When Your Narcissistic Ex Weaponizes Your Children in Their Smear Campaign

Dr. Josh Davis: [00:00:00] That partner or that ex-partner is even saying things about me that are untrue, that make my kid doubt me. 

Dr. Kerry: So often when we're raising kids with a difficult or antagonistic co-parent, we don't know how to help them in that process. We wonder if we're being the right kind of parent that they need. 

Dr. Josh Davis: In that moment when you feel like you've just been insulted by someone or your reputation's being smeared, and with the most important person in your life, with your kid, how do you in that moment have the presence of mind

Dr. Kerry: Today I have a different kind of guest. It's Dr. Josh Davis, who recently wrote the book called The Difference That Makes a Difference, and he's gonna be talking about how to be the kind of parent your kids really need you to be. 

Dr. Josh Davis: I'm doing work with dads about how to be the dad you wanna be and have the relationships you wanna have, harmonize your household.

And, uh, [00:01:00] and then after she reached out, I thought, "Well, wait a second, this is not a space that I particularly know." And thankfully you said, "Well, hold on a sec, but these are also people who need to... I want them to see the tools that there are for-" Yeah ... a really healthy relationship with your children." And- Exactly

uh, and so I said, "Okay, wonderful. Yeah, I'd love to do that, and maybe you can help me speak to what the challenges are that the listeners are hearing." And so it sounded like a really nice kind of partnership conversation to have. So a little bit about me. I studied neuroscience and psychology. I did my doctorate at Columbia.

I was a professor there for a while. So I have a couple of bestselling books. The Difference That Makes The Difference, that we'll talk about today, is a USA Today bestseller. Uh, and then I've also started my own, um, institute called the, The Science-Based Leadership Institute. Um, but I'm also a dad of three, and I love being a dad, and I have seen how it can really work well.

And it's not that I don't [00:02:00] struggle, and it's not that the people I work with don't struggle, but I did have a wonderful role model in my dad, and I've really tried to learn from that, and I've tried to learn from the world of psychology and neuroscience and psychotherapy, 'cause there are some amazing tools, and you can apply them in your day-to-day life.

And that's the work that I and my co-author spent a couple of years t- trying to do to translate in this book, is how can you apply these things in your day-to-day life? All people need to know about this, but in particular right now I'm focusing on dads 'cause that's my life right now. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. What I really appreciated about your perspective was that I tend to see where things go wrong, and I'm dealing with the messy breakup of stuff and the brokenness and all the grief that's related to that, and then there's this hope of repair that gets very tricky.

And what I was so excited when I was introduced to you is that I think you have some answers that can help those who are looking to make that repair, that they can maybe understand why it goes wrong and what steps they could take to begin to help [00:03:00] make it go better. So I was really, really excited about this conversation.

So let's kind of launch into what do you see happen that maybe leads to less than ideal connection between dads and their kids? 

Dr. Josh Davis: Well, first of all, it always starts from a good intention, right? I want to... Maybe it's h- be in my kid's favor, right? Or maybe I want to teach them tough lessons, or maybe I want to support them, or maybe I wanna help them navigate this difficult situation we're in, if it's a divorce, for example.

It always starts with very good intentions. And we try stuff, and depending on the person, maybe a little bit of tough love here works, maybe a little bit of coddling there works. But it's gonna be different for each person in each context. And this is a game, this is a lifelong game, right? Mm-hmm. And it's, it's one where the relationship matters to you more probably than anything else in your life Right?

And you're not [00:04:00] willing to give up, but also on the flip side, you get, well, not endless chances, but you get so many more chances than you might in a relationship, let's say, at work. And so there is the opportunity to really, you know, try stuff and just keep coming back, as long as you're willing to come back and you understand that you can.

Uh, because you can always regain rapport with someone. And ultimately, what it comes down to is we are constantly, as parents, I mean, as anyone, right, but in- since we're having this conversation about, about parents and... is we are constantly looking to change ourselves. How can I show up differently? How can I have a different belief?

How can I have a different tool? How can I see my role differently? How can I... You know, it's like, how can I manage- Yeah ... my anxieties differently? So we're always trying to change ourselves, and we're always trying to change someone else, right? And not against their wishes necessarily, right? Sometimes maybe we do have an agenda they don't have, but our kids wanna manage their anxieties.

[00:05:00] Our kids want to feel included. Our kids want to have love. Our kids want to form a relation- Our kids wanna succeed at whatever they're doing. Nobody wants to be bad. You wanna be good at your sport. You wanna be good in your classes, right? It's, they may not know how. It may be defensive to feel like they're not good.

But, so we wanna help them in the things that they want anyway, right? So we're constantly trying to change ourselves, and we're constantly trying to help others change in the ways they want to, and many people don't know how to do this consciously. But we've all had experiences where change can be quite different.

Sometimes you try to change something your whole life, like I'm someone who always gets triggered, right, about this one thing and, and I just never seem to, t- no matter what I do, it's just, that's just who I am, right? Or maybe I'm someone who I've always wanted to get in shape, and I just never can figure it out, and I'm never gonna get in shape.

And you know other people who you think can't change. Uh, everybody has that experience. Everybody also has the experience of kind of chipping away at it, where it's like, I worked really hard at [00:06:00]showing up maybe to do public speaking presentations or to go to events with lots of people, and, and I can do it, but it's not really getting me places 'cause I'm just showing up, and I'm making incremental change, and it's hard work, and I'm always fighting myself.

On the other hand, though, we've all had experiences where, let's say you're having a conversation with someone, and they say something to you about how to think about what your kid's issue is, and just, you change in an instant and forever. Am I right about that also? Yeah. Yeah. So it can happen. You can. So, you know, we talk about how change is hard and it takes forever.

Sure, sometimes that's true, but it's not because it has to. So then what's the difference? What's the difference when we change, when we actually make a change, and when it's something that just fits so well that we just stick with it? There's this tremendous amount of work about that comes... So I'm, I'm gonna talk about something called NLP, neuro-linguistic programming.

I don't know if you're familiar with it yourself. I 

Dr. Kerry: have heard of it. I n- I don't- Right ... talk about it much, so I don't think my audience is familiar with it, [00:07:00] but I am familiar with it. 

Dr. Josh Davis: Okay. So it's, in short, a collection of tools that come from psychotherapy about how to help yourself change or to help guide others to change when they wanna change.

What's particularly powerful about it and useful is that the developers of NLP honed in on what's the signal versus the noise very well. So you, you go back, just, like, a little bit of history I think helps. You go back 50 years. All these brand-new psychotherapies are coming out. Cognitive therapy, Gestalt- Mm-hmm

family therapy, hypnotherapy, on and on, right? All these new things, and nobody has much research on it yet. Nobody knows exactly why they're working, but a lot of people in the world of therapy are saying they are working. They're working much better than anything we've seen. Um, they're really focused on outcomes, not just on thinking about why have I messed up, right?

So that's one shift that most people were clear on, but the rest, I'm not sure why it's working. And people are getting results much more quickly and in lasting ways. And so what's going on? So a lot of the therapists at [00:08:00] the time were very excited. They went and tried to observe and copy. And then along come the founders of NLP, a linguistics professor and a partner of his who are very interested in studying linguistics, and they're able to say, "With our linguistics tools, we can separate content from form."

We can look, we can identify what are the patterns that keep repeating in language that these therapists are using and picking up on, and that's how they identified the signal from the noise, and they did a fantastic job. And so as time went on, lots of therapists started using it. Eventually, when coaching became a thing, they did.

You've heard of Tony Robbins. He uses NLP for everything, right? People have applied it in marketing and sales and so forth, but it's complex. So that's why Greg and I spent a couple of years writing a book. How can you make it easy to access for anyone with no background and apply it? And so we didn't invent any of this stuff, but we took this time-tested stuff, and we worked on how can you make it easy to apply in day-to-day context, and we also connected it to [00:09:00] the research that does now exist that supports all of these tools.

And so that's what it is, and that's why it's so d- I mean, these are people, these therapists are people who all day, every day are guiding change, right? They do it, so th- you know, this is like they've been working it out. And so these are the tools that I'm talking about that make the difference, that help you identify, how do I make that difference?

So that's why there really is something here that tends to be quite different from most people listening. 

Dr. Kerry: That's fascinating. Okay, I didn't realize that that's what this base was on. So explain to people what is NLP? Can you put it in sort of a thumbnail description? 

Dr. Josh Davis: Yeah. The short form is it's tools from psychotherapy that are particularly good at helping you identify what you need to change so you can change in a lasting way.

Dr. Kerry: And is it with yourself or focused on someone else? Because I do know it's used in sales, for example, to make a sale, to convince the buyer that they should buy this product. 

Dr. Josh Davis: Yeah. So there are some people who have tried to apply it in transactional ways, and I [00:10:00] think once you're getting there, you know, without seeing it, particularly how it's being used, I don't know if I would still call it NLP- Mm

um, because there are these core beliefs about really trying to, let's say, for example, that there is every behavior has a positive intention behind it, right? If I'm really trying to help someone change in service of them. Now, there are salespeople who really have a product they believe in and genuinely believe they are helping the other person and are trying to just figure out, what does this person actually want?

And they're not trying to force something on them. They're trying to help them find... I've had the experience of buying stuff and leaving and saying, "I just bought something I wasn't expecting to buy, and I'm really happy about it," and I've continued- Mm-hmm ... to be appreciative, right? Yeah. They were looking out for me.

If that, you know, in that context, yeah, then there's some core aspects of NLP that are part of it. Oh, okay. If it's just s- y- anything that's useful for influence could be used in a way that I might call manipulative in a one-off transactional way, but people always know afterwards they've been manipulated, [00:11:00] and then you've broken rapport, and it's gonna be hard work to get it back.

Most relationships, especially between parents and kids, are not transactional one-off things. You know? Right. It's a, it's a... It's gotta be about the ongoing relationship and the trust, and if you're really using all the tools of NLP, you're building trust. 

Dr. Kerry: All right. 'Cause I, I was under the impression it was more persuasion than it was really about building trust and alignment.

That's what I'm kinda hearing you describe. 

Dr. Josh Davis: Yeah, yeah. And I think that there are people who, there are definitely people who have come across NLP in that context, where you have someone kind of claiming they're using NLP, but they're, it's really kind of like a trick here or there that has to do with how do I, how do I sort of confuse someone in the moment?

You could use any tools for influence. You could do the stuff from Robert Cialdini's Influence book to trick someone one time. That's not the kind of communication that I'm looking for or that the therapist... If you're really doing NLP well, essentially you're not doing NLP if you're doing that. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. In fact, I just was listening to an interview with Chase Hughes, and he was [00:12:00]talking about creating internal cognitive dissonance with an individual and using that as a way to leverage them into the direction.

He gives an example that there was actually a study done where they went around a neighborhood and said, "You're for safe driving. Y- you know, y- in other words, you're against drunk driving. You're for safe driving." And the person said, "Yes." "So would you mind putting," it was an obnoxious looking sign, "in your yard?"

Uh-huh. Well, I think, like, 80% of the group did because it went along with their, a testament to themselves that they believe in safe driving. So they felt compelled to, like, "How can I say no? I just said I was for safe driving." So- 

Dr. Josh Davis: But they felt like they were crossing a boundary where they didn't wanna be- 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah

putting something 

Dr. Josh Davis: in 

Dr. Kerry: their yard. It was bre- breaching their own ethics. 

Dr. Josh Davis: Exactly. They just sort of like, they, now they have this internal value struggle, and so- Right ... right, how do I... Yeah. So you know, they're gonna know that, that they didn't like what just happened. Yeah. For some people they're gonna say, "You know what?

Thanks. I did wanna do something for safe driving, and you just helped me find a way I can feel okay about-" Yeah ... "putting it in my front yard even though I don't like things in my front yard." There will be a percentage of people [00:13:00] who feel that way. But there will also be the people who feel like I don't like this.

I just feel like I- Yeah ... just got backed into a corner. You know, it's like when I'm- Right ... at the checkout counter at, uh, the supermarket and it says, "Do you want to, um, help the hungry?" And I have to- Oh, yeah ... press a button that says- Do you wanna add a dollar to your- ... no thanks. I don't. Yeah, I- It's like, come on.

Do you have to make me feel bad? I'm just trying to buy my groceries. Of course I wanna- Exactly ... help the hungry, and I do in other ways, you know? 

Dr. Kerry: Right, right, right. Yeah. Right. Right. But- So, so, 'cause it's interesting you're talking about we do want good outcomes for our children, and one of the tough parts about parenting is it, it almost feels like, in a way, I, I don't think it's really like this, but it does feel this way.

A lot of parents describe this. It feels like you're putting into something, like a project. You're put- you're helping this person become a person, and you're doing all this work over years and years of time, and you don't get to see what the outcome is. It's not like you can peek and see if the cake is baking.

Dr. Josh Davis: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: You, you don't, you don't get to wa- Yeah ... you don't get to really watch the process to know [00:14:00] whether the process is gonna deliver this... 'Cause, uh, to me, the goal of parenting is to raise a healthy, functional adult. 

Dr. Josh Davis: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: Not a happy adult, but a healthy, functioning adult, and it's r- it's hard to know when you're seeing this child, and there's gonna be periods that are really rough.

I mean, I'm thinking terrible twos is never fun. Mm. Some of the teen years can get really challenging as they try out a lot of new identities and figure out what aligns with who they wanna be. There's a lot of challenges that we face, and it can be scary. In those moments, you can think, "I'm losing. I'm not winning this game, and I'm not for sure who I'm raising here."

It feels like sort of like a black box problem. You can't look inside of it. 

Dr. Josh Davis: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, so there's a, a couple things there. One is I do think for most of us, including me, I think about the future. I wanna raise my kids so that whatever they're gonna encounter, they're gonna be ready. They're gonna know how to leverage their own resources to- 

Dr. Kerry: Mm.

Mm-hmm ... 

Dr. Josh Davis: and, and [00:15:00] their, and their situation to the best of their ability, right? Now, if I frame my goal that way, that's a slightly different goal though. Now this is a goal that is a little bit more in my control. One of the things we talk about in NLP is whenever we hear a goal is to ask, "Well, is it in your control?"

And if I've got something- Yeah ... that's not in my control, it's a setup for failure. Uh- Yeah ... because even if I do somehow make it happen, there's no way to evaluate and I'm constantly having these up and down feelings, and I don't know if I'm getting there, and I don't know where to focus. So if I'm thinking I wanna set them up to be able to handle any kind of situation, well, all right, is that in my control?

Well, I can teach them things like when they feel anxious, they can tolerate that. There's a difference between feeling uncomfortable and being unsafe, and so they can learn to distinguish. And I can teach them that I know that they're [00:16:00] capable of certain things, and so they can start to learn that they know they're capable.

I can teach them how to break problems into steps and to focus on the first steps. I can teach them how to learn how their communication is coming across Right? And so these are all these wonderful skills that I can know if I'm making progress, and I can... And then in addition, I personally have a goal, and not everybody has to have this goal, but I personally, you know, when we talk about, well, schooling, and it's a, a preparatory school and so forth, you know, or what's the purpose of schooling to help set them up for the future?

For me, it's very important also that schooling is also life. Like, childhood is also life, right? And so what is happening now? What are the... So it's, it's the experiences that I wanna set them up for and also the experiences that I wanna help them have right now, you know, and the wonder of learning, uh, and, and exploration, and it, you know, and then I can use that if there are things that are getting in the [00:17:00] way of exploring or showing up in class, there's a great opportunity for a life lesson.

And don't get me wrong, it's not like I spot everything the first time, and I get frustrated, and I get mad, and I'm like, "Why aren't you doing your homework yet?" But, but I am, because I know this stuff, I'm able to pause and catch myself and then go back in five minutes after messing up and then say, "Okay, hold on.

Let's try it this way. Help me understand- Right ... how you're thinking about the problem." 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, and what I love about what you just said, and I wanna, I wanna emphasize it 'cause I think it's, you did something really critical there that I'm not for sure everybody caught, and that is even my definition, a healthy, functioning adult, was kind of what I call squishy.

Dr. Josh Davis: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. 

Dr. Kerry: What's the definition of that? How do I know? So what I often, this is what I kinda learned from brief solution-focused therapy. If I was to look through a kitchen window, could I tell if that goal was being met or not- 

Dr. Josh Davis: Yes ... 

Dr. Kerry: as an outsider? And basically, somebody hearing me say that would say, "No, I'm not for sure [00:18:00] I would know how to measure that looking through Kerry's window."

Mm-hmm. But what you said was you operationalized it. You made it and that then you c- you're right, you can then break it down, make it more accessible, make sure there's practice. You can even identify the outcome of the practice. Mm-hmm. You know, how did they do on this test that they felt really stressed about?

Did they do the s- right steps to prepare for the test? Did they go and talk to the teacher about the places they were confused about with that te- I mean, you can break it down- Yeah ... and see, did they take those steps, and how can I then better help them make that preparatory work happen before the next challenge?

So yeah, I, I love that you said that because you're right. We often have these lofty goals, but we a- if we ask ourselves to define it, like even happiness. I mean, I said I don't think that's a good goal, but what is really people saying when they say they want a happy kid or a happy adult? I bet you they probably don't know, and then as a [00:19:00] result, you can't control what you don't know.

And then even if you know what it is, can you control a way in which to make that happen? 

Dr. Josh Davis: Right. 

Dr. Kerry: It gets-- Yeah, so I love how you've, you shifted it into something that is measurable, observable, and then you can also do something. There's actions you can take. 

Dr. Josh Davis: Yeah. It has to be in your control, at least enough.

It has to be measurable, right, to what you were just saying. It needs to be stated in the positive what you're moving towards, not just what you're moving away from. You know? Mm-hmm. It's like, "I just don't want them to be unhappy." Okay. Very motivating. It's not that it's- Yeah ... wrong to motivate f- with what you're running away from, but what do you wanna move towards?

'Cause without a direction, how can you possibly plan? Right? Right. So what we're moving towards, right? So we've articulated that. Is it gonna cause other problems in my life also to move towards this goal? You know, sometimes, like, yeah, okay, well, m- I mean, if I, if I'm saying a healthy f- you know, functioning adult, and to [00:20:00] me that means, you know, they have to get into the best college, well, maybe I'm creating this impossible situation, 'cause everybody knows college applications are ridiculous now, right?

Yeah. You can't control... There's so li- And then finally, have I thought about the context that I want this? Because maybe I don't always want to be focused on them being an adult. Maybe sometimes I wanna be focused on them being a kid and just play. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Josh Davis: Right? Mm-hmm. So is it all the time? Yeah. And so I've listed five criteria that make up what we call in NLP a well-formed outcome.

And when an- Mm ... outcome is well-formed, you have very good odds of making progress, and when it's not well-formed, you really don't. So just one more time quickly, it was, is it in my control? Is it stated in the positive, what I'm moving towards? Can I measure it, and could I know if I got it, right? Have I defined the context, meaning do I want it all the time or just certain times?

And will it cause other problems? Does it fit within the ecosystem of my life, or is this gonna be [00:21:00] something that's unreal... You know, I, I would need to make too many adjustments, or if I succeeded, it would cause too many other problems. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. I can hear the audience, my audience right now saying, "This is really great.

This is something I can personally do, but I have a partner, I'm co-parenting- Mm-hmm ... and this person will n- first of all, will not understand what this is, probably is not very self-aware, doesn't have a whole lot of empathy, and loves to behave antagonistically with me. So what do I do about that situation when the kid is spending half the time with that other parent?"

Dr. Josh Davis: Mm-hmm. Yes. So step one is to do the same thing- ... right, but as pertains to the parent, right? I cannot control, you cannot control the other parent. There isn't anything that you can do to control the other parent. They will behave how they behave. But that is part of life. There are many things- Yeah ... we don't like that happen.

So given that What do I wanna do? What's the relationship I wanna have? [00:22:00] How do I wanna show up? And it may be that that partner or that ex-partner I- I'm assuming is the context you're talking about- Yep ... is even saying things about me that are untrue, that make my kid doubt me or get angry at me, right? 

Dr. Kerry: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Josh Davis: And so- Yeah, I- Can I- 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah, or alienate them. Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Josh Davis: Right. That that can of course happen, and, you know, these are some of the things to kind of learn to work through. Your kid is looking to you to see how do you navigate a situation like that, right? And they might not even realize at this age, it may be when they're older and they're saying like, "Wow, my dad was there for me even when that was happening.

What was it that he did that enabled him to..." And, and y- it's okay to talk about it, too. It's like I, you know, I struggle. I also am some- someone who struggles with things from time to... I'm not perfect, and it's almost an invitation to the kid to not have to be perfect and to say, "Okay, well, how do you deal with it, Dad, when you're [00:23:00] in this kind of situation?"

So what's this well-formed outcome I wanna have regarding this context? It's okay. When these things come up, now the, how do I wanna handle it, for example? Another one is I can work on building the relationship with my kid where they are more comfortable speaking to me about these kinds of things You know, where we have a little bit more of an open dialogue, where they have learned that when they speak to me, they're not gonna get beat up, I'm not gonna lose my cool, or I'm not gonna, or even if I do, I apologize.

That if they feel like I can't handle it, it's a terrible message to be giving to them because it puts all this pressure on them to handle my emotions. 

Dr. Kerry: Right. 

Dr. Josh Davis: Right? Right. And so if, if instead we have this relationship where I'm just kinda curious about them, I'm not trying to force them to do things.

I'll tell them, "This is what I think. Here's a story from my life. Here's the way I benefit," 'cause you also can't control your kids, right? 

Dr. Kerry: Right. Right, 

Dr. Josh Davis: right, right. But what you can do is give them great stories and suggestions and be [00:24:00] someone they wanna talk to, and it all... You know, I mean, everybody knows, you've heard this a million times, it all comes down to being a good listener.

I think what a lot of people, they might not really know how to do that, and so it's like, "Okay, fine, but that's not my thing. I can't do that. I don't know. I couldn't do that all the time." What it comes down to is paying close attention and realizing that you don't understand something, asking a question, letting the other person know you get where they're coming from.

Dr. Kerry: Right. 

Dr. Josh Davis: You just, it's all about meeting them where they are one way or another before you try to do anything else. 

Dr. Kerry: Right. I see two errors that happen all the time, and I know people don't mean to do these errors, but it's what kind of inherently the struggle kind of brings them on because it's such a painful situation.

One is they end up feeling that they have to defend themselves against their ex's narrative. 

Dr. Josh Davis: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Kerry: So they inadvertently do that with the child as a way to sort of say, "That's not true. That's not who I am," and instead what they don't realize by doing it is they're not [00:25:00] being with the kid, and they're unfortunately putting the kid into a triangle in which the kid then feels like they have to choose which parent's the credible one, which one do they respect, who do they wanna spend time with and like.

And the- they don't realize that just sitting with the child and not having to defend against the smear campaign or whatever word you wanna apply to it is in itself is the antidote, just showing up as yourself and having an incredible experience. The second problem I see that happens is that-

Dr. Josh Davis: And I'll bet a lot of people are saying, "Okay, fine, but how do I do that?"

'Cause that sounds 

Dr. Kerry: impossible. Yeah, well, it ties into the second problem. Right. And the second problem is, is that the child comes to you with lots of discomfort, and you also understand the discomfort 'cause it's a relationship you had with that complicated parent as an, you know, as a partner. And you wish you could fix it, so what you inadvertently do is that you then either move into the same stage of helplessness with the child, or you end up trying to fix it, which then inadvertently doesn't work and feels like all this fruitless effort because it really, you can't control what you can't control.[00:26:00]

Instead of learning how to sit and grieve with the child over the losses- Hmm ... and really being with them in a way that makes them feel seen and validated, and then maybe then allows them to find their own solution to the situation. Or even maybe the solution is just to tolerate a sad situation. Mm-hmm.

So those are the two big errors that I see people make in this that really causes a lot of problem. I know they don't mean it. I know that they, they think they're trying to fix it, but they don't realize that often they're making things worse. 

Dr. Josh Davis: Yeah. And I think in that moment when you feel like you've just been insulted by someone or your reputation's being smeared, and with the most- Yeah

important person in your life, right? With your kid. It's, I mean- Yeah ... like, how, how do you in that moment have the presence of mind to be like, "Okay, I'm just gonna be peaceful and, you know, and be present and, like, actually be here with you while this is..." So a few things that may help for some people, right?

Uh, and I say for some people, and I say that may help because [00:27:00] I know that there is, if they, if, if you continue to work at it, you will find the difference that makes the difference. But that's, that's where this phrase comes from. It's used- Yeah ... all the time in NLP and it's the title of the book. But the idea is that as you continue to unpack what's going on in your mind or the kid's mind, it starts to become obvious what you can experiment with.

And starting with the idea that there is a world in which it makes sense that this kid is feeling and thinking the way they do, and there's a world in which it makes sense that you are feeling and thinking the way you do, right, and acting the way you do, first of all, it starts with a little bit of compassion for all sides that way.

You know, or at least for you and your kids, not necessarily for your ex. You know, that's... But the people in the room, right? I'm not saying you have to have that compassion. I, I know some people who have gotten to that point, and that is a great release for them, but that doesn't have to be the case for everyone.

When you're able to do that and then meet your kid where they are, be thinking about that [00:28:00] as a goal. Okay, where are they mentally right now, psychologically? Where are they? And I don't have to go and suffer with them, but I wanna let them know I see it, right? 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. 

Dr. Josh Davis: Okay. Yeah. You're really mad right now, or you're really...

You know, it seems like you don't wanna talk to me, right? You know, it's like if I, even if I'm not sure, I can say, "It seems like..." Right? And, uh, and they don't have to respond. It's not like we have to get into a deep conversation, or we could. But if I'm trying to meet them where they are, and I can meet them energetically, too.

You know, if they're really kind of like holding back, maybe I don't charge in and intensely demand that they pay attention. Maybe I kind of let go. 

Dr. Kerry: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Josh Davis: You know, or maybe they're aggravated, and I can really, you know, have a little bit of energy. Like, it's like, "This really annoyed you. You know, what's going on?"

I can join them. I can join them in my words. I can join them by feeding back what I'm hearing them saying. Just, that's a great way to let someone know you're listening, and it also forces you to listen better. It's like, [00:29:00] "Oh, you said you're, you're really, I don't know, feeling alienated," right? If they use that word, use their word.

Right. Right? Don't say, "You're feeling alone," if they used it, the word alienated. Say alienated, 'cause they chose their words for a reason, so feed it back. Try to be with them in that moment energetically. Actually, you know, let them know what you think you're hearing and seeing, and they might ask you to just stop talking, right, and go away.

They might find it annoying. That's not a failure. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Dr. Josh Davis: Right? That's not a failure. None of it's failure. It's feedback, and if you love them, you're gonna keep coming back. You can always regain rapport, right? But this is the kind of stuff that lets them know you're here and you're not coming in with an agenda, right?

Yes, yes. When somebody hears you, if you show up and you're just like, "Oh, man, this job is driving me crazy," right, and they charge you with an agenda to be like, "Okay, it's time for you to, like, get out there and find a new job," it's like, whoa, I've got too many things on my plate, right? Right, right, right. But if they say, like, "This job, like, it's, it sucks.

It's driving you crazy. I [00:30:00] don't know. What, what's..." You know, and they just take the time to hear you a little bit, and then they're like, "I've been thinking about some other jobs that you might go for. Do you wanna talk about it?" "No." "Okay, great. Let me know if you want to Right? That's how you meet someone where they are, and then you slowly move them in your direction.

We call it pacing and leading. Mm. Go at their pace- Mm ... and then before you lead. But you have to meet them there first. That's something you can do. That's something ev- everyone can do that in their own way. Mm-hmm. And you can keep building skills to do it. Active listening, if you know anything about that, that's a great way to do it, too.

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. Yeah, and it actually also addresses the second dilemma, which is, has to do with the grief. Because if you're using their pace and they're in the process of feeling a lot of pain- Mm-hmm ... that will leave them feeling seen and heard by you just sitting with them in that, instead of you moving it along at your pace.

Dr. Josh Davis: Yes. Yes, and grief has a purpose. Yeah. Grief is not a malfunction. Grief has a purpose, right? So if someone's grieving, if you're [00:31:00] like, "Yeah, let's sit here and grieve for a minute-" Yeah ... you know, or for however long, that, you're moving their pace, and they're more likely to move out of that grief sooner, interestingly, when they feel like that's happened.

Yeah. Somebody understood. 

Dr. Kerry: Yeah. This has really been a rich conversation. I would love to jump over to the podcast extra and talk about, and this is gonna be hard for me to articulate. It, it's a feeling, I'm gonna try to describe this. What you're describing is how to sit and be with somebody. I don't- I'm trying to figure out a better way to say that.

It's really tough to do that, Josh. This is not an easy thing to do. It's something that we as, at least me as a psychologist, went to graduate school and then had hours and hours of supervision to learn how to do.

Dr. Josh Davis: Yeah.

Dr. Kerry: So h- I would love to jump over and talk about some basic steps- Mm-hmm ... about how to know if you're doing that versus to know if you're missing it.

Yeah. To kind of break this down into how to be with another person in a way that makes them feel seen and validated and kind of accepted in a safe way. [00:32:00] But how can people find out more about you, your work, and the new book called The Difference That Makes a Difference? 

Dr. Josh Davis: Yeah. Thanks. So at joshdavisphd.com, uh, you can find out about all of my work, and then specifically for dads, joshdavisphd.com/dads.

And you'll see, you know, the book you can buy anywhere, and it's a great way to get started without needing to talk to me. Um, you'll see also with that, uh, we've got this AI where you can talk to the book, ask questions of the book, um- Oh ... you know, when I'm not available also at the website. But yeah, so- I love 

Dr. Kerry: that

Dr. Josh Davis: joshdavisphd.com/dads, and, uh, yeah, start with the book. It's, you know, we've gotten some great reviews. It's a USA Today bestseller. It's a... I actually have read it myself multiple times, 'cause I didn't invent this stuff. I just worked on how to teach it- Mm-hmm ... and how to show the science behind it. And so I go through it myself regularly and use it.

Dr. Kerry: I love that. That's great. That's great. Well, thank you so much for this. This was a really rich conversation. 

Dr. Josh Davis: Thank you. [00:33:00]

Dr. Kerry: Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube? You can find me at KerryMcAvoyPhD, or you can learn more about me and my resources, such as the Toxic Free Relationship Club, at kerrymcavoyphd.com.

And I'll see you back here next week.