Why Narcissists Destroy Your Best Days — It's Not Forgetfulness, It's Sadism
Lynn Strathdee: [00:00:00] Not only can I get her to do stuff, but then I can generate emotions in her because of me. Like, that's double whammy power. The action and then the emotional response is just perfect.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I felt devalued. I felt replaced, and I wasn't important. I was a nothing.
Lynn Strathdee: So if you felt stupid, embarrassed, humiliated, that was the point
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Narcissists treat birthdays really strange. Not only your birthday, but also their birthday. Mine had a birthday was coming up, and I wanted to do something extra special, and he told me what his favorite cake was. I thought we would go out of town for the weekend- Mm ... just make it really special. I bought all the right things to make it, 'cause it was a cheesecake, so I had to buy the right form, the pan for it, to ha- make sure to have the right ingredients for it, and then he b- proceeded to start to sabotage the birthday so that it ended up so badly that I actually flew out of town [00:01:00] and spent that period of time away from him.
Mm. I wasn't even with him. Mm. And then he went and acted out that weekend. It was such- It
Lynn Strathdee: was your birthday, though?
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: No, it was his. He went and he- His birthday ... really messed up his birthday. It was... I thought, and I could tell he was, it was deliberate. I could tell he was sabotaging it. But I find, and I'm curious your, what your experience around this is, is that either their birthday has to be the biggest occasion ever, like it's the monumental special 50th every year, or the 30th or whatever, or it ends up being something that they insist you ignore, and then they're upset if you do any efforts at all.
Lynn Strathdee: Ah. I didn't have any experience with the latter- Mm ... but definitely the former. Do you think that he- messed up that birthday because he wanted you to go away so that he could go and misbehave?
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I'm not for sure. What I noticed in that relationship was that his acting out was cyclical- Mm ... and that there were periods of the year that were better and periods of the year that was worse, and that period we were moving into typically seemed to be the worst [00:02:00] period.
And I don't know if I, I was picking up on something real or not, but I could feel that there was a rhythm to his acting out, that it was like spring he started heating up, summer he turned into a shit, fall he would sort of beat himself up, feel guilty, winter he would try to like a new program for a new you, sort of in time- Mm-hmm
for the new year, to only to have it collapse and repeat again.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: So his birthday's in the middle of the summer.
Lynn Strathdee: What was weird about that experience was that he went to a lot of effort to broadcast what he wanted.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Mm-hmm. Like, "
Lynn Strathdee: I love this type of cheesecake." It was strawberry
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: cheesecake. Leading clues for me.
Lynn Strathdee: Uh-huh.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: So that we- it would be the kind of experience that he wants. And I said, "Hey, what if we go to," it was Cozumel, "What if we go to Cozumel for the weekend?" We- I'd never been. I knew he, I don't think he'd ever been, so I wanted to make it kind of something extra special. We go, "Oh, we're supposed to be gorgeous snorkeling.
We love to snorkel together." I started looking at Airbnbs that we could stay at, and then he started nixing every single one. "No, I don't like that one. No, I don't like that one." Or sabotaging the communication between [00:03:00] them.
Lynn Strathdee: Oh, fun.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: But he, he had access to the app, and he would actually was fudging up the communication so that it didn't work.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: He's literally, like, wa- I was watching a tower go down.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And then he did the strangest thing. I'm trying to re- 'cause this is a long time ago, like seven years ago, eight years ago. He said, um, he wanted to go away the weekend before his... 'Cause his birthday was, like, in the middle of the week. He wanted to go away the weekend before for a retreat to figure out whether or not he still wanted to be married.
That's what he told me.
Lynn Strathdee: Right.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And I'm thinking, here we're going to all this effort. You've now kind of, like, fudged it so badly that going away together is not gonna happen because I can't make arrangements 'cause you've made them all a mess. I have all the supplies in the house to make the cake, but now you're gonna go take a retreat to see if you wanna still stay married?
And I just, geez.
Lynn Strathdee: One of my favorite concepts in this, kind of, w- when thinking about this stuff is, um, that concept in child development. I know you and I have talked about this before.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Mm-hmm.
Lynn Strathdee: The concept in child [00:04:00] development, and I can't remember who came up with this- Of the pleasure at being the cause
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Mm.
Lynn Strathdee: Which is something that children, that obviously child development psychologists studied and noticed that children have a certain amount of pleasure when they're sort of developing in very early infancy at noticing that they can make stuff happen. Like, it's just a very simple pleasure of, I did that.
And if we watch little children, you can see them just taking pleasure from really simple things like, I don't know, flinging their spoon off the top of the high chair and watching it bounce on the floor. The fact that I did that. And I, I really think that a lot of the time we, I'm not saying you, but we overcomplicate trying to understand why highly narcissistic people do what they do when what they're getting is pleasure from being the cause.
Simple. Oh. So it doesn't matter what they're the cause of, as long as they're making something happen. So like, [00:05:00] "Oh, look, I got her to buy the ingredients for the cake. Oh, look, and now I've got her to get the stuff out the cupboard and start preparing the ingredients. Oh, no, now look what I've..." Just this constant thing of, look what I can get her to do.
It doesn't matter what I get her to do- Fascinating ... but I can just get her to do stuff.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Fascinating. Oh, that's really interesting. You're right, I did see that kind of pleasure from him, that he knew that I went out of my way to, had to go to a special baking store because you don't buy these form- These pans are not sold in the typical grocery store in Mexico- Mm
so I had to go somewhere special to get that.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And he, he knew it 'cause it sat out on the counter that I had done that- Mm ... that I had made the special efforts. Or that he knew I was writing to the Airbnbs on our behalf to create this special event. Yes, you're right. I did experience that. That oh, it's sort of like the little child saying, "Look at me."
I did it. "Look at me, I can do a flip," you know? Yeah. And then they don't really do the flip. They do some kind of like try at it, but-
Lynn Strathdee: Yeah, exactly. You know like you could see a little one [00:06:00] throwing their teddy bear off the balcony- Yeah. Yes ... and seeing it land on the ground and just being like- Yes ... they're just thrilled that they made that happen.
Like I have- Yes ... the power. And I truly think that a lot of the time it's as simple as that. Look what I can make you do, and it doesn't matter what I can make you do, but I'm gonna keep making you do stuff
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: So do you think the sabotage of it was in the same vein?
Lynn Strathdee: That's why I was asking you about did he have some other agenda, but I think- Well, I
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: do think yes, he had another agenda
Lynn Strathdee: very possibly. But I think it's almost like if I can poke you to walk down that street in that direction, and you start doing it, that gave me a buzz of, ah, you know- Yeah ... I'm in charge. Yeah. But now I want you to walk in the opposite direction. I'll let- Yes ... just poke you so that you'll go that way.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yes, yes.
I do think sometimes it is that. It's like, "Oh, I made you go there. Let's see if I can make you return."
Lynn Strathdee: Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Or, "Oh, I got you to set it up. Now let's see what happens if I sabotage the whole thing. What will you do then?"
Lynn Strathdee: Yeah, exactly. [00:07:00] And if we think about like what emotions that must have brought up for you, like- Mm-hmm
what emotions did that bring up for you?
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I was confused. It didn't make sense. I was frustrated. I wanted to make- I actually wanted him to feel special, and then to watch him sabotage it, to me felt mystifying. Yeah. I was, it just didn't make sense to me.
Lynn Strathdee: Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's the icing on the cake.
Not only can I get her to do stuff, but then I can generate emotions in her because of me. Like that's- Oh ... double whammy power. You know, the action- Oh, yeah ... and then the emotional response is just perfect. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Mm-hmm.
Lynn Strathdee: You know?
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Do you think the fact that it's around a birthday makes it even more loaded topic- I think-
psychologically?
Lynn Strathdee: Yeah, 'cause of the expectation. There's like, it, it's a special occasion, isn't it? So whether it's yours or theirs, there's this heightened emotional charge. And anything- Mm-hmm ... that has that kind of heightened emotional charge is even better.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, because if you stand back, and I haven't really thought about this from a...
I haven't done [00:08:00] any research, so this is just me theorizing and thinking about how people feel about birthdays, is that the birthday is a, is a day that you were born. It's the beginning of you.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And it's a celebration that you're a unique person in the world, and that this is a way that we sort of say that how special you are.
In a way, it's, it is a healthy narcissistic event.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: All of it's, it's what I would think Heinz Kohut would say is you're in that moment, it's a repeating experience of being the apple of the eye- Mm-hmm ... where the beholder sees you and loves you and then, and idealizes you, and it, and we all take pleasure from that experience.
But I, what I've noticed is that narcissists do very strange things with that because they have very strange needs around being beholden by being the apple of the eye- Mm-hmm ... and but also being able to see other people in that kind of way. They don't seem to see other people as separate individuals.
They see them as extensions of themselves, so they see you as the apple of their eye, not [00:09:00] the apple of... You know what I, you know... I'm not saying that correctly. I don't know if you're fol- No, I
Lynn Strathdee: do- Does that make sense what I'm saying? I do know what you mean. I think, um, and I'm gonna try and... s- I'm just thinking this through as I'm speaking.
I haven't thought of it before, but I think that a lot of it is around if I'm a highly narcissistic person, and this is the special day for me, and you're gonna make an effort for me, I want that, don't I? I want to feel- Mm-hmm ... that feeling of being special. But if you give me all these lovely things, then I have to be grateful to you.
You've got something right. If you've got something right, then you're somehow detracting from me. This is meant to be about me. And I don't wanna be thanking you. So it's this, I think that's part of the quandary of the condition, 'cause it kind of sets the, it sets them up to fail, is that I want it, but I don't want it to go too well because then I have to give you something.
So I've almost gotta, gotta get this to go wrong.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: You share in the [00:10:00] reward of it.
Lynn Strathdee: Yeah.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: No, I think you're onto something. I think that's really big because this is what I heard a lot, and it's not from just him. I heard this from other people with character disorders would say, "Birthdays are not a special day.
I don't like celebrating them." And then they would go out of their way and make sure that it would be a bad day. They would kind of sabotage it, uh, throw wrenches into it. They would mope around, be extra depressed. They would start an argument on that day. They would make sure that it became a bad day.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm. Do you think that, that it's also true that very often that would be in direct response to what they thought you thought a birthday should be? By which I mean that if you didn't value birthdays, I suspect that that highly narcissistic person, character disordered person wouldn't take the same stance.
They would take the opposing one.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yes.
Lynn Strathdee: So it's almost like they have to find out what your viewpoint is first, and then go against it.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: So you're suggesting that if they [00:11:00] know that you don't care and it's not an event, then they would deliberately push to make it an event.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm. I suspect so.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: That's what I s- I think so, too.
And then if it is a big event, they're gonna make sure to in some ways devalue or diminish the event so that it doesn't go well.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm. Because then you'd be getting satisfaction.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yes, how dare you get
Lynn Strathdee: satisfaction? Can't have you getting satisfaction on my special day.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, yeah, right, right, right. Yeah, and I do think you're onto something about the fact that if you participate in giving them a good day, then the ownership of that behavior might belong to you and they can't have you have that.
Lynn Strathdee: Hmm, I think so.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, yeah. It's painful 'cause I, I know that this is super confusing for people and 'cause here's the thing that happens on the, my side, and I think it happens for a lot of victims, is that you hear that, it creates tenderness You know, we get empathic about it. I know this is what I thought.
I thought, "Well, I wanna fix that for you. If you've had a lot of bad birthdays in your life, then I wanna be the one that gives you b- good birthdays."
Lynn Strathdee: [00:12:00] Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And that realizing that that in itself is the set-up, the trap, that they don't want you to be the one to give them the good birthday.
Lynn Strathdee: No, and I think if we're being fair and we're thinking about people who are less consciously antagonistic, you know, because there are many highly narcissistic people who aren't particularly aware of what it is that's driving these behaviors.
I mean, there are, a- as you know, plenty that do- Yeah ... and plenty that really don't understand. I think if we're being fair to them, they'll go ahead and sabotage a day and not really even know why they feel the need to trash it, you know, but it could be a Christmas, it could be an engagement, it could be anything, where one part of them can understand that this is a special occasion, I want to enjoy it, and the other part of them is so triggered by other people's happiness, things not meeting their expectations, things not being as perfect as they want them to be, any of that stuff, that they just, you know, that they have to wreck it.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, [00:13:00] because you're, you're tapping into another dynamic that I do think is present, and th- that is that these individuals often live in an idealized version of reality, that what happens in their mind is, I've seen this a lot, in that that wedding has to be the perfect wedding, and it has to be exactly the right thing has to happen, and then Christmas has to go just so- Mm
and, you know, they want it to be a sort of a Norman Rockwell moment. Mm. And they, they, they build these things up to the point that it's im- these days are ordinary days, let's just be really honest. Mm. It's just that, yes, we ma- it's just what's special is the effort we put into it, but then in themselves it's almost as if they believe magic exists, and then when the magic doesn't happen on these days it was a, it's a huge letdown.
Mm. Like a terrible crash for them.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And it, and of course it, it can be so painful, as you said, for, for the partner because if a lot of effort's genuinely gone in- A lot of money's been spent, you know, and trying desperately for something to go well- Mm-hmm ... and, and then it doesn't. It can [00:14:00] be so soul-destroying, can't it, really?
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. Yeah, it can. It can. And I, I, I... Here's the other thing I think people get tripped up on is, is that there's so many different forms. I- I think that's something that clinicians tend to understand, at least our training it tends to help us understand, is that every person's expression of these disorders is their own expression of it.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm. Yeah.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It's like a fingerprint, and it will be uniquely different f- for them than it, for anybody else. And so, yes, we try to categorize them in large groups, subgroups, but that doesn't mean that there are exceptions to a way that these people play the drama out in their life. What we're saying here, we're giving you some guidelines, but it doesn't mean that it may look that way in your life.
I think that there are people with narcissistic traits, tendencies, or character disturbances that do fine around birthdays, that, that this is not an issue for them. Mm-hmm. But then I also think that there are other people who have just traits and normally do well in other areas suddenly will crash around their birthday because of what it represents- Mm
to them psychologically.
Lynn Strathdee: Yeah, absolutely. I know we haven't even talked about gifts.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. '
Lynn Strathdee: Cause gifts is a [00:15:00] big one, and it, that does come up a lot-
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Hmm ...
Lynn Strathdee: in my work.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Interesting. In what way? Yeah.
Lynn Strathdee: Well, the absence of thoughtful gifts, knowing that they'll obviously be a hope for a nice thoughtful birthday gift or Christmas gift, you know, the disappointment that partners feel, and the sense of assuming that if they do that, that their part- that their highly narcissistic partner will do the same for them and, and then a recognition that once again, that hasn't, that hasn't happened, you know.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I saw a fabulous, uh, TikTok. There's a woman I'm, I don't know if I know her handle and I can s- I'll make sure to put a note to put it in the show notes. Shauna is her name, and she does these skits, and it's about, about family with character disturbances in 'em. So they're very thoughtful, deal with big life transitions- Mm
around what it's like to have somebody in the family or many, several people in the family who's ill. One of them was about, and I don't know the relationship in the, in the skit, who's, who's, who's who to whom. It's between a man and [00:16:00] a woman. It's a repeat Christmas, and they're exchanging gifts. Mm-hmm. And sh- she has this, gives him a gift, and he's like, "Oh," touched, and he couldn't believe that she remembered and that he, she noticed, and it was a really nice gift.
And then he gives her his gift, and he- it's lotion, and it's because he noticed that last week she had dry hands. And then sh- and then it comes out that he got her lotion last year, too, but he didn't remember that he got her lotion. And then she gives him another gift, and he's like, "Oh, it's a more than one gift ex- experience year?"
So you realize that this person put no effort into it, slapped something at it, and can't even remember from year to year what he's done the previous year. Mm-hmm. Now, I'm not making this as a man thing.
Lynn Strathdee: Uh-huh.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: This could be anybody who does that. But I think that's a great example of what you're talking about- Mm
is that that's what happened in my situation. Mm. Mine was so bad that I bought mine, you know, this is wh- where we're dating, so I knew to go, not go out and buy a h- a new iPad, but I got him a used iPad. Mm. And, um, gave it to him, and then he [00:17:00] went out and shopped and had me pick things off of the Best Buy end aisle where, you know, where they ha- like, near the cashier, a couple items.
The
Lynn Strathdee: bargain bucket.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, exactly, and that was my gift.
Lynn Strathdee: Nice.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I know. And then one year he gave me a gift, and I found out later it was a re-gift-
Lynn Strathdee: Oh,
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: yeah ... from another woman he was seeing.
Lynn Strathdee: Yeah, I've heard of that. I've definitely heard of that. Yeah.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.
Lynn Strathdee: It, one of the things that I experienced was, and I d- and I wished I'd caught, caught onto this before I started doing it, and I now think, "Oh, I'm so annoyed that I fell for this," but he would suggest things that he liked, and I would run out and buy them.
But then I would notice that they would never be used.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Oh.
Lynn Strathdee: Ever. They would just be there. He would comment on things that he liked, and I would think, "Okay, fine, I'll, I, I'll surprise him. I'll get that." And, and those things would never see the light of day. [00:18:00] Uh, and I would sometimes sort of say, "D- are you not gonna use that thing?"
And he would say, "No, no, no, I am. I am gonna use it. I am. I am." Mm. And they would never be, they would never be used. And I now think- I know ... again, back to this idea of pleasure at being the cause- Mm-hmm ... it was just about getting me to do stuff.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It's like, "Oh, look, I got her to buy that for me."
Lynn Strathdee: I got her to, "Look what I can do.
I just have to suggest something." And I mean, I've really learned to stop doing that, but that has been a massive character flaw of mine, is- That eagerness, it's, it's kind of embarrassing
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Mine was doing something similar to me. Mm-hmm. Would, would drop these hints. Mm. There's a word for that. I came across it.
Oh, dry begging.
Lynn Strathdee: Oh.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Have you heard of that before?
Lynn Strathdee: Mm, no.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It's actually a thing.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It's called dry begging, where you deliberately will start to hint at something.
Lynn Strathdee: Oh.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, and drop hints so that person knows that that's what that person wants without them ever saying, "I n-" So that when you say, [00:19:00] "I got this for you, you really want," I never asked you for it.
Mm-hmm. I never asked you for it.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm,
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: yeah. So it's really a kind of, like, great setup too.
Lynn Strathdee: And also, I don't know if you identify with this, but you also feel really stupid that you kind of care. Mm. Like, that you care that that stupid gift hasn't been used. But I think this is, like, just one of those tiny little ways that your sort of self-esteem gets kind of eroded, 'cause then you start to beat yourself up-
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah
Lynn Strathdee: for caring about something, I don't know, like, like a secondhand iPad or whatever it is. It starts to really bother you.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Oh, what bothered me about the secondhand iPad is that he used it to contact other women.
Lynn Strathdee: Yeah.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: That I actually made his cheating easier.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm, uh-huh.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And on larger screen. He'd watch pornography now on a larger screen.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: So to me, I participated with my own betrayal. Not n... You know, obviously I didn't know. I, I, if I had known I wouldn't have gone and got it, but- No ... but that's how I discovered that he was soliciting sex workers was on that iPad So [00:20:00] that it was, it was kind of this nasty karma that o- obviously nobody set that up.
But here's what he did do. That birthday that I tried to set up, then I ended up going somewhere, you know, I thought I was really big and brave. That day when he told me that, I couldn't sleep, and instead I contacted, uh, my best friend from high school and said, "Can I come visit?"
Lynn Strathdee: Right.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Meant I f- was flying back to the United States.
She goes, "Absolutely." So I made flight that morning, um, and asked him to drive me to the airport.
Lynn Strathdee: Hmm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And then he, you know, got, got up and packed and drove, uh, he dropped me off to the airport. He went ahead and went to Cozumel without me, and then when I came home, he was sporting a bracelet as a gift. Said he bought it himself.
No, he did not buy that. He would not confess that somebody bought him that. No. But I'll tell you, Lynn, that is not a bracelet this guy would have bought for
Lynn Strathdee: himself. No, no.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: This was a bracelet that had a symbol on it to me that reminded me of the high school promise rings.
Lynn Strathdee: Oh, right, okay.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It, it just had a feel of like you're a somebody to me, and I want you to know, and he would make sure that he would wear that.
[00:21:00] Whereas the bracelet I bought, bought him and got him as a wedding gift, that was not being worn.
Lynn Strathdee: He was really brazen, wasn't he?
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Mm-hmm, very sadistic. I think that was the, that was what I'm gonna ask you, is you thought that that behavior of getting you to sort of that dry begging, getting you to buy the gift and then not wearing it, do you think there's a measure of sadism to that?
Lynn Strathdee: 100%, and I, I, a bit like this thing I keep mentioning, pleasure of being the cause, I think one of the things that's easiest to help explain various pathological behaviors is when people, clients will often say, "Why? Why would they do this?" And I think that the easiest way to kind of answer that question is go to the feeling that it gave you.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.
Lynn Strathdee: That's why.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.
Lynn Strathdee: That's why.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.
Lynn Strathdee: The point of it was what it made you feel
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: I, uh,
Lynn Strathdee: 100% agree Does that make sense? I- That end of story Yeah ... I think we could almost close the book at this point, [00:22:00] you know, in terms of-
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yes ...
Lynn Strathdee: the why is that? So if you felt stupid, embarrassed, humiliated, that was the point.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Devalued. I felt devalued. Yeah. Made sure that I knew that I was an, yeah, nothing, uh, that's another way of describing devalued. I, I felt replaced. Mm. Um, m- I felt negated- Mm ... and I wasn't im- important. I was a nothing. Yeah, yeah, and that, I think that was, that's why he did what he did. He went so far as, here I am in that other state, in the United States visiting my friend, to send me photos of what he was doing on his birthday, and the location that we were supposed to have gone to.
Lynn Strathdee: Yeah, but I think he did that knowing that you didn't know- Oh, sure he did ... what he was doing.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And, and he wasn't alone, but he wouldn't show that he wasn't alone, but I knew he wasn't alone.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Oh, it was, it was vicious. That's what it felt like. It felt, I felt like he was vindicating himself.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: A- against what?
The f- the po- puzzling part, was it, uh, my effort to give him a good birthday? No.
Lynn Strathdee: Yeah. But in [00:23:00] his mind, sending you those photos, knowing that he's got someone sitting here.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Mm-hmm.
Lynn Strathdee: He knows that he knows that, and he knows that you don't know that, so sending that photo gives a little buzz of, "Ha ha." Yeah. "You don't know.
I do."
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.
Lynn Strathdee: And I think it's all of these little... You know, there are times when I've, with the person I'm talking about, when that person would be abroad, and they would ring me, and I could tell that they were quite manic In their tone
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah
Lynn Strathdee: And I know that they were manic because they knew that I didn't know what they were doing
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Really doing
Lynn Strathdee: Does that make sense?
It does. You could hear it in their voice, and it was almost like, "Oh, this is hard to contain this- Yes ... because I'm so high off of knowing that you don't know what I'm- Yes ... what I'm doing."
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yes, and mine would actually send me photos of him, self-portraits, selfies, in that state- Mm ... doing the naughty thing.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: And I would get to see the [00:24:00] mania-
Lynn Strathdee: Mm ...
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: with the wild eyes. Mm-hmm. It's, his eyes were sort of like bug-
Lynn Strathdee: Mm ...
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: bug eyes- ... in, in this weird expression. He was almost sweating, you know, from the exhilaration- Yeah ... of the- Yeah ... the crap that he was pulling on me. Yeah,
Lynn Strathdee: exactly.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It's, it's really- I got on the
Lynn Strathdee: dark s- dark
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: side
it's very dark stuff. And I think that's, well, that's a really great place for us to kind of wrap up and then move to the Podcast Extra, is that this is really dark, and I think this is the part of the narcissism and even predatory behavior that we often don't explore, is how dark it really ac- When you pull it back-
Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: and look underneath of what's going on- Mm-hmm ... it's very ugly.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm, 100%.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: We often will, like, "Oh, it's a smear campaign," or, "They just wanna hurt me," or, you know, um, or, "They're insecure," or, "They're trauma-based." No, it's really actually worse than that, and that's the part we often miss.
Lynn Strathdee: Mm-hmm, absolutely. And once, unfortunately, so much of this stuff is only realized retrospectively, you know?
Yes. Uh, i- very, [00:25:00] very rarely do we realize it whilst it's happening. So when you're the person taking that phone call from your partner who's overseas and you, and they sound really excitable and-
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Mm-hmm ...
Lynn Strathdee: at the time, that seems like a face-value conversation. Yeah. It's afterwards, you're sort of horrified as the pennies kinda drop, don't they, which they invariably do over time- Yeah
you know.
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, it does. So that's a great segue for us to go over and follow up with the Podcast Extra, is how can we get better at recognize it in the moment so that it's not so much of a hindsight insight? Because that's where the safety is. Because people walk away. This is why I think it's important.
People walk away and say, "Well then, I just swear off relationships. Because if I can't tell I'm in danger and I'm going to meet other dangerous people in the world, then I just won't have relationships at all. That's the way to solve this dilemma." Mm. And Lynn, I think that it gives bad people way too much power.
Lynn Strathdee: 100%, but I don't think, [00:26:00] in all honesty, that we can. I, I, I think if you're showing up authentically in a relationship, right, with someone who as far as you know is not at this point- An abuser
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Mm-hmm
Lynn Strathdee: I think that's the way that bonding and relationships work, that you have to kind of be in it
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Mm-hmm
Lynn Strathdee: And for those of us, hopefully, who are not pathological, we are in it when we're in it, and we're t- taking things at face value.
And I've, I've watched myself e- even since that very abusive relationship almost going into yet another one. I haven't, thankfully, but almost, because I don't know that we ever really do immunize ourselves from this stuff. Do you agree?
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: Well, I- let's talk about it further on the podcast extra. Let's dig into that, 'cause I think those are really great questions, and I even have a, an article that I wanna bring up that I thought really, really hit hard on this that, that we can talk about as well.
Lynn Strathdee: So
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: let's- Sure ... jump over there.
Lynn Strathdee: Okay. [00:27:00]
Dr. Kerry McAvoy: It's 2:00 AM again, and you're replaying that whole conversation over, and you're wondering to yourself, "Was it really that bad, or maybe I'm just being dramatic?" So you start to draft that I'm sorry text again because the guilt that you're feeling or the confusion you're experiencing is just unbearable.
And you know this loop because you've been there before, but I want you to know that you're not alone. I'm Dr. Kerry McAvoy. I'm a retired psychologist, and for 25 years I've been helping people untangle exactly what toxic relationships do to your mind, how they create the confusion, the self-doubt, and that trauma bond that keeps pulling you back in.
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