Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse

Why "Just Leave" is Terrible Advice: How Narcissists Keep You Trapped

• Kerry McAvoy, Ph.D. • Season 3 • Episode 95

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Have you been told that you should just leave?

In this episode, Lisa Sonni and I discuss why this advice severely misses the mark. Why exiting a narcissistically abusive relationship is difficult and even dangerous for most abuse survivors.

Resources Mentioned in the Episode
The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker
Character Disturbance by George Simon
Dangerous Personalities by Joe Navarro
The Passionate Marriage by Dr. David Schnarch

Are struggling to figure out what you should do in that toxic relationship? Maybe you don't know the next steps to take. Get practical help on this week's Podcast Extra Interview by becoming a Substack Subscriber here: http://substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse

A Quick Announcement
Lisa Sonni will officially join as a full-time co-host in 2025. Welcome, Lisa! We are so excited to have you aboard.

A Special Thank You!
I’ve deeply appreciated Lisa and Rossana Faye being regular special guests this past year. I’d also like to recognize the other behind-the-scenes people who helped make this show possible, especially Joe Duncan and Arianne Bansig. Each works tirelessly to make every episode extra special. You both are amazing!

Fan Mail
Thank you for the fan mail! For sharing your struggles and victories. We would also love to hear topic recommendations. Thank you so much for supporting us by being a regular listener. You are the reason for this show. We love and appreciate you so much! 

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D., a mental health specialist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships, deconstructing narcissism, and understanding various other mental health-related issues. Her memoir, Love You More: The Harrowing Tale of Lies, Sex Addiction, & Double Cross, gives an uncensored glimpse into the dynamics of narcissistic abuse.

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Ep. 95 Final

Kerry: [00:00:00] The thing that we tell most victims is at the first sign of something going wrong, they should leave. But what if their partner doesn't let them? Today Lisa Sonni joins me to talk about how to handle when your partner is threatening, intimidating, and using emotional blackmail to keep you stuck in that toxic relationship.

Well, Lisa, thank you so much for joining me today. In fact, I want to make an announcement right at the top, and that is you're becoming a co host of Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse, and I'm so excited to have you on. I know it's been like a year long tryout for you, and you've been so patient, you're always a fan favorite, and you and I do a lot together, and you know just how much I love working with you.

So, starting in the new year, you're going to be a consistent person on every interview. So even when we do interviews with guests, you and I will be doing that together and I'm really excited because I think this is going to branch us in some new directions that maybe just in myself, I couldn't do [00:01:00] alone.

So I know you're bringing a whole lot to the table. So welcome. 

Lisa: Thank you. 

Kerry: Well, today is a tough topic to kind of wrap up the topics for the year, and that is what to do when you're in a relationship with somebody and you realize it's time to go, but you can't leave because either they start up with the threats, the intimidations are increasing, or maybe they're literally blocking you from getting out.

Or in my case, there was a lot of emotional and financial blackmail Did you experience that in that toxic relationship? 

Lisa: I did. I experienced it in a different way than what I hear from a lot of people. It's not so blocking you from leaving. I think for me, it was the like, fine, you can leave.

But if you do, You're weak. You're abandoning me. They really play up the guilt. So for me, it was a lot more that. Plus, financially, it was not really that easy to leave, though I know people have it even harder. It was less obvious. But what I see is blocking the [00:02:00] door. I think it's so interesting. People think you're in an abusive relationship.

Leave it. You know, put your clothes in a suitcase and leave as if They don't physically block the door, as if there's no children involved in so many cases, where what people really are telling you to do is kidnap your children and leave. You can't leave and then go tell him where you live and where you are with the children.

And family court certainly wouldn't look too kindly on that at all either, so you can't. 

Kerry: I bet people don't realize that just walking out with the kids, or even this is another thing, you can't just change the locks on the house either. 

Lisa: Right. 

Kerry: Because he technically lives there, and in a way they almost view it like a renter or rentee situation, but really when both of your names are on the deed, it belongs to him.

You can't lock him out of his own property. It is not that simple. I think people, first of all, oversimplify it. But I think the other thing is, is what I noticed and I hear a lot is that some form of intimidation starts to really increase massively. It could be in the direction [00:03:00] of, you can't leave, you're going to devastate me, I'm going to kill myself.

Or I'm going to do something really radical, or I'll stop working. In fact, someone just texted me today and said, he threatened to completely cut me off and not support the kids, so I stayed. I'm still staying. But there's usually some kind of like literal scary thing that you know. Here's the thing that most people also don't know, is that you know, because you've been living with this person, that they're capable of it.

You've seen them do these things to other people. So the threat is very plausible or they do something in the opposite direction is it's something direct at you within my case. He said well then, we're going to go to court and I'm going to take half of everything. 

Lisa: Yeah, that's terrifying for so many people.

It's an interesting concept that men lose in divorce and women don't when actually. Statistically, women lose more. It's not really the point. Gender is not really the point. People lose in divorce. And it's easy to say leave when there are so many factors, and it is different for everybody, but finances is a huge one.

That's not something you could just kind of toss aside. But if we [00:04:00] were to say you have no kids and finances isn't the thing, they're still using such manipulative tactics to keep you there. Blocking the door, the guilt, the begging, preying on the fact that you're in a trauma bond. Sometimes they'll say, you don't want to be here, fine, leave.

And you want them to leave. You want the relationship to be over. And then you beg them to stay. I've seen that many times. 

Kerry: Yeah. Or they throw you the emotional bone that you've been waiting for all along. That you have begging and pleading. The very thing that you had been asking for. Whether it is that they would just stop and go out to dinner and acknowledges a person that may be they've been with holding sex, suddenly they're acting like they're interested in you and wanna be intimate with you. Or maybe to participate around the house like step up and be a copartner in this big situation and they only be here the And I know for us, in fact I was just talking to somebody else in the Toxic Free Relationship Club about the fact that you'd been hungering for it for so long that when that actually happens you end up thinking, Oh, [00:05:00] okay, they see it, they get it, now maybe this is the start of a change, not realizing this is actually what Dr.

George Simon calls Responsibility Avoidant Behavior. It's not a sign of change. It looks like change. In a normal person who has a very collaborative mindset, it would be evidence of, Oh, I get it. I've had the awakening. I'm changing. But in a, in a predatory or competitive person, it's actually a form of manipulation in order to get you off their back.

It's a form of deflection, really. It's like, see, I've distracted you. I'm giving you what you want. But the minute you relax and assume everything's going to be okay, Then it all goes back to normal. Here's how it happened to me. We were actually separated and that's when he dropped the bomb that he was going to take me to court and compete for the company.

I had contributed all the assets, 100 percent of the assets. And he looked at me. In fact, he actually took the time to slowly, which was to make a point. When it came to be presentation, I swear, he might have had a, like a PowerPoint up, the way he did it [00:06:00] was so dramatic. He carefully listed all our assets individually, their value of each one, then added them up in front of me.

Came a total at the bottom and then almost like jabbed the pen into the, the, it was a wood table and I was actually afraid that he had marked the wood table. It was such an emphasis. He said that I'm owed half of that. And I thought, but I contributed all of this income. You know, I contributed all of this income.

Me even making you partner in this company was a gracious thing. Like it was a gift. You should see it as a gift. And then he looked at me and he said, life's never been fair to me. Why should it be fair to you? Now, mind you, To understand where that money came from, that was the life insurance for my late husband's death.

So, how is life being fair to me? That was a loss of like a massive, like, I felt like a bomb had gone off in my life, and he's now saying he deserves half, even though he's not made the same choices and he's not gone through the same trauma. But at those moments that you're just, you're devastated, and I remember that [00:07:00] when he came back and begged for help, I then said, listen, I want half of the company.

I want you to give up your half. I shouldn't have given it to you. And he said, sure. And you know what happened? The minute I relaxed and I didn't keep his feet to the grindstone, I didn't like just force it. Because it felt mean. There were some big decisions that we needed to make. And I went ahead and made them thinking he'll keep his half of a bargain.

I'm going to go ahead and do my half of the bargain. But I found out, no, it was only to get back into the relationship so that he could continue doing whatever he wanted to do so that nothing changed because he wasn't ready for it to change. I think that's what most people don't understand is that it's never simple.

They're so good at the con that they know exactly what our trigger points are and then they'll push in it, whether it's we're over sympathetic and we're highly empathic. Or whether we're super concerned about the kids and what happens with the custody, they'll threaten us there. Or, for me it was financially, he knew that that was my financial livelihood for the rest of my life, he's gonna threaten me there, but when people say to victims, [00:08:00] just leave.

In fact, somebody wrote on one of my videos yesterday, The first time you get abused, it's a trauma. The second time, you're a volunteer. Like, 

what? 

Lisa: Unempathetic, overly simplified, just wrong. I, I, there's, it's wrong. I think that one of the worst things I see is people who've never been through it, oversimplifying it.

Brings up the most sarcastic parts of me, right? Like, how do you think that works? So you leave with the kids and then when he calls the police and says that you kidnapped his children, what then? Or if you lock him out of the house, so many people, like, he wouldn't be allowed back in the house. Okay, cool.

So when the cops show up and they make you let him back in, what then? I'll, I would tell them. Yeah, you would? You would just tell them? 

Kerry: Yeah. 

Lisa: No one else thought of that? You're smarter than us? Cool. 

Kerry: Oh yeah, and the police leave the property, what then? You know? 

Lisa: Yeah, yeah. 

The police 

leave, they let him in.

Now what? Are you safe? You feel safe? 

Kerry: Yeah. 

Lisa: For this, for this abusive man that you've just pissed off and called the police to now be in your home? Oh, fine, then I would leave. Okay, where would you go? 

Kerry: [00:09:00] Right, right. And in The Gift of Fear, Gavin DeBecker talks about what pushes people to the point of dangerousness.

And I'm even thinking, for us in the United States, yesterday, the CEO of UnitedHealth was assassinated. You know, what pushed that person to the point of dangerousness? And he says it's when you strip them of their dignity. Now, let's replay the scenario that you just said. If in that situation, that was the one thing, was your partner's image, how they look to the world, and you called the police, so there's blue red lights out in front of your lawn, all your neighbors know what you just did, they're knocking at the door, there's obviously an escalation, and this person's gonna live in that house in that neighborhood, and then you did it in front of the kids, or maybe whoever else is in the house, You don't think you just stripped them of their dignity?

Do you think you pushed them possibly in a corner now that you've, you have escalated it? So I think that's what people don't understand. It's just, it's, we're dealing with very, very dangerous people. Joe Navarro in his book called [00:10:00] Dangerous Personalities, which I really want to have him on this podcast, identifies four types of personalities that are extremely dangerous, but he's an FBI profiler.

He says it is the narcissist, the antisocial personality disorder, the paranoid individual, And sometimes the borderline personality disorder. He said those can be the most dangerous, and it gets even worse when they have multiple characteristics of the other type. Well, most of us are in a relationship that have multiple characteristics of these types.

So, you have now publicly humiliated them, and they're already a dangerous personality. 

Lisa: Mm hmm. Bad, bad 

recipe. for all of that. It's so hard. I think, and these are, again, some of the logistical things and you know, police showing up at your house, but even just, you could leave. And I sort of air quote that you could, you could leave, but he's on his knees.

You know what you were talking about, the promises. I find that a lot of people will say, you know, you need therapy, you need anger management. And then when you finally are just, done. He'll tell you I'll go to therapy and maybe he will. Let's not even get to that [00:11:00] part yet. Maybe he will. Maybe he won't, but he's going to say that.

And you think all it took was for me to threaten to leave. Now he gets it. And I know we sort of wonder like, why did it take that? Why did I have to threaten to leave? to leave for him to finally get it, but you're just so relieved that he finally gets it now. He doesn't get it now. He got it the whole time.

He knows that he just needs to say something, and you are so desperate to keep your family together, to keep your marriage together, to have him finally be better, to finally have that man back that you first fell in love with. You're finally starting to see it. It's so easy to say, Leave when you've given multiple chances, but people don't factor in that you're maybe trauma bonded and how your mind is playing tricks on you or that you're in a state of cognitive dissonance and it's just not clear.

Leaving is unbelievably hard when the love of your life, a. k. a. your abuser, is on their knees begging you, saying every word that you have been wanting them to say for ten years, and it's like they've had this lightbulb [00:12:00] moment and they're crying. Pulling at your legs on the floor, telling you that if you leave, their life is over, they're going to end their life, or that you're their soulmate.

People have no idea what that's like to watch this person on the floor. My abuser did not get that far, that desperate in begging, but he played this, but I'm depressed. So he didn't cry. But it was very, like, I don't even know what the word is, but like, would lay in bed just like 

Kerry: Like despondent. 

Lisa: So, like, defeated.

Yeah. So despondent. And, and, you know, can you please just bring me my depression medication? Can you please just, I need water and I can't, and what am I going to do without you? And like, go be with your mistress. Go be with your mistress. But, meanwhile, like, it was pulling on my heartstrings, and he'd made mistakes, and it was all a cause of the depression, and the anxiety, and, you know, I was being unfair, and he's trying, and can't I see that?

And try to leave in that, you know? They don't make it easy. It's the hardest thing you can do. 

Kerry: Yeah, no, 

the guilt tripping is Yeah, [00:13:00] absolutely. Yeah, mine did the same thing. His version of it, like, I, I've not been able to get out of bed, and you know, I'm like, jeez, and you know what? I had, I think 360 was still on on one of those times, it's like, for someone who's not getting out of bed, you're moving around town just fine.

Lisa: You seem to be in a lot of places, I know. Mine couldn't get out of bed, but he could go clubbing in 

a global pandemic. 

Kerry: I know, I know. But what's fascinating, and I'm going to make a shift in our focus here in a second, but what's fascinating is the power dynamics. Let's think about that for a moment. Dr.

David Snarf says in The Passionate Marriage, the person who is the most invested in the relationship has the least power. 

Lisa: So true. 

Kerry: So most invested has the least power. Okay, so, you've had the least power in this relationship. You've now suddenly thought, you know what, I can't do this anymore, I'm out.

The moment you decide that, the power has shifted into your favor. So now you're the most powerful one in the relationship because you've decided you've had enough. So what do they do? They then move readily into the weakest position, but hoping that it will elicit guilt or [00:14:00] fear or something from you.

It's because they know that you're so vulnerable to wanting that, that you will then willingly go back into the least powerful position of being the most invested again. It's such a sophisticated play. And it works so well. 

It works so well. 

Lisa: So you said sophisticated play. You are completely right. But I don't want people to hear that and think that you meant intelligent or well thought out.

I don't know if natural is the right word. 

Kerry: Instinctual. 

Lisa: But it's not like Ooh, let me plan out this strategy. It's just instinctual for them. Cause a lot of people are like, nah, my guy's not smart enough for that. It's not about smart. 

Kerry: No, no, you're right. That's a danger. That's not about intelligence.

It's more of a, like a primal instinctual thing. And they just know how to do it way better than you and I would ever be. No matter how good at you and I try to be at this, we'll never be at that level. It's just so natural for them. But here's what I get very concerned about. Even what we're saying, people probably listening to us are saying, Yep, that's me.

Yep, that's me. So I'm just stuck There's [00:15:00] no way out. Why bother even trying? Because listen to what they're saying. This sounds hopeless. So how did you then push through that? Because I remember getting to that hopeless place where I even thought, well, maybe death's better. Seriously. Maybe it's just if I could just somehow find a way.

I never actually got to planning it, but I started thinking, maybe if somehow just life took me, I'm sick all the time anyway, maybe that's the better thing . So how did you push through that hopeless helplessness? 

Lisa: So I have something that not everybody has, although plenty of people do, which is children.

So for me, it was that. My motivation primarily came from, there's a very pivotal night that I will never forget. It was just such a small moment and such an important moment where I stood over my one year old daughter's crib. She was asleep and I just looked at her and I cried standing over her crib and I was like, I'm so sorry.

That I've chosen this and that I did this and I know in hindsight that's not accurate but I am so sorry that I chose this for us and that I've done this to us and that I don't know how to get [00:16:00] myself out of this and I feel weak and I feel I just can't do this anymore and I looked at her and I was like, you have to leave, you have got to leave, you have to leave for her and I'm wildly passionate about people who talk about staying for their kids, I don't want to ruin their lives, I don't, I want them to have this family.

And I mean this with so much love and respect, but when you stay for the kids, I believe that it is, like, bordering an excuse. Like, you just, you don't want to leave, you don't have the strength to leave, and that's okay, like, it's, we're all at that point, at some point. But, that is the worst excuse you could ever come up with, the worst reason you could ever come up with, because it damages them.

You're staying for them. What? You're hurting them. And yourself. There's no benefit to staying when you have kids. You need to leave. For the kids, not the opposite. They're not this, what is this, intact family. I don't want them to come from a broken home. You're living in a broken home right now. 

Kerry: Yes, exactly.

Lisa: my strength came from my kids. Where I see other people get their strength is just for their lives. [00:17:00] And to be fair, that's what I encourage. Forget if you have kids or not. That's not the point. It's for you. Save your own life. Even if you're not in, in physical danger, which I would argue you're always, there's always a risk of that.

Leave for you. Save your own life. You want to live like this? What are you 30, 40, 50? I don't care if you're 70 years old. I have a 74 year old client who left once, but you can leave at any age for any reason. I want that for people to be able to see that your life is at risk. Emotional abuse is so damaging.

You're just like a ghost moving through life when you're in an abusive relationship. So find the reason for you and, and know that you've done hard things. I feel like I'm talking to my, my children in some ways, like you can do hard things. You can do this. I know how hard it is. I know that it might take a shelter and couch surfing and three year legal battle and money that you don't have.

I know that. And you're in danger and the guilt and all the things. I know. But. Get into coaching or therapy [00:18:00] or support groups or watch free YouTube videos and read books to go to the library, do what you need to do to learn, build the skills and get out 

Kerry: right, right. For me, it was I'm naturally a stubborn person.

 I don't like the idea of someone getting one over on me. That just really just infuriates me. So that he did that. I became determined and I already survived a lot of other really extremely difficult things in my life. This is not going to be the thing that takes me down. So as much as a part of me was feeling extremely helpless, and I was, I did feel a lot of helplessness.

A lot, a lot of it. But I also felt angry, and I was using that anger to sort of push me forward. And here's the other thing. And I know that you and I really differ on this. But I believe in a God, and I believe that there's a goodness in the universe, and that the universe does want all of us healthy and whole.

I do believe there's something working towards that end for us, because I've heard too many situations where people had had opportunities that seemed too fluky that opened [00:19:00] up. So, here's the other thing I think is critical. Get ready, psychologically get ready, get ready financially. In fact, someone wrote to me that they spent 10 years budgeting to get out, and then they did it.

It's possible. I know. It's possible. It may take you a long time, but it's possible. So get ready. Do whatever you need to do to do that and then wait for the opening. And I believe either your gut or karma or a higher power or God is going to say, This is the moment. Take it. Take it. And it may come in a catastrophe in my case with my son getting ill with leukemia, or it may be like an opportunity or a break.

It'll come in some form, but we gotta start looking for outs, and an out will come, and when it comes, you have to be ready to step through that. That's up to you. Nobody's gonna make you step. You're gonna have to step out, but watch for an opening. And I really, truly believe it does happen that way. 

Lisa: I love what you just said.

I don't even, like, I want to echo it. Just, this is your moment. Take it. There's gonna be a voice that just comes. And you need to grab that moment [00:20:00] of opportunity where you feel the courage and, you know, even when you leave, right, then that comes post separation abuse and the roller coaster of emotions that can suck you back in.

But like, you've got that strength to take it one step out the door, keep going, keep fighting, challenge the guilt. I find the guilt to be such a big topic that keeps you back. And when the abuser knows that, that's the thing that they're going to use. The same way that if being stonewalled and ignored just rips your heart out.

Because it didn't for me. A lot of people say it bothers everyone. 

Kerry: Oh, it drove me nuts. 

Lisa: Didn't bother me at all. 

Kerry: Guilt isn't as big of a weapon with me, but you stonewall me. You cut me out and treat me like I'm a nobody. The more I come unglued. 

Lisa: Yeah. So he would have 

used that tactic on me. 

Kerry: Yeah, he did. 

Lisa: That didn't work for me.

Stonewalling me was like, Peaceful. So guilt was what got me. So that's what he used. So watch for that. Know that that's your vulnerability and that's what he's going to come for. So really learn more about yourself in what your own vulnerabilities are so that you can strengthen those [00:21:00] specific things.

Kerry: Yeah. This has been such a great topic. What I want to do is in the podcast extra jump over and talk about practical steps to getting ready, maybe things that people don't think about that they should be thinking about, because there are some, we just even identified at the top of the hour, the pitfalls, like there's legal ramifications.

And we really don't want you to make a wrong one, because it can have just devastating consequences. But before we wrap up, we get fan mail. And I'd love to have you sort of take this section and talk about the fan mail that we get. Because I deeply appreciate hearing from people. 

Lisa: So when we get fan mail, we can't respond to the mail itself, so we respond here on the podcast.

And we're going to get better and better at doing that and really make this a part of it. So please continue to send in your comments, your feedback, your questions, even suggestions for topics that you'd like to hear more about. But today, we recently got mail that said, I'm at this point, how is it that death seems easier?

It's from North Carolina. Yeah. What a tough thing to hear. 

Kerry: [00:22:00] Yeah. And as we identified, we both have, I mean, you didn't say that you got there, but I definitely got there. And I, I hope that this individual knows that this is a commonplace, that it's actually part of the late stage of the trauma bond is that we, when we completely submerge and submit our will to this individual, we start to feel like in a way we are dying, that we have died and we start to feel like death is a preferable thing.

But that's a sign. That you're feeling really trapped and under control. And I hope that today's episode has given you some things to think about, some courage and ways to begin to get prepared and get ready to get out. 

Lisa: Oh, 

yeah. 

I, I didn't get to that point, but it, it felt like dying, but I know it's like building that inner strength and knowing that there's light on the other side and that you can get through this and find your way out.

Kerry: Right. The other thing I'd love to add is that you and I are now co leading the toxic Free Relationship. club membership, and there are several tiers inside of it. And I know that you and I have at length talked about the fact that we don't want a person's budget to be an obstacle. So if you're needing a certain level of support, especially either at the community or [00:23:00] club level, please reach out to either one of us.

We both have opportunities for you to have access through each of us on our own individual platforms. But please reach out to us and let us know your financial situation. So we can help you overcome that. So you can become part of that membership. 

Lisa: Yeah, great. One more that we got was I'm not a mean person at all, but I've noticed that he pushes me so far and I snap and it saddens me so much because I'm not this person.

Kerry: That was the one about reactive abuse. Yeah. Yeah. 

Lisa: Being pushed to that point where you. Flip out and and react like we've all done that. I have we have done some things and said some things but I think for me It's recognizing that it makes you a person that you don't even recognize. You've lost yourself That's a huge sign that you need to take some action and start thinking about who you are Who you show up as in this relationship.

and how the relationship is the cause 

Kerry: exactly.

I love the fact that dr Ramini talks about having internal boundaries versus boundaries Where you say to yourself, Okay, the next [00:24:00] time I feel driven to this point, I'm going to do this instead. I'm going to take a deep breath. I'm going to walk out of the room. I'm going to leave the house. But to start thinking of other options.

Because they now know that works. So it's going to happen again. Because they want you feeling crazy, and like you're the bad one. So I would start to think about, how could I find a different way of responding that when that happens, I'm going to do this instead. But yeah, they do that intentionally, and you know, just like with a cat being pulled around by its tail, it's gonna bite.

Or a dog being poked so many times it's going to snap. So it's a natural reaction, but we do have the ability to recognize and then use something else instead of snapping. But thank you so much for this today. This was a great topic, a tough topic. I know we'll circle back and talk more about it because it's such a hard spot and something all of us have sit at for so long.

But we're going to now jump over to Podcast Extra and talk about practical steps so that you don't get in trouble when you're ready to leave. And thank you so much. I appreciate this, . 

Well that's a wrap for this [00:25:00] week's episode. Are you following me on Instagram, and YouTube? Find me at Kerry McAvoy, PhD, and whether you're in consider leaving or have left a narcissistic relationship, find community support at my toxic free relationship club. You can learn about this resource as well as others at Kerry McAvoy, phd.com and I'll see you back here next week.

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