A Sex Addict's Deception Playbook: How Your Partner Hides a Double Life
Cheryl Camarillo: [00:00:00] You think you have your perfect family living in the house. Everything looks so good, and your heart feels really full, and then you realize something wasn't right in the house, and you go behind this one door down to the basement. There is all this trash, all these secrets, all these things that they're holding back.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: My second marriage was also to a avid sex addict, highly deceptive, living a double life. I had no clue, no clue. I counted at least 17. I talked to him about it. He goes, "Yeah, that sounds about right." 17 women in three weeks
How do you know your relationship is intimately healthy and that the connection is what it needs to be? To talk about sex addiction, Cheryl Camarillo, a therapist as well as a social media content creator, joins me to talk about intimacy and what goes wrong with intimacy So Cheryl Camarillo, how did you get interested in working with this population?[00:01:00]
Cheryl Camarillo: So toxic relationships and the dynamic around that. Um, I actually, um, married my husband after 10 years of dating and found out that he'd had like a porn addiction, an alcohol addiction, a all kinds of addictions situation going on, and I decided I was gonna pursue the sex addiction therapy route because he was not doing anything for nine months.
Um, no communication, very angry, disconnected. And, you know, when we started this relationship, I was the princess to his world. Um- Hmm ... classic narcissist kind of tendencies, and I f- I, you know, flew towards that like a, you know, like a moth to the flame. Um, but you know, it- Hard,
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: hard not to, right?
Cheryl Camarillo: Yeah. I mean, it, it was a, it was a good, um, good start to the relationship, and we were actually a little bit detached 'cause I, you know, I was older.
I was in my, um, 40s. He was in his 40s as well. We lived three miles apart. We had our own lives, and, um, you know, when I found [00:02:00] out that he was using porn, um, I did what most women do, which is, or a lot of women do, is say, "Well, that's what men do." But he was like past the point of just occasional kind of stuff, and it was more of like, "I don't care where I'm watching it.
Um, doesn't matter. All day, every day." And that, that was kind of where I had to draw the line, mostly because I think my daughter asked, "Why does he watch women?" And I was like, oh, my gosh, you know? That's like a huge, um, you know, violation and sexual abuse in its own format. So I had to ask him to leave so that he could learn, you know, learn more about that.
So that's kind of how I started in the field. And you know, when I went to my very first training, on the first day, in the first hour, I met Dr. Adams, who was a specialist in adult children of sex addicts, but he also was a specialist in mother enmeshed men. Mm-hmm. Um, and that was my husband. So, um-
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Hmm ...
Cheryl Camarillo: you know, the mother-in-law th- whose every emotional need has gotta be met by her son, that was [00:03:00] my husband.
So, um, you know, narcissist, uh, was his mother, and he was, you know, following in some footsteps, so.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Wow. Mm-hmm. How did you find out? What was sort of the... 'Cause I, I can hear there's a massive shift that you went- Yeah ... from not knowing to knowing. But what, what was sort of the, the discovery like?
Cheryl Camarillo: The, the discovery of the, um, the narcissist enmeshment piece or of the addiction piece?
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: No, the, the addiction piece.
Cheryl Camarillo: Um, so, um, it's, it's, um, I didn't know it was an addiction until I actually went to go see Dr. Patrick Carnes 'cause I was looking for anybody that specialized in sex and porn addiction, and so he was the guru. And he was gonna be up in Dallas, so I drove, I drove up to Dallas and paid for a conference to be there, and While I was there, there were people that were 20 years, 30 years experienced, and I'm looking around and there is couples.
It's like man and wife. Yeah. Um, so couples therapist in there, and they're all trained in this, and I was like, "Well, this is a real [00:04:00] thing. Um, better go, better go do something." And then, you know, I enrolled for that first training and I came back, and I was super excited because I knew after the first... I mean, I traveled to Arkansas for the second part of the, you know, let's find out why I can't get my husband, um, on board and returned home.
And when I went to, um, Arkansas, that- that's where I met Dr. Adams. And you know, he just, he had a lot of stories in his book, and I was checking his book out and I was purchasing it and I was like, "My husband's story is a lot worse." Uh, he was, his dad was a sex addict, so he'd taken him from secretary's house to secretary's house to secretary's house.
And his mom found out because he said he wanted a toy, and what was happening was his dad was sitting him in front of the TV with all the food he wanted, all the toys he wanted, and, uh, all the TV. So there he is. Um, that's what he learned. Guess what kind of addictions he ended up with as an adult? You know, addicted to- Yeah
you know, uh, food, you know, Food Network, [00:05:00] Shopping Network, you name it, everything. Um, but he's such a, he was such a good man, um, that I, you know, that I was like, you know, "I can overlook," but when you stack all these things up and then you start looking at, well, this is like a long history in his family line, and then you start looking at what kinds of things or dynamics did you see in your own family, it just really started to hit home.
And I run groups for men and women. I work with the sex addicts and porn addicts, and I also work with the partners in betrayal trauma. And um, it's the betrayal trauma piece. You know, you're running groups and you're having discussions and you're just realizing, "Oh my, that, yeah, that narcissistic trait, that was there," and you know, "Oh, this like, you know, self-involved, uh, you know, way of thinking, that was there."
And I, you know, I went and trained with one of the best people I think in the field was Dr. Omar Minwalla, and his training is in deceptive sexual trauma therapy, and so I got a certification with him. And um, he's like [00:06:00] three-pronged. Um, you know, you got the behavior, you've got the entitlement, the narcissist piece, right?
And you have the integrity issue, which is I'm a liar and I'm gonna lie and I don't care that I'm hurting anybody. Um, and it's when they finally start realizing this is a bigger problem and she's just not gonna shut up about it that it starts to turn into one of these things where a lot of the women are, like they have to get all of their emotions out, but then they have to come out on the other side Empowered, strong, because these women are not like w- you know, weeping, weeping willows, crying or anything like that.
They are in the beginning, but if I've done my job right and they've done all their research, and they're good researchers, they have studied everything and they have like learned to figure out like how to pull all the pieces together, and they're all women that I'm just like in awe of. They're like, they're like people that have accomplished things.
They've raised their children. Their kids are doing great things. Um, so I just have a big appreciation for the women on the other side of finding out about, um, you [00:07:00] know, some kind of sex addiction or porn addiction and it's like a big puzzle. Like, where did this man get this issue from? And I told you my husband's, and then, you know, the same thing, like what made me open to choosing a partner that was, you know, in, in that direction and, you know, moth to a flame.
I told you, you know, "Tell me I'm your princess," and I was like, "Okay, well, oldest child of four, you had a lot of responsibilities. You didn't have a lot of like you're such a, you're the best girl ever kind of thing, but here's my husband giving me that." So, um, so that's kind of where that went. Um, so. Yeah.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It's very attractive. I don't know if you know my story. My second marriage, brief thank goodness, was also to a, a, a just a avid sex addict as well. Mm-hmm. And highly deceptive, living a double life.
Cheryl Camarillo: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I had no clue, no clue. I think I counted at least seven women that he was having a relationship with during our engagement.
Cheryl Camarillo: Mm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And then we broke up during one period in the marriage for a month, and I counted at least 17. I talked to him about it. He [00:08:00] goes, "Yeah, that sounds about right." So it was just, he was just churning through women in a three-week period. He did that in three weeks. 17 women in three weeks Just, uh, just, um, incredible.
So let's break it down. Let's talk about... 'Cause by the way, I love Omar Minwalla. And you're right, when you're the one who's experiencing betrayal trauma, you do devour everything you possibly can- Mm-hmm ... because it's so, so gut-wrenching. Mm-hmm. That, that's what it felt like to me. Like- Mm-hmm ... I don't know what it was like for you, but I felt like my world shattered.
I actually lost time. Mm-hmm. I checked out. My mind couldn't take it. Yeah. And I just lost time when I discovered that I... And I realized I didn't know him. I essentially had married a stranger. It was on my honeymoon that I discovered this, so- Me too ... it was brutal. Oh, it was br- oh, man. And I've heard that's not uncommon, by the way.
I've heard that's really... I mean, and what a, what a horrific way to learn it too. Mm-hmm. Jeez. Mm-hmm. But, um, but let's talk about what's happening on the, the addict's side. Mm-hmm. And, and, and I also have [00:09:00] a question too.
Cheryl Camarillo: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Do you think that sex addiction is real, or do you think this is actually a, a manifestation of narcissism?
I don't... So I, I have a whole lot to-
Cheryl Camarillo: Mm-hmm ...
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I really would love to hear your opinion on this. Yeah.
Cheryl Camarillo: Yeah. Um, so it is very real, and it's very painful. Um, you know, sex addiction, porn addiction, um, infidelity. Some people will say infidelity, one-time thing, that's not an addiction. It doesn't matter to me. Um, it's the secret sexual basement that Dr.
Minwalla talks about. Mm. Like, you think you have your perfect family living in the house with the, just the right, you know, curtains and the beautiful paints and the upstairs, downstairs, wonderful kids. Everything looks so good, and your heart feels really, you know, full, and then you realize something wasn't right in the house, and you go behind this one door down to the basement.
Yeah. There is all this trash, all these secrets, all these things that they're holding back that affect you on so many levels, like [00:10:00] who you are as a person and, and how you trust other people. And like, you're just gonna be hit left and right. That's why it's so painful when you first realize this. And then on top of that, they're super not, like, smart about this.
They're like, "Well, it's just my behavior, and I'll change it, and it's okay." And it's like, no, you have caused, like, you have hit, uh, a person's nervous system on so many different levels, and it's gonna be really hard to stand back up. And, you know, again, it's like, well, we don't see the damage. You know, there's not a broken arm.
There's not a black eye. But it's like, no, this is, like, to the core. You've hit the brain. You've hit the heart. You've hit the, um, enteric system, the digestive system, like all of those- Yeah ... communication systems knocked down.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I actually had a nightmare in the early part of that that stuck out to me. I dreamed that we were...
My wedding dress was on the floor, and he was partying with people, and they were walking on it. And tearing it into shreds. That's what it felt like to me- Yeah ... was like, uh, something that I... [00:11:00]'Cause I had been married before, and he passed away from cancer, and he was a man of integrity. I mean, his, his word was his bond, to the point that if he promised you that he would help you move, which he didn't enjoy, but he would be happy to help you move, and he, he promised, but he woke up that morning with the flu, like the stomach flu- Mm-hmm
he would still show up and help you- Yeah ... because he ma- he told you he was gonna do that. So, so I went from incredible integrity to somebody that, man, there wasn't a shred of integrity to this man. Not a shred. So it, it was, it was a devastating experience. So I had known what it felt like to have this sacred connection with somebody- Mm-hmm
that where you create this private world of two people. You have a shared language. Mm-hmm. You have shared stories. Mm-hmm. You have shared memories, and there's an intimacy that you two of you have that's unique to the two of you, and I realized this guy, not only did he not, we didn't have it, but I don't know if he even knew existed, and he didn't even know what my problem was.
Cheryl Camarillo: Yeah. So you're [00:12:00] talking about experiencing two different extremes, and there's some people that go in and they're like, they have nothing to compare it to, and they spend- Mm ... 20 and 30 years in there. I mean, you figured it out in a, a period of time, um-
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, pretty fast, 'cause I, because I'd had that 30 years with somebody else.
Yeah.
Cheryl Camarillo: You know? Yeah.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, so I'd known what a, a, what a sexual relationship looked like. What, or at least should look, you know, reasonably. I'm not saying what I had when my first husband was perfect, but it was, you know, healthy.
Cheryl Camarillo: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: But then to see this to me was like, whoa, it's not even remotely the same.
Mm. Which I, you're right, my heart does break for those who've never had the other experience because they're not the same.
Cheryl Camarillo: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: But yeah, I could tell that he didn't know. I mean, and I also could tell he didn't want intimacy. He didn't want it with anybody n- never. I mean, that that wasn't, that wasn't what was gonna happen.
Cheryl Camarillo: Yeah, no, the, um, so, like, the, the piece that makes it an addiction is that some people will look at what's going on in the brain, and when I'm working with men, I don't, um, I don't necessarily do [00:13:00] the whole, like, 12 step thing. I feel like there's a brain-based issue going on here.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Mm.
Cheryl Camarillo: And so I will work the trauma issue with them to try to get the shift going.
They will be doing their work with 12 steps. Uh, but then the other side of that is I use neurofeedback. I use all kinds of, um, you know, brain, uh, interventions, brain hacking, like Brainspotting, EMDR, eye mo- eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. Like, I use the trauma therapies, and that's how I started, was working with men thinking, "I don't want any other couples to ever have to deal with what I was dealing with."
And then, you know, I would work with the husbands, and the wives would come in, and they'd be like... 'Cause I always made sure I met them. They'd be like, "Oh, great. His burden has been lifted, and I feel like crap, and I'm crying, and I'm screaming, and, you know, I'm torn apart inside. I'm just-" Yeah ... "bleeding here."
And that's why, like, Dr. Minwalla, it's like you are the accident victim. Nobody's even looking at you because you're looking at the addict and saying, "Oh, just change your [00:14:00] behaviors," or, "Oh, change how you think things through." And it's like Okay, I couldn't have that. I couldn't sit by and just watch women struggle and, you know, could somebody turn the light on for me?
Like, no, I, I didn't want that to happen anymore, so I started working with the women. Um, then sometimes I do a system. If I think it looks like these couples are gonna stay together, I'll work with the husband, I'll work with the wife, I'll do their couples sessions, and I will do their group sessions, 'cause I also send people to my groups.
Um, I had to set up groups because these people were so much into secrecy that they didn't have anybody else to talk to. The women didn't have any other peers that they could go and talk to. The men, you know, the men were just, like, in the doghouse, shame and guilt, and they didn't think this problem was such a big issue, but she's making it an issue.
Well, wow, wait, you're in a room with 20 other guys talking about how much pain their wives are in? Like, that was, like, a big plus there, so.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. So let's talk about why do you think sex addiction happens?
Cheryl Camarillo: So when you look at it, you have to [00:15:00] actually kind of... Like, what you see on the surface is the behavior and the abuse, but if you actually go underneath the surface and try to s- figure out, like, what are all the pieces, 'cause it's not just one thing.
It's multiple pieces working together that, um, you know, shape this person into acting the way that they do. So if they've shaped in- into doing w- whatever it is that they're doing as far as acting out, then, you know, you have a chance to be able to go in and say, "Can we make any shifts?" Now, that's kind of a separate issue from a person with a narcissistic disorder.
Those people have a whole other, like, thing going on with them. But when we're talking about sex addicts, we're talking about from 0 to 18, what kinds of things made you feel trapped? What kinds of things made you feel like you developed a thought process that said, "It's okay if you lie," or it's, um, you know, it's okay if you shut down and you're afraid of attaching to people.
Like, those kinds of things, the attachment, the, you know, any family trauma, anything that [00:16:00]happened under 18 years of age, those things get imprinted and have to be worked out. Then there's the other piece, which is, like, how did you learn about relationships? You know, you can have relationship trauma or, you know, be a part of relationship trauma and not know.
N- you know, maybe you didn't see your parents and how a healthy relationship should look like, and maybe you didn't know that men don't beat on women or women don't get online and have, you know, affairs or this dating app stuff. Like, there's so many different things that you didn't know. So 0 to 18. The next thing up is, like, gender shaping.
Like, it's the good old boys network. Like, you're in the locker room and people are talking about who got to what base with which girl or who's the easiest girl to get with. Like- Some people say, "Well, that's a stereotype," but it's not a stereotype. It is a common language that they have. And how you show up in that language, if you choose that you wanna act in that way, then you can justify and say, "Well, this is just what guys do."
It's like what I did when I said, "Pornography? Well, this is what guys do." And it was like- [00:17:00]Yeah ... no, not, you know, not in, not in my case. Um, it's not gon- and it's not gonna continue. Um, so, so that part, you know, happens. It's the, it's the gender and what you've learned. And then the next level up is sexuality, like what did you learn about sex?
Did anybody talk to you about sex, or did you learn things like piecemeal and, you know, you took advantage or you had something happen, you know, with the first relationship, the second relationship? Like, all of this stuff happening, and you just justify that that's the way it is. Cheating is acceptable or whatever.
Those are some of the core pieces, and then there's also just the self. Like, do you have self-esteem, self-worth, self-confidence? If you don't have those, you could be seeking out all these people because you need the little hit of, uh, you know, attention. Um, and I hear that, too. Or mental health, like you're depressed and you're anxious or you're, you know, fearful.
Like, acting out is one way to forget about those kind of mental health issues. So there's like multiple things going on, and you have to go in and dig through [00:18:00] all of that stuff and try to come up with the big picture. Like, what is this behavior about, and what kinds of things need to happen? And even the personality things.
Like Dr. Minwalla talks about, like there's features, there's traits, and there's disorders. Mm-hmm. So you can have people with narcissistic features and traits where they're very self-serving and, you know- Yeah ... when you talk about sex addiction, they ain't thinking about anybody else except themselves, right?
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. I say they feel awfully entitled to that action. Yeah.
Cheryl Camarillo: Yeah. Yeah, so the entitlement- Yeah ... is a big thing, but there's also other things like the obsessive compulsive kinds of things. Like you need to do something, and that might be one of the things is to act out compulsively. Uh, just a variety of things.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: In fact, I saw mine when he'd been long enough away from it. He, he did look like he was in withdrawal. I mean, he looked distressed, fidgety. You know, you could tell that it was a, it was a dopamine withdrawal.
Cheryl Camarillo: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: You know, he was un- very uncomfortable in his skin. Mm-hmm. It was... Yeah. Here's the problem that I have with this, 'cause I got to a very [00:19:00] pessimistic perspective of it, very pes- Been there
pessimistic. Yeah, like, like, um, e- 'cause I... Th- the problem is they're g- so good at lying, they lie to themselves first. So how do you know that there's any truth to what they're saying? Because they're often clumsy and leave stuff where it's discoverable, but they also can be incredibly secretive too, and very good at being secretive.
So how do you ever know that any, any of this is authentic work?
Cheryl Camarillo: I think part of that is also just, um, I think it's called relational theory, where there's this energy that goes on between yourself and another person. And when you've been hit with the deceptiveness and secretiveness and your trust level has now gone down to zero, now it's up to them to, like, show 100% authenticity, 100% transparency, and 100% honesty.
And so if they're not doing those kinds of things, you as the partner are gonna feel like if you ask a question and they just give you half the answer or, you know, if you're even asking something simple like, "Did [00:20:00] you throw the trash out?" And the trash bag is sitting right next to them and they go, "Yeah, I did it."
Those kinds of things happen. I've had one guy say, "Why did I do that?" It happened today in one of my sessions. Mm. Mm. "Did you call so-and-so?" And he's like, "Yeah, I called so-and-so. You know, like, how dare you question me?" And she goes, "Did you call so-and-so?" And he was like, "Yes, I did." And then she goes, "Did you call so-and-so?"
And he goes, "No, I didn't." And I'm like, "Dude, you're, like, asking me, you know, why doesn't, why is she staying angry with me?" And I'm like, "If you are truthful 99 times and the one time you lie, like you're sitting in here in a therapist's office and you... One tiny little lie, I didn't make the call." Why?
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And plus the trust has plummeted-
Cheryl Camarillo: Yeah
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: back down to zero and now will be even harder- Mm-hmm ... to even build ever again.
Cheryl Camarillo: Yeah. Yeah, I mean just, you know, just crazy little things, and then big things too. I mean they, you know, there's, I, I don't, there's a three-week factor sometimes I see people do. It's like we've told, [00:21:00] we've professed we're never gonna do this again, and three weeks later they do it.
I don't know what the number three is about. But three weeks later I'm like, you, you gotta, you got a stay of, you know, execution and you just like threw it to the wind. It's like you must have known you needed to do a lot more work or, you know, why would you decide after three weeks to go and do the same thing, go to a, um, you know, see an escort, go to a massage parlor, um, use the dating apps.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Man, this is so devastating. And I, and I love the fact that Minwalla really sees it as abuse.
Cheryl Camarillo: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: How does it, you get it into them that they're... Because they, they just don't take the other person's perspective well. That's what I've noticed is just there's not this... I mean, it's wild. They're good enough to have enough cognitive empathy to be able to weaponize it- Mm-hmm
to flirt, seduce-
Cheryl Camarillo: Mm-hmm ...
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: pull people into relationships-
Cheryl Camarillo: Yeah ...
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: that are very, I mean, that people are, I'm s- sure are shocked when they find out that it wasn't authentic.
Cheryl Camarillo: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: But yet there is this l- a inability to see that the consequences of what they're doing is just ravaging that relat- [00:22:00] destroying, tear- shredding that relationship.
So help me understand that paradox.
Cheryl Camarillo: So the, the use of abuse and abuser, um, that language, um, is really hard for them to accept. It's hard for me to accept sometimes to hear that word because that means that somebody's purposefully, you know, trying to hurt you, to me at least. Um, and the thing is, is-
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, I guess I don't anymore think of it that way.
I-
Cheryl Camarillo: Yeah ...
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I think we can a- all accidentally abuse people- Yeah ... without meaning to.
Cheryl Camarillo: Yeah.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: You know, we make, we may even gaslight somebody just because we're feeling really insecure.
Cheryl Camarillo: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: We don't realize that we're creating confusion and pain in the other person. We're just like, "I, I'm feeling awkward and put on the spot, so I'll- Yeah
I'll just sort of flip it on them and make it a them problem."
Cheryl Camarillo: Yeah, so Dr. Minwalla's, um, method I think is to just hold true to the title, you've abused. You know, and he will look at integrity as this has caused a hurt. And if you've caused her hurt, this is pain. And if this is pain, then you have trauma.
And if you've traumatized [00:23:00] somebody, that's abuse. So-
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah ...
Cheryl Camarillo: you have to, you know, follow the line. And so I have to teach them to follow the line. But, you know, when you're trying to get these men to get out of the shame and guilt spiral, 'cause some of them actually do feel bad about what they've- Yeah ... done.
And narcissists won't necessarily. They might feel bad for a second, but then they just jump back on the horse of feed me-
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah ...
Cheryl Camarillo: feed me, feed me kind of thing.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Exactly. In fact, somebody ... I was talking to Peter Salerno, Dr. Peter Salerno. Mm-hmm. He said it isn't that they feel shame, it's that they feel humiliation.
Cheryl Camarillo: Mm-hmm. Yeah, for the narc-
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: They just don't like, like being called out. Yeah. You know? 'Cause shame, and this is what Dr. George Simon makes a point of often, is, is a corrective experience. We don't like shame so much- Mm-hmm ... though, that we're like, "Ooh, what can I do to avoid that again?" Mm-hmm. I don't see that with, uh, this group of people.
Cheryl Camarillo: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: They're willing to do it again, you know?
Cheryl Camarillo: Yeah, yeah. Um, so, and, and so if you're doing the Minwalla work, you're gonna drop out. But the ones who stick around for a while- Mm ... um, the men will be like, "You know, I feel really sad. I feel really... This is [00:24:00] hopeless. I- how am I ever gonna get past this? It's always gonna be there."
And it's kinda like, "Okay, well, good. You're gonna have to work this whole intimacy pyramid," like the truth and honesty, the, the empathy. Like, some of them just, you know, take so long to understand what empathy means. You know, they're like, "Oh, give me something to do around the house," and it's just kinda like, that's not what- Yeah
that's not what serving your partner is. It's like you're, if she's crying, are you gonna stay there? Or if she says, "Get away from me," you're gonna go off and play the guitar? It's like, no.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.
Cheryl Camarillo: You stay nearby and you come and check on her and you do these kind of things. So it's just like teaching them how to do that.
But the more that you talk about this, the more that it becomes clear to them, "Yeah, this is what I was doing." And it starts to become one of those things like, "But I don't wanna stay that person," because now they see who they really truly were. If they truly see who they were, then they're able to kinda keep working and move past that.
But when you're talking about narcissism, they don't wanna see themselves. There, there's reasons- Right ... they don't wanna see [00:25:00] themselves.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, that's really a good point. So this has been a fascinating conversation and, and as you can tell, I've been down this road a really-
Cheryl Camarillo: Yeah.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. Know this road, it's a painful one, really painful one.
Mm. I, I would love to jump over to the podcast extra and talk to you about the people who don't know something's wrong but they feel something's wrong. Yeah. 'Cause I can tell you what I saw at the office when I was counseling people. Uh-huh. I started to see a pattern, and I'd love to know if you saw that pattern as well.
But if somebody would like to know more about you, get in touch with you, learn about your work, how can they reach you?
Cheryl Camarillo: Sure. They can go onto my website and send a contact form to me, um, or they can go onto any of my, um, social media. A lot of, uh, like I think it's, uh, Instagram, TikTok, and, um, even my YouTube is @SharingWithCheryl.
Um, and so you can catch some of my videos there. I'm, like, trying to plus that up, so I'm not too good at that. I'm much g- I'm much better right now in a podcast. But, you know, they can find me there or they can, like I said, they can contact me and I'll try to reach out to everybody. [00:26:00] And, um, I do individual group and couples work in my office, and I'm having, I think, four new groups starting up at the end of January, two for men using the Minwalla method and one for women with the Minwalla method, 'cause I'm currently working with women in a beta group, and so they've been with me for almost 15 weeks.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Are those the survivors or are those the-
Cheryl Camarillo: Survivors
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Okay, okay. So you have a women's survivor group- Mm-hmm ... and you have two men who are the, the ones who had the addiction.
Cheryl Camarillo: Yeah, and, um, for the women's survivor group, there is, like, a, a male in there, so, um- Okay ... but, you know, he has the same issues, um- Sure ... a little bit different, um, because when he gets angry, it, it's scarier.
So, uh, because of, you know, because of experiences of what you've seen around. So
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: you do remote work or only in-person work?
Cheryl Camarillo: I will do telehealth work, and I will do coaching and consultation. Sometimes people just wanna know, "Tell me about this."
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, thank you for that. I appreciate this. This was a fascinating discussion.
Thank
Cheryl Camarillo: you.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, there's a lot of different directions we could have gone in, so [00:27:00]thank you. This was really rich. I deeply appreciate it, Cheryl.
Cheryl Camarillo: You're welcome. Thank you.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It's 2:00 AM again, and you're replaying that whole conversation over, and you're wondering to yourself, "Was it really that bad? Or maybe I'm just being dramatic."
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