When You Return to the Abuse: Why It Takes 7 Tries to Leave a Narcissist

Victims return to a narcissistically abusive relationship an average of seven times.

In this episode, Lisa and I discuss why leaving a narcissist or toxic partner is so extremely difficult and share some thoughts on how to view leaving differently. 

Are you struggling to stay out of a toxic relationship? Does your partner’s emotional pleas or guilting convince you to stay? Learn practical steps to leaving a toxic relationship for good in this week’s Podcast Extra. Get immediate access by subscribing to Substack here: substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse

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Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D., a mental health specialist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships, deconstructing narcissism, and understanding various other mental health-related issues. Her memoir, Love You More: The Harrowing Tale of Lies, Sex Addiction, & Double Cross, gives an uncensored glimpse into the dynamics of narcissistic abuse.

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Transcript

Ep. 98: When You Return to the Abuse: Why It Takes 7 Tries to Leave a Narcissist

Kerry: [00:00:00] It takes an average between four to seven times for someone to leave a toxic relationship. Today, Lisa Sonni and I talk about why narcissistically abused victims struggle to exit and stay out of toxic partnerships.

Lisa: One of our toxic-free relationship club members keeps talking about how she's terrified of going back and feeling like she's at risk of that. And I know I see people constantly worried about going back. The average is like four to seven times.

Kerry: This is a super common problem. I went back once, and I think you did too, didn't you? I mean, in fact, you said you would have gone back had he not done something, but he kind of closed the door, right?

Lisa: Yeah, yeah. It's hard for me to actually gauge how many times I went back because I feel like I never really left. So I don't think it was really, I left and went back. I left and we both attempted to go back and it never really took. Thankfully. Thankfully.

Kerry: I know that my ex, he was telling me [00:01:00] that in his first marriage, the longest relationship that he had, actually it wasn't his first, it was his second, but then the longest relationship. I think I counted at least four times they broke up and got back together. So I know that he had this history of this repetitiveness with the women in his life. And in fact, he left it with me. I remember it. He ended it with me saying, "Can we be friends?" And I thought, okay...

Lisa: No.

Kerry: First, why would I want to be friends with you? But I could tell that he was keeping that door open so that I've continued to feel a trauma bond, a connection with him. And I could see how he was keeping women on a hook so that he could cycle back through them again. So let's unpack why this happens and why we get so—I know why I got caught up in it, but I'd like to know why you see people get caught up in it and maybe what we see our clients get caught up in it.

Lisa: I think for me, for me specifically, I felt like I was abandoning him and there was this sense of like, I absolutely can't not have this [00:02:00] relationship anymore. I need this family. I need this. And it was wrong, obviously. What I see commonly, guilt, abandonment, obviously trauma bonds, I think that kind of almost goes without saying. When you're trauma bonded, you just feel this strange pull.

You feel desperate even to go back. But I think that that attachment, because it mimics love, I see a lot of people like, "But we're meant to be together and it wouldn't feel this hard if we weren't meant to be." Yeah. That's not true at all, but I get it. I really understand that. I think I felt it too, but it's a trauma bond. It's playing tricks on you.

Kerry: It's back to something that you kept saying, and when you said it was one of those like—and I've now since seen it everywhere else, but it's one of the things you can't not, not see once you see it, but you don't see it while it's happening. And that is the positive person that you met, the person that you fell in love with, the person that continued to breadcrumb you with this—the really wonderful self that occasionally shows up but gets less and less as you get further into relationship. You really believe that that's the potential. You really believe that you can get [00:03:00] there again, and when you get out and they then position it as "Oh, I saw the light. I've really been doing this hard work. I've missed you."

I mean, with a real person with an authentic relationship and a desire for intimacy, that's accurate. They probably may have had that epiphany, but with these types of individuals, that's not what it means. It just means "I'm bored" or "I miss toying with you" or "I need the gratification to know that you need me." So I'm going to circle back so that you can do that for me. But we don't see it. You called it manipulation. That's what it is. It's manipulation, but it looks like love. It looks like a bid for connection.

Lisa: Yeah, but it's loss of control. And that's the thing is, they have been in control the entire time. They were in control in the beginning when they were mirroring you, love bombing you, sucking you in, pretending to be someone. And even when it was abusive, they were in control. Now every time they became nice again, it was only to maintain or regain control every single [00:04:00] time.

Kerry: It's brutal. You synthesize it down to control. I hate that that's what you're saying, but I also know that it's true because, you know, I think that what we get so confused about is we'd say, "Well, doesn't everybody need belonging? Isn't this really a bid for connection? How can this person not want a connection? How can you just say it's control, not love, compassion?"

Or intimacy, but I do see that is that the individual—I've seen and I'd love to know what you think. I think they see connection and intimacy as weakness that is pitiful, pathetic, disgusting, contemptible. Why would they ever reveal that side of themselves like that? That only—I'm sorry—only wussy does that, you know what I'm saying, it's just like, pathetic people do that, so when you say control, I know most people are like, "Nah, it's not that simple," that's just, but it is, it is really just control.

Lisa: I think it is, and I will say this about the way that I speak about this, is that I know that it's [00:05:00] not black and white, and I know that it's nuanced, and I know that there's a lot to this, but I think that the average person, we almost need it to be simplified, so that it's just, this is what it is. Is it always only 100 percent about control? Hmm, there's some pieces missing. But fundamentally, I am right. That is exactly what it is.

They see connection as this vulnerable thing that could harm them. So they don't really want it. Intimacy. So when you are not in the relationship anymore, they want back control. They want back the relationship. It could also be like the status, the double income, the access to their kids, access to sex, whatever. But it's fundamentally about them being able to maintain that control over you.

But a lot of people think like, "Okay, fine. It's a trauma bond, but we're trauma bonded together." That's not how that works. They're very attached to the trauma bond, attached to your cycle and attached to you being attached to them, if that makes sense, but they're not trauma bonded. You're trauma [00:06:00] bonded.

Kerry: No, no, in fact, I see a trauma bond, I think the best way I see it, and I'd like to know what you think of my analogy, it's like, the old fashioned day, I grew up in the days where we used to chain dogs out to a doghouse. Sorry, that's what they did in the 60s and 70s, I know nowadays we tend to have dogs on dog runs or backyards, but in the 60s and 70s, dogs were on a chain with a dog house, and what would happen is, we like to think the chain is to both people, that we've been chained together.

No, that's not how it works. They're the end post, and they have the chain that comes out from them, and they've hooked it to you. They can unhook it from you, but they've hooked it to you. I mean, actually, we have to do the work of unhooking it, but they can walk away and say, "I'm not going to stay connected to you anymore."

But it was never that they got hooked by it. They've never been hooked by it. They're the one that sets the hook and keeps the hook and then releases the hook on their end. So it's only a one-sided experience. These individuals do not sit there in agonizing pain over why you've not called them. They're not the ones worrying [00:07:00] about whether or not you still love them at night.

I mean, mine fell asleep in two seconds at night. We could have had the most agonizing, horrific argument about the latest cheating incident that I had just discovered, and he's snoring peacefully beside me four seconds later.

Lisa: Sleeping like a baby. Because it's not upsetting, listen, you see those big emotional reactions, right? They're like on the floor on their knees, begging you not to leave, pleading with you or arguing with you, calling you names or both. That's really complicated. But this plea to get you back. We're like, "Okay, they must really love me. He's fighting so hard for me." That makes it hard because you're telling yourself that they want you back because they love you, because that's the words.

But why did it take you leaving for them to really start to get it? People think the answer is, he had an epiphany. This is what it took for him to really hear me. Ask yourself why. What's changed? The only thing that's changed is the loss of control.

Kerry: Yes, is that you're starting to heal. This is exactly what's happening right now to a [00:08:00] member in a toxic-free club.

Exactly what's happening. Somehow, she got wind that he has been going near her hometown, by the way. So, right there, that's a dog whistle. I don't know if people know what that means. That means that that is a hidden message of a trigger on purpose to upset somebody. He is letting her know that he's been cheating with somebody else.

So, the photos of this other person near her hometown. And how did he set the trigger? He set the trigger because she sends out an email campaign, and he's one of the first to open it every week. And how does she know? Well, because she's got a list and even though she keeps dropping him off, he adds another name that she knows by recognizing the email that it's him.

He's on purpose setting a trap to let her know what he's up to to create a curiosity in her. And then what happens to her? She's like, then it kicks off. "Why wasn't I good enough? Should I have gone back? Should I reach out and confront me?" And the minute you do that, then they're gonna start to work on you to get you back in or to make you feel really, really bad.

I mean, it could go either way, but chances are, I [00:09:00] know this individual's been doing great. She's gone two months with no contact. She has never in her life gone that long ever. So, this is because she's moving on and he's never lost that kind of control before. So he set up this really elaborate plan to get her confused, to activate the trauma bond.

Right now, I mean, I know because I've been in touch with her today, she's sobbing. She's home hysterically sobbing about this. And I know she's having deep regrets about "Why has he not chosen me?" and "What's wrong with me?" and and there's where they work in they like, "Oh, it is you. I do love you. I want back with you. This person doesn't mean anything to me. They're not like you." And there you go again. You're back off into another round.

Lisa: Giving you all the things that they never wanted to give you when you were there. The timing is wildly strategic. But again, if we see it as an epiphany on their part, it stops us from really being able to see that this is an act of manipulation.

And an abuser who's lost control will do [00:10:00] anything. And if it's not working, if you're maintaining no contact and you're being all strong, they're gonna ramp it up. And that only feeds into this "they really want me" thing, and "what if I don't give him another chance and he's really changed this time?" "What if he changes and he's better to somebody else?"

What if this is exactly what was supposed to happen and you are supposed to maintain no contact? But we never take it that way. We always take it in the fear of, "I should go back" or "What if I just have one more conversation with him?" Right? "Maybe it'll give me closure." You're not getting closure. You're going to get sucked back in so fast if you have that one final conversation that they begged for. That's just an opportunity.

Kerry: Mine said to me, "I know you want closure. Let's meet to talk about the closure." Because he knew the language and he used my language. And you know what? We did meet. And you know what happened? There was not a mention of closure. In fact, when I circled back to ask him, I said, "Well, what about what you did?"

"I don't know what you're talking about. I never said that." He gaslighted me out even. And even the thing, the text he sent me, he gaslighted me, "No I didn't say that, I didn't say I was going to do that." And people hearing my [00:11:00] example about this member may say, "Well, why would he use something so negative as a way to pull her back?"

"Why isn't he using what you just said, Lisa? Like, I've changed, I'm a better person." No, because sometimes they know in us that we have an insecurity about if we're okay, if we're beautiful or lovely or choosable. And so they'll throw another example in front of our face for us to then want to compete with that individual and win.

So I think that's what's happening in this case is it's not the, "Oh, I promise I'm different." It's more of "See, I'm with somebody else now" make you question whether or not you were better than her or more significant than her. And for some of us, that really works effectively as a hook.

Lisa: Mm hmm. I've actually described narcissistic abuse sometimes as sort of bespoke abuse. It's customized just for you. That's why this whole "all narcissists beg you back, all narcissists discard you"—that's not all narcissists. They customize for you. They hit your triggers and your abandonment wounds and what is going to, if that's what your wound is, they will come for you [00:12:00] with something that will hurt you specifically.

That's why, with my sort of last attempt at reconciliation, he used, "I want to get back together. I'm going to do therapy. I promise everything is going to be amazing. Let's meet up. Let's just have a conversation about what this is going to look like in terms of us getting back together. Because trust me, I know that we can't right now. I know that we need a few months apart." Let's meet. And we met. We had a nice lunch by the water, sat on a picnic bench, talked about our family, and just how we're going to rebuild it all, and it was just this great conversation. We spent the whole afternoon and evening together. We were intimate. He had a girlfriend.

He had someone behind my back, and two weeks later, the police called to advise me of that. Long story. But it was like, "What? Why did you even do that? What was the point?" But the point I know now was just to see if he could, just to suck me back in, just to get supply. And I think ultimately, he would have wanted that to work out. But he just wanted everything. He wanted her, he wanted [00:13:00] me, he wanted family, he wanted everything. And it's typical, but he can't have it all, so he got stuck with what he got stuck with.

Kerry: I got to see the back end of my ex's conversations because I happened to download the phone backup, which he gave me permission, but I got to actually unpack the way in which he was working multiple people at the same time. Got to see it. And it was customized. You're exactly right. So here he is, just to give you an image. Here he is seeing a young girl that maybe is barely legal.

His current girlfriend, by the way, I was actually the one moving in. I didn't know that. He was already seeing another person, had a relationship. She had found out about this young girl, confronted him, called it child pornography and he was having a fight with her about that saying "Oh, no, this young girl—it was all her fault. She did this to me."

He's now on a date with me. So he blocks his girlfriend's number so she can't text. She texts him, is sobbing about why she can't get a hold of him, sends him a photo of the block that she knows she's been blocked. [00:14:00] He then writes to her and says, "Oh, it was an error. I was just sick all weekend." No, he was with me. The games that they play is so sophisticated.

And an abuser who's lost control will do [00:10:00] anything. And if it's not working, if you're maintaining no contact and you're being all strong, they're gonna ramp it up. And that only feeds into this "they really want me" thing, and "what if I don't give him another chance and he's really changed this time?" "What if he changes and he's better to somebody else?"

What if this is exactly what was supposed to happen and you are supposed to maintain no contact? But we never take it that way. We always take it in the fear of, "I should go back" or "What if I just have one more conversation with him?" Right? "Maybe it'll give me closure." You're not getting closure. You're going to get sucked back in so fast if you have that one final conversation that they begged for. That's just an opportunity.

Kerry: Mine said to me, "I know you want closure. Let's meet to talk about the closure." Because he knew the language and he used my language. And you know what? We did meet. And you know what happened? There was not a mention of closure. In fact, when I circled back to ask him, I said, "Well, what about what you did?"

"I don't know what you're talking about. I never said that." He gaslighted me out even. And even the thing, the text he sent me, he gaslighted me, "No I didn't say that, I didn't say I was going to do that." And people hearing my [00:11:00] example about this member may say, "Well, why would he use something so negative as a way to pull her back?"

"Why isn't he using what you just said, Lisa? Like, I've changed, I'm a better person." No, because sometimes they know in us that we have an insecurity about if we're okay, if we're beautiful or lovely or choosable. And so they'll throw another example in front of our face for us to then want to compete with that individual and win.

So I think that's what's happening in this case is it's not the, "Oh, I promise I'm different." It's more of "See, I'm with somebody else now" make you question whether or not you were better than her or more significant than her. And for some of us, that really works effectively as a hook.

Lisa: Mm hmm. I've actually described narcissistic abuse sometimes as sort of bespoke abuse. It's customized just for you. That's why this whole "all narcissists beg you back, all narcissists discard you"—that's not all narcissists. They customize for you. They hit your triggers and your abandonment wounds and what is going to, if that's what your wound is, they will come for you [00:12:00] with something that will hurt you specifically.Then the truth of the matter is we won't probably understand it all, nor should we want to, but the problem is that it worked with the young lady he was messing around with, it worked with the girlfriend, and I had no idea, I was clueless about it, and if I had not known more at the end, I would have been part of that, you know, dyad, triad, whatever number of people he had going at the same time.

He didn't change. It's just he was very good at giving the right scenario to the right person to keep that person on the line and on the hook. So the average number we set at the top was four to seven times. I know that's astonishing. People are like, "I can't believe that." But what I think people don't understand, maybe they're getting a better clue, is that because it's this confusing, this confusing, and that's why you really do believe that they are working.

I mean, mine was reading, highlighting books, going to [00:15:00] therapy, having me watch movies together to talk about, I mean, it looked like he was working. So when he came back, called treatment centers in front of me. I mean, it looked real. It looked real.

Lisa: Same.

Kerry: It's so confusing.

Lisa: And if you can't see through that, I think, you know, all the more reason, if you still feel confused, don't have that final conversation. Accept the best you're able, at least for now, that you're not going to get closure. Or, you know, tell yourself you'll get it later or something, but get yourself in a place where you're not open to one more conversation. Stay away. I've always felt like no contact is a catch-22, because if you're in a trauma bond, one of the best ways, the most effective ways, is to go no contact.

But if you're in a trauma bond, you feel like you're gonna die if you go no contact. So like, which comes first? Yep. Sadly, no contact is the best thing you can do. I'm not saying it's the one thing or it's the be-all end-all, but it definitely makes healing faster. And I wouldn't say fast, but I think that not having that voice in—you're only dealing with [00:16:00] your own voice and your own self-doubt.

Have that conversation with yourself, with a friend, with a coach, with a therapist, somebody. Get that thought going because that's the list of, let's say, your vulnerabilities. This is what I need to strengthen so that I don't continue to go back. I believe his words. Okay, how can I shift and just start looking at his actions?

Kerry: I agree. I think that we have to have so much self-compassion and they don't. They're not. And they're really like pouring it on. And I know the gaslighting and the abuse gets worse and the risk of danger goes up. But if you can do the opposite, if you can see this as you practicing, not you failing.

I mean, I know I've shared this before and I just really love it, but there was a journalist who put Thomas Edison on the spot and said—so he [00:19:00] found a thousand different ways to fail making a light bulb. Goes, "No, I didn't. I found a thousand different ways that light bulbs don't work." That's the way we need to view it.

We need to not own the blame. We need to not own the shame and see this as no. I now know a way that it didn't work, so now I'm going to look for a different way. Maybe you didn't go no contact before, maybe you need to think about doing that this time. Maybe you need a different support system in your life.

Maybe you didn't have the right people around to really cheerlead you on. Maybe you weren't ready. Maybe you really just weren't ready and weren't convinced it was over. I mean, that's where I was at. I mean, as much as I'd tell people and tell the public, yeah, I wanted the company back. I'll tell you honestly, Lisa, I was still in love with the guy.

I wasn't really ready for it to be over. I knew that. I mean, I had people been working on me for more than a year, trying to like, just say no, just set a boundary. Like I wasn't ready. I just wasn't right. And it's okay not to be ready. There's nothing wrong with that. This is love we're talking about.

Lisa: Yeah, it's complicated, but it's you know, what is the expression? Progress, not perfection, or practice makes [00:20:00] perfect. We're happy to tell kids and other people, like, keep trying. But when it's ourselves, we're like, "You stupid woman, what's wrong with you?" But it's not about intelligence. It's not about strength. I mean, there's a lot of chemical stuff going on.There's addiction like feelings going on. If it's a trauma bond, I know it's not true for everyone, but when it is, there's so many feelings. It's just—if your friend was like, "Man, I'm really struggling," you wouldn't be like, "Well, suck it up, Sally." You just wouldn't say that. So why to yourself?

Kerry: And I think that that's the other thing is to see that this is a sign of persistence and perseverance and that all is speaks to your character and it speaks to the fact that you're a committed person who has integrity and this is gonna take some work. It does take work. It really does. I mean, like you said, there's so many pieces to this.

It's complicated. And I do agree that when we first get out, I had never felt more disoriented and discombobulated. I was in agonizing pain. I mean, agonizing, and I poured through social media, I poured through the backups of his phone, I did everything that I [00:21:00] could to sort of try to keep the connection.

And I was writing about it and that writing about it was another way for me to keep the connection. Really. I mean, if you want to think about it that way, but I didn't beat myself up for that. And I see a lot of people get super critical. Like there's a right way to do this. No, there's not. There's your way. It's going to be messy as hell, but it's going to be your way.

Lisa: There's no fast way to—

Kerry: No, there's no fast way.

Lisa: I swear. "What's the fastest way to break a trauma bond?" And I'm like, uh, let's back up. Let's back up. I hear you. I mean, I'm with you on the desire. Like, of course you want the fastest way. If I, if I had that trick, I swear, I'd just give it away for free. I would want us all—

Kerry: We'd be there. Right.

Lisa: But I would want people to have the fastest way. I will say the fastest way, which is not fast, is focusing. That's it. It's find the issues, find the vulnerabilities, work through them. If you have the privilege of coaching or therapy, do it. Get yourself into support groups, go on retreats, like do what you need to do to heal and learn about yourself.

Learn what got you here. [00:22:00] Try. Just keep and keep at it. Don't give up. Don't be hard on yourself.

Kerry: And know that there's going to be three steps forward, two steps back days. Sometimes it'll be actually two steps forwards and three steps back days. You're gonna have those days as well. I certainly did, you did, we all do. Yeah. I see so many victims take an all or nothing attitude. It's like, "I did really bad today. I'm bad. It's done."

Lisa: Yeah, "I keep going back. I can never leave him." Keep going. It's like chutes and ladders. It's a game of chutes and ladders. You're up and then you're down, and then you're up, you might win in the end, just wait, just, you'll get there.

Kerry: It really is like chutes and ladders, you're right. I mean, you think you're getting ahead, and you think you're almost made it to the top of the board, and you hit that slide that takes you all the way to the bottom. But you just keep working at it. And every time that you do that, you're going to get further.

You're going to learn some things. You're going to learn more about yourself. You're going to get stronger. You're going to discover new aspects of yourself. You're going to know what doesn't work. Just like Edison said, "No, I know a thousand different ways it doesn't work." You're going to learn what doesn't work.

Lisa: Yeah.

Kerry: Because here's the thing, you really want to synthesize it [00:23:00] down to the essential core, Lisa. This is about you. This is about me. This is about you, your value, your humanity. You is a person, your worth, and you're worth it. You're worth way more than that toxic person's place of value on that, which is never anything.

Years ago, like I said, they treat you like you're a nugget of gold, but the whole time, in their opinion, you've been nothing more than a piece of shit. You're worth more. That's why you're worth this fight.

Lisa: Do it for you.

Kerry: Exactly. Exactly. And if it takes seven times, it takes 70 times, who cares? You're worth it.

You're worth it. So we've had fan mail, Lisa, and we promised we're going to get better at this. And we had several that actually came in today. One is a counselor from Texas said that a staggering amount of her practice has been people who've been married to some form of a cluster B personality disorder. And that she really appreciated the podcast and just made a point of emphasizing the degree that narcissists and toxic [00:24:00] people have enough empathy to show up the way that we want in order to manipulate us and exploit us into getting what they want. And I just really appreciated that. So thank you so much for Debbie from Houston letting us know that because, yeah, that's what we say here all the time.

I really appreciate that. Another wanted to know if this is a real outlet for support, and this is from Tulsa, Oklahoma. So would you address that again? Because I feel bad when people think this is a live line, but it isn't. So I wonder.

Lisa: Yeah. So people can send us comments and questions, and we're not able to respond in the context of, you know, a text response, but we are able to respond here.

But in terms of real support, there's lots of different options, even just that, that Dr. Kerry and I offer. So we have a Toxic-Free Relationship Club that you can join and you get 24/7 support. And depending on the level, you get group coaching, a monthly book club, all kinds of things, one-on-one sessions.

With all the levels, you get tons of support. We [00:25:00] also have different group coaching program offerings, such as Healing Strong, which is geared more towards people who are already out, or the Trauma Bond Recovery group coaching, which is geared towards people who are in or out of a relationship, but actively trauma bonded.

And we also have in-person retreats that we host, and the next one is coming up in February in Mexico, and then we have another one in October in Florida, and that's at wellnessrecoveryretreats.com. So there's lots of different options. You can also work with me one-on-one on a private basis. But there's also like free Facebook groups and lots of different options for people to really get that personalized support, whatever it is that you need.

Kerry: Right. Yeah. Thank you for that. So we're going to hop over to the podcast extra and Lisa, let's talk about how to practically get more ready to leave based upon a previous effort that didn't take. So let's talk about that. So people can see the way to do this if they're feeling like they're just are failing at this so badly. So thank you so much for this great topic. I really appreciate it. [00:26:00]

Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube? Find me at Kerry McAvoy, PhD. And whether you're in or out, considering leaving or have left a narcissistic relationship, find community support at my toxic-free relationship club. You can learn about this resource as well as others at KerryMcAvoy.com. And I'll see you back here next week.