Brainwashed & Spellbound: How Narcissistic Abuse is Really a Cult of Two

Have you considered that a narcissistically abusive relationship is actually a cult of two?

Daniella Mestyanek-Young, author of Uncultured and expert in cult dynamics, joins us to discuss the similarities between cult leaders and narcissists.

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Website: Uncultureyourself.com
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Could you be in a coercively controlling relationship? In this week’s podcast extra, Daniella tackles how to wake up to toxic and covert manipulation and control strategies.

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D., a mental health specialist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships, deconstructing narcissism, and understanding various other mental health-related issues. Her memoir, Love You More: The Harrowing Tale of Lies, Sex Addiction, & Double Cross, gives an uncensored glimpse into the dynamics of narcissistic abuse.

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• 15:30 (Cont.) Brainwashed & Spellbound: How Narcissistic Abuse is Really a Cult of Two

Transcript

Kerry: [00:00:00] Have you ever considered how a narcissistically abusive relationship could be a cult of two? Well, today, Daniela Mestyanek, the author of Uncultured, joins me to talk about the similarities between a cult and toxic relationships.

I'm so excited today to have Daniela Mestyanek on. She has a very fascinating background. It comes from an interesting perspective, particularly from a perspective of cults, and she also wrote a book called Uncultured. So, Daniela, why don't you start out by telling us a little bit about yourself, who you are, how did you get interested in cults? And then I can't wait to tie into how you see this related to toxic and narcissistic relationships.

Daniella: Yeah, so thanks so much for having me today. Very excited for this conversation. So I was born in the Children of God. I was born three generations into the Children of God. And in fact, [00:01:00] the Children of God is one of these cults that started in the late '60s, thrived during the '70s.

And they are known for religious prostitution, using prostitution to get members and money, and preaching pedophilia, essentially. So it's considered one of the really dark ones. The way I explain it is he took evangelical Christianity and purity culture about sex and he flipped it. So it was supposed to be free love, but it was forced polyamory.

And then they went from "God is love" and "you show God's love through sex." And then "we also want to show God's love to the children." And so my mom at 13 is married to this old prophet, and at 14 she's pregnant with me by another one of his lieutenants. My dad's older than my grandfather.

So when I was 15, I got away. I got myself kicked out, breaking the big rules, just being trouble, got myself kicked out and landed in Texas, [00:02:00] where I put myself through four years of high school and then four years of college, and then I commissioned into the army, and I was an army intelligence officer. I went to Afghanistan twice, and during my first deployment, I was one of the women that was the first group of women to be put on deliberate ground combat teams in army history, and this kind of led to taking down the combat ban for women and allowing women to serve in whatever role they wanted.

I was also the intelligence officer, which means I was the expert on the bad guy, the other, the people we were fighting. So what happens is I get out of the military and I want to do my own thing. And I've started to write my book and go back to school for organizational psychology. And I started realizing that, like, I think under capitalism, we define good leadership as "makes money," and so everyone is studying these cult-like CEOs of these tech companies and all of my experiences with the bad groups, right, with cults, with the military, with terrorism, counterterrorism.

And I noticed that, like, nobody wanted to talk about [00:03:00] the bad groups, but everybody was happy to use their tactics to learn these cult motivation types of tactics. And so I kind of decided to do my own thing. I call myself the disorganizational psychologist. And I realized like I've been studying cults since I was 22 years old.

I've been reading everything I can find on it. And I was setting out to write my second book, which I'm halfway through writing now called The Culting of America and really try to expand explain to people like these parts of group behavior that make up a cult, but where we can see them around us, because I realized I don't really care about the groups.

I don't know if the groups want to be better or if they can be better under capitalism, but my knowledge can help individuals understand groups that have hurt them in the past, groups that are hurting them now, and groups that might try to hurt them in the future. And so how this for me relates to narcissistic abuse is that [00:04:00] you know, regardless of definition, when we're using the word cult, we're trying to describe when an individual comes under the coercive control of a group.

When an individual is growing up under the coercive control of parents, we call that a single family cult. And then when an individual is under the control of another individual, we call that a one-one cult, right? Or an abusive relationship. And so often, all three of these, whether it's a formal cult leader, whether it's parents or whether it's an abusive partner, very often we believe these people are on the narcissistic spectrum or scale.

And I had that, you know, so in my book Uncultured, I take you from kind of like real cults to the one-one relationship that I fall into when I'm a teenager in college. And then to the army, which is one of our more like everyday organizations that nobody thinks is like bad. I mean, a lot of people think we're bad, but you know, it's so accepted.

And I wanted to show that like this group behavior happens across the board in all of these places.

Kerry: So what's a hallmark [00:05:00] characteristic of a cult? Whether it's a one-on-one or a group, what essential pieces have to be there for it to be considered coercive control and cultish?

Daniella: So I have 10, I have a 10-part definition, which is, sounds complicated to explain, but cults are complicated. And so for me, it's, you have charismatic leadership, which we know is not always just a single person anymore. You have this worldview shift. People think of cults as religious, but it's not a religion. It's a worldview that the cult gives you.

And then you come under this sacred assumption, which is some version of like, we are right, and we are the only ones that are right. The cult then gives you a transcendent mission. Do it for the children, or like, we're saving the world for Jesus before the apocalypse, like Children of God. And then, this mission is so important, that it requires the constant self-sacrifice of the individual.

And this is where I think it starts hurting the individual, right? So constantly told to put the needs of the first, sacrifice yourself, [00:06:00] sacrifice your family. Then comes the isolation. I say these days, I say isolation from or insulation from the world, because we know that we can be in cults, like in our bedrooms these days, thanks to technology.

Distinguishable vernacular, like a language that is very specific to that group, which also works as more isolation. And you have us versus them mentality, right? Cults are not just for something. They have to also be actively against something because that's part of how they keep you in. Number eight is exploitation of labor, which very much ties to the self-sacrifice and cults are always about labor, which is something very important to understand.

Number nine. High entrance and exit costs, you give up a lot when you go in, and you lose a lot when you leave, and exit costs are not just money. And then my last one is, ends justifies the means mentality, which is definitely what I think, you know, we are seeing in America [00:07:00] today, a lot of examples of.

Kerry: Yeah. I see people really rankled, they get upset about the idea that two adults could get into a relationship in which one person falls under the spell or control of another person. And I believe, based on my experience, that there's a form of brainwashing that happens. And I know a lot of people want to call that hogwash and say that we volunteer to be a victim, that we should have been smarter and seen through it.

Can you share more about how that works, that first stage works? I would like to think about it on both ends, on the leader's end, but also on the victim's end. If we just look at one-on-one relationships, what's happening between these two people that make people vulnerable to this type of relationship?

Daniella: Yeah, so first of all I want to address that's what you said about the "you signed up for this," because this is really like a part of victim-blaming that we like to do for people who've survived cults, people who've survived con artists, and people who've survived abusive relationships.

And so anytime we're talking about cults, we hear that, right? Like [00:08:00] you knew what you signed up for. Um, and it's not true, right? We never know what we signed up for, but it's also part of catching you, right? So part of catching you into the cults or into the abusive relationship is love bombing you when you first show up, right?

You are being love bombed, you're being paid all this attention to in a one-on-one relationship. You're usually being very romantically courted, in some way or another. Or even a friend group can be culty and you get pulled in under this one leader and you're being love bombed the whole time, right?

As they're also doing these other things, which is isolating you, never leaving you alone, messing with your sleep, usually in different bodily habits, all of this stuff is going on. We call this identity breaking indoctrination when you're coming into a cult and they are using thought reform on you and conducting the brainwashing, right?

And a lot of people don't even remember how intense it [00:09:00] was. Because they're using so many tactics of like sleep deprivation and not giving you enough food and chanting and hyperventilating and all of these different things, which I just want to give a note that like a lot of cults and even large group awareness trainings like an EST or a landmark.

They use physiological things, and one of those things is hyperventilating. When you hyperventilate for a long time, you start to feel like you're having some kind of otherworldly experience. And we can think of what two people might be doing together that can cause hyperventilation in a one-one relationship.

Right. And now you're feeling like you had this life-changing moment with another person.

Kerry: Right, right, right.

Daniella: You experienced that good love bombing in the beginning, and it was such a high that even as it starts to go away, you're still telling yourself that I can get back there. I just need to work harder. [00:10:00] I just need to do this. I just need to be perfect all of the time. And that is right where the cult wants you. You know, the cult wants you not in your own body, just sort of floating outside, being more or less an automaton, though, people can definitely still, like, engage in the real world without anyone noticing.

But just not letting yourself ever think about it or ask questions. And then also, so I have this list of, like, cult leaders tell you that you're free to leave any time, but they turn around and they keep you isolated, tired, hungry, skinny, pregnant, and busy. I'll make it very difficult for you to leave.

Kerry: It makes sense when you say that because the introduction of sex often is extremely rapid in the narcissistically abusive relationship and that introduction, not only then, like you said, creates hyperventilation, which I'd not thought about that, but are also using your hormonal connection, the bonding connection that happens in those interactions against you, so that you feel this intimacy.

It's [00:11:00] almost a pseudo intimacy that hasn't been earned. It now feels like it's there. It really breaks down your resistance to trust, so that you now feel like, I know this person. This is somebody really dear and intimate to me. I think the other thing that I've noticed, and I'd be curious what you think about this, they're very good at weaponizing, I guess I'm trying to think of a better word to use because I know we use that word a lot, but really creating a sense of fear of loss of belonging.

They're very good at hitting that sense of us needing to feel like we're a part of something bigger than ourselves and in a sense that we want that connectedness, that we're built, we're wired for connectedness, and they quickly create connectedness and then threaten it. Which then makes a greater fear, actually increases the fear of loss of connection as a result of that.

Daniella: And this is why love bombing works so well on people, because people are very vulnerable to cults and coercive people when they are lacking in social connection, which often happens during a time of loss. Or moving, you know, going to college is a big [00:12:00] one, and then also I love to tell people like anything in this personal transformation space is going to have predators show up, right?

Whether that is college, whether that is rehab, whether that is an exercise group, the same way that anywhere children are cared for, abusers are going to show up like anywhere in the world, the personal transformation world, you're going to have people that are going to use your desires against you. And something else you said was kind of like creating this false intimacy, and this is one of the big things.

So I say about cults, I'm like, they're not actually being vulnerable. They're hacking vulnerability. They're hacking personality and like turning it up to a thousand, you know, all cults have some sort of process where you are supposed to just lay yourself open to the group and its members and just take whatever they have to say to you.

Which, of course, is a narcissistic relationship very much as well. And it makes you feel all [00:13:00] of these things. I have this experience these days when I go to a book club that has just read my book, and I'm walking into a room full of total strangers who've just spent 13 hours with my deepest things that I've been through in my life.

And I don't really know them, but I have to be open and I have to share. And I feel it the next day. I feel it right afterwards, almost like sort of a high. And then I feel it the next day, like very much, you know, down from that. And so, it's one of the big things that we hear in the cult survivor world, too, is like, how do you find that level of community?

Just like you were saying with the individual, right? They tell you that this is community, and then they tell you that on the outside, you're not going to find this. And then you get to the outside and you don't find it. But the problem is, I think that as cult survivors and cult babies, born into this, our meters for community [00:14:00] are like off the charts, right? So like purpose and mission and community were used to such a level of enmeshed community that it is not healthy. It's not healthy for 50 to 100 people to know like every single dark thing about you, it's not healthy to have relationships that you don't have to build one step at a time.

It's not healthy to put absolutely everything behind the mission. But I think because everyone is driven by mission and purpose and community, it takes us a long time to realize. And I often compare it to the same way when someone leaves an abusive relationship and part of their healing is learning that they might never hit those heights of passion again because that wasn't true, healthy. You know, it feels like a high because it's not good for you. And so we have to like, learn to even figure out what a healthy level of community is in the first place.

Kerry: You're hitting me hard. I realized as I was leaving that toxic relationship, that I thought that me, I was safe if [00:15:00] we were safe. That I, because I've grown up in a very conservative evangelical home where a lot of the things that you just talked about were definitely happening that I really didn't have a strong sense of myself and that there is a part of me that continues to feel very driven and drawn towards a community experience.

But you're right, you know, I'm having to learn that we get safe when I'm safe and we are the we that the connection with the person or that group isn't really safe if not every member inside of it is safe. And so I've had to reverse the way I kind of think about that. But that's fascinating that you say that, maybe we have to mourn the loss of that oneness that I think we're all seeking.

I remember years back in psychology, we talked about how when you're born, there's a shock when the isolation, there's really a sense of, Oh my goodness, I could be abandoned alone in the course of drive for survival. We move towards, I need this person because an infant depends on that connection for its very survival.

And then hopefully if we grow enough and we move through our neuroticness, we can learn to want [00:16:00] relationships that we and ourselves are okay and that we move through autonomy. But the ultimate goal of all of us, I think unconsciously are driven towards oneness. Now I don't think life here, you know, I do believe in an afterlife, but I don't think life here we'll ever experience that kind of oneness.

But I do think there's a drive for it. And I think there's certain types of people that really dangle that as hope that you can experience this here with us or with me. So I want to shift a little bit and move into how can you recognize if there is coercive control. Let's talk about it on the subtle level.

On the large level, of course, if you see them messing with your sleep habit, you're delaying when you're getting to eat, there's all sorts of other things happening. But what are some of the more psychological signs of coercive control that maybe most of us don't think to even see it as a problem or something to be concerned about?

Daniella: Like definitely language and then secrecy, right? So secrecy is heavily weaponized by cult leaders and [00:17:00] coercive leaders because it makes you feel special, right? You're in on the secret. You know, I know more about America than you do because I had a top-secret clearance, and you know, like I'm special. It also keeps you from seeing patterns of abuse because you're not talking about it.

And then another one, I think that's really important. So I'll give you two, but one is physical, which is bathroom control, shower control, any of that kind of stuff, you know, is like along with appearance and attitude control. So when—oh, this is a big one for me—when they have a color that you're not supposed to wear because it bothers them.

Kerry: Oh yeah. I was told I was not to wear camouflage colors like, like leopard and tiger colors.

Daniella: Right. Or you're not allowed to have your hair either short or long based on whatever they don't like. You know, this is another big one. Appearance control.

Kerry: Or no Instagram accounts. Yeah.

Daniella: Yeah. I find that appearance control always breaks down into four things. It's [00:18:00] hair, body size, body coverage, and underwear. Yeah. Another sign then is busyness, right? And labor and cults are always about labor. So I tell people always to ask themselves, right? How much labor am I doing? And look, even outside of coercive relationships, if you're in a pair bond, I think the conversation about who is doing what labor needs to be going on all of the time to make sure that it is equal all of the time. Right, but then also a narcissistic partner is not going to want you ever to just be idle, just be thinking or journaling or reading, right?

Because they don't want you to realize. And so they do this by keeping you busy. And this is what I think when I see the whole trad-wife thing going on, you know, it's like we stop using modern appliances and modern conveniences. So that it's more work to just feed your family every day and keep your house clean and bake the [00:19:00] bread.

And, you know, when I was growing up in the cult as a 12-year-old, I was in charge of making six loaves of bread every two days from scratch and ironing laundry and all of these different things. It was just, you were very, very busy all of the time.

Kerry: Yeah, it reminds me on the dating apps when people ask you, "So what do you bring to the table?" Or they'll ask you, "Do you cook?" Or, you know, an introduction of, "I want you to make"—like, uh, no. I grew up in a home that whenever dad walks through the door, you don't dare be lounging. You better not be relaxing. We needed to look busy. Because the thought was, if he's busy, then you need to stay busy. So as many hours as he's busy, you better be busy too. And yeah—

Daniella: That's—you have time to clean, you know, and just the constant, constant. And this was something I had to work on and I'm going to give your listeners this. So my friend, Danielle, who you read about in the book, she says to me one day as she's watching me just like around my house and she goes, "You know, some people have body [00:20:00] dysmorphia."

She was—a U.S. house dysmorphia that you never think your house is clean enough. And that, you know, it was so significant to me. Because I think about, okay, why am I like that? And it's definitely because when I was a kid, any adult—now we have 50 dads, right? So you better never be idle. And if it's your job to clean, it better be white-glove clean or you get terribly abused.

And so that was like something I work on. I'm very proud now that after the dishes are done in the evening, no more dishes get washed. They stay in the sink. And, you know, just the other day I had a happy hour with a bunch of ladies in my townhouse and I just had them over to my house, just looking lived-in and two of them brought it up differently, separately, you know, and I was like, by the time they left, I was just like inviting people to your uncleaned house [00:21:00] is an act of love, both for you and for them, I think. We don't need to live in these perfect little castles that are never dirty or never out of order, we can just be. And that's the biggest thing when you leave a cult, leave a narcissistic relationship is like, you can just be, you can just sit on your couch all day on Saturday and crochet if you want to.

Kerry: Wow. I don't know if I've arrived there yet. I still have that argument inside my head thinking you should be doing more. What more could you be doing? It is hard to stop when you grew up in that. I mean, I'm a hard worker as a result of it, which is really great, but there's the point of working too much.

Daniella: Let me give you one tip. This is what my therapist told me. Even my hobbies are productive, right? Are making clothes and all of this. So for a summer, I did a bunch of puzzles. And then when the puzzle's done, you take it apart. And it is like—for and I literally remember I got done with the first one and I was like, "Oh, I want to like glue this" and I was like, "Nope, you take it apart" like the whole point is kind of just like teaching yourself that like not leading to anything except healing, right, except like... [00:22:00]

Kerry: Yeah.

Daniella: Hobbies are important to happiness and creating art is important to healing that even if other people don't get it, like it's still important.

Kerry: Right. Right. Well, that's really great. I appreciate that so much. And the podcast extra, I want to jump over and talk about how to wake up and recognize that maybe you're in a coercively controlling relationship. Like what is the things that maybe internally you might be experiencing and even what you should be assessing? But I want to thank you so much for being on today and how can people find you if they want to learn more about what you're doing, what you're up to, what you're writing, where should they go? What's the best place?

Daniella: So on social media, I am the knitting cult lady on all of the platforms. You can find me there. I'm most active on TikTok, which is where I'm like writing my book with people and having this discussion about cults and how we recognize all of the signs. And I also have two podcasts, Cult and the Culting of America, and Hey White Women, where a Black creator and I are deconstructing white supremacy, like the cult that it [00:23:00] is. And I also have a book out, Uncultured, and that can be found wherever you buy books, and it's also on audio.

Kerry: That's great. That's really wonderful. Thank you so much for this. This has been a rich conversation. I, I feel like we just scratched the surface, so I definitely want to circle back down the road and have you on again and talk about maybe the later stage or even the exit stage because I know that's another critical scary section is how to do that because there's usually they make sure to ensure mutual mass destruction that everything kind of blows up and blows apart. So I'd love to get your take on that. But thank you so much, Daniela. This was amazing. I really appreciate it.

Daniella: Thanks for having me.

Kerry: Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube? Find me at Kerry McAvoy PhD. And whether you're in, consider leaving, or have left a narcissistic relationship, find community support at my toxic-free relationship club. You can learn about this resource as well as others at Kerry [00:24:00] McAvoy, PhD.com, and I'll see you back here next week.