Feeling Confused? How Toxic People Keep Us Baffled and Stuck

Have you noticed that when you’re finally ready to leave, your toxic or narcissistic partner suddenly does something amazing? Do they keep you off balance and confused about the state of the relationship?

In this episode, Lisa Sonni joins me to discuss how narcissists and other toxic people use emotional manipulation to keep their partners and loved ones psychologically stuck in a bad relationship.

And, in this week’s Podcast Extra, Lisa and I discuss one listener’s struggles to leave. Learn what helpful suggestions and strategies we suggest to help her break free. Get immediate access this newsletter with the podcast extra here: substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D., a mental health specialist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships, deconstructing narcissism, and understanding various other mental health-related issues. Her memoir, Love You More: The Harrowing Tale of Lies, Sex Addiction, & Double Cross, gives an uncensored glimpse into the dynamics of narcissistic abuse.

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Transcript

Ep. 90 Feeling Confused? How Toxic People Keep Us Baffled and Stuck

Kerry: [00:00:00] Toxic and narcissistic relationships create intense confusion, making it extremely difficult to know whether you should stay or leave. In this episode, Lisa Sunny joins me to talk about how to break through the ambivalence so you can figure out your next best decision.

Lisa, the end of a relationship, I find to be one of the most difficult situations because I went back and forth so many times within my own head, must have been thousands of times, maybe even hundreds of times daily. But then we get this push and pull back from our partner as well, who at times they want it to be over with, and then other times they don't want it to be over with.

What did you experience regarding this, and have you seen much of this?

Lisa: I've seen it non-stop. Now, in my personal experience, it was very like, I'm leaving because you're not enough, and then it flipped into, How dare you leave? How dare you let me leave? I know that when he left, he wanted me to [00:01:00] beg him to stay.

And to be fair, I kind of did and kind of didn't, I don't know about Beg, but I definitely wanted the relationship to continue, but only on the plan that he'd do better, so he was promising to do better, and we were working on things, but we weren't really working on things at all, and I was super confused about whether or not I wanted to stay, or leave, or what made sense.

Especially based on his behavior. I was so confused by his behavior.

Kerry: I was too. So what confused you about his behavior? And I'd like to see if it's similar to the confusion I

Lisa: felt. His words didn't match his actions. I mean, honestly, it was kind of that simple. It was like, I love you, and yet it didn't feel like that.

I love you, but I felt like he was seeing someone else. And it did turn out that he was. It didn't make sense to me. Like, if you love me, then why wouldn't we be working on things? If you love me, then why wasn't couples counseling going better? If you love me, why did you leave and work on things apart?

Even though I agreed to that, it made sense to me that we were apart. It was also, frankly, on the advice of a therapist to be apart while working on [00:02:00] things. Focus on the individual issues before we come back or work on our issues together as a couple. But it was the hot and cold. I'm trying so hard and then he disappears for days, and I miss you so much, but then wouldn't call, or I want to be with you, and then I would see or hear that he was talking about how he was only saying these things for the kids.

Like, make it make sense. I was so confused, but I was holding on to hope and promises.

Kerry: Did you know that it didn't make sense? I mean, were you, like, overtly aware of this is crazy making, this is not lining up? Because I didn't put that together. No.

Lisa: I was unaware how confused I was, despite being in a very obvious state of confusion, and I think that's the hardest part, is like, it's confusing, but the confusion is confusing, and you want to make sense of it, and you kind of can't, but you don't even recognize it.

It's so hard when you're in it, you really don't recognize how confusing it is, you're sort of trying to explain it to people, you explain how confusing it is, and people are like, yeah. That's correct, [00:03:00] it is confusing, but it's like you're trying to make sense of it just by talking about it, and you just can't.

But I have come to realize, I think the confusion is on purpose. I think it's very targeted. They want you to be confused. Because as long as you're confused, you're trying to explain to them why you're confused. And they're gaslighting you, telling you, you have no reason to be confused. I told you I love you.

I told you I want to be with you. But their actions don't make sense. And then they just dismiss their actions.

Kerry: I remember that feeling as well, Lisa. I really didn't know it was true. And I had realized at the time how many people in my life give mixed messages. That that's just a common problem in relationships.

That people will say, for example, how many times if you've had a friend, Oh, it's been so long, I really miss you, we should get together. And then nothing happens. And then you're thinking, yeah, we should. And then maybe you're like, really did miss them. And you're thinking about, wow, we should do something.

So you make the effort. And then they either like, don't really make the effort back. Or maybe you think they're going to make an effort. And then they don't make an effort. So we live with a lot of [00:04:00] ambiguity and relationships. And I don't think most of us realize it. I think it primes us for these relationships.

Because this is something I think toxic and narcissistic people lean into, is they understand, I don't even know if it's unconscious or conscious, to me it doesn't really actually matter, but they understand the disconnect between what they do and what we think they're doing, what they do and what they say they're doing, and we tend to believe what they say over what they're doing, although what they're doing really crushes us.

So yeah, I heard things like mine with that night fall asleep, hold me in his arms and say, I've never loved anybody the way I love you and stuff like that, or I've never worked harder than I have worked in this relationship and that I would believe it would like buy more time. He'd buy another few days or maybe another, I don't know, but it would lead me to think, Oh, I literally, it felt like I was testing the direction of the wind constantly.

Is it working? Is he not working? Is it going to make it today? Or is it not going to make it? Should we? Because the other thing that happens is we have to make these big, long term [00:05:00] decisions. Like, I know you did too. Like, where do you send the kids to school? Do you buy another house? Do you get a car with a car payment on it?

All these big things that you know that The more that you get embedded with this individual, the messier stuff gets, so you kind of hesitate on these decisions, and then suddenly you get some kind of reassurance, so you go ahead and make a big decision, and then on the other side, you're like, why did I do that?

Because now it's worse, now getting out of it is worse than it was before. Yep,

Lisa: I see people do it too, where, you know, after we get married, Things will get better, or, I mean, even in my comment section the other day, this woman was describing her relationship with her fiancé, like, oh, I, you know, this happens in my relationship, in the context of whatever that was going on in the video, but like, he's your fiancé, and this is happening, you're about to take a huge step, are you not evaluating the relationship?

Meanwhile, I say that so judgmentally. Meanwhile, hello to the rest of us who've all made these decisions based on that. I'm sure that in, in this woman's context, he's telling her one thing and doing another thing. And she's literally pointing [00:06:00] out how she's confused. And, and we're all confused. I see this confusion constantly.

And you even hear some of these self aware narcissists talk about how that confusion. Is on purpose. They know you end up going back to them and sort of like, you know, you say this and then you do that. And then they rationalize it like we're seeking out them, giving us a reason why it doesn't match. And I think so much of it is just arbitrary.

I've heard you once say that in the moment they mean it when they say something, they might mean it maybe in that moment. But as soon as their opinion changes, as soon as something Yeah. That something else that they want doesn't go with that anymore. They'll change it. And then that never happened. They never made that promise.

It doesn't matter. They didn't lie. They meant it at the time and now they don't. It's just that simple to them.

Kerry: Yeah, because what we get really confused about is that they run on state driven decisions versus, I think, I don't know what the right word for the rest of this is because it's, it's more, maybe for me, it's based on my integrity or [00:07:00] principles.

Like say, for example, you and I right now are doing something together where we're selling something and we want something to sell out by a certain date. We want the final payment by a certain time we make a policy and we say, okay, regardless of how I feel about the policy, the final payment has to be done in by this date.

And then we based everything around that. It's not based on a state of how I feel. It's based on a policy. Policy, a principle, or an integrity, or a moral, or whatever. I think what happens with toxic and narcissistic people is like, in the moment, Oh, well, you know, I just didn't feel like it, or I really wanted to, but something happened, or they like, literally like pull something out of the air that may be true in that moment, like, Well, I was confused, and I didn't know what to do, so that's why I didn't do anything at all, or they'll say, Well, I know I made a really dumb decision.

I was in a bad space or I had too much to drink or I overslept or somebody at work needed something from me. They like literally pull something out that fits for that moment. But a minute that moment changes, they don't remember it because they're not in that place anymore. It's not based on a policy, not based [00:08:00] on integrity, not based on a principle.

It's just based on how they feel. And it's the wind changes and your opinion changes. Yeah, and they don't remember it because here's the dieting line principle of all of it is they want what they want when they want it. Yeah. Now, maybe they don't want to break the relationship up in that moment. They're not ready.

Maybe they think, Oh, shoot, I don't know where I'd go stay or I don't have any money or I just lost my job or I'm not getting paid enough. They'll have some kind of like. Consequence, they know they can't sort of pull out of, so then they, they push back on you to save them, which then they tell you what you want to hear, because that's what they know you want to hear.

So then you save them, and then maybe, you know, two hours later, whatever it was got fixed, and now they're not in the mood, and they're back into that crappy place again. So it's literally on their convenience, and I think that's what we don't understand. We don't get that piece.

Lisa: No, because it doesn't, it's so different than what we experience and how we feel and make decisions, as you said.

But I think one of the kind of, to [00:09:00] me, the way out of it was really starting to recognize the patterns. Abuse cycles always follow a pattern, right? When they, when they're kind to you, it's self serving. So what is the self interest? It keeping you, and I think that another issue is that we tell ourselves they want to keep us because they love us, because they care about us so much.

They want to keep us because we are a good victim, because we are able to be controlled because we're compliant or submissive. But if you actually look at their behavior, you kind of look past the second chances, like Every time you've given them a second chance, I'm sure it's 500 chances. Did it ever actually lead to genuine, lasting change?

Kerry:No, of course not. No, but I also want to say the other motivator is that they want stabilization in their life. They're not stable. Let's just admit it. Their life is a chaotic, confusing mess. They usually go bankrupt. They often have addiction problems. They tend to often have problems keeping a job. They burn through relationships.

They tend to stay Their life is a [00:10:00] chaotic mess. They don't make payments. I mean, it's just, it's a mess. You and I, the people they bring into their lives, provide stability. We often help keep a house over their head. We often give them schedule, predictability, all of this stuff. I don't know how many times of people I've met who, Hope with even getting a job or keeping a job or keeping them in close to have the right.

I mean, all the stuff that just makes life go better. So when they end up facing the possibility of losing you, they know their loses stability of you and they're not ready for that. And until they get ready, then they're typically not ready to discard. But you're right. We end up thinking, Oh, they love me because they need me.

No, they need you. It doesn't mean they love you.

Lisa: Yeah. Not need in the way that I think we, like I need, I love. We see it so emotionally and they just don't. It's just they don't share those feelings. But, to me, it's on purpose. The way that they do this is so purposeful. Whether it's conscious or unconscious, it doesn't really matter.

At the end of the day, they know [00:11:00] that they're hurting you because you're telling them, This hurts me. You're telling them, I'm confused. They're not doing anything to really clear that up. If anything, They're doing more things to maintain the confusion. They continue not letting their words match their actions.

If he's cheating on you, he doesn't love you. But he'll tell you he has a problem or he'll make up some excuse, some reason that he, he was weak, he was drunk, he, whatever. But at the end of the day, it's a choice. And abusiveness is a choice, which is also really hard. It's also a choice to tell someone that you're going to do better.

And then not, I'm trying. I promise I'll be better. I promise this, that, and the next thing, and we believe them because we want to, partially, and it seems like they're doing it. Sometimes they even have some actions and behaviors that seem like it. To me, that's feigned accountability because I don't think they're really doing it, but.

I see it a lot in my, in my coaching practice and in my comment sections, right? But he's trying, but he's really trying. How can I tell?

Kerry: Oh, I know. I know. And you know, and I want to give a gender [00:12:00] neutral experience. I know this is something a lot of men experience with the narcissistic women is they overspend a budget.

And they'll say why did you go on that shopping spree? We couldn't afford it. Remember, we're saving up for a mortgage. And next thing you know, they get out and maybe they go out with their girlfriends and they overspend again. So yeah, it happens on both sides. And I agree. We end up being confused by what they say and really want that because we have an investment in the relationship.

We don't realize they don't have an investment in the relationship. They haven't an investment in themselves, not the relationship. But we get really, really confused about that. And I think for me, Lisa, the biggest thing that helped me a lot was to realize that I have to prioritize myself before the relationship, that a healthy relationship is based on a healthy person.

I used to think that if the relationship is healthy, then I was healthy. No, I need to be healthy. And then that makes the relationship healthy. But that's a very different way of viewing this because it shifts the priorities in a new direction that felt very foreign to me. Was that a new way of thinking about it [00:13:00] for you as well?

Lisa: Absolutely. I definitely felt like we were a unit. So, if he was unhealthy, then we were unhealthy, and that mattered to me. I'm invested in this relationship. I want it to work out. So, it was, it really was like an us against the world, in the worst possible way, because when he was down, we were down, and that's my responsibility, me to help him.

He, he preyed on that, making me feel responsible for his actions, his behaviors, and shifting it always onto me, right? I wouldn't be doing this if it weren't for you. And that leads you to be confused, because How do my behaviors make you do, but they're so good at convincing you that your behavior is what's driving it ultimately.

So many of them blame shift almost beautifully, you know, I'd be impressed if it weren't so horrifically awful the way that they do that.

Kerry: Yeah, no, you're right. They do. I'll never forget that conversation when I found out he'd been in contact with his girlfriend. You know, they were talking about how they were cheating and how it was so [00:14:00] unacceptable, but they had to understand how much they loved each other.

And I just looked at him horrified thinking, what are you saying? This doesn't even make sense. It's so hurtful and I know that if I said this to you that I'd be very afraid for my life here because that's the amount of rage that you would have for me doing this to you. And he just looked at me and said, 'You just have to accept the fact that I'm a sex addict. That's up to you.' Like, me. It's my job to accept that you're a cheater? That you somehow can't be faithful? That's my problem, not a you problem. It's my problem. But it's amazing how they're the victim—they can't help themselves. They're doing the very best that they can. And just like that, they don't know why everything just keeps falling apart around them.

And yeah, but God forbid that you let things fall apart around you—that's not going to work that way. Yeah, the ambivalence nearly tore me up. Honestly, this was the most agonizing part of the relationship. I'm a quick decision-maker anyway; when I walk into a store, I figure out relatively fast what I want and what I'm going to do with it.

But for me to be able to not make this decision—and I also knew that so many other [00:15:00] decisions were contingent on it—it was like my life stopped because I couldn't make a decision. I just wanted a decision so I could figure out how to move forward with life. So how did you start to resolve the ambivalence?

Lisa: Honestly, I feel like in many ways I had kind of an epiphany. Something happened where I got a phone call from the police, and it allowed me to realize that he was cheating. And, you know, long story, but that’s how I found out he was cheating—through the police. That was a pivotal moment for me because it was like, I keep telling myself that he's not, and even though every fiber of my being believes that he is, and I feel like I have plenty of evidence and should have absolutely known, I allowed him to constantly tell me he wasn't, he wasn't, he wasn't, and then I got slapped with the reality.

But it absolutely was what I thought it was, and in that moment, I just made a decision to stop. To stop caring, to stop feeling, to stop everything. Now, it’s not that easy—you don’t just poof, stop. But it was a [00:16:00] decision that I made to learn how to stop. And I started making a list. You hear a lot of people say, 'Make a list of all the things he did to you.'

The difference in my list is that I also added the impact of how it impacted me. Like, cheating? Okay, you know, I'm upset. No, I'm betrayed. I am shattered. I am destroyed. What else does he do? He's constantly gaslighting me. He's making me feel confused. His words don't match his actions. What are his actions? And I would start writing these things down.

It was like a list of reasons why I needed to leave. And every time I felt like I was getting pulled back in, I'd go back to the list and think, 'But he's cheating.' And all the while, I have him still begging, I have his mother begging, and telling me, 'Don’t worry, he wants you. I promise you, you’re his main.'

As if I'm supposed to be happy that I'm the main thing he loves—that, first of all, isn't true, and secondly, it's sad that that’s the definition of what a main thing is anyway. But I was like, 'I’m done. I’m done falling for it. I’m done [00:17:00] believing it.' And I brought myself back into therapy and started working with someone who was absolutely amazing.

What really helped me was having a qualified therapist, and you know how I feel about therapists who are qualified and understand—and I don’t mean their education; I mean their choice to know about domestic violence, abuse, and trauma bonds. It’s not even about narcissism, really, but you can get a lot of help from someone who gets it. I think that’s where coaching can help, because we have more lived experience and are a little more targeted, but whether it’s therapy, coaching, someone who gets it and is qualified—if you have access to that, when is it ever helpful?

It saved me.

Kerry: Yeah, I have to say that there were two things that kind of saved me, too. And I had what you described as a breaking point. I love it. Dr. Ramani references this, and I just think it’s great—a breaking point moment. I remember that moment clearly. I already knew he'd been cheating from the get-go of the relationship because I found out on our honeymoon that he'd been cheating. But it was when I discovered that he was also betraying me financially. It wasn't [00:18:00] just limited to sex and loyalty; it was also at the very level of my business, my family, my legacy—everything about me. He was betraying me.

When I realized that, I understood this person has never been on my side. There is no bottom here. He's willing to do anything to betray me. I somehow thought, 'Well, he will betray me to this level, but he's not going to betray me over here.' And I discovered, no, he's betraying you at every possible level. For me, it was like something literally clicked; it just shifted. It was like, 'Okay, I got to be about myself. This is not a person who's about me at all.' So I stepped up and began to think about myself.

But prior to that moment, I had found some community support—some online groups that were just really amazing. It was so helpful to be able to say to people, 'This is happening,' and have people say, 'I get it,' and for me to say, 'I don't know what I'm going to do about it,' and they'd say, 'Yeah, I remember that place; I’m there with you.' That created so much permission, I guess—permission to be confused. But, even better, I felt so much shame.

I couldn’t talk about this ambivalence. That was what really locked me up and kept me a prisoner—feeling like I had no safe place to say this because most people look at you and say, 'Just see; make a decision. Yes or no.' Like, 'No, I can't make a decision. I don't know what the right decision is.' I didn't want to make any decision because I didn't want my life to be upset. And I did have feelings for this person; as much as I hated them, I also loved them. So it felt great to have the space to sit in that, to talk about it, and not feel so much shame or pressure, which was what I was getting from everybody—either blame, shame, or pressure.

Lisa: Yeah, the pressure was unbelievable. And in my case, I was putting a lot of that pressure on myself, but it was just like subtle comments from people that would make it sound so obvious: 'Why don’t you just leave?' Even though in my life, I didn’t have a lot of people shaming me in that [00:20:00] way, it was still that feeling that I got.

For me, I visualized myself standing in a forest with three paths in front of me, and they’re all dark, scary, awful paths. So there’s no good choice here; they all suck. And I think that’s what makes it hard—do you take this path, that path, or the other path, when every option is terrible? There’s a really bad side to every decision you might make. It’s not a matter of even making a pros and cons list; it’s so far past that. The confusion doesn’t even let you understand what the best decision could possibly be.

The confusion makes it impossible to see.

Kerry: Did you feel terror? Because I felt terror looking at those three options. And I know the three options you’re talking about—I had the three options, too. But I felt like, 'This is going to be terrible if I do this, terrifying if I do that, and terrifying if I do the other.' Lisa, I don’t feel terror much in my life. I really don’t. My life is pretty safe, pretty comfortable. [00:21:00] There have been only a few times in my life where I really felt like I might be facing the end of myself. And I’m feeling emotional—that was one of them. I felt like I was facing possibly real loss, real threat to myself and to my safety, and he terrorized me. He terrified me. Did you feel that same kind of fear?

Lisa: Absolutely, I did, you know, and I think it was even exacerbated by the fact that there was physical violence in my case. People say 'just leave,' when we know that’s the most dangerous time. And also it sort of implies 'just leave,' as if they let you. I remember a video I made once where I was like, 'Oh, just leave.' So the victim in the skit goes to leave, and the abuser’s like, 'Yeah, no, that’s not happening,' and slams the door shut—you can’t leave. They’ll guilt you, manipulate you, beg you back, or dismiss and discard you in such a way that it triggers all of these abandonment wounds, and then you end up begging them back. Talk about confusing, right?

I knew I needed to leave, and there were parts of me saying, 'No, this is ending. I’m not going down like this. This isn’t going to be over.' I knew I could fix it, but I put it all on me. I bought into the belief that I was responsible for this, that I could fix him, even though he was creating confusion on purpose. That led to my own ambivalence, and I needed this moment. So I’m thankful every day that the police called and told me what they did. And that is really what led to my own moment, and I made a decision that as hard as it was going to be, I was going to learn how to walk away from this person, because, as you said, this person is not for me. He's not looking out for me. He does not have my best interest at heart. He chooses himself at every possible turn.

That is the kind of person who will do this to however many people in every relationship. It will never change. So you absolutely need to let them go.

Kerry: And I had to make this massive [00:23:00] shift where I started to think very carefully about my safety and to create contingencies. I also had to become sneaky, and that's the part I don’t like. And you know me really well—you know I’m the kind of person where what you see is what you get. There's no duplicity in me, no veneer; I mean, it is what it is. But I had to find a way to keep things back from this person, devise plans, and maybe even be a little deceptive myself in order to get an advantage. Because if I was upfront and vulnerable and took risks with this person, they’d devastate me.

They'd either directly harm me or hurt me, or they'd steal from me or do something nefarious and harmful to gain an advantage. And I don’t like that. I don’t like playing like that, but it was the only way through—I had to become better at this than he was.

That was so hard because it’s not how I think about life or anything, actually. It’s [00:24:00] just so foreign to me.

Lisa: That’s so true. I don’t think like that at all. And it was really hard for me because again, I saw us as a unit. And I really had to sever that and realize it’s not selfish to be about yourself. You are literally in a relationship with someone who is all about themselves. But I think even in healthy relationships, we do need to prioritize ourselves. We need to think about ourselves. But an abuser will tell you that’s selfish—how dare you not prioritize us when really you’re prioritizing them.

That’s the goal. It’s just under the mask of doing it for the relationship. But in the meantime, you’re destroying yourself."

Kerry: "I just came across, uh, four different relationship positions that I thought were super powerful. Most of us will assume two of them, but we need to realize that toxic and narcissistic people assume the other two. Most of us lean toward what’s called a collaborative approach, which is 'I win, you win'—whatever we can do so that it’s an advantage for you, but it’s also an advantage for me. Often, a lot of us are willing—I’m willing to let myself lose if I know it’s [00:25:00] a win for you. There may be some things that I know I can afford to give up—maybe my time, maybe some money, or something to benefit you if it comes out ahead. Sometimes I know that you’re also, at times, going to make it where you lose and I win, you know, when there’s this kind of reciprocal nature.

But what happens in these toxic relationships is they prefer either they win and you lose, or they lose and you lose. So it’s all about mutual mass destruction. Yes, mutual mass destruction. Or they’re all about exploitation, and we forget that. We keep thinking that we can come up with an 'I win, you win' scenario. That scenario is not going to happen, and it’s only when we realize that it’s not even on the board for them—that they don’t want that—that we have to start playing the game really differently.

It’s been a fascinating discussion. What I’d like to do now is something a little different. I actually had a real, live conversation this past week while I was on vacation with somebody who’s in a very dangerous situation, wants to leave, and is struggling. So, I’d like to use this [00:26:00] person’s situation as a way to talk about: What if you are confused? What if you’re getting mixed messages? How can you tell what the truth is? And what should be your next steps to get out? We’re going to talk about that in the podcast extra. But thank you so much for joining me today and talking about this very tough topic. It’s so close to both of our hearts."

 Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube? Find me at Kerry McAvoy PhD. And whether you're in or out, Consider leaving or have left a narcissistic relationship. Find community support at my toxic free relationship club.

You can learn about this resource as well as others at Kerry McAvoy, phd. com. And I'll see you back here next week.