Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse
Confused by your relationship? Constantly second-guessing yourself, walking on eggshells, or feeling emotionally drained? Whether you’re still in the chaos or finding your footing after leaving, this podcast is your lifeline.
Join mental health experts Dr. Kerry McAvoy and Lisa Sonni as they uncover the hidden dynamics of toxic relationships. From understanding destructive personalities and their manipulative tactics to exploring the stages of abuse and how to rebuild after the damage, you’ll gain the clarity and tools needed to break free and heal.
If you’re ready to reclaim your self-worth and discover the path to emotional freedom, hit play and start your recovery journey today.
Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse
The Little Known Reasons Why Love-Bombing Works Every Time: Interview with Nadine Macaluso, Ex-Wife of the Wolf of Wall Street
There are powerful psychological reasons why love bombing works nearly every time.
In this episode, Dr. Nadine Macaluso, the ex-wife of the Wolf of Wall Street shares what she’s uncovered about why we fall so easily spellbound for a toxic or narcissistic individual.
What questions you have asked Dr. Nae about the movie, The Wolf of Wall Street? Find out ours when you subscribe to the Podcast Extra Substack newsletter. Unlock access here: http://substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse
To learn more about Dr. Nadine Macaluso (often known to as Dr. Nae), please visit: https://drnae.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drnaelmft
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/therealdrnadine/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheRealDrNadine
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/therealdrnadine/
FREE GIFT FOR LISTENERS: Download the First Chapter of Dr. Nae’s new book, Run Like Hell: A Therapist’s Guide to Recognizing, Escaping, and Healing from Trauma Bonds: https://drnae.com/giveaway-book/
Dr. Nae’s Book:
Run Like Hell: A Therapist Guide to Recognizing, Escaping, and Healing from Trauma Bonds: https://amzn.to/3PodpkA
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Stay in Touch with Us!
Kerry McAvoy, PhD
Youtube - https://youtube.com/kerrymcavoyphd
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Lisa Sonni
Youtube - https://youtube.com/@strongerthanbefore
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Tiktok - https://www.tiktok.com/@_stronger_than_before
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More About Us!
Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D.
Dr. Kerry, a retired psychologist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships and deconstructing narcissism. Her blogs have been featured in Mamami, YourTango, Scary Mommy, and The Good Men Project. In Love You More, Dr. McAvoy gives an uncensored glimpse into her survival of narcissistic abuse, and her workbook, First Steps to Leaving a Narcissist, helps victims break free from the confusion common in abusive relationships. She hosts the Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse podcast and offers trauma-related advice on social media.
Lisa Sonni
Lisa Sonni is a certified Life
We're spilling ALL the tea on wedding drama, horror stories & the craziness of planning!
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00:00:04:11 - 00:00:26:03
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Why do we get taken in by love bombing? The answer that question. We're being joined by Doctor Nadine Macaluso, the ex-wife of the Wolf of Wall Street. She recently wrote a book called Run Like Hell: A Therapist Guide to Recognizing, Escaping, and Healing from Trauma Bonds. And she's going to explain how we get taken in and fooled by toxic people.
00:00:26:05 - 00:00:50:11
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I'm so thrilled to have you here, doctor Nae. Thank you so much. there's a lot of interest around you, your life, your story, and then you have this new book that's come out about love bombing in the trauma bond. The initial part of the relationship. So let's first of all, just define it. our audience knows what this is, but I'd love to hear from your perspective how you see the trauma bond develop and the role love bombing plays in that development.
00:00:50:13 - 00:01:11:10
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
So a trauma bonds, is any toxic, dysfunctional relationship between two emotionally attached people. so it can be between lovers. That's the way I write about it. It can be between parent and child. between a boss and employee. But what makes it different is that one of the people in the trauma bond wants to have power and control over the other,
00:01:11:12 - 00:01:28:22
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
that's their main goal is to have power and control over their lover. so what happens is if you're not that type of person and you don't see the world through that lens, and you go into the relationship just simply to love and connect and build a future with someone, that can be very shocking.
00:01:29:00 - 00:01:31:19
Lisa Sonni
What do you think that people get wrong about love bombing?
00:01:31:23 - 00:01:57:09
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Love bombing, first of all, it feels great. it feels great for somebody to be obsessed with you for somebody to want to call you all the time, for somebody to adore you, to promise you a future, to say that, you're their soulmate. But what I say is that if it feels too good to be true, it probably is, because you're not somebody’s soulmate in two weeks. And healthy love doesn't mean that you have to be consumed and they have to consume you.
00:01:57:11 - 00:02:17:19
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
So it can be very tricky because I think we are wired for connection. And then all the oxytocin and the dopamine get flowing and we're like, “Oh, we feel understood. We feel loved,” but we don't really know that love bombing is a manipulation. It is a manipulative tactic to get us into a trance, to get us to fall for that person.
00:02:17:21 - 00:02:31:01
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I can already hear some people say, yeah, but I met my partner and I knew that they were the one within four days. And we've been together forever. And it's really great. So is there a difference between sometimes those just incredible matches, What would you say to that individual.
00:02:31:04 - 00:02:57:10
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Yes, some people can fall in love and meet and it can last. But again, with a pathological person and the love bombing is a manipulation. So it's all about what's the intention behind the behavior. Yeah. Some people can give you flowers that can feel good and you're like, I met my person. But that's different than falling for a pathological person that has the intention to manipulate you with love bombing, to suck you in, to hook you in.
00:02:57:14 - 00:02:59:19
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
So then they can have more control over you.
00:03:00:00 - 00:03:12:12
Lisa Sonni
You know what I find that makes that so hard is that you're talking about intention. I say this all the time and people are like but how do you see intention. So how do you discern the difference between love bombing and sweeping romance that's going to last forever?
00:03:12:12 - 00:03:40:13
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
what will happen is you will see little tidbits come out of the need for control, Because if somebody has to call you ten times a day and you think it's about attention right now, I'm going to tell you it's about control. They want to know where you are. They want to keep track of you. And, also what you'll realize is that when somebody just wants to give for the sake of giving, they're going to give without strings attached.
00:03:40:17 - 00:03:54:13
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
But when somebody gives you so much in their love bombing and you do one thing that they don't like, it's like. But I do all that for you. Well, then No, but did you do all that for me out of the goodness of your heart? Because you love me? Because you wanted to control me.
00:03:54:18 - 00:04:11:06
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
You know, one thing that you talk about in your book and I talk about it as well as mind mapping, I love that describe mind mapping, because I think that's a critical piece in that presentation of perfection of, “Oh my goodness, I've met this person who gets me. We don't realize that they've actually mapped us.”
00:04:11:07 - 00:04:33:20
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
they'll mirror you, right? So when you're a child, a parent mirrors their child. So the child feels understood. Right. we know that mirroring, is a really important part of connection. you love sushi. I love sushi, you love tennis, I love tennis. so they want you to feel like you're two peas in a pod that you're exactly alike. But we know we don't have to be exactly alike for love to work.
00:04:34:02 - 00:04:55:13
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
In fact, love is about giving someone the space to be who they are, and they're also mind mapping you in that they want to understand your vulnerability. I give the example of a young woman who didn't have a good father, a father who abandoned them, and then they know that about you. And then the second you don't do something they want, they abandon you to hit that wound.
00:04:55:16 - 00:04:59:16
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
So what can happen two ways, marrying and then preying on your vulnerability.
00:04:59:19 - 00:05:10:12
Lisa Sonni
Some people think like, oh, my abuser is not smart enough to do that? it's not about intelligence. I know that, but what do you say to someone who's sort of. “Mine can't be that strategic. He wouldn't be able to do that.”
00:05:10:12 - 00:05:32:09
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Maybe that is true on some level. Some of what they do could be unconscious because let's say if they were very dominated as children, they don't really understand that they made a decision to vow never to be dominated again. They might not be that conscious of it. That is true. But, if you don't think they're strategic, try and set a boundary with them
00:05:32:11 - 00:05:51:00
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I think they test I saw in my relationship. Both Lisa and I are survivors as well. But early in the relationship I saw there was subtle testing that I didn't know. It appeared almost like chivalry, like charm gentleman behavior. But do you agree that there is this testing to see if this person is compliant enough?
00:05:51:02 - 00:06:18:20
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Yes. I completely believe that there is testing. Again, is it conscious, unconscious? I mean, we could argue that all day, but I know as I write about in my book that I score very high in agreeableness, which means that I'm a very compromising individual. I'm always trying to see the other person's side or be empathetic. So I do believe that my ex totally tested that, and whenever I did try to set a boundary, it got plowed through.
00:06:19:01 - 00:06:31:02
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Again, I didn't know about boundaries back then and I was like, okay, let me just be cooperative. Let me also work with him on it. But yes, I do agree. Initially they're always testing you to see if you can be manipulated.
00:06:31:02 - 00:06:52:08
Lisa Sonni
That’s a real problem in that stage. I don't think people really realize that they're being conditioned and groomed and tested. You wouldn't think that. That's not how we think. how we see the world. We think nobody would be that awful or that strategic. But what is going through the mind of this pathological lover? what's happening in their mind as they meet the person?
00:06:52:11 - 00:07:17:10
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
That’s the hard part. They are intentionally being manipulative. Love bombing is all manipulative strategy, Because they want you to fall madly in love with them. so if you look at that personality they want power and control over you. So they're going to figure out ways to do it. They're going to condition you by being threatening and dominating. Fear is a great way to control somebody.
00:07:17:14 - 00:07:40:16
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
They are going to manipulate you by lying to your face. They're going to manipulate you by presenting to you what they think that you want. know, especially like somebody like my ex who was incredibly bright, He definitely knew that this was a way to manipulate me. So I would be easier and easier and easier and easier to control until I lost my sense self.
00:07:40:18 - 00:08:01:07
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I saw a sample of that. I'm getting ready for something where I had to go through an archive of my documents and this is how it subtle it was we were having a text conversation. I shared something vulnerable and he said I had tacos for lunch. shift was so dramatic that it felt like an abandonment. And I remember in that moment felt left hanging. like he left the room.
00:08:01:07 - 00:08:14:03
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And a lot of people end up thinking they can't be really that sophisticated and why what's the motivation for all of this? What do you think's going on. do you think they know that they're intimately of wind, or do you think that they're that calculating.
00:08:14:06 - 00:08:35:23
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
yes. And I'm going to say one thing to what you just said. You can't have needs. So that's another sign, right? If you express a need for get needs. But this is what I say. A pathological lover will use, harm, exploit and betray you or anybody to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure and status—that simple.
00:08:36:00 - 00:08:39:09
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Wow. Say that again. Because that's. Yeah. That's powerful.
00:08:39:10 - 00:08:57:18
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
A pathological lover will use harm., exploit, and betray you or anybody, right? Their mother. Their mother, by the way. Not just their lover, their children to get their needs met for money, power or pleasure and status. And that's what's driving the behavior.
00:08:57:18 - 00:09:28:04
Lisa Sonni
The drivers are so interesting because I hear so many people sort of, in disbelief. How could that be? And again, it's so far removed from how we operate, how we see relationships, see people that we wouldn't operate under those same reasons, so it seems crazy, but I think when you look back and you sort of tie a lot of their behavior into knowing that it's control often and status and all of these things that make them feel superior. it can be really eye opening, but many people really struggle with that.
00:09:28:09 - 00:09:51:16
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
If you take those two sentences with the fact that they feel entitled and don't have a moral compass, then anything goes, really, then anything goes. And when I say that to the women I work with, I often say, you know, I'm going to say something that's really painful, and I'm not saying it to hurt you, but the love bombing in the good time was a manipulation. Yeah. Because I know it's painful to hear that, you know, and I'm not looking to hurt them.
00:09:51:16 - 00:09:54:15
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
But that's how you get rid of the cognitive dissonance.
00:09:54:15 - 00:10:13:15
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I just get so weary of victims being attacked because what we're talking about today, and I love the fact that we've been focusing on the grooming and on the one that does the grooming, because usually we look at why is a victim so vulnerable. Why do you think we just have this focus, this preoccupation with maligning victims for being victimized?
00:10:13:19 - 00:10:34:00
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
You know, I mean, I think because we live in a patriarchy, you know, and, patriarchy means that we focus on a hierarchy, and I think that it's easier to attack the victim. I mean, that's the whole reason I wrote my book was to destigmatize the victim's perspective. Because I've been there and I know and I've worked with so many people.
00:10:34:02 - 00:10:53:08
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
So it's really a pet peeve of mine. But yeah, because we always ask, why does she stay? and also, if you think about it, to someone who's not living in it, they really don't get it. they don't get the complex psychological dynamics that you're dealing with. So they're just like, oh, there must be something wrong with you. I just think they just fully don't get it.
00:10:53:08 - 00:11:10:04
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
And I mean, listen, it took me years of schooling, writing a book, getting my doctorate, like living it. And I finally get it. And I'm going to be 57 on Christmas Eve, because we've also described love in such different terms, right. In the Zeitgeist
00:11:10:10 - 00:11:13:16
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Yeah. So what do you see as the two different terms that we use to describe love.
00:11:13:17 - 00:11:34:10
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
We have the myth of romantic love, right? Some day your prince is going to come and save you and rescue you, and all your problems are going to go away, And that's why the Cinderella story ends at midnight. Because we never know what happens to Cinderella because her life is not great. I bed locked in the castle in the gilded cage, with the prince,
00:11:34:11 - 00:11:39:00
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
so we've been this myth of romantic love. That's not reality.
00:11:39:03 - 00:12:00:01
Lisa Sonni
It seems like reality for so many people in the beginning. And sort of like you said, if it seems too good to be true, it probably is. But I think people subscribe to that idea that your prince is going to come and that when you meet him, it will feel like “Fireworks and amazing, and Oh this connection,” not realizing that that was manufactured.
00:12:00:05 - 00:12:19:14
Lisa Sonni
And then there's this switch. And to me, this is where that positive intermittent reinforcement really starts to kick in. And that is not talked about enough to me as a tactic. So I will always say that the good exists to facilitate the bad. People don't realize, he's nice to me sometimes. Correct? He is correct. And that serves a purpose.
00:12:19:17 - 00:12:25:03
Lisa Sonni
What do you think that purpose is? What are they really trying to accomplish there that oscillation of behavior?
00:12:25:04 - 00:12:52:13
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
listen, it's a behavioral, psychological tactic. And hope is the hook and a trauma bond. you have the initial grooming and the love bombing, which really gets impounded into the individual. but then the mask falls, as we know, and then the cruelty and the controlling and the abusive behavior comes. And then if they just drop a little bit of the good positive reinforcement, the reward, like, “Oh, no, no, that person is in there.
00:12:52:15 - 00:13:16:10
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
No, this was just a one off that didn't really matter. That didn't really happen.” Right. So we rationalize, deny, minimize. But then of course, they get abusive again and then they just keep dropping those hooks. And when I wrote my book, I read this research and it's in my book that intermittent reinforcement when animal trainers use it, it bonds the animal 230% more to them than straight kindness.
00:13:16:12 - 00:13:24:14
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Intermittent reinforcement works because it's not a cycle. We don't know when it's going to happen. It happens out of the blue. And, it keeps us hooked.
00:13:24:14 - 00:13:46:19
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And we're so convinced in that moment that the person that we met in the beginning is the real person. Then we then explain it as a state instead of a trait. We don't say, this is a cruel person. We say, oh, they had a bad day or work was awful. What happens inside of us that makes us lean into the explanation that we sometimes even just give to ourselves.
00:13:46:19 - 00:13:52:06
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
They don't always give it to us, help us understand why we're so vulnerable to that process.
00:13:52:12 - 00:14:11:11
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
we're social beings and we're wired for love and connection, a baby can't survive without the mother. it's okay to be in a dyad. And it is fun and beautiful when it's a healthy dyad. And I think we're just so longing for that. And they did show us that. Right? So it's not like it's not there. It is. There
00:14:11:11 - 00:14:24:00
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
and we have experienced it. So I just think it's a natural human thing to long to connect and to long to, to feel merged with another person. But that's just the wrong person. doing it with.
00:14:24:02 - 00:14:42:19
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, but it is really hard to see that, you know, and I think the cognitive dissonance that we're experiencing about they are good and bad. They're the pain, the comfort, the knife, the Band-Aid. They're everything to us. You said something really powerful about trauma. Bonds are built on hope. Hoping that they're that person. Hoping that you get that version back.
00:14:42:23 - 00:14:48:00
Lisa Sonni
What do you think people can really do to sort of step away from that belief and just really see things clearly?
00:14:48:03 - 00:15:16:17
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Yeah. And that's what goes back to breaking the cognitive dissonance is, they're not Romeo and Dirty John. They are just one pathological perpetrator. And like we are saying, the love bombing, the kindness, that's all the manipulation. And so just repeating that to them over and over and over again and also saying it's not your fault that you were tricked. It's your responsibility to heal. It's not your fault that you were tricked by a con artist,
00:15:16:17 - 00:15:28:02
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
and that's a real con artist that would do that to you. And you have to see them as one pathological person. if a person can have radical acceptance around that, which I know is very painful, they can really start to heal.
00:15:28:05 - 00:15:39:00
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
So if we're in that love bombing stage, how do we start to wake up? If you were to replay your life and go back and spin it back to that stage, what would you say to that young lady who met him,
00:15:39:00 - 00:16:02:21
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
first of all, realize the extremity of it, right? Because it's the extremity of the two experiences that create the extreme feelings inside of us. But that, you know, like we were talking about how to have discernment, set a boundary, have a value, try to really enforce that boundary and see what happens if someone goes and says, it's my way or the highway, it's a problem
00:16:02:21 - 00:16:24:18
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
that's not consistent with being loving and kind, right? Also, as you said, Dr. Kerry, have a need to be able to express your needs, be vulnerable, and see what happens. You know, buying somebody's gift is different than meeting their emotional needs. those are two things. I know for me I just overlooked. And I just was like, oh, he just loves me so much.
00:16:24:18 - 00:16:38:19
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
That's why I can set a boundary. Or, you know, maybe I'm just too needy or, too vulnerable and maybe it's too much for him. Maybe he can't be that deep. Right? But those are two really good ways to discern if the kindness is real.
00:16:38:23 - 00:16:54:23
Lisa Sonni
What you described, he goes ballistic or pushes back or gets angry, what about when it's way more covert than that? I found in the beginning of mine, he met all of my needs, or I'm sure he didn't. But I'm saying that it felt as though he met all of my needs. I wouldn't have been able to recognize that.
00:16:54:23 - 00:17:03:18
Lisa Sonni
I would have thought if I set a boundary, if I even thought like that, which I didn't, he would have agreed to it. He would have gone with it, and it wouldn't really have had happened until later.
00:17:03:21 - 00:17:27:02
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Well, yeah. So he was. Yeah. Well, and listen, a lot of times with a covert person, that's what makes them trickier. You know, mine was so grandiose. It was so obvious. Right. So in a way, he was a lot easier. with a more covert person, because they're not as extreme in their behavior. I think you have to also really connect to what's happening inside of you, not in your head. what's happening between your neck and your pelvic floor,
00:17:27:05 - 00:17:47:06
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
like what is happening with you when you're with this person? Are you having intuitions of this doesn't feel right. Something feels off. Because they're not as extreme in their behavior. So really more like connecting with yourself and trusting yourself. You know, we haven't taught women to trust themselves,
00:17:47:06 - 00:18:03:09
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I had never felt my gut react as intensely as it was. It was like even predicting things like you would tell me things and it was dead on accurate. was like, how do you know that? I don't know how I know that. And then I'd find out it was accurate, but I didn't trust it. what happens to us that we learned not to listen to that? Well,
00:18:03:09 - 00:18:23:08
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
I mean, I think in general, you know, I mean, we don't really tell women, have a voice, speak your truth, be authentic, connect to your body, trust yourself. Right. These are all messages that we're not really given. again, because I think a lot of it is living in a patriarchy. And, I just think it's part of the messages that we're given,
00:18:23:08 - 00:18:40:23
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
but like you say, when my ex asked me to marry him, I said, yes. And my gut literally said, oh, I was 23. I don't forget it. My gut what I said, yes, I took the five carat diamond and my gut went, oh. And I was just like, oh, how does that know? What does that know? What does that
00:18:40:23 - 00:18:43:12
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
know? I just totally dismissed myself.
00:18:43:15 - 00:18:49:06
Lisa Sonni
What do you think made you do that or what did you replace that gut feeling with? How did you resolve that?
00:18:49:09 - 00:19:14:14
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Oh, I think for me at 22 years old, I really was not in my own power. And I was very attached to his supposed power and like latching on to that. And so I was just like, he's wealthy These cute. He's smart, he's funny, he's fantastic. Like, that's more important than what you're really deeply feeling, you know. And so I was much more, I think, attached to his power than my power at that point.
00:19:14:16 - 00:19:22:16
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Describe, Because I think some people don't actually know what a gut instinct feels like. Describe for you or what you hear your clients say that it feels like to them.
00:19:22:21 - 00:19:45:00
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Yeah, for me, what happens, It's almost like a click. But inside my viscera, something inside of me moves. And now I know as a somatic psychotherapist, like to really listen to the body more because our ego and our defenses are just filled, in our thoughts. And so just really paying attention. This is where to me, the authentic self lives.
00:19:45:02 - 00:19:56:17
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
And so really getting much more in tune with what's happening inside in your internal world, in your body, not in the brain. You know, we've kind of reified the brain and thoughts. But going back to the body,
00:19:56:21 - 00:20:12:05
Lisa Sonni
women are not taught that. I so agree with you. I think that we as women especially, we get these mixed messages of, “Follow your gut and don't be too hard on him and don't be so critical and lower your standards.” But also you should be a human lie detector who knows exactly what he's thinking at the same time.
00:20:12:05 - 00:20:15:15
Lisa Sonni
And how dare you not know there's something wrong with you for not knowing.
00:20:15:15 - 00:20:16:06
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Yeah,
00:20:16:06 - 00:20:18:07
Lisa Sonni
imagine that 23 years old. Wow.
00:20:18:11 - 00:20:34:21
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Oh, yeah. that I was so clueless. There was no words to describe my cluelessness. But. Yeah. And listen, when you think about our bodies, what they're capable of, I mean, they're capable of giving life to another being. It's a pretty strong container we have here.
00:20:34:23 - 00:20:53:22
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Yeah, I think we get caught up in trying to determine if someone's lying which we get. The majority of the time. I've heard recently that the research on that is we're roughly 50% wrong. In other words, just flip a coin. We're going to be as accurate as a coin toss. but I have found that my gut was accurate 100% of the time.
00:20:54:00 - 00:21:09:21
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
And you're right. It came in lots of different signals. It wasn't necessarily always fear. Sometimes it was just like disbelief. Sometimes I just knew something like that click. but had not learned to listen to that. And I know that if I had, I would have run faster. I've would’ve gotten away from the situation.
00:21:10:01 - 00:21:27:08
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Yeah. And was a time in my life when I was 28 years old, and this might be a good way to Explain it. My ex actually had abused me and everything, and he finally got sober and we were having sushi one night. And I said to him, you know, the abuse, that drug addiction, it really hurt. It was really hard. It goes wasn't that bad.
00:21:27:10 - 00:21:46:12
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
And now I didn't know the word callousness. I didn't know it inside my gut. went close. Done. And I couldn't give you words back then. I didn't know what it meant, but my body knew. Yeah. This person. Yeah. There's no remorse. There's no empathy. There's no compassion here, Nadine. No. Yeah, yeah.
00:21:46:18 - 00:22:08:00
Lisa Sonni
That's very, I could use the word obvious, but sort of it's like you said, more grandiose, more overt. It's clear the covert ones are so much harder. Because “I know, I know, it was so bad I treated you awful.” But then there's no change to their behavior, or it doesn't stick. If there is change. But I think that's really hard to see that again, they're oscillating between kind and horrible.
00:22:08:07 - 00:22:17:11
Lisa Sonni
still were so attached to that first person that we met. We really think that that's the real person. It's so hard to see the difference, but these are great tips.
00:22:17:14 - 00:22:26:13
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Yeah, yeah, but words not matching actions is huge, right? I mean, right. I would say we're in the wrong the show me we're in the show me phase. We're not in the tell me phase.
00:22:26:18 - 00:22:39:03
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
exactly. Well, this has really been wonderful. Thank you so much for this interview today. Where can people find you? And then we're going to jump over to the podcast extra. But I want to first just how can people find you if they'd like to learn more about you or connect with you direct?
00:22:39:08 - 00:22:57:04
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Yeah, sure. go to my website, DrNae.com I have tons of free assessments, trauma bond assessment, pathological lover assessment. You could always find me on Instagram, @therealdrnadine Or you know, who knows of TikTok. So we were down, but, @DrNaeLMFT Well,
00:22:57:05 - 00:23:16:18
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
I appreciate that so much. So we're going to hop over to the podcast extra, and we're going to talk about The Wolf of Wall Street. Because I know people are really excited to have questions about it. And I know I have some questions, even just about what it felt like to have that movie come out. So we're going to hop over and ask you, what I'm sure most people want to know or also how it felt to have people want to know this stuff.
00:23:16:18 - 00:23:30:00
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
But thank you so much for being on with us today. It's just been a real pleasure meeting you, and I'm thrilled that you're in this realm, working with this and helping survivors. I think the fact that you've done that, made that flip is just really frickin amazing.
00:23:30:05 - 00:23:33:22
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.
00:23:35:00 - 00:24:00:14
Dr. Kerry McAvoy
Well, that's a wrap for this week's episode. Are you following me on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube? Find me at KerryMcAvoy, PhD. And whether you're in, consider leaving or have left a narcissistic relationship. Find community support at my toxic free Relationship club. You can learn about this resource as well as others at KerryMcAvoyPhD.com, and I'll see you back here next week.
