Narcissists Are Waging a Secret War Against You

Dr. Kerry: [00:00:00] Not all wars are visible. There are a lot of wars that are happening silently behind closed doors and maybe to you. Today I'm gonna do something different. I'm gonna go back to the best conversations that I've ever had that have to do with abuse. I'm gonna go back to see what FBI profilers, trauma researchers, and forensic psychologists have had to say about abuse.

I want to take a look at those who've spent years studying domestic violence or have worked behind prison walls, what they know about predatory exploitative behavior. And we're gonna look at how this fits together and tells a story about how abuse works, why you didn't see it, and why absolutely it is not your fault 

Joe Navarro: When I retired from the FBI, I had all this training, unbelievable training that I had received both as a criminal profiler, uh, but then later within the confines of the National Security Division's Behavioral Analysis Program.

So I [00:01:00] had mentors such as the chief psychiatrist for the CIA, along with any number of other authorities. And I thought one of the things that we use, uh, profiling for is to try to keep people safe. On the national security side, we use it to try to anticipate what, uh, nation state actors might be doing through espionage.

And one of the things that had happened was in studying the behavior of, of criminals and, and other people and bad actors, something interesting was constantly popping up, that there were four types of, let's say, personalities that accounted for the majority of people that were causing harm. In the book, I referred to victimizing others psychologically, emotionally, physically, mentally, and financially.

And these four personality types kept percolating to the surface, accounting for [00:02:00] the vast majority, for instance, of people that are incarcerated, and so forth. So I thought, "Okay, let me write about that." In fact, the whole book is based on what did the victims report? What did they observe? What was the mindset of these individuals?

And then what was the relevance of that in their lives? Which inevitably, as Stuart Yudofsky said, these are individuals that are flawed of character, and inevitably they leave a debris field of human suffering. So that was one of the characteristics. Is there a debris field of human suffering that they leave behind?

Or what people call narcissism, "Oh, he's just a guy that likes to look in the mirror five times an hour." Well, that doesn't bother me. So I think that was a big part of it, is looking at it from the people that I would run into, having been in law enforcement and saying, "What's it like to have a narcissistic father, and now you're, you're [00:03:00] calling the police, or to have a, a narcissistic boss and, and now that's influencing y- your health?"

So my perspective has always been from the victims. We do a great disservice to humanity if we don't take into account, almost like an ethologist, what do victims experience? Trust me, there's a lot of wisdom in listening hour after hour to the victims. The narcissist, which by the way varies in populations, I mean, the DSM I think at one time said it only accounted for maybe 2% of the population.

You should see some of the organizations I've been to where the numbers are, you know, astounding. With the principal characteristic of Overvaluation of self and devaluation of others. That to me, not grandiosity, which by the way, as you go around the world and you say, "Well, did you see aspects of grandiosity?"

Maybe with a nation state leader or [00:04:00] somebody, you know, or someone making some pompous remark about this or that. But, but when it comes to the ability to devalue others, that really stood out. I think the best thing that we can do, the best thing I can do, and the thing that potential victims out there can do is begin to realize there are people that don't have their best interest in mind, and that people that are severely flawed of character, you can't give them a pill to heal them.

There's no amount of SSRI that'll heal them. I was once interviewed by Wolf Blitzer, and it was after the Vegas shooting where the sniper took out, I think, 50 people, and he said, "Joe, why do you think he did it?" And I said, "Wolf, stop right there. He did it because he can." And there's a failure to accept that people will do things because they can, and we don't have to ask the why.

I mean, you, you look at Ted Bundy, 26 women. He took, one of the women [00:05:00] he killed I was 33 feet away from at Brigham Young University when she was abducted. Now, I didn't know that at the time. I was on duty at the time, and I can show where I was at approximately when she was abducted. I was on duty and this transpired.

And his explanation was porn? Well, that was in 1973, '74. Can you imagine what he would say now? 

Dr. Peter Salerno: Yeah. 

Joe Navarro: It's irrelevant. As one of my mentors said, it explains it but doesn't excuse it. I think we can spend inordinate amount of time trying to figure out what were the infinite varieties of prevent indicators or reasons why a person became that way.

I think there comes a time where we have to realize some people are just that way. So education is number one. Number two, that, and I think what my books mainly do is because there are these robust [00:06:00] checklists, which by the way, came from the victims. She said something fascinating. "Eventually you get used to the mud."

Dr. Kerry: Mm-hmm. 

Joe Navarro: I, I had tears in my eyes. I believe that. Now, y- you know, keep in mind, not everybody's sophisticated with the big words and the terms of art and, you know, the psychodynamic theory and all that stuff. Sometimes that's all they've got to work with, that you eventually get used to the mud There's a volume right there 

Dr. Peter Favarro: There is.

There really is. 

Dr. Kerry: Joe Navarro showed us who predators actually are. Now we're gonna listen to Dr. Peter Salerno, who's going to tell us what they do inside the mind and how the confusion you felt wasn't a weakness. It actually was the predator's goal. 

Dr. Peter Salerno: Cognitive dissonance in and of itself is like a thinking clash or a tension clash.

So cognitive refers to thinking and dissonance refers to like a clash. So essentially it's an internal clash with [00:07:00] one's thought process where you can't really land on a particular thought because it's almost like this Ping pong effect where you have simultaneous thoughts that are not in alignment and you can't necessarily land on, you know, the truth.

It's like you're stuck in this limbo, so to speak. Mm-hmm. 

Joe Navarro: It's 

Dr. Peter Salerno: very hard for people to wrap their minds around the idea that someone is intentionally manipulating truth rather than manipulating truth as a defense against their own fears or insecurities. This idea that people can intentionally offend and then deny that they're doing that, and then keep doing it regardless of the damage that it causes, and then to try to convince you to believe that they're really just reacting to you or it's taking two in this dynamic, that's really what causes the cognitive dissonance because you don't know what's true.

You're unable to believe what is true, and then at the same time you're blaming yourself for not knowing what is true. And I believe that's trauma. I would call that, that constant perception of [00:08:00] threat in your nervous system- Yeah ... to me, that's traumatic. So when we're talking about cognitive dissonance in the sense of somebody is coercing you and trying to convince you to question your perception, that I think eventually results in a traumatic experience or cumulative chronic traumatic experiences.

That's non-pathological. I think we're all capable of hurting other people in that way- Okay ... and then learning from it and then changing the behavior based on the consequences not wanting to be repeated. A pathological personality, they don't see the problem with it in the first place, so they don't have any intention of changing it, and so it's very intentional.

I think sometimes it's conscious and deliberate. Other times it's just habitual based on their pattern of behavior, but the outcome is the same. And then trying to question them or get them to reason with you or collaborate with you is, it's a losing battle, and what they're gonna do is externalize the blame, which further puts you in this dissonant state.

Even if someone hasn't ever laid a hand on you, they could be doing significant damage to [00:09:00]your psyche, to your core belief system, to your nervous system, to your body without any physical evidence of it. And I, I would say that's trauma, and I want to empower people to feel comfortable saying, "This was something that was traumatic for me."

One of them is this kind of perpetual ambiguity of just, again, not being able to land on something. If a abusive person can keep you in a state of ambiguity, they can control you. It's the uncertainty and the not knowing that is how they control you because you're constantly battling with trying to land on something and then doubting yourself again.

And as long as you doubt yourself, you might be willing to continue trying to w- you know, try to work the relationship out. And that's all intentional. They bank on that. It- that's what works for them, as you said. That's very well put. As long as they can keep you in a state of confusion, they pretty much are controlling the situation.

Personality disorders, specifically the Cluster B personality disorders, they operate with this dichotomous thinking, this all or nothing, black or white thinking. So that's one of the reasons why these [00:10:00] relationships are also so intense and extreme, is because there really is no gray area in the interpersonal relating.

It's either you're the best thing that ever happened to them or you're the worst thing, and they're gonna treat you accordingly. If you're currently in their good graces, they're going to shower you with affection and intensity, not necessarily authentic intimacy, but an intensity that feels very good, feels like a high.

And then when you fall off the pedestal, they will devalue and demean you. It's all or nothing. I think it makes perfect sense why most people do think no one would ever do these things on purpose. There's no way that someone could intentionally do these things. So the right knowledge, I think, is gonna be very liberating.

Not just speculating about this, but what does the research actually show? Like, is there any, like, hard data on this idea that some people have these behavioral patterns because they're predisposed to have them? Some people have no remorse, no guilt, no shame about these behaviors, not because something happened to them, but because it just wasn't there to begin with.

Dr. Kerry: That confusion you felt was not accidental, and [00:11:00] unfortunately it's not unique to you either. Now we're going to listen to Don Hennessey and Dr. Leslie Dobson. Don Hennessey spent years with abusive men trying to understand why they did what they did, and then Dr. Leslie Dobson worked in a maximum security prison with some of the most dangerous offenders on earth, and they both found the same thing.

These individuals are working off the same playbook. 

Don Hennessy: None of the ladies actually knew what had happened to them. They had no idea how they ended up in an abusive relationship. They kept on saying, "I must be very stupid. I must be very naive." If it had happened more than once to them, "It must be written all over my face that I'm a, a sucker for these kind of men," or whatever.

So they kept on internalizing the responsibility. And when we began to look at that, we said, "No, that's not, that's not wh- what's happening." We suddenly began to realize that the men were doing something which we couldn't quite define. Their operation [00:12:00] was very covert And the women who are the target of that operation were not able to define it or describe it.

Dr. Kerry: Mm. So what happens in the grooming of a person? 

Don Hennessy: We all groom people. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm. 

Don Hennessy: Right? Uh, we find out which one is going to be emptying the dishwasher, and we don't ask the other one to do it. We just keep playing up on the one child. If we go into a new office to work, uh, we- within an hour we will know the person to help us with the photocopying machine or tell us where the coffee cups are, and we'll ignore somebody else.

So we- 

Dr. Kerry: You're right, we do. We, we type people, don't we? 

Don Hennessy: Absolutely. We're all quite skilled at finding people who will cooperate with us, make our lives a little bit easier. So grooming is a, a natural thing. What's difficult to accept with men in, in this situation when it's an adult grooming another [00:13:00] person, is that the intention is devious, that they're not just out to make everybody a little bit life easier.

They're out to actually take advantage of the partner. If you were a completely different woman, he would still treat you the way he's treating you So it's nothing to do with you. Oh. It's not who you are or how you operate. It's because he will do this to anybody he wants to do it 

Dr. Kerry: to. You're right.

You're right. We just happened to fit into the slot. There's nothing unique about us. We're just one of w- how many? 

Don Hennessy: N- nothing unique except that you're kind. There are some ladies who aren't kind- Yeah ... who are selfish and into their own way of living. But if, once you're kind and all professional people like yourself, you start off being kind.

You want to help other people. You come out into this world ready. You're already half-groomed. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm. He called it hunting. He was hunting. 

Don Hennessy: Yeah, that's what [00:14:00] they are. They're predators, yeah. But a- a- as most predators, you need to be very subtle. You can't just run up and jump on somebody. You have to make sure that they don't run away.

You have to make sure that when you're being abusive, that they blame themselves for it. 

Dr. Leslie Dobson: For me, the biggest thing is that we miss the grooming. Mm. 

Dr. Peter Favarro: Um, 

Dr. Leslie Dobson: even if you're not privy to the grooming, it's happening. So a predator's always aware of the victim or the potential victim before it happens, right? It's, uh, especially in narcissism, it's very rare that these are impulsive acts of violence.

There are always predictors. So they're watching you. They're looking for your vulnerabilities, and they're gaining access to you, and that's why we often miss a lot of the dangerous features because the more extreme narcissistic psychopaths are really, really good at working their way into our lives. We feel like we need them, and then they've built that [00:15:00] trust, that comfort zone, and then they start to harm us.

When we look at those more narcissistic psychopaths, the grooming tends to be a lot of intrigue into you. They seem very interested in you. There's a pressure to date you, to see you more, to see you more frequently, to have sex with you, to push you beyond that of which you would normally be comfortable.

Um, the whole cycle of violence is there, right? But without the negative parts. So they're going to love bomb you, gift giving. Just everything is going to feel like infatuation. It's going to feel like you have just, the prince in a cartoon has been dropped in your lap. I think if people are pressuring you, it's, it's a, it could be a red flag.

Mm. It could be a pink flag 

Dr. Kerry: And you like [00:16:00] hesitation to say your no, you know, kind of try to convince you into something? 

Dr. Leslie Dobson: Yes. Pressure in any way. Like, um, if they're struggling with something and they want you to take on that struggle, well, that's their own shit. That's not on you. Pressure to see you more often, pressure to get more intimate with you sooner, uh, more presence in your life than you would like.

Things are moving faster than you are used to, right? Uh, a desire to meet your children when you don't want them to meet your children yet. 

Dr. Peter Salerno: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Leslie Dobson: Or, "Take a photo with me." I don't really want a photo. Or, "Here's a gift." I didn't really want that gift. So just always being aware that that pressure is coming from somewhere.

It may not be something necessarily negative or potential harm to you. It may be, but that person is not sitting well in their own body, and they're placing, uh, something onto you, and it's okay for you to say, "No, I'm not gonna take that. Your [00:17:00] pressure is not my own." 

Dr. Peter Favarro: Oh, that's, that's fascinating. 

Dr. Kerry: So now you know more about their method, but why did they target you?

Well, forensic psychologist Dr. Peter Favaro, who spent decades in court watching toxic people harm other people, have some thoughts about why they do this. In fact, this is gonna be one of the most empowering things that you may hear today. 

Dr. Peter Favarro: The toxic narcissist divides the world into two parts, you know, people who are like me and A-holes, you know?

And- 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, yeah, you're right. I've noticed that too ... 

Dr. Peter Favarro: you know, and they will, they will pick a fight with anyone for any reason, and then they'll come home and talk about their war story with you because what's the likelihood? They do that, and you say, "Oh, you poor thing," you know, "People are such idiots. I can't believe that person messed with you," and, and so on and so forth.

So that's, to me, that's a big, that's a big warning sign. Also, what do people do to people they're angry with? 

Dr. Kerry: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Peter Favarro: If you [00:18:00] see someone who's a great starter in a relationship, and they've had best friends fall one after another after another because of tension in that relationship and hypercriticism in that relationship, that's a warning sign Because you're gonna- Yeah

you're gonna come up to the plate someday too, if that, uh- 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, what's really hard is the in- these individuals are so charming. They're very likable, and there's something about almost being in their presence that makes you feel like you glow. Like, you know, it, it... I'm s- I know it's the idealization that's happening, but it, it is a, it's a very intoxicating feeling.

Dr. Peter Favarro: I, I always say, you go out with this type of person for dinner. Second time that you go out with them, they know what kind of wine to order and they know how to handle the waitstaff and they, you know, they take control, they order for you, and you're like, "Wow, this [00:19:00] person really has it going on. They are so confident."

And then six months later, they're a toxic control freak. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. Expecting a life without adversity, interpersonal or otherwise, makes you more vulnerable to toxic people. That, like, wow. I was... Because we don't want... All of us, I think, wish, especially those of us who have run in with one or more of these individuals, wish that the world didn't have these people.

So help me understand what you're saying there, 'cause that was... I, I... It blew me away. 

Dr. Peter Favarro: So I can't take full credit for that. I can take full credit for the words, but the idea was taught to me from Dr. Albert Ellis, who was one of my, one of my teachers and one of my mentors. And Albert Ellis was clearly one of the top five people in the history of psychology and mental health.

He is the founder and creator of cognitive behavior therapy. Mm-hmm. And anyone who's interested in knowing, uh, [00:20:00] more about Dr. Ellis should look up his books on Amazon and get them. And the fact is that in many ways, I'm a lot easier to listen to than Al, because he was a grumpy, grumpy guy. But he was, he was right, that when we idealize people and when we take on science, when we take on science projects, we ignore adversity.

And then when we get it, we say, "Why is this happening to me?" And the fact of the matter was it was happening to you all the while.

Dr. Kerry: Bad people are remarkably good at making other people feel trapped. 

Dr. Peter Favarro: Yes. 

Dr. Kerry: So how do they do that? 

Dr. Peter Favarro: Oh, I mean, there's an entire movement now to help women understand what coercive control is.

Dr. Kerry: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Peter Favarro: How do they make women feel trapped? They separate their object from their friends and [00:21:00] family. They tell them how to dress. They control what money they spend, even if it's their own, and it's all really about entrapment. The most important step is always to set a boundary or a limit and stick to it.

No 500 chances to get better. Because if it hasn't gotten better after the first or second chance, it's not going to get better 

Dr. Kerry: Hmm. That's hard to do though 

Dr. Peter Favarro: And it's pa- it's painful to do and hard to do, and It's, you know, there was a, there's a saying by Skinner, right, B.F. Skinner, that hope springs eternal for people and pigeons on intermittent reinforcement schedules.

Now, you really have to be th- th- deep into psychology to understand what that- 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah ... 

Dr. Peter Favarro: what that means. But essentially, dealing with that kind of [00:22:00] partner and hoping that they're going to improve is like pulling a handle on a slot machine. 

Dr. Kerry: The world's not an easy place. Don't expect it to be, but you still have more power than you think you have.

Dr. Peter Favarro: Yeah, one of my Amazon reviews said that while they were reading it, they realized it was tough love, but it was really love. 

Dr. Kerry: There are battles that don't leave wounds that are very real. What you experienced was purposeful. It was engineered. Your self-doubt was manufactured, and your kindness was weaponized, and none of it was ever your fault.

You survived something that was designed to break you down. And today, I hope this montage of experts helped you to better understand what you went through, why you did, and why the confusion was so intense. And I hope it brings a little more clarity as today we honor Memorial Day. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for following me, and I deeply appreciate the [00:23:00] trust that you've given me. It's 2:00 AM again, and you're replaying that whole conversation over, and you're wondering to yourself, "Was it really that bad, or maybe I'm just being dramatic?" So you start to draft that I'm sorry text again because the guilt that you're feeling or the confusion you're experiencing is just unbearable.

And you know this loop because you've been there before, but I want you to know that you're not alone. I'm Dr. Kerry McAvoy. I'm a retired psychologist, and for 25 years, I've been helping people untangle exactly what toxic relationships do to your mind, how they create the confusion, the self-doubt, and that trauma bond that keeps pulling you back in.

Here's the truth: recovery isn't about getting more information. It's about having the right support in the exact moment you need it. That's why I've created Reclaim You. It's a private, always available coaching app built from my work and my content organized into an extensive library that you can actually use when you're triggered.

Inside it, you'll get [00:24:00] five-minute lessons when your brain can't handle a deep dive, check-ins that meet you exactly where you are, whether you're feeling strong, shattered, or numb, boundary scripts that help you say no without over-explaining, grounding tools that work fast when you're activated, and progress tracking so you can see proof you're healing even on days when it feels like you're not.

There's no appointments, no waiting, no judgment, just practical support right when you need it. Reclaim You, real help in real time right in your pocket. It's a coaching support, not therapy or emergency care. Learn more at studio.com/drkerry So start your healing today and reclaim you