The Abuse Doesn't Stop at Divorce: What Narcissists Do Next
Diana Romanov: [00:00:00] The spitefulness and regret and sadness is so overwhelming that some people can spend million dollars to fight each other on little things. It's mathematically not worth it. Emotionally blinding. Actually, last week I got $30,000 in Chinese fees and sanctions by using their own tactic against them
Kerry McAvoy: Romanov, tell us a little bit about yourself. Who are you and what are you doing? How have you gotten into the space of toxic relationships?
Diana Romanov: Well, I'm a divorce attorney practicing in California, also family law specialist. Originally from Ukraine, lived there for 15 years, first 15 years of my life, then 15 years in Germany, where I also became an attorney and got a license and moved to California, living here for another [00:01:00] 16 years, so you can-
Kerry McAvoy: Mm.
Diana Romanov: You can guess how old I am.
Kerry McAvoy: No, s- y- and your English is incredible. I was really impressed.
Diana Romanov: Thank you. Thank you. I feel like I have a talent moving through countries, that I've lived in Israel. I have been, I have been around.
Kerry McAvoy: Mm.
Diana Romanov: And I feel California is now became my home. Have a five-year-old daughter, married happily, divorced once, and the reason I got into this business because I experienced divorce firsthand as a child.
Mm. I have been negotiating my own prenuptial agreement at age of 24, and I also divorced happily. Still friends with my ex-husband, who is in Germany, and also met my husband, who used to be my ex-client. I call him recycled husband.
Kerry McAvoy: And working in the family law, I'm sure you see a lot... Well, that's what your whole practice is, is contentious relationships that are attempting to end.[00:02:00]
Diana Romanov: Correct.
Kerry McAvoy: What have you noticed about them that, that seems to be something that is common across a lot of them?
Diana Romanov: I notice at the beginning, people are closing an eye on certain things and then surprised that the very thing they didn't want to know becomes a problem. For example, when money, when they don't know how much the other person has debts or assets.
That happens when they don't negotiate prenuptial agreements or don't even have a prenuptial agreement, married too soon, too fast, don't experience the first conflict. For example, I remember when I was dating and a guy who at the date got a little bit tipsy, and he started become aggressive, physically aggressive at someone else.
I noticed that someone else will be me soon if I stay, so that was the first- Mm ... and the last date. And so those kind of red flags, not noticing or ignoring or [00:03:00] maybe something else is more important. If someone seeks security, then certain aspects have been there too. When I was seeking security, financial security more than personal safety or if someone is criticizing It eats away from confidence.
Yeah. And eventually... It, it can happen to men too, but usually I get female clients who experience that low self-esteem. And when they come to my office, when I ask them what they want, they usually first thing they say, "He wants, and he would agree."
Kerry McAvoy: Mm.
Diana Romanov: But, uh, my question is, "What do you want?" So they are so focused on pleasing the other person that they lose themselves in the relationship, not having their own goals, not having their own career, not having their own boundaries.
If they are taking care of the children, well, there are also boundaries, hiring a nanny, taking time off, doing date nights. I had a couple who... Well, not a couple. A, [00:04:00] a male client who came to my office, and they were in their 20s, and they haven't been on a date at all. And so the relationship, maybe they as people are not toxic, but by not taking care of the relationship itself, the whole atmosphere became toxic.
When children consume the entire marriage, day and night, bre- breastfeeding, not working, exhausted, frustrated about the partner who is working all the time trying to provide for the family, and not having conversations in general about topics that bother. That could be money, that could be sex, that could be time alone, speaking up when it feels uncomfortable, even having therapy session if it doesn't feel comfortable to be in the room with someone who is supposedly supposed to love- Yeah
the other person, but it, it feels... I had couples who came to my... Or A female from, uh, China, she [00:05:00] didn't know for 20 years what the financial picture looks like at all.
Kerry McAvoy: Mm-hmm.
Diana Romanov: For the first time, we had to do subpoena, discovery. The other side was a doctor, so we couldn't get anything. We had to file a motion to compel, to sub- I mean, it was a big mess.
So getting into the dark side of things that feel uncomfortable in the relationship is essential.
Kerry McAvoy: I agree. I agree, and I feel like what we do is we handle it the same but for different reasons. For example, when we first meet somebody, I'm thinking even myself, you may not know, but I was- had a long-term relationship, was widowed, and then got into a second relationship that was extremely dangerous.
It wasn't just toxic, it was dangerous. And what I did in both of those relationships is in the beginning, I kept thinking, "Well, we'll- I'm gonna let this go because when they get to know me and they love me, this won't happen." You end up thinking that, you know what I'm saying? That love's going to change- Oh my God,
Diana Romanov: I've been there too, yes.
Kerry McAvoy: [00:06:00] Yeah. Well, love's gonna change the relationship and make this person kinder or ni- we don't realize, just the example you gave about that person in that date behaving poorly, that that was soon gonna be you. But how often we naively think that because they have a special relationship with you, they're gonna treat you different instead of you seeing that as, oh no, this is a warning.
This is about to be you And then when we get, yeah, and then we get into the relationship, a lot of times for, at least for me, I didn't talk about those topics because it felt either I was scared of the reaction or I felt too embarrassed about the, the situation that I did, just didn't wanna bring it up.
I know for me, for example, money is super difficult to talk about. Like, for me to, to say I was even thinking of prenup. For me even to have wanted a prenup feels selfish. Like, how dare I think that I'm entitled to that? But we don't realize that when we don't do those things, how vulnerable we make ourselves down the road.
Diana Romanov: And granted, when, when we get older, we already [00:07:00] had one divorce or second divorce, and we have children, we know how things play out if we don't protect our assets, and usually when meeting the other side, they have experienced similar situation and have been burned. And prenup doesn't mean excluding someone.
Mm-hmm. It doesn't... It, it means setting boundaries that both people can agree to. For example, assets in California earned before marriage and accumulated before marriage are considered separate property anyway. It just creates a certain protection to say, "Well, even if I buy this home in my name and you live in it, you still don't get more than Mars than, or any claim in that home."
So that would be wise to consider discussing, and then- Right ... by w- by way of reacting, by way how the other person is responding, and if they feel entitled to everything that was accumulated before them, that's also telling.
Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. [00:08:00] I think even my fear of bringing some of those topics up was telling. That already said to me there's a lack of safety in this relationship, that I can't bring these issues up in a way that I believe is comfortable.
You know, we tend to think, "Oh, it's because I'm really shy," or, "I feel awkward." No, there's something happening between you and the other person that's creating a state of alarm that makes those topics off, like, taboo or not okay in some way.
Diana Romanov: And great that you were aware of that. Yeah. Some people are just brushing it off.
Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And what I find, and it sounds like you do, too, then, then when we ignore those things, later they come back and we pay for them. You know, if you didn't talk-
Diana Romanov: Of course. Yes. Yeah,
Kerry McAvoy: yeah.
Diana Romanov: If someone criticizes in closed rooms and then later criticizes at a party, it eats away from confidence, and it's easy to ignore.
Say, "Oh, well, they were just, you know, they just had couple drinks." No, no, no. It, it escalates. It's like a [00:09:00] snowball. Next thing you know, they will criticize you in bigger things, and that's how some people tend to draw confidence from criticizing others by feeling bigger than their partner, which is another toxic sign not to ignore- Yeah
because it comes back. I had, I had experience that with friends. When someone drops little things, and I noticed, even now I have noticed where I, I, I tell to myself, "Well, maybe she didn't mean that," or, or-
Kerry McAvoy: Hmm ... "
Diana Romanov: Well..." And then it snowballs, and then it hurts really bad. So ignoring it has a price.
Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, I even think the same with gossip.
If somebody's gossiping about other people, don't think that you're, you have the special privilege of being the person who's not gossiped about.
Diana Romanov: Oh, yes.
Kerry McAvoy: They're gossiping about everybody, you included.
Diana Romanov: Absolutely. People show up everywhere the way they are. There's no special treatment anywhere. [00:10:00] If someone is gossiping, if someone is stealing, if someone...
For example, I would... If, let's say, a woman has a relationship with a married man, and that married man leaves the, his wife and marries this woman, I have seen examples where then either he or she does the same thing to each other. It's in the core of personality to be a certain way.
Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
So one of the things, other things that I see people extremely uncomfortable with is conflict, and this is something that you deal with day in and day out, in fact, it's your whole practice, is conflict. Oh,
Diana Romanov: gosh.
Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, so kind of define the types of people you see and how they handle conflict differently.
Like, for example, I hate conflict. I'm very conflict avoidant. It just intimidate... In fact, I wouldn't want your job. I'd find it, it would give me a headache at the end of every single day. But then there are other people that almost kind of, like, are energized by it, like they wake up, like they get excited.
It [00:11:00] really, really, like, motivates them. So kind of describe how you see people handling conflict and what you think it reveals about them as a person.
Diana Romanov: Well, first of all, I start with myself. I have been conflict avoidant out of safety reason for my entire childhood. Mm. And then the pendulum went the opposite way So I realized that it didn't work for me, and when I first stood up for my prenup and negotiated it, I realized, huh, I can use this skill for my clients.
And so when I have my clients coming into my office, and let's say they negotiate a prenup, and then the first thing I hear if I'm on this, on the reviewing side of the prenup, "Oh, I don't need the money. I'm just marrying for love." And, you know, the, uh, just very naive line of... I'm not saying it condescending because I have been there.
Yeah. But also I'm noticing how it comes out later when this [00:12:00] very person who said that at the beginning then has three children who are living and, and then let's say that spouse found someone younger and leaves, and that person who is left with three children, could be a woman or a man, then is not able to provide for their home, for basic needs because they waved away all the spousal support, all the assets, supported the career.
And so what I, what I tell people like that at the beginning of our conversation is, "Take yourself out of this completely. It's not about you. It's about the future. How will you feel if your child will tell, 'Actually, you have such a small apartment, and you cannot afford to drive me because you don't even have a car.
I'd rather spend time with the other parent because they have a swimming pool and, and they have fun toys.' How, how will you feel? Will that feel right to you? If so, then sure, wave away. But [00:13:00] if not," and usually it's not, "then let's negotiate because that's what you hired me for." And then if they decide to wave away, that's on them to later maybe not stop their career, maybe not to give all in because that's what we discuss what the consequence is.
So people who avoid conflict, they pay 100X later.
Kerry McAvoy: Mm.
Diana Romanov: That conflict is just a way of avoiding a symptom, but the actual problem is underneath that will come out because repressing the need is, is not eliminating it. It just explodes at some point. No person can just be completely needless. They, they have...
If they're avoiding conflict, uh, there is a saying, "What you resist, persist." Mm-hmm. So avoiding it doesn't mean it's gonna go away. That's- Just means it comes back later harder.
Kerry McAvoy: Wow, that's a really good point. You're right. So [00:14:00] you said you're conflict avoidant yourself, and yet you, you negotiated your own prenup.
What was that like for you?
Diana Romanov: You know when-- I don't know if you had a puppy, but when you have a puppy and you drag them through the street and they're like this, that, that was me and my prenup. So I remember feeling I was negotiating a prenup against five lawyers by myself, a huge trust fund company, 30 countries, multimillion-dollar deal, and I was so scared at the age of 23.
I thought, "Well, they probably thi-" I was worried about what other people think about me.
Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.
Diana Romanov: And I didn't have the reflection I have now. I thought, "Oh my gosh, they're thinking probably I'm a gold digger." And but the reality is the prenup is a negotiation. It's a contract. So I waive certain rights I just faked it until I make it.
I ag- [00:15:00] against all odds, I was sitting there shaking, but speaking my truth and negotiated it. And then through the ex... It's like first workout, right? When, when someone is- does a workout, the muscle is very weak. So I was doing it once, then another time, then another time, and eventually my arm became so strong that I was able to, to do more negotiation in different areas of life, not just the prenup.
And now it's a second natural quality that I have to negotiate, and I even see how in the room of, let's say, deposition lasts seven hours, and someone got tired on the other side, and they say, "How about this? We- we're going to cancel this for now, and then we reschedule it." And it's 5:00 PM, and I know my client is not willing to come back, and, uh, we both are not willing to drive a couple hours back and forth.
So I stand my ground, and I see how it affects everyone. People [00:16:00] are not used to hardcore no sometimes, but it feels off when I say things where everyone else is uncomfortable. But then people catch up. They're like- Yeah ... "Oh, oh, oh, oh, okay. Oh, well, let's take a break." And then they look up the research and figure out, actually, you cannot do that, and then we continue for a couple more hours, and that's it.
Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. And there's an assumption that I used to make that I've had to really change, and I have a feeling you've seen it too. And that is, I used to think that being nice and compassionate, self-sacrificing, was going to yield self-sacrifice in the other person, that they would be touched by my compassion and then be moved to be compassionate back to me in response.
Mm-hmm. But that's not what happens. And most often what happens, I think, and I'd love to know if you saw it as well or see it as well, is that the other person then says, well, they're willing to give up. That's kind of pathetic, and I actually see it as worthy of disrespect, so I'm [00:17:00] gonna worsen my treatment of the individual because they're of their weakness.
Do you agree with that? Is that what you see as well?
Diana Romanov: Yes. As a child, I was raised to be a pleaser. Mm. Please and appease everyone at my own expense. Everyone needs were coming first. And again, the pendulum went the other way. And I realized that the more I did that, the less I was respected- Yeah
acknowledged. And so when I shifted that paradigm, and I put myself equally, equally, I'm not saying more, higher, better, but equally, my needs are equally as important as someone else's needs, and I articulate it, don't swallow it, don't shy away from it, even if it feels odd, and even if delivery is not always great Even if it means to be a little bit rough, uh, but then it, it's like a diamond.
I practice to shine through polishing my angles. So at the [00:18:00] beginning it came off odd, and now it's, it's very natural-
Kerry McAvoy: Mm-hmm ...
Diana Romanov: with a smile.
Kerry McAvoy: It's hard though because part of that, and I think this is something that's more unique to women, is that we have to tolerate being seen as bitchy
Diana Romanov: And I see it as a compliment now, nowadays.
Kerry McAvoy: Do you? Oh, how'd you get there to where it felt, where it feels more like a compliment these days?
Diana Romanov: Well, I, I observed different types of women and I realized why this type of women gets the type of men I like, and I get this Putin-like alpha males who dictate my life. Oh. And I realized because when I went to this class about voice control, tone, she said, "The way you talk has a child tone, and then you attract a certain dominant type of man."
So when I changed the way I talk, the way I walk, the way I handle things, I started to attract more equal.
Kerry McAvoy: Fascinating. I, yeah, you're making me think about like, huh, I wonder how [00:19:00]I come off. I think I come off, tend to come off as an expert. I mean, definitely knowledgeable, and so I don't, I don't, yeah. But, but what happened to me that I, why I attracted that really dangerous person is I was widowed and recently widowed, and I put it on my profile- Hmm
which made me a target for some- He actually was after the life insurance. It was a marriage scam.
Diana Romanov: Oh, gee.
Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, I know. And it was, yeah, it was very scary. Very, very scary because it wasn't about love. It was about predation from the very get-go, you know, that he'd been searching, fil- He told me on the first date that he was searching for widows.
Now, me and my psychologist brain thought, "Oh, he's trying to research and understand a widow's plight." No, no, no, no, what he was telling me, he was filtering for widows on the dating site.
Diana Romanov: And why was he doing that?
Kerry McAvoy: For life insurance. He wanted the benefit from the, the widow's possible payoff from their husband's death.
Diana Romanov: And did you ask him at, on the first date why was he searching [00:20:00] for widow women?
Kerry McAvoy: No, 'cause I heard it wrong. I heard it as him trying to understand me. I didn't realize he was actually revealing that he was, it was a predatory behavior. I didn't realize that.
Diana Romanov: Yeah, that's interesting how we are also trained to see the best and the good- Yeah
in the people without asking them and seeking for, I mean, they can lie too, but still.
Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, he told me though, he's a, he's a psychopath. He told me- Oh, yeah ... that he was very used to people lying, and he was watching and testing people to see if they're lying. And again, I didn't think. I thought, "Oh, I'm sure I passed because I'm a very truthful person."
But I should have asked, this is a question I should have asked, why would he need to have this skill? What, what's happening in his life that's caused him to be that suspicious? I don't think he was paranoid. I think he was appropriately suspicious, that he was that suspicious of other people, and that I didn't realize it was actually a revelation of his character that he was that deceptive.
Diana Romanov: He was projecting his own quality- Yes ... on other people.
Kerry McAvoy: Yes. [00:21:00] He actually had a, he was living a double life. He had many, many relationships going on at the same time. I had no clue. Didn't know until we were, after we were married that I was one of many women.
Diana Romanov: Huh.
Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.
Yeah, it, it, it is interesting how we t- our, almost our egocentricity, the fact that we place ourselves at the center of the world, and we assume so much about, we s- we project that onto other people.
We don't realize how much we miss in those initial interactions that are very revealing. You know, just like go back to your example of that person who treated that staff so rudely. You know, he revealed in that moment that he is casual and disregards other people in a very insensitive way. And here I'm was, you know, missed the, I was missing somebody that was extr- extraordinarily deceptive and was watching out to see if he could pick up who was deceptive around him.
Diana Romanov: I remember my therapist once said that children of abuse or neglect, they tend to live in, in a world that they create in their [00:22:00] mind, and when they grow up, they create this puzzle, and then all they need is a face to that puzzle, so they project qualities, good qualities, in this wonderful world that feels safe, and the problem, they don't see the, what's actually is going on.
Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. So when you meet someone in a room, especially when you see the couple dynamic, what are some insights that you get about that person, particularly around conflict, as you're... Like, whose tends to, divorces tend to go better because of the way they handle conflict versus those who tend to go really poorly because of the way they handle conflict?
Diana Romanov: I feel the more people resist the reality, the more expensive emotionally, financially, mentally it becomes. So-
Kerry McAvoy: That's po- I mean, wow. Resist the reality. That- Yeah
Diana Romanov: And I can break it down in examples where a [00:23:00] divorce cost 10X, not double X, 10X, and it becomes borderline mental disorder. So I would like to exclude people who are not mentally well, but let's say people who are hurt and going through divorce, and let's say they don't want the divorce.
They would like to stay married. So everything they do is against their own interests. And then when they catch up with the fact that it's over, they already gave up 70% of their estate-
Kerry McAvoy: Mm. -
Diana Romanov: hoping that this will please the other person and think to come back or get back. That's just one example. Another example is when they're so spiteful that they're willing to do anything and everything to hurt the other person, using the child, using money, using discovery, abuse discovery, send-- I have a case where they're going through [00:24:00] divorce since 2019, and wife joined 13 different entities, people into the process, and subpoenaing, deposing.
And the reality is it's, there is not that much, but the spitefulness and regret and sadness because the other person left is so overwhelming that some people can spend million dollars to fight each other on little things like post-separation claims, different evaluation dates. It's mathematically not worth it.
Emotionally blinding.
Kerry McAvoy: Yeah. I've seen so many-- Because I work with an abuse community ex- pretty exclusively, I've seen so many cases in where the ex is just been abusive in the post-separation period, and becomes almost like creating a conflict after conflict over everything, and to the point that the person [00:25:00] feels really out of control, and like they're being dragged constantly through another hearing, and then another motion.
How do you suggest someone stop that when you're the one that it's happening to, when you're the one being abused that way?
Diana Romanov: So if I'm representing someone who is being abused, I create a strategy. First strategy is declare the other person a vexatious litigant, which means they cannot just file things without getting approval from the superior judge.
It requires them to file and lose five things, five motions, five cases, not small claims, within the last seven years. That's one approach.
Kerry McAvoy: Okay.
Diana Romanov: Second approach is to seek sanction. Actually, last week I got $30,000 in attorney's fees and sanctions by using their own tactic against them. Welcome [00:26:00] it, download all the emails they sent, you know, everything they send becomes a record, and then file a motion and say, "Look what we had to deal with for the last one year.
We have tried, we have responded, we had offered mediation, and then they would turn around, change their mind, and, and do this thing." And judges don't appreciate that. They gladly put a stop to it because it drains judicial system, takes time from everyone, and it was granted on a tentative ruling, so meaning- That's awesome
we didn't even have to go to court.
Kerry McAvoy: Yeah, that's really awesome. And the fact that this is such a frequent problem is that there are difficult people in the relationship, but it becomes often even worse when the relationship's over. Becomes almost like a vendetta to try to destroy their, their partner.
Diana Romanov: You know what I did? In order to see... I, I didn't do it on purpose, but I remember I broke up with my now husband twice, [00:27:00] and I saw... I didn't talk to him for four months, and I saw how he would act. Now I think it was a test. How people act when they separate is who they really are.
Kerry McAvoy: Mm. Mm.
Diana Romanov: How do they act in a conflict when it doesn't go their way?
Kerry McAvoy: Yeah.
Diana Romanov: Are they vindictive? Are they regretful? Are they apologetic? It's very telling, too.
Kerry McAvoy: It is. You learn a whole lot about them, don't you?
Diana Romanov: Yeah.
Kerry McAvoy: Apparently, your guy passed.
Diana Romanov: He passed. He was very regretful and sad and, but not sto- stalking kind of sad. So it was great to see. I knew he's a good person, but it was good to see in action.
Kerry McAvoy: That's cool. That's really cool.
Diana Romanov: Well, I- Not on purpose. Not on purpose.
Kerry McAvoy: No, I hear that. I hear you didn't do like, "Let's just torture him a little bit." No, I hear you didn't do that. But I would love to jump over to the podcast extra and talk about this, 'cause it, it was a thought I had as I was listening to you talk about the excessive litigation that happens with some people.
[00:28:00] What happens when you can tell your own attorney doesn't like you? 'Cause when I... Here's, 'cause here's the thought I have, and we're gonna t- So we'll follow this up in the podcast extra. But I have seen clients where I can tell just by the way that they, the, uh, the interactions, the way they're de- describing, that this person is really not in their corner, that they almost maybe don't h- I, ha- I don't know.
There's something going wrong in the way that they're being represented. So I'd love to, like, let's talk about what to do if you think that's happening to you. But how can people find out more about you, more about your YouTube page? Where should they go?
Diana Romanov: When they type in Google, "Divorce Like a Boss," they can find my book in four versions on Amazon.
They can find my YouTube with over probably now 600 videos to watch where I explain California law, and each YouTube description has contact information, how to schedule an appointment, or romanovlaw.com is how [00:29:00] people can find me.
Kerry McAvoy: Well, thank you so much, Diana. I really appreciate this. This has been a wonderful
conversation.
Diana Romanov: Thank you.
Kerry McAvoy: Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube? You can find me @kerrymcdavoyphd, or you can learn more about me and my resources, such as the Toxic Free Relationship Club at kerrymcavoyphd.com. And I'll see you back here next week.