you to create safety for me because I don’t want to do this all for myself. I want it from you too.” Now, that’s different from thinking of the relationship from needing to wanting. When you want something, you don’t need it. You just want it. You’re not going to die without it. You know that life will go on. Last night, I wanted ice cream. I said no. It was a want. It wasn’t a need. Now, if I had no water for several days and I needed water, my life depends on that. Yes, I need water. So when we get into these relationships, we get into these places psychologically where we need the person. We need them—their approval and their love and their affirmation—to validate ourselves because we’re not doing such a good job within ourselves to validate that. And I’m going to add another caveat to all of this in that narcissistically abusive people make us need them. That trauma bond is part of that process in which I’m threatening the relationship constantly so that you feel [00:18:00] increasingly afraid of it. So you’re going to put more work in because you feel increasingly dependent on my approval to stay safe, because I’ve created an environment where that is necessary. And if you caught on faster, you would never have been in the relationship, but you didn’t catch on. And now you’ve gotten yourself wrapped up into needing my approval because I’ve made you need it. So I know there’s that piece of it. I really hope that comes across. I’m not just saying we’re all emotionally insecure, because I’ll tell you, I was right there with everybody else. So this is the process that’s happened to you. But when you get into these places and they have made you dependent on them, and then they do the provocation with the threat of withdrawal or loss or disapproval or whatever it is—or maybe making you feel crazy—it’s deliberately an effort to provoke you and to activate that fear, because if you feel you need them and then you react, “Yeah, I need you to like me. I need you to approve of me. I need you to think I’m beautiful.” And because you’re withholding these [00:19:00] things from me or deliberately hurting me around these things, I’m going to hurt you back, or I’m going to just express the end of myself because I’m so frustrated. So I think when we see this, we should say to ourselves, “Huh... what’s happening inside of me?” If I’m in this place with this person, that’s a high level of dependency. How can I back up so that my need for this person isn’t so great? It needs to move toward the direction of wanting them, not needing them.

Ro: Not needing them. Now here’s a question. Does that need come from them freely giving it to you in the beginning? So, me needing him, that need for this connection, that need to save the marriage—he just gave me what I wanted in the beginning. He just freely gave it. And so I felt I needed it.

Kerry: Yeah, but not without strings attached.

Ro: Strings. Yeah. Okay. Makes sense.

Kerry: Because if it was really given unconditionally...

Ro: It’s not unconditional.

Kerry: Then there would have been no threat of lack of safety. You would be like, “I don’t need to worry about this because [00:20:00] this person is so good, so safe, so present, and so reassuring that even if I blow it or screw it up or whatever, there’s space for me, because they give me that kind of permission.”

Ro: Makes sense. Yeah.

Kerry: It’s conditional.

Ro: Yeah.

Kerry: It was very conditional. But we don’t recognize it in the beginning. You know, one of the hallmark indicators that you’ve met a toxic person is hot and cold. Instead of like a hot/cold operator, they dose you with lots and lots of gratification and admiration and just think you’re really wonderful. And then they deliberately find a way either to disappear...

Ro: Pull it back.

Kerry: Yeah. They pull it—they find a way to pull back. They suddenly get quiet or get cold. They literally don’t text you, or they go too long in between dates, or there’s something that makes you think, “Ooh, this is...

Ro: What do I do?

Kerry: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that increases the need. That increases the attachment—kind of a dependency.

Ro: Yeah, I think that’s more what I was going with. That’s more what I was experiencing.

Kerry: Yeah. So [00:21:00] that dependency—that high-level dependency—makes us very vulnerable to reactive abuse. So, I see them as linked. So if anybody’s listening and they’re really struggling with this, I want you to then take a step back and say, “What am I afraid of losing here? What has this person done to make me feel very on thin ice with them, on a very vulnerable edge with them? What can I do to decrease my own vulnerability to that so that I feel a little more stable within myself?” And then you’re going to feel less out of control. You’re going to feel more like you have a foundation underneath you again. It’s not easy. I’m not saying this is easy to do, but I do think that having that level of observation about all of this will really help diminish the powerfulness of this process. I think the last thing I’d love to leave people with before we jump over to the podcast extra is to say, please don’t take this personally. I know that we feel crazy when it happens, and there is a level of craziness to the behavior. I mean really, right? I mean, it feels out of control when you’re doing it.

Ro: [00:22:00] Yes. Yeah. You don’t feel like yourself.

Kerry: No.

Ro: Out of character. Out of integrity. Something you’d never do. Not your normal behavior. And that’s why I would question myself. And so, some of us asking, “Am I the problem?”—it’s because you feel crazy.

Kerry: Yeah, exactly. I want you to know that you’ve been provoked. That if you’re not doing this just to frighten, intimidate, and manipulate somebody—which none of us who are reacting do—we just want the craziness to stop. Yeah, that’s what our behavior is about. “Please stop hurting me. Please stop doing this to me. Please stop drowning me out and ignoring me. Just please stop.” Versus, “I want to teach you a lesson.” Very different mindsets. Very, very, very different mindsets. So, if you’re hearing this and you’re feeling really bad or uncomfortable, I want you to know that this—you’ve been driven into this place by someone who’s cruel. This is a very awful thing to have. Picture the cat or the dog. We don’t even like it when we see toddlers do it. We make toddlers stop. “Quit doing it to the [00:23:00] cat. You’re irritating the cat.” When a grown person is doing it to another person, it’s horrific.

Ro: It is.

Kerry: It’s really cruel. Mm-hmm. So, let’s jump over to the podcast extra and talk about what to do if you think that you’re reacting a lot—how to get that detachment so you feel a little more in control. But thank you so much for joining me today on this episode.

Ro: You’re welcome.

Kerry: Well, that’s a wrap for this week’s episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube? Find me at Kerry McAvoy, PhD. And whether you’re in, out, considering leaving, or have left a narcissistic relationship, find community support at my Toxic Free Relationship Club. You can learn about this resource as well as others at KerryMcAvoyPhD.com. And I’ll see you back here next [00:24:00] week.